Geert Wilders Poll Victory [Archive]

maven

06-08-2009, 10:34 AM

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/wilders-strikes-first-blow-for-european-extremists-1698157.html

-Wilders strikes first blow for European extremists-
By Claire Soares and John Lichfield in Paris

Geert Wilders' Freedom Party won 17 per cent of the vote in the European elections in the Netherlands.

The first killer punch of the European election campaign was struck yesterday by the maverick Dutch politician, Geert Wilders, who scooped 17 per cent of the vote and almost a fifth of his country's seats in the European Parliament running on a populist, anti-immigrant, law and order agenda.

The Dutch result, released two days early – before most Europeans had even cast their votes – sent jitters around a continent fearful that a miserably low turnout will help extremists on both the left and right.

Mr Wilders, refused access to Britain as a rabble-rouser earlier this year, has perfected a form of tolerant intolerance with his Freedom Party and its smartly-suited, middle-class, anti-Islamic and "pro-liberal" values. While the Christian Democrats of Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende managed to keep hold of the largest share of the votes (albeit with the loss of two seats and a mere three-point lead), the Freedom Party romped home in second.

The platinum-blond maverick shot to international prominence for branding the Koran a "fascist book" and releasing a film, Fitna, which depicted Islam as inherently violent. "This is fantastic, a great day for the people who crave another Netherlands, another Europe," declared a triumphant Mr Wilders who won four of the 25 seats up fro grabs. Having beaten the Labour party, the other main bloc in the Prime Minister's coalition, into third place, he claimed the government no longer had a mandate. "The cabinet should step down, the sooner the better," he told Dutch television, although analysts said that was wishful thinking.

Achihud

06-08-2009, 12:03 PM

bararallu

06-08-2009, 12:23 PM

hat's why Wilders wants to see the Dutch part of Belgium corporated into the Netherlands.

Any recent Belgian referendum on that end?

Achihud

06-08-2009, 12:49 PM

Any recent Belgian referendum on that end? No, at first glance it is a relative far fetched solution but the idea can be a lever. Only Vlaams Belang is openly sympathetic to Wilders' suggestion. However, it can change rapidly because the ongoing shift towards rightist parties has everything to do with the growing discontent about the lack in progress (non whatsoever) regarding further changes in the constitution. Duth people don't vote left, anything left anymore. Socialist party is on the rebound, other left alternatives are close to electorale dead.

Walloon situation, socialist party PS is still the biggest party, nothing new there despite many scandals over the past years. It's like the walloon people only vote in fear for what is happening on the other side of Brussels.

bararallu

06-08-2009, 12:51 PM

I figure if the economy is growing astronomically there will be a push otherwise not so much. In the UK that seems to be the deal with devolution. Canada a bit more complicated.

takeo

06-08-2009, 06:47 PM

The problem is when the other parties' response is a cordon sanitaire, you can't get into the government, not even with 35%. Eventually people will lose faith and vote for alternative rightist parties that don't focus on islam.

Yesterday it has happened to Vlaams Belang which fell back to where they were in 2004. The loss of votes went to two new players, LDD (Dedecker who targets traditional liberal party and is a spin off) and NVA (De Wever and his New Flemish Alliance which is closest to VB but leaves topics such as islam out of its program). Together they have roughly 40% of the votes.

But Belgium is relative different because of the tension between north and south, the Netherlands doesn't have that problem. That's why Wilders wants to see the Dutch part of Belgium corporated into the Netherlands.

It will never happen, the Flemish don't like the Dutch and they have, except their language(and even the language is different, for example Dutch people are always subtitled on flemish television), little in common.
People didn't vote anymore for VB because they get tired of their hatemongering against muslims, non-catholic flemish foreigners in general, Frenchspeaking people, entry of Turkey in the EU, etc. Instead they voted for moderate nationalists and moderate christian-democrats. In the frenshspeaking part people mostly voted for socialists and leftist ecologists.

Wilders is a populist with very unrealistic demands. As the party of Fortuyn and other populist rightists they will fade once people really get to know them better, as happened in France with le Pen, in austria with Haider, etc. . History repeats itself... Italy is the exception because in Italy Berlusconi owns much of the media, both the private media as public media are tightly controlled by his men.

takeo

06-08-2009, 06:56 PM

No, at first glance it is a relative far fetched solution but the idea can be a lever. Only Vlaams Belang is openly sympathetic to Wilders' suggestion. However, it can change rapidly because the ongoing shift towards rightist parties has everything to do with the growing discontent about the lack in progress (non whatsoever) regarding further changes in the constitution. Duth people don't vote left, anything left anymore. Socialist party is on the rebound, other left alternatives are close to electorale dead.

Walloon situation, socialist party PS is still the biggest party, nothing new there despite many scandals over the past years. It's like the walloon people only vote in fear for what is happening on the other side of Brussels.

There have been opinion polls on this subject, only 3 % of the Flemish would like to form a union with the Netherlands. (perhaps that's one of the reasons why people don't vote VB anymore)
About 30 percent would like to see an independant Flanders.
In Belgium the situation is different from the Netherlands. For example the christian-democrats, who won the latest regional elections, have a very center-left socio-economic program, and are supported mainly by their own labour-union, the other winners, the flemish separatists, are rather right-wing (altough many are more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, as is the other right-wing winner of the elections in Flanders Dedecker). Only VB is supporting Israel, but because of their nazist past not all Israel-supporters want to accept their embrace... (and of course if you talk in private with VB-sympathisers and militants, many are anti-foreigner in general, which includes Jews). In The Netherlands there is generally more sympathy towards Israel, both among the left and the right. The only Jew in Belgian politics as far as I know used to be the president of the socialist party. (Ertman) Also in the Netherlands the most Jews active in politics belong to the socialists. (maire of Amsterdam for example)

Rob

06-08-2009, 11:59 PM

Belgium is an artificial country and is a prime example of a failed state. Eventually Flanders and the Netherlands will be one state. A very large majority of the Netherlands supports this. And there also polls that show a majority amongst Flemish people for this. It also depends how this one Dutch state will look like. A very loose federation is most likely, and this is also what the majority of the Flemish people prefer. A state where the Netherlands will impose its will on Flanders of course will be rejected.
Of course the French speaking part is opposing this, because their economy is in a very bad situation and depends on bakshish from the Dutch speaking north.

Mediocrates

06-09-2009, 10:34 AM

The Jobbiks in Hugary got nearly 15% and they are straight up uncoated Nazis

http://ejpress.org/article/37098

And then they had a nice meeting with the BNP in Hungary

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6457752.ece

Achihud

06-09-2009, 01:01 PM

Belgium is an artificial country and is a prime example of a failed state.

Affirmative!

On the days of our royal family they have to fill the fences with schoolkids. No security is needed, it’s a non-event!
The worst thing that can happen over here is when some lost driver hunks from behind to speed up the parade.

People didn't vote anymore for VB because they get tired of their hatemongering against muslims, non-catholic flemish foreigners in general, Frenchspeaking people, entry of Turkey in the EU, etc.

Scratch, if you say so. Muslim immigration is just as much disliked today as it was when VB reached 30%.

People lost faith when their vote became devalued after foreigners received the same right. This caused the first deceptive little loss for VB but with a very important psychological effect as if VB reached a ceiling.
But it ain’t over, even with 20% they can get in the government one day because Dedecker doesn’t support the cordon, De Wever can be persuated (later) if he can let the Christian Democrats crash once more into the B-H-V wall.

To achieve its objectives VB is closer than ever if they don’t panic and stay the course.

Kenneth

06-09-2009, 01:13 PM

What will happen to my ugly little Charleroi airport, where they serve the big burger, will Wilders save it?

savvy

06-09-2009, 01:24 PM

Wilders is a courageous man, but the BNP is racist. The only reason people voted for them is because they're sick of coward politicians who won't stand up for the average person.

takeo

06-09-2009, 11:01 PM

Rob

Belgium is an artificial country and is a prime example of a failed state.

But one with one of the highest living standards on earth, certainly better than Israel, I would say even better than France and GB.

Eventually Flanders and the Netherlands will be one state. A very large majority of the Netherlands supports this.

really? that's new to me? any sources?

And there also polls that show a majority amongst Flemish people for this.

That's even more surprising, the last poll I saw showed only 3% support for this. Most Flemish I know woud rather join Israel or ireland than the Netherlands.

It also depends how this one Dutch state will look like. A very loose federation is most likely, and this is also what the majority of the Flemish people prefer. A state where the Netherlands will impose its will on Flanders of course will be rejected.
Of course the French speaking part is opposing this, because their economy is in a very bad situation and depends on bakshish from the Dutch speaking north.

depends, Frenchspeaking Brussels is the motor of the Belgian economy. Walloon is in a worse shape.

takeo

06-09-2009, 11:12 PM

Achihud

On the days of our royal family they have to fill the fences with schoolkids. No security is needed, it’s a non-event!
The worst thing that can happen over here is when some lost driver hunks from behind to speed up the parade.

the majority of Belgians still support the monarchy and Belgium, altough they are not very nationalistic or patriottic, especially compared to France.

Scratch, if you say so. Muslim immigration is just as much disliked today as it was when VB reached 30%.

I would say there's a change, many people now realise the migrants are going to stay. What people don't want is more immigration, not only from muslim or African countries but equally from Eastern Europe.

People lost faith when their vote became devalued after foreigners received the same right. This caused the first deceptive little loss for VB but with a very important psychological effect as if VB reached a ceiling.

I wouldn't say the loss of sunday was deceptive, it was very real, the party lost nearly half of its votes. Also, I don't understand how Jews can support fascists like those ones. Many of their supporters are neo-nazi's and have outspoken racist ideas, including antisemitic ones. (especially in Antwerp)

But it ain’t over, even with 20% they can get in the government one day because Dedecker doesn’t support the cordon, De Wever can be persuated (later) if he can let the Christian Democrats crash once more into the B-H-V wall.

This is extremely unlikely, especially now that they have lost the elections. The big winner of the elections are the center christian-democrats, they will NEVER form a government with VB, and Dedecker himself is very controversial and only received 8% of the votes. (besides I don't think Dedecker is good news for Israel-supporters he's the most outspoken supporter of the palestinian cause in Belgian politics, also Flemish nationalists NVA support the palestinian cause)

To achieve its objectives VB is closer than ever if they don’t panic and stay the course.

I would say the inverse, now that they lost the election big time their "momentum" is over.

takeo

06-09-2009, 11:16 PM

What will happen to my ugly little Charleroi airport, where they serve the big burger, will Wilders save it?

Ryanair made it into one of the best succes stories in Walloon. I agree Charleroi is very ugly, it must be one of the ugliest cities and airports in Western Europe. Once some walloon politician from Charleroi proposed to adhere Walloon to France. As a result a journalist from Le Monde had a look. He wrote: "sorry thanks, but no".

Wilders is a Dutch phenomenon, Belgians (and that includes flemish) coundn't care less.

Rob

06-09-2009, 11:40 PM

But one with one of the highest living standards on earth, certainly better than Israel, I would say even better than France and GB.

I really doubt this...according to some measures the living standard in Israel is higher. Debt of Belgium is huge.

Wallonia is doing way worse than Israel...Wallonia is in a very bad shape. Wallonia is economically on the same level as Trinidad. Flanders is on the level of other Western European economies.

really? that's new to me? any sources?

Apart from the media in Belgium and the neighbouring Netherlands, the international papers and broadcasters have hardly reported about the disintegration of the EU’s host country. On Tuesday a survey of the Dutch [Netherlandish] television network RTL4 showed that 77% of the inhabitants of the Netherlands are in favour of the Netherlands and Flanders merging into one country.
In Belgium, an internet poll of Flanders’ largest newspaper, Het Laatste Nieuws, showed 50.9% in favour of reuniting Flanders and the Netherlands. The Flemish provinces were part of the Netherlands until 1831, when the international powers established the Kingdom of Belgium.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2348

Most Flemish I know woud rather join Israel or ireland than the Netherlands.

:rofl::lol:

Frenchspeaking Brussels is the motor of the Belgian economy. Walloon is in a worse shape.

Brussels is officially bi-lingual and is not part of Wallonia.

Back on topic. The vote for Wilders during these elections was more a vote against Europe than Islam. His whole campaigm was around that. During the national election Islam will be on his agenda again.

As for the victories of extreme right is Hungary etc. I don't know what to fear more, extreme right or extreme left? I guess it all adds up to the same: uniforms marching in the streets and no room for individualism.

takeo

06-10-2009, 12:16 AM

Rob

I really doubt this...according to some measures the living standard in Israel is higher. Debt of Belgium is huge.

oh come on, what's the average salary in Israel for a normal factory job? Compared to 1500-2000 euro netto in Belgium? according to www.undp.org Belgium is way ahead of Israel both concerning living standards as well as GNP per inhabitant.
Human development index in Belgium is 0.946 (17th of the world) in Israel it is 0.932 (23th in the world)

Wallonia is doing way worse than Israel...Wallonia is in a very bad shape. Wallonia is economically on the same level as Trinidad. Flanders is on the level of other Western European economies.

not true. GNP per capita of Belgium is 36235 $, of Israel it is 28206.
The Belgian GNP (which includes Wallonia) per capita is comparable to the UK, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Australia, Germany, and well ahead of Japan, France let alone Spain or Italy, let alone Israel.

I don't have any statistics for Wallonia, but in general it is believed GNP is about 20% lower than in Flanders and 15% lower than the national level. That's still well above Israel...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Brussels is officially bi-lingual and is not part of Wallonia.

No, but the majority of Brussels is french-speaking, it is a separate entity.

Back on topic. The vote for Wilders during these elections was more a vote against Europe than Islam. His whole campaigm was around that. During the national election Islam will be on his agenda again.

As for the victories of extreme right is Hungary etc. I don't know what to fear more, extreme right or extreme left? I guess it all adds up to the same: uniforms marching in the streets and no room for individualism.

Do you see uniforms marching in the street in europe? I don't. In Israel I see plenty of people marching on the street with automatic guns, not in Europe...
I still don't understand how Jews can support such fascist organisations. Fortunately most are smart enough to stay away from those, extremists are only a minority in every country, even in Hungary, Flandres or France. Fortunately so.

Rob

06-10-2009, 12:28 AM

not true. GNP per capita of Belgium is 36235 $, of Israel it is 28206. The Belgian GNP (which includes Wallonia) per capita is comparable to the UK, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Australia, Germany, and well ahead of Japan, France let alone Spain or Italy, let alone Israel.

"Funny" how you always need to play word games. GNP per capita of Wallonia is on the same level of Trinidad. Look it up!

Do you see uniforms marching in the street in europe?

Oh yes, soooo many occasions (with guns FWIW). And I lived in Europe for 30+ years.

Never seen uniforms marching in the streets of Tel Aviv though...

takeo

06-10-2009, 06:05 AM

Rob

"Funny" how you always need to play word games. GNP per capita of Wallonia is on the same level of Trinidad. Look it up!

If GNP per capita in Wallonia is 15% lower than the national average, as is generally believed in Belgium, than it's still way above both Israel and Trinidad...

Oh yes, soooo many occasions (with guns FWIW). And I lived in Europe for 30+ years.

Well I lived in Europe for 30+ years too (of which let's say 25 years conciously) and I've never seen uniforms parading on the streets, except for the majorettes and on carnival... :rolleyes:
In which European country did you live?

Never seen uniforms marching in the streets of Tel Aviv though...

I've seen plenty of civilian groups armed with automathic guns parading
trough the streets of Jerusalem, even during my last visit.
In most European countries the police would appear in a matter of minutes and arrest you.

Yala

06-10-2009, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by Rob:
Oh yes, soooo many occasions (with guns FWIW). And I lived in Europe for 30+ years.

Fascist groups marching down the streets in Europe is a normal occurance, and uniforms are the norm.

http://www.daylife.com/photo/0gPv1DJ8pa6qv

Members of the Jobbik Hungarian Guard march in Budapest February 10, 2008. The Hungarian Guard, Hungarian far-right party Jobbik's paramilitary arm, marched to commemorate the 51st death anniversary of World War II head of state Miklos Horty.

http://www.antisemitism.org.il/eng/struggle/34000/Germany–AthousandNeo-NazisMarchintheStreetsofDortmund

Radical right wing activists, mostly dressed in black, proudly strode down the streets of Dortmund waving black, white and red flags. Police secured the event in an attempt to avoid violent flashes between the opposing sides.

6000 Neo-Nazis march in Dresden, Feb 15, 2009:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7891076.stm

Neo-Nazis in uniform march in Russia:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/3379675/Riots-in-Russia-after-nationalist-protesters-give-Nazi-salutes.html

Never seen uniforms marching in the streets of Tel Aviv though...

Never. Anyway, in Israel it is mainly the extreme left that marches, but without uniforms of course.

takeo

06-10-2009, 08:02 AM

Fascist groups marching down the streets in Europe is a normal occurance, and uniforms are the norm.

Never

Well, I never saw it anyway, I don't even think it already happened in france or Belgium during last decades. There are unfirmed groups marching trough us streets as well most probably (KKK, etc.) but I don't think it's a normal occurance, well it isn't either in Europe.

Mediocrates

06-10-2009, 10:28 AM

I'm sure our resident commissariat will blame it all on Israel.

Achihud

06-10-2009, 11:27 AM

the majority of Belgians still support the monarchy and Belgium, altough they are not very nationalistic or patriottic, especially compared to France. Lukewarm at best and some who are in it for the memorabilia.

I wouldn't say the loss of sunday was deceptive, it was very real, the party lost nearly half of its votes.
I referred to the previous election.

Also, I don't understand how Jews can support fascists like those ones. Many of their supporters are neo-nazi's and have outspoken racist ideas, including antisemitic ones. (especially in Antwerp)

Some historical ties to VMO no doubt but what counts is what the leadership stands for today.

This is extremely unlikely, especially now that they have lost the elections. The big winner of the elections are the center christian-democrats, they will NEVER form a government with VB, and Dedecker himself is very controversial and only received 8% of the votes. (besides I don't think Dedecker is good news for Israel-supporters he's the most outspoken supporter of the palestinian cause in Belgian politics, also Flemish nationalists NVA support the palestinian cause).

Still far from lunatics like Ritta Duisenberg, The ones that can't be trusted are the green parties and those that buddy buddy with Abou Jahjah. Anxious is a cry baby.

I would say the inverse, now that they lost the election big time their "momentum" is over.

We'll see.

takeo

06-10-2009, 02:58 PM

Achihud

Lukewarm at best and some who are in it for the memorabilia.

Isn't that the case in most royalties?

Some historical ties to VMO no doubt but what counts is what the leadership stands for today.

So you know about their nazi past and supporters but still support VB because they are anti-Arab as well? That's quite shocking actually and very stupid and sad.

Still far from lunatics like Ritta Duisenberg, The ones that can't be trusted are the green parties and those that buddy buddy with Abou Jahjah. Anxious is a cry baby.

But I've heard NVA people and Dedecker supporting the Palestinian cause as well, it's not only limited to the left.