The Winner Fakes It All?

[maven]

Either most of the experts got it wrong or the Regime engineered an outcome, but no matter what newschannel you turn on this morning, be they Western or Middle Eastern, the experts have egg on their face.

Mousavi believes he was robbed. Some commentators say that Iranians were responding more to Hussein Obama than Hossein Mousavi and rejecting the US presidents 'interference'.

If this outcome of two thirds of the people of Iran voting for Ahmedinejad is true then Obama needs to understand that this is not to be rewarded, rather we need to look at strenghtening sanctions and making preparations for attack.

Mousavi's home town which is a stronghold of his vote went overwhelmingly to Ahmedinejad.
Mousavi's newspaper was heavily censored today by the regime with headlines and text left blank.
Riot police have fanned out to cover all major areas of the city,
Plain-clothes Mukhabarat are on evey main street to prevent protests by Mousavi supporters.

Landslide victory for Ahmedinejad; biggest vote for any candidate in the history of the Islamic Republic

The plot sickens.

[takeo]

If this is true than there has been vote-rigging. It will not come down well, you can't give people hope and than take it away.

[Madeline]

What a farce.

[Kachah]

The vote was probably doctored, but to what extent? THey are claiming landslide i.e. over 65% for Ahmurdernejad, it is highly unlikely that the rigging has actually changed the result. Yeah, probably, following the instructions of supreme terrorist Khamenei they've made it look a bit more patriotic or idiotic, whatever fits. Even if the vote was 50/50 it is still pretty sick.
Well, sit back now and enjoy the ride. Episode 2 - Thunderbirds are go.

[maven]

Iran's political system is multi-layered and the job of the elections is in the hands of the interior ministry.

Local ballots are not independently checked and are counted and transferred to a central computer and it is there that the fraud can take place; i.e. there is a point at which the votes dissapear into a black hole before re-emerging as official.

:cool:BADMIN statement:

Official: Obama Administration Skeptical of Iran's Election Results
13.06.09 20:44

U.S. officials are casting doubt over the results of Iran's election, in which the government declared President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad the winner Saturday.

U.S. analysts find it "not credible" that challenger Mir Hossein Mousavi would have lost the balloting in his hometown or that a third candidate, Mehdi Karoubi, would have received less than 1 percent of the total vote, a senior U.S. officials told FOX News.
http://news-en.trend.az/world/wnews/1487852.html

[takeo]

Of course Ahmadinejad has supporters as well, especially on the conservative countryside. But 2/3 of the votes seems highly unlikely. I think we didn't see the last of this, if you see how emotional the campaign was.
Anyway, please stop referring to "thunderbirds" and this kind of aggressive rethorics which will only help Ahmadinejad and the radicals. I think rather what will happen is further isolation of Iran, loosing its allies, since the US is conducting talks on the highest level with Syria and Hamas.

[Yala]

This election is a non-event.

[bararallu]

Anyway, please stop referring to "thunderbirds" and this kind of aggressive rethorics which will only help Ahmadinejad and the radicals.

You are obviously a profound idiot on top of everything else. Does "tongue and cheek" mean anything translated in French? How about sarcasm? Does that register on the Russian propaganda radar? vei.

[Sharona]

The vote was counted way too quickly for comfort. How come it takes the UK from Thursday night to Sunday to declare the outcome of the Euro election, but Iran - with some 70,000,000 population can do it in a matter of hours?

Harry's Place has some interesting links to comments about this election, coming from various sources

http://www.hurryupharry.org/

I have never heard of Juan Cole but a link to his site was posted.

http://www.juancole.com/2009/06/stealing-iranian-election.html

[Kachah]

Anyway, please stop referring to "thunderbirds" and this kind of aggressive rethorics which will only help Ahmadinejad and the radicals. .
Yep. By the same logic let's express our love and support for the progressive President Ahmamejad and his beatiful socialist heaven of Iran - this kind of complacency will apparently help to make Iran even more peaceful and tolerant.

[bararallu]

Juan Cole


=Saudi payroll, like Carter and many others.

[Mediocrates]

Capt Renault is shocked, shocked I tell you.

[maven]

The vote was counted way too quickly for comfort. How come it takes the UK from Thursday night to Sunday to declare the outcome of the Euro election, but Iran - with some 70,000,000 population can do it in a matter of hours?

Harry's Place has some interesting links to comments about this election, coming from various sources

http://www.hurryupharry.org/

I have never heard of Juan Cole but a link to his site was posted.

http://www.juancole.com/2009/06/stealing-iranian-election.htmlThe Supreme Leader according to the constitution is supposed to wait three days before signing off the vote count. Interesting that they said Ahmedinejad was elected beore the vote count had taken place in many areas. Jimmy Carter was not there to check the elections.

Mir Houssein Mousavi is rumoured to be under house arrest. Mr Khartemi is rumoured to have been forced to resign from the Guardian Council.

More than 100 Iranian reformists arrested: reformer
Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:08am EDT


By Parisa Hafezi and Fredrik Dahl

TEHRAN (Reuters) - More than 100 reformists were arrested on Saturday night after President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's presidential election victory led to street protests, leading reformist Mohammad Ali Abtahi told Reuters on Sunday.

A judiciary spokesman said they had not been arrested but were summoned and "warned not to increase tension." They were later released, he said.

Thousands of people clashed with police on Saturday after the disputed election victory of Ahmadinejad sparked the biggest protests in Tehran since the 1979 Islamic revolution.

Iranian and Western analysts said Ahmadinejad's re-election would disappoint Western powers aiming to persuade Iran to halt a nuclear program they suspect is aimed at making bombs.

The arrested reformists were members of Iran's leading reformist party Mosharekat and included Mohammad Reza Khatami the brother of former President Mohammad Khatami.

Abtahi, a former vice-president, told Reuters: "They were taken from their homes last night." He said more arrests were expected.

Saturday's protests were a rare direct challenge to Iranian authorities. The election result and its violent aftermath raised fresh questions about the direction of Iranian policies at a time when President Barack Obama wants to improve relations with Iran.

Mousavi complained of violations and vote-rigging -- allegations rejected by Interior Ministry officials.

"I'm warning I will not surrender to this dangerous charade. The result of such performance by some officials will jeopardize the pillars of the Islamic Republic and will establish tyranny," Mousavi said in a statement made available to Reuters.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSEVA14340720090614

[Mediocrates]

Too bad they didn't hire Jimmy Carter to certify their election as 100% legit.

[Sharona]

=Saudi payroll, like Carter and many others.

Ah.....!

I followed the link to his site and he appears to be less than convinced by the Ahmadinejad landslide.

That said, given:
a) Mahmoud's evangelical conviction regarding his role in the return of the Mahdi,
b) that one-fifth of the population appear to have the same belief
and
c) the existance of telephone hotlines and news agencies charting the progress of the Imam's return - is it possible that Mahmoud did get there under his own steam?

Would Masavi have made a real difference anyway?

[bararallu]

Ah.....!
Would Masavi have made a real difference anyway?

IMHO, no.

[Mediocrates]

First the liberals guaranteed us of a stunning liberal feminist gay friendly anti nuclear anti religious victory. Now they are shaking their tiny fists at god vowing retribution.

[takeo]

Yep. By the same logic let's express our love and support for the progressive President Ahmamejad and his beatiful socialist heaven of Iran - this kind of complacency will apparently help to make Iran even more peaceful and tolerant.

actually threatening to kill Iranians will NOT help the Iranian moderates at all, I don't know which purpose it serves, except helping Ahmadinejad to proove that Iran really does need nukes to defend itself against people who want to kill Iranians.
And baralallu, I don't think referring to "thunderbirds" is funny or sarcastic, it's just plain stupid and confirms all stereotypes people have about the US as an aggressive, evil nation.

[takeo]

The Supreme Leader according to the constitution is supposed to wait three days before signing off the vote count. Interesting that they said Ahmedinejad was elected beore the vote count had taken place in many areas. Jimmy Carter was not there to check the elections.

Mir Houssein Mousavi is rumoured to be under house arrest. Mr Khartemi is rumoured to have been forced to resign from the Guardian Council.

More than 100 Iranian reformists arrested: reformer
Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:08am EDT


By Parisa Hafezi and Fredrik Dahl

TEHRAN (Reuters) - More than 100 reformists were arrested on Saturday night after President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's presidential election victory led to street protests, leading reformist Mohammad Ali Abtahi told Reuters on Sunday.

A judiciary spokesman said they had not been arrested but were summoned and "warned not to increase tension." They were later released, he said.

Thousands of people clashed with police on Saturday after the disputed election victory of Ahmadinejad sparked the biggest protests in Tehran since the 1979 Islamic revolution.

Iranian and Western analysts said Ahmadinejad's re-election would disappoint Western powers aiming to persuade Iran to halt a nuclear program they suspect is aimed at making bombs.

The arrested reformists were members of Iran's leading reformist party Mosharekat and included Mohammad Reza Khatami the brother of former President Mohammad Khatami.

Abtahi, a former vice-president, told Reuters: "They were taken from their homes last night." He said more arrests were expected.

Saturday's protests were a rare direct challenge to Iranian authorities. The election result and its violent aftermath raised fresh questions about the direction of Iranian policies at a time when President Barack Obama wants to improve relations with Iran.

Mousavi complained of violations and vote-rigging -- allegations rejected by Interior Ministry officials.

"I'm warning I will not surrender to this dangerous charade. The result of such performance by some officials will jeopardize the pillars of the Islamic Republic and will establish tyranny," Mousavi said in a statement made available to Reuters.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSEVA14340720090614

This is all very bad news for the regime. I think its days are numbered. Now it has zero credibility.

[Sharona]

First the liberals guaranteed us of a stunning liberal feminist gay friendly anti nuclear anti religious victory. Now they are shaking their tiny fists at god vowing retribution.

:scratch:

[Mediocrates]

The opposition candidate was hand picked by the ayatollahs to be the official candidate for discontented Iranians to vote for. After a week of rioting, a few newspapers closed, new URL filters, a few hundred arrests, the obligatory Zionist plot to overthrow the Iranian government all will be back to normal.

[redcake]

This is monumental, if only because it's given twitter a purpose (and because the uprising response is notable).

http://twitterfall.com/ (click Iranian in the top lefthand corner)
http://twitter.com/iranelection
http://twitter.com/change_for_Iran

There's a lot going on which is not being reported.

[bararallu]

Most of it is proxy referrals lol.

[Yala]

First the liberals guaranteed us of a stunning liberal feminist gay friendly anti nuclear anti religious victory. Now they are shaking their tiny fists at god vowing retribution.

:clap:

[redcake]

Most of it is proxy referrals lol.

It's all proxies now. The Government was blocking them - the students in return hacked the Ministry of Culture site to say "Where are our votes?".

[maven]

Would Masavi have made a real difference anyway?It would have made a profund difference.

First we have to understand that Mr Mousavi was mounting no less than the beginning of a coup against certain entrenched powerbases within the regime.

Even though he was forced to swear allegiance to the Guardian Council and the Supreme Leader in order to be allowed to stand for election his aim was to eventually do what Britain once did in giving the House of Commons supremacy over the House of Lords by using popular support to take political powers from the Guardian Council and the Supreme Leader and place them in the hands of the elected president.

This could never happen overnight.

It was because of this that the regime had to fake the outcome of the elections.

What was Mousavi's intentions on becoming president? He made them clear:

1) Make Iran's nuclear programme entirely transparent to reassure the International Community that Iran's nuclear programme is entirely for civilian use.

2) Enter into negotiations with the United States and the EU to end sanctions allowing him to reform Iran's economy and bring prosperity and jobs.

3) He attacked Ahmed Ahmedinejad over his comments on the Holocaust and said that the issue of the Holocaust is none of Iran's business.

4) He called for a peaceful and 'reasonable' solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem and wanted Iran to work alongside the US, EU and International Community to solve the issue.

5) He was determined to take the morality police off the streets and ensure that women in Iran would have equal rights and opportunities to men.

Something which people who do not understand the scope of nationalism in older or more powerful states (bear in mind that Iran is a two-thousand year old former colonial power while Britain did not become an independent State until 1534, well into the reign of King Henry VIII) is the idiocy of the idea that such a state could accept that any restrictions be placed on it's nuclear programme in terms of processing uranium. Nuclear States such as the US, UK and France would never agree to such a condition. So Mousavi was naturally determined that Iran's pride insisted it processed it's own fuel, this is a natural desire and not to be taken as any rejection of the international community.

Also he would not change Iran's policy on how it saw the future for Israel and Palestine; their policy is a one-State solution. But Mousavi made it clear that he would in the end accept the will of the people in the area; i.e. if a two-State solution was agreed to by the Israelis and a Palestinians in a vote then he would accept that.

He also made it clear that the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem was not in violence, leading commentators to believe that Hiz'bollah and Hamas would not enjoy the levels of military support under Mousavi that they had enjoyed under Ahmedinejad.

If I could point to the biggest difference of all it would be that Mousavi would have greatly lowered tensions in the region and that he does not want Israel 'wiped off the map' as the clearly messianic, racist and anti-Semitic Ahmedinejad does.

I would not be surprised if Mousavi hates Israel or pretends to hate her as much as every leader in the ME including those of Lebanon, which is entirely understandable given the current position in the ME. But hating Israel now does not mean to hate it in a politically different future.

When someone so close to the regime that he founded Iran's nuclear programme, joined by Rafsanjane and others, turns against the regime and wants to so fundamentally reform it, it shows that there is now a civil war raging within the Iranian power elite.

That struggle will last nine more days while the Guardian Council scrutinize the election results as they are constitutionally bound to do. At that point either Mousavi emerges the winner and the election results are annulled or more likely Mousavi, Rafsangani and others could be jailed or restricted and the Islamic Dictatorship Of Iran more horribly formulized.

[Mediocrates]

Mousavi BEGAN Iran's nuclear weapons program. He was hand picked by the Ayatollahs to be the official opposition candidate. The venue for discontent.

We've been hearing about tomorrow morning's spontaneous eruption of righteous middle class Iranian revolution against the theocracy for 25 years now. It is NEVER going to happen. And this is all of a set-piece in political theater. If anything, now Iran will be politically emboldened to take more aggressive steps in Syria and Lebanon. And Iranians, who have little stake in that one way or the other will not care or rise up. Why should they? It's not as if they've ever known anything else.

The Soviet Union persisted, what? 74 years? And no one even believed in it. So how long do you think Iran will hang around? I predict another century.

[Yala]

Medio is right. This is not like the last revolution in Iran where poor people fought by the hundreds of thousands to bring about the Islamic theocracy. These people had nothing to lose and everything to gain. Not to mention they were poor and uneducated and could be tricked into doing just about anything. Of course after the revolution, they did gain some stolen houses from some rich people, but years later they were used as cannon fodder during the Iran-Iraq war.

The people who would theoretically bring about this next revolution are the middle class and rich elites who have lots to gain, true, but also lots to lose. They are not stupid. They know the Islamic regime is ruthless.

[maven]

Medio is right. This is not like the last revolution in Iran where poor people fought by the hundreds of thousands to bring about the Islamic theocracy. These people had nothing to lose and everything to gain. Not to mention they were poor and uneducated and could be tricked into doing just about anything. Of course after the revolution, they did gain some stolen houses from some rich people, but years later they were used as cannon fodder during the Iran-Iraq war.

The people who would theoretically bring about this next revolution are the middle class and rich elites who have lots to gain, true, but also lots to lose. They are not stupid. They know the Islamic regime is ruthless.

Fabulous Vlog Bro's Rant:

-Persian Magic Tricks-

....Iran Election Fraud: 5 Reasons to Doubt the Results:

http://www.youtube.com/user/vlogbrothers

[takeo]

Khamenei decided to investigate the complaints of the opposition, in the meanwhile 100000's of people took to the streets.
Maybe something IS happening in Iran, such largescale protest is unprecedented. I think it's a dangerous moment for the Islamic regime, and it can quickly turn against the very fundations of the regime, if Khamenei supports Ahmadinejad.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8101098.stm

The governments of Iraq and Afghanistan support Ahmadinejad. In the case of Iraq that's no surprise, the ruling party in Iraq is on the same ideological line.

[Kachah]

Funny Ahmacommunist canceled the trip to Moscow to see his ideological brothers in nuclear arms!
Maybe all of a sudden something IS happenning?

[takeo]

Russia openly criticised Ahmadinejad, and seems to support his opponent. He's from Azerbaidjan, I don't know if that has any importance tough.

[Kachah]

You probably think that he is from the ex-Soviet Azerbajan, right, takeo?
lol

[takeo]

You probably think that he is from the ex-Soviet Azerbajan, right, takeo?
lol

go f ck yourself, about 25 % of Iranian population is Azeri, called Turkish in Iran, including khamenei. Anyway despite Russian criticism he visited Sverdlovsk and was congratulated by the Shangai club members, including Russia.

[Kachah]

Western Azerbaijan is a province in Iran, crackerass, and its ethnically Azeri population is Shi'a Moslem (unlike the state of Azerbaijan).
Anyway, blow me.

[Rob]

Situation is a lot worse than reported by the media. Militias are moving in everywhere, especially universities are battle grounds.

I hope this is it, the end of the ayatollahs.

Latest pics (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fhashemi/sets/72157619758530748/)

[Mediocrates]

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090615_western_misconceptions_meet_iranian_reali ty

Americans and Europeans have been misreading Iran for 30 years. Even after the shah fell, the myth has survived that a mass movement of people exists demanding liberalization — a movement that if encouraged by the West eventually would form a majority and rule the country. We call this outlook “iPod liberalism,” the idea that anyone who listens to rock ‘n’ roll on an iPod, writes blogs and knows what it means to Twitter must be an enthusiastic supporter of Western liberalism. Even more significantly, this outlook fails to recognize that iPod owners represent a small minority in Iran — a country that is poor, pious and content on the whole with the revolution forged 30 years ago.
There are undoubtedly people who want to liberalize the Iranian regime. They are to be found among the professional classes in Tehran, as well as among students. Many speak English, making them accessible to the touring journalists, diplomats and intelligence people who pass through. They are the ones who can speak to Westerners, and they are the ones willing to speak to Westerners. And these people give Westerners a wildly distorted view of Iran. They can create the impression that a fantastic liberalization is at hand — but not when you realize that iPod-owning Anglophones are not exactly the majority in Iran.
Last Friday, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was re-elected (http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20090613_iran_results_presidential_election)with about two-thirds of the vote. Supporters of his opponent, both inside and outside Iran, were stunned. A poll revealed that former Iranian Prime Minister Mir Hossein Mousavi was beating Ahmadinejad. It is, of course, interesting to meditate on how you could conduct a poll in a country where phones are not universal, and making a call once you have found a phone can be a trial. A poll therefore would probably reach people who had phones and lived in Tehran and other urban areas. Among those, Mousavi probably did win. But outside Tehran, and beyond persons easy to poll, the numbers turned out quite different.
Some still charge that Ahmadinejad cheated (http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20090613_iran_election_update_3). That is certainly a possibility, but it is difficult to see how he could have stolen the election by such a large margin. Doing so would have required the involvement of an incredible number of people, and would have risked creating numbers that quite plainly did not jibe with sentiment in each precinct. Widespread fraud would mean that Ahmadinejad manufactured numbers in Tehran without any regard for the vote. But he has many powerful enemies who would quickly have spotted this and would have called him on it. Mousavi still insists he was robbed, and we must remain open to the possibility that he was, although it is hard to see the mechanics of this.

[redcake]

This isn't political theater. An exercise in futility, maybe, but I think this is a genuine uprising.

Iranians are screaming on principle that their votes should count, not because they would tell you one candidate is any better than another in a Mullah sanctified election. But Iranians are funny in that their political contradictions.

The problem is, being fearless and a little nutty is great to spur up confrontation, but a youth rebellion is meaningless unless there's leadership, and Twitter isn't leadership. If they win, and put Mousavi in power, they've accomplished nothing. Hopefully this isn't just another Tinnamen Square. Unfortunately, I think Obama may have screwed these kids with the timing of his Muslim speech, and now with the perception his response is restrained.

[redcake]

This is making the rounds via Facebook....I've cut out some details to shorten the post....



Censored Name reports his own observations on the course of events of 15th June 2009 in Tehran

[....]
I saw a group of about 20 militia with long beards and batons on motorbikes. My hand was out of the car window with a little green ribbon (the sign of reformists) around my finger. One of the militia told me to throw that ribbon away. I showed him a finger. All of a sudden, about 15 people attacked me inside the car. They beat me with their batons and wanted to pull me out. My wife and my daughter who were sitting in the back seat cried and hold me tight. I also hold myself tight on the chair. They wanted to shatter the car windows. The driver went out and explained that he is a taxi and we are his passengers and he has no fault. After about 5 minutes,they left. My elbow hurts severely. Then, a young man from their group came and kissed my elbow! I told him: You know, I don't hate you. I am like you with the only difference that I know more and you are ignorant. He apologized and left.
We joined the crowd in Enghelab Street.

Read carefully:
What I saw today was the most elegant scene I had ever witnessed in my life. The huge number of people were marching hand in hand in full peace. Silence. Silence was everywhere. There was no slogan. No violence. Hands were up in victory sign with green ribbons. People carried placards which read: Silence. Old and young, man and woman of all social groups were marching cheerfully. This was a magnificent show of solidarity. Enghelab Street which is the widest avenue in Tehran was full of people.

[...] Frankly, I didn't expect such a political maturity from emotional Iranians who easily get excited. My family and I had put stickers on our mouths to represent the suppression. Placards that people carried were different; from poems by the national poet Ahmad Shamlu to light-hearted slogans against Ahmadinejad. Examples include: " To slaughter us/ why did you need to invite us / to such an elegant party" (Poem by Shamlu). " Hello! Hello! 999? / Our votes were stolen" or " The Miracle of the Third Millenium: 2 x 2 = 24 millions" (alluding to the claim by Government that Ahmadinejad obtained 24 million votes) , "Where is my vote?" , " Give me back my vote" and many other.


We arrived in Azadi Square where the entire square was full of population. It is said that around 500,000 people can be accommodated in this huge square and it was full. Suddenly we saw smoke from Jenah Freeway and heard the gunshot. People were scared at first but then went forward. I just heard the gunshots but my sister who had been on the scene at that part told me later that she saw 4 militia came out from a house and shot a girl. Then they shot a young boy in his eye and the bullet came out of his ear. She said that 4 people were shot. At least one person dead has been confirmed. People arrested one of the Baseeji militia but the three others ran away when they ran out of bullet. At around 8 we went back on foot. On the way back people were still in the street and were chanting Allah Akbar (God is Great).



Today, at least 2 million came only relying on word of mouth while reformists have no newspaper, no radio, no TV. All their internet sites are filtered as well as social networks such as facebook. Text messaging and mobile communication was also cut off during the demonstration. Since yesterday, the Iranian TV was announcing that there is no license for any gathering and riot police will severely punish anybody who may demonstrates. Ahmadinejad called the opposition as a bunch of insignificant dirt who try to make the taste of victory bitter to the nation. He also called the western leaders as a bunch of "filthy homosexuals". All these disgusting remarks was today answered by that largest demonstration ever. Older people compared the demonstration of today with the Ashura Demonstration of 1979 which marks the downfall of the Shah regime and even said that it outnumbered that event.

The militia burnt a house themselves to find the excuse to commit violence. People neutralized their tactic to a large degree by their solidarity, their wisdom and their denial to enage in any violent act.
I feel sad for the loss of those young girls and boys. It is said that they also killed 3 students last night in their attack at Tehran University residence halls. I heard that a number of professors of Sharif University and AmirKabir University (Tehran Polytechnic) have resigned.
Democracy is a long way ahead. I may not be alive to see that day. With eyes full of tear in these early hours of Tuesday 16th June 2009, I glorify the courage and bravery of those martyrs and I hope that their blood will make every one of us more committed to freedom, to democracy and to human rights.
Viva Freedom, Viva Democracy, Viva Iran

[serdar]

Russia openly criticised Ahmadinejad, and seems to support his opponent. He's from Azerbaidjan, I don't know if that has any importance tough.
No tako tako, Ahmedinejad's from China. Yes he's a Chinese! :lol:

[redcake]

Some reports have Hezbollah troops in Iran to police the protests.
Many reports of hearing Arabic spoken during clashes.

[Yala]

Some still charge that Ahmadinejad cheated (http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20090613_iran_election_update_3).

Mousavi "lost" in his own home town! In addition to that he lost in all the places where he was most popular. It is very clear the election was rigged.

[Yala]

Some reports have Hezbollah troops in Iran to police the protests.
Many reports of hearing Arabic spoken during clashes.

Der Spiegel reported this. Apparently they imported 5,000 Hezbollah to crack some skulls.

[Kachah]

Der Spiegel reported this. Apparently they imported 5,000 Hezbollah to crack some skulls.5000 fighters moved for a 1000 km and Shin Beth/CIA/MI6/whoever didn't know that?
Or they've dug a secret tunnel from Southern Lebanon?

[Yala]

5000 fighters moved for a 1000 km and Shin Beth/CIA/MI6/whoever didn't know that?
Or they've dug a secret tunnel from Southern Lebanon?

Who said they didn't know? Do you receive top secret updates from them?

[redcake]

Took the words right out of my mouth, Yala.

Though I will say this - if Israel isn't in there taking advantage of this somehow, then it is really Israel who never misses an opportunity to miss and opportunity.

[Kachah]

Who said they didn't know? Do you receive top secret updates from them?I do, right here on my Blackberry.
If they knew they would have made it public for sure.

[redcake]

Aside from knowing Hezbollah are a proxy army funded by Iran, Israel hasn't made much public about them - so either they know and they aren't releasing the info, or they just don't know....either way, your Blackberry shouldn't hold it's breath.

[Rob]

Mousavi "lost" in his own home town! In addition to that he lost in all the places where he was most popular. It is very clear the election was rigged.

picture-that-proves-iran-election-rigging (http://loft965.com/2009/06/17/picture-that-proves-iran-election-rigging/)

[takeo]

Western Azerbaijan is a province in Iran, crackerass, and its ethnically Azeri population is Shi'a Moslem (unlike the state of Azerbaijan).
Anyway, blow me.

the state of Azerbaidjan is shi'a muslim as well. (at least in theory, many are secular)

[Madeline]

Situation is a lot worse than reported by the media. Militias are moving in everywhere, especially universities are battle grounds.

I hope this is it, the end of the ayatollahs.

Latest pics (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fhashemi/sets/72157619758530748/)

Iranian opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi has called for a mass rally to protest the country's hotly-disputed election results and violence against his supporters.

The call, which appeared on his Web site Thursday, presents a direct challenge to Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who said Tuesday evening that Mousavi should pursue his demands through the country's electoral system.

But Mousavi appears to have no intention of backing down. His announcement came shortly after the country's most powerful military force said that Iranian Web sites and bloggers must remove any materials that "create tension" or face legal action.

• Click here for photos. (WARNING: Graphic images)see more here:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,526829,00.html

[Mosche]

Haven't had time to post on this--work's been a...! Anyway, I'm sure that several will disagree with this, but I really like the way Obama is playing this (i.e. he's keeping his mouth SHUT!). WHATEVER happens in Iran, I think that real reform--if that's even possible--must arise internally! The last thing that we want to occur is another Shah situation, a situation where the U.S. is hated for installing a leader that is viewed by the masses as a U.S. puppet.

My biggest beef with the Bush administration--there were MANY--was his desire to export democracy. How is that possible? Democracy must be seen as a positive by those who adopt it; if democracy is seen as a "forced form of government," then the term seems to become a bit of an oxymoron. If we allow the masses to choose for themselves, perhaps they'll make choices that are right for THEM. In the end, isn't that what democracy is really all about?

For what it's worth...I'm no Obama fan; so, please, no red-herrings!

[Mediocrates]

Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch. Air drop 100 million machetes and them sort it out Rwanda style.

[Kenneth]

I wonder what percentage of the Mousavi bunch are just as happy chanting death to America?

[Mediocrates]

The reason this has so much appeal is that the opposition is made up of urban young people who are modern and speak English and use their phones to twitter about the ganoush they ate at the revolution. CNN went so far as to call Mousavi's wife "The Iranian Michelle Obama".

Meanwhile Mousavi is the one who started the Iranian atomic bomb program and is every bit the fundamentalist conservative the clerics who hand picked him, are.

[maven]

Air drop 100 million machetes and them sort it out Rwanda style.Ooops! Sorry Mediocrates, we dropped the last of the machetes on Somalia last week.

I'm thinking of going for the light souffle garnished with a heavy kick in the teeth for every protester courtesy of the Baseji. Bit of torture, public executions and definatly lots of long-term detentions for counter-revolutionaries, round that off with all the leaders of the refomist tendency stewed lightly in a cold stone prison until some Western values sink in and then let's have another go?

I don't think the Iranians are sufficently ready yet. I want to hear calls for the end of the Islamic regime and I don't want to see any more pictures of the Supreme leader being held at Mousavi protests.

[shravan]

I wonder what percentage of the Mousavi bunch are just as happy chanting death to America?

None. Recession, Poverty are the real issues. They want a leader who will spend more money on Iran's development than Lebanon/Palestine.

[shravan]

Meanwhile Mousavi is the one who started the Iranian atomic bomb program and is every bit the fundamentalist conservative the clerics who hand picked him, are.

Opportunistic...:p

[maven]

Supreme leader just called the protestors 'mutineers and insurgents." Now that's the sort of language I want to hear from the regime. I want to see clear green water between the Islamic Republic and the protestors.

[Kenneth]

None. Recession, Poverty are the real issues. They want a leader who will spend more money on Iran's development than Lebanon/Palestine.

None now or none ever?

Mousavi is not exactly pro-American, I'd assume a healthy chunk of his supporters share his views and even If or when Mousavi gets power he would still be under the control of the Clerics. Iran is still a theocracy and as such needs a bogey-man.

[bararallu]

Israel should call the Saudis now, and offer to broker an arms import to the Sunnis in Leb, on the DL.

[redcake]

I worry about Mousavi calling for more protests. It appears the Mullahs are playing this from both sides.... and they're still angry at Obama's non-response.

I'm sorry but when there's unrest in the world and supposedly free elections - for an American President to be restrained in response is kind of odd. That this same American President just addressed that population only a few weeks ago makes it even odder. Meddling is meddling no matter how passive we do it.

Bararallu - I wish Israel was half as creative as we are these days.

[Yala]

Israel should call the Saudis now, and offer to broker an arms import to the Sunnis in Leb, on the DL.

Sorry, but I think the US and Israel should stay out of this one. Anyone being found out to have American or Israeli ties will lose their street cred.

About Obama, I think it's a smart strategy to stay relatively mum. Iranians do not want America meddling in their affairs. They do not wish to be a slave to America like the Israelis.

[maven]

This is today in Tehran folks, an unofficial demo. Imajine tomorrow which is official:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmhKQqRlsfo

I have been closely monitoring this and am hearing lots of Iranians wanting to overthrow the regime and have democracy and freedom, I have heard no one wanting to keep the current regime in place even though the liberal media is falling over itself to tell us that the Iranians all support the regime.

I hope Mousavi will give them that. If he does not he will end up being overthrown himself.

I wish Obama and Hillary would keep their big mouths shut. They are not helping by their comments today which the regime are seizing on.

[redcake]

Mousavi isn't a regime change.

They're just protesting for what amounts to a drop of liberty, and pride in having their vote count. Neither option will relieve them of a dictatorship, or the Islamic council.

It's getting bad over there - I don't believe the US should sit silent.

[maven]

Mousavi isn't a regime change.

They're just protesting for what amounts to a drop of liberty, and pride in having their vote count. Neither option will relieve them of a dictatorship, or the Islamic council.

It's getting bad over there - I don't believe the US should sit silent.Look beyond the liberal media's accepted view and listen to what the Iranian protestors are saying themselves not what some bimbo from CNN is telling you. They are talking about democracy and freedom and getting rid of the regime.

Mousavi may have thought he was not regime change, but now he is a victim of his own success. If he does not give the people what they think he is offering them them then he will also be overthrown.

wtf has America got to do with it? What could Obama say that could help?

[redcake]

If they're talking about a regime change, you realize that has nothing to do with Mousavi right? The regime was not up for election.

The Islamic regime are sanctioning this sham election, and every candidate. Mousavi was the prime minister shortly after the Islamic Revolution responsible for tens of thousands of deaths, and Mediocrates already mentioned the guys involvement with Iran's nuclear program.

It could be the Supreme Leader is in danger if this movement continues, and there is a theory that Ahmenichimp rigged the election behind Khamenei's back and this is his coup attempt - but you're mistaken if you are under the impression Mousavi is leading a movement against Khamenei & Co. or that he's the youth movements idea of a Democratic leader.

Aside from say, calling a UN special session, the US could have made strong remarks like these:

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has denounced the Iranian government's "brutal" reaction to demonstrators protesting the nation's disputed election.

Sarkozy calls the situation in Iran "extremely alarming" and says Iran's clampdown on demonstrators was "totally disproportionate."

Sarkozy said Tuesday: "The ruling power claims to have won the elections ... if that were true, we must ask why they find it necessary to imprison their opponents and repress them with such violence."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1244371115526&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Kachah]

Could this be a ploy from the ayatollahs to replace one mad dog with another one equally mad but now supported by the West as a "rebel" against Islamic tyranny and hence a "democrat" by rights?

[Yala]

nah b/c this whole charade is not only making them look bad to the world, but bad to their own people.

[Kachah]

nah b/c this whole charade is not only making them look bad to the world, but bad to their own people.
Sure, this usually is the most trouble for the tyrants - how they look to their own people.
It's a methodological error - we are judging them against our own criteria set.

[maven]

Aside from say, calling a UN special session, the US could have made strong remarks like these:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1244371115526&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFullWhat's the point of that? You should be considering Israel's and the Wests interests.

To hell with the protestors, the best thing that could happen to them is that they are heavily supressed, jailed, beaten and killed. Only when everyone turns against the Islamofascist regime are they ready for change. So I'm hoping that Basejis and the police will feel free to open fire without hypocritical preaching from Western leaders.

The best thing that could happen for all of us and for future generations of Iranians is a massive bloodbath that would turn everyone in Iran against the regime and even Mousavi is he is too married to it.

[shravan]

None now or none ever?

Mousavi is not exactly pro-American, I'd assume a healthy chunk of his supporters share his views and even If or when Mousavi gets power he would still be under the control of the Clerics. Iran is still a theocracy and as such needs a bogey-man.

Mousavi might be worst than Mahmoud Ahmadinejad but people voted him for local issues like jobs, poverty,etc not for destruction of Israel or America.

[maven]

Mousavi might be worst than Mahmoud Ahmadinejad but people voted him for local issues like jobs, poverty,etc not for destruction of Israel or America.At least he is not a raging homophobic anti-semite like Ahmedinejad. But his suspected support for the regime is exactly why it is in our interest that the regime destroys this protest with utmost violence.

[shravan]

At least he is not a raging homophobic anti-semite like Ahmedinejad. But his suspected support for the regime is exactly why it is in our interest that the regime destroys this protest with utmost violence.

Anti-Semitic was used to hide local issues.

[shravan]

Mediocrates already mentioned the guys involvement with Iran's nuclear program.


Iran nuclear weapons will be aimed at Sunni Countries not on Israel.

[maven]

GUARDIAN COUNCIL ANNOUNCES A FIX.

In a move to consolidate the future of the Islamofascist Republic the Guardian Council of experts has today
called a meeting for Saturday to collude in a fix with all sides in the regime; 'Reformers' and Conservatives.

What has been interesting is how Ahmedinejad has been sidelined over the last 48 hours and the suspicion is
that the regime will be willing to ditch him in order to stay in power.

What is particularly sinister is that the meeting was first called for by Mousavis number two Hashemi Rafsanjani,
one of Iran’s most pre-eminent political figures, and a powerful leader of the Expediency Council, set up by the
regime to resolve disputes between Parliament and the Guardian Council.

If this meeting merely amounts to a simple change in the line-up of the regime then the West can only hope
for violence on a massive scale to turn the people against the regime.

Mousavi is trying to prevent any clash between the armed forces of various kinds and the demonstrators
turning Ghandi's theory of non-violence to achieve change on it's head and helping the regime to remain in balance.

Any success of this meeting in bringing about another election or the annulment of the last is likely to be followed
by idiots like Hillary Clinton praising the Iranian regime for being 'democratic.'

[Kenneth]

Voter turnout in some towns exceeded 100%. A disaster for Maths but a tremendous win for democracy.

[maven]

Voter turnout in some towns exceeded 100%. A disaster for Maths but a tremendous win for democracy.Except that Iran is not a democracy.

[shravan]

Except that Iran is not a democracy.

True. But Iran can become a democracy. The main loser in this election was Ali Khamenei

[maven]

True. But Iran can become a democracy. The main loser in this election was Ali KhameneiNorth Korea could become a democracy. If the fix works between the two sides on Saturday and Mousavi becomes leader then democracy will be denied for perhaps another generation. That is if as expected Mousavi will simply reform the regime and not replace it with a democracy. In which case the main loser will be the Iranian people and the West.

[shravan]

North Korea could become a democracy. If the fix works between the two sides on Saturday and Mousavi becomes leader then democracy will be denied for perhaps another generation. That is if as expected Mousavi will simply reform the regime and not replace it with a democracy.
The main loser will be the Iranian people.

I am not getting you. Are you supporting Ahmadinejad?

[maven]

I am not getting you. Are you supporting Ahmadinejad?Best thing is to make yourself a cup of tea and sit down and read the thread, try also to follow the news, then you might begin to get a clue what is going on.

[shravan]

Best thing is to make yourself a cup of tea and sit down and read the thread, try also to follow the news, then you might begin to get a clue what is going on.

As a Indian it does not matter me. We will maintain good relations with Iran. Iran and India are facing the same threat - Sunni Wahabbi/Salafist.

[Madeline]

The Iranian people are feeling empowered...needed a reason, ANY reason to make their voices heard. That, in itself, is progress, and should not be overlooked.
Others will join them, and the Mullahs have to take notice.

[maven]

As a Indian it does not matter me. We will maintain good relations with Iran. Iran and India are facing the same threat - Sunni Wahabbi/Salafist.Quite right, India is part of the criminal gang known as the 'Non-Aligned Movement.' a watering hole for every despotic regime on the planet. India pursues an entirely immoral foreign policy on the basis of making money; wheter be it with the thugs in Burma, Zimbawbwe or Iran.

But that is not what this thread is about shravan. This thread currently is about a movement within the Islamofascist regime of Iran between the reformers and the conservatives to come together to deny the people of Iran freedom and democracy by working out how they can perpetuate their regime.

[shravan]

Hedgehogs and flamingos in Tehran (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KF16Ak01.html)

By Spengler

In Wonderland, Alice played croquet with hedgehogs and flamingos. In the Middle East, United States President Barack Obama is attempting the same thing, but with rats and cobras. Not only do they move at inconvenient times, but they bite the players. Iran's presidential election on Friday underscores the Wonderland character of American policy in the region.

America's proposed engagement of Iran has run up against the reality of the region, namely that Iran cannot "moderate" its support for its fractious Shi'ite allies from Beirut to Pakistan's northwest frontier. It also shows how misguided Obama was to assume that progress on the Palestinian issue would help America solve more urgent strategic problems, such as Iran's potential acquisition of nuclear weapons.

By assigning 64% of the popular vote to incumbent President Mahmud Ahmadinejad in last weekend's elections, Iran's reigning mullahs, if there was indeed rigging, made a statement - but to whom? The trumpet which dare not sound an uncertain note was a call to Tehran's Shi'ite constituency, as well as to a fifth of Pakistani Muslims. Religious establishments by their nature are conservative, and they engage in radical acts only in need.

Tehran is tugged forward by the puppies of war: Hezbollah in Lebanon and its co-sectarians in Pakistan. With a population of 170 million, Pakistan has 20 million men of military age, as many as Iran and Turkey combined; by 2035 it will have half again as many. It also has nuclear weapons. And it is in danger of disintegration.

Against a young, aggressive and unstable Pakistan, Iran seems a moribund competitor. Iran's fertility decline is the fastest that demographers ever have observed. As I reported on this site last February (Sex, drugs and Islam, February 24, 2009), Iranian fertility by some accounts has fallen below the level of 1.9 births per female registered in the 2006 census to only 1.6, barely above Germany's.

Collapsing fertility is accompanied by social pathologies, including rates of drug addiction and prostitution an order of magnitude greater than in any Western country. Of the 15 countries that show the biggest drop in population growth since 1980, eight are in the Middle East, and the head of the United Nations population division calls the collapse of Islamic population growth "amazing". Pakistan is the great exception, and that makes it the fulcrum of the Muslim world.

Ahmadinejad's invective may be aimed at Jerusalem, but his eye is fixed on Islamabad. That explains the decisions of his masters in Tehran's religious establishment who may have rigged, or at least exaggerated, his election victory. Pakistan's ongoing civil war has a critical sectarian component which the Shi'ites never sought: the Taliban claim legitimacy as the Muslim leadership of the country on the strength of their militancy against the country's Shi'ite minority. Were the Taliban to succeed in crushing Pakistan's Shi'ites, Iran's credibility as a Shi'ite power would fade, along with its ability to project influence in the region.

As Middle East analyst Daniel Pipes asks, "Why did [Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali] Khamenei select Ahmadinejad to "win" the election? Why did he not chose a president-puppet who would present a smile to the world, including Obama, handle the economy competently, not rile the population, and whose selection would not inspire riots that might destabilize the regime? Has Khamenei fallen under the spell of Ahmadinejad or does he have some clever ploy up his sleeve? Whatever the answer is, it baffles me."

The issue is less baffling when raw numbers are taken into account. The issues on which Iran's supposed moderation might be relevant, such as the Arab-Israeli conflict, are less pressing for Tehran than the problems on its eastern border. Of the world's 200 million Shi'ite Muslims, about 30% reside in Iran. Another 10% live in neighboring Iraq, and comprise about two-thirds of the country's population. Yet another 30% of the Shi'ite live in the Indian sub-continent, about equally divided between India and Pakistan. Pakistani Shi'ites make up only about one-fifth of the country's population. Their numbers are just large enough to make the Sunnis ill at ease with their presence.

Shi'ite --- Sunni
TOTAL 219,667,367 --- 1,238,699,792
Iran 61,924,500 --- 6,880,500
Pakistan 33,160,712 --- 127,668,738
India 30,900,000 --- 123,600,000
Iraq 18,158,400 --- 9,777,600
Turkey 14,550,000 --- 58,200,000

Shi'ite leaders of the region believe that they stand on the verge of an irreversible breakdown of Islamic civilization, a thesis which Iraqi leader Ali W Allawi argued forcefully in a recent book, The Crisis of Islamic Civilization. Allawi wrote, "The much heralded Islamic 'awakening' of recent times will not be a prelude to the rebirth of an Islamic civilization; it will be another episode in its decline. The revolt of Islam becomes instead the final act of the end of a civilization." I reviewed Allawi's book on this site in (Predicting the death of Islam May 5, 2009).

Iran's aspirations for a restored Islamic civilization cannot exclude Pakistan's 30 million Shi'ites. The Taliban's insurgency inside Pakistan is directed against the Shi'ites more than any other target, and to make matters worse, Pakistani intelligence is agitating among Iran's own Sunni minority.

On June 12, the day before Iran's election, a Taliban suicide bomber killed Mufti Sarfraz Naeemi in Lahore, the leader of the pro-government Barelvi Muslim current in Pakistan. As Pakistan's Daily Times wrote June 14, "The reason for this murder was not far too seek. Mufti Naeemi, arguably the most influential of the Ahle Sunnat-Barelvi school of thought in Pakistan, had recently presided over an all-Barelvi conference in Islamabad condemning the Taliban practice of suicide-bombing, and presenting to the nation, as it were, a choice between the extremist Deobandi Taliban and the moderate Ahle Sunnat clerical confederation."

The Deobandi wing of Sunni Islam preaches violence against Pakistan's Shi'ite minority, whose position would be fragile were the Taliban to take power. Although Deobandi Islam is a minority current among Pakistani Sunnis, "The conduct of covert jihad by the state has thrown the Barelvis into obscurity and a lack of street power over the years," the Daily Times wrote. "Their mosques, once in a majority in the country, were either grabbed by the more powerful Deobandis with trained jihadi cadres who could be violent, or simply outnumbered by the more resourceful Deobandi-linked ones."

The threat to Iran from the Pakistani Taliban extends to Iran's eastern provinces. A May 28 bomb destroyed a mosque in the Kordestan city of Zahedan, on the Pakistani border. Iran called in Pakistan's ambassador to protest alleged official support for the terrorists of the Pakistan-based Jundallah Sunni group which planted the bomb. Tehran also has circulated murky allegations that Israel's secret service was behind the mosque bombing.

Kaveh L Afrasiabi wrote on June 3 in Asia Times Online, "Where Iran has Hezbollah, Israel has Jundallah, given Israel's apparent efforts to destabilize Iran by playing an 'ethnic card' against it. This, by some reports, it is doing by nurturing the Sunni Islamist group Jundallah to parallel Tehran's support for Lebanon's formidable Shi'ite group, Hezbollah." (Please see Hezbollah spices up Israel-Iran mix.)

In addition to Israel, Xinhua reported May 30, "Iran also blamed the United States, Britain and some other Western countries behind these attacks, accusing them of destabilizing the Islamic Republic, a charge denied by Washington and London."

It is hard to guess who might be funding Jundallah. Pakistan's secret service as well as the Saudis have a motive to do so. Washington's interest is to strengthen the coalition against the Pashtun-speaking Taliban, which means keeping several ethnic minorities allied against the Taliban with the Punjabi core of Pakistan's armed forces. These include the Dari-speaking Kabuli Pashtuns, the Tajiks and the mainly Shi'ite Hazara, a Turkic tribe whom the Iranians tend to deprecate. That is where Washington looks for help from Teheran.

If Tehran were playing a two-sided chess game with Washington, a moderate face like that of Hossein Mousavi would have served Iranian interests better than Ahmadinejad, as Pipes suggests. But Tehran also has to send signals to the sidelines of the chess match. With the situation on its eastern border deteriorating and a serious threat emerging to the Shi'ites of Pakistan, Iran has to make its militancy clear to all the players in the region. Washington's ill-considered attempts at coalition building are more a distraction than anything else.
.
.
.
Hedgehogs and flamingos in Tehran (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KF16Ak01.html)

[shravan]

Quite right, India is part of the criminal gang known as the 'Non-Aligned Movement.' a watering hole for every despotic regime on the planet. India pursues an entirely immoral foreign policy on the basis of making money; wheter be it with the thugs in Burma, Zimbawbwe or Iran.

LOL. At least we stick with our allies. We don't use them as toilet paper.

And please search for - “String of Pearls" you will understand why India has to support Burma, Iran, etc.

But that is not what this thread is about shravan. This thread currently is about a movement within the Islamofascist regime of Iran between the reformers and the conservatives to come together to deny the people of Iran freedom and democracy by working out how they can perpetuate their regime.

Tell me who are you supporting. And why did Iran became Israel's main supplier of oil after the 1967 war.

[shravan]

This thread currently is about a movement within the Islamofascist regime of Iran between the reformers and the conservatives to come together to deny the people of Iran freedom and democracy by working out how they can perpetuate their regime.

Maven,

Do you have any idea how Iran democracy works ?

[Kenneth]

It works to 141% capacity in some towns.

[shravan]

From Nightwatch (http://nightwatch.afcea.org/NightWatch_20090617.htm)
.
.
.

The next step for the government will be an attempt at a wider and harsher crackdown, almost certainly. Khamenei might try to finesse the unrest by skipping the next over-reaction step, though the Revolutionary Guards will oppose a finesse move without more head cracking. The finesse move would be aimed at dispersing demonstrations by agreeing to allow ballot boxes to be compared against voter registration rolls, a major concession and gamble. If this occurs, Khamenei would show he is willing to sacrifice Ahmadi-Nejad for the sake of the theocracy, assuming the Guardian reports are accurate.

Such a concession is more likely now that the protests are diversifying. Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei is most likely getting worried that a systemic change is threatened on his watch. Those worries will make a leader prone to try to settle things as quickly as he can and prone to make colossal blunders.

The theocracy itself is not challenged, only the honesty of the processes it set up. Its feet are being held to the fire, as it were. If the protests continue, which now seems likely for the first time based on the evidence, the theocracy will undergo significant change by becoming accountable to the electorate in an unprecedented fashion for Iran, at least for a short while. That is tentatively and potentially tonight’s good news.

[redcake]

Iran nuclear weapons will be aimed at Sunni Countries not on Israel.

I think that's where it was always going to be aimed, but Iran watched themselves elevated to a world player by threatening Israel, and they like that because it fits their vision of Iran. It's worked to well for them...and look how energized their youth are! If only they can turn that love of their country towards a common enemy, right?

[maven]

I think that's where it was always going to be aimed, but Iran watched themselves elevated to a world player by threatening Israel, and they like that because it fits their vision of Iran. It's worked to well for them...and look how energized their youth are! If only they can turn that love of their country towards a common enemy, right?Let's keep our fingers on the triggers eh Redcake?.....as always.
Shravan, the only reason they want nukes is to threaten Israel, and if they got them every Sunni regime in the region would have to have them.

[shravan]

I think that's where it was always going to be aimed,
but Iran watched themselves elevated to a world player by threatening Israel,

Thats how you survive in middle east. You cannot show weakness.

and they like that because it fits their vision of Iran. It's worked to well for them...and look how energized their youth are! If only they can turn that love of their country towards a common enemy, right?

Then there should be no protest in Iran. Why are the people supporting Mousavi.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was the one who wanted to wipe Israel off the map.

[Madeline]

Let's keep our fingers on the triggers eh Redcake?.....as always.
Shravan, the only reason they want nukes is to threaten Israel, and if they got them every Sunni regime in the region would have to have them.
Absolutely. The reasons may vary, but they hate Israel/Jews more than any Sunni.

[shravan]

Shravan, the only reason they want nukes is to threaten Israel, and if they got them every Sunni regime in the region would have to have them.

BBC ON THIS DAY | 7 | 1981: Israel bombs Baghdad nuclear reactor (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/7/newsid_3014000/3014623.stm)

Israelis 'blew apart Syrian nuclear cache' - Times Online (www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2461421.ece)

[redcake]

Then there should be no protest in Iran. Why are the people supporting Mousavi.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was the one who wanted to wipe Israel off the map.


Sorry, I was channeling how this may be empowering for the dictatorship, and how they may see this as a positive endorsement of their track.

Though I don't think the people are supporting Mousavi because of his stance in dealing with the Zionists. As I understand it, they like his Domestic policies.

[shravan]

Absolutely. The reasons may vary, but they hate Israel/Jews more than any Sunni.

Are Jews Killing Shia's. Just search for 'Shia mosque bombed'

[shravan]

Madeline,

There are no Sunni Mosques in Tehran. But you will find synagogues in Tehran.

[Madeline]

Madeline,

There are no Sunni Mosques in Tehran. But you will find synagogues in Tehran.

Ah, for those who are left over from the Holocaust that never happened. I see...;)

[shravan]

Ah, for those who are left over from the Holocaust that never happened. I see...;)

I was answering to this reply of yours - but they hate Israel/Jews more than any Sunni.

[Mediocrates]

Maven,

Do you have any idea how Iran democracy works ?

slightly less efficiently than the department of motor vehicles. which also results in riots, fires, scattered teeth, tears, and all kinds of shouting in weird guttural languages.

[maven]

IMPORTANT MESSAGE.

All members of the forum interested in Iran should have hankerchiefs or tissues to hand for Friday Prayers which will be broadcast live on multiple International News Channels from Tehran University tomorrow.

No shoes to be thrown as all shoes are left outside.

Watch in awe as the Supreme Leader of Iran gives his 'Sermon on the Mount' to bring magical unity and sexual healing to the befuddled masses of Iranistan; those poor souls who are ever tortured by evil Zionist Jews blocking drains, installing millions of illegal sattelite dishes throughout the Islamic Republic (without the permission of the users), disguising themselves in the dead bodies of al Quaida Arabs in order to blow up Shia mosques in S. Iran, causing pregnant women to be ill in the mornings and poor innocent children to lose their baby teeth.

Cry along with liberals and the left throughout the globe at how this great self-flagellating nation will show a real spirit of democracy to put the West to shame.

(Ayotollah Ali Khamenei is 167 years old and author of the bestseller :stick: "How to Hate A Jew On 5$ a Day.")

[shravan]

http://s2.buzzfeed.com/static/imagebuzz/terminal01/2009/6/15/14/how-iran-works-3160-1245089753-17.jpg

[redcake]

Sorry, I was channeling how this may be empowering for the dictatorship, and how they may see this as a positive endorsement of their track.


Well that was predictable.

[maven]

MIRACULOUS IMPECCABLE SPEECH OF SAEED AYOTOLLAH ALI KNOMENEI.

Countless millions of reverential observers throught the world wept and gazed
in admiration as the Supreme Leader of Iran told the world the real truth about
war, sickness, poverty and strife. He clearly stripped away the lies about Iran,
and expressed on behalf of the Iranian Nation the anger with the real enemy
of all the peoples of the world; the origins of all criminality, all corruption and all
ilness, abuse, marital and automobile failures, climate change and global warming
and all sadnesses of the Islamic people of Iran including hair loss, and all the
failures of the people of the world which is the evil, satanic Zionist entity and her
agents Britain and the United States.
Long Live The Islamic Revolution!



Official response from The Peoples Front Of Judea:
CLICK FULL SCREEN:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lioa32bYvjU

[Mediocrates]

He also blamed the Jews and the BBC. Whereas everyone else is blaming the US.

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/06/19/dirty-zionists-and-the-bad-british-radio/

[maven]

He also blamed the Jews and the BBC. Whereas everyone else is blaming the US.

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/06/19/dirty-zionists-and-the-bad-british-radio/Why would he single out the US led by what the hardliners consider to be an appeasing pussy? Nope, he went for Britain particularly because there is anger in the regime about the new BBC Farsi service TV News Channel which is very popular in Iran. But he really blamed the Jews who dominate the whole world while eating falafel at the same time. Quite a trick eh?

[maven]

Mousavi isn't a regime change. Now we have reached the point where that view will be tested.

Will mousavi leave Iran as invited by the Supreme Leader? Or will he go on with the demonstrations? If he does he is directly opposing the regime.

[Yala]

The Ayatollah did say a few honest words:

Enemies and dirty Zionists tried to show the election as a contest between the regime and against it. That is not true, all four candidates support the regime.” (He lists the government positions of the opposition candidates). All of the candidates are part of this system and regime.


Maybe Mousavi has changed. Maybe he realized that the revolution is not good for the people and they need another. There are other architects of the Islamic Revolution who have said similar things and were then marginalized. The more likely scenario is that Mousavi and Rafsanjani felt their power eroding and a revolution is the only way they can get it back.

[Mediocrates]

The revolution will not be televised....

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/earticle/7025/

The problem of political leadership signals another, more unwelcome, comparison with 1979. Back then Iran had one of the most powerful and sophisticated working-class and left-wing movements in the developing world. There were impassioned and principled debates about what direction the revolution against the Shah should take. In the end, however, much of the left effectively handed the leadership of the mass movement over to Ayatollah Khomeini and the Islamic reactionaries. Their reward was to be wiped out by the Islamic Republic. There has been little sign of any independent political opposition within Iran since.

The result is that all of the nominal leaders of the opposition today are in fact insiders, internal dissidents from the Islamic regime. Presidential challenger Mousavi was prime minister under Khomeini’s leadership from 1981 to 1989, running the country through most of its bloody and destructive war with Iraq. One of his major backers, Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, is a conservative pillar of the Islamist establishment who was twice president from 1989 to 1997. Meanwhile Mohsen Rezaie, another of the presidential candidates leading demands for an electoral re-run, was for 16 years the commander of the Revolutionary Guards, the regime’s stick to beat down opponents.

[maven]

Next stage is the mass repression of the Mousavi supporters by the regime.

Now if the media is correct and the vast majority of the protestors are basically in support of the Islamic regime then a severe beating is what they need in order to help them mature. There is always a next time in the revolution business.

So Go Basejis go!

Marg Barg Iran!

[Yala]

Now if the media is correct and the vast majority of the protestors are basically in support of the Islamic regime

The "media" has absolutely no clue what's going on. A real journalist would be embarrassed at how he/she has been replaced by Twitter for G-d's sake. The media has proven itself to be absolutely worthless at reporting, as well as at analysis.

[Kachah]

Iran cannot possibly stage a true revolution. Due to the relatively warm climate the Iranian GULAGs are not harsh enough to digest one generation of revolutionaries after another. So they survive and end up sorting out which way is the only true revolutionary one in the street clashes.

[maven]

Iran cannot possibly stage a true revolution. Due to the relatively warm climate the Iranian GULAGs are not harsh enough to digest one generation of revolutionaries after another. So they survive and end up sorting out which way is the only true revolutionary one in the street clashes.We will see, the main limitation on the Iranian mind is Islam. The problem is that Mousavi is a merely an extension of the past (at least that is what the media is telling us) and a real revolution would have to overthrow him as well.

[maven]

The "media" has absolutely no clue what's going on. A real journalist would be embarrassed at how he/she has been replaced by Twitter for G-d's sake. The media has proven itself to be absolutely worthless at reporting, as well as at analysis.Well said Yala, I agree with that wholeheartedly......the game is not over yet, if we are lucky the regime will go down now but if they don't then the next time around the people wont have this residual affection for the Islamic Revolution.

[Kachah]

Just watched the news on TV - there were street rallies of Iranians here in Sydney.
Well, I can only see that my half-joking suggestion about the whole thing being a plot to sell Mousavi as a "western democrat-people's choice" is more serious that I'd thought. People are running around with these green ribbons and crap chanting Mousavi's name as in some "orange revolution" or whatever they called it recently in the ex-Soviet breakaway republics. THis triggers instant support of the Western public (as every protest against the oppression should, really) - problem is, ARE they protesting against oppression or it's a form of oppressive tyranny's deception of the well-wishing West?
They've interviewed people in the street (Iranian migrants) who clearly are not on the money at all, they speak of Mousavi as one would of Ghandi or Mother Teresa.
Something's fishy.

[shravan]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jGSJEAPs_r2T2wxsL5G3t4z-jajQD98U9L6O0
Iran's leader: End protests or risk `bloodshed'

By ALI AKBAR DAREINI and BRIAN MURPHY – 1 hour ago
TEHRAN, Iran (AP) — Iran's supreme leader sought to end the deepening crisis over disputed elections with one decisive speech — declaring the vote will almost certainly stand and sternly warning opposition leaders to end street protests or be held responsible for any "bloodshed and chaos" to come.
The sharp line drawn by Iran's most powerful figure, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, presents important tests for opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi.
Mousavi now must examine his willingness to challenge the Islamic leadership he once served as prime minister. There are further questions about his ability to control his own followers, who are waiting for a clear response to Khamenei's edict before a rally planned for Saturday.
But a first sign of possible resistance came shortly after nightfall Friday in Tehran. Cries of "Death to the dictator!" and "Allahu akbar" — "God is great" — rang from rooftops in what's become a nightly ritual of opposition unity.
is a gambit that pushes Iran's opposition to a pivotal moment: either back down or risk a crushing response from police and the forces at Khamenei's disposal — the powerful Revolutionary Guard and their volunteer citizen militia, the Basij.
It also presents important tests for opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi.
He now must examine his willingness to challenge the Islamic leadership he once served as prime minister. There are further questions about his ability to control his own followers, who are waiting for a clear response to Khamenei's edict before a rally planned for Saturday.
Since the June 12 election, Mousavi has become the figurehead for a broad collection of demonstrators — from the most liberal-leaning reformists to religious conservatives — brought together by claims that fraud was behind the landslide re-election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
Some could be prepared to take their protests to the limit. Many others, however, have no interest in an all-out mutiny against the country's Islamic system and know authorities have the tools to strike back without mercy.
Khamenei was blunt about what a wider fight would bring — warning those who "want to ignore the law or break the law" will face the consequences.
"They will be held accountable for all the violence, bloodshed and rioting," he told tens of thousands of people gathered for Friday prayers at Tehran University for a speech that was broadcast around Iran and the world.
Police clashed with protesters in running battles around Tehran immediately after the election and the Basij militia had a reported role in attacks at the university. Gunfire from a Basij compound in Tehran also left at least seven people dead Monday.
Khamenei even offered muted criticism of security forces, saying he objected to "misconducts" such as attacks on students.
But the full force of the police and Revolutionary Guard has remained in check. And this was Khamenei's implicit message since the Guard and the vast volunteer militia force it controls is under direct command of the ruling clerics.
As he concluded his sermon, Khamenei invoked the names of Shiite saints and began weeping.
Among the worshippers sitting on the carpeted floor of the mammoth prayer hall was Ahmadinejad in a tan jacket and one of his three election rivals, former Revolutionary Guard commander Mohsen Rezaei. Crowds spilled into the campus.
Mousavi and candidate Mahdi Karroubi, the only cleric in the race, were not shown on state TV coverage and apparently did not attend.
Iranian authorities have placed strict limits on the ability of foreign media to cover recent events, banning reporting from the street and allowing only phone interviews and information from officials sources such as state TV.
"The Islamic state would not cheat and would not betray the vote of the people," said Khamenei, standing on a raised platform decorated with Quranic verses and flanked by flowers.
He went on to effectively declare Ahmadinejad the winner, calling the election an "absolute victory." He left open a remote chance that the overall outcome could come under question by the Guardian Council, an unelected body of 12 clerics and Islamic law experts close to the supreme leader. The council investigates voter fraud claims.
The council has said it was prepared to conduct a limited recount of ballots at sites where candidates claim irregularities. It not clear, however, if they have initiated any probes.
A spokesman for Mousavi said Friday the opposition leader is not under arrest but is not allowed to speak to journalists or stand at a microphone at rallies. Iranian filmmaker Mohsen Makhmalbaf told the AP from Paris it's even becoming difficult to reach people close to Mousavi. He said he has not heard from Mousavi's camp since Khamenei's address.
Mousavi has showed backbone in pressing his claims of election irregularities. But he would be an unlikely rebel against the entire state.
His roots in the Islamic leadership date to the early years after the 1979 Islamic Revolution. He served as prime minister in the 1980s when Khamenei was president — a point the supreme leader made in his address.
The anger over the alleged vote-rigging "has coalesced behind Mousavi," said Michael Hanna, a Middle East analyst based in New York.
"But all the main protagonists are figures from within the establishment of the Islamic Republic," he said. "It doubtful whether Mousavi (and his political backers) are really out to overturn the basic structures and underpinnings of the Islamic Republic.
.
.
.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jGSJEAPs_r2T2wxsL5G3t4z-jajQD98U9L6O0

[Yala]

They've interviewed people in the street (Iranian migrants) who clearly are not on the money at all, they speak of Mousavi as one would of Ghandi or Mother Teresa.


Hate to break it to you but Ghandi and Mother Teresa weren't that great either.

Maybe Mousavi will pull a Gorbachev.

[shravan]

Hate to break it to you but Ghandi and Mother Teresa weren't that great either.

I echo your views. And the latter one I hated even more. Still people harvest souls....:unsure:

[Yala]

I echo your views. And the latter one I hated even more. Still people harvest souls....:unsure:

It's sad that in 2009 people are still so into hero worship.

[shravan]

It's sad that in 2009 people are still so into hero worship.

Here we have democracy in Gods also. We can elect/pray our own Hero/God. You might call us Pagan but still better that a doctrine religion.

[Madeline]

From being offended my ones religion back to the subject at hand...but, perhaps would one see Mother Theresa in a different light if she would have been a heathen handing out food...not that I am a fan?

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/

[shravan]

needless death... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjQxq5N--Kc

[shravan]

From being offended my ones religion

I go to mosque ever week and when I was in school the prayers ended by saying "in the name of the father son and the holy spirit" and we had a Jew Neighbor.

perhaps would one see Mother Theresa in a different light if she would have been a heathen handing out food...not that I am a fan?

And Harvesting the Souls...:D

[maven]

The regime is on the way out, the people are calling for the death of the Supreme Leader. Will it fall from an internal coup? Or will the people bring it down?

Khamenei is now making war on the people, twenty people killed yesterday, Ahmedinejad has been sidelined. Mousavi is in the wings.

[shravan]

The regime is on the way out, the people are calling for the death of the Supreme Leader. Will it fall from an internal coup? Or will the people bring it down?

Khamenei is now making war on the people, twenty people killed yesterday, Ahmedinejad has been sidelined. Mousavi is in the wings.

This are tough questions to answer.

Obama is supporting the protesters and the protesters know that which complicates things more.

Iraq and Afghanistan are occupied by American forces.

[shravan]

IRAN Tehran 21 june 2009 Protests (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF_y1W4MbQY)

Riot police tackle Iran protests (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWzTEZQk1Hs)

Iranian Girl shot dead in IRAN! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjQxq5N--Kc)

Iranian died in cold blood caution graphic video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Jrcajr3cTk)

Tehran, Iran JUNE 20th, The most Tear Gased used in the past week. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTu2q1ItDz4)

[savvy]

The regime is on the way out, the people are calling for the death of the Supreme Leader. Will it fall from an internal coup? Or will the people bring it down?

Khamenei is now making war on the people, twenty people killed yesterday, Ahmedinejad has been sidelined. Mousavi is in the wings.

Pajamijihad keeps telling the U.S. and U.K. not to interfere, I wonder what he's going to do? Call Russia or China? I hope not.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSLL412609

[maven]

Disturbing news from france 24 Newschannel quoting an expert on Iran's clerical elite saying that Mosavi supporter Ayatollah Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani is plotting a coup to strenghten the Islamic regime by using his power as leader of the Expediencey council to overthrow the Supreme leader and appoint in his a place a guardian group which will replace the Guardian council.

The concern of everyone supporting the protests is that Mousavi and others may not deliver the democracy the protestors want but yet another version albeit 'reformed' of the Islamic Republic.

[Mediocrates]

As if that was a question? Everyone thinks that when this is done it will become the People's Free Democratic Republic of iPod. How wrong and painfully naive they are.

[savvy]

The Iranians I talk to , tell me that they know Mosavi isn't all that great, but he's the lesser evil, who permits freedom of speech, and they say that's all the Iranian people need to topple the entire regime. The Dems on the hand want Obama to stay out of Iran, because "free speech" and human rights is a neo-con value, that's not for everyone. So said one CNN commentor.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090622/pl_afp/iranpoliticsus

[Mediocrates]

I speak only for me. I honestly don't care. I look at all of this with the bemused detachment of driving past a car wreck. Not only that, but I don't care how it turns out because for my purposes, it won't turn out much differently for MY agenda and for what I value.

Does anyone believe that somehow all the ayatollahs will leave and Iran turn to resemble something quite like Amsterdam or Buenos Aires? Or do they believe that even if the regime is toppled it will resemble something more like Chechnya or Somalia which is more probable. And when it does, what will the price of oil be? How much more of your money are you going to ship to Saudi Arabia and with fully three contiguous nations; Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan (a nuclear state) coming apart at every nail to say nothing of Iraq, Syria and Lebanon how much 'freedom' can one place take?

[savvy]

If the Arab nations wanted freedom so bad, they would have it by now. I don't know how things are going to turn out in Iran, but the people there don't seem to be giving up on what they believe in. BTW where is the UN now?

[shravan]

If the Arab nations wanted freedom so bad, they would have it by now. I don't know how things are going to turn out in Iran, but the people there don't seem to be giving up on what they believe in. BTW where is the UN now?

Most of the Arab Nations Sleep with America. And the ones which misbehave gets flogged....;)

[shravan]

Iran: Who's Diddling Democracy? (http://www.truthout.org/061809J)

[Toadstool46]

All I can say is that if Israel wanted a perfect oportunity to strike the unranium refinement they should do it now.

The country is all in an uproar and rightfully so.. Hit the uranium refineries and the people will be even more furious at their present dictator.

A guy I work with quite often, who is Iranian, is beside himself with the goings on in his native country. He say's at least the world knows that the views of his people are not the views of the present mad man in power.

[shravan]

All I can say is that if Israel wanted a perfect oportunity to strike the unranium refinement they should do it now.

In doing that Israel will help them to become united.


A guy I work with quite often, who is Iranian, is beside himself with the goings on in his native country. He say's at least the world knows that the views of his people are not the views of the present mad man in power.

The Person (President) who speaks does not control the military.

[redcake]

Yeah but the desire for a Democracy is on the table, in a region where such an idea was previously shot down as being a Western imperialist concept. I mean, Obama might substitute the word Democracy for Justice, but it's more than justice that they want. A recount, and a Mousavi in power will not do it.

Chances are they're just being played by the government, but what we're seeing for the first time is a desire of people from all walks of life and ideologies to see a free Iran, free of an Islamic dictatorship. There is finally a conscious acknowledgement of the human rights abuses in Iran (finally!) and an awareness of how the people feel, and how dire the situation is. Nobody humanized Iraqis that way and ever gave them empathy.

That said, Israel's hands are now tied...if they do not maneuver from the inside, during this turmoil (and it appears they're not), forget a military strike with large scale Iranian casualties.

[takeo]

Yeah but the desire for a Democracy is on the table, in a region where such an idea was previously shot down as being a Western imperialist concept. I mean, Obama might substitute the word Democracy for Justice, but it's more than justice that they want. A recount, and a Mousavi in power will not do it.

Chances are they're just being played by the government, but what we're seeing for the first time is a desire of people from all walks of life and ideologies to see a free Iran, free of an Islamic dictatorship. There is finally a conscious acknowledgement of the human rights abuses in Iran (finally!) and an awareness of how the people feel, and how dire the situation is. Nobody humanized Iraqis that way and ever gave them empathy.

That said, Israel's hands are now tied...if they do not maneuver from the inside, during this turmoil (and it appears they're not), forget a military strike with large scale Iranian casualties.


Nothing new that's what I've been telling you for years. Iranians don't like the regime (which doesn't mean they want the us to colonise them like Iraq!) And it's not because you don't see Iraqi's or Arabs as human beings that they aren't or that others feel that way. Iraqi's too are human beings and if you threat them like animals they will fight you, just like any other human being would.

[Madeline]

by redcake:
Yeah but the desire for a Democracy is on the table, in a region where such an idea was previously shot down as being a Western imperialist concept. I mean, Obama might substitute the word Democracy for Justice, but it's more than justice that they want. A recount, and a Mousavi in power will not do it.

Chances are they're just being played by the government, but what we're seeing for the first time is a desire of people from all walks of life and ideologies to see a free Iran, free of an Islamic dictatorship. There is finally a conscious acknowledgment of the human rights abuses in Iran (finally!) and an awareness of how the people feel, and how dire the situation is. Nobody humanized Iraqis that way and ever gave them empathy.

Yes indeed, and my heart goes out to these people. Freedom is a basic...and God given human right, and their desire for it speaks volumes.
Anyone who does not acknowledge this is nothing but a dumb... little tweeb without a conscience. Those who find excuses for, and sympathize with these tyrants should not have the chance to voice their opinion in kind, for else they show themselves to be the hypocrites they are.

[redcake]

And it's not because you don't see Iraqi's or Arabs as human beings that they aren't or that others feel that way. Iraqi's too are human beings and if you threat them like animals they will fight you, just like any other human being would.

If you have a language barrier and do not understand a post, you're welcome to ask us to clarify. It was very clear that I was speaking about the dehumanizing that Leftists (you included) had to do in order to believe Iraqis didn't want freedom, and were being violated when the Baathist regime was removed.

There is now no question, Iranians want one of two things.... a full Democracy, not defined by opposition to the US, Israel, or the Western World in general....or a return to the 1979 Kohmeni revolution fantasy in a sort of twist on returning to their Islamic Revolution values. Whatever the case, we can't help but root for people to be free from the current brutal regimes policies. We see people on the streets, and it's hard not to be touched. Nobody really cared about the safety of Iraqis or rooted for them to achieve freedom. Most Americans were just busy chastising the US for disrupting Iraqi lives. So naive.

Of course, Takeo is the person arguing that Iranian Jews aren't persecuted...and now this week, the whole world recognizes with video evidence, the persecution of ALL Iranians. No wonder Takeo confused by this all.

[Mediocrates]

No the raw truth is that the protesting middle class doesn't care who is in charge for the most part and would just as soon live under the radar. Democracy is overrated and unnecessary for people who will use it as a tool of repression anyhow. Look at Hamas.

And if a few hundred people are rounded up and disappeared, so what? If it's nacht und nebel? Ok. They don't care, I don't care either.

[takeo]

redcake

If you have a language barrier and do not understand a post, you're welcome to ask us to clarify. It was very clear that I was speaking about the dehumanizing that Leftists (you included) had to do in order to believe Iraqis didn't want freedom, and were being violated when the Baathist regime was removed.

Yes they were being violated. You will still find out that the large majority of Iraqi's is opposed to the US-presence and that most agree to attacks against American occupation troops. Which doesn't mean they liked Saddam.
It's not because they didn't like Saddam that they believe the US had the right to invade their country.


There is now no question, Iranians want one of two things.... a full Democracy, not defined by opposition to the US, Israel, or the Western World in general....

Yes, most (not all, in Iran too they have their version of the bible belt were most people support islamists) Iranians want democracy, or at least a removal of the regime. BUT it doesn't mean they are pro-US, that's also very clear. The banner of the revolution was the green of Islam, not the US-flag...
If the US would invade Iran, as some on this forum foolishly proposed, you will find out that all Iranians will fight you. As they did fight Iraq during the 80 s when Mousavi was prime minister. And nearly all Iranians I spoke also condamn the Shah-regime and US-involvement in Iranian politics, noone wants to return to those times either.


or a return to the 1979 Kohmeni revolution fantasy in a sort of twist on returning to their Islamic Revolution values.

They don't want that, but they also don't want to return to the pre-1967 period.

Whatever the case, we can't help but root for people to be free from the current brutal regimes policies.

true, Iranians have been oppressed by the Shah and the current regimes. But Saudi, Egyptians, etc. are also being oppressed, by regimes close to the US. And of course Palestinians too are being oppressed, by Israel. Why can't you feel empathy for them as well? Israel killed 1000 s of them but that doesn't seem to bother you at all. Besides, because of that, you will have a hard time finding an Iranian sympathetic to Israel. (NOT because they are anti-semitic, but because of the fate of the palestinians)


We see people on the streets, and it's hard not to be touched. Nobody really cared about the safety of Iraqis or rooted for them to achieve freedom. Most Americans were just busy chastising the US for disrupting Iraqi lives. So naive.

The US government too didn't care about Iraqi lives, if not they would not have invaded Iraq. Once again, it doesn't mean because people suffer from a bad regime that they want a foreign invasion... it's not because you suffer from cancer that you prefere AIDS instead... if you would have invaded Iran, there would be no doubt that all those people in the streets of Tehran would take up their arms to fight to aggressors.



Of course, Takeo is the person arguing that Iranian Jews aren't persecuted...and now this week, the whole world recognizes with video evidence, the persecution of ALL Iranians. No wonder Takeo confused by this all.


If you read my posts about Iran, you would have seen that I always said that the majority of young urbanites in Iran oppose the regime. But I equally said the regime is not as oppressive as many Arab regimes or US allies. If anything like that would have happened in Egypt or Saudi Arabia (or in Pinochet's Chile, a regime defended by some on this site) there would have been much more bloodshet.(there are no elections to begin with in Saudi Arabia)

Also, it's not a coincidence that Mousavi presented himself as the Iranian Obama. Obama is popular in the Muslim world. If anyone would have presented himself as the Iranian Bush (Moussavi said Ahmadinejad was the Iranian Bush) he would have received very little votes, everyone hates Bush, not only in Iran but troughout the region and far beyond.

[takeo]

No the raw truth is that the protesting middle class doesn't care who is in charge for the most part and would just as soon live under the radar. Democracy is overrated and unnecessary for people who will use it as a tool of repression anyhow. Look at Hamas.

And if a few hundred people are rounded up and disappeared, so what? If it's nacht und nebel? Ok. They don't care, I don't care either.

Palestinians voted for Hamas because they were disappoihnted by the peace-proces, that's also why Israeli voted for Netanyahu. You think democracy in Israel should be abolished?

[shravan]

It's not because they didn't like Saddam that they believe the US had the right to invade their country.

America had the right to invade. We have gone over this.


If the US would invade Iran, as some on this forum foolishly proposed, you will find out that all Iranians will fight you.

You are jealous of America. And I never said Iran would be invaded. But Obama can play a important part in the revolution.

U.S. policies led to Iran revolt, study says
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/17/world/fg-shah17

A report based on declassified documents suggests that the Nixon and Ford administrations, angry with the shah for his support for raising oil prices, worked to curb his ambitions.
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The report, after two years of research by scholar Andrew Scott Cooper, zeros in on the role of White House policymakers -- including Donald H. Rumsfeld, then a top aide to President Ford -- hoping to roll back oil prices and curb the shah's ambitions, despite warnings by then-Secretary of State Henry Kissinger that such a move might precipitate the rise of a "radical regime" in Iran.
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The report, based mostly on documents stored at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library in Ann Arbor, Mich., opens a window on an unruly period more than 30 years ago that precipitated Iran's 1979 Islamic Revolution, which established a template for religiously inspired Muslim movements throughout the Middle East.
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Chief among those advocating pressure on Iran was William Simon, who served as Treasury secretary and energy czar under the Nixon and Ford administrations. He blamed the shah for high oil prices and wanted the U.S. to use weapons sales to Tehran as leverage.
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Over the years, Kissinger advocated a friendlier line on Iran and the shah, who had been brought back to power by a U.S.-engineered coup in 1953. The report suggests that Kissinger had special insights into the country's instability. At the time, university campuses in Iran were in turmoil, and guerrillas were attacking U.S. facilities and assassinating key officials. Even in 1974, a CIA analysis sounded the alarm, saying the shah's ambitious buildup of the country was causing economic polarization and cultural clashes that were roiling Iran.
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But U.S. officials, especially Simon, had been working with Saudi officials behind the shah's back to seek help on oil prices in exchange for political and military support for the Arab kingdom. The Saudis stunned OPEC by announcing at a December summit in Doha, Qatar, that they would boost production to 11.6 million barrels a day from 8.6 million barrels, driving down prices.
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http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/17/world/fg-shah17
--------------

[Yala]

It was very clear that I was speaking about the dehumanizing that Leftists (you included) had to do in order to believe Iraqis didn't want freedom, and were being violated when the Baathist regime was removed.

Nobody really cared about the safety of Iraqis or rooted for them to achieve freedom. Most Americans were just busy chastising the US for disrupting Iraqi lives. So naive.

This is because extreme leftists think democracy should be reserved for the white man. They believe dictatorships are part of the culture of the brown man and this "culture" should be respected. In their eyes all "cultures" are equal, even if this includes women wearing a sheet or not being allowed to drive or go to college.

In Dr. Nafisi's book she explained how the secular communists who helped overthrow the Shah and were later rewarded by being murdered by the tens of thousands by the Ayatollahs, started arguing in favor the veil. She spoke of one communist professor in particular who was a (so-called) feminist but argued in favor of it!

By the way these leftists also say today that the US and the West should stay out of the brown man's affairs and let them do whatever they want, except if these brown people happen to be Jews. In that case they must be told, ordered and threatened into doing what the West wants them to do.

Of course, *** is the person arguing that Iranian Jews aren't persecuted...and now this week, the whole world recognizes with video evidence, the persecution of ALL Iranians. No wonder **** confused by this all.

Just replace the *** with Roger Cohen of the NY Times. He emphatically argued that Iranian Jews are treated fairly in Iran and that the Mullah regime was not evil or crazy, but was fair also. I will try to find the money quotes and add them.

[shravan]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8118783.stm

Separately, nearly two thirds of MPs appear to have stayed away from President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's election victory party.

All 290 MPs were invited to attend the party, Iran's press reports, but only 105 turned up. An earlier BBC report wrongly reported that 105 did not attend.

One of those who reportedly failed to turn up was Parliament Speaker Ali Larijani, a high-profile figure who shares some of Mr Ahmadinejad's hardline views but has been critical of some aspects of the government's handling of the protests.

About 50 MPs are reformist and would not have been expected to attend the victory party

But the high number of MPs who stayed away is another indication that the disputed election has split the nation, says the BBC's Jeremy Bowen in Tehran.

President Ahmadinejad on Thursday criticised US President Barack Obama for his condemnation earlier this week of the violence in Iran.

"Our question is why he fell into this trap and said things that previously [former US President George W] Bush used to say," he was quoted by the semi-official Fars news agency as saying.

The Guardian Council, which supervises elections, has already said it will not re-run the election.

Ayatollah Khamenei reiterated on Wednesday that he would "not yield" over the election result.

[takeo]

shravan

America had the right to invade. We have gone over this.

of course they didn't have that right, we have indeed gone over this. For an invasion you need UNSC approval. Chief UN inspector Blix said himself the invasion was based on blatant lies.


You are jealous of America.

No, really not. I would never want to live there.



And I never said Iran would be invaded.
But Obama can play a important part in the revolution.

others did, many on this site.


Obama can indeed play a role, but he has to be cautious, the moment Iranians will believe the propaganda on state television that the street riots are masterminded in Washington the support will be over. The reformers want better relations with the West, but they certainly don't want to be seen as Western puppets. Obama can offer Iran better relations, as he did, if Ahmadinejad refuses that offer, it will undermine his internal position in Iran. Than people will see who's responsible for the bad relations, which have economic implications. But if the US returns to the aggressive retorics of the past, than it will be in the advantage of the conservatives.

[shravan]

of course they didn't have that right, we have indeed gone over this. For an invasion you need UNSC approval. Chief UN inspector Blix said himself the invasion was based on blatant lies.

Good you remember. Now check it again.


No, really not. I would never want to live there.

You like to be controlled. Naughty Guy....:rolleyes:

HU Jintao or Putin....:p



Obama can indeed play a role, but he has to be cautious, the moment Iranians will believe the propaganda on state television that the street riots are masterminded in Washington the support will be over.

If Washington was behind then there would be no riots. There would be guns instead of stones.


The reformers want better relations with the West, but they certainly don't want to be seen as Western puppets. Obama can offer Iran better relations, as he did, if Ahmadinejad refuses that offer, it will undermine his internal position in Iran. Than people will see who's responsible for the bad relations, which have economic implications. But if the US returns to the aggressive retorics of the past, than it will be in the advantage of the conservatives.

If Iran is important for them in Af-Pak then they will do anything to make Iran a Pro-Western Country.

[takeo]

shravan

Good you remember. Now check it again.

I did, and you're very wrong. (anyway this discussion is too easy the whole world including the US public opinion already knows this war was very wrong)



You like to be controlled. Naughty Guy....:rolleyes:

HU Jintao or Putin....:p

I prefere to live in Western Europe instead. But Russia or China aren't the worst countries either. I wouldn't like the christian majority (nor the mullahs or the BJP) to decide when and how I can drink alcohol, have sex and whether or not I should keep my child...

If Washington was behind then there would be no riots. There would be guns instead of stones.

and in that case noone would support it.



If Iran is important for them in Af-Pak then they will do anything to make Iran a Pro-Western Country.

Very recently the us government came to that conclusion, yes.

[shravan]

I did, and you're very wrong. (anyway this discussion is too easy the whole world including the US public opinion already knows this war was very wrong)

Ok I agree with you. But Suddam had gone mad. And America takes Sharia Law seriously. He had to be punished....:D

But Russia or China aren't the worst countries either.
I really like you fantasies....;)

I wouldn't like the christian majority (nor the mullahs or the BJP) to decide when and how I can drink alcohol, have sex and whether or not I should keep my child...

But you still like China.

BJP is the worst Pro hindu party.

I agree.

and in that case noone would support it.

They have done in the past.


Very recently the us government came to that conclusion, yes.

God Bless Iran.

Cheney has great plans for India in the future....:(

[redcake]

You will still find out that the large majority of Iraqi's is opposed to the US-presence and that most agree to attacks against American occupation troops.

Iraqi's are looking forward to reclaiming their sovereignty. They are showing hints of a new thriving society which enjoys voting, with equal representation. Iraqi was a success. You're going to have cope with that reality and stop pushing the lie that Iraqis support the Iranian backed insurgency.

They don't want that, but they also don't want to return to the pre-1967 period.

I don't think you have a clue what they want, because I don't think even Iranians know what they want. A Western Democracy isn't really their goal, but neither is being at the opposite end of the spectrum from the United States.



true, Iranians have been oppressed by the Shah and the current regimes. But Saudi, Egyptians, etc. are also being oppressed, by regimes close to the US. And of course Palestinians too are being oppressed, by Israel. Why can't you feel empathy for them as well? Israel killed 1000 s of them but that doesn't seem to bother you at all. Besides, because of that, you will have a hard time finding an Iranian sympathetic to Israel. (NOT because they are anti-semitic, but because of the fate of the palestinians)

Do you want to defend your need to distract from the topic? Iranians are uprising for their freedoms, they're not sitting around contrasting and comparing themselves to life inside Egypt... Arab totalitarianism is really inconsequential. Iranians aren't exactly thrilled at the gobs of cash being thrown at proxy armies against Israel....and you've clearly never talked to Irnians after all if you think they're outright anti-Israel.


The US government too didn't care about Iraqi lives, if not they would not have invaded Iraq.

That's just stupid. Sitting complacent with your head in the sane is not an expression of care. I can only imagine what twisted family issues you must have to come up with that one.



Also, it's not a coincidence that Mousavi presented himself as the Iranian Obama.

Fiction. He wasn't the one using Obama's slogans.

[Brody15]

If this outcome of two thirds of the people of Iran voting for Ahmedinejad is true then Obama needs to understand that this is not to be rewarded, rather we need to look at strenghtening sanctions and making preparations for attack.


Exactly. Obama is coming off as weak. The leaders in the middle east value strength and eat the weak.

I hope we can all realize that talking to IRan is like talking to a bee hive.

[maven]

Iranian Cleric Says Protesters Should Be Harshly Punished
By VOA News
26 June 2009



Ayatollah Ahmad Khatami delivers Friday prayer sermon, at Tehran University campus, 26 Jun 2009
A senior Iranian cleric has called on the government to harshly punish leaders of the country's post-election protests.

In a sermon at Tehran University on Friday, Ahmad Khatami said rioters should be dealt with cruelly and without mercy. He also accused foreign journalists of fomenting the demonstrations.

Authorities have cracked down on massive protests led by defeated presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi, who alleges the vote was rigged. At least 17 people have been killed in clashes with security forces and hundreds have been detained.

Friday, Iran's top legislative body rejected allegations of fraud, calling the disputed June 12 presidential election the cleanest vote the country has ever had.

The official IRNA news agency said the Guardian Council found no major violations in the vote which declared incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad the winner by a large margin.

Both the Guardian Council and Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei have said the results will not be annulled.

Mousavi vowed on Thursday to resist pressure to end his challenge of the election outcome. He also urged supporters to continue protests in a way that will not create tension.

Friday, opposition supporters paid tribute to a young woman, Neda Agha Soltan, killed during demonstrations.

With the post-election demonstrations, Iran has seen the largest unrest since the 1979 Islamic Revolution.

Iranian authorities have been maintaining a heavy police presence in the streets to disperse crowds.

Iran's crackdown has included heavy restrictions on reporting and the arrest of university professors, journalists and ordinary citizens.

The official death toll from post-election violence is 17, but witnesses say it is much higher. State media reported Thursday that eight members of the pro-government Basij militia also were killed. The figures cannot be verified because Iran has severely restricted news organizations' abilities to report from the country.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-06-26-voa14.cfm

[shravan]

I did, and you're very wrong. (anyway this discussion is too easy the whole world including the US public opinion already knows this war was very wrong)


Just read the article. Thought you Might be interested.

Saddam bluffed about WMDs to fool Iran: FBI
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/US/Saddam-bluffed-about-WMDs-to-fool-Iran-FBI-/articleshow/4704478.cms
26 Jun 2009

NEW YORK: A secret FBI file has revealed that former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein had feared an Iranian attack on his country, more than an American one. The secret file claims that Saddam had bluffed about his country’s ‘weapons of mass destruction’ fearing an Iranian assault. The secret file codenamed ‘Desert Spider’ is a collection of FBI interrogations of the overthrown dictator, which were declassified after a Freedom of Information Act request. It revealed that Saddam Hussein had even considered asking ex-US President George W Bush for protection from its neighbouring country. “Iraq would have been extremely vulnerable to attack from Iran and would have sought a security agreement with the US to protect it from threats in the region,” Saddam said, according to the file. The records show how Saddam consistently denied any cooperation with the al-Qaida.

[maven]

Exactly. Obama is coming off as weak. The leaders in the middle east value strength and eat the weak.

I hope we can all realize that talking to IRan is like talking to a bee hive.You have to wonder where Obama's intention to talk to the Iranians is today. The Bush administration treated Iran as a pariah until towards the end of the President's term when to my mind anyway they undermined the US position and gave support to the Iranian leadership by engaging in fruitless discussions over Iraq.

Surely to enter into talks now will only help sustain and legitimise the Iranian regime over the bodies of the people who came out to demonstrate for their rights and freedoms?

[shravan]

Very recently the us government came to that conclusion, yes.

If you have time also read this. It is a masterpiece.
March 8, 1992
http://work.colum.edu/~amiller/wolfowitz1992.htm

[Madeline]

You have to wonder where Obama's intention to talk to the Iranians is today. The Bush administration treated Iran as a pariah until towards the end of the President's term when to my mind anyway they undermined the US position and gave support to the Iranian leadership by engaging in fruitless discussions over Iraq.

Surely to enter into talks now will only help sustain and legitimise the Iranian regime over the bodies of the people who came out to demonstrate for their rights and freedoms?

He is desperately looking for his teleprompter.

[shravan]

Exactly. Obama is coming off as weak.

No American President is weak.
Some use Ky Jelly. Some Don't.

[maven]

There is no point in engaging with a regime which can only exist by portraying the West as an enemy. Obama should forget about talking to Iran and instead assist financially in the mounting of an information and cyber war to end the regime.

[shravan]

Obama should forget about talking to Iran and instead assist financially in the mounting of an information and cyber war to end the regime.

Neda Agha Soltan.

[Mediocrates]

Well he wants to re establish diplomatic relations with Syria and Venezuela. Open discussions with Iran with no preconditions. Will be soon recognizing Hezbollah and Hamas. You don't have to be Leo Szilard to understand this.

[shravan]

Well he wants to re establish diplomatic relations with Syria and Venezuela. Open discussions with Iran with no preconditions. Will be soon recognizing Hezbollah and Hamas. You don't have to be Leo Szilard to understand this.

Extremis malis extrema remedia!!!

[Brody15]

You have to wonder where Obama's intention to talk to the Iranians is today. The Bush administration treated Iran as a pariah until towards the end of the President's term when to my mind anyway they undermined the US position and gave support to the Iranian leadership by engaging in fruitless discussions over Iraq.

Surely to enter into talks now will only help sustain and legitimise the Iranian regime over the bodies of the people who came out to demonstrate for their rights and freedoms?

Frustrating. These guys value power and despise weakness. Talking to them about lifting sanctions and what not, Obama is acting like the father who has his son in time out. You can come out of time out if you promise to be good. Meanwhile Iran is the kid who can't play nice no matter what you say, so get gets kicked out of the playground, goes home, listens to some heavy metal, and comes back to the schoolyard with a gun.

[Madeline]

Frustrating. These guys value power and despise weakness. Talking to them about lifting sanctions and what not, Obama is acting like the father who has his son in time out. You can come out of time out if you promise to be good. Meanwhile Iran is the kid who can't play nice no matter what you say, so get gets kicked out of the playground, goes home, listens to some heavy metal, and comes back to the schoolyard with a gun.

WASHINGTON - Iran spent nearly twice as much on U.S. imports during President Barack Obama's first months in office as it did during the same period in 2008, showing that despite trade penalties and tense relations, the two countries are still doing business.

The U.S. exported $96 million in goods to Iran from January through April, according to an Associated Press analysis of U.S. government trade data compiled by the World Institute for Strategic Economic Research in Holyoke, Mass. U.S. exports to Iran totaled $51 million during the same period in 2008 and $27 million over those months in 2007.

Soybeans, wheat and medical supplies — all considered humanitarian items exempt from U.S. trade sanctions — are among the top exports this year.
Story continues below ↓
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31474206/ns/business-world_business/

[shravan]

Madeline,

Israel's Tehran connection (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/apr/04/israelstehranconnection)

[Brody15]

WASHINGTON - Iran spent nearly twice as much on U.S. imports during President Barack Obama's first months in office as it did during the same period in 2008, showing that despite trade penalties and tense relations, the two countries are still doing business.

The U.S. exported $96 million in goods to Iran from January through April, according to an Associated Press analysis of U.S. government trade data compiled by the World Institute for Strategic Economic Research in Holyoke, Mass. U.S. exports to Iran totaled $51 million during the same period in 2008 and $27 million over those months in 2007.

Soybeans, wheat and medical supplies — all considered humanitarian items exempt from U.S. trade sanctions — are among the top exports this year.
Story continues below ↓
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31474206/ns/business-world_business/

The more paranoid side of me thinks Obama is "in" on something with Iran. More likely, he "thinks" hes in on something with Iran, but is gonna get bitten in the arse.
He also could have been trying to show good faith. Either way, wow, do I ever hope he learns his lesson.
What would be massively interesting is to see if his wimpy responses and trading with Iran continues, if so, I dont know what to think. Carter maybe?

[Mediocrates]

Madeline,

Israel's Tehran connection (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/apr/04/israelstehranconnection)


Those damn dirty Jews, how DARE they refuse to sit in the dark. It's amazing how Iran manages to find all those JEW_FREE computers too. Where DO they find them?

[Madeline]

The more paranoid side of me thinks Obama is "in" on something with Iran. More likely, he "thinks" hes in on something with Iran, but is gonna get bitten in the arse.
He also could have been trying to show good faith. Either way, wow, do I ever hope he learns his lesson.
What would be massively interesting is to see if his wimpy responses and trading with Iran continues, if so, I dont know what to think. Carter maybe?

Sadly, he is the one screwing us up, and we all have to learn the lesson.

...and Shravan, yes, we are all dependent on oil. Sadly, Israel does not have much of a choice at this time, whereas the U.S. does. All we have to do is change out our useless Congress and start drilling until we have alternatives.
Who knows, we probably have enough to send some to Israel. Betcha Bibi rather gets it from here than from those who deny the holocaust.

Does anyone see the hole that the useless left is digging is getting deeper and deeper?

[shravan]

Those damn dirty Jews, how DARE they refuse to sit in the dark. It's amazing how Iran manages to find all those JEW_FREE computers too. Where DO they find them?

?????????????????

[shravan]

Shravan, yes, we are all dependent on oil. Sadly, Israel does not have much of a choice at this time, whereas the U.S. does.

Fool me once Shame on You, Fool me twice Shame on Me.....;)

[takeo]

redcake

Iraqi's are looking forward to reclaiming their sovereignty. They are showing hints of a new thriving society which enjoys voting, with equal representation. Iraqi was a success. You're going to have cope with that reality and stop pushing the lie that Iraqis support the Iranian backed insurgency.

oh yeah a great succes. In Iran so far 20 people died in Iraq more than 100000 and still adding up.(last week alone over 200 casualties) And for sure the bodyguard industry and coffin industry is thriving in Iraq.
And the sunnite insurgency is not Iran backed at all. The government is Iran backed, all government prominents have resided in Iran for at least a few years and have the same ideology as the mullahs, shiite islamism. You don't understand anything about Arab politics and society. Kurds are independant in everything but name, and shiites and sunnites live strictly separated (the sunnite pro-Saddam tribes leaders bribed by the US to stop the insurgency, for now at least) Despite petrol $ billions there is still no steady electricity supply or a functioning society.
Iraq is NOT an example to anyone, especially not for Iranians. It's funny you're still supporting Bush' Iraqpolicy, whereas even most Americans and many republicans don't, no more.
Anyway, very bad for the Iraqi people but at least the world woke up, and saw that the US is potentially dangerous, and that fanatics can grap power in the West as well. The US hasn't been weaker and didn't have a worse image during the last decades than the last couple of years. p






I don't think you have a clue what they want, because I don't think even Iranians know what they want. A Western Democracy isn't really their goal, but neither is being at the opposite end of the spectrum from the United States.

1) Not all Iranians want the same. On the countryside and in cities like Qom people are fairly conservative and pro-government, in big cities like Tehran, Isfahan or Shiraz people are generally against the government and want a secular government.
2) most people don't want to be on the opposite end of the spectrum from the US, that's right, but neither do they want to be US-allies or US-puppets. They want normal good relations with the West, but still most Iranians support
an independant course. I remember when I was in Iran there was a great turnoil in Pakistan (musharaf took power) and Iranians were convinced the US was behind that.




Do you want to defend your need to distract from the topic?

No, but you seem to care a lot for Iranian lifes (rightfully) but when palestinians are concerned you seem to have much less empathy ...


Iranians are uprising for their freedoms

So are palestinians, or you think people like to be occupied by foreign nations?


, they're not sitting around contrasting and comparing themselves to life inside Egypt...

that's right. But US concern for democracy seems to be very partial...



Arab totalitarianism is really inconsequential. Iranians aren't exactly thrilled at the gobs of cash being thrown at proxy armies against Israel....

that's right of course.

and you've clearly never talked to Irnians after all if you think they're outright anti-Israel.

I talked to many Iranians and except for the Jewish ones never noticed any sympathy towards Israel. Katzav was generally called "the butcher".






Fiction. He wasn't the one using Obama's slogans

That's from Mousavi's external spokesman, talking to Foreign Policy:

FP: Would Mousavi pursue a different foreign policy than Ahmadinejad?

MM: As you may know, former President Mohammad Khatami, who is supporting Mousavi at the moment, was in favor of dialogue between the civilizations, but Ahmadinejad talks about the war of the civilizations. Is there not any difference between the two?

We [Iranians] are a bit unfortunate. When we had our Obama [meaning President Khatami], that was the time of President Bush in the United States. Now that [the United States] has Obama, we have our Bush here [in Iran]. In order to resolve the problems between the two countries, we should have two Obamas on the two sides. It doesn't mean that everything depends on these two people, but this is one of the main factors.


http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0609/Mousavi_is_the_Obama_of_Iran.html

[shravan]

You don't understand anything about Arab politics and society.

I would like to understand Arab Politics. It would be great if you shed some light on it.


(the sunnite pro-Saddam tribes leaders bribed by the US to stop the insurgency, for now at least)

?????

It's funny you're still supporting Bush' Iraqpolicy, whereas even most Americans and many republicans don't, no more.

Its funny you are still not talking about CHINA. In the month of February 2001 something had happened....;)

[maven]

takeo



So are palestinians, or you think people like to be occupied by foreign nations?




This thread is not about the Palestinians...or the Iraqis.

[Brody15]

Originally Posted by Brody15
The more paranoid side of me thinks Obama is "in" on something with Iran. More likely, he "thinks" hes in on something with Iran, but is gonna get bitten in the arse.
He also could have been trying to show good faith. Either way, wow, do I ever hope he learns his lesson.
What would be massively interesting is to see if his wimpy responses and trading with Iran continues, if so, I dont know what to think. Carter maybe?

Sadly, he is the one screwing us up, and we all have to learn the lesson.


You're right, thinking Obama will learn his lesson is like hoping that your parents will change their dysfunctional ways:)

We need to change and stop electing people like Obama.

[Madeline]

You're right, thinking Obama will learn his lesson is like hoping that your parents will change their dysfunctional ways:)

We need to change and stop electing people like Obama.
I must ask, are you in hiding there in Lala land? You seem to be one of the saner ones....didn't know many were left in CA.

[Brody15]

I must ask, are you in hiding there in Lala land? You seem to be one of the saner ones....didn't know many were left in CA.
:)
Yeah, born and raised in Los Angeles, under 40, and Jewish! Weird huh? I would say that in my professional career, I've met, roughly ten conservatives that I knew were conservative. Most offices will have a token conservative, ie the guy who everybody says "Yeah, but he's a Republican." I've been part of conversations where coworkers are talking about the office "conservative" in gossipy tones. I've already been labeled at the current office I work at as a "Republican." It came out when me and some coworkers were having drinks, and someone said "You're a Republican right? But you don't support prop 8, do you?" What's funny, I'm a registered Independent, I've never told a sole I was a Republican. It's also heart breaking being around so many self hating Jews. But I'm ranting!

[Madeline]

:)
Yeah, born and raised in Los Angeles, under 40, and Jewish! Weird huh? I would say that in my professional career, I've met, roughly ten conservatives that I knew were conservative. Most offices will have a token conservative, ie the guy who everybody says "Yeah, but he's a Republican." I've been part of conversations where coworkers are talking about the office "conservative" in gossipy tones. I've already been labeled at the current office I work at as a "Republican." It came out when me and some coworkers were having drinks, and someone said "You're a Republican right? But you don't support prop 8, do you?" What's funny, I'm a registered Independent, I've never told a sole I was a Republican. It's also heart breaking being around so many self hating Jews. But I'm ranting!

That's interesting. being an Independent myself, being from the mid west I am labeled a country hick all the time...even though I moved here. Prejudice of the oh so tolerant left, ya know.
Looks like you are the poster boy for EEO? At least for LA.:cool:

[takeo]

This thread is not about the Palestinians...or the Iraqis.

I just pointed out that your indignation about repression is very partial and thus very hypocritical.

[maven]

I just pointed out that your indignation about repression is very partial and thus very hypocritical.Takeo it is an entirely diferent situation.

If Palestinians wanted to be free, to be democratic, accept the existance of the Jewish state and the reality of no right to retun, move away from terrorism and in the case of Gaza; Islamism, then I would support that. I would love to see a prosporous Palestinian state alongside an Israel enjoying the security that has evaded Israelis for thousands of years. It is the failure to do that that has ended up with the current government in Israel.

If you read my posts you could see that all I wish for the Iranian supporters of the Islamic Republic; even Mousavi ones, is that they continue to feel the weight of the fascist boot of the regime for longer in order to help them to see the light.

Yes, the situation vis a vis Israel and the Palestinians can be regarded as repressive if you don't factor in why there needs to be a security wall and checkpoints. If I went to one of these checkpoints today motivated by your concern about the indignity suffered by the Palestinians passing through and waved a magic wand to make the checkpoint dissapear, what would be the result? Would it it be people peacefully passing through? No, it would be an invitation for homicide bombers to kill Israelis.

If you want to consider defensive actions as repression then that is your choice. Police and troops in any nation are by their very nature repressive. Even traffic wardens are repressive, it goes with the job.

Congratulatiions on turning yet another thread which has nothing to do with the Palestinians into one about the Palestinians.

This thread is about Iran. Did I call you and andak01 hyprocritical for your silence on the threads over the repression in Iran?

[takeo]

Takeo it is an entirely diferent situation.

If Palestinians wanted to be free, to be democratic, accept the existance of the Jewish state and the reality of no right to retun, move away from terrorism and in the case of Gaza; Islamism, then I would support that. I would love to see a prosporous Palestinian state alongside an Israel enjoying the security that has evaded Israelis for thousands of years. It is the failure to do that that has ended up with the current government in Israel.

If you read my posts you could see that all I wish for the Iranian supporters of the Islamic Republic; even Mousavi ones, is that they continue to feel the weight of the fascist boot of the regime for longer in order to help them to see the light.

Yes, the situation vis a vis Israel and the Palestinians can be regarded as repressive if you don't factor in why there needs to be a security wall and checkpoints. If I went to one of these checkpoints today motivated by your concern about the indignity suffered by the Palestinians passing through and waved a magic wand to make the checkpoint dissapear, what would be the result? Would it it be people peacefully passing through? No, it would be an invitation for homicide bombers to kill Israelis.

If you want to consider defensive actions as repression then that is your choice. Police and troops in any nation are by their very nature repressive. Even traffic wardens are repressive, it goes with the job.

Congratulatiions on turning yet another thread which has nothing to do with the Palestinians into one about the Palestinians.

This thread is about Iran. Did I call you and andak01 hyprocritical for your silence on the threads over the repression in Iran?

It isn't about security and defense only, and you know that. The colonisation has nothing to do with security. It's about the ideology of Eretz Israel, which can only be achieved by harming the interests of the Palestinians. (many people on this site even deny the existence of a palestinian people, and most deny their rights) Anyway, in a conflict you are always with 2, and there's always some dialectic proces. The protests in Iran are a consequence of election cheating, so calling the demonstrators terrorists and trouble seekers makes no sense. Equally so palestinian violence is a consequence of systematic Israeli repression, denial of their rights and violence against their people. Few reasonable people will claim that Israel always treated the palestinians decently and correctly. They are being oppressed, and that's why there is a (often) violent conflict. Iranians have enough of their government, they feel they are being oppressed by it, and that's why they protest, protests which can turn violent and change into a civil war if the militia will use more bloody repression.
l

[Brody15]

This thread has been hijacked. But the statements made by takeo are just too juicy to ignore. Takeo is the prime example of what 60+ years of anti Israel propaganda can do.

(many people on this site even deny the existence of a palestinian people) Who are the Palenstinians in your words?

Equally so palestinian violence is a consequence of systematic Israeli repression, denial of their rights and violence against their people.

Do you think if Israel left the Palestinians alone, that there would be peace?

[takeo]

This thread has been hijacked. But the statements made by takeo are just too juicy to ignore. Takeo is the prime example of what 60+ years of anti Israel propaganda can do.

Who are the Palenstinians in your words?



Do you think if Israel left the Palestinians alone, that there would be peace?

You are concentrating on the Palestinian issue. I only used it to put the Iranian tragedy in perspective. And since this is not the topic, I'm not going too deep into it. If Palestinians would have their own state, and there would be a reasonable compromise concerning Jerusalem and the refugees, I'm convinced there will be peace.

[Brody15]

You are concentrating on the Palestinian issue. I only used it to put the Iranian tragedy in perspective. And since this is not the topic, I'm not going too deep into it. If Palestinians would have their own state, and there would be a reasonable compromise concerning Jerusalem and the refugees, I'm convinced there will be peace.

At least tell me how you came to your conclusion about Israel and Palestinians. News, teachers, friends, experience?

[takeo]

At least tell me how you came to your conclusion about Israel and Palestinians. News, teachers, friends, experience?

Oh, I'm interested in this issue since a long time, since most of my family are of Russian Jewish decend and since I was politically active on the left. I went twice to Israel and occupied territories, first time in 1999 we were received by people associated with Gush Shalom. The second time in 2007 together with friends. (by the way in 1999 after university I made a big trip for several months to the Middle East and went to Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libanon, Jordan, Israel and finally Egypt, I returned several times to the last country ever since) We first planned to go to Israel first, but that would have prevented us from obtaining a visa for Syria and Iran, or we had to change our pasport. At the Israeli border we were questioned because of the countries we visited, but finally they let us in, and we didn't have to ask a new pasport in Amman.

[Brody15]

Oh, I'm interested in this issue since a long time, since most of my family are of Russian Jewish decend and since I was politically active on the left. I went twice to Israel and occupied territories, first time in 1999 we were received by people associated with Gush Shalom. The second time in 2007 together with friends. (by the way in 1999 after university I made a big trip for several months to the Middle East and went to Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libanon, Jordan, Israel and finally Egypt, I returned several times to the last country ever since) We first planned to go to Israel first, but that would have prevented us from obtaining a visa for Syria and Iran, or we had to change our pasport. At the Israeli border we were questioned because of the countries we visited, but finally they let us in, and we didn't have to ask a new pasport in Amman.

The best thing you can do is challenge yourself, challenge your own ideas, read opposing viewpoints and challenge them in your head. Read pro-israel blogs and news and challenge what they are saying, back it up. You'll either strengthen your own viewpoints or open your mind a bit.

[takeo]

The best thing you can do is challenge yourself, challenge your own ideas, read opposing viewpoints and challenge them in your head. Read pro-israel blogs and news and challenge what they are saying, back it up. You'll either strengthen your own viewpoints or open your mind a bit.

I'm regularly active n this forum since 8 years or so... So I guess I've been exposed to other points of view ...
but why don't you start to read news and websites with a different point of view than your own... seeing an issue at different angles can really be interesting you know...

[Reffo]

Few reasonable people will claim that Israel always treated the palestinians decently and correctly.What a ridiculous statement. Israelis and Palestinians have been at war with each other for nearly 100 years. And it is an inevitable side effect of war that people treat each other in ways that would be considered as indecent in times of peace...

It works like this in war: One side initiates hostile acts, the other side reacts with their own hostile acts, both sides also try to defend themselves in the process and both hostile and defensive acts impact adversely on the other side. That's just the nature of war ...

Now tell me Takeo: Which of the two sides insists on THEIR right to solve the differences by acts of hostility and terrorism, rather than negotiations and compromise? And who started this conflict (Hint: go back at least as far as Hebron 1929)?

Don't answer that, I know your answer already and we obviously don't agree but I just had to pose that rhetorical question ..

[takeo]

Reffo

What a ridiculous statement. Israelis and Palestinians have been at war with each other for nearly 100 years. And it is an inevitable side effect of war that people treat each other in ways that would be considered as indecent in times of peace...

Yes, but according to you Palestinians should just accept Israeli treatment without responding with hostilities of their own.

It works like this in war: One side initiates hostile acts, the other side reacts with their own hostile acts, both sides also try to defend themselves in the process and both hostile and defensive acts impact adversely on the other side. That's just the nature of war ...

actually it's hard to say that one side started. Palestinians originally saw the zionist project as an attempt to steal what they considered to be their land. (as the Indians did in the US and the aboriginals in Australia). And zionists didn't treat the local population too nicely since the beginning.


Now tell me Takeo: Which of the two sides insists on THEIR right to solve the differences by acts of hostility and terrorism, rather than negotiations and compromise?

both sides. Colonising the Westbank with settlements for Jews only, limiting the freedom to move, dispossessing palestinian properties, occupation, ethnic cleansing, etc. are all hostile acts. And Israel only started to negociate with palestinians in 1990, after heavy American pressure. And still many Israeli rightwing people called that treason and didn't want to negociate at all.

[Reffo]

Yes, but according to you Palestinians should just accept Israeli treatment without responding with hostilities of their own.Read my post and your post again. I am the one who is saying that war is evil and ugly and you are the one who despite that expect only one side, Israel, to behave as if there is no war ..

As for the rest of your post, I'll ignore it because we have discussed your lies and distortions ad nauseum before and repetition is pointless even though you seem to enjoy it. Click here, read the discussion on this thread starting from post #126 and see if you can add anything new

[Kachah]

Wow! Tell us, takeo, how did Aboriginies "originally see the zionist project as an attempt to steal what they considered to be their land"? I like comedy of absurd for free.
In fact any parallel between the Abos and the Arabs of Shomron, Judea and Gaza can only exist in the sick and gullible mind like yours.

[Madeline]

My mistake.

[takeo]

Wow! Tell us, takeo, how did Aboriginies "originally see the zionist project as an attempt to steal what they considered to be their land"? I like comedy of absurd for free.
In fact any parallel between the Abos and the Arabs of Shomron, Judea and Gaza can only exist in the sick and gullible mind like yours.

As they both consider themselves to be the indigenous population of the country they inhabit.

[Reffo]

As they both consider themselves to be the indigenous population of the country they inhabitWhat about the Jews? They too consider themselves the indiginous population of the area that is known as the holy land. And indeed some of the Jewish communities lived there continuously for thousands of years. The rest, who returned to join them, consider themselves the descendants of people who were indigineous to the land. The main difference is that despite that, Jews in 1948 were willing to share the land with the Arabs who were relative late comers but some of whom also lived there for hundreds of years however the Arabs were NOT willing to share the land with the Jewish people.

But who does Takeo empathise with? the ARABS!

[Mediocrates]

Well it's safe to say that the iPod Revolution has crashed with a thud. Nothing will come of it. There's too much comfort for the Iranian middle class to sacrifice to make it worth while.

In the meantime intelligence reports are coming out that Iran is in a crash program to deploy hundreds of 1200 mile range solid fuel missiles which can be launched in under 15 minutes.

[Brody15]

Yeah, Iran is officially out of the news, Michael Jackson is in.

[takeo]

What about the Jews? They too consider themselves the indiginous population of the area that is known as the holy land. And indeed some of the Jewish communities lived there continuously for thousands of years. The rest, who returned to join them, consider themselves the descendants of people who were indigineous to the land. The main difference is that despite that, Jews in 1948 were willing to share the land with the Arabs who were relative late comers but some of whom also lived there for hundreds of years however the Arabs were NOT willing to share the land with the Jewish people.

But who does Takeo empathise with? the ARABS!

Both Palestinian Arabs and Jews are indigenous to the land. I empathise with both, that's why I defend a two state solution.

[takeo]

Well it's safe to say that the iPod Revolution has crashed with a thud. Nothing will come of it. There's too much comfort for the Iranian middle class to sacrifice to make it worth while.

In the meantime intelligence reports are coming out that Iran is in a crash program to deploy hundreds of 1200 mile range solid fuel missiles which can be launched in under 15 minutes.

It's not over yet. Some important conservati ve mullahs from Qom (the stronghold of the regime) have declared their support for Mousavi, as did Rafsanjani (one of the most powerful men in Iran, who appointed Khatami but is now on a confrontation course). Mousavi himself doesn't give up either and declared the regime illegal. The majority of the Iranian parliament refused to support Ahmadinejad as well. There's a clear split within the regime, and that is much more dangerous for its survival than street demonstrations. It will resurface sooner rather than later. Now it's not only Ahmadinejad but equally Khatami which are increasingly isolated and criticized even within their own system . The danger is that of a hurt animal: Ahmadinejad knows his position is weakened and will do anything to divert attention and boost his popularity.

[maven]

Both Palestinian Arabs and Jews are indigenous to the land. I empathise with both, that's why I defend a two state solution.A two state solution in Iran!

Are you out of your mind?

Or have you just perhaps strayed once again into the wrong thread? :)

obsessives!

[shravan]

The danger is that of a hurt animal:

It is dangerous when a Animal is cornered.....;)

[Brody15]

Iran? What's that? In America, we're talking about Russia! Get with the program folks.









I'm being sarcastic.

[Reffo]

I empathise with both, that's why I defend a two state solutionYour claim sounds very hollow because if you really would empathise with Israel too then:

You wouldn't try to imply that Israel has been the impediment to the two state solution..
You would have acknowledged that in times of war it is impossible for either side to treat the other side according to standards that would be appropriate during peace times. Yet you condemned only Israel for not treating Palestinians "decently"..
You wouldn't have tried to blur the details of history and you would have admitted that the Palestinian Arabs were the ones who chose the path of violence and war..
Last but not least you would have come up with this statement of yours in the first place:
"Both Palestinian Arabs and Jews are indigenous to the land"
Instead of pretending initially that only the Arabs are indeginous and admitting the above only after I challenged you..

Nuff said.

As for the rest of ya who object to the hijacking of the thread, seeing that he has done so, I for one choose to NOT let him get away with his silly one sided repetitive jibes .. sue me :cool:

[takeo]

Your claim sounds very hollow because if you really would empathise with Israel too then:

You wouldn't try to imply that Israel has been the impediment to the two state solution..
You would have acknowledged that in times of war it is impossible for either side to treat the other side according to standards that would be appropriate during peace times. Yet you condemned only Israel for not treating Palestinians "decently"..
You wouldn't have tried to blur the details of history and you would have admitted that the Palestinian Arabs were the ones who chose the path of violence and war..
Last but not least you would have come up with this statement of yours in the first place:
"Both Palestinian Arabs and Jews are indigenous to the land"
Instead of pretending initially that only the Arabs are indeginous and admitting the above only after I challenged you..

Nuff said.

As for the rest of ya who object to the hijacking of the thread, seeing that he has done so, I for one choose to NOT let him get away with his silly one sided repetitive jibes .. sue me :cool:

listen I made a post about Iran and one sentense about Palestinians and Israeli (in reply to your post). You only reply to the last one, so it seems you are hijacking this thread...

[shravan]

When we blame, we give away our power.....:stick:

[Reffo]

listen I made a post about Iran and one sentense about Palestinians and Israeli (in reply to your post). You only reply to the last one, so it seems you are hijacking this thread... Like I said, you always stick in your sneaky little propaganda jibes and hope to get away with it ... And please don't pretend that it was in response to me either ...

[Brody15]

I'm sad because takeo mentioned he was Jewish, so I figure he's a non practising Jew who has grow up always feeling alientated from other Jews. YOu dont even realize it's happening. You know you have something different about you, but your secular, and confused when you see practicing Jews. YOu're alientated from other secular people, Chritians, and everyonme else, because you are Jewish. It happens all the time. So you find solice and a missing ideology in Jew hatred which is easy because you live with it everyday in your society and within your peers. Sadness.

You keep deflecting from the questions too, people just want to hear you're side of view because it's so absurd.

[Mediocrates]

Anti Iranian political cartoons: some of these are quite good.

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=IA53409

[takeo]

Anti Iranian political cartoons: some of these are quite good.

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=IA53409

Those Saudi's really have guts to criticise the Iranian elections. Of course in Saudi Arabia there aren't any elections to criticise. (and I don't think that making a cartoon about the Saudi Royal family would be a wise idea...)

[takeo]

I'm sad because takeo mentioned he was Jewish, so I figure he's a non practising Jew who has grow up always feeling alientated from other Jews. YOu dont even realize it's happening. You know you have something different about you, but your secular, and confused when you see practicing Jews. YOu're alientated from other secular people, Chritians, and everyonme else, because you are Jewish. It happens all the time. So you find solice and a missing ideology in Jew hatred which is easy because you live with it everyday in your society and within your peers. Sadness.

You keep deflecting from the questions too, people just want to hear you're side of view because it's so absurd.

You don't have to be religious to be a Jew. And you're as alienated or as Jewish as you choose yourself. And my ideology isn't "Jew hating". Actually many Jews are and were leftist, and they're not alienated or selfhating. Some are proud to be Jewish, for others it doesn't matter that much .

[Reffo]

You don't have to be religious to be a Jew..You are absolutely right. Yet you seem to have a problem with Netanyahu's demand that the Palestinians should recognize Israel as the Jewish state.

Why is that Takeo? You seem to recognize Jewishness as a nationality yet you have a problem with recognizing Israel as the state for the Jewish nation? I ask you again: Why?!

[takeo]

It's not over yet. Some important conservati ve mullahs from Qom (the stronghold of the regime) have declared their support for Mousavi, as did Rafsanjani (one of the most powerful men in Iran, who appointed Khatami but is now on a confrontation course). Mousavi himself doesn't give up either and declared the regime illegal. The majority of the Iranian parliament refused to support Ahmadinejad as well. There's a clear split within the regime, and that is much more dangerous for its survival than street demonstrations. It will resurface sooner rather than later. Now it's not only Ahmadinejad but equally Khatami which are increasingly isolated and criticized even within their own system . The danger is that of a hurt animal: Ahmadinejad knows his position is weakened and will do anything to divert attention and boost his popularity.

And I was right. Now Khatami, during 8 years president of Iran, has joined the internal chorus of voices demanding a change. He calls for a referendum about the last elections, and heavily criticised Ahmadinejad and Khamenei. This open call for rebellion by many leading personalities in the islamic republic has not been punished and oppressed, so it seems not everyone in the security apparatus is behind Khatami and Ahmadinejad. In the meanwhile Ahmadinejad has appointed his soninlaw which is considered to be a friend of Israel, as a minister, and many other things are happening as well on the highest levels. To be continued.
(by the way in my last post I meant Khamenei of course instead of Khatami)

[Mediocrates]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418544518&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

7 lawyers who represented protesters turn up dead in police custody.

[uriah007]

I don't know if anybody posted this yet or not, but I thought it pertinent:

Iranian Chief of Staff Firouzabadi Writes Letter to Hidden Imam: http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=countries&Area=iran&ID=SP249209

On July 12, 2009, the Iranian news agency ISNA published a letter written by Iranian chief of staff Hassan Firouzabadi to the Hidden Imam (the Shi'ite messiah, also called the Mahdi). In his letter, Firouzabadi depicts the post-election protests as a conspiracy against the Iranian regime by the West and the reformists in Iran. He also rejects accusations of Basij brutality, saying that the group did not act against the Iranian people in suppressing the protests, but rather tried to protect them. He concludes by urging the Hidden Imam to come speedily and launch a worldwide Islamic revolution.

[Brody15]

Awww, it's like Charlie Brown writing a letter to the Great Pumpkin.