Palestinian Statehood and Party Lines

[NewsGuy]

Barak was willing. Sharon was willing.

But now the Likud party assembly has rejected the notion of Palestinian statehood.


Haaretz reports:

In a move seen as a slap to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, the Likud Political Bureau on Tuesday night unanimously passed a resolution barring the acceptance of a Palestinian state, in apparent response to a recent statement in which the Prime Minister voiced openness to eventual recognition of an independent Palestine, Army Radio reported Wednesday.

The resolution specifically rejected a Palestinian state west of the Jordan River. The wording harkened back to positions held by Sharon in the past, in which he maintained that the area occupied by the Kingdom of Jordan was the true Palestinian state and that the Palestinians should view it as such.

Several months ago, Sharon shocked hardliners by saying that of all of the Palestinians' rulers past and present, only Israel was willing to grant them a state.

Bureau chairman and Minister of Internal Security Uzi Landau, speaking at the end of the meeting, said that the decision was binding upon the Likud leadership and should be seen as official party policy.

The step, supported by many of Sharon's party rivals, among them supporters of former prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, was also seen as a run-up to efforts to bring an anti-statehood resolution before the powerful Likud Central Committee.

If the Likud Central Committee adopts the "no-Palestinian statehood" position as its platform, this might divide Israeli politics into the Palestine and "no Palestine" parties.

It would probably also present a foreign policy dilemma for Israel since there is unanimous international support for a Palestinian state east of the Jordan River, i.e., in the Palestinian-controlled territories.

In any event, an interesting development.

Your thoughts?

[takeo]

let's say that this resolution would just be an official confirmation of what we already know: that the Israeli government don't want peace and is not prepared to do compromises, trying to find all kind of excuses not to have to talk to arafat. It is the road to nowhere (or more exactly it is the road to more terrorism and more war and more international isolation of Israel).

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
let's say that this resolution would just be an official confirmation of what we already know: that the Israeli government don't want peace and is not prepared to do compromises, trying to find all kind of excuses not to have to talk to arafat.

And yet, Sharon has offered to return to peace negotiations leading to a Palestinian state, if only the Palestinians would stop terrorism for 7 days. You regularly have chosen to ignore this important point.

How can you have complains against Sharon in light of this very lenient request?

The only complaint I personally have against him is that he is ONLY demanding 7 days, and not 7 months.

Anyway, I predict that this refusal to allow for a Palestinian state will be the vasis for a Netanyahu/Sharon showdown for leadership of the Likud and of the state of Israel.

[takeo]

Well, after the newyears speech of Arafat, there were more than 7 days of cease-fire. Than he said cease-fire was not enough but arafat had to arrest all hamas-supporters, than he came with this "ship" accusation (conveniently at the moment zinni came to visit him) and the destroyal of palestinian houses, more police buildings, targetted assasinations, etc. and now the cease-fire has come to an end of course. A cease-fire has to come from both sides by the way.
This "7 days" is just an excuse for not to negotiate, it is just made to fool the international community and most of all the US.

[watcher]

How can you negotiate with people who rejects all offers but would be happy to continue to commit terrorism? Israel has done pretty much all it can but "palestine" doesn't want to budge an inch but wants to take as much land as possible from Israel! Land that does not belong to "palestine", never has, never will by their terrorist actions.

If Israels generosity is turned away then those "palestinians" can leave back to their homelands and stop being squatters in Israel.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Well, after the newyears speech of Arafat, there were more than 7 days of cease-fire. Than he said cease-fire was not enough but arafat had to arrest all hamas-supporters, than he came with this "ship" accusation (conveniently at the moment zinni came to visit him)
...

This "7 days" is just an excuse for not to negotiate, it is just made to fool the international community and most of all the US.

Of course, there was never a period of 7 days, not was there even a period of 24 hours during which there were no terrorists acts against Israel.

During the month of January 2002 alone, there were 4 foiled attempts by Palestinians to cut the fence at Israeli border towns, with the Palestinian terrorists heavily armed and with bombs strapped to their bodies ready to mass murder Israeli civilians.

I believe that the official number of terror incidents since Arafat's latest lie about a supposed cease-fire was about 170 terrorist incidents against Israelis, not including the latest blood baths in Jerusalem.

As for your diminishing of the karin A, which carried 50 tons of heavy weapons and missiles bought by the Palestinians from Iran I'll say this: It is always amusing to see how KGB-style propaganda is still used by anti-israel apologists for the Arabs to distort every fact of history.

[takeo]

Palestinians want what belongs to them, and they can't return to their homeland because their homeland are the occupied territories and Israel.



Since arafat's speach, there were more than 10 days without any serious incident or people killed. (unless you call children trowing stones at tanks ans things like this serious incidents) After that there was another period of time without attacks on innocent civilians. however during all that time Israel continued its targetted attacks and continued destroying PA facilities and refusing to talk. The most it did was retreating from some PA-controlled towns. i believe even in the first 24 hours of Arafat's speach sharon still continued to destroy PA-facilities. It is clear that he didn't want to give peace a chance.

"As for your diminishing of the karin A, which carried 50 tons of heavy weapons and missiles bought by the Palestinians from Iran I'll say this: It is always amusing to see how KGB-style propaganda is still used by anti-israel apologists for the Arabs to distort every fact of history. "

well, the KGB doesn't exist anymore but the Mossad still does, and it produced this "Karin A" lie. It has been prooved that this romanian ship has been used by the Israeli government before, and the PA demanded an international research about this, Israel refused to cooperate.

[NewsGuy]

"Since arafat's speach, there were more than 10 days without any serious incident or people killed. (unless you call children trowing stones at tanks ans things like this serious incidents) After that there was another period of time without attacks on innocent civilians."

Wrong again. There was never even 24 hours without Palestinian armed terrorist attacks on Israel.

You claim 10 days?? ok, which 10 days exactly are you talking about? Please tell me what were the dates.


"The most it did was retreating from some PA-controlled towns."

The most he did? Come on. you keep on talking about occupation, well, here Sharon moved Israel's troops out of the Palestinian-occupied terrories, even before Arafat stopped terrorism, but still no end to the Arab terrorism.

Here we have a clear example that it is never good enough for Israel to even give the Palestinian exactly they ask for, because in reality, they want just Israel to be extinct.


"well, the KGB doesn't exist anymore but the Mossad still does, and it produced this "Karin A" lie. It has been prooved that this romanian ship has been used by the Israeli government before, and the PA demanded an international research about this, Israel refused to cooperate."

Incredible how you think you can just deny facts and create a new KGB-style "truth."

Do you have access to superior intelligence-gathering than the satellite technology that has photos of the Palestinians loading the weapons to the ship in Iran, then sailing with the weapons on a ship navigated by Palestinian officials?

[takeo]

It was a retreat of a town that was given to the PA and should have never been occupied, he occupied it only a few weeks before, not a big concession to me and certainly not what has been promised after 7 days of cease-fire.
Do you any prooves of this sattelite-images? because, if they had such prooves, why did they refuse to cooperate to an international inquiry?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
It was a retreat of a town that was given to the PA and should have never been occupied, he occupied it only a few weeks before, not a big concession to me and certainly not what has been promised after 7 days of cease-fire.
Do you any prooves of this sattelite-images? because, if they had such prooves, why did they refuse to cooperate to an international inquiry?

First of all, I still didn't hear from you which 10 days exactly do you claim there was no Palestinian terrorism. Because there was certainly no time at all without Palestinian armed attacks.

So I see now that you are starting to make more excuses why, even if Israel pull its troops completely out of Palestinian-occupied territories and give the PA total and complete control over their people, this isn't good enough. I really don't know what you and the Arabs want more from Sharon -- he did what you constantly claim you want and you still complain.

Secondly, Israel cooperated with international inquiries, sharing intelligence with the EU, the US, and even Egypt and Jordan.

You may find it interesting that Israel has outwardly denied the CIA involvement in tracking the Karine A. But the fact remains that the US tracked that ship form the moment it loaded the weapons in Iran till the moment it was intercepted by Israel.

Please tell me what is your source for your Arab-propaganda information about the mysterious Romanian connection.

[takeo]

The dates were 17th to 27th of december.
already one day later: "Mideast violence continued Monday as a 13-year-old Palestinian boy from the Khan Younis refugee camp in Gaza was shot and killed, according to the Palestine Red Crescent. The Israeli army said it was checking that report. "
"Two more Palestinians were shot dead by Israeli troops earlier Monday in West Bank town of Nablus. Israel said the men were shot because they were considered an armed threat. Palestinians said the men were plainclothes police officers trying to carry out Arafat's anti-terrorism mandate. "
"Israeli troops killed a member of the Islamic militant group Hamas during a raid Monday in the West Bank city of Hebron, Palestinian and Israeli officials said. "
this is only one day later. At the same day a mortar was fired at a settlement in gaza, but noone was injured, it was however not organised by one of the palestinian groups but an individual act, the next 10 days no single group attacked Israel.
two days later:
"Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told the Likud caucus in the Knesset on Tuesday that he was "fed up" with Arafat's speeches and "broken promises."
He said Israel will only believe "deeds, not words" and vowed that Israel would continue to hunt terror suspects itself whatever happens. "
three or four days later:
"The Jerusalem newspaper Ha'aretz reported the Palestinian Authority had arrested 15 members of the Palestinian security forces on suspicion they participated in attacks on Israelis.
Arafat, speaking at his Ramallah headquarters in the West Bank, urged his supporters to remain resolute.
Let the whole world know and hear that our strong people will defend this holy land with their blood, souls, properties and with everything they own because this land is the holy land and the land of strong people," the Palestinian leader said.
Meanwhile, the leadership of Hamas met Wednesday in Ramallah to debate whether to call off suicide attacks inside Israel, sources told CNN.
The sources said Hamas and other Palestinian groups that are not members of the Palestine Liberation Organization were present.
The sources said the policy under debate would end Hamas attacks only inside Israel and would not apply to Jewish settlements inside the Palestinian territories where more than 200,000 Israelis live. "

"Powell said the United States and EU were "united in our desire to do everything we can and to encourage others to do all they can to ease the plight of the Palestinian people, who are existing in very, very difficult circumstances."

"In Gaza City, Hamas members and residents clashed with police outside the home of Abdel Rantisi, a founding member of Hamas, triggering a gunbattle in which one Palestinian was killed and 23 others were wounded -- five of them seriously, hospital sources said.
Palestinian sources told CNN on Friday that Rantisi planned to turn himself in within 24 hours, thereby avoiding further clashes. But the apparent agreement could not be confirmed.
The Palestinian Authority has been arresting Hamas militants and closing down dozens of buildings owned by Hamas and Islamic Jihad. "
"Hamas announced Friday it will suspend suicide attacks "inside the land occupied in 1948" by Israel and promised a "halt to firing mortars until further notice."
The statement, issued in Gaza, came after days of debate inside Hamas about how to respond to Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's call for a cease-fire, and follows weeks of international pressure for the Palestinian Authority to quell the violence.
Hamas did not name the West Bank and Gaza in the announcement of its decision to stop its military wing from conducting suicide bombings.
Responding to the announcement, the Israeli government rejected what it said were "mixed messages" from the Palestinians and said Hamas still poses a serious threat. "
"After days of debate inside Hamas about how to respond to Arafat's cease-fire call, Hamas announced Friday it would "halt to the martyrdom (suicide) operations inside the land occupied in 1948 (Israel) and a halt to firing mortars until further notice."
"As part of the crackdown, Palestinian security forces raided a house belonging to a senior Hamas leader, triggering a gunbattle with Hamas supporters in which one Palestinian was killed and 23 others were wounded, five seriously.
In Washington, the State Department noted some improvements have been made in Mideast security and urged Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat to pursue a "sustained and effective effort" to end violence in the region.
State Department spokesman Richard Boucher also urged the Israelis to take "steps to ease the hardships" of Palestinians.
"We've seen some positive steps so far. And we also believe that, as the Palestinians continue to take serious steps against the violence, that the Israelis, in fact, should take steps to ease the restrictions on the Palestinians," Boucher said.
The Palestinian Authority said it arrested the officers on suspicion they participated in attacks on Israelis. Israel has long maintained Palestinian security officers are among those carrying out the attacks. "









6 days later:
" A reception in Jerusalem planned to mark the Muslim holiday of Eid al-Fitr was banned last week by Israeli authorities, and the ranking PLO leader in East Jerusalem, Sari Nusseibeh, was taken in for questioning about the event. Washington called Nusseibeh's detention "provocative and counter-productive" and filed a complaint with the Israeli government. At the time, Israeli officials cited rules prohibiting Palestinian officials from conducting political activity in Jerusalem. Nusseibeh is widely considered to be a moderate among Palestinian officials. He's publicly urged the Palestinian leadership to drop its demand for the so-called "right of return" for Palestinian refugees. "
"Two top leaders of the radical Islamic Jihad group were arrested Saturday, Palestinian police said.
Shadi Mohanna, and his second-in-command, Mahmud Jahud, directed the wing of the militant group in northern Gaza, police said.
Their arrests come a day after six Palestinians were killed during a clash between Palestinian police and protesters in Jabaliya, a refugee camp in northern Gaza.
An estimated 72 others were wounded -- 10 of them critically, Gaza hospital sources said.
The Israeli government rejected what it said were "mixed messages" from the Palestinians and said Hamas still posed a serious threat. "

7 days later: in a settlement near nablus a settler was attacked and shot the perpetrator, this was the first palestinian violence in a week.

[takeo]

10-11 days later (28)"In recent days, the level of violence has dropped off. However, the outgoing IDF intelligence chief, Gen. Amos Malka, said Friday the Palestinian Authority is still not doing enough to bring about a real cease-fire.
"The cease-fire will come only if the Palestinians cooperate," said Malka in an interview broadcast by Israel Radio. "This is not the situation so far." "

"Three Palestinians were shot by Israeli Special Forces at Beit Hanoun in the Northern Gaza, the Israeli Army said. It's not clear what precipitated the killings, but Israel said that weapons were later found on the bodies.
Earlier, three other Palestinians were shot and killed, Israeli and Palestinian officials confirmed. The army said it returned fire when the gunmen attacked an armored personnel carrier at the Alei Sinai settlement in northern Gaza.
Palestinian officials said they couldn't confirm any of the men had been carrying weapons. They said Israeli authorities had custody of the bodies.
The killings promped Palestinians to accuse Israel of trying to derail the peace process.
"These two incidents in Gaza prove Israelis don't want calm," a senior Palestinian security official said. "They're trying to provoke a Palestinian reaction in order to destroy the peace efforts."
Meanwhile, Palestinian police arrested a Hamas militant wanted by Israel, Palestinian security sources said.
Moussa Kullab was one of 33 suspected militants named on an Israeli "most wanted" list that U.S. envoy Anthony Zinni gave to Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat."

13 days later: "JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An Israeli infantry force backed by tanks has rolled into a West Bank town to arrest three Palestinians suspected of terrorist activities, a statement from Israel Defense Forces said.
The Israeli action took place Qabatiya, near Jenin, in a section of the West Bank under Palestinian control. Parts of the West Bank are under joint Israeli-Palestinian supervision.
Among those arrested for questioning was Hamas member Zacraneh.
According to the IDF, Palestinians fired at the Israeli force a number of times during the operation, but said there were no injuries.
Israeli forces left Qabatiya once the operation was complete. An M-16 assault rifle found with the men was confiscated.
U.S. Mideast peace envoy Gen. Anthony Zinni will return to the region Thursday, the U.S. embassy in Jerusalem confirmed Tuesday.
Three days ago Palestinian police arrested one of the militants sought by Israel.
Moussa Kullab was one of 33 suspected militants named by Israeli in a list that U.S. envoy Anthony Zinni gave to Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat.
At least 11 others on the list have been arrested, according to Israeli sources. "
"There has been a drop in violence since Arafat renewed his call for a truce December 16 and arrested scores of members of the militant Hamas and Islamic Jihad groups.
Israel said, however, that Arafat needs to do more before it can begin implementing recommendations by an international commission led by former U.S. Sen. George Mitchell.
The announcement about Zinni's return came on the same day that an Israeli infantry force, backed by tanks, rolled into a West Bank town to arrest three Palestinians suspected of terrorist activities, according to Israel Defense Forces.
The Israeli action took place at Qabatiya near Jenin in a section of the West Bank under full Palestinian control. Parts of the West Bank are under joint Israeli-Palestinian supervision.
Among those arrested by the IDF and transferred to Israeli Security Services for questioning was Hamas member Nasser Zacraneh.
The IDF said that Palestinians fired at the Israeli force a number of times during the operation but said there were no injuries.
Israeli forces left Qabatiya once the operation was complete. An M-16 assault rifle found with the men was confiscated during the operation, the IDF said.
Tuesday's action by Israeli forces continued similar recent arrests of Palestinian militants by Israeli troops. Last week, Israeli forces entered the city of Hebron and the West Bank village of Azzoun, arresting several people they said are suspected of terrorist activity.
Over the weekend, Palestinian police said they arrested Moussa Kullab, one of 33 suspected militants named on an Israeli "most wanted" list that Zinni gave Arafat.
At least 11 people on the list have been arrested, according to Israeli sources. Palestinians said they have arrested at least 18. "



15 days later: Israel withdrawed from jenin and one Ramallah-neighbourhood, but kept the occupation of other territory belonging to the PA, and left some restrictions. (this was still before the visit of Zinni)

"Prior to his arrival, Israeli forces went into Palestinian-controlled territory at Hebron and arrested four people the Israel Defense Forces said had ties to Islamic Jihad. "
"As Zinni arrives, there is a public split between Sharon and Peres over whether negotiations with the Palestinians should resume.
In remarks to reporters Wednesday, Peres noted the falloff in attacks on Israelis since Arafat called for a stop to them on December 16.
Peres said he believed that if there were no attacks during Zinni's four-day visit, work could resume on a cease-fire agreement.
Sharon has refused to allow Arafat to travel until he arrests four men Israel says were responsible for the assassination of Israeli Cabinet member Rechavam Ze'evi. "
"After Arafat's call for a halt, Hamas said it would not launch terror attacks inside Israel. Islamic Jihad said it would do nothing to disrupt Palestinian unity, believed to be a signal its attacks would stop.
Since then, violent incidents have dropped by about 50 percent, Israeli officials have said. " (in fact they stopped, on the exception of two or three isolated incidents)
The day after the ship-incident began, at the time Zinno came to visit the area. So far no organised palestinian attacks had occured.

[takeo]

21-22 days later: "Palestinian sources said early Thursday that Israeli tanks and bulldozers entered the town of Rafah in southern Gaza and destroyed two homes.
The sources said the vehicles were about 50 meters inside the city and that no resistance to them had been shown. A spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces had no comment.
Earlier, according to Palestinian military sources, Israeli tanks and jeeps occupied a Palestinian military base in Rafah, an area usually under complete Palestinian control.
The base belongs to the Palestinian navy and is next to an Israeli army post. Palestinian forces evacuated the base earlier in the day. There were no reports of gunfire.
Israeli army bulldozers destroyed two Palestinian Security Forces positions near the site of the attack. The army said Palestinians there gave cover to the attackers. "
"The lull in violence in the Middle East was shattered Wednesday when two Palestinian gunmen cut through a security fence at an Israeli army post and opened fire, killing four Israelis before being slain themselves, the army said.
Three Israeli soldiers and one officer were killed. The Islamic group Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack on the fortified Israeli army post at Kerem Shalom, in Israel, close to the convergence of the borders of Israel, Gaza and Egypt. "

23 days later: Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told Likud Party members Thursday the Israeli government would have no political contact with the Palestinian Authority until those responsible for smuggling 50 tons of arms aboard a ship in the Red Sea are arrested, Israeli diplomatic sources said.
But security contacts will continue, Sharon said at the meeting in Ramat Gan near Tel Aviv.
The arms shipment has put a further strain on Israeli-Palestinian relations. Israeli tanks tore up runways to the main terminal at the Palestinian-controlled Gaza International Airport Friday morning, Israeli and Palestinian sources said.
"Israeli forces have destroyed the tarmac at Dahaniya airport," an Israel Defense Forces statement said.
Israeli forces were also busy in the West Bank overnight, arresting Hamas activist Amer Shitawi from the village of Beit Iba, near Nablus. The village is in area A under full Palestinian control. According to the IDF, Israeli forces have left the area and the suspect has been transferred to security forces for interrogation.
Palestinian security sources also confirm the arrest of Shitawi.
IDF forces were operating at a number of locations in Southern Gaza and Israeli special forces had arrested eight Palestinians in Rafah suspected of terrorist activity, Israeli officials said.
The moves appear to have been a continuation of activities that began early Thursday, when Palestinian sources said Israeli tanks and bulldozers entered the town of Rafah in southern Gaza and destroyed two homes.
In other developments, IDF forces had also gone into the Sufa corridor, which is under full Israeli control, and separated the link between the city of Rafah and Khan Younis.
On Wednesday, Palestinian military sources said a number of Israeli tanks and jeeps had gone into a military base in Rafah, several hours after the two Palestinian gunmen cut through a security fence and killed an Israeli officer and three Israeli soldiers before being killed themselves. "

26 days later:
"Israel has called the targeted killing of suspected terrorists self-defense. The Palestinians call them assassinations.
In the East Jerusalem's Isawiya neighborhood where the five newly constructed houses were destroyed, city officials said no one -- Arabs or Jews -- would be allowed to build without permits.
Palestinians have often complained they have no choice but to build without permits. They contend the Jerusalem city government rarely issues permits as a way of holding down the Arab population of Jerusalem.
The move followed the demolition of homes last week in the Rafah refugee camp. The United Nations says 58 houses were demolished and 511 people were left homeless.
The government position on the demolitions in the Rafah refugee camp is that the houses were empty and used by militants to shoot on army troops.
The destruction of the houses in southern Gaza was part of a series of Israeli retaliatory strikes against Palestinian targets after Hamas gunmen cut through a security fence at Kerem Shalom and killed four Israeli soldiers before being killed themselves."
"Hours after a top militant from Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah party was killed, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade on Monday launched an attack near a Jewish settlement, killing one Israeli soldier and wounding another, Israeli rescue officials said.
No other details on the attack near the Shavei Shomron settlement west of Nablus were immediately available, but earlier the Al Aqsa Brigade blamed Israel for killing Raed al-Karmi and vowed revenge for his death.
The Al Aqsa Brigade did not dispute the Israeli account, and said in a statement that it would "balance the terror" inflicted on Palestinians until Israel withdraws from its occupation of the Palestinian territories.
The Israel Defense Forces declined comment on the killing of al-Karmi, 30, but Marwan Barghouti, the head of the Fatah movement on the West Bank, also blamed Israel for the killing, saying the Israelis had abandoned an informal cease-fire with the Palestinians.
Barghouti and other Palestinian leaders met with Arafat Monday afternoon and pleaded with him to drop the demand he made December 16 for a halt in attacks on Israel. "
"In Gaza, the Izz Eddin al-Kasam Martyrs Brigades -- the military wing of the radical Islamic Hamas movement -- issued a statement saying it might launch unspecified new attacks because the world did nothing about "the crimes of the occupation forces and their insulting behavior toward President Arafat."
"As part of Israel's effort to limit Arafat's movements, its forces destroyed his helicopters -- a retaliatory move for Palestinian suicide bombings in Jerusalem and Haifa. Last week, the Israelis dug up runways at Gaza's international airport.
Izz Eddin al-Kasam also said the killing of Fatah leader Raed al-Karmi at Tulkarem and the bulldozing of Palestinian homes were "crimes" committed by the Israelis.
Hundreds of mourners shouted "revenge, revenge" and fired weapons into the air Tuesday as they carried the body of Karmi, whom Palestinians considered a hero, through the streets of Tulkarem. "

since than, there was of course no more cease-fire, and the violence on both sides could reach new hights again. It is clear Israel never wanted peace, never negotiated with Arafat and didnt stop its military aggression and murder-policy in the occupied territories, not even when terrorism stopped and even Hamas agreed to a cease-fire.

[takeo]

"So I see now that you are starting to make more excuses why, even if Israel pull its troops completely out of Palestinian-occupied territories and give the PA total and complete control over their people, this isn't good enough. I really don't know what you and the Arabs want more from Sharon -- he did what you constantly claim you want and you still complain. "

What he should do is start negociating over the withrawel, first of all territories currently belonging to the PA , later the withrawel of ALL the occupied territories, without military posts surrounding palestinians towns and controlling borders and roads. I don't know if that is too much asked, but it is certainly what is demanded by the international community as well.

"Secondly, Israel cooperated with international inquiries, sharing intelligence with the EU, the US, and even Egypt and Jordan. "

Also concerning the Karin A? I don't think so!

"You may find it interesting that Israel has outwardly denied the CIA involvement in tracking the Karine A. But the fact remains that the US tracked that ship form the moment it loaded the weapons in Iran till the moment it was intercepted by Israel. "

So why is it that the white house first declared that the arms were heading for Libanon?

My source about the "mysterious Romanian connection" was BBC world.

[NewsGuy]

takeo,

I'm not sure why you are copying and pasting an entire term paper here. It's nearly impossible to read through such volumes in message board format.

As for the subject matter, it looks like even your quote reports about Palestinians firing RPGs into Israeli towns during that time period you claim was Arafat's big cease-fire.

Here's a more expanded look at what actually happened on the day you yourself claim was the beginning of the supposed Arab cease-fire:

Stories for December 17, 2001

21:50 Arab forces shoot Jews near Neve Tzuf
Arab forces this evening opened fire on Jews driving near Neve Tzuf. One man was shot and seriously injured in the attack.


21:49 Arab forces shoot Jews near Ofra
Arab forces this evening opened fire on Jews driving near Ofra. Two people were injured in the attack; a man and his son.


03:51 New synagogue consecrated in Sanur; Arab forces fire on procession
A new synagogue was consecrated in yesterday in the Jewish community of Sanur, in Samaria. Approximately 400 people attended the festive ceremony, in which a new Torah was brought into the synagogue.

During the transportation of the Torah to Sanur, Arab forces opened fire on the convoy of cars. No injuries were reported.


* * *
What happened in day 2 of the Palestinian-style cease-fire?
* * *

Stories for December 18, 2001

23:55 Arab forces firebomb Har Adar
Arab forces tonight threw two firebombs at the entrance guardpost of the Jewish community of Har Adar. No injuries were reported.



23:54 Bombing near Hebron
Arab forces tonight detonated a primitive bomb on a road near Hebron. No injuries were reported.



21:46 Arab forces shell Neve Dekalim
Arab forces tonight launched mortar shells into the Jewish community of Neve Dekalim, in Gush Katif. No injuries were reported.



15:14 Arab forces open fire on IDF at Neve Dekalim
Arab forces today opened fire with automatic rifles and rocket propelled grenades at IDF positions in Neve Dekalim's industrial zone, in Gush Katif. IDF soldiers returned fire. No injuries were reported.



14:13 Arab forces shoot Samaritan in Hawara
Arab forces this morning opened fire on a Samaritan, as he drove through the Arab village of Hawara. The man was shot and lightly injured.



01:18 Arab forces shell Ganei Tal
Arab forces last night launched a mortar shell at the Jewish community of Ganei Tal, in Gush Katif. No injuries were reported.


* * *

I can go on like this, but as you can see, there was never even a 24 hour period when the Palestinians stopped their terorrist attacks on Israelis.

[NewsGuy]

"So why is it that the white house first declared that the arms were heading for Libanon?"

This was not the position of the White House. What's your source for this surprising claim?


"My source about the "mysterious Romanian connection" was BBC world."

I don't see it on the BBC. Maybe I'm just not finding it there with their search engine. Please provide the link so we can all see where your amazing "facts" are coming from.

[takeo]

You call this "arab forces", however this were personal initiatives of individuals not controlled by the PA, nor Fatah nor Hamas or any other group, the organised attacks are usually a lot more "efficient".
In the situation the PA is now it simply can't controll all palestinians, not even well known trrorist groups as Hamas and Jihad. No single state can controll the actions of all its citizens, and without a good infrastracture this is evn less likely. Today i heard that several hamas-terrorists escaped from prison because there were credible reports Israel would attack another prison as it did in the recent past, and the guards fled. It is clear that with such actions Israel won't stop terrorism.
But you are right that there wasn't a total lack of any hostilities(however the other incidents you mentioned may not have reached the international press, I only read about one shooting incident and one missile fired at a settlement), in the next days however it was clear to everyone that violence dropped considerably, and even perez aknowledged this and said it was time to talk (see my links, I think after two weeks) but Sharon refused. From day one the Israeli government boycotted Arafat's initiatife by launching new attacks, refusing to talk and it finally destroyed the cease-fire with hamas (a very unique chance to negociate with a united palestinian front) by killing hamas-leaders. He also showed no sign of any goodwill while the violence seriously diminished, blackmailing arafat by forcing him to stay in Ramallah, etc. (you can read it all above).
The articles i pasted above may be rather long but are an answer to the accusation that i didn't had any hard facts for my statement that the current violence is the result of Sharon's hard-line and un-pragmatic policy. I could also have stated the PA website but as this is rather one-sided (all the israeli aggressions during that time but not the palestinian aggressions) i choose CNN.

[NewsGuy]

takeo,

"You call this "arab forces", however this were personal initiatives of individuals not controlled by the PA, nor Fatah nor Hamas or any other group, the organised attacks are usually a lot more "efficient"."

Yes, I do call the Arab armed forces exactly that. All Palestinians living within the Palestinian-occupied territories are controlled by Arafat and the terrorists missions are as a result of direct orders by Arafat to mass murder Jews. That is why a good portion of the terrorist attacks are being carried out by uniformed Palestinian troops.


"In the situation the PA is now it simply can't controll all palestinians, not even well known trrorist groups as Hamas and Jihad."

Wrong. According to statements made last Friday, the Palestinian legislative council announced that they could stop attacks on Israelis within 24 hours. They simply choose to sabotage the peace plan and go on with an organized genocide against the Israelis.

"But you are right that there wasn't a total lack of any hostilities(however the other incidents you mentioned may not have reached the international press, I only read about one shooting incident and one missile fired at a settlement), in the next days however it was clear to everyone that violence dropped considerably, and even perez aknowledged this and said it was time to talk (see my links, I think after two weeks) but Sharon refused."

Yes. Peres' opinion is that a low level of terrorism was ok, and Sharon thinks that no terrorism is acceptable. Personally, I agree with Sharon. I wonder, for example here in the US, what low level of Isalmic terrorism would be tolerated by Americans. I think none would be tolerated.


"From day one the Israeli government boycotted Arafat's initiatife by launching new attacks, refusing to talk and it finally destroyed the cease-fire with hamas (a very unique chance to negociate with a united palestinian front) by killing hamas-leaders."

For you, Jews defending themselves against Islamic terrorists who were actively planning to carry out more terrorist attacks like the ones I listed, is unaccpetable.

I disagree.



"He also showed no sign of any goodwill while the violence seriously diminished, blackmailing arafat by forcing him to stay in Ramallah, etc. (you can read it all above)."

That's an Arab lie. The fact is that when terrorism decreased even temporarily in any particular Palestinian-occupied city, then Israeli forces pulled back. What did Israel get in return a blood bath of Islamic suicide attacks.

[takeo]

"Yes, I do call the Arab armed forces exactly that. All Palestinians living within the Palestinian-occupied territories are controlled by Arafat and the terrorists missions are as a result of direct orders by Arafat to mass murder Jews. That is why a good portion of the terrorist attacks are being carried out by uniformed Palestinian troops. "

BS. Arafat only controlls the PA, and the PA controlls little more than its own buildings since the latest 6 months. Your claim that all armed groups are controlled by Arafat is ridiculous, hamas and Jihad were always opposed to Arafat since 1993 and even before, and since one year also parts of the PLO are acting against Arafat (al-Aqsa, etc.). Of course they will not kill Arafat, as such would only benefit israel, but by not complying to his orders they undermined his position. If Arafat dies (and even more if he would be murdered or evicted) the only consequence is a radicalisation of the palestinians, that is one of the few certainties of this conflict.
Peace is beneficial for Arafat but not for Hamas, so sabotaging the peace-talks would be hurting Arafat and helping Hamas, and that is exactly the common interest of extremist Palestinians AND sharon. Claims that the PA can controll all Palestinians within 24 hours is simply wrong and have been prooven false again and again.


"Yes. Peres' opinion is that a low level of terrorism was ok, and Sharon thinks that no terrorism is acceptable. Personally, I agree with Sharon. I wonder, for example here in the US, what low level of Isalmic terrorism would be tolerated by Americans. I think none would be tolerated. "

The situation in the US is totally different, the US isn't at war, the US isn't occupiing another land and parts of its neighbour's territory, the US isn't situated in the Middle-East.
A low level of violence is the best one can hope for in the current situation that has escalated so much, and if you insist on total calm on one side before THE TALKS can begin when at the same time you think you have the right to conduct attacks, than you are just searching any excuse for refusing to talk. And as long as the talks didn't start the violence will continue, so it 's a diabolic circle that doesn't end. The only possibility to end the violence without talks is unilateral withdrawel as happened in Libanon, but this wouldn't be the best solution for Israel's safety in the current conditions, as the PA is too weak. in libanon the Hesbollah controlled southern libanon after israel withdrawed so this is why the violence diminushed (not stopped as hesbollah is very radical and unlike the PA didn't recognise Israel).
So Perez is the only intelligent member of the israeli cabinet, not in the interest of the palestinians (as was evident in the past, perez never cared for the fate of the palestinians) but for israel's interest.
If Perez would have convinced the israeli government than a lot of people who died in the latest wave of violence would not have died. Anyway he talked with the president of the palestinian parliamnt today, porbably he will be punished by the extremists in the government for this.



"For you, Jews defending themselves against Islamic terrorists who were actively planning to carry out more terrorist attacks like the ones I listed, is unaccpetable. "

Well, never heard of the word cease-fire????????? the Brittish stopped persecuting the IRA after they committed themselves to a cease-fire. You can't expect a cease-fire to come from one side.
Besides the palestinians have reason enough to defend themselves against the military occupation of their lands, but still even the most radical palestinian group committed itself to a cease-fire, which Israel broke by new "targetted assasinations", that were planned long in advance, what makes clear that sharon never did anything to bring peace. You won't bring peace by using violence, you can destroy a terrorist network and a state by counter-violence, but you can never destroy an entire people by using violence. I think after many years of continued violence Israel should have learned that lesson, it will never win a war against the palestinians(not will the palestinians win a war against Israel), it can only win peace.




"That's an Arab lie. The fact is that when terrorism decreased even temporarily in any particular Palestinian-occupied city, then Israeli forces pulled back. What did Israel get in return a blood bath of Islamic suicide attacks."


They pulled back from PA-controlled territories (probably a moove to keep the Israeli government together and appease the international community), but at the same time they ordered more "targetted assasinations" and occupied other cities, and committed acts that had nothing to do with combatting terrorism(like destroying the airport and the radio-installations, Israel also attacked palestinian hospitals and prisons).

[takeo]

According to CNN in the latest year alone 10 new terrorist groups were created in the occupied territories and the popularity of the radicals has improved rapidly, because the PA lost the controll on the situation and Palestinians no longer believe in Arafat nor in peace. This is the only real achievement of one year Sharon.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
According to CNN in the latest year alone 10 new terrorist groups were created in the occupied territories...

sure. Arafat has been harboring terrorists and building their infrastructure, including terrorist training facilities and factories for manufacturing missiles, RPGs and high-grade suicide belt explosives.

I'm only surprised dthat there are just 10 new terrorist groups. If this number is true, it would indicate that Arafat has been slowing down in his old age.

[takeo]

it only prooves that the policy of Sharon to contain terrorism by using contra-terrorism is not working. No new groups were created during the years of Oslo, only peace will stop terrorism.

[watcher]

No Israel bent over backwards in their efforts towards peace by offering extreme concessions for these strangers occupying the soil of Israel... Yet these so named "palestinians" rejected the offer and chose to continue inexcusable bloodthirsty terrorist actions against Israel. So that and the ongoing terrorist actions against innocent civilians of Israel prove "palestine" is a label synonymous with terrorism.