How sad

[Madeline]

Have you ever wondered what makes others tick? Have you ever wondered if those without a conscience are enjoying life, themselves, or do they hate themselves so much that they only find pleasure in the suffering of others?

TEHRAN, Iran — Members of Iran's feared Basij militia forcibly marry female virgin prisoners the night before scheduled executions, raping their new "wives" and making it religiously acceptable to execute them, a self-professed member of the paramilitary group said.

The anonymous militiaman told the Jerusalem Post that at age 18 he was "given the 'honor' to temporarily marry young girls before they were sentenced to death."

In the Islamic Republic of Iran it is illegal to execute a woman if she is a virgin, the former guard told the newspaper. So the government arranges "wedding" ceremonies to be conducted the night before executions, and prisoners are forced to have sexual intercourse with a guard.

Raped by her new "husband," a female prisoner is now fit to be put to death.

"I regret that, even though the marriages were legal," said the militiaman, who told the Jerusalem Post he had just been released from prison himself after freeing two teenagers rounded up during post-election protests.

Some of the prisoners in his care were drugged with sleeping pills to make them docile, as the girls in their custody always fought back, he said, fearing the night of the rape more deeply than their executions the following day.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,534116,00.html?test=latestnews

[Mosche]

"[R]eligiously acceptable"! Any religion that promotes/condones such a thing is a piece of crap religion.

[Madeline]

"[R]eligiously acceptable"! Any religion that promotes/condones such a thing is a piece of crap religion.

Good morning Mosche.
Indeed, these are the same people BHO seeks to reason with. I don't doubt for a minute that the handlers are just as bad as the doers.
That makes BHO's quest rather infantile, doesn't it?

[Mosche]

Infantile is putting it mildly!

[orangeblossom]

We have known about it for a long, long time. What I FIND SAD...is INternational communities LACK in talking about it, publishing it....etc. Like for instance the pppl of ACLU.

But....they'd rather save gitmo ppl, who are in favor of treatment of such.

[ThetaRay]

That is repulsive, barbaric, and utterly sickening.

[idfBEEP]

That is repulsive, barbaric, and utterly sickening.

It's also from fox news.

[Madeline]

It's also from fox news.

What's your point? Do you know for a fact that this did not happen?
Presenting the evidence is on you.

[Aliyah1995]

What's your point? Do you know for a fact that this did not happen?
Presenting the evidence is on you.

Claiming it is from FOX and, therefore, cannot be true is a typical liberal knee-jerk reaction, which basically says, "all the evil happening in the world is the fault of Israel and her supporters [read America] and the Arab/Iranian regimes are 100% white and only reacting to the "evil regimes" trying to impose democracy on them...."

In other words, anything that seems less than acceptable that happens in these tyrannical regimes (like raping virgin prisoners before executing them) is either not true or a reaction to the evil Israel and America are perpetuating on this world and thus excusable:rolleyes:

[Madeline]

Claiming it is from FOX and, therefore, cannot be true is a typical liberal knee-jerk reaction, which basically says, "all the evil happening in the world is the fault of Israel and her supporters [read America] and the Arab regimes are 100% white and only reacting to the "evil regimes" trying to impose democracy on them...."

In other words, anything that seems less than acceptable (like raping virgin prisoners before executing them) is either not true or a reaction to the evil Israel and America are perpetuating on this world:rolleyes:

Exactly, and it is getting old.
Frankly, I have nothing but pity for those who give tyrants like Mahmoud and his henchmen the benefit of the doubt, while faulting the U.S. and Israel for all that ails the world.

[shravan]

I don't trust Fox News. They should give more details like how they rape,with or without Burkha, etc. with video proof then onlee I will trust Fox News.


Some of the prisoners in his care were drugged with sleeping pills to make them docile, as the girls in their custody always fought back, he said, fearing the night of the rape more deeply than their executions the following day.

WTF this means ? Why don't they use lashes before raping, hain ?

[Mediocrates]

Someone should ask John "Juan" Cole. He seems to be their main apologist in the west right now. Anyway I'm sanguine on the point. People are horrid. Millions are butchered raped tortured brutalized everywhere around the globe. Unless it can be tangentially related to delegitimizing Israel and the Jews, no one cares, least of all our "human rights" NGOs or the UN. So let's call it a draw. Screw them and their love of the Iron Age and when of if they ever run out of victims to kill we'll revisit each and every one of their claims of the "Jewish Question". Until then enjoy your death cult Baal worshiping maniacal genocidal racist murderous mayhem spouting house o horrors.

[ThetaRay]

I don't trust Fox News. They should give more details like how they rape,with or without Burkha, etc. with video proof then onlee I will trust Fox News.




wtf

So if CNN broke this story as it is described in the first post, would you still need to see a video of it happening to believe it?

[shravan]

wtf

So if CNN broke this story as it is described in the first post, would you still need to see a video of it happening to believe it?

I need to watch the video. And Islam allows raping of prisoners so don't make it a big deal.

[ThetaRay]

Oh no, no. NO big deal, I just find it hard to believe that you think it was completely made up. Putting spin on stories is the media's specialty, but I hope they haven't sunk so low as to completely pull crap out of their butts for nothing.

[Mediocrates]

Maybe it's real maybe it's not. The key is, it's PLAUSIBLE.

[idfBEEP]

What's your point? Do you know for a fact that this did not happen?
Presenting the evidence is on you.

There is no evidence to refute, all I see is some words apparently from an anonymous person who claims to have been in the Basij militia, who conducted the interview over telephone - the interview, which was apparently arranged by a "reliable" source.

I have no reason to trust anything from Fox news: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News_Channel_controversies

Although I do enjoy hearing perspectives on different middle eastern issues from a conservative POV.


Claiming it is from FOX and, therefore, cannot be true is a typical liberal knee-jerk reaction, which basically says, "all the evil happening in the world is the fault of Israel and her supporters [read America] and the Arab/Iranian regimes are 100% white and only reacting to the "evil regimes" trying to impose democracy on them...."

In other words, anything that seems less than acceptable that happens in these tyrannical regimes (like raping virgin prisoners before executing them) is either not true or a reaction to the evil Israel and America are perpetuating on this world and thus excusable:rolleyes:

Well hello Mr. Dramatic!

[Mil]

I have no reason to trust anything from Fox news

You American?

[idfBEEP]

No.

[bararallu]

Mill, he's no doubt a "world citizen," concerned one at that. Explanation: find a scape goat that everyone in the world would pick and be concerned about it publicly to impress ones friends and love interests. Standard politburo stuff.

[Mil]

And he likes wiki.

[Toadstool46]

If there was absolute fact to prove it.... would anyone here be any bit surprised??

[shravan]

If there was absolute fact to prove it.... would anyone here be any bit surprised??

NO. But i will be surprised to know if a PRISONER is drugged BEFORE raping.

This report goes against my logic and the reports where i read about rapes done by Military or Police People Around the WORLD.

What surprises me is Islam supports this kind of barbarism even today.

[Madeline]

I need to watch the video. And Islam allows raping of prisoners so don't make it a big deal.

Actually, to those being raped, it is a big deal.:tdown:

[Madeline]

There is no evidence to refute, all I see is some words apparently from an anonymous person who claims to have been in the Basij militia, who conducted the interview over telephone - the interview, which was apparently arranged by a "reliable" source.

I have no reason to trust anything from Fox news: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News_Channel_controversies

Although I do enjoy hearing perspectives on different middle eastern issues from a conservative POV.




Well hello Mr. Dramatic!

So what's your point. Should I take your word that this does not happen, esp given the fact that the Iranian regime is rather obscure?
Now, lets see, how did they treat those folks protesting the election?
Of course, you see it as an example of loving kindness, while, instead of researching news as reported by FNC, you trust someone elses opinion.
Nice try.
No go and find some facts.

[shravan]

Actually, to those being raped, it is a big deal.:tdown:

1) It was a Joke. Watching the video...:D

2) I don't care what happens in Iran or how badly Muslim girls are treated in Islamic countries. If the women there want respect then they have to stand on their own feet then only others can think of helping them.

Ever read about Persecution of Falun Gong in China ?

[Madeline]

1) It was a Joke. Watching the video...:D

2) I don't care what happens in Iran or how badly Muslim girls are treated in Islamic countries. If the women there want respect then they have to stand on their own feet then only others can think of helping them.

Ever read about Persecution of Falun Gong in China ?

Of course the women should stand up for themselves, and must be supported in doing so.
But the fact remains that horrific crimes are being committed against them in Iran, as well as in many other Countries, and that is no joke.

[shravan]

Of course the women should stand up for themselves, and must be supported in doing so.

Why we must support/teach them what to do & what not to do in their own country ?

Go tell Muslim Girls in America to stop wearing Burkha, etc. that would be much better.


But the fact remains that horrific crimes are being committed against them in Iran, as well as in many other Countries, and that is no joke.

In KSA if a Women gets raped the women gets punished for traveling alone.

[idfBEEP]

So what's your point. Should I take your word that this does not happen, esp given the fact that the Iranian regime is rather obscure?
Now, lets see, how did they treat those folks protesting the election?
Of course, you see it as an example of loving kindness, while, instead of researching news as reported by FNC, you trust someone elses opinion.
Nice try.
No go and find some facts.

1. I didn't say it didn't happen. I don't know if it happened and neither do you or anyone else at Fox News for that matter.
2. The protesters were treated badly.
3. How am I supposed to research an anonymous call? People are meant to trust the media in matters like this. However, I do not see Fox News as being included in the media.

[ThetaRay]

Why would you joke about seeing a video of a bunch of chicks getting raped. Why does it matter if they are being raped with their burqas on or off? Why the hell does it matter that Islam allows this crap? Does that justify these guys' actions?

You make all these points, all for the sake of discrediting Fox News reporting, but they are all (imho) baseless and circular.

[Mediocrates]

I think that are horrendous things everywhere every day. I think you can't save the world and if you try you'll only make it worse. Is it all that much more terrible this than it is to hang children from cranes in the public square after a 15 minute trial on the charge of 'being disrespectful'? Is this worse than sending a million 14 year old boys to their death in human wave attacks against Iraqi tanks and chemical weapon batteries? Is it worse than the rape armies of west Africa? I don't think it is.

[ThetaRay]

I don't understand where you are going Mediocrates.

Because there are worse things that could be done to these women, their plight doesn't deserve the attention given them by Fox News and the posters on this forum?

Any situation is a little less horrific if compared to an even more horrendous occurrence- and there is always a more horrendous occurrence. I don't think we are in any position to make judgments about who had it worse off. I would never want to be in ANY of those situations.

[Madeline]

I don't understand where you are going Mediocrates.

Because there are worse things that could be done to these women, their plight doesn't deserve the attention given them by Fox News and the posters on this forum?

Any situation is a little less horrific if compared to an even more horrendous occurrence- and there is always a more horrendous occurrence. I don't think we are in any position to make judgments about who had it worse off. I would never want to be in ANY of those situations.

Indeed, these women need others to speak for them, as need all victims, whenever and wherever.
I realize also we are limited in what we can do at any given time.

[Mediocrates]

I think there's an entire basket of bad news you could present about Iran. From a to z. I don't believe there's any particular reason to be picky or to feel one is more horrendous or newsworthy than any other. Sure it's awful. Because it's an awful place. But there's nothing we can do about it. I myself have been waiting 30 years for the Ayatollahs to fall. I'm afraid it's never going to happen on its own. The intelligentsia and the middle class of Iran are too comfortable to risk it on something as abstract as 'human rights'. And I don't believe for a second they don't know what's going on. They know. They're indifferent or scared.

[ThetaRay]

I agree 100%

[shravan]

Indeed, these women need others to speak for them, as need all victims, whenever and wherever.
I realize also we are limited in what we can do at any given time.

Even if the story is true this women were hanged after they were raped. I am still not getting your point. Better start helping women in Saudi Arabia they are treated worst than in Iran.

[shravan]

Seems like no one was even interested in watching the pictures of Falun gong torture victims. Islam would shiver in fear before the PRC...:)

[Tonto]

Very sad indeed, especially when the very best thing that one can say about islam is that it provides living proof that evil, dirty, filthy ugly, brain numbing evil actually exists in the world and flourishes. Yes, very sad indeed.

[Achihud]

Have you ever wondered what makes others tick? Have you ever wondered if those without a conscience are enjoying life, themselves, or do they hate themselves so much that they only find pleasure in the suffering of others?

TEHRAN, Iran — Members of Iran's feared Basij militia forcibly marry female virgin prisoners the night before scheduled executions, raping their new "wives" and making it religiously acceptable to execute them, a self-professed member of the paramilitary group said.
Doing good things releases chemicals in the brain that makes one feel better.
Doing bad things releases chemicals in the brain that makes one feel better.
Doing nothing all of the time makes one depressive.

The fact that you care but can't do a thing about the situation makes you sad. Better be indifferent. It's their ways, it's their belief system. It's their tears and tears are sometimes the only teacher left.

[Tonto]

The problem is: islam promotes, condones and even encourages absolutely despicable behavior suitable only to savages and barely human pukes, like muzleems, that are worse than any animal on the planet. Unfortunately, the incredible luck they've had to have been breeding and raping sheep over vast pools of oil, which is a necessity of Western Civilization, allows them to be of any notice to actual human beings. Otherwise, they'd be left to languish in their backwardness, barbarity and stupidity with no notice, except, perhaps, by missionaries wishing to subject themselves to some sort of sick and twisted penance for being civilized. No sane person would care to associate themselves with them otherwise.

[andak01]

Yeah Tonto, how sad. About you I mean.

[Tonto]

If you think about it :scratch:(for you andak, use your closest approximation), muzleems have been "selecting" for those with the most murderous and hysterical behavior for hundreds of years. In a society where rape, sodomy, murder and destruction are commonplace, as in islam, and seen as virtue instead of lawbreaking and wrong, the most mind twisted perverts imaginable are praised and revered as heros and go on to proliferate their perversity. In Western society, the civilized condemn this kind of behavior and punish it's perpetrators. This, at least, makes for a safer society and one in which peace and prosperity can flourish. It's true that is some sections of our western world, there are areas that are less than optimum in the civil respects, but those areas are usually those of interlopers (outsiders from the mainstream) who refuse to self-police. Muzleem society is crippled by a religion which, as I said, has a twisted, barbaric view of right or wrong....at least according to the western view. An alternate view of Western society says that the murderous traits that muzleems adore are merely sublimated and hidden rather than erased...and I believe that to be closer to truth than many would care to admit. That view is borne out by the cold efficiency of our western troops in battle, which the muzleems have had the misfortune to experience.
I summery, for all their breeding for warriors and murderous psychopaths that the muzleem have been indulging in for centuries, they've essentially failed. The numbers say they are much more successful at killing each other than when they go up against a non-muzleem enemy.....and then the numbers say that the muzleem are far superior at getting killed than as warriors. So I guess I should feel "sad" for the muzleem, but I just can't seem to be able to whomp up any pity that outweighs the contempt I feel for their stupidity. Thanks for your concern for my well-being andak. 'preciate it.

[andak01]

In Western society, the civilized condemn this kind of behavior and punish it's perpetrators.

I suppose that's why the barbarous Indians were put in their place six feet under or with a cross around their neck in a missionary school or supporting the paleface by buying booze. Oh yeah, you're going to brag about how they get to profit from their casinos. Of course that's in return for all the mineral rights on their property which are worth about a million times as much! Thanks for playing.

This, at least, makes for a safer society and one in which peace and prosperity can flourish. It's true that is some sections of our western world, there are areas that are less than optimum in the civil respects, but those areas are usually those of interlopers (outsiders from the mainstream) who refuse to self-police.

Just a few places, like in the tens of thousands of homocides committed here in America or the many more thousands of rapes.

Muzleem society is crippled by a religion which, as I said, has a twisted, barbaric view of right or wrong....at least according to the western view.

Sure, why look at our five pillars, charity, prayer, fasting, pilgrimage and declaration of faith! Horrible.

That view is borne out by the cold efficiency of our western troops in battle, which the muzleems have had the misfortune to experience.

Well actually, many Muslims fight with our forces, not against them. We have the cooperation and support of many Muslim governments. Your characterization of this war as a Crusade is a bald faced lie, not supported by anyone in the military.

Thanks for your concern for my well-being andak. 'preciate it.

It's the whole Stockholm Syndrome thing, an Indian who escaped genocide from Christians taking up a Crusade and all. It's entertaining when it isn't so nauseating.

[Tonto]

You need to get off indians andak. I'm beginning to think you're a blatant racist and should be banned from this forum. Why don't you go to the forums at some of the indian reservation sites and bash indians there?

[andak01]

You need to get off indians andak. I'm beginning to think you're a blatant racist and should be banned from this forum.

I'm trying to get through your head just how vile you sound. Are you reading from some 19th century screed on Indians and just replacing the words?

Why don't you go to the forums at some of the indian reservation sites and bash indians there?

Because they don't come here to bash me and mine.

[shravan]

andak,

By converting to another religion your cannot run away from what your ancestors did in the past.

Why don't you move to UK ?

[Tonto]

Indians, as a people, are living in PEACE here in America, whereas muzleems are killing, butchering, destroying, burning, and wasting all over the world in the name of a barbaric and stupid religion. That's one huge difference andak. You've no call to stereotype Indians as you do except that you're a racist. Muzleems are NOT a race, boy, they are a society that glorifies perversion and barbarity. By comparison, American Indians are LAMBS. Since 9/11/2001, there have been over 14000 islamic attacks on innocents, killing thousands and critically injuring thousands more! How does that compare with an Indian getting some booze and getting shitfaced???? The comparison there is ludacris! For pete's sake andak, get real and grow up....admit it, muzleems are animals!! (no offence intended to innocent animals) The society fostered by islam is rife with perversion and uglyness that is glorified by a 6th century brigand mindset. Detestable bunch of scum! And all that "peace and gentility" crap is just that....crap. A big fat lie. Actions speak much louder than words....injuns=peaceful....muzleems=crazed killers...that's what the events show us. The difference between the two societies is huge......islam is work of the devil. No doubt in my mind.

[bararallu]

injuns=peaceful....muzleems=crazed killers

Ok I had to laugh at that one.... LOL.

[Tonto]

bararallu, I just read a story about a palestinian girl who was raped by her brothers and made pregnant. Her mother (her frickin' MOTHER!) bought her a razor so she could commit suicide to "preserve the honor" (that's a laugh!) of the family. When she refused, her mother waited until the girl slept, then covered her head with a plastic bag and slit the girls wrists......thus preserving the family "honor"....what a pitiful joke! If I found a muzleem on fire and burning to death, I wouldn't even spit on him.

[bararallu]

That Tonto, is a nature of face/shame culture where fundamentaly any actual communal ethics and morals are missing. Lest we forget, the Japanese treated American etc POW like crap because that is the assumption of Bushido..a face/shame culture... if you *allow* yourself to get caught in that situation.. you deserve absolutely everything that happens to you. It's the complete inverse of something like chivalry. The Arabs and many other people around the globe are in that very mindset. And just for point of clarification regarding this: it predates and is not altogether reinforced or reinforces Islamic practice, which for all its failings still tries to impart an ethical system (typically limited to the Umma and sometimes "protected minorities" but still for this exercise it is undermined by this older understanding of righteous action, or justice).

[ThetaRay]

.admit it, muzleems are animals!! (no offence intended to innocent animals)

Burn, lol.

[ThetaRay]

Is it the religion that corrupts these people, or the people who corrupt the religion. A barbaric people can justify their deeds through religion, just as a primitive and barbaric religion can cause believers to act in such a manner.

Not saying Islam is barbaric and primitive... the above question is meant to be a complete generalization aimed at Tonto. I was just wondering what he thought.

Also, is it necessary to call all Muslims animals? Is it not a fact that the majority of Muslims are sensible people, peaceful people?

[andak01]

Indians, as a people, are living in PEACE here in America, whereas muzleems are killing, butchering, destroying, burning, and wasting all over the world in the name of a barbaric and stupid religion.

There are several things wrong about that statement. The Indians are only living in peace because they were forced into virtual prisons where all means of making war were removed from them. When, as at Wounded Knee they tried to make a statement, they were overcome with overwhelming force, some of them were killed and others were imprisoned.

Muslims all over the world are not killing, etc. Moreover, every time a Muslim murders someone, it isn't because of their religion. Muslims rob banks, rape women and do all manner of things out of greed and mental illness just like the rest of the world. They also wage war and build up armies just like everyone else. Factoring out all other motivations besides religion in what they do is simply dishonest.


That's one huge difference andak. You've no call to stereotype Indians as you do except that you're a racist. Muzleems are NOT a race, boy, they are a society that glorifies perversion and barbarity.

That's precisely what was said about the Indians.

By comparison, American Indians are LAMBS. Since 9/11/2001, there have been over 14000 islamic attacks on innocents, killing thousands and critically injuring thousands more!

How many of those in Iraq and Afghanistan? About half or more?

How does that compare with an Indian getting some booze and getting shitfaced????

Last time I checked, that's about all they are allowed to do if they don't want to live outside the reservation as white men. But if we could imagine back to a world where Indians had real self determination including the right to defend themselves from external rule, well, were there any acts of violence then?

The comparison there is ludacris! For pete's sake andak, get real and grow up....admit it, muzleems are animals!!

Precisely what was said about the savage native Americans. It was said that their culture and their religion were inferior and that they were only good dead. So you've completely taken on the mantle of a white racist. Bully for you!

Actions speak much louder than words....injuns=peaceful....muzleems=crazed killers...that's what the events show us. The difference between the two societies is huge......islam is work of the devil. No doubt in my mind.

No. Injuns caged, destorted, destroyed, only allowed to express themselves in a morally bankrupt way that provides a tourist attraction for white folk. And you are the perfect example. Instead of glorifying your own people, you seek to degrade somebody else.

[andak01]

Is it the religion that corrupts these people, or the people who corrupt the religion.

People do a lot of things in the name of religion. That doesn't necessarily mean that religion tells them to do those things. For example, a Texas woman cut the arms off her baby because God told her to. Another drowned all her children.

Erik Rudolph, a terrorist bomber who killed two people and injured at least 150 others, hid in the mountains of North Carolina for years with the help of locals. He was connected to the Christian Identity movement.

It is thought that Rudolph had the assistance of sympathizers while evading capture. Some in the area were vocal in support of him. Two country music (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country_music) songs were written about him and a locally top-selling T-shirt read: "Run Rudolph Run." The Anti-Defamation League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Defamation_League) noted that "extremist chatter on the Internet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet) has praised Rudolph as 'a hero' and some followers of hate groups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_group) are calling for further acts of violence to be modeled after the bombings he is accused of committing."[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Robert_Rudolph#cite_note-6)

...the FBI considered Rudolph to have "had a long association with the radical Christian Identity movement, which asserts that North European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Europe) whites are the direct descendants of the lost tribes of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Lost_Tribes), God's chosen people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_a_chosen_people)."[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Robert_Rudolph#cite_note-17) Christian Identity is a white supremacist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_supremacy) sect that holds that those who are not white Christians will be condemned to Hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell).[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Robert_Rudolph#cite_note-18) In the same article, the Post reported that some FBI investigators believed Rudolph may have written letters that claimed responsibility for the nightclub and abortion clinic bombings on behalf of the Army of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_(USA)), a group that sanctions the use of force to combat abortions and is associated with Christian Identity. [20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Robert_Rudolph#cite_note-19)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Robert_Rudolph#Alleged_motivations

[Mediocrates]

Well there's all sort of explosions in Pakistan right now. Muslim on Muslim violence. But in a country that's 99% Muslim one would expect that to be the case, statistically. I don't think it's representative of anything peculiar to faith. At least no more so than the US Civil War was religiously inspired.

[shravan]

Well there's all sort of explosions in Pakistan right now. Muslim on Muslim violence. But in a country that's 99% Muslim one would expect that to be the case, statistically. I don't think it's representative of anything peculiar to faith. At least no more so than the US Civil War was religiously inspired.

Pakistan Taliban wants to make Pakistan a Islamic Country. ...:scratch:


http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/oct/15/taliban-chief-threatens-to-fight-india-from-islamic-pakistan.htm

As his militants triggered a series of attacks and suicide blasts across Pakistan on Thursday, Taliban chief Hakimullah Mehsud threatened to dispatch terrorists to fight India, once an Islamic state had been created in Pakistan.

---

[andak01]

andak,

By converting to another religion your cannot run away from what your ancestors did in the past.

Why don't you move to UK ?

Because a lot of my ancestors came from UK and I can't run away from what they did either. :rofl:

In other words, Cyril Radcliffe did not draw the Partition lines in 1947. Wavell drew them in February 1946. On March 3, 1946, Wavell wired the secretary of state, "The first, most important is the Pakistan issue. It is essential HMG should have some policy on this... They may decide that the unity of India is of such importance that they will in no circumstances allow a complete partition of India and discount the adverse effect this will have on Muslims not only in India but in other parts of the world and are prepared to face the consequences that might include civil war in India and enmity in other Muslim countries". Clearly, Wavell was in favour of partition and he was blackmailing the British Labour Cabinet about the adverse consequences of not partitioning India to British interests in other Muslim areas.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1148741.cms

[shravan]

Because a lot of my ancestors came from UK and I can't run away from what they did either. :rofl:


http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=306399&postcount=26
I never had to apologize for my slave owning Christian ancestors before, not for their forced conversions or their land grabbing or anything else. It's "normal" to live on land that native Americans were cleansed from. Nobody ever apologizes for that, and seldom is any demand made that they should.


So you think that converting to other religion makes you free from the evils done by your ancestors ?

[andak01]

So you think that converting to other religion makes you free from the evils done by your ancestors ?

You'd think not, but here we are. I get blamed all day long for the actions of people who I'm not related to, whose language and culture I don't share and even whose interpretation of Islam is not mine. I get blamed for things that happened centuries ago. But I've never heard of a new Christian convert being condemned because of the existence of Christian terrorist groups or violent extremists, though those exist. I've never heard of demands made of a Christian convert that he apologize for the Crusades or for the Spanish Inquisition or for forced conversions in South America or papal kidnappings of Jewish children or for Christian complicity and participation in the Holocaust, etc. It doesn't happen and it's not likely to.

Furthermore, I've never heard of a Christian being scorned for not copping to guilt in those well documented events and some that continue to this day. When a Christian extremist kills an abortion doctor or blows up a building or gets up in front of a congregation and exhorts Christians to genocide (as in Rwanda), I hear no cries that Christianity should be reformed. I never heard a condemnation of Catholicism because of numerous cases of child molestation. The condemnation of those priests was not muffled, ignored and denied as was the Muslim condemnation of terrorism including marches, fatwahs, speeches, books and Muslims dieing for informing on and shooting at terrorists.

[shravan]

I get blamed all day long for the actions of people who I'm not related to, whose language and culture I don't share and even whose interpretation of Islam is not mine.

There are different interpretations in Islam....:scratch:

[andak01]

There are different interpretations in Islam....:scratch:

Gasp! Yes. Despite what you idiots attempt to portray, Islam is not some monolith where all Muslims think the same. Let's take a scenario from Iraq. In one city block you could have a very religious Sunni Muslim who translates for American soldiers, another Sunni who sets roadside bombs, a Shiite who works for the government and cooperates with the Americans and another Shiite who runs around as a vigilante torturing and killing Sunnis. You could have another secularist who drinks and womanizes, but wouldn't dream of criticizing the religion of his family and another who'd love to publish danish style cartoons. You could have a secularist who sets roadside bombs because he hates the American occupation. Any one of these walking down the street in America would be viewed with suspicion because they all look Arab and speak with an accent. In a word, for all of their different opinions and regardless of whether they are friend or foe, they are all being portrayed in the media as pretty much the same.

[Tonto]

Hmmmmm....Just like some folks talk about redskins huh? What you are trying to portray about poor misunderstood muzleems may, or may not, be true. However, Indians are still not riding war ponies up and down the streets and shooting arrows at any thing that moves......there are places that those identified as muzleems are doing far worse....they don't define what "sect" (and what are there? 50 or 60?), they just claim to be, or are pointed out as, muzleems of some variety. Several different "kinds" have publicly "declared war" on the world in general and the US and Israel in particular, and very few (I would say a miniscule amount) muzleems have stepped up and condemned the actions of the violent ones....so how is one to define which is which? As I pointed out earlier, muzleem or islam is not a race....Indians are easier to pick out of a crowd than a muzleem, and if we were to view a crowd of muzleem from all over the world, I defy you to pick out which "sect" they individually came from....or from which tribe a group of different Indians came from for that matter. What I can say about muzleems is that, on average, their societies are every bit as violent and backward as I have described and their kill numbers of innocents bears me out. I can only conclude that this behavior is condoned, not condemned, encouraged, and in some cases, DEMANDED by islamic society....and to me, that really sucks. It also pisses me off thoroughly. My reaction to such behavior is to get nasty. I can't understand, at all, why the world doesn't band together and erase all of islam from the planet....by any means convenient. For instance, why not give THEM back their own demands, and enforce it vigorously?

[baggi]

andak you are like all the other muslems that say oh no we dont hate jews we just dont think nothing israel does is right and oh btw israel is our land

[Tonto]

Some lovely little muzleem "moderate" named Mustafa al Yazid, another little Egyptian "cleric of the religion of peace", now says in an interview, that US citizens are just like the State of The US and should be targeted by "good" muzleems. If this guy is a moderate, what must the mouth breating, foam at the mouth, rabid muzleem dogs be like? Well, we know how to handle rabid dogs in the US.....messy clean up though.

[andak01]

andak you are like all the other muslems that say oh no we dont hate jews we just dont think nothing israel does is right and oh btw israel is our land

I've never said that nothing Israel does is right. In fact there are many things they've done right. I applauded efforts at early warning or shelters that prevent deaths from Hamas rockets. In fact, I'm pretty much in favor of any means taken that cause fewer than ten times as many civilian casualties as what the Palestinian attacks have caused to Israel. I was in favor of ground operations in Gaza and I came out in favor of Israel's attack on Syria assuming that there was a credible threat.

Furthermore, I've never, ever, ever said that Israel is my land or our land or any other variation on that. So you'd better actually read what I post before making comments.

[andak01]

Some lovely little muzleem "moderate" named Mustafa al Yazid, another little Egyptian "cleric of the religion of peace", now says in an interview, that US citizens are just like the State of The US and should be targeted by "good" muzleems.

That was the rationalization used by the US prior to bombing Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima. It is a common rationalization of people who consider themselves at war to think of all of the enemy as soldiers. From what I read on this forum, many feel that way about Gaza and southern Lebanon, that if someone lives in the same neighborhood as a terrorist, they can't be protected.

For that matter, such was the rationalization of Geronimo when he massacred settlers in retaliation for the killing of his own family. It doesn't make it right, just that it isn't that unusual. Fact is, you sound like you are saying it about Muslims right now.

[Tonto]

Goyathlay killed Mexican soldiers over that....Cochise was the one that killed about 100 white-eyes for the murders of his uncle and nephew. Try to get it right.
So, thanks for pointing out WWII for us....yep, now I guess we have justification for wiping out islam wherever we find it....huh?

[andak01]

Goyathlay killed Mexican soldiers over that....Cochise was the one that killed about 100 white-eyes for the murders of his uncle and nephew. Try to get it right.
So, thanks for pointing out WWII for us....yep, now I guess we have justification for wiping out islam wherever we find it....huh?

He didn't just kill Mexican soldiers. The Apache raided many settlements lead by Geronimo.

I don't think you should be saying "we" at this point. You don't speak for American policy or the policy of the military. We are not at war with Islam, speaking as an American I say that, and I would maintain it as a Republican or a Democrat, Conservative or Liberal. The fringe you represent is irrelevant.

Fact is, I don't think there are many on this board that maintain this is a war against Islam. If it was, no Muslim government on earth would give us any cooperation. As it is, Muslims fight in the US military and cooperate with them and train under them and obey their commands and suggestions. In fact, Muslims are an integral part of the fight against terrorism. They inform, they translate and they give their lives fighting it.

[Tonto]

Likewise, I'm sure, you fringe person,

[Kachah]

The Indians are only living in peace because they were forced into virtual prisons where all means of making war were removed from them.
That's it. THat's the answer. Thanks, andak.
Now wait till the world will finally learn this peace recipe. And learn it will.

[andak01]

That's it. THat's the answer. Thanks, andak.
Now wait till the world will finally learn this peace recipe. And learn it will.

Well that's what you Aussies did to the Aborigines isn't it?

http://www.countercurrents.org/polya190208.htm

[Madeline]

Anything to distract from current showings of 'loving kindness', courtesy of Muslim madmen.

[andak01]

Anything to distract from current showings of 'loving kindness', courtesy of Muslim madmen.

Just putting things in perspective Madeline. There is a criminal element of radical Islam that must be contained. But there is also a propaganda machine in place that is exploiting that threat to effect geo-political change across the world.

This was the case during the Cold War. There really were Communists trying to infiltrate our government. But, that threat was exploited to hamper free speech and to silence political opposition. A lot of innocent people were destroyed by that fear mongering. And our Constitution would have been too but not for some brave people speaking up for sanity.

This was the case in the Nazi era. There really were anarchists that threatened the security of the state and some of them were Jews. But that hardly excuses what happened next.

This was the case during the last struggles with the Indians. There really were Indians raiding and murdering settlers. By the time Geronimo was captured there were about 50 Indians raiding and murdering and about 10,000 federal troops chasing them. But to read the papers at the time, you'd have thought that the Indians far outnumbered the troops.

Does that mean I defend terrorists or Communists or anarchists or scalping Indians? Resoundingly NO!!! But neither do I support facism and fear mongering that can result in even worse outcomes. People need to be aware of the threat as it actually exists and not give way to hysteria.

[Mil]

Posted by Andak01:

That was the rationalization used by the US prior to bombing Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima.

I really doubt you want to go into this. I generally doubt you know what you are talking about exactly..... as it concerns Nazis, communists and everyone else.

[Mediocrates]

Well yes that and smallpox, measles, influenza and the plague. 19 out of 20 dropped like flies.

[Tonto]

The fact remains that EVIL in the form of men, and groups of men, exist on this planet. It seems that some are determined to try to force others to change their ways by violent means whether the actions of others are their business or not. Intrusion seems to be the normal MO of islam and imposing their ideas on others by any violent means...even if that means violence and murder of other muzleems. It appears to be some form of hysterical, fanatic, insanity infection to outsiders while, at the same time, perfectly logical to muzleems. They see nothing wrong with violence, in fact, their religion seems to demand it. The protestations to the contrary........"taquiya"...is that the word? Dang, muzleems are distasteful people!
As usual, your analysis of why the Indians reverted to peaceful is flawed andak. Most people are willing to embrace peace if they are relatively comfortable and allowed to live as they please and be left alone. If you'd care to note, reservations are pretty peaceful as long as outside interference is minimal. If one views the world as a vast reservation on which many diverse societies are forced to live (which is basically true), the worst troublemakers on the rez are muzleems right now....and in any pocket of muzleems in the entire world, it's usually the muzleems and their religion of peace that create the most violence. Seems that in their "islamic" areas, if they go too long without some form of violence, they make some....as if it were an actual NEED. I'll bet there is a higher incidence of serial killers and mass murderers in islamic areas that any other areas in the world.....basically because islam fosters a form of insanity, allows it to flourish, and even encourages that insanity.

[andak01]

Posted by Andak01:

That was the rationalization used by the US prior to bombing Dresden, Tokyo and Hiroshima.

I really doubt you want to go into this. I generally doubt you know what you are talking about exactly..... as it concerns Nazis, communists and everyone else.

I know precisely what I'm talking about. The Japanese during WWII were producing war materials in civilian neighborhoods. Tokyo was bombed in a grid configuration that assured an evenly burning conflagration.

"We knew we were going to kill a lot of women and kids." General LeMay later observed: "Had to be done."

http://books.google.com/books?id=uwNIbHQzVUUC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=justification+for+tokyo+bombing&source=bl&ots=r5pLSTJgWd&sig=IdAbYETrD7WTizO9tx7HqFI3n-s&hl=en&ei=QbXYSqTIFYHSlAfMkISiAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBIQ6AEwAg#

The figure of roughly 100,000 deaths, provided by Japanese and American authorities, both of whom may have had reasons of their own for minimizing the death toll, seems to me arguably low in light of population density, wind conditions, and survivors' accounts. With an average of 103,000 inhabitants per square mile and peak levels as high as 135,000 per square mile, the highest density of any industrial city in the world, and with firefighting measures ludicrously inadequate to the task, 15.8 square miles (41 km2) of Tokyo were destroyed on a night when fierce winds whipped the flames and walls of fire blocked tens of thousands fleeing for their lives. An estimated 1.5 million people lived in the burned out areas.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo#cite_note-3)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo

In other words, they justified tens of thousands of civilian lives because the civilians were equated with the military.

[andak01]

The fact remains that EVIL in the form of men, and groups of men, exist on this planet. It seems that some are determined to try to force others to change their ways by violent means whether the actions of others are their business or not.

From what I can see you are more eager than our own military to force Muslims to change our ways by violent means.

Intrusion seems to be the normal MO of islam and imposing their ideas on others by any violent means...even if that means violence and murder of other muzleems.

Same as Christianity, sometimes it was and sometimes it wasn't. Indonesia was never invaded by Muslims, nor was China, but there are millions of Muslims living in both places. There are seven million Muslims in America and none of them was forced to be Muslim.

It appears to be some form of hysterical, fanatic, insanity infection to outsiders while, at the same time, perfectly logical to muzleems.

Speak for yourself. There are plenty of non-Muslims that respect Islam as one of the great religions of the world and who understand that terrorism is a not particularly religious manifestation of it.

As usual, your analysis of why the Indians reverted to peaceful is flawed andak. Most people are willing to embrace peace if they are relatively comfortable and allowed to live as they please and be left alone.

And you consider being raised in a missionary school on a reservation where you are stripped of your culture being "left alone"? :rofl:

If you'd care to note, reservations are pretty peaceful as long as outside interference is minimal. If one views the world as a vast reservation on which many diverse societies are forced to live (which is basically true), the worst troublemakers on the rez are muzleems right now....and in any pocket of muzleems in the entire world, it's usually the muzleems and their religion of peace that create the most violence.

So that's why the American military budget is twenty times the size of all the Muslim countries put together? Oh I forgot, nukes, tanks, helicoptors, aircraft carriers, nuclear subs aren't violent. WWI, WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam weren't violent. The invasion of Iraq wasn't violent. They really screwed with your head didn't they? How much did they take out during the lobotomy?


I'll bet there is a higher incidence of serial killers and mass murderers in islamic areas that any other areas in the world.....basically because islam fosters a form of insanity, allows it to flourish, and even encourages that insanity.

I'll bet if you live in your own world of hatred, you'll never have to read a book again.

United States 5.8 homicides per 100,000
Yemen 3.98
Palestine 3.85
Iran 2.93
UK 2.03
Israel 1.87
Indonesia 1.05
Saudi Arabia .92


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[shravan]

So that's why the American military budget is twenty times the size of all the Muslim countries put together? Oh I forgot, nukes, tanks, helicoptors, aircraft carriers, nuclear subs aren't violent.

Andak,

I hate America and i have my reasons. But you as a American should be the last one asking that question irrespective of your religion.

[andak01]

I really doubt you want to go into this. I generally doubt you know what you are talking about exactly..... as it concerns Nazis, communists and everyone else.

You don't know me if you doubt there is anything I don't want to go into. :cool:

[andak01]

Andak,

I hate America and i have my reasons. But you as a American should be the last one asking that question irrespective of your religion.

I as an American have the right to ask that question and to vote for my representative government accordingly. That's the great thing about this system and I support it.

I don't hate America, but I can't pretend that everything we do is correct and that everything someone else does is barbaric. That is a typical imperialist attitude and it wasn't any more moral for the British to hold it in India than for their imperialist predecessors the Mughals.

[shravan]

I as an American have the right to ask that question and to vote for my representative government accordingly. That's the great thing about this system and I support it.

Leave America then because its a super power and in needs all the stuff if you like it or not.

[Mediocrates]

When Bomber Harris's crews were asked why they rained down incendiary bombs on German towns their response was generally "Coventry".

If you show no mercy you will be shown none.

[Mil]

You don't know me if you doubt there is anything I don't want to go into.

I really doubt you want to bring in WWII into all this. You don't know anything about it

[andak01]

When Bomber Harris's crews were asked why they rained down incendiary bombs on German towns their response was generally "Coventry".

If you show no mercy you will be shown none.

OK, just so we've got this straight, then terrorism isn't killing innocent women and children and non-combattants, it's killing them when they are on the righteous side as opposed to the evil side? I think the real question is, could we have won the war without those actions and what lessons did we learn.

[andak01]

You don't know me if you doubt there is anything I don't want to go into.

I really doubt you want to bring in WWII into all this. You don't know anything about it

I didn't live through it. I had family members that served and fought. It's much more real to me than it to my children's generation.

[Mil]

My entire family lived through, fought it, and was affected by it. It is very real for me.

[Kachah]

Well that's what you Aussies did to the Aborigines isn't it?

http://www.countercurrents.org/polya190208.htm
Not only that. We have just convicted 5 moslems of terrorism conspiracy and preparation to a terrorist act. the men were plotting violent jihad on Australian soil (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26221515-601,00.html). We have also raided the houses of more moslems in Victoria to find them plotting more attacks on innocent civilians. And I tell you, at some point we will grow so sick and tired of your Sharia law is going to prevail throughout this land. ... You tell Howard this. Islam is going to rule this land. (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26221515-601,00.html) that we'll end up doing precisely what had been done to the Indians in your interpretation - ridding your folk of all means to wage wars and conduct their despicable violence on their vampire-imams' orders.
And, by the way, contrary to your statement, terrorism IS very bold religious manifestation of Islam due to the concept of shahidism and 72 or whatever virgins awaiting the "martyr". The whole thing is purely ideological without any practicality and cause and effect approach - apart from the fact of course that the moslem chiefs get to usurp and exercise power and live a great life totally undeserved.

[takeo]

When Bomber Harris's crews were asked why they rained down incendiary bombs on German towns their response was generally "Coventry".

If you show no mercy you will be shown none.

So you mean the US should be treated as the US treated Iraq and Vietnam?

[CanDo]

So you mean the US should be treated as the US treated Iraq and Vietnam?

The US should be treated as they treated all of Europe and Japan, rebuilding all of the countries after World War II.

The US's generous Marshall Plan helped to restore Western Europe, and Deming helped to restore Japan.

Stalin's Russia, kept Eastern Europe in misery and enslavement, until finally freed by the brave actions of US NATO forces.

It's amazing how many people and cultures were enslaved, raped and plundered, and then stripped of all of their natural resources by corrupt Russian tyrants. The damage done to the environment by the sick Russian leaders over the past few decades will never be fixed, not even through the continuing aid from America.

Now Russia is trying to enslave, plunder and rape Georgia. Russian forces, unlike Israeli and US forces directly murder civilians. The Russians have civilian murder down to a science, and proved it by murdering countless millions of their own people.

So...... in sick takeo's mind Russia, Nazi Germany, Fascist Arab/Muslims are the good guys, and the US and Israel are the bad guys?! How sick is that? :tdown:

[Mediocrates]

OK, just so we've got this straight, then terrorism isn't killing innocent women and children and non-combattants, it's killing them when they are on the righteous side as opposed to the evil side? I think the real question is, could we have won the war without those actions and what lessons did we learn.


Well I'm not sure. What I am sure of is that people who have doubts shouldn't involve themselves. That's why being a conscientious objector is entirely legal and legitimate. One of the sons of one of the Bielski brothers ("Defiance") gave a talk yesterday at UNC-CH courtesy of Chabad. One of the points he spoke on was revenge and how much that was underplayed in the movie. The Bielski brothers really reserved the worst punishments for local civilians who aided the Germans, uncovered Jews, hurt or killed Jews. What they did could easily be called terrorism and I for one am entirely ok with it.

I think (the fascists in Spain with Guernica and) the nazi's with their attack on Coventry really opened up a problem they themselves were not prepared to suffer. They annhiliated millions of Slavs in Russia, Jews all over Europe. They sent V-2 missiles into heavily populated city centers in England and elsewhere. They bombed Rotterdam flat.

And did they think, what? It wasn't going to happen to them? That somehow everyone would be too horrified? No I don't think they cared about Hamburg and Cologne more than they cared for London. Well boo hoo for them.

[bararallu]

And yet neither Truman nor Churchill [not even Stalin!] are deemed war criminals... how nice to have the veto is it not?

[Mediocrates]

Curtis LeMay once quipped "if we lose we'll be war criminals". He invented low level daylight saturation firebombing. One of his attacks incinerated 17 sq miles of Tokyo and killed more than 150,000 people.

[CanDo]

... I don't hate America, but I can't pretend that everything we do is correct and that everything someone else does is barbaric.

No government is going to run as effectively as a well run business. It is not possible, since we elect our leaders based more on their promises and their speaking ability, rather than on their skills. So.... governments are going to make mistakes. But, in America's case, the good that we have done for this world, in promoting freedom and democracy, in sending aid to needy countries, in discovering health cures, in providing a path for America's own citizens to thrive, and in inventing the internet, and in sacrificing it's best, the young men and women in combat, in sometimes necessary, sometimes misguided attempts to keep this world free and safe for democracy, should never be discounted.

OTOH, most of the nations of this world are barbaric, do little to help others, or keep their people in poverty and misery. You can count the really decent, caring, ethical nations on your fingers, and perhaps a few toes. :)

[andak01]

OTOH, most of the nations of this world are barbaric, do little to help others, or keep their people in poverty and misery. You can count the really decent, caring, ethical nations on your fingers, and perhaps a few toes. :)

I don't believe in an ethical nation. Nations have various policies, some of which are ethical and some of which aren't at any given time. Well run nations can tend to be more ethical than others, but one policy may contradict another policy. Suppose for example, we are very good neighbors and allies to one nation, but; in order to do that, we have to act in relatively unethical ways with another. Perfect example would be our long relation with the UK which has often centered upon a dual imperialism regarding oil nations. Or overlooking human rights or ecological issues in order to stimulate our economy.

Thinking of ethical and unethical as a label instead of a bar that should constantly be sought after and reassessed leads to dangerous complacency and judgementalism.

[Mediocrates]

Holocaust Denier speaks:

http://www.solomonia.com/blog/archive/2009/10/the-iranian-holocaust-denier-speaks/index.shtml

[andak01]

Holocaust Denier speaks:


Sounds like he's relying almost entirely on European sources for his anti-semitism.

[Mediocrates]

It's like a plague reservoir that periodically breaks out when conditions are apt.

[andak01]

It's like a plague reservoir that periodically breaks out when conditions are apt.

I can't disagree.

[Madeline]

It's like a plague reservoir that periodically breaks out when conditions are apt.

He is an attention seeker, among many other evil attributes.

[ItsMyJewty]

Originally posted by Mediocrates: Holocaust Denier speaks:

Anti-Semites have never forgiven the Jews for the Holocaust.

[Mediocrates]

By the By, the peace peaceloving Persians of peace this week sentenced to death many people 'convicted' of crimes related to the election protests and riots. They even went so far as to forbid the burial of that young lady who was murdered and who's death was captured on You Tube.

[Madeline]

By the By, the peace peaceloving Persians of peace this week sentenced to death many people 'convicted' of crimes related to the election protests and riots. They even went so far as to forbid the burial of that young lady who was murdered and who's death was captured on You Tube.

And the sad part is that some, esp on the left, seem to be convinced that it is just "Zionist Propaganda". I am not kidding.

[Tonto]

From what I can see you are more eager than our own military to force Muslims to change our ways by violent means.

Force them to stop running airplanes into buildings and killing people for no other reason except not being muzleem is a pretty good cause in my estimation.:cool:

Same as Christianity, sometimes it was and sometimes it wasn't. Indonesia was never invaded by Muslims, nor was China, but there are millions of Muslims living in both places. There are seven million Muslims in America and none of them was forced to be Muslim.
So what? There's lots of crazies here....take a look at California fer instance.
Listen to some of the crap the twits and dingbats that make movies are saying out loud...they're idiots too.:p


Speak for yourself. There are plenty of non-Muslims that respect Islam as one of the great religions of the world and who understand that terrorism is a not particularly religious manifestation of it.
Lots of people can be duped and too often are. Islam is slavery...and stupid in my opinion.;)


And you consider being raised in a missionary school on a reservation where you are stripped of your culture being "left alone"? :rofl:

How much time have you ever spent on a rez? :stick: Long enough to drive to the Casino? I lived at San Carlos and there was no mission school that I ever saw. All the schools were ours, and the teachers were Apache, like me. The religion I was instructed in there was the traditional one....and later/during Roman Catholic....and given a choice...or not. It was always up to me.

So that's why the American military budget is twenty times the size of all the Muslim countries put together? Oh I forgot, nukes, tanks, helicoptors, aircraft carriers, nuclear subs aren't violent. WWI, WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam weren't violent. The invasion of Iraq wasn't violent. They really screwed with your head didn't they? How much did they take out during the lobotomy?

Muzleem countries are basically poor sewer pits of poverty, except where others have found oil and extracted it for the muzleems who happened to be lucky enough to have been breeding and humping their sheep there.:rolleyes: They allow no technology, so there is no productivity base or factories except of the most primitive type. Any weapons they have were bought by the charity, drug money or extortion they can manage, or steal. Get real andak, this is too easy. If I'd have had a lobotomy, I'd probably be a muzleem...or a good candidate for one....but no, I'm not as asinine as you are.:lol:


I'll bet if you live in your own world of hatred, you'll never have to read a book again.

United States 5.8 homicides per 100,000
Yemen 3.98
Palestine 3.85
Iran 2.93
UK 2.03
Israel 1.87
Indonesia 1.05
Saudi Arabia .92

And....I'd be willing to bet that those numbers are faked. How about Iran and the rest?? How about the 14,000+ jihadi attacks since 9/11/2001? Now that's funny! :rofl::rock:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

abc.....

[andak01]

How much time have you ever spent on a rez? Long enough to drive to the Casino? I lived at San Carlos and there was no mission school that I ever saw. All the schools were ours, and the teachers were Apache, like me. The religion I was instructed in there was the traditional one....and later/during Roman Catholic....and given a choice...or not. It was always up to me.

Is that the one where 60% of the people live below the poverty line and there is 25% unemployment? Sweet! And you're making fun of Arab billionaires who live exactly where they want to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Carlos_Apache_Indian_Reservation

BTW, you're a liar. What's that little thing on top? Oh yeah, a cross!

St Charles Apache Mission School is located in the center of the San Carlos Apache Indian reservation in central Arizona. Its mission is to help create a future for those who have so little and need so much. The K-6 grades established in 1965 is the focal point of this Catholic School. Here approximately 130 students of all faiths learn not only the academics which are so essential for their future, they also learn the culture and languages of the Apache Indian.

http://www.stcharlesindianschool.com/

Muzleem countries are basically poor sewer pits of poverty, except where others have found oil and extracted it for the muzleems who happened to be lucky enough to have been breeding and humping their sheep there.

So the others worked for the Muslims and made them into multi-billionaires. And who is stupid?

And....I'd be willing to bet that those numbers are faked. How about Iran and the rest?? How about the 14,000+ jihadi attacks since 9/11/2001? Now that's funny!

I've seen that list. It includes everything from suicide bombs to spray paint and threats.

[Tonto]

That school was 100 miles from where we lived and we had nothing to do with it, so you still don't know your ass from your hat. Why don't you get a hobby.....like pulling wings off of flies or something useful? What does this have to do with Iran dumbass? You digress all over the place to run from the fact that the muzleem are the scum of the earth and YOU CHOSE to be one of the little turds bobbing around in it. No group is more vicoious, savage, backward and violent than the muzleems. Peaceful? My brown ass! That says some very negative things about your character....like perhaps you feel you should be spit on because you are so unworthy as a human being. You have to join up with muzleems because you like to beat on and subjugate little girls? You like to scream invective at Christians because you were never "accepted"? Pitiful. Get some help.....or start taking your meds again. Geez, what a jerk!

[andak01]

I lived at San Carlos and there was no mission school that I ever saw.

That school was 100 miles from where we lived and we had nothing to do with it, so you still don't know your ass from your hat.

So there was a mission in the largest community in San Carlos. Presumably if you never saw it, you never visited there- or you were lying in the first place. At any rate, you attempted to cover up what anyone can research in order to make me look like I don't know what I'm talking about. Yes, of course, Indian children were forced into Christian schools for centuries. They had their religion and culture ripped from them for centuries. Perhaps you are young enough to have missed that, but it happened within my lifetime.

No group is more vicoious, savage, backward and violent than the muzleems. Peaceful? My brown ass! That says some very negative things about your character....like perhaps you feel you should be spit on because you are so unworthy as a human being.

Unlike you, I don't feel anyone deserves to be spit on simply because of their religion. I also don't make a hobby of making other people hated.

You have to join up with muzleems because you like to beat on and subjugate little girls?

I didn't and I don't. People who like to do that don't need or use any scripture for their actions.

San Carlos man sentenced to 30 years in federal prison for molesting 4 young children

http://www.newsday.com/san-carlos-man-gets-30-years-in-molestation-case-1.1397414 (http://www.newsday.com/san-carlos-man-gets-30-years-in-molestation-case-1.1397414)

Civilization has loosened, in some places broken, the bonds which regulate and hold together Indian society in its wild state, and has failed to give the people law and officers of justice in their place. This evil still continues unabated. Women are brutally beaten and outraged; men are murdered in cold blood; the Indians who are friendly to schools and churches are intimidated and preyed upon by the evil-disposed; children are molested on their way to school, and schools are dispersed by bands of vagabonds; but there is no redress. This accursed condition of things is an outrage upon the One Lawgiver. It is a disgrace to our land. It should make every man who sits in the national halls of legislation blush. And, wish well to the Indians as we may, and do for them what we will, the efforts of civil agents, teachers, and missionaries are like the struggles of drowning men weighted with lead, as long as by the absence of law Indian society is left without a base.

http://www2.csusm.edu/nadp/r877001.htm (http://www2.csusm.edu/nadp/r877001.htm)

People who life in abject poverty, unemployment and surrounded by meth labs, shouldn't cast stones. Then again, since you've had your bows and arrows taken away, that's all you've got left.

You like to scream invective at Christians because you were never "accepted"?

I'm not screaming any invectives. My parents and all of my closest relatives are Christian and I love them dearly and they love me. My wife and my in-laws love them too and they love us. What other fiction do you want to make up?

[Tonto]

I thought this forum was called "Israel Forum". What does San Carlos, Fort Apache, Mescallero, Jicarilla or whatever have to do with this? The digression is to bash Indians? This is a direct insult? Clarify what the heck you're doing andak. I really don't see you doing anything except bait me. So what is it kid? You're obviously bothered and probably off your meds. You also obviously have a hate problem....check yourself in some place before you hurt yourself or others....please. The fact that you seem to want to hurt my feelings, call me names, insult me directly using racist ideas and insult my race, and receive no retribution is unconscionable. For the insults you have offered and I've had to suffer there would, undoubtedly, have dire consequences "on the street" from anyone you said those things to face to face. You have been doing this sort of thing for a long time, you're quite expert....this is how you "get off"....it's like mental masturbation to you. You are an armchair combatant who loves to jab and bait, insult and cry foul when insulted. You are actually an insect. Small, mean and contemptible. You've gotten away with this behavior for YEARS and glory in it. You are really a disgusting, worthless and contemptible waste of a human being. Grow up and try to better yourself....people that read you and understand, think you're a very clever and malicious child....and you are. You say people "love you". That is a blatant lie. If they knew the real you....they'd feel sorry for you, but not love you. You've never shown them the "real" andak.

[andak01]

I thought this forum was called "Israel Forum". What does San Carlos, Fort Apache, Mescallero, Jicarilla or whatever have to do with this? The digression is to bash Indians? This is a direct insult?

I'm sorry, was denegrating your culture and your culture's religion bashing? I was just showing you what a hypocrite you are, that you deny centuries of forced conversion and pretend that isn't a possible trait of Christianity as well as any other triumphal religion. You're so Stockholm syndromed by the whole thing that you sound like a Christian Crusader.

You also obviously have a hate problem....check yourself in some place before you hurt yourself or others....please. The fact that you seem to want to hurt my feelings, call me names, insult me directly using racist ideas and insult my race, and receive no retribution is unconscionable.

Hey, I can adopt any tone you're willing to use with me. Would you care to stop religion bashing?

You are an armchair combatant who loves to jab and bait, insult and cry foul when insulted.

I am averse to combat whether from you or anyone else. Anyone who is willing to take a step away from "Bomb Mecca!" and "Muzzie scum" and "cult of Satan" will find me quite civil and even willing to listen to opinions quite different from my own.

You are really a disgusting, worthless and contemptible waste of a human being.

That sounds rather combattive to me.

You say people "love you". That is a blatant lie. If they knew the real you....they'd feel sorry for you, but not love you. You've never shown them the "real" andak.

Ask me how much I care about your opinion of my family. Since your opinion of my religion is totally misguided and based on propaganda, what else are you wrong about?

[Tonto]

Yawn! You do provide endless tedium

[andak01]

You didn't sound any too bored a moment ago.

[Tonto]

You bore me to death boy. How many muzleems were slaughtered by other muzleems today? Come on, use all that BS skill and show us the latest muzleem body count....and spin it for us.

[andak01]

You bore me to death boy. How many muzleems were slaughtered by other muzleems today? Come on, use all that BS skill and show us the latest muzleem body count....and spin it for us.

Considering that none of the rest of the world places a religion on its body count, your exceptional count of Muslims only is its own spin. What about Muslim terrorists that get killed by Muslims? You going to count them too as part of your body count? Of course! Any violence committed by a Muslim out of context and for whatever reason whatsoever gets counted. And any violence committed by a non-Muslim doesn't, regardless of how heinous it is. So therefore, you are almost oblivious to events in the Congo, the Mexican border, Central America and West Africa that exhibit extreme violence with scores of people killed and sometimes for religious motives. You're looking at the news in a vacuum, as though nobody but Muslims does anything or ever did anything violent.

Again, I point to your own hypocrisy. Could you be content with a writing of history that says that the Apache were the most violent thugs that ever lived and omits the part about what happened to them? Is that fair?

[ThetaRay]

So you are saying that violent Islamists are acting in defense, as were the Apaches?

[Tonto]

The most violent thugs in the world right now are muzleems cause of their "religion of peace" TELLS THEM TO BE MURDEROUS BASTARDS. Apaches fought long and hard for their survival and a homeland....note the number of Apache Reservations and their size. Note also that their total population has grown where others have declined. Are you saying that islame is about establishing a peaceful homeland? I think not. I think you simply spin to see your own words in print and to impress yourself with your erudition and cleverness. You are a pitiful human being. You really should get help.

[andak01]

The most violent thugs in the world right now are muzleems cause of their "religion of peace" TELLS THEM TO BE MURDEROUS BASTARDS.



No it doesn't. Are there Muslims that murder? Of course. But, as evidenced by the 99.9% of us that aren't involved in crimes, there isn't any compulsion to murder.


Apaches fought long and hard for their survival and a homeland....note the number of Apache Reservations and their size. Note also that their total population has grown where others have declined.


That's kind of a failure to aculturate isn't it. I think someone like you needs to go back any show them how to be a redneck so that they can fit in.


Are you saying that islame is about establishing a peaceful homeland? I think not.

No. Islam is as prone to triumphalism as Christianity or as Judaism was when Jews were empowered by their own imperialism during biblical times. No doubt about it, Islam can act imperially. But you yourself are living proof that so can Christianity. Here you are pretending to be an Evangelical Crusader with all the apologetic tools that Christian missionaries have provided you and no perspective on the truth of Christian triumphalism.

Christianity, which infers that it is the religion of peace conquered three continents partly by the sword. Charlemagne beheaded over 4000 people in Verdens for not converting. The Crusaders rode up to the knees of their horses in blood. The Pilgrims stuck an Indian head up at the entrance of their settlement for twenty years. Indians were given a choice of living in Prayer towns, losing their language, religion and dress, or being slaughtered. And today, Christian groups like Christian Identity and the Aryan Nation are involved in terrorist bombings and assasinations in America and others are ravaging the countryside in Africa.

So in fact, Christianity can be every bit as violent as Islam and often is. There are people in that peaceful religion that are calling for the bombing of Mecca and the genocide of over a billion Muslims.

[andak01]

So you are saying that violent Islamists are acting in defense, as were the Apaches?

I think they are backed into a corner like the Apaches were. I think they will ultimately lose like the Apaches did. And I think that their options are running out. And I would no more give over this world to the Islamists than I would to the Apaches.

[Tonto]

Arrogant little narcissist aren't you andak? The Christians and Jews don't have a book (with hadiths to back it up) that tells them to go out and kill, cause them to use all non-muzleem as 2nd class citizens, burn down churches, cause little girls to burn to death because allowing them to escape a burning building improperly covered would be a violation of sharia....but the muzleems are the ones that are guiltless, without sin and wonderful, warm human beings in your eyes. Yes, I'll admit that there are probably many MINOs out there that would be slaughtered as apostates if their views get in the way of muzleem zealots....and the fact remains that they are scared silly, in many instances, to step up as a human being rather than a muzleem and speak up against atrocities.
And by the way, I'm a pagan. The Apaches "lost" because of technology....the same thing that will eventually defeat islam. You should hope your muzleems make out as well as the Apache. From what I can see of non-oil rich muzleem countries, a Reservation would be a couple steps up. Most muzleem countries are the worst rat-holes in the world.

[andak01]

Arrogant little narcissist aren't you andak? The Christians and Jews don't have a book (with hadiths to back it up) that tells them to go out and kill, cause them to use all non-muzleem as 2nd class citizens, burn down churches, cause little girls to burn to death because allowing them to escape a burning building improperly covered would be a violation of sharia...

I suggest you read the book of Joshua, or find out what the hero King David paid for his dowery, that hero whose symbol is flown on the flag. Or better yet, read the many condemnations of that fire by Muslims.

but the muzleems are the ones that are guiltless, without sin and wonderful, warm human beings in your eyes.

I never said that and I don't believe it. Muslims are as prone to human failings as any other humans.

Yes, I'll admit that there are probably many MINOs out there that would be slaughtered as apostates if their views get in the way of muzleem zealots....and the fact remains that they are scared silly, in many instances, to step up as a human being rather than a muzleem and speak up against atrocities.

And what about Muslims that give their lives fighting atrocities? What about those who march in to Waziristan, or fight and die in the American military. What about informants who risk the lives of their families? Oh yeah, they get in the way of your bigotted stereotypes.


And by the way, I'm a pagan. The Apaches "lost" because of technology....the same thing that will eventually defeat islam. You should hope your muzleems make out as well as the Apache. From what I can see of non-oil rich muzleem countries, a Reservation would be a couple steps up. Most muzleem countries are the worst rat-holes in the world.

And you should know.

[Tonto]

Problem is, the muzleem that "stand to" are few and far between. Sometimes when I talk to muzleems I know, they look over both shoulders before they answer a question....what's that about? Easy to see that they're scared.
The other question is, when will muzleems that act moderate now be forced by radical muzleems to make a choice? And how does that anticipated event impact the trust factor of non-muzleems? How can they be trusted? I don't give a damn about the Old Testament, or for anything "biblical" for that matter, except for the "red words" parts, so don't run that crap on me....not impressed. The best of the Bible is the red words.....the rest is just the dressing. I'm just a pagan that happens to like Jesus Christ.

[dayag]

I suggest you read the book of Joshua, or find out what the hero King David paid for his dowery, that hero whose symbol is flown on the flag...

Andak, you have brought up King David's dowry several times. I think it is unfair to judge Bronze Age people like David by modern standards, just as I wouldn't hold Muhammad to such standards. I am sure you don't like it when people accuse Muhammad of being a "rapist" based on modern laws concerning age of consent. So why treat a man considered to be a prophet in the Quran and responsible for the Zabur (Psalms) so shabbily? Some fairness, please!

[andak01]

Andak, you have brought up King David's dowry several times. I think it is unfair to judge Bronze Age people like David by modern standards, just as I wouldn't hold Muhammad to such standards.

I bring it up whenever it is suggested that the Muslim scripture is the most violent thing going, or that the "proof" that Islam is wrong is that something Muhammad did is illegal today. There is a lot of violence and ill behavior in the Bible, and some of it under the smiling approval of G_D.

The real point is, whatever the scripture, a religion has the ability to be used for good or for evil. Some people read the Book of Revelations and become Mother Theresa and some read it and become Charles Manson.

Whatever David did or didn't do isn't the hinge that makes or breaks Judaism. There's a lot more to it than that and I recognize that.

I am sure you don't like it when people accuse Muhammad of being a "rapist" based on modern laws concerning age of consent. So why treat a man considered to be a prophet in the Quran and responsible for the Zabur (Psalms) so shabbily? Some fairness, please!

You're point is made. I'll back off. There is no need to dwell.

[dayag]

I bring it up whenever it is suggested that the Muslim scripture is the most violent thing going, or that the "proof" that Islam is wrong is that something Muhammad did is illegal today. There is a lot of violence and ill behavior in the Bible, and some of it under the smiling approval of G_D.

The real point is, whatever the scripture, a religion has the ability to be used for good or for evil. Some people read the Book of Revelations and become Mother Theresa and some read it and become Charles Manson.

Whatever David did or didn't do isn't the hinge that makes or breaks Judaism. There's a lot more to it than that and I recognize that.

You're point is made. I'll back off. There is no need to dwell.

Yes, there is no scripture written that cannot be interpreted in different ways and used for good or for ill. The Reverend Fred Phelps and the Reverend Barry Lynn draw their inspiration from the same Bible.

[Madeline]

Yes, there is no scripture written that cannot be interpreted in different ways and used for good or for ill. The Reverend Fred Phelps and the Reverend Barry Lynn draw their inspiration from the same Bible.

Don't forget David Coresh while you are at it.
On the other hand, can you imagine the backlash by the Muslim community if BHO did to a Mosque what Clinton did to the Coresh compound?

[dayag]

Don't forget David Coresh while you are at it.
On the other hand, can you imagine the backlash by the Muslim community if BHO did to a Mosque what Clinton did to the Coresh compound?

One mosque? Many in the Middle East already think we are invading their countries and murdering their people by the hundreds of thousands as part of a "crusade" to destroy them. It's not easy being the Great Satan. It is a 24/7 job!

[Madeline]

One mosque? Many in the Middle East already think we are invading their countries and murdering their people by the hundreds of thousands as part of a "crusade" to destroy them. It's not easy being the Great Satan. It is a 24/7 job!

Lets start in Country...plenty of Mosques with questionable affiliations....not that I call for any violence, but some should perhaps be more closely watched and/or closed.
Let the ME world think what they want, they don't like us one way or another. Eventually we have to quit kissing rear ends.

[Achihud]

There is a lot of violence and ill behavior in the Bible, and some of it under the smiling approval of G_D.
What we can read in the Bible is what (at some occasion) had to be done with other tribes and why? What we don’t read is that God was “smiling” since God can’t be seen in such a way.

So why isn’t this line reported for religion bashing? I mean, are we not so sensitive anymore about derogatory remarks whether being done deliberately or manipulative?

I guess we are no shouting, yelling, ever-insecure-about-our-conviction-believers anymore who otherwise would still be easy to get offended by anything that might stir up emotions coming from a comfort zone, provided and sustained by a brainwashed state of mind.- That in turn only could be the result of a religion that promises, insinuates and indoctrines a lot and then leaves behind the believer in an opposite world of strange intellectual failure to brainwash others into this very same Allah delusion. -Yet, not without the threat of killing everyone that considers openly to apostate?

No, we are not so insecure to think for ourselves what we want to believe about God in general and what we want to put into question. Neither are we willing to blow ourselves up in desperation for an otherwise never fulfilling fantasy of final victory. Nowadays, these are things only muslims are willing to do.
So no wonder only other weak-minded persons can feel a certain attraction to this religion or feel sympathetic to its causes.

THAT’S THE WORK OF THE DEVIL.

[Tonto]

While you're at it andak, contend with these numbers....More people are killed EACH YEAR by muzleems than in all 350 years of the Spanish inquisition. Islamic terrorists kill more people EVERY DAY than the Klu Klux Klan has in the last 50 years. 19 muslim hijackers killed more innocents in 2 hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years. More civilians were killed in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. Since 9/11 there have been 14,359 muzleem attacks on other people, in the name of religion. For the week of Oct 31 to Nov 8, there were 156 muzleem attacks, killing 119 people, and critically injuring 230. Yep, muzleems are sure forbearing and gentle folk. I'd hate to see what would happen if perhaps they really were pissed. Think about these slightly modified quotations dude, "Muslims are the vilest of animals" "Show mercy to one another, but be ruthless to muslims" "How perverse are the muslims" "Strike off the heads of muslims as well as their fingertips" "Fight those muslims who are near you" "Muslim mischief-makers should be murdered or crucified" Any of those sound familiar? They should. Change ONE WORD (Muslim) and they are direct quotations from your koran. I'm sure no expert but that sure don't read like any Bible I ever read from. They tell me that there are 138 passages that talk violence in the koran....on people either women or "other than muzleems"....please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong sonny, I'd love to read the spin-o-rama you'd put on all that. Maybe you can give me some more info on what's happening in San Carlos that matches anything going on in the muzleem glorious worldwide jihad. Them injuns must be a bunch of slackers when it comes to murder, rape, sodomy, burning homes and churches and such.....Dang, I hope they don't get all jealous and depressed over it!

[bararallu]

Rape is Rape. The Jewish women that the first Muslims "married" where raped. Whether that was 1500 years ago is irrelevant.

[Mediocrates]

I'm reading a history of the Christianization of the Nordic countries in the 10th century. Interesting; convert or we exterminate your whole town. But at the same time the hajib al Manzor in al Andulus at the same time brought the Caliphate to its peak by invoking holy war and jihad. Maybe it's an affect of the times and the culture.

[Achihud]

Maybe it's an affect of the times and the culture. No it's the DEVIL, now BELIEVE or else...:rock:

[andak01]

Rape is Rape. The Jewish women that the first Muslims "married" where raped. Whether that was 1500 years ago is irrelevant.

Then it's also irrelevant how long ago it was that Moses shaved the heads of the Midianite virgins and gave them over to his men. It's either relevant in both cases or irrelevant in both cases. You can't judge Muhammad (SAW) by the standards of our day and then give King David or Joshua or Elijah or Moses as described in the Torah a pass.

In the final analysis, it does not make the world a better place for us to compete at dragging each other's religions through the mud.

If a Muslim with a Quran in one hand and a gun in the other starts shooting at you, are you going to wish he didn't have a gun or wish he didn't have a Quran. When a disgruntled co-worker comes after you with a gun are you going to breath a sigh of relief that you aren't being killed by a Muslim? No. He's a criminal because he's doing something violent. It's a pipe dream to believe that getting rid of Muslims is going to end violence in the world.

[andak01]

I'm reading a history of the Christianization of the Nordic countries in the 10th century. Interesting; convert or we exterminate your whole town. But at the same time the hajib al Manzor in al Andulus at the same time brought the Caliphate to its peak by invoking holy war and jihad. Maybe it's an affect of the times and the culture.

Basically it's theocratic imperialism and it works about the same from religion to religion. That doesn't mean that everyone is on board with it of course.

On the other hand, pure secularism isn't immune from violent intolerance as witnessed by The Terror in France or the purges of Stalin and Mao.

[bararallu]

Then it's also irrelevant how long ago it was that Moses shaved the heads of the Midianite virgins and gave them over to his men. It's either relevant in both cases or irrelevant in both cases. You can't judge Muhammad (SAW) by the standards of our day and then give King David or Joshua or Elijah or Moses as described in the Torah a pass.


Exactly right, save for the word "fact" and it's friend "veracity". So prima facie you are exactly right if I believed that Mosses parted the sea and David slew Goliath. I don't. So the story is interesting, it may echo actual historical figures who may have lived (certainly David, and most probably mosses) rather than historical composites. They may even have committed serious crimes as we see them and as they were. But neither they nor their acts per se are easily denoted as "facts" to me, they have no veracity, they are a-historic homilies. To many religious Jews that may be different. To me they are things to take note of as a basis to formulate ethics etc...

Au Contraire, the events with Mohammed. They happens in the historical epoch, although flying camels (or was it horses) do not lend themselves to serious discussion either. But when Muslims say the story was true, I take it on face value that the women in the story were raped. To you as a Muslim, that would mean they were in actuality raped. To me as a Jew it explains a little of how the Jews were wiped out from Arabia.

[andak01]

Exactly right, save for the word "fact" and it's friend "veracity". So prima facie you are exactly right if I believed that Mosses parted the sea and David slew Goliath. I don't. So the story is interesting, it may echo actual historical figures who may have lived (certainly David, and most probably mosses) rather than historical composites.

So you're saying you have more confidence in the historic record as written by Muslims than the historic record as written by Jews? Which parts of the Torah have you chosen to believe? For that matter, which parts of the Sunnah have you chosen not to believe?

If you believe that the Sunnah and Quran are an accurate historic documents, then you must also believe as we do that the Treaty of Hudaybiyah was broken by the Quraish. You must also believe, as we do, that the Medinans broke the spirit of the Charter of Medina by betraying the Muslims to their enemies and by refusing to defend them.

But when Muslims say the story was true, I take it on face value that the women in the story were raped. To you as a Muslim, that would mean they were in actuality raped. To me as a Jew it explains a little of how the Jews were wiped out from Arabia.

I see. But when the Torah says that the Midian virgins had their heads shaven and were married off to the Jews, you don't believe that? And if it did happen that way, then it wasn't rape? If the Torah says that G_d commanded Moses (SAW) to kill all the Midian men, you don't believe it? And if the Muslim account claims that Muhammad treated his wives well or there is an account of a happy marriage, you don't believe that? And if the Muslim account says that Muhammad (SAW) freed slaves through manumission, you don't believe that?

That's a mighty fancy filter you have there.

Numbers 31:17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

31:18
But all the women children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

31:19
And encamp ye without the camp seven days; whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify yourselves on the third day and on the seventh day, ye and your captives.

[Tonto]

I kinda liked the story of the talking tree, or was it talking rock? The burning bush had more class. Mo was scared of dogs too....what was up with that? I especially liked the story of mohammad dressing in Ayisha's night gown....laughed out loud on that one.

[andak01]

I kinda liked the story of the talking tree, or was it talking rock? The burning bush had more class. Mo was scared of dogs too....what was up with that? I especially liked the story of mohammad dressing in Ayisha's night gown....laughed out loud on that one.

I'm having trouble believing that you've ever read anything. It doesn't show. Muhammad (SAW) was scared of plague carrying dogs. He had nothing against dogs used for hunting or protection.

[shravan]

Muhammad (SAW) was scared of plague carrying dogs.


Really ?

I thought the angels do not enter a house in which there is a statue, picture (image) or a dog. The Prophet said: “The angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog or an image.” (Narrated by Muslim, 2106).

If you want a Halal source let me know.

[andak01]

Really ?

I thought the angels do not enter a house in which there is a statue, picture (image) or a dog. The Prophet said: “The angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog or an image.” (Narrated by Muslim, 2106).

If you want a Halal source let me know.

And I suppose you've never heard of a back yard or a dog house? :tdown:

[shravan]

And I suppose you've never heard of a back yard or a dog house? :tdown:

No. If i am wrong let me know I am here to learn...:rolleyes:

[andak01]

No. If i am wrong let me know I am here to learn...:rolleyes:

It'll be a full time job, but here goes. The Sunnah on dogs is that dogs should be kept only for protection or hunting, not as pets. Also, since they can be filthy animals, it's best not to keep them inside lest they urinate and then walk over your prayer area. If you touch a dog, you need to wash carefully before prayer. It is for that reason, not because we have any hatred for dogs, which after all are Allah's creation, that Muslims seldom keep dogs. One of my best friends here, a Pakistani, has two dogs that he keeps in the back yard.

[bararallu]

So you're saying you have more confidence in the historic record as written by Muslims than the historic record as written by Jews? Which parts of the Torah have you chosen to believe? For that matter, which parts of the Sunnah have you chosen not to believe?

I believe that 1500 years ago are nearer to today than events from 2500 hundred years ago, or 3500 years ago. There were also many more people in the world, and those people where more educated as a matter of writing and development of language generally. Dark ages notwithstanding. That is what I mean by historic, vs fantastic. I furthermore believe many things may have occurred in the Bible, sans miracles etc, but they have been amplified, obfuscated, and conflated for a variety of reasons.

If you believe that the Sunnah and Quran are an accurate historic documents, then you must also believe as we do that the Treaty of Hudaybiyah was broken by the Quraish.

Did you see me write that? No. You should know by now that if you're going to call me on something you better be precise. If I make a statement it is not generic and there are logical reasons for saying it. That said, I dont need to believe in the Sunnah and Quran to know that the Jews of the Hijaz where wiped out.

I dont need to believe in those things to know that Muslims believe in those things and swear by them, their interpretations of why, rather than 'whether', is unimportant in an attempt to deduce facts, without access to the crime scene. Lastly, I'm quite happy condemning Jewish/Hebrew slaughter when it is presented 'pshat' (face value), and not within the scope of our interpretation of our tradition (rather than actual events, hence history).

Whether Mohammed treated his wives well is furthermore self contradicting and nonsensical: there are in fact positions in your religion that state he was 'murdered' by one of them, and she was a Jew too. The reasons provided for that were theological. In actuality human behavior needs less explanation. I'd say there is enough motivation as her whole clan was slaughtered, then her being raped repeatedly over the years would be motivation enough to poison the man who has done all this.

I say this understanding a story, as a measure of necessary context. Not historical reference, even though the veracity improves with Muslims swearing to it, and it happening not 10,000 or 3000 years ago but 1500-1600 years ago.

Unless you think that love can spring eternal from seeing your family decapitated- and a vile desert brigand forcing himself upon you night after night something that is endearing like a summer walk in the park and a bunch of flowers. All of this could be true for cave men much less just pre-modern people in the historical epoch.

Do I know she existed? Not as far as I know the Mohamed existed. I dont know if Job or Yehezkel existed either. But if they did what Mohammad did, then they would be rapists, Jews or not. The story of David per se is condemning of David BTW.

[shravan]

It'll be a full time job, but here goes. The Sunnah on dogs is that dogs should be kept only for protection or hunting, not as pets. Also, since they can be filthy animals, it's best not to keep them inside lest they urinate and then walk over your prayer area. If you touch a dog, you need to wash carefully before prayer. It is for that reason, not because we have any hatred for dogs, which after all are Allah's creation, that Muslims seldom keep dogs. One of my best friends here, a Pakistani, has two dogs that he keeps in the back yard.

What kind of a logic is that ? I think before praying every one takes a bath and its has nothing to do with dog, pigs or goats...:rolleyes:

And dogs have been staying with Humans for a really long long time - much before we started to talk.

Another reason not to believe in Evolution ?

[andak01]

Did you see me write that? No. You should know by now that if you're going to call me on something you better be precise.

OK, then precisely, I'm going to call you out on your cherry picking of Islamic texts. If you think that the Islamic texts are more accurate then you can't just say they're accurate only when they enforce what you think about Islam and inaccurate when they don't.

The Islamic text nowhere says that the Treaty of Hudaybiyah was a ruse or a power grab. In fact, the Muslims (aside from Muhammad (SAW) and a few others) were very disatisfied with it. When they asked that it read "the Prophet of Allah", it was Muhammad (SAW) who insisted it be erased from the document.

What's more, it is the Islamic texts which relate in detail just how the Quraish broke the treaty and how they chose war over payment for having attacked a Muslim ally.

If I make a statement it is not generic and there are logical reasons for saying it. That said, I dont need to believe in the Sunnah and Quran to know that the Jews of the Hijaz where wiped out.

And you don't need to believe it to know that there was a Holocaust committed by Christians or to know how many pogroms were committed by them because the New Testament tells them that the Jews killed Jesus.

I dont need to believe in those things to know that Muslims believe in those things and swear by them, their interpretations of why, rather than 'whether', is unimportant in an attempt to deduce facts, without access to the crime scene. Lastly, I'm quite happy condemning Jewish/Hebrew slaughter when it is presented 'pshat' (face value), and not within the scope of our interpretation of our tradition (rather than actual events, hence history).

Then if you want to be so careful about the facts, you should know that there is no historic evidence for the execution of the Bani Quraizah men. This entire story comes down to us from a single source.


The reasons provided for that were theological. In actuality human behavior needs less explanation. I'd say there is enough motivation as her whole clan was slaughtered, then her being raped repeatedly over the years would be motivation enough to poison the man who has done all this.

But the Islamic record clearly states that the Banu Quraizah invited the neighboring tribes to slaughter the Muslims in contradiction to the Pact of Medina. When the Muslims were being attacked in a trench, the people who had promised to help were abetting the enemy.

In a word, it is the Islamic record that makes clear that the motive for the execution had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with betrayal. Pretending that they were killed for being Jewish is your own addition which has nothing to do with the record. Even the surviving Jew who told the story to Ibn Ishaq didn't say that.

I say this understanding a story, as a measure of necessary context. Not historical reference, even though the veracity improves with Muslims swearing to it, and it happening not 10,000 or 3000 years ago but 1500-1600 years ago.

A lot of thinks happened 1500 years ago. Heraclius outlawed Judaism and killed more Jews than all of the PEOPLE who were killed on the Arabian peninsula in the Prophet's lifetime.


Unless you think that love can spring eternal from seeing your family decapitated- and a vile desert brigand forcing himself upon you night after night something that is endearing like a summer walk in the park and a bunch of flowers.

Why is it more acceptable if you happen to be Midian and your whole family is killed and your village is burned and the only reason you are spared is because you are a virgin?

Oh yeah, because the execution of the Banu Quraizah men (not their entire families), for which there is no historical evidence and a single contemporary source, resonates with you better than the Jewish Histories for which again there is little history evidence.

I'm at a loss for why that is. How can you believe that Islamic history is so accurate and then write everything positive it says off as a pack of lies? For that matter, what does calling the Torah a fantasy do to Jewish claims to Israel? If it's a fantasy, does that make the borders a fantasy too?

[dayag]

... For that matter, what does calling the Torah a fantasy do to Jewish claims to Israel? If it's a fantasy, does that make the borders a fantasy too?

I think Israel has a moral right to exist because we moved there peacefully while the land was under Ottoman and later British rule and bought land and developed it and the Arabs refused to live with us in peace. If we had been left under their rule, they would have exterminated us.

Israel's Biblical borders were much larger than its current boundries.

[Madeline]

As an aside...
http://vodpod.com/watch/1428923-sweden-in-grip-of-islam

Coming to a city near you?

[andak01]

I think Israel has a moral right to exist because we moved there peacefully while the land was under Ottoman and later British rule and bought land and developed it and the Arabs refused to live with us in peace. If we had been left under their rule, they would have exterminated us.

I disagree with that assessment. The population of Jews did grow in many parts of the Ottoman Empire for centuries regardless of whatever persecutions there were. It was never the aim of the Ottomans to kill all the Jews.

Israel's Biblical borders were much larger than its current boundries.

Still, would you disagree that there is a Biblical basis behind Zionism and that is the reason that any place other than where Israel is would have been and was unacceptable to the Zionists? It doesn't take even that much to accept Israel's right to exist. I've never questioned that.

[bararallu]

Andak,

I'm willing to continue this conversation (and please note that I do make the the distinction of Mohamed as a possible historic figure, the Quran read ad lib vs within a tradition, and the religion that you practice per se- I consider them distinct things, that sometimes overlap), but I'd like a clarification to continue.

Do you consider it plausible: to have women see their fathers and brothers slaughtered, beheaded actually IIRC, and then forcefully bound in quick ceremony, sexually engaged, and not consider it Rape?

Lets take that out of context of the Quran, your tradition and your religion, but understand what we are generally talking about here, and then sure we can apply the results to my tradition or any other.

Again, I just want to clarify this point, which I hope you similarly see as cynically misogynist, clarified before I get into it further. Since I hope that you will not defend wife beaters claiming that their wives need a small tap on the head to get their minds straight- nor situations that go far further still.

Lastly,

My claim, and Israel's claim (this point I've made to you at least 1/2 dozen times at least over the years) has nothing to do with the Bible or Religion. The land is the cradle of my civilization. The bones of my ancestors are buried in those hills when we began to speak our language and created our distinct culture. It is my ethnic right to live in the land of my people, religion not withstanding. See my link for actual basis of claims. If you find me a flying horse or camel or a bottle with a Jinn in it, I may rethink my commitments, until then please understand that ethnically cleansing us from our region, and our land, is something we have no reason to entertain seriously in a discussion. Lastly just because your life revolves around religion, please make no assumption on others.

[dayag]

I disagree with that assessment. The population of Jews did grow in many parts of the Ottoman Empire for centuries regardless of whatever persecutions there were. It was never the aim of the Ottomans to kill all the Jews.

Sorry I wasn't clearer. I wasn't referring to the Ottomans. When I wrote "If we had been left under their rule, they would have exterminated us," I was referring to the Palestinians at the end of the Mandate period.

Still, would you disagree that there is a Biblical basis behind Zionism and that is the reason that any place other than where Israel is would have been and was unacceptable to the Zionists? It doesn't take even that much to accept Israel's right to exist. I've never questioned that.

Was the love of our homeland and our yearning to return kept alive during our long exile by the Bible? Undoubtedly. The point I was trying to make was solely that Israel's borders are not based on those in Bible which would be much larger than its current size.

[Mediocrates]

As an aside...
http://vodpod.com/watch/1428923-sweden-in-grip-of-islam

Coming to a city near you?


Probably not, but I don't live in Europe. I don't really care what happens to Sweden.

[Tonto]

[QUOTE=dayag;312306]Sorry I wasn't clearer. I wasn't referring to the Ottomans. When I wrote "If we had been left under their rule, they would have exterminated us," I was referring to the Palestinians at the end of the Mandate period.



Wasn't the palestinian plan to allow the Jews to buy all the land they wanted and then confiscate it from them after the British left? Come on andak, you gotta know the answer on this one! Let's see the "spin".

[andak01]

Do you consider it plausible: to have women see their fathers and brothers slaughtered, beheaded actually IIRC, and then forcefully bound in quick ceremony, sexually engaged, and not consider it Rape?



What I consider is that taking women captive after a military victory was the norm under the Quraish, the Byzantines, the Greeks, the Romans and the Jews (at such time as they had military victories. To pretend otherwise is not honest. It does not make the practice right, but Jesus (SAW) himself didn't abolish slavery or give women equal wages or the vote many other things that we take for granted today.

I don't see that Muhammad (SAW) has to meet a standard far higher than that of Joshua or Moses or Elijah or any Byzantine or Persian ruler for his religion to be acceptable. Our beliefs are our beliefs, you don't have to share that respect. But don't expect that Muhammad (SAW) has a standard that accords more with modern secular values than that found in the religious doctrine of his contemporaries or those before him.

Jews in Arabia at the time of Muhammad owned slaves. Jews in Byzantium owned slaves. In fact, Constantine decreed a law to forbid them from owning Christian slaves. Jews were involved in the slave trade just like everyone else. And whenever women are involved in the slave trade, sexual slavery isn't far from the surface.

You can pretend that a Muslim is immune to human greed when involved in slavery, but that would make them unique among all the world's people, because, there is slave traffikking the world over to this day shared among adherrents of every religion.

Again, I just want to clarify this point, which I hope you similarly see as cynically misogynist, clarified before I get into it further. Since I hope that you will not defend wife beaters claiming that their wives need a small tap on the head to get their minds straight- nor situations that go far further still.

Anything that you would consider wife beating, I do as well. Any protections such as shelters, counciling or police protection that are afforded to non-Muslims in our society should be afforded to Muslim women in all societies. The Quran says that a man should be the protector of women and that is impossible if he is harming them in any way.

[andak01]

The point I was trying to make was solely that Israel's borders are not based on those in Bible which would be much larger than its current size.

Not to say that the kernel of Zionism isn't contained in the Torah or that none of the Zionist leaders ever wished for those ancient borders.

Without the Torah, Israel could just as well be in Uganda or South America as was once suggested. It is impossible to exaggerate the specific importance that the story of the Torah has making that spot THE spot.

[andak01]

Wasn't the palestinian plan to allow the Jews to buy all the land they wanted and then confiscate it from them after the British left? Come on andak, you gotta know the answer on this one! Let's see the "spin".

How would you go about proving such a claim? I forgot, you don't do the proving thing, do you?

[Mediocrates]

In Iran - they have convicted quite a few people for these protests. Some got the death sentence. Some got prison terms. On teenager who happens to be Jewish got 2.5 years for throwing a rock. One person got 13 years for some vague offense.