Palestine problem hopeless, but not serious

[Sanket]

Palestine problem hopeless, but not serious (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KH18Ak01.html)
By Spengler
August 18 2009.


"The situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable," declared United
Sates President Barack Obama in his June 4 Cairo address. Really? Compared to what? Things are tough all over. The Palestinians are one of many groups displaced by the population exchanges that followed World War II, and the only ones whose great-grandchildren still have the legal status of refugees. Why are they still there? The simplest explanation is that they like it there, because they are much better off than people of similar capacities in other Arab countries.

The standard tables of gross domestic product (GDP) per capital show the West Bank and Gaza at US$1,700, just below Egypt's $1,900 and significantly below Syria's $2,250 and Jordan's $3,000. GDP does not include foreign aid, however, which adds roughly 30% to spendable funds in the Palestinian territories. Most important, the denominator of the GDP per capita equation - the number of people - is far lower than official data indicate. According to an authoritative study by the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies [1], the West Bank and Gaza population in 2004 was only 2.5 million, rather than the 3.8 million claimed by the Palestinian authorities. The numbers are inflated to increase foreign aid.

Adjusting for the Begin-Sadat Center population count and adding in foreign aid, GDP per capita in the West Bank and Gaza comes to $3,380, much higher than in Egypt and significantly higher than in Syria or Jordan. Why should any Palestinian refugee resettle in a neighboring Arab country?

.
.
.
Palestinian Arabs are highly literate, richer and healthier than people in most other Arab countries, thanks to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency and the blackmail payments of Western as well as Arab governments. As refugees, they live longer and better than their counterparts in adjacent Arab countries. It is not surprising that they do not want to be absorbed into other Arab countries and cease to be refugees.
.
.
.
Once the problem is diagnosed with this kind of clarity, the solution becomes obvious:
# Cut Western support to the Palestinians with the aim of reducing living standards in the West Bank to those prevailing in Egypt, as an incentive for emigration.
# Demilitarize Palestinian society: offer a reward for turning in weapons, seize them when necessary, and give newly-unemployed gunmen employment weaving baskets at half pay.
,
,
,
Palestine problem hopeless, but not serious (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KH18Ak01.html)
==============

Must Read for everyone.

[Yala]

This is what anyone with any common sense has known for years. The Palestinians live much better than Arabs in Arab countries.

[Sanket]

This is what anyone with any common sense has known for years. The Palestinians live much better than Arabs in Arab countries.

Yala,

I never knew that. Because whenever they showed Gaza in Discovery, BBC or CNN it was always about poverty.

[Yala]

Yala,

I never knew that. Because whenever they showed Gaza in Discovery, BBC or CNN it was always about poverty.

I know. Imagine if they showed what kind of abject poverty Egyptians live in, or the Syrian countryside. They would NEVER because there are no Jews involved...On CNN if they ever report on anything going on in Arab countries, and they rarely do, they show the capital cities where people look "Western." It's all propaganda....

By the way, I'm really surprised you didn't put 2 and 2 together. You know where there is real poverty there is starvation. On any special on Gaza you don't see any starved looking kids or people, and you know if there was even 1 these propaganda stations like the BBC would rush to film it.

[Sanket]

By the way, I'm really surprised you didn't put 2 and 2 together.

I added different 2 + 2 but the result was the same. I knew they never wanted the solution but i thought that was planned by the upper level guys.

But know it seems like most of the Palestine's are happy with the current situation.

---
Couple of days back i say Generation Islam - CNN.
Now i understand why that mother told she wants to kill all the Joo's and wants to send her children to Hamas Camps when they grow up.....:vomit:

[Yala]

They aren't happy, they are brainwashed to hate. How could people be happy under such circumstances? But the truth is they aren't starving and they live in better conditions than most of the other Arabs in the Middle East, and they are also more educated. Also, as you know the Palestinians did vote for Hamas. Their elections and democracy are far from perfect, but again better than other Arab societies which are never scrutinized or condemned by the world...

[AlanSilver]

That is why the conflict is never ending. Hamas, Fatah benefit from all the hand outs. plus if there was peace these thugs would actually have to govern. which they don't want to do. Although to be fair Israel also benefits from aid. My cousin who lives in Israel always said if there were peace what would Israel do with the army? would be hard to find jobs etc for all of them. Ditto Hamas.

[Yala]

Although to be fair Israel also benefits from aid. My cousin who lives in Israel always said if there were peace what would Israel do with the army? would be hard to find jobs etc for all of them. Ditto Hamas.

Dumb argument. Israel would have more time and money to focus on academics and scientific research.

[bararallu]

That is why the conflict is never ending. Hamas, Fatah benefit from all the hand outs. plus if there was peace these thugs would actually have to govern. which they don't want to do. Although to be fair Israel also benefits from aid. My cousin who lives in Israel always said if there were peace what would Israel do with the army? would be hard to find jobs etc for all of them. Ditto Hamas.

The Army is not a "professional Army" like it is in the UK and US. It is not based on voluntarism (unless you are an Israeli Arab of some sort). As such I dont think it's an issue. We all do milluim. That's something all Israelis are used to. It's also important to have the IDF. It is the singular secular intra ethnic leveler and unifier. Nothing but the black hats have anything comparable when it comes to creating parity between Jews coming from all corners of the earth.

[redcake]

The Palestinians aren't the sole reason Israel needs an army. In fact, Israel fought 3-4 wars before Palestinians militarized.

The situation for Palestinians in Gaza is miserable, but that's by design. They all have cell phones, and they're building luxury high end shopping centers and cineplexes across the territories. A surprising amount own washing machines for goodness sakes.

[AlanSilver]

I read a intersting article on Haaretz/Ynet (can't remember which) yesterday saying how in the West Bank they are going through a mini economic boom. Thanks in part to cooperation between the IDF and the local security forces. They are giving people a role in society and a stake in their own futures. I really believe any peace will start from the bottom and work it's way up to the leaders. Not the other way round. I also think Bibi is right when he says a economic peace first. Rather than talking about the same old problems. such as the right of return. which let's be honest is never going to happen.

what is also funny they manage to smuggle in guns, bombs and rockets but don't bother with medicine and food. I wish the Pal people can see they are being taken for a ride.

we can but dream.....

[curlyg]

Dumb argument. Israel would have more time and money to focus on academics and scientific research.

Not a dumb argument at all. Actually he's quite right. Shrinking the size of our army and military budget would be no simply task. Employment, in and of itself, is perhaps not a crucial concern in the long run since we can count on the market to work its magic.

But the IDF is a major consumer in the Israeli economy. A large IDF is clearly beneficial for the Israeli defence industries, but perhaps less intuitively, is also a major consumer of goods/services from the "civilian" sector (so much so that it has been argued that it is one of the causes for keeping the Israeli economy in reasonably good shape despite the economic crisis).

The Palestinians aren't the sole reason Israel needs an army.

I agree.

Even if the Israeli-Palestinian AND Israel-Arab conflicts were resovled I think it is imperative that Israel maintain its large military superiority over all its neighbors. It has some pretty clear benefits, the most obvious being deterrence, but also the social role it plays (the equilizer, a sense of contributing to the country), its use (or rather, the unspoken threat of its use) as a tool in Israeli foreign policy even after a peace deal, and the military's importance to the viability of the Israeli defence industries.

[takeo]

Palestine problem hopeless, but not serious (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KH18Ak01.html)
By Spengler
August 18 2009.


"The situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable," declared United
Sates President Barack Obama in his June 4 Cairo address. Really? Compared to what? Things are tough all over. The Palestinians are one of many groups displaced by the population exchanges that followed World War II, and the only ones whose great-grandchildren still have the legal status of refugees. Why are they still there? The simplest explanation is that they like it there, because they are much better off than people of similar capacities in other Arab countries.

The standard tables of gross domestic product (GDP) per capital show the West Bank and Gaza at US$1,700, just below Egypt's $1,900 and significantly below Syria's $2,250 and Jordan's $3,000. GDP does not include foreign aid, however, which adds roughly 30% to spendable funds in the Palestinian territories. Most important, the denominator of the GDP per capita equation - the number of people - is far lower than official data indicate. According to an authoritative study by the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies [1], the West Bank and Gaza population in 2004 was only 2.5 million, rather than the 3.8 million claimed by the Palestinian authorities. The numbers are inflated to increase foreign aid.

Adjusting for the Begin-Sadat Center population count and adding in foreign aid, GDP per capita in the West Bank and Gaza comes to $3,380, much higher than in Egypt and significantly higher than in Syria or Jordan. Why should any Palestinian refugee resettle in a neighboring Arab country?

.
.
.
Palestinian Arabs are highly literate, richer and healthier than people in most other Arab countries, thanks to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency and the blackmail payments of Western as well as Arab governments. As refugees, they live longer and better than their counterparts in adjacent Arab countries. It is not surprising that they do not want to be absorbed into other Arab countries and cease to be refugees.
.
.
.
Once the problem is diagnosed with this kind of clarity, the solution becomes obvious:
# Cut Western support to the Palestinians with the aim of reducing living standards in the West Bank to those prevailing in Egypt, as an incentive for emigration.
# Demilitarize Palestinian society: offer a reward for turning in weapons, seize them when necessary, and give newly-unemployed gunmen employment weaving baskets at half pay.
,
,
,
Palestine problem hopeless, but not serious (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KH18Ak01.html)
==============

Must Read for everyone.

This is very radical talking, the autor wants to decrease the living standards of palesti nians in order to encourage them to move out, in order to make it Palestinienfree, in which case it can be incorporated in GroB Israel. The purest fascism. But it's not going to work.
What if anyone would suggest that the US cuts support to Israel, in order to bring living standards down and encourage Jews to move from Israel? I think this forum would be too small for all the outcries of indignation. But when Palestinians are concerned, apparently anything goes...

[takeo]

This is what anyone with any common sense has known for years. The Palestinians live much better than Arabs in Arab countries.

Depends which Arab countries. Better than Egyptians that's certainly true. Because of Western aid, that's true as well, without that, living standards would be much lower, since Israel doesn't allow palestinians to have a normal economy without road closures, Israel-only roads, bans or trade with neighbouring countries, etc.. I think that once the Palestinian state is established, aid should be gradually reduced, because in that case they would have the means to have a normal economy.

[takeo]

I read a intersting article on Haaretz/Ynet (can't remember which) yesterday saying how in the West Bank they are going through a mini economic boom. Thanks in part to cooperation between the IDF and the local security forces. They are giving people a role in society and a stake in their own futures. I really believe any peace will start from the bottom and work it's way up to the leaders. Not the other way round. I also think Bibi is right when he says a economic peace first. Rather than talking about the same old problems. such as the right of return. which let's be honest is never going to happen.

what is also funny they manage to smuggle in guns, bombs and rockets but don't bother with medicine and food. I wish the Pal people can see they are being taken for a ride.

we can but dream.....

I went to Ramallah one and a half year ago, and honestly it's not a poor place, comparable to Eastern Jerusalem. (which is a lot poorer than Wewstern Jerusalem). But it's not about poverty, Palestinians want their state and their rights, don't want to live under occupation. This is not unique, you can see equally wealthy places such as the Baltics, Basque country or Northern Ireland where people did fight for their right to be independent. Actually from my experience East Jerusalem Palestinians are more radical than Ramallah residents. We stayed in a guesthouse near Damascus gate and all over were posters "free palestine", "stop Israel" etc. I also noticed that as far as economics are concerned, Jews and palestinians do work together. For example the Jewish taxidiver got a commission from the guesthouse owner to bring us there... also on the basars of East Jerusalem you see orthodox Jews negociating with palestinians about the rate of the US dollar...

[Sanket]

This is very radical talking, the autor wants to decrease the living standards of palesti nians in order to encourage them to move out, in order to make it Palestinienfree, in which case it can be incorporated in GroB Israel. The purest fascism. But it's not going to work.

Hi,

Where did the author say/suggest - "Decrease the living standards of Palestinians" or "Moving Palestine's out" ?

I must have missed that....:scratch:

But he said that Palestinians were earning more money than their neighbors.

What if anyone would suggest that the US cuts support to Israel, in order to bring living standards down and encourage Jews to move from Israel?

If America thinks by supporting Israel they are wasting money then they will cut support to Israel. And if they don't then I will be more surprised than you.

[Mediocrates]

Fair enough then why don't they bother to negotiate. Or are you so patronizing so as to assume that mere Palestinians are incapable of steering their own fate? Kill all Jews, sure sure, that's gonna work, I mean so far so good, right?