World Jewish Congress: We must fight intellectual anti-Semitism

[L@mplighterM]

Oct. 2, 2002
World Jewish Congress: We must fight intellectual anti-Semitism
By TOVAH LAZAROFF

French legislator Pierre Lellouche never imagined that he would have to worry that his children might be subject to anti-Semitic attacks on the street, in school, and in the synagogue.

Speaking Wednesday at the biannual meeting of the World Jewish Congress in Jerusalem, Lellouche, who is a political scientist and a deputy in the French Parliament said that until recently he always saw himself as a Frenchman.

"To the extent I felt Jewish, I wanted this to be a private affair.
"Without knowing it, I was applying to myself the famous motto of the French Republic, every right to the Jew as an individual, but no right as a nation."

But his views have changed in light of increasing anti-Semitism in France and around the world in the last few years. The number of anti-Semitic incidents in France has dropped recently thanks to a more aggressive approach by the French government, Lellouche said. But the threat is still very real.

"We have lost the battle of ideas," he said. People can feel good about being anti-Semitic because Jews are now seen as the aggressors, not the victims. The line between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism has been blurred.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1033392611874

[soral]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
The line between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism has been blurred.

If you believe that such a line existed in the first place

[takeo]

"We have lost the battle of ideas," he said. People can feel good about being anti-Semitic because Jews are now seen as the aggressors, not the victims. The line between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism has been blurred."

Yes, the line between anti-semitism and anti-zionism has been blurred, because of the totally baseless and ridiculous claim by Israel to represent the world Jewish community.
Jews ARE the aggressors in this conflict, that's the whole point. SOME Jews...
Most french Jews feel French citizens, and do not feel that they belong to another nation, being Jewish is the same as having a latin- or irish, or catholic background in the us. That's also how average French consider their Jewish "concitoyens"
We don't feel like apologising for every insanity of sharon and the israeli elite, he's not ours, we didn't vote for him, just a nuts who unfortunately is Jewish.

[Mediocrates]

Yes, the line between anti-semitism and anti-zionism has been blurred, because of the totally baseless and ridiculous claim by Israel to represent the world Jewish community.


I'm not sure that they do. In truth it's people like you who deny that they should have any role at all that make such a big deal about it. To you I imagine a Jewish state is an embarassment, something tawdry and backwards, something so reactionary as to ascribe identity to something so primitive as religion or ethnicity or history. I would imagine that the contrapositive of your statement is something like "No one should represent the world Jewish community because there is no community and it's childish and silly to pretend that one might have any significance." Which for you I suppose is fine to be the Modern Man, without roots, without religion or faith or culture or identity beyond which one can gain from a passport and a voting card. OK that's fine. I'm just wondering who'll you'll hate next? I mean once you've disposed of all us primitives there's got to be another group equally unworthy of adducing the crux of your modern crusade, no?

So who's next, dear heart? The Brits?, The Catholics?, The people next door?

[takeo]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Yes, the line between anti-semitism and anti-zionism has been blurred, because of the totally baseless and ridiculous claim by Israel to represent the world Jewish community.


I'm not sure that they do. In truth it's people like you who deny that they should have any role at all that make such a big deal about it. To you I imagine a Jewish state is an embarassment, something tawdry and backwards, something so reactionary as to ascribe identity to something so primitive as religion or ethnicity or history. I would imagine that the contrapositive of your statement is something like "No one should represent the world Jewish community because there is no community and it's childish and silly to pretend that one might have any significance." Which for you I suppose is fine to be the Modern Man, without roots, without religion or faith or culture or identity beyond which one can gain from a passport and a voting card. OK that's fine. I'm just wondering who'll you'll hate next? I mean once you've disposed of all us primitives there's got to be another group equally unworthy of adducing the crux of your modern crusade, no?

So who's next, dear heart? The Brits?, The Catholics?, The people next door?

What are you talking about? I never said that the Jewish nation should disappear or that the Jewish world-community can't unite.
But it's a fact that Israel is a Jewish state, but that the majority of Jews live OUTSIDE Israel, while many do not have any relation with israel at all, except maybe a historic one of 1000's of years ago. that's very interesting for geneological and archeological point of view, but not of any importance for current politics.
a modern man must have roots, everyone has roots, and this roots should be preserved (without however being a burden that limits modernisation, integration and the devellopment of new intercultural features). But being Jew doesn't mean that you can't be french citizen as well, that you must be religious or that you must support Israel.
In the us you can be proud of your Irish origins without celebrating the ira and move back to ireland, isn't it?

[Mediocrates]

I'm worn out pretending any more patience with this. Save it for someone who's entertained by it.

[Wassaga]

Jews ARE the aggressors in this conflict, that's the whole point
I personally prefer Jews to be aggressors rather than victims.
When Jews were not aggressors they were simply shot down
naked into the pits (women and kids including)

"if the Jew did not exist, the Anti-Semite would invent him." Sartre
Jews were always very handy as scapegoats for everybody.
Now when Jews fight back everybody whines about their cruelty..

The extract from the testimony of Obersturmfuhrer August Hafner :

" I went out to the woods alone .The Wehrmacht had already
dug a grave.The children were brought along in a tractor
[drawn wagon]. I had nothing to do with this technical procedure.
The Ukrainians were standing round trembling.The children were taken down from the tractor .They were lined up along the top of the grave and shot so that they fell into it.The Ukrainians did not aim at any particular part of the body.They fell into the grave.The wailing was undescribable.I shall never forget the scene throughout my life.I find it very hard to bear.I particularly remember a small fair haired girl who took me by the hand.She too was shot later...The grave was near some woods.It was not near the firing range.The execution must have taken place in the afternoon at about three-thirty or four..Many children were hit four of five times before they died. "

How many died like this ? Did anybody care ?

Jews fight ! Be aggressors ! This is way better.
Don't forget what was done to you just several decades ago.

[takeo]

"I personally prefer Jews to be aggressors rather than victims.
When Jews were not aggressors they were simply shot down
naked into the pits (women and kids including)"

"Jews fight ! Be aggressors ! This is way better.
Don't forget what was done to you just several decades ago."

I prefer Jews do be neither victims nor agressors,
Jews shouldn't become as their former aggressors.

[Wassaga]

Some say "eat or be eaten "
Unfortunetly the history proves the validity of these words..

[zephyr]

About anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism: Anti-Semitism has very old, deep roots in Christianity and Islam. Both believe that they superceded Judaism. Judaism may be the parent- but children outlive and surpass the parent in achievement. Christians call the Jewish bible the “old testament” and theirs the “new”. New takes the place of old. Under Islam Jews were tolerated as a religious minority- but they were “dihiminis”- second class citizens who paid special taxes and were tolerated if they didn’t get too uppity. Both religions believe they should have replaced Judaism (and Jews) and resent that despite many efforts to wipe us off the face of the earth we continue to exist. It feels like an affront to their most basic belief systems. Jews remain the perennial “other”, always different, always a cause of suspicion. Refusing to disappear (except for modern day assimilation, but that is another topic) is a real thorn in the side of many Christians and Muslims.

Israel is a further affront because what’s worse than our continued existence- a strong, powerful group of Jews! Israel is far from perfect in any way- but the fact that an independent Jewish state exists in modern times, free to make even it’s own mistakes and have it’s own victories, is more than the world can tolerate. As to why the world attempts to separate anti-Semitism from anti- Zionism- the anti-Semitism is a poison embedded in the collective unconscious of the world. They truly are unaware of it and unwilling to confront it. It bubbles to the surface in the form of anti-Zionism because that is a more PC expression.

As to the American scene, the source of much of the current anti-Israel sentiment is the very dangerously effective co-opting of the language of the left by the Palestinian media.
Portraying Israel as occupiers, oppressors, and victimizers plays well with leftist sympathies. What a brilliant move! Since 1967 the left has increasingly first walked away from Israel and now turned on Israel. Many American Jews who identify as belonging to the left are now included in the anti-Israel camp. As someone who in many ways identifies as leftist when it comes to many issues I am feeling abandoned and alienated. More importantly, I worry about the loss of American Jews identification with or relationship to Israel. And, of course the overall effect of huge blocks of the American public being anti-Israel.

[Mediocrates]

Michael Beschloss on FDR and the Holocaust:

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=5998716&BRD=1425&PAG=461&dept_id=154733&rfi=6

Beschloss has served as a historian at the Smithsonian Institution (1982-1986), a visiting fellow at Oxford (1986-1988) and a fellow at the Annenberg Foundation (1988-1996). He is the author of seven books. His latest will be published this month by Simon & Schuster. He is a trustee of the Thomas Jefferson Foundation (Monticello), the National Archives Foundation and the White House Historical Association.

The Chronicle submitted the following questions to Beschloss, who responded via e-mail:

Q: Although most Jews are Democrats, more and more information is coming out that FDR knew about, and did nothing to stop the Holocaust. How should that be viewed today? Are we forgetting the tough circumstances he was under at the time? How does it affect his legacy today?

A: Most people these days don't choose party affiliation based on history. If they did, most African-Americans today would probably be Republicans in honor of Lincoln. As I say in my book, Jews voted for FDR in 1932 by a majority of 80 percent and in his next three elections by 90 percent. They did this largely because they shared his social beliefs and welcomed the fact that he did more than any other President in history to welcome Jews into the mainstream of American life. They also appreciated that he was the President who demanded that Americans go to war to remove the scourge of Hitler from the world, which ultimately saved the lives of two-thirds of the world's Jews - people who otherwise would have been murdered.

At the same time, oddly enough, I think the vast Jewish support for FDR may have kept him from doing more to stop the Holocaust. Roosevelt was a deeply political man, and knowing that Jews were politically in his hip pocket may have caused him to feel that he did not have to work as hard to keep Jewish voters happy as he did with other swing groups.

Through 1942 and 1943, FDR knowingly allowed anti-Semites in the State Department to block the entrance of doomed Jewish refugees. Only when his Treasury Secretary, Henry Morgenthau Jr., warned him in January 1944 that this was about to bust into a public political scandal that could embarrass him and damage his chances for reelection in 1994 did the President crack down on the State Department.

I think Roosevelt was constrained by two other things. He was intimidated by the disgraceful and large impact of anti-Semitism on American life during World War II. As I reveal in my book, he once privately told Joseph Kennedy that if a demagogue like Huey Long took up anti-Semitism, he thought there would be "more blood flowing through the streets of New York than in Berlin." There was also an ugly tendency in Roosevelt to think that if a Jew or a leader of another non-WASP ethnic group advocated a foreign policy goal that would help their people - especially in wartime - it was somehow unpatriotic. After Pearl Harbor, he told his close friend Morgenthau and Leo Crowley, a Catholic official, that America was a "Protestant country" and that the Jews and Catholics were here "under sufferance" - and that therefore they should go along with everything he wanted. Justifiably, Morgenthau went back to his office, pounded his forehead and asked why he was working so hard in his job if America was not for him.

Historically I think the most important thing to know about FDR was that he had the courage and skill to lead us to the defeat of Hitler. But at the same time, we must always remember his performance on the Holocaust, the most monumental crime in human history. While saving two-thirds of the world's Jews, he was too little interested until late in the war in doing everything possible to save those who might be saved - and in 1944, he never gave due attention to the possibility that bombing Auschwitz or other death camps might save more lives than it would cost.

Q: How does the policy of rescue through victory look 50 years later? It is fair to say that FDR might have/should have done more to stop the Holocaust?

A: If Roosevelt rigidly adhered throughout the war to his doctrine that military resources should be used only in a way that would win the war as fast as possible, his reluctance on refugees and the possibility of bombing Auschwitz would be more defensible. But there are numerous instances in which strategy and tactics were changed for other reasons - to save the treasures of Kyoto, for example. Furthermore, it is difficult to argue that slightly diverting U.S. bombers to bomb Auschwitz or the rail lines that fed it - or do more to help the refugees - would have seriously delayed the winning of the war. And what if the war has lasted so long that all the world's Jews had been murdered before victory? Should his doctrine have prevailed then too?

Q: You said that Roosevelt's demand for Germany's unconditional surrender lengthened the war. How might it have ended without unconditional surrender? Would any other approach have led to the Nazis staying in power? What lessons does the policy of unconditional surrender have for our current conflicts?

A: I hugely admire FDR's insistence that the war against Hitler be fought until we won unconditional surrender from the Nazis. More than anyone else in his government, having learned from World War I and its outcome, he understood that the only way the scourge of Nazism could be removed from German society would be if the Germans were absolutely conquered and that in their wake, we build a lasting democracy in Germany. I think it did lengthen the war because it made the Germans fight harder to avoid absolute defeat. But without it, Stalin might have been tempted to make a separate peace with Hitler or some successor junta - and today we might well still have a Germany, led by some new Hitler, that we would have to defeat. President Bush may have to make a similar choice if we go to war against Iraq.

Q: Do you think our current president, in the War on Terrorism, has a more difficult task because of the nature of the enemy?

A: The war against terrorism is in certain ways more complex than the war against Hitler because we are not fighting against a definable regime and armies that we can see. Unlike FDR after Pearl Harbor, President Bush after Sept. 11 had to quickly improvise a way to deal with a threat that few Americans had been thinking about. But no one should underestimate FDR's achievement in leading us to victory in World War II. Had some lesser figure been President, there is a good chance we would have lost that war and be living in a very different country today. And some Americans might not be alive at all.

©Kansas City Jewish Chronicle 2002


The lesson to be learned is we can NEVER afford to cozy up to any administration so closely we are taken for granted.

[zephyr]

Thank you for a good article. American anti-semitism has a long history and certainly affected how we fought in WWII in Europe and the baring of refugees from America. It has had many ramifications throughout the history of America- but i don't want to give a history lesson. Protestants have problems with Jews, and even the Catholics, who themselves were not always easily accepted, certainly brought their anti-semetic history here. Growing up in an American Catholic neighborhood 60s before Vatican II and even after, was not easy. The history of the Church and anti-semitism is a whole different thread and moves on to the proclimations of todays pope. Your article was a nice connection of the political and religious. thanks.

[Leon Uris]

Wassaga: I complete agree with you. One cannot even reason with entities as treacherous as the Nazis or Islam.

As they say in the West, "You try reasoning with a rattlesnake, you wind up dead." Islam is, and has been for several years, humankinds worst nightmare. A danger of biblical proportions. The sooner the rest of the world realizes this and devises effective ways to combat it the better.

I sense that this realization has dawned upon the average Jew. I only wish that it would dawn upon my fellow hindus and Indians.

[zephyr]

Much of what modern Islam has come to be is indeed a threat to the Western world. Europe is full of Arabs who are Muslim. They have high birth rates and are, in large part, not integrated into mainstream society. Europeans are intimidated by them. They fear angering them as they represent a fifth column danger. Ironically, their anti-Semitism resonates well with many Europeans- as Tom Lehrer would say- "and everyone hates the Jews". On the other hand many Europeans are struggling with how to handle anti-immigrant sentiment, as there is resentment at the huge presence of very different foreigners in their countries. However, i wonder if we are witnessing a fundamental (pun not intended) shift in the in the nature of European society. Will the strong Arab/Muslim presence continue to grow; will they become a more vocal/powerful presence? I wonder if this is also true elsewhere in the world. Look at the conflicts between Hindus and Muslims.
Here in the US it is very not PC to say anything critical of Islam. When we are attacked the left beats their chest and says "what have we done to bring this upon ourselves" and concludes it is our support of Israel that has brought such hatred upon us. Is Islam is so benevolent than where are the voices of "mainstream Islam" speaking up against the "extremists"? I do not think American Jews have realized this- nor has the general public.
Islam is emerging as a major world force. Its influence is being felt as it has not in a long time. Are we seeing the dawning of a new era of Islam that will be quite different than last time Islam held sway over much of the world? Are we on the verge of a new era?
Lest i sound hateful, let me clarify; I am all for fostering cooperation, appreciating differerent cultures, Arab- Jewish peace efforts on small scale community levels. but reality has to be part of the picture too.

[judicial meanz]

Ironically, their anti-Semitism resonates well with many Europeans- as Tom Lehrer would say- "and everyone hates the Jews". On the other hand many Europeans are struggling with how to handle anti-immigrant sentiment, as there is resentment at the huge presence of very different foreigners in their countries. However, i wonder if we are witnessing a fundamental (pun not intended) shift in the in the nature of European society. Will the strong Arab/Muslim presence continue to grow; will they become a more vocal/powerful presence?




Anti-semitism is usually the central rallying point of totalitarian movements. Hitler,Stalin and other tyrant wannabees use it to the hilt.It comes as no surprise that the Arab/Muslims want to exploit it as well.

Hannah Arendt was right on the mark when she wrote her book in 1948 on anti-semitism.

[Kolyahu]

The Hebrew word for night is' LYL'. I don't have the font on hand, but if you write the word 'LYL' in Hebrew (Lamed, Yod,Lamed) on a piece of paper, I'll instruct you on a strange coincidence. The letter Yod = Y, or the number 10. It symbolizes the 10 commandments, and thereby the ruach Hakodesh (Holy spirit).
When some one disregards those commandments, the Yod is taken out of that persons life with G-d. Erase the Yod you have written. when G-d looks away from a person because they stop listening to His voice, their actions cause them to view life in an upside down fashion. turn the paper upside down and post me with your findings. I am a child of the Light. B"H and Shalom alechem to one and all.

[phgnome]

Instead of the 10 reference to the 10 commandments, the scripts could be referring to something far more universal.

The other thing that 10 is closely related to is the element carbon. Because all living things are carbon-based and a carbon atom has 10 electrons, and because the belief is that the deity created all living things -- it would be more logical to associate the letters simply with the force that created the universe rather than the entity that gave us the 10 commandments.

[Batman]

takeo:
Jews ARE the aggressors in this conflict, that's the whole point. SOME Jews...


what are you talking about? do you actually have any facts to base this on?

Jews are still, unfortunately the victim here, aggressed by all these Arab nations who want them out of the Middle East. Why else would there be the continuity of Jew hatred from the pro-Nazi Grand Mufti of Jerusalem to
the present. How many Jews presently live in Arab countries and for that matter how many Christians? Notice that even Christians are being forced out.

SEE: WHO ARE THE PALESTINIAN THREAD FOR SOME LIGHT ON SUBJECT
__________________________________________________ __"Stop being afraid. There is no danger that these guns will be used against us. The purpose of this ammunition for the Palestinian police is to be used in their vigilant fight against the Hamas. They won't dream of using it against us, since they know very well that if they use these guns against us once, at that moment the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will return to all the places that have been given to them. The Oslo Accord, despite what the opposition claims, is not irrevocable."
-Yitzchak Rabin

[Kolyahu]

Y'all were pretty close to what I was getting at. If you Take the 10 Commandments out of the Lesser Light, it gets twisted upside down. Turning the writing upside down turns 2 Hebrew L's into:
SS, the symbol of arrogance, racial pride and ignorance.
When facing all other empires, our people stayed together by remembering that their deities were mere men. They worshipped godz, that weren't real. Not one of their godz ever raised the dead to life. Any who pray to anything other than the mighty one of Life, they too shall be swallowed up by the weapon called LEVI-ATEN.
Some one thought I was a christian on the forum once, when I started writing in this style on that subject. I must sound like a baptist. I m Neither Xian, nor Jewish, I ain't gotta label I ain't like a can o'beandip that you can take down off the shelf. I'm a In-Yo-Face kinda guy! I am 100% convinced that YAHWEH Elohim is The G-d of Life and of Light.
He & His Word are one. When you carry the Torah You're carrying His Only Begotten Son in your arms. For you Muslims and Chr-stians, your Jesus was speaking as IF he were the Torah. Keep this in mind the next time you read the gospel of John. Only the Torah can say those things about itself. Because Yahweh is Not a man. If you find that this IS the Truth, remember it is why they did not accept him. He was not saying that he as a man were G-d. that was what he was accused of.
The Church of Rome was the mother that bore Islam, not Judaism.
The Romans had & still have the most to loose, THEY killed the man and blame it on others. They claim to represent the man, yet
teach the people lies, teaching that the supposedly false accusations against the man were true, by their own scriptures.
I do not hate anybody, I hate what each of us does sometimes.
If the Council of Nicaea 321-325 ce would have deified the words of the Nazarene, there would've been Paradise on earth by the year 350. Instead, they go backwards and again they deify a mere man, so they can hold on to their excuses and their power and their lies. Shalom alechem

[Batman]

Originally posted by Kolyahu
Turning the writing upside down turns 2 Hebrew L's into:
SS, the symbol of arrogance, racial pride and ignorance............
The Church of Rome was the mother that bore Islam, not Judaism.


I appreciate your good intentions on behalf of the Torah but the above 2 statements are incorrect.

When you use the Hebrew letters and then turn them upside down the SS you mention is not any more clear than if you didn't turn them upside down. Sind the letter Lamed is constracted with two diagonal lines with a connecting line which is parallel to the bottom of the page the SS you mention can be viewed without turning the letters upside down. HOWEVER, to conclude a conclusion about Hebrew letters by viewing them through the English letters is as accurate as Astrology in any daily paper.

Sorry. It's not an accurate way to deal with the study of Hebrew letters to which a great deal of meticulous study was dedicated by the Hebrew scholars who diligently lost sleep and sacrificed their lives and comfort for many years to truly be deservent of being called Kabbalists who can say how a letter speaks to us.

Additionally, your second comment is not accurate. Islam came about when Mohammad imagined himself to be the savior of both the Jews and the Christians and thought he is the last prophet. Once he was rejected by both Jews and Christians he then turned against both and thus emerged a separate religion called Islam which considers anyone who does not believe Mohammad is the last true prophet an 'infidel.'
__________________________________________________ __"Stop being afraid. There is no danger that these guns will be used against us. The purpose of this ammunition for the Palestinian police is to be used in their vigilant fight against the Hamas. They won't dream of using it against us, since they know very well that if they use these guns against us once, at that moment the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will return to all the places that have been given to them. The Oslo Accord, despite what the opposition claims, is not irrevocable."
-Yitzchak Rabin

[Kolyahu]

I am not trying to belittle anyones' understandings of things but there are historical facts known within certain groups that the public does not know. The inner circle of the vatican is one such group. There were plots within plots to bring pressure on the Eastern Roman Empire, so that they would capitulate to Roman Authority.
That's one they lost their strings on. However you wish to look at Islam; if it weren't for the Church's influence on the area, there would not have been the religious aspect to these problems, that is certainly not an arguable fact of history.
But this, even this will be smoothed out and fairly soon. (I have trained under rabbis, and other types of teachers.) If I had a good font I would be glad to show a more respectful presentation, my apologies. I am a certified sheepskin carryin' PhD from the school of hard knocks, after hitchhiking all over the place I can truly say I am a bonafide Roads Scholar. I is what I is cause He made me this way. I came to this forum to see what the world is thinking about as far as peace. We are at war, unfortunately, you are not sure who the enemy is. It is an '--ISM'
like all other '--ISMs', Man gave them Life. They can keep their '--ISMS' I want my Life back, they can't have it anymore. And finally,I want Israel to become One with HaShem, as it was supposed to be. If you wish to teach Torah,BE Torah! .....in love I say this......I am.

[Batman]

Originally posted by Kolyahu
I came to this forum to see what the world is thinking about as far as peace. We are at war, unfortunately, you are not sure who the enemy is. It is an '--ISM'
like all other '--ISMs', Man gave them Life. They can keep their '--ISMS' I want my Life back, they can't have it anymore. And finally,I want Israel to become One with HaShem, as it was supposed to be. If you wish to teach Torah,BE Torah! .....in love I say this......I am.

As far as peace, i assume you already know the old Hebrew adage:
Without Justice there is no peace

Anti-semitism is inexcusable, whether Jews are more observant of Torah laws or not. The Jew is permitted his process of growth and recovery from centuries of abuse at the hands of other nations, and for that the Jew needs a homeland that is safe.

The idea of being one with Hashem through the strict adherence to the Law of Torah is great and would consititute the Jew in his perfect state. But if you look at Jewish history with the incredible persecutions and unceasing blood shed throughout the centuries and think of it realistically, it is a wonder that Jews are still Jewish and still holding on to their identity and love of Torah and the Land of Israel! Jews are still One with Hashem, even if they are a little tired and do not keep every mitzva yet!
__________________________________________________ __"Stop being afraid. There is no danger that these guns will be used against us. The purpose of this ammunition for the Palestinian police is to be used in their vigilant fight against the Hamas. They won't dream of using it against us, since they know very well that if they use these guns against us once, at that moment the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will return to all the places that have been given to them. The Oslo Accord, despite what the opposition claims, is not irrevocable."
-Yitzchak Rabin

[Kolyahu]

Oy Vey! Bet Yehudi HaKedoshim. Yes, yes But you 4get the Mitzvoh of War. It is not just a spiritual thing it is also about the times of war as well. I'm sorry I can't be overtly blatant over unsecure lines,10-4? Hard, hard decisions have to be made. no one likes that. Do you think HaLeviim v'Kohenim liked the killing of innocent animals? Somewhere in the tanakh it says,"..I shall exchange the lives of men for you (Israel)" I think that's in Yeshayahu (Isaiah) my memry fails me now'n'then. Then Melek Shlomo in Koheles, "...a time for peace and a time for war."

I have a question 4 you. Did you notice the flag of the US and the flag of Israel standing side-by-side as one, at the front door of the little house in Miami,FL when the boy Elian was there? Do you remember seeing him standing between them and waving at the whole world on satellite TV? (Read: Yetzekiel 37, Dan.12:1). And notice I did not say anything about Moshiach this time. The US & Israel are at war with their fantical muslim enemies, where are the other so called allies of Israel? You don't think there may be something more to those old dusty dreams they had? So okay?

[Batman]

Kolyahu
I am not sure i follow your last post, but on the whole i think we have the same view that Israel must powerfully defend itself at this time and not be weakened by the emotional/mental and physical pressures,

the info about the animal sacrifices are as with the rest of your understanding and this has nothing to do with the Vatican and clans of secrecy but with the diligent study that allows the meaningful participation in understanding the spirit in which the Law of Torah is to be understood.

No secrecy at all. Anyone who is a Jew or wants to convert and spends many years in the study and full orthodox practice of the Torah may be blessed by Hashem to understand the lights of creation and thereby the full meaning and beauty of the mitzvot.

Until someone has made a huge effort for this end, one is only on the road (a road scholar) and needs a lot of humility not to assume understanding of the level one may achieve after many many very in-depth and dedicated studies and meditations. And also studying itself has its own rules and study must be done with much love and humility. And even that is no guaranttee of reaching the great hights of wisdom required to interpret.

However, one can also be happy and kind and serve Hashem with joy. That is the Chassic solution and it is available to all.

[Kolyahu]

I agree . You are correct. I am not even an amatuer in comparison to the sages, the rabbis. I am a babe in comparison. I am a vagabond a misfit, a.... an ex-con, an ex-jarhead. I'm trying to say 2 things at once like a dumby.
1) Mitzvah of War = "...and when you go into battle in the land that I have sworn to your forefathers, you shall (positive Mitzvah)
Not take pity..you shall(positive again) destroy their idols and cast down their images, You shall Not (negative ) make a treaty with them.. or their godz will be a snare....Etc.
2) There is another level to Torah Life, one which no one has seen and no one has ever glimpsed, it has to do with something called,"The Bird's nest". The Torah is no secret. I agree but HaShem reveals what He reveals to whomever He Wills. I am NOT worthy, yet I partook of the Bread of Affliction. I did so to find out why they preached love, yet hated the Jewish people and the Laws of HaShem. I am only a servant, but I do know whom I serve. He revealed the whereabouts of the Whole House of Israel to me, a nobody, a convicted felon at that. When I say The Whole House, I mean All of the descendants of Bet Yisroayl. I know where they are, even though they don't. The text, is the word and the sword and the messiah, HaShem made it perfectly. There is nothing left out of it. [ Elian is Jewish!That's why all the fuss. I could scream it out but no one would pay any attention except maybe the misfits of this world,like myself.]
In the spirit of Yahoshua ben Nun, We can take 'em all on at once with Hashem we have already won.

Bet Yehudi= House of Judah=State of Israel
Bet Efraim= House of Efraim=The United States
Amer = Word (aleph,mem,resh)
Yichahah= A gathering to obey (yod,cheth,he',he')
America= Amer+ yichahah= A gathering to obey The Word
See; HaAzinu vs. 7-11; Isaiah 18, 27:1 ;Ezekiel 37;
They aren't my words, but for some reason I was given the inspiration to see the reality of them in modern day terms.
Shalom alechem Batman
(argueable yes, but a very interesting presumption.)

[Batman]

enjoy your inspiration, why not?
your insights may be inspired....Hashem is all inspiring!

[phgnome]

Originally posted by Kolyahu

There is another level to Torah Life, one which no one has seen and no one has ever glimpsed, it has to do with something called,"The Bird's nest". The Torah is no secret. I agree but HaShem reveals what He reveals to whomever He Wills.

What's "The Bird's nest", Kolyahu?