Why does Israel not reconize Arab villages? [Archive]

View Full Version : Why does Israel not reconize Arab villages?

I am David

10-05-2002, 09:37 AM

Why does Israel not reconize some Arab villages? I am ignorant on this subject, but why does Israel not give basic services such as health, water, schools, etc to Arab villages that have always been there?

link: http://www.gal-soc.org/negevbackground.html

Miriam

10-05-2002, 10:44 AM

What does "Home of the Hebrews" in your "location" mean? If it is Israel, why do you pose such a typical "outsider" question? If not, what is the game about?

I am David

10-05-2002, 10:46 AM

I don't see how this relates to the topic, but I'm with Israel, but curious as to why it does this.

I am David

10-05-2002, 10:54 AM

By the way, if it's such an "outsider" question, then you must know the answer, right? Well please divulge it then, as that is what I asked for. Thanks.

I am David

10-08-2002, 08:54 PM

I suppose no one has an answer? Perhaps Israel is completely wrong on this one?

However, are there in fact Israeli settlements in Israel that are not reconized or are prevented from being built? This would almost make what Israel is doing in this case ok.

Philip

10-09-2002, 04:55 AM

Well, I think we all know the answer. Interesting that new colonies in the Occupied Territories -- colonies with Jewish populations -- are connected to water and electricity as soon as possible, apparently even when they are constructed against the wishes of the Israeli government.

And still so many deny that discrimination exists in Israel.

minusthejihad

10-09-2002, 07:37 AM

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1034014714990

"Some 80,000 Palestinian residents from the town of Tubas and 21 surrounding villages will be hooked up to the nation's electricity grid Wednesday morning, marking the first time that an entire region is hooked up to electricity, rather than individual towns and villages, Israel Electric and Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories Amos Gilead said Tuesday in a joint statement.

According to the state-owned energy monopoly and military authorities, the Palestinian Authority paid NIS 2.5 million for the construction of the new line from the Jordan Valley. Israel Electric officials said the project's success stemmed from the energy concern and close coordination between Gilead and Palestinian officials in the area.

Workers recently completed the construction of electricity infrastructure in each village and a main electricity supply room near the village of Taisir for $300,000.

Throughout the construction process, workers were accompanied by officials from the District Coordinating Office in Jenin to ensure that the work was carried out in a proper and swift manner.

The national electricity company had in the past called on the government to secure payment from the PA for electricity bills unpaid by individual towns and villages."

So, what exactly was the question here?

I am David

10-09-2002, 07:40 AM

Um, they still are not reconized villages, not given proper education or health funding, none of the government infrastructure reconized Jewish settlements get.

danholo

10-09-2002, 07:51 AM

Good to know. Now somebody has to do something about it!

Miriam

10-09-2002, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by danholo
Good to know. Now somebody has to do something about it! Well, since "I am David" apparently lives in the "Home of the Hebrews", here you have your candidate :)

I am David

10-09-2002, 09:38 AM

So you accept the fact that Israel blatently and openly discrimates against Arabs in such a fundemental way?

Mediocrates

10-09-2002, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by I am David
Um, they still are not reconized villages, not given proper education or health funding, none of the government infrastructure reconized Jewish settlements get.

Tell me where else squatters get what you describe?

Mediocrates

10-09-2002, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Philip
Well, I think we all know the answer. Interesting that new colonies in the Occupied Territories -- colonies with Jewish populations -- are connected to water and electricity as soon as possible, apparently even when they are constructed against the wishes of the Israeli government.

And still so many deny that discrimination exists in Israel.

Well you claim to. Did the Klavern end early today?

Mediocrates

10-09-2002, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by I am David
So you accept the fact that Israel blatently and openly discrimates against Arabs in such a fundemental way?

Does that actually mean anything or have any content? Yeah I deny it. Make a move.

Mediocrates

10-09-2002, 10:36 AM

danholo

10-09-2002, 11:08 AM

Oh, they were Bedouin. This makes a difference. Most Bedouin stick to their tradition and like to live in their desert dwellings/huts. You see them all over, when driving around Israel. They live in small shacks that can be dismantled easily for future transport to another location. Their custom is to roam the desert. They are shepherds and still stick to that way of life.

Should the Israeli government provide every small Bedouin community, that are small in size (several families at most), medical facilities, grocery shops and a school?
The Bedouins do not want to live in "government planned-towns".
It's the least that Israel can offer. I mean, Bedouins do not do anything for the government. Israel has offered them even better conditions then they live in now. What? Should Israel give the best quality of housing for people, who would not pay for it anyway?

Mediocrates

10-09-2002, 11:14 AM

You build don't hospitals in the middle of nowhere, you don't build an 8 lane highway through the jungle. Use your head man. Stop thinking that everything is some nefarious plot against you personally.

I am David

10-09-2002, 12:18 PM

Excuse me, but if I'm not mistaken, Jewish settlements who start up in areas where "you wouldn't put a hospital and school" get it anyway, albiet for the size of the settlement. (I'm talkin settlements in Israel, not WB/Gaza/Golan), whereas equivilent Arab villages don't.

NewsGuy

10-09-2002, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by I am David
Excuse me, but if I'm not mistaken, Jewish settlements who start up in areas where "you wouldn't put a hospital and school" get it anyway, albiet for the size of the settlement. (I'm talkin settlements in Israel, not WB/Gaza/Golan), whereas equivilent Arab villages don't.

Of course it makes perfect sense that Jewish suburbs should get resources from the Jewish state. If the Arab nomads want better municipal services, they are more than welcome to wander into one of the 22 Arab neighboring countries and claim anything their heart desires.

I don't know why it's so hard for many people to understand, that, under international law, Israel is a Jewish state. It is not a repository for Arab nomadic tribes and there is no discrimination in adhering to international law.

Tell me, which municipal services exactly are to be made available for Jews who would decide to settle in any Arab country? How much electricity and fresh water would be made available to a Jewish community wishing to live in Mecca, for example? How about in Gaza or in Ramallah? What are they giving the Jews there?

Mediocrates

10-09-2002, 01:08 PM

cerulean

10-09-2002, 01:22 PM

Israel has done a great deal to assist the Bedouins. I have read articles about it in Haaretz (no time to chase down the links now, though).

It is a challenge to deal with a mobile population, and no doubt expensive also, but there are government programs in place to help provide assistance like prenatal care. I suspect you would find the Bedouins living in Israel do better on most indexes than Bedouins in Arab countries in general.

I am David

10-09-2002, 02:39 PM

The point is that if a Jewish community decided to set up a settlement as isolated as Arab bedouins, THEY would get what the Arab bedouins do not, health, education, electricity, police, etc.

Mediocrates

10-09-2002, 03:00 PM

The wildest flights of spite. Rubbish.

richcrassus

10-09-2002, 03:32 PM

If say its true and israel herds all the phillistines in the WB into jordan, what will the jordanian army do?
Will they just let it be bullied by the israeli army pushing more palestinians into it?
So if it works, will this guarantee eternal peace for israel?
What will happen to the israeli arabs? will they get kicked out as well? What if they start an uprising? Will israel ever be 100% jewish with no palestinians?

Mediocrates

10-09-2002, 03:54 PM

but that's going to happen - what make you think it will

I am David

10-09-2002, 06:45 PM

So how many Jewish settlements don't get basic infrastructure as opposed to Bedoin villages?

NewsGuy

10-09-2002, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by I am David
So how many Jewish settlements don't get basic infrastructure as opposed to Bedoin villages?

Again, Israel is not for Bedouin nomadic tribes. It is the homeland of the Jewish people and a Jewish state under international law.

That's why Jewish suburbs receive municipal services while Bedouin park-and-rests do not.

I am David

10-09-2002, 08:29 PM

Israel is a DEMOCRACY! Yes it is a place for all Jews but to DISCRIMINATE against other people, and deny them basic services just because their bedoin while treating otherwise equal Jews better?

NewsGuy

10-09-2002, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by I am David
Israel is a DEMOCRACY! Yes it is a place for all Jews but to DISCRIMINATE against other people, and deny them basic services just because their bedoin while treating otherwise equal Jews better?

Yes, Israel is a democracy.

So, please vote with your own money and feel free to travel to the Bedouin encampments to deliver some basic services.

And at the same time, the Bedouin nomadic tribes can vote with their legs by going to any one of their 22 Arab neighboring countries or to Gaza where they can feel more comfortable with the level of municipal services they will receive.

That's true democracy: Everyone gets to vote as they please. You with your own money and they with their own legs.

I am David

10-09-2002, 08:46 PM

But then why should Jewish settlement get to have all these services and what not in the middle of no where, while the Bedoin do not? That is blatent discrimination==not a democracy.

Philip

10-10-2002, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Well you claim to. Did the Klavern end early today?

You've become a caricature of yourself, my Brotherman.

Philip

10-10-2002, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by I am David
But then why should Jewish settlement get to have all these services and what not in the middle of no where, while the Bedoin do not? That is blatent discrimination==not a democracy.

Democracy is merely rule by the majority, and it does not directly imply equal protection under the law for all citizens. The civilized nations of the world incorporate equality under the law in their government practices along with democracy, but it is in no way inherent to democracy.

I don't think Israel can really be said to be a democracy, either. Yes, all citizens have the right to vote, but there are and have been some two million "subjects" of the Israeli government who have no right to vote, namely the non-Jewish residents of the Occupied Territories -- Jewish settlers in the Occupied Territories do have the right to vote in Israeli elections. The Soviet Union could similarly have claimed to have been a democracy if it just designated as its "state" whatever small area of Moscow most of the Politburo members lived in, and called the rest of its geography "territories," where residents were subject to its rule but not citizens.

danholo

10-10-2002, 03:54 AM

Originally posted by I am David
The point is that if a Jewish community decided to set up a settlement as isolated as Arab bedouins, THEY would get what the Arab bedouins do not, health, education, electricity, police, etc.

Usually Settlements are small towns. If they are caravan type, they do not have anything. Probably a school provided by themselves etc. The Bedouin live in shacks. They move around. Should every Bedoiun family receive their own mobile hospital, mobile school and mobile grocery store?

minusthejihad

10-10-2002, 06:39 AM

Originally posted by I am David
But then why should Jewish settlement get to have all these services and what not in the middle of no where, while the Bedoin do not? That is blatent discrimination==not a democracy.

I really don't see the point of coming on a forum and "discussing or debating" a point that you have already made judgement on.

Here's a new one:

I'm not married, so I'll be the first one laid-off at my job, instead of a married person. That's discrimination.

Now try to argue that. No, No, you're wrong. Its discrimination.

Mediocrates

10-10-2002, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by Philip

You've become a caricature of yourself, my Brotherman.

You have torn off the mask of credibility you used to wear and you trot out the same old tired antisemitic "protocols" nonsense. You don't even pretend to cover it up any more. There is little difference between you and David Duke.

Mediocrates

10-10-2002, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by Philip
The Soviet Union could similarly have claimed to have been a democracy if it just designated as its "state" whatever small area of Moscow most of the Politburo members lived in, and called the rest of its geography "territories," where residents were subject to its rule but not citizens.

Your model state does not exist. So in practical terms you're debating philosophy and allegory and no actual fact.

takeo

10-10-2002, 05:11 PM

"I'm not married, so I'll be the first one laid-off at my job, instead of a married person. That's discrimination.
"

You didn't get laid-off and lost your right to vote because you're Jewish, THAT would be discrimination comparable to the kind of discrimination Palestinians have to face in Israel

I am David

10-10-2002, 05:34 PM

No one has answered my question, why do Jewish settlements get services while Arab ones do not?

danholo

10-11-2002, 03:30 AM

Originally posted by I am David
No one has answered my question, why do Jewish settlements get services while Arab ones do not?

Who said that? Arab villages do get services! Jewish settlements are usually small towns, that naturally have services anyway.

It is the Bedouin who do not get services. Why? Because they wander around. They do not live in towns and they don't want to!Should every Bedouin community (one or several families) get their own mobile hospital, grocery store, school and electricity?

It is impossible. Here, in Finland, some people live in the north in very secluded areas. Some have to travel 100 km in the morning to school! Should they get their own private school right next to their house, and a hospital for that matter?!

Philip

10-11-2002, 05:58 AM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
You have torn off the mask of credibility you used to wear and you trot out the same old tired antisemitic "protocols" nonsense. You don't even pretend to cover it up any more. There is little difference between you and David Duke.

Feh! Danholo made the claim that "Jewish values" precluded discrimination in Israel, and I followed up on a source that showed that, if anything, "Jewish values," at least in the traditional sense, almost mandate discrimination. My source was a Jewish Israeli, not a fraudulent document of Russian antisemites, as you imply, and I have found that most of his claims about "Jewish values" are accurate, your cartoonish criticisms notwithstanding. And by the way, a month ago I didn't know Israel Shahak from Adam, and I would have accepted that "Jewish values" would oppose the shameful behavior of Israel.

Philip

10-11-2002, 06:04 AM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Your model state does not exist. So in practical terms you're debating philosophy and allegory and no actual fact.

Here's what we do know: Israel feels that it has every right to control every aspect of life in the Occupied Territories, but that it has absolutely no obligation to answer to the collective will (as through participation in elections) of the Palestinian population of those territories, though it does -- in blatant discrimination -- recognize the right to vote of the Jewish population of the territories. These are actual, undeniable facts, shameful though they are.

Debate that.

NewsGuy

10-11-2002, 06:08 AM

Originally posted by I am David
No one has answered my question, why do Jewish settlements get services while Arab ones do not?

I think I answered you about three times already. Try using the scroll bar on your browser to scroll upwards to read the thread again.

I am David

10-11-2002, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by NewsGuy

I think I answered you about three times already. Try using the scroll bar on your browser to scroll upwards to read the thread again.

No, not to point where it explains why Jewish settlements of equal number of people get servies while bedoin do not.

Mediocrates

10-11-2002, 08:32 AM

oh he did - clearly the answer you're looking for is 'cause we're all evil'.

Sorry.

I am David

10-11-2002, 10:51 AM

Seriously, I would like an explanation.

Why does Israeli settlements in Israel get services and infrastructure when bedouin villages of equal size do not?

Thank you.

Mediocrates

10-11-2002, 10:54 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Philip

Here's what we do know:

Asked and answered.

There is one thing I know. There is no such thing as an undeniable fact.

Mediocrates

10-11-2002, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by Philip
My source was a Jewish Israeli, not a fraudulent document of Russian antisemites, as you imply, and I have found that most of his claims

Today a sniper claimed their 7th victim in Virginia. All dogs have tails. We are all snipers. We all share those values. We are all the same.

debate that.

Mediocrates

10-11-2002, 10:57 AM

since you are asking the question again and again please demonstrate what you are talking about.

Philip

10-11-2002, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates There is one thing I know. There is no such thing as an undeniable fact. [/B]

... but there is such a thing as being in denial. Have you absolutely no shame, Mediocrates? Or is it that you have no sense?

takeo

10-11-2002, 06:43 PM

Iamdavid, I think indeed that newsguy answered your question!!!
As in nazi-Germany and other fascist countries such as Turkey and Iraq, Israel is a state where etnic minorities get discriminated, newsguy is perfectly right.

NewsGuy

10-11-2002, 07:36 PM

takeo interpreting what I say is like a communist from 100 years ago trying to figure out New Keynesian Economics. Not a very good chance of success.

Living one's existence in the shadow of Communism's collapse, naturally can bring about all kinds of bizarre views, detached from any reality or understanding of current events, and I think that is exactly what we are seeing in takeo's last post. For example, any country that rejects radical communism is automatically, in takeo's view "fascist" and Nazi-like.

But most other people who live in Western civilization understand a few simple facts:

1. Israel is a democracy and it was set up by UN Resolution 181 to be a Jewish state.

2. For those who do not understand what a Jewish State means, let me explain in very simple terms: A "Jewish State" means it is a country populated by Jewish people in accordance with the wishes of the Jewish people. Of course, it is open to non-Jews, including the enormous mass of 20% of Israeli citizens who happen to be Arabs, but Israel is a Jewish state under international law.

Notice that it was not Ariel Sharon who created that law, nor was it even the people of Israel who passed that law -- it was the United Nations which created that law by a democratic majority vote expressing the will of the nations of the world. That's who decided that Israel is a Jewish state: The world.

Of course, those who are enemies of democracy, complain incessantly about Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. It is a perpetual thorn in the side of those who live at the fringes of civilized society, trying to tear down democratic values. But nonetheless, Israel is a democracy fulfilling its obligation under international law, to be a Jewish state.

As for funding nomadic bedouin tribes' encampments, I have no idea what that has to do with anything, other than what I said before. If the nomadic tribes think they can live a better life elsewhere, they have an obvious course of action to take.

takeo

10-11-2002, 08:11 PM

a lot of text but you still can't deny the simple facts, Israel iS discriminating its own minorities, you admitted it in your earlier post. Definition of discrimination: legal inhabitants of a country get less rights and a worse status because they belong to a different etnic/religious group. This is exactly what happened to Jews in nazi-germany and to the Kurds in Iraq and Turkey (at first, before it got even worse, which could happen in Israel as well if people with your ideas will get more power).
it has really no connection at all to communism or neo-keynesian economics, and i didn't call israel/iraq/ turkey fascist because they rejected communism (France did too) but because they discriminate etnic minorities and because these states are based upon the supremacy of one race above the others.

But most other people who live in Western civilization understand a few simple facts:

"1. Israel is a democracy and it was set up by UN Resolution 181 to be a Jewish state."

Yes, as France is a French state, germany a german state and Russia a Russian state, but that doesn't mean that non-jewish citizens should get a worse status, according to the declaration of human rights, which israel signed, all citizens should be equal, whatever their etnic/religious background.

"Notice that it was not Ariel Sharon who created that law, nor was it even the people of Israel who passed that law -- it was the United Nations which created that law by a democratic majority vote expressing the will of the nations of the world. That's who decided that Israel is a Jewish state: The world."

that's right, but the world, by a democratic majority vote expressing the will of the nations of the world, also ordered israel to take back millions of legal inhabitants of the territory of Israel who were banned because of their etnic/religious background, and to stop the occupation of lands conquered in 1967.

"Of course, those who are enemies of democracy, complain incessantly about Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. It is a perpetual thorn in the side of those who live at the fringes of civilized society, trying to tear down democratic values. But nonetheless, Israel is a democracy fulfilling its obligation under international law, to be a Jewish state."

Israel is not fulfilling its obligations under international law, as has been exposed at nauseam on this forum. the un has ordered israel to withdraw the jewish settlements from occupied territories among many other international obligations that israel has ignored so far. Not only "those who live at the fringes of civilized society" criticise Israel, but almost the whole world, including liberals, the whole of Europe, the UN, the Red Cross, CNN, etc. Democratic values means that all legal citizens should not be discriminated on basis of their etnic/religious background, which would not be a democratic policy. One example: Slovakia, the us recognised that Slovakia is a Slovak state but criticised the discrimination against the Hungarian minority under president Meciar.

"As for funding nomadic bedouin tribes' encampments, I have no idea what that has to do with anything, other than what I said before. If the nomadic tribes think they can live a better life elsewhere, they have an obvious course of action to take."

so your logic is: if you don't like our policy, just go elsewhere. Would you react the same way if we were discussing a Jewish settlement? if not, than you favor discrimination.

Mediocrates

10-12-2002, 06:44 AM

A lot of text but basically it's civics 101. You want to say that which is not perfect is a failure. Let's instead focus on the societies in Arab countries and debate their relative openess and freedom and progressive intent. So for example is it better to have all that wealth yet still illiteracy is the worst in the world, infant mortality is high, health care is low and nothing functions in the society. Of course there is little overt descrimination because the Jews and Kurds and Armenians have been expelled or killed off. So who's left? Well everyone - so the general treatment of everyone is poor - but at least it's the same.

Gilgamesh

10-12-2002, 07:32 AM

Beduins already got MANY proper tax payers payed settlemetns and towns. Only, some of them, either from local inner politics, greed or anti zionist ideas the STEEL Israel's national own lands. Knowing the evacuating squatters might lead to a blood bath, the israeli goverment, knowingly, do not impose the law on them, and do not chase them away, fearing bloody riots. Also, many arabs recive huge social benefits while refusing to pay up taxes. Again, facing up with them, could cost lives of policmen and badauins. Thierdly, the Beduins and many "Israeli Arabs" who behaves similarly (ilegal constraction in large scale having social benefits yet they skip taxes) vote for the far left and arab parties (there are four such parties in the knesset, one of them Ahmed Tibi, is Arafat consuliar, other parties include the political branch of the Islamism, and the comunist party)

To put a long story short, out of political reasons (votes) and practical reasons (potenial riots), Israeli goverment discriminating against the JEWS and not the Arabs, Jews has to pay taxes and coordinate with the goverment officials for each and every consraction, pay taxes, sign papers... The same law is not met with the arabs. If a Jew will not pay his bills, he will get disconected, not so an arab. This is a discrimination.

danholo

10-17-2002, 04:20 AM

The Jewish Virtual Library on Israel's Bedouins (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/Bedouin.html)

elke

10-25-2002, 04:19 PM

Here is an interesting article about the Bedouins:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1035430656351

Quote:

When we talk about the service of Beduin in the IDF, their loyalty to the state and their law abidance, the picture is very complicated, because the Beduin community is at the very edge of society. Even within the Arab community, the Beduin are considered marginal.

Batman

10-26-2002, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by I am David
Why does Israel not reconize some Arab villages? I am ignorant on this subject, but why does Israel not give basic services such as health, water, schools, etc to Arab villages that have always been there?

link: http://www.gal-soc.org/negevbackground.html

http://www.gal-soc.org/aboutus.html
The Galilee Society is a leading Palestinian Arab non-partisan, community-wide, non-governmental organization (NGO) located in Israel. ...

http://www.gal-soc.org/news.html
The Committee was formed to urgently extend aid to the Palestinians in the Palestinian areas occupied by Israel ...

why do the Palestinian Arabs not recognize that Jews can also live in the area of Judea Samaria and Gaza? why do they have to make sure to ethnic cleanse the entire area of Jews? and some - too many,would like to see the entire Israel ethnically cleansed of Jews?

Batman

10-26-2002, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by takeo
a lot of text but you still can't deny the simple facts, Israel iS discriminating its own minorities, you admitted it in your earlier post. Definition of discrimination: legal inhabitants of a country get less rights and a worse status because they belong to a different etnic/religious group. This is exactly what happened to Jews in nazi-germany and to the Kurds in Iraq and Turkey (at first, before it got even worse, which could happen in Israel as well if people with your ideas will get more power).
it has really no connection at all to communism or neo-keynesian economics, and i didn't call israel/iraq/ turkey fascist because they rejected communism (France did too) but because they discriminate etnic minorities and because these states are based upon the supremacy of one race above the others.

why do the Palestinian Arabs not recognize that Jews can also live in the area of Judea Samaria and Gaza? why do they have to make sure to ethnic cleanse the entire area of Jews? and some - too many,would like to see the entire Israel ethnically cleansed of Jews?

Dantheman

10-26-2002, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by Batman

why do the Palestinian Arabs not recognize that Jews can also live in the area of Judea Samaria and Gaza? why do they have to make sure to ethnic cleanse the entire area of Jews? and some - too many,would like to see the entire Israel ethnically cleansed of Jews?

SHHHHHH!!!!! (They don't want you to talk about that). :eek: