Palestinian Chaos Factor

[NewsGuy]

In recent days after his pleas for international help have been rebuffed by the US, the EU, and even by Arab states, the beseiged Arafat has been reported to be considering resignation.

While other PA figures have denied Arafat's consideration of resignation, a strong possibility certainly exists that Arafat is finally at the end of his rope.

Whether Arafat would voluntarily resign, or be blasted into the big Shahid holding-cell in the sky by his fellow Arabs or by Israel, the following scenario would most likely unfold:

1. The PA would crumble, since no successor or governing apparatus exists.

2. A power struggle between the Tanzim terrorist street gangs and the Hamas/Hizbullah terrorist gangs would ensue.

3. The Palestinian-controlled would plunge into chaos.

4. Israel would be blamed for the Arab vs. Arab violence that would result from the chaos.

5. Israel would need to impose martial law in the Palestinian territories.

* * *

What does this mean for the peace process?

Which actions should Israel and the Palestinians take now in preparation for the Chaos Factor?

Is there any possible benefit that would result from the Chaos Factor?

[takeo]

of course it's clear that you and Sharon really are waiting for this to happen, as it would mean the end of any peace-talks (nobody to talk with anymore) . that is the real reason why Sharon is constantly destroying the pa facilities. He hopes than he will have free hands to deal with the palestinians "in a propper way".
But you are wrong: the only consequence will be someone more radical than arafat will take over (arafat will not be murdered by a palestinian, both hamas and Jihad leaders stressed that palestinian civil war would be the worst case-scenario) and the ones currently supporting Arafat will move to more radical positions. It will mean a more radical and more violent palestinian unity against israeli aggression, and of course more violence, suicide attacks not every week but every day, etc.

[takeo]

if Israel murders Arafat, it can also forget about any international sympathy, not even in the US, which will be furious as it would be a blow to all their efforts to bring peace. Arab states will be satisfied with nothing else than a full embargo against israel and it would be really imaginable that the EU would support this.
Of course in this case the support for palestinian terrorism would go crescendo and few people or countries would mind anymore violence against a country that murdered an internationally respected leader.

[takeo]

Somehow i hope the extremists in the Israeli government would go as far as this, not only would it divide the current government, but as well would the strong reaction to this force israel on its knees, forcing it to make strong concessions and peace.
Than the life of Arafat would save the life of 1000's or even 10's of 1000's of people.

[Negev]

Originally posted by takeo
if Israel murders Arafat, it can also forget about any international sympathy, not even in the US, which will be furious as it would be a blow to all their efforts to bring peace.

I think Americans will understand that there is no difference between osama bin laden and arafat bin laden.

I hope they make shaheed-kabob out of him. The sooner the better.

The average American won't give a damn and the government neither.

[raven]

No Israli is going to murder Arafat. They have a certified tape of this low life planning a murder of his own. Then we are going to drag his sorry behind into court for it. If he is killed it will be the Pals that want this NOT to happen. Would be terribly embarrasing and discredit the whole movement.

Arafats much more fearful of the Pals than he is of any Israeli and should be. American taxpayers have payed to surround him with guards for 20 years or more. Im sick of paying for it myself.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo


1. of course it's clear that you and Sharon really are waiting for this to happen, as it would mean the end of any peace-talks (nobody to talk with anymore) .

...


2. But you are wrong: the only consequence will be someone more radical than arafat will take over...

1. Yes, I would not shed a tear to see Arafat rolled up in the annals of the history of anti-semitic Arab mass murderers, and become but a distant memory.

But I hope that the changing of Palestinian leadership can bring with it a new chance for a state of non-war.

It is clear to me that Arafat doesn't have what it takes to lead his people into anything but more misery and destruction, so it's high-time for him to go. Personally, I think that it would be a lot cleaner if one of his own Arabs does the dirty work, but if not, I hope that Israel will take a calculated risk and do what is needed, whether it is his expulsion or demise.

2. Many think that someone even worse than Arafat will emerge. I think that it can't really get much worse than now. Already, Israelis are living with the possibility of Islamic terrorist attacks on shopping malls, bus stops, restaurants, discos and weding halls. Also, Palestinians led by Arafat are sending rockets into Israeli border towns hitting schools and community centers.

So, how much worse will an Arafat replacement be? I don't think worse at all, and maybe hopefully better. Otherwise, the next Palestinian dictator will need to be replaced also. Eventually, even the Palestinians will be able to understand that they need to stop their mass murder and ethnic cleansing of the Jews, and then they will be able to have an independent second Palestinian state.

[Negev]

Originally posted by NewsGuy

2. Many think that someone even worse than Arafat will emerge. I think that it can't really get much worse than now. Already, Israelis are living with the possibility of Islamic terrorist attacks on shopping malls, bus stops, restaurants, discos and weding halls. Also, Palestinians led by Arafat are sending rockets into Israeli border towns hitting schools and community centers.


Exactly.

If they turn out to be worse then we will know what to do about it.

Sooner or later they'll get the message alright.

[Bibi4ever]

Ah, Newsguy old buddy. Hope you haven't been getting into too much trouble without me! :D

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Is there any possible benefit that would result from the Chaos Factor?

Yes. possible civil war between Palis where at the end maybe at least one of the terrorist groups will be finished.

Also it could be the perfect time to start building a border like you mentioned before.

[takeo]

"I think Americans will understand that there is no difference between osama bin laden and arafat bin laden.
I hope they make shaheed-kabob out of him. The sooner the better.
The average American won't give a damn and the government neither."

The US invested millions in Arafat and still sees him as the man to bring peace in the Middle East, if you murder him they are for sure not going to appreciate this!


"No Israli is going to murder Arafat. They have a certified tape of this low life planning a murder of his own. Then we are going to drag his sorry behind into court for it. If he is killed it will be the Pals that want this NOT to happen. Would be terribly embarrasing and discredit the whole movement.
Arafats much more fearful of the Pals than he is of any Israeli and should be. American taxpayers have payed to surround him with guards for 20 years or more. Im sick of paying for it myself."

Pals will never kill Arafat, ig he got killed everyone will know who will be responsible...
and if you want a court, only an international court can convict Arafat, nobody will recognise Israeli courts for this (not even the US) or Israel taking Arafat in custody. If they do it will be a reason more to make war and fight Israel and the sympathy and aid won't be with Israel...And you can bet on it an international court will not only persecute Arafat but your own dear extremistic leader in the first place.




"1. Yes, I would not shed a tear to see Arafat rolled up in the annals of the history of anti-semitic Arab mass murderers, and become but a distant memory.
But I hope that the changing of Palestinian leadership can bring with it a new chance for a state of non-war. "

It depends how this change happens, if it happens with Israeli bloodshed and violence you can bet on it there will only be more war and more palestinian determination to fight Israel. if it is a peacefull transition than perhaps someone as moderate as Arafat will take his place (but there are few more moderate than Arafat)

"It is clear to me that Arafat doesn't have what it takes to lead his people into anything but more misery and destruction, so it's high-time for him to go. Personally, I think that it would be a lot cleaner if one of his own Arabs does the dirty work, but if not, I hope that Israel will take a calculated risk and do what is needed, whether it is his expulsion or demise. "

OK, be ready for an even more bloodier stage in the war (100% your own fault and nobody will feel sorry for you, me in the last place). In stead of blaming Arafat for everything you might consider for once what would happen if he wasn't there... nobody to refrain palestinian anger directed towards Israel, but instead a coordinated action against Israel from the pa-office (that is exactly what is NOT happening right now, even after several attacks on the pa-buildings i think the time has come for the PA to defend itself against the aggression. No tank or bulldozer entering autonomous area should leave unharmed). I heard this from even Hanan Ashrawi, considered the most moderate voice in the PLO... she said Arafat was too soft.
Try to blame sharon for a change, and understand that he didn't keep his promise to bring peace and that his solutions will never lead to peace.

"2. Many think that someone even worse than Arafat will emerge. I think that it can't really get much worse than now. Already, Israelis are living with the possibility of Islamic terrorist attacks on shopping malls, bus stops, restaurants, discos and weding halls. Also, Palestinians led by Arafat are sending rockets into Israeli border towns hitting schools and community centers. "

It can't be getting worse? oh man, those attacks can happen every day or several a day, as during the hottest period of the current Intifadeh, and if all the radical militia who are now more or less acting independantly (not supported by the PA) would join forces with palestinian police... it will be an intifadeh as in the 80's, but this time with fireguns instead of stones...

"So, how much worse will an Arafat replacement be? I don't think worse at all, and maybe hopefully better. Otherwise, the next Palestinian dictator will need to be replaced also. Eventually, even the Palestinians will be able to understand that they need to stop their mass murder and ethnic cleansing of the Jews, and then they will be able to have an independent second Palestinian state."

First Arafat has been elected, you may seem to forget this. and you can replace as many "dictators" as you like, they will go underground and coordinate a massive attack on Israel, possibly in coordination with Arabc states,something some people inside PLO want to do but Arafat is not prepared to do. the "terrorirsm" will never stop if Israel thinks it will stop the violence by killing its leaders and acting more violently towards the palestinians. More violence will lead to more violence. It is clear that the Sharon-policy only made the palestinians more radical, and made Arafat powerless (literally so, without a police anymore, destroyed by Israel). If Israel would start talking with Arafat and thinking about solutions to start negociating and stop terror in coordination with the PA (as previous governments did, with a lot less bloodshed than today as a consequance) this is currently the only way to escape out of this infernal circle of blood. Doesn't seem likely with a war-criminal as a head of state. Israel choose for war, that's what they got.




"Exactly.

If they turn out to be worse then we will know what to do about it.

Sooner or later they'll get the message alright."

You will know what to do about it and they will know how to anwer, and the next cycle of violence will start, Israel will be a roghe state and the whole arab and Islamic world and a lot of the other countries too would be behind the Palestinians, supporting them with weapons and aid. The Palestinians have nothing to loose in such an open war except their lifes, Israeli have a lot to loose!



"Yes. possible civil war between Palis where at the end maybe at least one of the terrorist groups will be finished.
Also it could be the perfect time to start building a border like you mentioned before. "

Don't count on it, they never fought ith each other and won't do it in the future either. You can build this border but for this you will have to displace massive amounts of palestinians, they will not voluntarily leave their houses so a lot of death will occure, and this could finally lead to international trade-sanctions against Israel. besides such borders won't stop terrorism, as we can see the very tight security mesures can't stop terrorism. And people will always be able to slip behind the wall, and for every death civilian palestinian 10 more are ready to suicide themselves, we all know were it begins but noone knows were it ends...
it is clear however that it will have VERY bad consequences for israel. My Russian friends in Israel have already registered for a visum to France if that may be an indication...
And don't blame the pals, you know exactly what to do to achieve peace, people are yelling it in the streets of Tel Aviv and Yerusalem, if you choose war than please don't complain about the consequences...
I REALLY hope sharon and likud get kicked out of office next elections (which will be pertty soon if Perez retreats, if the man still has some responsability he should do it immidiately or he will be on the trash of history the same way as Sharon)

[takeo]

Take some lessons from Vietnam (or the nazi's in Russia): you can never win a war against a total population determined to fight to foreign occupier, you can win against armies, regimes and states, but not against a total population.

[aid]

But you Commies have won against the whole population.

But then no one can comapre with you in brutality.

[takeo]

The commies have won because they had the support of the population, otherwise they could never have won (they didn't win in Afghanistan because they hadn't the support of the population).

[aid]

When you win it is due to your total, overwhelming and comprehensive terror.

[takeo]

bullshit, you can only win if you have huge popular support or if you have better weapons and technology.
the Vietnamese did support the communists and it were the Americans who killed millions of people in Vietnam during bombardments, not the communist guerilla. (American commanders stated many times that it was difficult to make any separation between the civilians in the villages and the guerilla, today israel is faced with the same problem many occupiing armies have in common.

[Negev]

Originally posted by takeo
today israel is faced with the same problem many occupiing armies have in common.

yeah right.

Israel's only problem in ridding itself of the Palestinians is like others have said here that many countries around the world are oil slaves to the Arabs and have sabotaged Israel's self-defense forcing Israel to fight with 1 hand tied behind her back.

[takeo]

"ridding itself of the Palestinians "

By saying this it is clear that not only the terrorists are your target...

Maybe it is difficult to understand for you but many countries around the world don't support a war against a whole population and illegal occupation. Other countries that would dare to do the same as Israel today (Serbia for example, China, indonesia, ... ) would be faced by a lot more international resistance AND sanctions, and should be.

[Negev]

Originally posted by takeo
around the world don't support a war against a whole population and illegal occupation.

Wars happen between nations all over the world all the time.

Israel and the Palestinians are at war now.

It's just that simple.

[takeo]

it's not that simple. Palestinians are occupied by israel, this occupation is illegal and resented by the population.
in the international context no single country can occupy another country or region without international sanctions, look at Iraq or Indonesia, or Morocco, only Israel can, because they have the support of the most powerfull nation in the world. However this support won't stop the resistance of the oppressed population ,that will continue as long as the oppression continues. This is not simply war against a state, this is war against an entire population.

[aid]

1. Palestinians are not occupied by Israel for the simple reason that no Palestinian state exists or ever existed. There is no occupation.

2. Occupations are totally legal, legitimate and necessary until a pece treaty is concluded. For example the occupation of Germany by the Allies was perfectly legal, legitimate, necessary and righteous because it resulted from the German aggression.

Israeli troops are where they are for the same reason the Allied troops were (and still are) in Germany and US troops are in Japan - to ensure Israel's security and prevent aggression.

3. Border always change as a result of wars.


The borders of Germany were drastically changed with Germany losing as much as one third of its territory, with many millions of Germans expelled from the no longer German territories.

Today, no one is questioning the post-war borders in Europe. Russia even ended up in posession of territory separated from it by two (!) countries. That territory - Kaliningrad oblast', formerly East Prussia - had never before belonged to Russia, as are the the formerly Japanese Kuril islands.

I don't know why you are not preoccupied with the rigths of tens of millions of Germans to return to Russia, Poland, Czech Republik, Slovakia, Romania. It looks like the only thing you are interested in is the destruction of Israel. I am quite sure that the plight of Arabs is not of concern to you per se, otherwise you'd be very upset about the way the Arab regimes treat their people, and how they treat non-Arabs and non-Muslims.

I am not sure where this hatred of the Jewish State comes from. Apparently it is in the French air and in Communist papers.

The stench of both of them is overwhelming.

[takeo]

My indignation against Israeli policy started when i first visited a palestinian refugee camp in the gaza and there you could just smell the fascist treatment Israel forced upon an entire people. Whatever my etnic origin, i could never defend such injustice and repression, and i can very well imagine if i would have been locked up in such a camp since my youth i would want noting else but killig as many Israeli as possible. i have been educated and know such act wouldn't help the palestinians and that not all Israeli citizens are responsible for the acts of their government. But these people are desperate, don't have a future, and it is astonishing that such kind of repression is tolerated by the world.

"1. Palestinians are not occupied by Israel for the simple reason that no Palestinian state exists or ever existed. There is no occupation. "

Well, that is just like deniing the moon is shining in the night. the whole world and the UN knows that those regions doesn't belong to israel and nowhere except in israel you will find a map where these territories are included in Israel. By deniing the inhabitants of this territory the right to vote or move freely even Israel itself doesn't see this regions as a part of Israel. there wasn't a palestinian state but that doesn't mean Israel had to right to occupy, for sure it wasn't upon Israel to decide what would happen with those territories but upon to the populations who inhabited this regions. They were part of Jordan, Egypt and Syria when israel attacked, these countries never ever recognised this territories to be part of israel.
Besides when the Arabs attacked Israel in 1948 there wasn't an Israeli state as well, so this attack was legitimised according to you?


"2. Occupations are totally legal, legitimate and necessary until a pece treaty is concluded. For example the occupation of Germany by the Allies was perfectly legal, legitimate, necessary and righteous because it resulted from the German aggression. "

Which peace? it seems you don't want peace with the Palestinians, they waited already since 1967 but still no peace-deal has been concluded. After the occupation of germany only one year later the both german republics gained full independance and had the right to force the foreign troops to leave(they didn't do so because of the cold war). There is another difference with Germany, ISRAEL started the war in 1967, so Israel was the agressor and it was a pure war of conquest. this is absolutely illegal in international law and it is even more illegal to stay at those conquered territories.






"The borders of Germany were drastically changed with Germany losing as much as one third of its territory, with many millions of Germans expelled from the no longer German territories.
Today, no one is questioning the post-war borders in Europe. Russia even ended up in posession of territory separated from it by two (!) countries. That territory - Kaliningrad oblast', formerly East Prussia - had never before belonged to Russia, as are the the formerly Japanese Kuril islands.
I don't know why you are not preoccupied with the rigths of tens of millions of Germans to return to Russia, Poland, Czech Republik, Slovakia, Romania."

I am preoccupied with the rights of millions of germans (not tens of millions of people by the way) and today there are negotiations going on between Germany and Czech republic, poland and yougoslavia (the only three countries where Germans were expelled) for compensation of possible return. this etnic cleansing was similar to the one Israel conducted and has been condamned at that time by the "free western world".
About the borders: those borders were changed and recognised by the entire international community, that's why they are legitimised now. concerning israel no single country recognised the occupation and military conquest of westbank, Gaza and Eastern jerusalem. That's why this is not legitimised and why the borders didn't change. Israel also started the war in 1967, while germany started the wat in WWII. No single country can just start a war and conquer other territory without recognition of the rest of the world. Indonesia and Iraq tried it, and they lost. So will Israel, it will only take longer.


I am upset at human rights abuses in Arab countries, however in no single Arab country the citizens are treated worse than the Palestinians in the occupied territories, where they are not treated as human beings but as animals. Even the Kurds in Iraq hav more freedom the the Palestinians.
i have always had sympathy for oppressed, that's why i have sympathy for the palestinians and not for Israel.

[takeo]

ps: if i would have lived in the 50's i would have resented the frensh oppression in Algeria as well.

[Negev]

Originally posted by takeo
Whatever my etnic origin, i could never defend such injustice and repression, and i can very well imagine if i would have been locked up in such a camp since my youth i would want noting else but killig as many Israeli as possible.

If I were a Palestinian growing up in such a camp I would be very angry with my own Palestinian leadership and with Palestinian terrorist groups who have brought all these troubles on their people.

I would be very angry that my fellow Arabs didn't negotiate like civilized people for a country for me. I would be very angry that they rejected the 1948 UN partition which would have provided for a peaceful country.

I would be very angry that my fellow Arabs who have gobs and gobs of oil money don't give their own people a penny and force them to live like dogs in the filthy streets of Gaza.

I'd be really pissed off that my corrupt Arab leaders have pocketed all the international money meant for palestinian education and public works. Instead it was tucked away in private bank acounts and used to buy weapons, not food for their fellow Arabs.

You can blame Israel all you like but the Arabs have brought all these troubles in themselves and need to take responsibility so they can start to fix their problems instead of living in denial. You know the first step to recovery is recognizing you have a problem. Someone needs to tell this to the Arabs.

[takeo]

the problem the Arabs in Gaza and westbank have is that they are oppressed by Israeli soldiers and that their land is occupied by israeli troops, without any legitimation. Even if there were terrorist attacks and Arabs didn't accept the partition in 1948 , it was still no reason for the continuing collective punishment and oppression of an entire population. Israel can't fool the world, the Israeli soldiers are there, not willing to talk to moderate palestinians and destroying everything the palestinians have, occupying them and denying them every right since 1967, all this can not be legitimised by nothing and Israel can change this situation every moment id there would be the will, the palestinians can not. The Palestinians are not held in camps, evicted from their houses, by their leaders but by Israel. If this is a policy to contain terrorism (which it isn't, it's imperialism) it is a very stupid one. One can't make peace by oppressing an entire people, sooner or later those will take revenge and have the right to do so. The "cure" is also worse than the disease, it is not because al-quaida attacked the us that the us now has the right to possess afghanistan as a colony.

[L@mplighterM]

I think you'd make a good social worker takeo. I suggest you return to the Gaza strip and listen to translated propaganda *GGGGGGGG*.

There's not one shed of evidence that Palestinians have the ability to live peacefully. What evidence can you provide that they would cease all terrorist activities if they were given everything they want???????????????? PROOF !!!!!!!!!! NONE !!!!!

You base all your assumptions on dreams, not reality.

They HATE jews period !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[takeo]

there isn't any evidence as well that Israel has the ability to live in peace, since its independance it started two wars and couldn't make peace with its neighbours.
besides, if you don't give them a chance to live in peace with their own country you will never know and there will always be war in the Middle East for decades to come. This is the Sharon-option.
Peace with Egypt is still peace untill today, and even without a peace-treaty violence against Israel from Libanon diminished sharply. If Sharon would have been leader in those times we would now be witness of an all open war against all Israel's neighbours.

[L@mplighterM]

You have it all wrong sonny *** backwards.

[Solon]

Top 5 desperate lies heard on this board time and time again:

1. The Palestinians are oppressed. False.
The Palestinian have complete control over more than 90% of the territory partitioned by the UN. They have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of commerce and complete control over their government, municipalities and foreign policy.

2. The Palestinians have no rights. False.
They have plenty of rights. They have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of commerce and complete control over their government, municipalities and foreign policy.

3. Palestinian problems all come from Ariel Sharon. False.
Like NewsGuy and Negev have written: terrorism, Islamic extremism, illiteracy, ignorance, primitive culture and public corruption are at the root of Palestinian problems.

4. Arafat can't do anything against terrorism. False.
He has a good size army which has managed to squash all opposition to Arafat and can eliminate terrorism wihthin 24 hours (This is the very words of the Palestinian council - Fri. Jan. 25, 2002).

5. Palestinians are justified in killing innocent Israeli people. False.
There is no excuse for Islamic terorrism. All this Islamic propaganda about so-called oppression and all the other lies used by low-lifes to glorify suicide bombings are just garbage. As soon as the Saudi Prince who came to visit the site of the WTC in NY started with that trash, they tore up his $10 million check and threw him the **** out of the US. That's the way to treat those making excuses for the Islamic terrorists.

I say the ones doing PR for murderers are just as guilty as the murderers themselves.

[aid]

Well, Takeo.

Your history of the ME comes straight from the worst sewers of the Arab propaganda. Again, even Pravda in the Soviet Union was more objective than you. Your kind of "history" can only be found in the most anti-Semitic sources - Fascist, Communist and Islamist.

The very short history of the Six-Day War is this:

On May 22, Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to all Israeli shipping and all ships bound for Eilat. This blockade cut off Israel's only supply route with Asia and stopped the flow of oil from its main supplier, Iran.

In 1956, the United States gave Israel assurances that it recognized the Jewish State's right of access to the Straits of Tiran. In 1957, at the UN, 17 maritime powers declared that Israel had a right to transit the Strait. Moreover, the blockade violated the Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone, which was adopted by the UN Conference on the Law of the Sea on April 27, 1958.(8)

President Johnson expressed the belief that the blockade was illegal and unsuccessfully tried to organize an international flotilla to test it. After the war, he acknowledged the closure of the Strait of Tiran was the casus belli (June 19, 1967):

If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Strait of Tiran would be closed. The right of innocent maritime passage must be preserved for all nations.(9)

Escalation
Nasser was fully aware of the pressure he was exerting to force Israel's hand. The day after the blockade was set up, he said defiantly: "The Jews threaten to make war. I reply: Welcome! We are ready for war."(10)

Nasser challenged Israel to fight almost daily. "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight," he said on May 27.(11) The following day, he added: "We will not accept any...coexistence with Israel...Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel....The war with Israel is in effect since 1948."(12)

King Hussein of Jordan signed a defense pact with Egypt on May 30. Nasser then announced:

The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations.(13)

President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq joined in the war of words: "The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map."(14) On June 4, Iraq joined the military alliance with Egypt, Jordan and Syria.

The Arab rhetoric was matched by the mobilization of Arab forces. Approximately 250,000 troops (nearly half in Sinai), more than 2,000 tanks and 700 aircraft ringed Israel.(15)

By this time, Israeli forces had been on alert for three weeks. The country could not remain fully mobilized indefinitely, nor could it allow its sea lane through the Gulf of Aqaba to be interdicted. Israel had no choice but preemptive action. To do this successfully, Israel needed the element of surprise. Had it waited for an Arab invasion, Israel would have been at a potentially catastrophic disadvantage. On June 5, the order was given to attack Egypt.

The U.S. Position
The United States tried to prevent the war through negotiations, but it was not able to persuade Nasser or the other Arab states to cease their belligerent statements and actions. Still, right before the war, Johnson warned: "Israel will not be alone unless it decides to go alone."(16) Then, when the war began, the State Department announced: "Our position is neutral in thought, word and deed."(17)

Moreover, while the Arabs were falsely accusing the United States of airlifting supplies to Israel, Johnson imposed an arms embargo on the region (France, Israel's other main arms supplier also embargoed arms to Israel).

By contrast, the Soviets were supplying massive amounts of arms to the Arabs. Simultaneously, the armies of Kuwait, Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Iraq were contributing troops and arms to the Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian fronts.(18)


Jerusalem Is Attacked
Prime Minister Levi Eshkol sent a message to King Hussein saying Israel would not attack Jordan unless he initiated hostilities. When Jordanian radar picked up a cluster of planes flying from Egypt to Israel, and the Egyptians convinced Hussein the planes were theirs, he then ordered the shelling of West Jerusalem. It turned out the planes were Israel's, and were returning from destroying the Egyptian air force on the ground.

After Jordan launched its attack on June 5, approximately 325,000 Palestinians living in the West Bank fled.(19) These were Jordanian citizens who moved from one part of what they considered their country to another, primarily to avoid being caught in the cross fire of a war.

Palestinian refugee who was an administrator in a UNRWA camp in Jericho said Arab politicians had spread rumors in the camp. "They said all the young people would be killed. People heard on the radio that this is not the end, only the beginning, so they think maybe it will be a long war and they want to be in Jordan."(20)

The Stunning Victory
After just six days of fighting, Israeli forces broke through the enemy lines and were in a position to march on Cairo, Damascus and Amman. A ceasefire was invoked on June 10.

The victory came at a very high cost. In storming the Golan Heights, Israel suffered 115 dead-roughly the number of Americans killed during Operation Desert Storm. Altogether, Israel lost twice as many men — 777 dead and 2,586 wounded-in proportion to her total population as the U.S. lost in eight years of fighting in Vietnam.(23) Also, despite the incredible success of the air campaign, the Israeli Air Force lost 46 of its 200 fighters.(24)

By the end of the war, Israel had conquered enough territory to more than triple the size of the area it controlled, from 8,000 to 26,000 square miles. The victory enabled Israel to unify Jerusalem. Israeli forces had also captured the Sinai, Golan Heights, Gaza Strip and West Bank.

Israel now ruled more than three-quarters of a million Palestinians — most of whom were hostile to the government. Nevertheless, more than 9,000 Palestinian families were reunited in 1967. [B]Ultimately, more than 60,000 Palestinians were allowed to return.(25)[B]

[aid]

Continue:

In November 1967, the United Nations Security Council adopted Resolution 242, which established a formula for Arab-Israeli peace whereby Israel would withdraw from territories occupied in the war in exchange for peace with its neighbors. This resolution has served as the basis for peace negotiations from that time on.

Israel's leaders fully expected to negotiate a peace agreement with their neighbors that would involve some territorial compromise. Therefore, instead of annexing the West Bank, a military administration was created. No occupation is pleasant for the inhabitants, but the Israeli authorities did try to minimize the impact on the population. Don Peretz, a frequent writer on the situation of Arabs in Israel and a sharp critic of the Israeli government, visited the West Bank shortly after the Israeli troops had taken over. He found they were trying to restore normal life and prevent any incidents that might encourage the Arabs to leave their homes.(26)

Except for the requirement that school texts in the territories be purged of anti-Israel and anti-Semitic language, the authorities tried not to interfere with the inhabitants. They did provide economic assistance; for example, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip were moved from camps to new homes. This stimulated protests from Egypt, which had done nothing for the refugees when it controlled the area.

Arabs were given freedom of movement. They were allowed to travel to and from Jordan. In 1972, elections were held in the West Bank. Women and non-landowners, unable to participate under Jordanian rule, were now permitted to vote.

East Jerusalem Arabs were given the option of retaining Jordanian citizenship or acquiring Israeli citizenship. They were recognized as residents of united Jerusalem and given the right to vote and run for the city council. Also, Islamic holy places were put in the care of a Muslim Council. Despite the Temple Mount's significance in Jewish history, Jews were barred from conducting prayers there.

Notes
(1)Encyclopedia Americana Annual 1961, (NY: Americana Corporation, 1961), p. 387.

(2)Yehoshafat Harkabi, Arab Attitudes To Israel, (Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1972), p. 27.

(3)Howard Sachar, A History of Israel: From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time, (NY: Alfred A. Knopf, 1979), p. 616.

(4)Samuel Katz, Battleground-Fact and Fantasy in Palestine, (NY: Bantam Books, 1985), pp. 10-11, 185.

(5)Netanel Lorch, One Long War, (Jerusalem: Keter, 1976), p. 110.

(6) Isi Leibler, The Case For Israel, (Australia: The Globe Press, 1972), p. 60.

(7)Ibid.

(8)United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea, (Geneva: UN Publications 1958), pp. 132-134.

(9)Yehuda Lukacs, Documents on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict 1967-1983, (NY: Cambridge University Press, 1984), pp. 17-18; Abba Eban, Abba Eban, (NY: Random House, 1977), p. 358

(10)Eban, p. 330.

(11)Leibler, p. 60.

(12)Leibler, p. 18.

(13)Leibler, p. 60.

(14)Leibler, p. 18.

(15)Chaim Herzog, The Arab-Israeli Wars, (NY: Random House, 1982), p. 149.

(16)Lyndon B. Johnson, The Vantage Point: Perspectives of the Presidency 1963-1969, (NY: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1971), p. 293.

(17)AP, (June 5, 1967).

(18)Sachar, p. 629.

(19)Encyclopedia American Annual 1968, p. 366.

(20)George Gruen, "The Refugees of Arab-Israeli Conflict," (NY: American Jewish Committee, March 1969), p. 5.

(21)Gruen, p. 5.

(22)Gruen, p. 4.

(23)Katz, p. 3.

(24)Jerusalem Post, (4/23/99).

(25)Encyclopedia American Annual 1968, p. 366.

(26)Don Peretz, "Israel's New Dilemma," Middle East Journal, (Winter 1968), pp. 45-46..

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This speaks for itself. The Arab States were the aggressors, including Jordan, which was in posession of the territories in question. Even if one consider the current situation as "occupation", the occupation is comparable to the Aliied occupation of Germany and Japan, or more so, considering the Arab plans of genocide and total destruction of Israel.

The case is closed Takeo.

Let's go now to your "minor" but brazen lies.

[B]I am preoccupied with the rights of millions of germans (not tens of millions of people by the way) and today there are negotiations going on between Germany and Czech republic, poland and yougoslavia (the only three countries where Germans were expelled) for compensation of possible return. this etnic cleansing was similar to the one Israel conducted and has been condamned at that time by the "free western world".[B]

In reality this is what happened:

As far as the decisions with regard to the Expulsion of the Germans, those were taken as early as at the Teheran Conference, and confirmed, or actually expanded, at the Yalta Conference, and finally at the Potsdam Conference, where they were more or less articulated in ARTICLE 13 of the Potsdam Protocol.
In this ARTICLE 13 the allies agreed that it was necessary to transfer the German populations from what they referred to as Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary. They did not mention the Donauschwaben, the areas in Yugoslavia, or the areas in Rumania, but in fact all of these countries were in the process of pushing the Germans out at the time.
And the reason for these expulsions from East Prussia, Rumania and from Silesia was ostensibly that Poland was to be given compensation. Compensation for the territory of eastern Poland that had been annexed by the Soviet Union pursuant to the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact of 1939.

Now as you all know, the more than 12 million German expellees who survived, and who have come to the Federal Republic of Germany, have been integrated into the democracy that the Federal Republic of Germany is, and have contributed to the European reconstruction and to the so-called
Wirtschaftswunder, which was facilitated through the funds of the Marshall Plan.

More than 12 million, Takeo. Some very large cities, such as Koenigsberg, Breslau, Danzig were emptied out. They were totally German. I have been to Kaliningrad oblast myself and can personally witness it. Of all Germans in Koenigsberg there remain two: the two poets and friends, Goethe and Schiller, hand in hand - on a monument.

Over 12 million, Takeo. How many of their descendants live today? 20, 25 million?

I have not been able to find any signs of German return to their lands on the Web. Another brazen lie, Takeo. You keep ignoring every mention of East Prussia, btw, occupied by Russia. I know you don't like that topic.

You also said somewhere that when the Arab states attacked Israel in 1948, the State of Israel did not exist yet. What ignorance or what a lie! You know nothing TAkeo. You are totally, incredibly ignorant. THe Arab States attacked Israel on the day Israel declared independance. I have a copy of the Palestinian Post from taht day reporting this and the first bombing attack of Egyptian aircraft on Tel Aviv on the Day of Independence.


[B]I am upset at human rights abuses in Arab countries, however in no single Arab country the citizens are treated worse than the Palestinians in the occupied territories, where they are not treated as human beings but as animals. Even the Kurds in Iraq hav more freedom the the Palestinians.[B]


No you are not. According to Iraqi propaganda itself, more than a million of Iraqi children died after the Gulf War. Even if only half of that number did, this is Saddam's regime responsibility. Gassed Kurds, 20,000 Syrians massacred in one night, Sudanese Christians crucified, Egyptian Kopts killed - atrocities and tyranny all across the Arab world is of no interest to you. Why should they?

Firstly, you represent a tyrannical ideology - Communism - yourself.

Secondly, as every follower of totalitarian, Fascist-like ideology, you are a Judophobe. Judaism and tyranny are incomaptible. Judaism and Communism are incompatible. This is why you are an anti-Semite.


[B]i have always had sympathy for oppressed, that's why i have sympathy for the palestinians and not for Israel.[B]

As we have already discovered, you don't have any sympathy for the oppressed anywhere else and especially in Arab states - one giant Jurassic Park of an incredible mixtire of pre-Feudal triablism Feudalism, Fascism and Communism. It's all a lie.

Just remember this date, Herr Comrade Takeo:

Israel Independence Day is celebrated annually on 5 Iyar, the anniversary of the establishment of the State of Israel (May 14, 1948). The day preceding this celebration is devoted to the memory of those who gave their lives for the achievement of the country's independence and its continued existence.

This is Yom HaAtzmaut. To you, and every other red-brown Fascist, it is a day of mourning. To Jews it is a day of celebration.

[takeo]

"1. The Palestinians are oppressed. False.
The Palestinian have complete control over more than 90% of the territory partitioned by the UN. They have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of commerce and complete control over their government, municipalities and foreign policy. "

90% of the territory partitioned by the UN? what? they don't even have 90% of Gaza-strip and less than half of the westbank and Eastern yerusalem. freedom of speach? is that why Israel destroyed radio and television facilities? freedom of commerce? lol, they can't even leave their own town and can't have commerce with their Arab neighbours. Complete controll over their government? They had, but israel is determinted to destroy this government and by doing this give free hand to the militia's. Even BBC middle East analyst Cohen said that the policy of Sharon has only created more such groups and more attacks.
Foreign policy? they can't do nothing without the approval of israel.

"2. The Palestinians have no rights. False.
They have plenty of rights. They have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of commerce and complete control over their government, municipalities and foreign policy. "
see above + they dont even have the right to stay in their houses , which are being destroyed without any proof that these are being used for terroristic purposes.


"3. Palestinian problems all come from Ariel Sharon. False.
Like NewsGuy and Negev have written: terrorism, Islamic extremism, illiteracy, ignorance, primitive culture and public corruption are at the root of Palestinian problems. "

all these things you mention are a consequence of years of Israeli repression (except maybe corruption).

"4. Arafat can't do anything against terrorism. False.
He has a good size army which has managed to squash all opposition to Arafat and can eliminate terrorism wihthin 24 hours (This is the very words of the Palestinian council - Fri. Jan. 25, 2002). "

Wrong, he can't do anything in reality. even some factions of his own fatah don't want to see how Israel destroys them but want to retaliate, they created new factions, hamas and Jihad have grown spectacular in popularity the last months. When in december the PA tried to crack down on hamas it was faced with angry mobs of people, if he would push it trough it would mean civil war, and in the face of the current israeli aggression this is the last what palestinians want (in that case Israel would say, look at those fighting palestinians, why would we care about them?) . Also his police force has seriously been diminished and weakened by the Israeli actions that destroyed almost all police infrastructure since half a year now. Since last year according to Cohen the number of new "terrorist" factions has grown rapidly because the PA is loosing autority very quickly.

"5. Palestinians are justified in killing innocent Israeli people. False.
There is no excuse for Islamic terorrism. All this Islamic propaganda about so-called oppression and all the other lies used by low-lifes to glorify suicide bombings are just garbage. As soon as the Saudi Prince who came to visit the site of the WTC in NY started with that trash, they tore up his $10 million check and threw him the **** out of the US. That's the way to treat those making excuses for the Islamic terrorists. "

there is also no excuse for the terrostic acts of the israeli government against the palestinian population. Both are equally wrong. All terrorist acts against innocent people are despisable.

"I say the ones doing PR for murderers are just as guilty as the murderers themselves."

not completely, but partly yes. You extreme-right-wing people are responsible for the murder on Rabin, for the policy of Netanyahu that killed Oslo and for the current terrorist policy of Sharon to exterminate palestinian government and eventually the palestinian population.

[L@mplighterM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by takeo
[B]My indignation against Israeli policy started when i first visited a palestinian refugee camp in the gaza and there you could just smell the fascist treatment Israel forced upon an entire people. Whatever my etnic origin, i could never defend such injustice and repression, and i can very well imagine if i would have been locked up in such a camp since my youth i would want noting else but killig as many Israeli as possible. i have been educated and know such act wouldn't help the palestinians and that not all Israeli citizens are responsible for the acts of their government. But these people are desperate, don't have a future, and it is astonishing that such kind of repression is tolerated by the world.

Many terrorists are well educated. Why didn't you stay in the gaza strip??????????? It seems to me that's where you belong.

[takeo]

Why don't you go to one of those Israeli settlements? If you really want a war against the Palestinians than you should be in the frontlines and expose yourself to the danger. besides, with your mentality, you would fit wonderfull well amongst those extremistic fascists, murderers and thiefes.
You continuously defend israeli policy of extermination of palestinian leadership, but you are not even israeli yourself. You call for more war and bloodshed in a region you don't live in.
I don't live there as well, but i don't call ofr war, i call for peace between the PA and Israel, and maybe, when this peace would be established, i would consider moving to Israel (because the weather is nicer and i have some friends there, who are member of meretz by the way and,no, they aren't Arab)

[aid]

Why don't you grab an AK-47 and go fight the Zionist aggression?

Why don't you fulfill your international duty?

What kind of a Communist are you if you don't?

[L@mplighterM]

Self defence has nothing to do about wanting a war.

[takeo]

It isn't self-defense. The question is not about the future of Israel, the question is about the future of the occupied territories.
i'm not that kind of communist, war can only be conducted if peacefull solutions are not possible. And the palestinians have to defend themselves, the task of the world is to force Israel to make concessions, with economic and diplomatic mesures.

[L@mplighterM]

Your history lessons were perverted.

There's another thing I want to tell you and that is that I want to be a pacifist so don't you go accusing me of wanting war.

You Arabs should just read western history books and learn about your bogus king Salem. Then take up your problems with your lying leaders.

A refugee like you should have no problem finding the truth that is if you're not sitting in a Bagdad coffee shop.

[takeo]

lomplighter what is your definition of pacifism?????????

[L@mplighterM]

The opposite to your defenition !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[aid]

Originally posted by takeo
It isn't self-defense. The question is not about the future of Israel, the question is about the future of the occupied territories.
i'm not that kind of communist, war can only be conducted if peacefull solutions are not possible. And the palestinians have to defend themselves, the task of the world is to force Israel to make concessions, with economic and diplomatic mesures.

Takeo, to you the question may be not about the future of Israel (although I am sure that for you it is THE QUESTION - with a negative answer), but to almost all Jews it is the question. So please stop imposing your own ideology and sentiments on us here.

You are not that kind of communist? Have I not heard something like this before? "I am not THAT kind of woman"...

And the Israelis have to defend themselves, the task of the world is to force Arabs to make concessions, with economic and diplomatic mesures, and by providing Israel with political and moral support in its hard existential battle.

[Bibi4ever]

Originally posted by Solon
Top 5 desperate lies heard on this board time and time again:

1. The Palestinians are oppressed. False.
The Palestinian have complete control over more than 90% of the territory partitioned by the UN. They have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of commerce and complete control over their government, municipalities and foreign policy.

2. The Palestinians have no rights. False.
They have plenty of rights. They have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of commerce and complete control over their government, municipalities and foreign policy.

3. Palestinian problems all come from Ariel Sharon. False.
Like NewsGuy and Negev have written: terrorism, Islamic extremism, illiteracy, ignorance, primitive culture and public corruption are at the root of Palestinian problems.

4. Arafat can't do anything against terrorism. False.
He has a good size army which has managed to squash all opposition to Arafat and can eliminate terrorism wihthin 24 hours (This is the very words of the Palestinian council - Fri. Jan. 25, 2002).

5. Palestinians are justified in killing innocent Israeli people. False.
There is no excuse for Islamic terorrism. All this Islamic propaganda about so-called oppression and all the other lies used by low-lifes to glorify suicide bombings are just garbage. As soon as the Saudi Prince who came to visit the site of the WTC in NY started with that trash, they tore up his $10 million check and threw him the **** out of the US. That's the way to treat those making excuses for the Islamic terrorists.

I say the ones doing PR for murderers are just as guilty as the murderers themselves.

Solon,

You're getting better in your old age.

;)

[Bibi4ever]

Originally posted by takeo
i have some friends there, who are member of meretz by the way and,no, they aren't Arab)

No such thing as a meretz member who is not an arab.

[aid]

Even Meretz is a Zionist party. Sarid is relatively moderate (in comparison with this dragon lady Aloni).

Even Meretzniks don't like Commies all that much...