No no to Mega Mosque

[maven]

The three main parties refuse to rule out the building of a mega mosque beside one of the last areas occupied by poor whites in the socialist London borough of Newham.

Newham has the highest young population and one of the lowest white native British populations in the country according to the 2001 Census. The borough has the second highest percentage of Muslims in Britain (24.3%). This figure has grown rapidly since that census due to large Muslim family sizes.

The mosque and the continuing ethnic cleansing of native Britains will cede a large slice of London to Islam.

This report could not have been made in the UK as the liberal media sweep such issues under the carpet.

People in Britain are now dependent on free speech in the United States to inform them of what is going on in their own country.

Note that 'moderate' Muslim who is speaking aginst it is a minority Sh'ia; the mosque is Sunni.

Planning permission is still being withheld and there is a suspicion that the plan will go ahead after Saudi rescues the 2012 games from financial disaster sometime before 2012:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJTcNNAhBu8
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[andak01]

The mosque and the continuing ethnic cleansing of native Britains will cede a large slice of London to Islam.

What the hell do you define as "ethnic cleansing"? Do you even realize that many British Muslims are also born in Britain?

[Mediocrates]

I thought there was a big mosque going up on a site next to the 2012 Olympics venue and no one appeared to mind that. Why this?

[andak01]

Whether or not a new building is created as a mosque, there will still be mosques. And if Muslims are forbidden to create them, they'll meet in strip malls or their homes. This is all about appearances.

[Yala]

The mosque and the continuing ethnic cleansing of native Britains will cede a large slice of London to Islam.



This is such nonsense. Ethnic cleansing? Be serious. The Muslims are there because the British gov't wanted them there. You and Newsguy have got to stop blaming this stuff on Muslims.

In Britain, the main parties are left and radical left and both favor multiculturalism, so again, your beef cannot and should not be with Muslims, but with the main parties - which are British.

[Yala]

Whether or not a new building is created as a mosque, there will still be mosques. And if Muslims are forbidden to create them, they'll meet in strip malls or their homes. This is all about appearances.

It seems to be some typical xenophobic British are trying to send "a message" to Muslims, of the radical variety (or even in general, who knows...), but doing it in the most stupid way possible....as if stopping the building of a mosque will stop jihadis....

[Yala]

OK, i watched the first minute of the video and I see it is from the racist and Jew hating BNP. Bravo.

In any case, does anyone have any info on who is funding this mosque? Is it Saudi-financed and therefore has a Wahabi extremist bend or what?

***UPDATE

OK, i watched the rest and they claim that the mosque is being built by extremist groups with ties to Al Qaeda and is being funded by Middle East sources, most likely Saudi...so these concerns are totally valid in my eyes. But again, it is the job of the British police to monitor this mosque and make sure there is no incitement, which for years they turned a blind eye to.

By the way, it seems this video is quite old as they refer to Red Ken Livingston as being major of London, when he lost the last mayoral race.

[Sanket]

The Muslims are there because the British gov't wanted them there. You and Newsguy have got to stop blaming this stuff on Muslims.

In Britain, the main parties are left and radical left and both favor multiculturalism, so again, your beef cannot and should not be with Muslims, but with the main parties - which are British.

Most terrorism in Central Asia has been tracked back to members of Hizbut Tahrir. It is a banned organization in several of these Islamic nations. Yet, it is head quartered in UK - it is nurtured by the UK.

Brits don't have a Right to complain about Muslim Extremism.

[maven]

What the hell do you define as "ethnic cleansing"? Do you even realize that many British Muslims are also born in Britain?If a government pursues a policy of trying to settle people of the same religion in the same area on the philosophical grounds that in multiculturalism families and people of the same ethnicity prefer to live together, and if you then deliberatly stop housing white people in those boroughs you end up with the remaining whites being driven out by Muslim gangs. You seem incapable of understanding the meaning of any thread but only able to pick through things like a lawyer.

[maven]

This is such nonsense. Ethnic cleansing? Be serious. The Muslims are there because the British gov't wanted them there. You and Newsguy have got to stop blaming this stuff on Muslims.

In Britain, the main parties are left and radical left and both favor multiculturalism, so again, your beef cannot and should not be with Muslims, but with the main parties - which are British.come on guy, where did I blame it on Muslims? I said it is the white liberal elites who don't even live in these places who are behind it.

[maven]

Whether or not a new building is created as a mosque, there will still be mosques. And if Muslims are forbidden to create them, they'll meet in strip malls or their homes. This is all about appearances.Nobody is complaining about Mosques there are thousands in Britain, you never read the thread which is about a megamosque on a large site with training facilities constructed for an Islamist radical sect.

[maven]

OK, i watched the first minute of the video and I see it is from the racist and Jew hating BNP. Bravo.

In any case, does anyone have any info on who is funding this mosque? Is it Saudi-financed and therefore has a Wahabi extremist bend or what?

***UPDATE

OK, i watched the rest and they claim that the mosque is being built by extremist groups with ties to Al Qaeda and is being funded by Middle East sources, most likely Saudi...so these concerns are totally valid in my eyes. But again, it is the job of the British police to monitor this mosque and make sure there is no incitement, which for years they turned a blind eye to.

By the way, it seems this video is quite old as they refer to Red Ken Livingston as being major of London, when he lost the last mayoral race.Fistly the British are not Zenophobic thats a racist remark. The British are so accomodating that they are giving their country away.
Secondly the BNP is a reforming party and I and others are encouraging the reforms. There is still a good way to go but things are moving. The leader went from being a Holocaust denyer to acknowledging the Holocaust and supporting Israel during cast lead which no other politician in the UK would have dared to do becaue it was a decision unpopular with everyone as most people in the UK support the Palestinians apart from some secular and practically all religious Jews apart from the Haredim. You don't know what you are taking about Yala as usual.
You ask who is funding the mosque but if you had listened to the video you would know.

[andak01]

Sure, former Holocaust denier. That's who you want leading the country. A party with a history of beating people up. What do these things have in common?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H8-lu7QX5Y

BNP member Steve Barkham told reporter Jason Gwynne how he kicked and punched a man during the 2001 Bradford riots.
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Another member, Stewart Williams, says he wants to "blow up" Bradford's mosques with a rocket launcher.
...

BNP council candidate Dave Midgley is shown saying he squirted dog faeces through the letterbox of an Asian takeaway.

In the film, Mr Barkham says he beat an Asian man during the Bradford riots.
But, he says, he was not prosecuted as his victim was unable to identify him from police photographs.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3894529.stm

That's what you call reform??

[NewsGuy]

This is such nonsense. Ethnic cleansing? Be serious. The Muslims are there because the British gov't wanted them there. You and Newsguy have got to stop blaming this stuff on Muslims.

In Britain, the main parties are left and radical left and both favor multiculturalism, so again, your beef cannot and should not be with Muslims, but with the main parties - which are British.
I don't buy the idea that the Left is using the Muslims as puppets and that otherwise the Muslims would be so tolerant towards other religions and towards Israel. I think that both the Leftists and the Muslims are fascist in nature and both are anti-Semitic, but it's not a case of one group using another to advance their agenda.

In the case of the mega mosque, it stands to reason that many people are very concerned. Mosques in London have been used for terrorist recruitment and incitement, and many members of the Muslim community are radicalized Jihadists, not to mention that some of them have blown up parts of the city.

There's good reason for concern.

[maven]

Sure, former Holocaust denier. That's who you want leading the country. A party with a history of beating people up. What do these things have in common?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H8-lu7QX5Y

BNP member Steve Barkham told reporter Jason Gwynne how he kicked and punched a man during the 2001 Bradford riots.
...
Another member, Stewart Williams, says he wants to "blow up" Bradford's mosques with a rocket launcher.
...

BNP council candidate Dave Midgley is shown saying he squirted dog faeces through the letterbox of an Asian takeaway.

In the film, Mr Barkham says he beat an Asian man during the Bradford riots.
But, he says, he was not prosecuted as his victim was unable to identify him from police photographs.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3894529.stm

That's what you call reform??It's pre-reform, what would you expect from a former far-right party? You can google any amount of old stuff.

But things are getting better all the time as people are growing up and finding that they have a real place in the political system and an opportunity to challenge the elites. Slow but hopefully sure.

We want to prevent you guys from fulfilling your founder's order to conquer the world; well Britain anyway and for me Israel also.

The Islamists are having a very good run with the help of the liberal uberelites but Britains are now waking up and I am personally very pleased to see the English defence League in the other vid I posted on the EU-UK forum holding Israeli flags when some of the kids there were so angry that they had been into things like nazism in their bedrooms. Those kids by being exposed to some political education now realise that nazism is the friend of Islamism and no friend of theirs.

The tide is turning andak, I'm sorry but your Deen is about to be dented.

If our revolution in the UK is successful it will spread right across Europe and provide in some part an alternative to Palintology as the current Republican loser philosophy in the US which is unable to challenge Obamas import of Euro multiculturalism to the land of the brave and the home of the free; Example: calling terrorism 'anti-Islamic activity.

Of course it is not just about Islamism and mass immigration but the sovereigity of nations and other issues.

[Sanket]

Mosques in London have been used for terrorist recruitment and incitement, and many members of the Muslim community are radicalized Jihadists

http://www.hizbuttahrir.org/ is operated from U.K. It is the most dangerous fundamentalist organization & attracts well educated persons. Why are they not banning this group ?

FYI: This group is also banned in some Islamic Countries. I think even Pakistan has banned this group & many members are British-Pakistanis.

[maven]

http://www.hizbuttahrir.org/ is operated from U.K. It is the most dangerous fundamentalist organization & attracts well educated persons. Why are they not banning this group ?

Why did they insist that exports from Israel should be sourced as being Jewish or Arab? Why did they support Goldstone? Why was a warrant for Tzip Livni isssued? Why do they call anti-Semitic attacks by Muslims on Synagogues and Jewish schools 'inter-communal violence'? Why do they never stand with the US in the UN in supporting Israel? Why did they ban Geert Wilders yet allow any number of Jihadi preachers in to address islamic conferences? Why is a meeting hall for Newham councellors bedecked with Palestinian flags? and on and on.

[andak01]

I don't buy the idea that the Left is using the Muslims as puppets and that otherwise the Muslims would be so tolerant towards other religions and towards Israel.

Fact is that both the left AND the right are using the Muslims as pawns.


I think that both the Leftists and the Muslims are fascist in nature and both are anti-Semitic, but it's not a case of one group using another to advance their agenda.

Choose another word. Facism is a right-wing movement, not a left-wing movement.


In the case of the mega mosque, it stands to reason that many people are very concerned. Mosques in London have been used for terrorist recruitment and incitement, and many members of the Muslim community are radicalized Jihadists, not to mention that some of them have blown up parts of the city.

A mosque is a building. Why not focus on people who incite and not on buildings and those who don't? If people are radical jihadis, then arrest them. If someone goes to blow up buildings there are laws and police and security measures, some of which were put in place during the IRA era.

[andak01]

But things are getting better all the time as people are growing up and finding that they have a real place in the political system and an opportunity to challenge the elites. Slow but hopefully sure.

Gosh, I'm getting all misty eyed just thinking about it. Reminds me of how David Duke reformed before he ran for governor. Oh yeah, that's right, he just pretended to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KjJ0mMB3uA&feature=PlayList&p=A9D2FF708AC9DB9F&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=18

[Yala]

I don't buy the idea that the Left is using the Muslims as puppets and that otherwise the Muslims would be so tolerant towards other religions and towards Israel. I think that both the Leftists and the Muslims are fascist in nature and both are anti-Semitic, but it's not a case of one group using another to advance their agenda.

The radical left are using the radical Muslims to further their agenda, and radical Muslims are using the West's democracy to further their agenda.


In the case of the mega mosque, it stands to reason that many people are very concerned. Mosques in London have been used for terrorist recruitment and incitement, and many members of the Muslim community are radicalized Jihadists, not to mention that some of them have blown up parts of the city.

There's good reason for concern.

Well now that I understand that this mosque is financed by the Saudis and has ties to an extremist organization linked to Al Qaeda, I understand the concern. I'm sure it will still be built.

[Yala]

Fistly the British are not Zenophobic thats a racist remark. The British are so accomodating that they are giving their country away.
Secondly the BNP is a reforming party and I and others are encouraging the reforms. There is still a good way to go but things are moving. The leader went from being a Holocaust denyer to acknowledging the Holocaust and supporting Israel during cast lead which no other politician in the UK would have dared to do becaue it was a decision unpopular with everyone as most people in the UK support the Palestinians apart from some secular and practically all religious Jews apart from the Haredim. You don't know what you are taking about Yala as usual.


European society in general, and British in particular, are openly xenophobic. It's interesting how you are living in such denial, so much so that you are a Jewish supporter of a Holocaust denier. How can you look at yourself in the mirror?

[Yala]

http://www.hizbuttahrir.org/ is operated from U.K. It is the most dangerous fundamentalist organization & attracts well educated persons. Why are they not banning this group ?

FYI: This group is also banned in some Islamic Countries. I think even Pakistan has banned this group & many members are British-Pakistanis.

You're right, this is a very radical group that is flourishing in the UK and the British people and gov't are to blame, no question.

[andak01]

Whether or not a mosque is radical isn't dependant upon where its money comes from or whether it sits in a fancy building or in someone's home, but in the makeup of the employees and the congregation. The government and non-Muslim people of UK should be focusing on recognizing and promoting moderate groups while putting every obstacle in front of radicals. Radicals are people, not buildings or money.

[maven]

European society in general, and British in particular, are openly xenophobic. It's interesting how you are living in such denial, so much so that you are a Jewish supporter of a Holocaust denier. How can you look at yourself in the mirror?Yala you are an ignorant loudmouth. You don't know what you are talking about, I am on the ground dealing with the case on behalf of Jews and Israel. The party in question is reforming and I am trying to pressure that reform. If you want to support the other side fair enough but do it on your own thread, stop snapping around my heels like a nasty little dog.

[andak01]

I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that there are only two sides and that anyone who doesn't agree is your mortal enemy. That's extremism. One of the things I most admire about the Jews is that they have involved themselves in every side of every argument. So there are Bush Jews and Obama Jews and Jews to the right of Bush and those to the left of Obama.

And I think there are Jews today who define themselves by their hatred of Muslims. So much so, that they are willing to overlook Nazi connections in their chosen politicians. That's sad- every bit as sad as Muslims who are ignorant enough to define themselves by their hatred of Jews.

[maven]

Whether or not a mosque is radical isn't dependant upon where its money comes from or whether it sits in a fancy building or in someone's home, but in the makeup of the employees and the congregation. The government and non-Muslim people of UK should be focusing on recognizing and promoting moderate groups while putting every obstacle in front of radicals. Radicals are people, not buildings or money.Firstly andak my dear I firmly advise you to move to the UK and try to promote moderate Islam, there are so few Muslims doing it here.

It's ignorant, racist uberliberals like Yala who have created the problems for Muslims in the UK. Until the growth of multiculturalism Muslims were integrating very well and my best friend was a Muslim whose parents were from Pakistan.

But things took a nasty turn when multicultural and interfaith funding grew and many millions in Saudi wahhabi money began pouring into the mosques at the end of the 1980s along with hate versions of the Koran, British Islam went from being more secular oriented to radical Sunni. The government are not promoting moderate groups but the ones who shout the loudest.

In fact there are only a handful of moderate Muslim groups in the UK anyway; the Quillem foundation and seculardemocracy.org being two. the tiny Sh'ia population do not matter because the Sunnis largely consider them to be kuffars and as most Muslims are from Pakistan they have imported a cultural though not physical hostility between Sunni and Sufi. The real moderate Muslims these days are Sufis but they are a minority.

The BBC and SKY refused to cover an event in Picadilly circus by seculardemocrcy.org because it might upset Muslims and this group is considered along with a reforming BNP to be fascist troublemakers (anyone who opposes multiculturalism is labelled a fascist):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwy1W0IvnMg
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[NewsGuy]

Fact is that both the left AND the right are using the Muslims as pawns.
More like ideological allies.


Choose another word. Facism is a right-wing movement, not a left-wing movement.
By definition, Communism and Fascism are on different ends of the spectrum. In practical terms, though, there is little difference between the two. I often see the expression "fascist left," and with good reason.


A mosque is a building. Why not focus on people who incite and not on buildings and those who don't? If people are radical jihadis, then arrest them. If someone goes to blow up buildings there are laws and police and security measures, some of which were put in place during the IRA era.
It's not just another building. Mosques have been used as a gathering place for Jihadists and hate mongers, not to mention a symbol of global terrorism and even a weapons storage facility at times.

But you do make a valid point about the need to arrest the Jihadists and apply the law to what is done and said in mosques and other Muslim community centers.

Instead, often in the West, we confuse religious freedom with what's going on in mosques, and that leads to lack of proper law enforcement. We also have a problem with the Left protecting Muslim hate speech, using freedom of speech laws that are routinely abused by many groups, including Muslim terrorism supporters.

[maven]

This is an example of a group, paid for by UK taxpayers under multicultural funding:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJkhiYOm0Bk


Shabbat Shalom.
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[Yala]

Whether or not a mosque is radical isn't dependant upon where its money comes from or whether it sits in a fancy building or in someone's home

Not true. Nothing in life is for free. If the Saudi Wahabis are giving money for the mosque, there's a reason, and the reason is to spread their radical ideology.


The government and non-Muslim people of UK should be focusing on recognizing and promoting moderate groups while putting every obstacle in front of radicals.

No disagreement here.

[Yala]

Yala you are an ignorant loudmouth.
:rofl:
I'd rather be an ignorant loudmouth than support a Holocaust denier.


You don't know what you are talking about, I am on the ground dealing with the case on behalf of Jews and Israel.

Well seeing how pro-Israel Britain is, it looks like you're doing a great job!!!


The party in question is reforming and I am trying to pressure that reform.

As Obama said "you can put lipstick on a pig but at the end of the day, it's still a pig"


If you want to support the other side fair enough but do it on your own thread, stop snapping around my heels like a nasty little dog.

Just like in my own country, I don't support any parties, just ideas. You are so clueless that you think I support multiculturalism...Both of the "sides" in Britain suck.

[Yala]

Anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial

The BNP, its former leaders and present leader, Nick Griffin, have promoted anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial in the past. In 1996, writing in his own publication, The Rune, Griffin stated that:


I am well aware that orthodox opinion is that six million Jews were gassed and cremated or turned into soup and lampshades. I have reached the conclusion that the 'extermination' tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter witch-hysteria.[40]

The following year he stated:


There is no doubt that hundreds, probably thousands of Jews were shot to death in Eastern Europe, because they were rightly or wrongly seen as communists or potential partisan supporters. That was awful. But this nonsense about gas chambers is exposed as a total lie.[41]



In 2006, the party's deputy chairman Scott McLean[44] was filmed making Hitler salutes at a white supremacist cross-burning ceremony where racist songs were sung and jokes made about Auschwitz.[45]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party#Anti-Semitism_and_Holocaust_denial

Only in an openly xenophobic and racist society could a party like this operate, function and flourish.

Jews who support these morons make my stomach turn. Rather then leave to a more welcoming country or stay and fight this nonsense, they join ranks with former and current Nazis and white supremacists.

[andak01]

It's not just another building. Mosques have been used as a gathering place for Jihadists and hate mongers, not to mention a symbol of global terrorism and even a weapons storage facility at times.

If someone is using a mosque to store weapons, they are breaking a law that would also be broken if they created a weapons cache anywhere else. The fact that the Branch Dravidians were Christian didn't keep them safe. A private weapons cache in any building is a danger to national security.


But you do make a valid point about the need to arrest the Jihadists and apply the law to what is done and said in mosques and other Muslim community centers.

Yes, just as we would arrest a Christian Identity member or a Branch Dravidian or a Mormon for planning attacks on the government.


Instead, often in the West, we confuse religious freedom with what's going on in mosques, and that leads to lack of proper law enforcement. We also have a problem with the Left protecting Muslim hate speech, using freedom of speech laws that are routinely abused by many groups, including Muslim terrorism supporters.

Thankfully, I don't attend a radical mosque, nor is any mosque that I've ever visited radical. I recognize that UK mosques tend to be more radical than those in America, but if they were as bad as you imply, I'd expect a permanent mushroom cloud over Britain.

[NewsGuy]

If someone is using a mosque to store weapons, they are breaking a law that would also be broken if they created a weapons cache anywhere else. The fact that the Branch Dravidians were Christian didn't keep them safe. A private weapons cache in any building is a danger to national security.
Mosques are used routinely for storing weapons, planning terrorism, incitement to terrorism, recruitment of terrorists and, of course, the usual weekly spreading of racism and hatred. For this reasons, many people -- especially victims or intended victims of Muslim terrorism -- don't believe that mosques should receive the same legal protections as other religions' houses of worship.

You're correct that such behavior is a threat to national security. I agree with this part of your post.


Thankfully, I don't attend a radical mosque, nor is any mosque that I've ever visited radical. I recognize that UK mosques tend to be more radical than those in America, but if they were as bad as you imply, I'd expect a permanent mushroom cloud over Britain.
I would also expect a much more serious response to what goes on in mosques in the UK and all over the world actually. But in places like Europe and even in the US, our politicians put their desire to stay in office above national security.

I don't really believe that there are mosques who don't teach the fundamental elements of the Quran which call for armed Jihad against infidels and hold up as a shining example of Islam using a deceptive peace agreement with Jews and then committing genocide. Has your mosque abandoned the Quran?

[andak01]

For this reasons, many people -- especially victims or intended victims of Muslim terrorism -- don't believe that mosques should receive the same legal protections as other religions' houses of worship.

So, let me get this straight. Because A mosque can be used as a weapons depot, ALL mosques should be denied the Constitutional rights enjoyed by other religious houses of worship??? That's preemptive, unconstitutional and biased beyond belief.


You're correct that such behavior is a threat to national security. I agree with this part of your post.

Why is that so? Because there is a weapons depot or because it's Muslims? Wouldn't a private weapons depot anywhere established by any non-government group constitute the same threat? Isn't such a thing already against the law? I'm not aware of any legal protection either in America or in the UK that enables any group to establish a weapons cache. Perhaps you could enlighten us.


I would also expect a much more serious response to what goes on in mosques in the UK and all over the world actually.

More serious than what? People risking their lives and dying to prevent terrorism? Billions upon billions of dollars spent worldwide? It's a real slap in the face to Interpol and various security agencies around the world to see you remark as if nothing is being down.



I don't really believe that there are mosques who don't teach the fundamental elements of the Quran which call for armed Jihad against infidels and hold up as a shining example of Islam using a deceptive peace agreement with Jews and then committing genocide. Has your mosque abandoned the Quran?

NO. My mosque hasn't abandoned it at all, it adheres to it's message of peace when faced with tolerance and acceptance and war when faced with ethnic cleansing just like your own religion. If somebody attacks Israel with the intent of destroying the Jews, it's the Samson Option. During the historic era that the Prophet of Islam lived in, the survival of Islam was endangered. It is not endangered today and Bin Laden's interpretation that it is is a lie. Muslims enjoy a great deal of tolerance in the West. People like yourself that want us to be named an illegal cult are really a fringe group. I was going to say ...even among Jews, but I'll go so far as to say particularly among Jews. To be clear, Jews are more aware than most what happens to a society that gives itself over to ostracizing a group because of their religion and they are some of the most active in interfaith efforts with Muslims. Witness for example, the family of Daniel Pearl.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

My mosque just choses not to adhere to your preferred interpretation, that of Bin Laden. I'm sure if you succeed in outlawing Islam you could get a couple more to come over to your side.

[Cellis]

I wanna build SUPER MEGA GIANT ATHEIST CENTRE IN SAUDI ARABIA!! Will they let me do it? From now on I will support BNP.

[andak01]

I wanna build SUPER MEGA GIANT ATHEIST CENTRE IN SAUDI ARABIA!! Will they let me do it? From now on I will support BNP.

I want to build a mosque in the Vatican. Will they let me do it? No, because even when the Papal authority extended to a greater area, it was still a theocracy. A house of worship isn't a threat in a secular state in a way that it can be in a theocracy. That's why I support secularism. Don't expect an Islamic theocracy to work any differently than other theocracies have throughout history. When there have been other theocracies, intolerance was just as much a factor.

[bararallu]

Its funny though, there has never been a "secular" Arab regime that burned down every synagogue in their invading path... or have there.

[NewsGuy]

So, let me get this straight. Because A mosque can be used as a weapons depot, ALL mosques should be denied the Constitutional rights enjoyed by other religious houses of worship??? That's preemptive, unconstitutional and biased beyond belief.
Allow me to repeat: Mosques are used routinely for storing weapons, planning terrorism, incitement to terrorism, recruitment of terrorists and, of course, the usual weekly spreading of racism and hatred. For this reasons, many people -- especially victims or intended victims of Muslim terrorism -- don't believe that mosques should receive the same legal protections as other religions' houses of worship.


Why is that so? Because there is a weapons depot or because it's Muslims? Wouldn't a private weapons depot anywhere established by any non-government group constitute the same threat? Isn't such a thing already against the law? I'm not aware of any legal protection either in America or in the UK that enables any group to establish a weapons cache. Perhaps you could enlighten us.
Hopefully you can find enlightenment all by yourself as I repeat: Mosques are used routinely for storing weapons, planning terrorism, incitement to terrorism, recruitment of terrorists and, of course, the usual weekly spreading of racism and hatred. For this reasons, many people -- especially victims or intended victims of Muslim terrorism -- don't believe that mosques should receive the same legal protections as other religions' houses of worship.


More serious than what? People risking their lives and dying to prevent terrorism? Billions upon billions of dollars spent worldwide? It's a real slap in the face to Interpol and various security agencies around the world to see you remark as if nothing is being down.
Western governments have foolishly dumped billions and billions of dollars into construction projects in the Muslim world and trying to lift Afghani and Iraqi tribesmen out of the dark ages and into modern living. Of course that was a waste of money that did nothing to fight terrorism. So, no, we did not invest billions of dollars to fight terrorism, we squandered it on worthless nation-building in corrupt, primitive Muslim societies.



NO. My mosque hasn't abandoned it at all, it adheres to it's message of peace when faced with tolerance and acceptance and war when faced with ethnic cleansing just like your own religion. If somebody attacks Israel with the intent of destroying the Jews, it's the Samson Option. During the historic era that the Prophet of Islam lived in, the survival of Islam was endangered. It is not endangered today and Bin Laden's interpretation that it is is a lie. Muslims enjoy a great deal of tolerance in the West. People like yourself that want us to be named an illegal cult are really a fringe group. I was going to say ...even among Jews, but I'll go so far as to say particularly among Jews. To be clear, Jews are more aware than most what happens to a society that gives itself over to ostracizing a group because of their religion and they are some of the most active in interfaith efforts with Muslims. Witness for example, the family of Daniel Pearl.
There's no comparison between other religions and Islam when it comes to the existential threat that radical (and so-called moderate) Islam poses to the world.

The family of Daniel Perl is just an example of the Jihadi savages that are greatly admired throughout the Muslim world. Their gruesome murder of a Jew is considered a shining example in the Muslim world.

But the bigger picture is that you, much like the vast majority of the American and European Muslim community, prefers to spend your time denying the obvious terrorism threat that Muslim communities pose. That's why the problem never goes away. You simply bend over backwards to deny that the problem exists, and you shirk your responsibility to fix the problem. Not just you personally, but the vast majority of the American Muslim community, which is pumping out one terrorist after another without any real action taken by the communities who are responsible for this problem.


My mosque just choses not to adhere to your preferred interpretation, that of Bin Laden. I'm sure if you succeed in outlawing Islam you could get a couple more to come over to your side.
I have absolutely no doubt that no one in your "peaceful" mosque has ever marched against Palestinian terrorism as suicide bombings blew up buses in Tel Aviv and rockets were deliberately fired into Israeli population centers from Gaza.

Yes, I'm sure that the necessary lip service and photo ops took place whereby there was some partial condemnation of the 9/11 terror. But that's just when the Muslims fear reprisals from the larger American community, or when they feel some heat from the FBI. Other than that, what real action to stop Muslim terrorism has been taken in your peaceful mosque?

[andak01]

Allow me to repeat: Mosques are used routinely for storing weapons, planning terrorism, incitement to terrorism, recruitment of terrorists and, of course, the usual weekly spreading of racism and hatred.

You can repeat it all you want. A lie repeated enough times becomes the truth. But routinely implies that is the most common use of mosques and that is a lie. What might be the truth in Gaza does not hold true in America or Morocco or in most other places.


For this reasons, many people -- especially victims or intended victims of Muslim terrorism -- don't believe that mosques should receive the same legal protections as other religions' houses of worship.

Well I'm as much of an intended victim as you are. Anyone willing to enter a mosque and shoot Muslims who don't take up jihad would kill me as soon as you. So don't speak for me about what I think and what other Americans think.


Western governments have foolishly dumped billions and billions of dollars into construction projects in the Muslim world and trying to lift Afghani and Iraqi tribesmen out of the dark ages and into modern living. Of course that was a waste of money that did nothing to fight terrorism.

It costs a lot more billions to drop bombs and develop improved drone planes than it does to put up a school.


So, no, we did not invest billions of dollars to fight terrorism, we squandered it on worthless nation-building in corrupt, primitive Muslim societies.

What a total, blatant lie! How can you say something like that??? So Interpol, the FBI, the CIA, Mossad, MI-5, etc. their budgets are consumed with nationbuilding in Iraq and Afghanistan??? The thousands of soldiers who have given their lives are what???


There's no comparison between other religions and Islam when it comes to the existential threat that radical (and so-called moderate) Islam poses to the world.

Glad you've taken off the gloves there and stopped pretending to have any tolerance for any of us.


The family of Daniel Perl is just an example of the Jihadi savages that are greatly admired throughout the Muslim world. Their gruesome murder of a Jew is considered a shining example in the Muslim world.

Why did Pakistani Muslims assist in the apprehension and arrest of the murderers? Why were the murderers sentenced to death in a Muslim court in Pakistan??? Why have Muslims come forth and publically condemned that murder? Why does the Pearl family have anything more to do with Muslims?


You simply bend over backwards to deny that the problem exists, and you shirk your responsibility to fix the problem.

I don't deny that a problem exists. But I can't solve a problem that the combined premier intelligence forces and militaries of the world with the help of Muslim interpreters and informants can't solve. You've got some idea that if you tore down all the mosques that terrorism would disappear, or does it require forced conversions as well?


Not just you personally, but the vast majority of the American Muslim community, which is pumping out one terrorist after another without any real action taken by the communities who are responsible for this problem.

There are between five and seven million Muslims in America. How many terrorists do you have evidence that we "pumped out" last year? 20?


I have absolutely no doubt that no one in your "peaceful" mosque has ever marched against Palestinian terrorism as suicide bombings blew up buses in Tel Aviv and rockets were deliberately fired into Israeli population centers from Gaza.

You're right. And neither has my local Baptist church or my local cathedral or my local Mormon temple. I haven't seen any Catholics stop saying mass in order to protest pedophilia. It just doesn't work that way. However, I have heard Palestinian terrorism condemned along with all other terrorism by Muslims both in my mosque and out of it. The North American fatwa confirms that. Sheik Tantawis statements confirm that. The Saudi anti-terrorism fatwa confirms that. Numerous condemnations by Muslim groups confirm that.



Yes, I'm sure that the necessary lip service and photo ops took place whereby there was some partial condemnation of the 9/11 terror. But that's just when the Muslims fear reprisals from the larger American community, or when they feel some heat from the FBI. Other than that, what real action to stop Muslim terrorism has been taken in your peaceful mosque?

What you say would be true IF every mosque had a big monthly newletter detailing where the next bombing would be and who was needed. But in real life terrorists are recruited in secret and secluded from everyone else, including their parents and including their community. So you can't just walk in a mosque and see whose involved and who isn't. Often their own parents can't tell. People are as likely to be recruited in an appartment complex or a coffee shop as a mosque.

[NewsGuy]

You can repeat it all you want. A lie repeated enough times becomes the truth. But routinely implies that is the most common use of mosques and that is a lie. What might be the truth in Gaza does not hold true in America or Morocco or in most other places.
Actually, anyone scrolling up to see your comments will see that it's you who is lying and being deceptive about this whole topic, because you are defending Islam's connection to terrorism, which is indefensible.

Sometimes you try to say that Islam is no different in this regard than other religions (which is a lie of course), and sometimes you try to say that it's America's fault for randomly "dropping bombs" on the poor innocent Muslims of the world, and sometimes you try to deny altogether that mosques are used for terrorism, weapons storage, and general incitement and hatred. That's is another lie of yours, since virtually every mosque preaches scriptures that spread hatred that ultimately causes support for terrorism, as is evident from polls taken in the Muslim community.


I don't deny that a problem exists. But I can't solve a problem that the combined premier intelligence forces and militaries of the world with the help of Muslim interpreters and informants can't solve. You've got some idea that if you tore down all the mosques that terrorism would disappear, or does it require forced conversions as well?
You do deny that a problem exists. You deny it all the time, and try to shift the blame to others.

Look at all the time you spend defending the indefensible. How much time do you spend trying to fix the problem of support for terrorism in the Muslim community?


There are between five and seven million Muslims in America. How many terrorists do you have evidence that we "pumped out" last year? 20?
Actually, not only do we keep on seeing one Muslim-American terror plot after another being discovered, but we also have to wonder how many exists that have not yet been discovered? How many sleepers from al Qaeda, Hizbullah and Iran are just waiting to go into action? We don't know exactly, but it's certainly reasonable to wonder. But, what we do know, is according to polls taken in the Muslim community right here in America, 1 out of 3 or 4 young Muslims supports suicide bombings, so that could amount to millions according to your own numbers. And the percentage is much higher in the UK.

Instead of telling lies about how few Muslim terrorists there are, maybe ask why 1/3 -1/4 of young American-Muslims support suicide bombings in your own community.

No wonder people like me and apparently many others around the world associate mosques with potential terrorism... And, you're right that you too should be deeply concerned because you too are a potential victim of this phenomenon.

[Sanket]

Actually, anyone scrolling up to see your comments will see that it's you who is lying and being deceptive about this whole topic, because you are defending Islam's connection to terrorism, which is indefensible.......

How many times are you going to repeat that before warning/banning him ?


I have added him in my ignore list.

[andak01]

Actually, anyone scrolling up to see your comments will see that it's you who is lying and being deceptive about this whole topic, because you are defending Islam's connection to terrorism, which is indefensible.

Defending??? I'm merely commenting. Stating that murder existed prior to Islam is not a defense of murder. I've pointed this out previously in the face of your libel.


Sometimes you try to say that Islam is no different in this regard than other religions (which is a lie of course),

For which I have provided a multitude of examples, any one of which would have sufficed.


... and sometimes you try to say that it's America's fault for randomly "dropping bombs" on the poor innocent Muslims of the world,


Quote me there. I'd like to see what you're basing that on.


...and sometimes you try to deny altogether that mosques are used for terrorism, weapons storage, and general incitement and hatred.

Again, provide a single quote where I've stated that mosques are NEVER used for the above. I simply never said such a thing.


That's is another lie of yours, since virtually every mosque preaches scriptures that spread hatred that ultimately causes support for terrorism, as is evident from polls taken in the Muslim community.

And every church preaches scripture that were used by the Branch Dravidians and Charles Manson and the LRA to produce terrorism. The Quran is also the scripture of choice among Muslims that inform on terrorists, fight in the military against them, work in police forces, etc.



You do deny that a problem exists. You deny it all the time, and try to shift the blame to others.

Then quote me denying that there is any problem with terrorism. Since I do it all the time, you should have an easy task. And I'm still waiting for you to prove any of your previous accusations. You can't.


Look at all the time you spend defending the indefensible. How much time do you spend trying to fix the problem of support for terrorism in the Muslim community?

Why is pointing out that terrorism has a long history any defense of it??? Murder and rape also have a long history. If I mentioned such a thing would I be defending them? This defense is in your own head.



Actually, not only do we keep on seeing one Muslim-American terror plot after another being discovered, but we also have to wonder how many exists that have not yet been discovered?

How convenient.


How many sleepers from al Qaeda, Hizbullah and Iran are just waiting to go into action? We don't know exactly, but it's certainly reasonable to wonder.

What do you think? 150% of us? 200%?


But, what we do know, is according to polls taken in the Muslim community right here in America, 1 out of 3 or 4 young Muslims supports suicide bombings, so that could amount to millions according to your own numbers. And the percentage is much higher in the UK.

Sorry to disappoint your enthusiasm, but the numbers are dropping worldwide. I base this on more up to date versions of the Pew polls.


No wonder people like me and apparently many others around the world associate mosques with potential terrorism... And, you're right that you too should be deeply concerned because you too are a potential victim of this phenomenon.

I am deeply concerned, but not to the point that I'm going to go vigilante.

[NewsGuy]

How many times are you going to repeat that before warning/banning him ?


I have added him in my ignore list.
Overall, andak is a good guy who really believes in his cause. He's just repeating his party line whether or not it's true and anyone's welcome to call him on it. But andak's not malicious.

I also think that he wishes that his new religion would somehow eliminate terrorism and religious hatred from its repertoire so he can go about his life more peacefully and not be viewed with suspicion when he shows up dressed in traditional Islamic garb. But that's just my speculation.

I think that Muslims like andak could be part of the solution if they can overcome the cultural barriers within the Muslim community.

[NewsGuy]

What do you think? 150% of us? 200%?
Heh... ;)

I'll give you the last word on this. At least for now.

[andak01]

Overall, andak is a good guy who really believes in his cause. He's just repeating his party line whether or not it's true and anyone's welcome to call him on it. But andak's not malicious.

Shalom. You and I have known each other for a number of years. You know that I am not a malicious guy and I know that you do and say what you think is right. But this is not a black and white issue. You get tremendous political benefit (temporarily?) by portraying it that way, but it isn't. Those areas that are black and white (terrorism is wrong, stopping it is right), we agree on, though our method of solution may differ. I don't think being forced to accept the status of an illegal cult of evil is a solution. That path allows no possibility for integration at all. And I think Muslims should integrate, in the best possible sense of that word.

It isn't the case that the more mosques there are, the more terrorism there is going to be. It requires recruiters who can do that anywhere and probably don't do it in any public or obvious way.

BTW, if I'm repeating the party line, then why do people here constantly claim that I don't represent Islam? Both of those things can't be true.


I also think that he wishes that his new religion would somehow eliminate terrorism and religious hatred from its repertoire so he can go about his life more peacefully and not be viewed with suspicion when he shows up dressed in traditional Islamic garb. But that's just my speculation.

First off, it's over a decade since my conversion. In my opinion, that's more than a little time. I've had time to discover whatever I should and certainly on this forum, I've been exposed to every percieved negative conceivable. I've visited mosques in several countries, but not in UK or Pakistan or Gaza or in any of the most radicalized areas of the world. But I have met Muslims from all those places.

Traditional Islamic garb doesn't have a lot of traction with me. That's not how I express my religion, although I tend to dress modestly.


I think that Muslims like andak could be part of the solution if they can overcome the cultural barriers within the Muslim community.

I'm already halfway there! Being an American born Muslim is a great perspective to identify and avoid cultural excesses.

[Sanket]

I also think that he wishes that his new religion would somehow eliminate terrorism and religious hatred from its repertoire so he can go about his life more peacefully and not be viewed with suspicion when he shows up dressed in traditional Islamic garb. But that's just my speculation.

:rolleyes:


Are we talking about the same person....:scratch:

[andak01]

I also think that he wishes that his new religion would somehow eliminate terrorism and religious hatred from its repertoire so he can go about his life more peacefully and not be viewed with suspicion when he shows up dressed in traditional Islamic garb. But that's just my speculation.

It is my belief and that of many other Muslims that the religion itself is not the cause. Rather it is misinterpretations of the scripture and potent politics that has misled many Muslims. This isn't about garb, this is about my children being raised in the open and diverse society that the Constitution promises them and that they know and appreciate the superiority of that system over an intolerant theocracy. They should also be aware of the struggle involved to create this secular system and how much vigilance it takes to maintain in the face of many threats. Certainly there are those who wish to undermine secularism in the service of radical Islam. But there are also those who wish to permanently gut the Constitution in the name of security or even faith based politics.

[pagan]

I want to build a mosque in the Vatican. Will they let me do it? No, because even when the Papal authority extended to a greater area, it was still a theocracy. A house of worship isn't a threat in a secular state in a way that it can be in a theocracy. That's why I support secularism. Don't expect an Islamic theocracy to work any differently than other theocracies have throughout history. When there have been other theocracies, intolerance was just as much a factor.
Do you know what is secularism ? Is Islam secular ?

[andak01]

Do you know what is secularism ? Is Islam secular ?

No it's not. But neither is Christianity. I'd suggest you read the history of the Protestant Reformation and the centuries it took to suppress the powers of the Pope to within the walls of the Vatican. Even after the Reformation, the Protestants peeled off and started their own theocracies in the New World. Witches were stoned and Indians were forced to convert, etc. Even today with the Constitution in place, there are small terrorist groups like Christian Identity that would like to take over government if given the chance. The Branch Dravidians were a Christian based cult that armed themselves and essentially created a state within a state. The Lord's Resistance Army wish to create a Bible based theocracy in the Congo. The National Liberation Front of Tripura in India want to create a Christian theocratic state.

So yes, I am aware what secularism is. And I'm under no illusion that it is guaranteed simply because someone put a Constitution in place. Theocracy was the ONLY form of government for thousands of years condoned by Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Zoroastrians.

[Mediocrates]

What difference does the size of the building make? There are more than a hundred Protestant churches w/in a 3 mile radius of my house. If they all got together and made one huge football stadium church, I should be alarmed?

[andak01]

What difference does the size of the building make? There are more than a hundred Protestant churches w/in a 3 mile radius of my house. If they all got together and made one huge football stadium church, I should be alarmed?

Of course not because they are Christians. When did a bunch of Christians ever harm a Jew?

[Mediocrates]

If I worried about that I'd hide in a cave.