My letter to the President (and others)... A Palestine in the Sinai

[MGB8]

Dear Mr. President:

Please indulge me the opportunity to present a, to my
knowledge, novel proposal on the Israeli-Palestinian
Arab conflict.

A Palestinian State made up of Gaza and 2/3 of the
Sinai Penninsula, with the Arab areas of the West Bank
continuing a policy of limited local soveriegnty.

We have two competing interests here:

1. The interest of the Palestinian Arabs to have "a
home of their own." National self-determination, etc.


2. The security interests of Israel.

In the current paradigm, these interests are virtually
mutually exclusive.

But they don't have to be.

The Sinai is not a heavily populated area. It is
already "legally" demiliterized, if not factually so.
It is contiguous with Gaza, where the majority of
Palestinian Arabs live.

If Egypt could be convinced (ie. money and weapons),
for the good of their Arab Bretheren, to, along with
Israel, give some of the land they control, a large
part of the Sinai, over to a new (and stricktly
monitored from the outside) Palestinian State, the
Arabs there would at least have a state to call their
own, even if parts of the land that they want so badly
would not be included.

This would have several tactical benefits.

(1) it would call the Palestinians on their bluff -
what do they want more, a national homeland, or the
destruction of Israel.

(2) Palestinian refugees in other nations would have a
place to return to.

(3) Egypt, which has its own problem with Muslim
Fundamentalists, would have a place to deport them to.

(4) It would allow the US and World to keep tabs on
some of the most dangerous international terrorists by
having many of them in one, limited, space.

(5) It would also call the Arab nations bluff as too
how much they want to help their brothers.

(6) It would avoid the issue of Israeli strategic Self
defense, as the West Bank is the major issue there,
Gaza is virtually unimportant.

(7) It would prevent Sharon from making more
incursions into Gaza, which raise tensions among our
Arab friends.

As to the West Bank, certainly Palestinains who wished
to move to the new state of Palestine would have an
Israel like "right of return."

The rest of the Area would be annexed by Israel,
subject to Oslo like autonomy provisions over the
mainly Arab areas of the West Bank, and Israel
offering citizenship to all Arab residents who wish to
remain in Israel as opposed to relocate to Palestine
(certainly Israel would offer economic incentives to
move...including compensation for land at above market
rates...and certainly the world would pledge its aid
to helping build this new state and giving each new
family its version of "four acres and a mule.")

Please consider this proposal.

It would be a bold move by the United States, and one
that might have some hope of peacefully resolving the
conflict there.

Yours,

[Miriam]

You know, it might be an idea... I do think, however, that you are not the first one to come up with it.

[IlyaFurman]

What if they said that the "jewish people" should go into sinai? do you think they will accept it? no, come on, its all about jerusalem, they are fighting for al aqsa mosque and jerusalem, thats their main prize, nothing else, the day they accept to leave that area is the day hell freezes over.

[MGB8]

There's a BIG diference.

We HAVE an established state. They WANT one.

Moreover, the Jewish ties to Jerusalem are MUCH MUCH stronger than Arab ties - religiously, historically, and politically.

The bottom line is that the Arabs who define themselves as "Palestinians" have to choose - what do they want more: self sovereignty or a certain parcell of land.

Israel has NO OBLIGATION to give back an inch of land taken in a war...a defensive war, no less.

Israel has TONS OF REASONS NOT to give back any of the West Bank - mostly because the the West Bank is very close to ALL of Israel's major population centers and an attack through it could bifurcate the country (cut it in half) making it much much harder to fight a war - as forces in the north could not easily get to the south if they were needed there because they'd have to pass through enemy forces.

Israel SHOULD NOT give up the West bank (or the Golan) because that would be irresponsible to its people - Syria and Lebanon are still technically at war with us, more than technically because Lebanese militants fire into israel and Syria Arms terrorsits.

We are at war with Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Yemen, Qatar, Iraq and Iran.

Even the countries we are "at peace" with, if you look at Government sponsored media, are virulently anti-semetic (not anti-Israeli mind you, though they are, but pure-anti-jewish hatred - elders of zion...)

However, even though Israel should not give back the West Bank, if there are a group of Arabs who want there own state, and there is land available for them to accomplish that goal, then why not? Gaza could be the start, and the Sinai is territorally contiguous with Gaza, making it a strong choice, especially since its not very inhabitted.




Originally posted by IlyaFurman
What if they said that the "jewish people" should go into sinai? do you think they will accept it? no, come on, its all about jerusalem, they are fighting for al aqsa mosque and jerusalem, thats their main prize, nothing else, the day they accept to leave that area is the day hell freezes over.

[Teacake]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
What if they said that the "jewish people" should go into sinai?-


I think you mean... return Sinai since that was land Israel already gave up for a deal.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
What if they said that the "jewish people" should go into sinai?

The better question might be 'what if they said that the Jewihs people should go back to their historical homeland?'

Actually, that is of course what the Jewish people are doing in Israel.


... its all about jerusalem, they are fighting for al aqsa mosque and jerusalem, thats their main prize, nothing else, the day they accept to leave that area is the day hell freezes over.

I don't think it's about Jerusalem and the al Aqsa mosque. It's about the Arab and Islamic fantasy of ethically cleansing the Mideast (and the world) from all non-Muslims.

[Teacake]

The better question might be 'what if they said that the Jewihs people should go back to their historical homeland?'

Which is originally 5 times larger than what Israel is today.... yeah I like that!

[whereamigod]

Liek it all you want, it's never going to happen. This proposal is meaningless. Under this proposal the Palestinians lose more then they gain. The only agreement that can be made is for the full return of land to the Palestinian people. Like it or not, thats it.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
The better question might be 'what if they said that the Jewihs people should go back to their historical homeland?'


I strongly disagree with that logic, what if we give back Rome and whole of italy to the etruscans the original inhabitants of Italy, what if we give back the US to the native americans, that is not the right logic.

But Israel so far has fough for the land it has acquired, so it should keep it, but it should respect the paletianians and give them their homeland also. Just west bank and gaza.

[MGB8]

Israel cannot give back the West Bank.

There is no such thing as a Palestinian Ethnicity, it is a not a coherent group.

There is no such thing as "Palestinian land" or a "Palestinian homeland."

When Rome coined the word "Palestine" it was simply to rename the area of JUDEA as punishment to the Jews for revolting.

There has NEVER been a "Palestine" aside from that. Jordan controlled the land between 48 and 67.

Israel should give the Arabs of Greater ISRAEL an ultimatum...if you want a state without Jewish Sovereignty, we'll work to get you one on Borders that are ACCEPTABLE TO ISRAEL (defensively) can live with.

If you want war, we will give you WAR....no holds barred war, your "freedom fighters" against our military.

If it is merely a conflict of two different claims on the same land (which, in my opinion, to the majority of Palestinians it is) then let the conflict be fought out. Annihilate until they surrender and realize that their aims are impossible.

I am all for sovereignty for those who want it, but it may not come on their terms. I am more for Israeli saftey and security, and giving up the west bank militarily is simply an unsafe and foolish thing to do.

If the Arabs want war, let them live, excuse me, die, with the consequences. I will go home and pick up a gun myself.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by MGB8
Israel cannot give back the West Bank.

There is no such thing as a Palestinian Ethnicity, it is a not a coherent group.

There is no such thing as "Palestinian land" or a "Palestinian homeland."

If the Arabs want war, let them live, excuse me, die, with the consequences. I will go home and pick up a gun myself.

Woudnt that be wonderful if Israel could keep the west bank? Very Unlikely.

Well thats like saying there is no such thing as "Israeli Land" or "Israeli Homeland"

The Arabs call it an Arab Land not a Palestian land, And yes it was an Arab land, you said there was no palstine but you choose to say "Palestine land" to support your point.

And that would be a really bad idea to go Muslims vs Jews, really really really bad, Do you think Israel can take on all the Muslims?

Give me a break.

[Mediocrates]

so what that amounts to is this

"For Jews, might makes right is racist but for the Arabs, might makes right is simply the way it is."


Your mother must be so proud.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
so what that amounts to is this

"For Jews, might makes right is racist but for the Arabs, might makes right is simply the way it is."


Your mother must be so proud.

huh?

[Mediocrates]

I get the distinct sense that on the one hand you think the might makes right argument whether it is applied appropriately or not is racist while, implicitly, when talking about arabs the same argument becomes one of "eh, thats the way they are, nothing to do~"

If I'm wrong I'm sorry.

[L@mplighterM]

How’s this for a thought?

Israel threatens to declare war against Jordan and Egypt unless they take back whatever part of the WB and GS that they don’t require too establish secure borders.

Jordan and Egypt accepts the land.

Arafat is executed by the Jordanians immediately. The militants in the WB and GS are all executed by the Jordanians and the Egyptians.

[MGB8]

Woudnt that be wonderful if Israel could keep the west bank? Very Unlikely.

Why? They've kept it for 35 years, and its not a matter of "if," its a matter of what is best for Israel.



Well thats like saying there is no such thing as "Israeli Land" or "Israeli Homeland"

WRONG. Ever read the Bible/Torah? How about the Qu'ran, since it acknowledges the existence of Jerusalem as the capitol of the "people of the book." How about Roman historians...



The Arabs call it an Arab Land not a Palestian land, And yes it was an Arab land, you said there was no palstine but you choose to say "Palestine land" to support your point.

The problem is that its the best term for it right now. I could say Samarea and Judea. But the bottom line is that since the 60's, a group of arabs have invented a group called "Palestinians" and said that they want a homeland. So why not call them on it? Say, okay, if you want a homeland, we can arrange on for you, but it may not be WHERE you want it.

As for whether there are Arab claims on the land, of course there are, and their are Israeli claims on the land, too. And, frankly, the Israeli claims are stronger historically, religiously, and because Israel won the land in a defensive war (and all the Arab nations admitted that they were on the verge of attack, so please don't be a revisionist here - Israel COULD have not made a pre-emptive strike, but that would not have prevented the 67 war.)




And that would be a really bad idea to go Muslims vs Jews, really really really bad, Do you think Israel can take on all the Muslims?

Um, yeah. What do you think its been since 1948? And guess who's winning, without oil, mind you, or UN backing. Its not Muslim on Jew, its Muslim STATE on Jewish STATE, and that's the way it has been. Go study history, and give me a break.


Give me a break.

[IlyaFurman]

Why? They've kept it for 35 years, and its not a matter of "if," its a matter of what is best for Israel.

Has it been good for Israel so far?? Even with good Israely companies donating to Israel, and the billions of dollars in American Aid flused into Israel, how is Israel's economy doing? BAD



WRONG. Ever read the Bible/Torah? How about the Qu'ran, since it acknowledges the existence of Jerusalem as the capitol of the "people of the book." How about Roman historians...

Isnt the Messiah supposed to come back and rebuild the land that the Jewish people were kicked out from?



The problem is that its the best term for it right now. I could say Samarea and Judea. But the bottom line is that since the 60's, a group of arabs have invented a group called "Palestinians" and said that they want a homeland. So why not call them on it? Say, okay, if you want a homeland, we can arrange on for you, but it may not be WHERE you want it.

Everyone knows that they created the term "palestianians" but the Palestianias are Arabs, and it has been an arab land for a very long time.


As for whether there are Arab claims on the land, of course there are, and their are Israeli claims on the land, too. And, frankly, the Israeli claims are stronger historically, religiously, and because Israel won the land in a defensive war (and all the Arab nations admitted that they were on the verge of attack, so please don't be a revisionist here - Israel COULD have not made a pre-emptive strike, but that would not have prevented the 67 war.)

Historically they dont, religiously they do, but religiously it really doesnt matter, I think the muslims think the world belongs to muslims, I think, Does that mean we give the whole world to the muslims? nope Israel fought and got land but dont forget how it was formed, Israel should stop the injustice and give the Arabs the land, alteast westbank and gaza.






Um, yeah. What do you think its been since 1948? And guess who's winning, without oil, mind you, or UN backing. Its not Muslim on Jew, its Muslim STATE on Jewish STATE, and that's the way it has been. Go study history, and give me a break.

First of all Israel gets MASSIVE AID, dont deny that, it has and always will, secondly Israel isnt winning, what do you call winning? Israely's civilians dying everyday in the dozens, thats not winning,

and the arabs if they were to go into a guerilla type of warfare like in chechnya or afghanistan then its over, Russia LOST to a small country called Chechnya, but you see the palestinians cant have guns and weapons unless illegally, that is why Israel has troops near sinia and jordaian border, to prevent "freedom martyrs" willing to fight into the country, all those muslim "freedom fighters" are willing to die,

If we dont give the arabs alteast the west bank or gaza think about it, Israel will never ever live in peace, alteast with giving them those two areas peace is convieble, greed should get out of ur system, wont help.

[MGB8]

Ilya,

There is a difference in evidence that Israel was the Jewish homeland (ie. historically Israel was Jewish pre-and-into Rome) and a literall reading of the Torah.

Your argument their is based on a false-comparison.

Second, the West Bank has been good for Israel on several accounts - it made it harder for Egypt and Syria to win the Yom Kippur War (imagine if the only had to cut of a small 9 mile wide are, even coming from the south, as opposed to knowing Israeli forces could move north and south throughout ALL of the West Bank.

It also probably discouraged Jordan from joining in on the Invasion, which had that happened, probably would have meant the end of Israel and some very large radioactive patches in the mideast (the Sampson plan).

As for Israel "winning" it is surviving, and that is enough. If Israel was given a free hand to deal with the terrorists in even the manner that Europe or the US is, much less the way Arab countries are, there wouldn't be any more suicide attacks because most of the people would have been (a) killed in fighting or (b) deported/expelled.

That is the issue.

As for "it has been Arab land for a long time." NO IT HASN'T. You have to go back BEFORE THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE to the last time it was "Arab land."

Where there some Arabs living on parts of the land, some with legal title to parts of the land, for a long time, sure. But it wasn't Arab land in terms of the sovereign any more than land that has been own by a German family in the US for 200 years is "German land," maybe even preceding the US, is German land!

[richcrassus]

2/3 of the Sinai, your joking, i wouldnt even give them 1/4 of the sinai.
Plus, they will always want to attack israel anyway, They probably will still attack using field guns and mortars anyway, and maybe evebn the occasional suicide attack.
Look they are not going to get theor own state ok. They dont want peace all they want is to destroy israel, all of them its not just the angry young men who want to, its the ugly disgusting mothers who tell teach their children to hate jews and israel that want to destroy israel as well.
By the way Netanyahu WONT be better the 2nd time around, he had his chance to fix the problem , he didnt, he will just screw around doing nothing again this time, what israel needs is someone who isnt scared of the USA and the whole world to just kick them out into jordan or saudi arabia or libya once and for all, thats it, simple., let the whole stinking cry foul let all the journalists call jews nazis who gives a rats ass, just as long as their is perminant peace.
Israel can do it if they want to, they just lack the will and the leadership and the guts to do it. America will never turn its back to israel, if they do, who cares, israel will have more of a free hand to deal with more arabs who try something.

[IlyaFurman]

MGB8, I know exactly where your coming from, but I really think that there will be horror and no peace and the ultimate destruction of Israel by Extremist Idiots, if we dont give them atleast west bank and gaza/

[Mediocrates]

And then what? Declare the State of Insaneistan?

[Miriam]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
MGB8, I know exactly where your coming from, but I really think that there will be horror and no peace and the ultimate destruction of Israel by Extremist Idiots, if we dont give them atleast west bank and gaza/ Who are "we"? At what does "at least" mean?

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Miriam
Who are "we"? At what does "at least" mean?

We is the world community, mainly Israel, and dont say its up to Israel please, cause Israel was also created by the world community.

Atleast means exactly that, West Bank and Gaza, remeber the extermists want all of Israel.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
And then what? Declare the State of Insaneistan?

This is what I think should happen, let them get a state, and if for some reason terrorism continues, threaten a war with "Palestine" or threaten the retaking of Palestianian lands, this way they dont have the stupid excuse of " we are doing this cause we are occupied", stuff like that.

[Mediocrates]

Don't take this wrong way but that's lunkhead thinking. There is zero and let me stress this again, ZIP possibility that Israel would ever be allowed to defend itself against a Free Palstine. Zero. Even discussing it would be construed as a war crime against the poor people of Palistan. Guarantee is 100%.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Don't take this wrong way but that's lunkhead thinking. There is zero and let me stress this again, ZIP possibility that Israel would ever be allowed to defend itself against a Free Palstine. Zero. Even discussing it would be construed as a war crime against the poor people of Palistan. Guarantee is 100%.

I agree with that, but if terrorism comes from the palestianian areas, and it keeps happening, I can almost bet the world community will be with us, now they are not, cause of the horror or "occupation" that most europeans know about. Israel needs to take out the "occupation excuse" from palestian terrorists.

[Moskal']

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
...there will be horror and no peace and the ultimate destruction of Israel by Extremist Idiots, if we dont give them atleast west bank and gaza/
That is like the stuff Chamberlain tried.

[MGB8]

Just putting in the text for the poll, which is cited to in an article on IsraelInsider.com

A poll on an al-Fatah Web site, www.fatehorg.org, asks visitors whether they favor ''martyrdom attacks'' - that is, terror attacks - (a) within Israel proper, (b) within the 1967 territories only, (c) within both, or (d) not at all. As of midday Wednesday, 6.9 percent of respondents had chosen (a), 12.5 percent (b), and 69.1 percent (c). Only 11.6 percent favored an end to anti-Israel terrorism altogether. (Translation courtesy of the Israel Resource News Agency.)

[Miriam]

Originally posted by MGB8


Dear Mr. President:, According to a French translation of a Lebanese report ( http://www.proche-orient.info/xjournal_pol_der_heure.php3?id_article=7496 ) Effi Eitam has recently proposed the same.

Btw., did you get a reply to your letter?

[MGB8]

No, no response :( other than theusual confirmation of reciept and such.

I'm happy that others have put forth the idea. While it has its deficiencies, I think its a possible avenue forward.




Originally posted by Miriam
According to a French translation of a Lebanese report ( http://www.proche-orient.info/xjournal_pol_der_heure.php3?id_article=7496 ) Effi Eitam has recently proposed the same.

Btw., did you get a reply to your letter?

[dodo]

good post

The better question might be 'what if they said that the Jewihs people should go back to their historical homeland?'

MGB8
sure you are not serious and just dreaming

The better question might be 'what if they said that the Jewihs people should go back to their historical and original homeland at Europe and russia ?'

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by dodo
good post


MGB8
sure you are not serious and just dreaming

The better question might be 'what if they said that the Jewihs people should go back to their historical and original homeland at Europe and russia ?'

Oh, yes... the latest Arab lie is that there never was an ancient Israel.

[MGB8]

The Jewish Historical Homeland IS ISRAEL!!!!

That's A FACT, unless you are so willfully blind and stupid as to believe ALL RECORDED HISTORY in the Western World. For G's SAKE! Rome recorded it. Eqypt recorded it. Jesus was born there. That's not myth, that's reality (although his divinity is a real big question, and something Jews don't believe in.)

You know what else is recorded history - the Arab homeland IS IN ARABIA! As in Saudi Arabia. Not Bagdhad, which was Persia, and before then Babylon and even before then Mesopotamia. We're talking Mecca and Medina.

There is no real Arab history in Israel accept for a couple centuries between their conquest of the area and the Crusades. After that it is mostly turk, a bit egyptian. Until we get to partition time. Not that there weren't some Arabs living in the area, but we are not talking here in terms of centuries, nor ANY independent culture.

It was the JEWS that made the area a nation again. The arabs WERE NOT AT THE POINT OF HAVING NATIONS in 1949, only warlords and villages, but the British drew lines and created them.




Originally posted by dodo
good post


MGB8
sure you are not serious and just dreaming

The better question might be 'what if they said that the Jewihs people should go back to their historical and original homeland at Europe and russia ?'

[Kolyahu]

If you will recall, under the leadership of Mr. Ehud Barak, the PLO was offered all the above. What did they do with such a deal? Israel was about to give them all that they wanted and more . They would not accept. Now think about this. Had they accepted, then later after the transfer of property rights, etc. turned around and begun a new wave of attacks, Barak would have then offerred to give them Jerusalem too. On and on and on it would go until the Jewish people had to go live off shore.
The land for peace thing was a farce to begin with. Shall we try another Masada? How 'bout we cause Sadam Hussein and all his freinds to attack Israel with a missile or two. Then use it as an excuse to take out all of the Mid-Eastern govt.s that will not recognize her legitimacy to exist, with what ever means at our disposal. We could do so quite easily, given their most volatile and infantile nature.
Goad them, to initiate; then wipe 'em out its' the only way to be sure. Because that is what they want to do to Israel. and they are using the palestinian people, they consider as 'canon fodder' and expendable anyway. Hamas, and all them groups are expendables and they know it. You must track the $$ to know who the enemy is. It is not just the Arab nations, but those who puppeteer them in our own backyard. That is fact. I can I.D. them for you, but you would not believe me. Shalom

[Miriam]

Originally posted by dodo


The better question might be 'what if they said that the Jewihs people should go back to their historical and original homeland at Europe and russia ?' Why, that's what "they" are doing the whole time. And if the said Jews do happen to be there, they are told to get out and go back to Israel - take my word for this. Any proposals for a "Jewish homeland" acceptable to the general public other than the moon?

[Mediocrates]

It's all just childish nonsense. Waiving a posterboard over your head and screaming "Jews Out Peace In" is not a plan or a goal or an approach or a realistic view of the world or anything else. It is merely the prattle of the deeply neurotic who can neither think for themselves nor hope for anything. But the truly sad thing is that let's say on day 2 of their paradise when there are no Jews on this plot of ground or that one and STILL the violence persists, they will find some other reason to blame us for it. We've seen this before, it was called Kristallnacht.

[Kolyahu]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
It's all just childish nonsense. Waiving a posterboard over your head and screaming "Jews Out Peace In" is not a plan or a goal or an approach or a realistic view of the world or anything else. It is merely the prattle of the deeply neurotic who can neither think for themselves nor hope for anything. But the truly sad thing is that let's say on day 2 of their paradise when there are no Jews on this plot of ground or that one and STILL the violence persists, they will find some other reason to blame us for it. We've seen this before, it was called Kristallnacht.

The night of broken glass.... In Hebrew; Night=LYL- Y= LL......upside down=SS....is there a relevance? U tell me.
(Y =10=HaDevarim in stone) without them there is Lo Ohr (no light in them), even the lesser Light gets turned upside down without them. Praise Yah...! He is fighting for us even now. Do you SEE their confusion? Remember how he wages His battles.
......I am.

[Communication]

hmm...I came to this thread late so let me just say:

***the offer of a homeland in Siani will never work because unlike the West Bank, the land in the Siani is not easily cultivated. The West Bank is where the aquifiers are and water is as valuable in the ME as oil, or will one day be more so. They really do want Jerusalem. We can argue about whether this is a political ploy or not, but it doesn't matter. The facts are, it is now firmly entrenched in their minds and hearts.

***Someone stated, "Everyone knows that they created the term "palestianians" but the Palestianias are Arabs, and it has been an arab land for a very long time."

Technically, this has never been true. That land was under the rule of several empires, not one was an "Arab" Empire. Do you mean Islamic? The Ottoman Empire was ruled by the Turks, not Arabs, and Jews were also living in the land as long as anyone else, even though the Arabs constituted a majority.

***Israel cannot give the land back to Jordan. They won't take it. Right now, Jordan is perhaps the friendliest neighbor (other than Turkey) that Israel has. Israel cannot afford to jeopardize this relationship.

***A right of return is a really ridiculous assertion for so many reasons, many of which have been brought up in this forum through other threads. I could go into it more if someone needs me to, but I'd rather not. It's a post all of its' own.

***Perhaps the best option would be to complete the wall and unilaterally withdraw from most if not all of the settlements. There are problems with that, of course. You would be essentially asking the religious Jews to kiss our holy places good-bye, they will likely be destroyed and rebuilt as mosques not unlike Joseph's tomb. But, the price we would pay for holding on to them would be too high. Life above land! Of course rockets fly over walls and we all know that unilaterall withdrawl will not bring peace. The Palestinians have shown themselves incapable thus far under the present leadership to build a viable economy and infrastructure. Many Palestinians have depended a great deal on Israel for jobs, healthcare, electricity and various other kinds of support. And there is no reason not to take groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad or the many other factions by their word when they say that they will not rest until all the land is theirs.

Taking a defensive position is what the world wants Israel to do. But I will be surprised if they will allow Israel to defend itself when attacked against a demilitarized state (not that they will be demilitarized). The UN actually labeled it an act of aggression for Israel to return fire when Hezbollah fires rockets into Israel. It's incredible, but true. Also, sadly, the roads that have been created for the settlements have made it easier for the military to enter Palestinian cities in response to terrorist attacks inside Israel.

So the options are very slim. I hate to admit this because I consider myself a peace-minded person, but I think that this present war has turned into a battle of wills in addition to a battle for world oppinion. I think it will take the majority of Palestinians to come to the conclusion that they will not achieve their goals through continuing terror and I'm not sure how close they are to this realization. After that, it will take positive steps made by Israel to ease the suffering of the Palestinians and there is a great deal that can be done there. Israel MUST stop settlement construction and to the extent that it feels it can, evacuate those settlments that do not make sense to defend and are a drain on military resources.

Israel should give the Palestinian people as much relief as possible from Israeli intrustion into their daily lives. I realize that that did not work during the Oslo years, when the PA controlled much of the West Bank. But Palestinians were at least making money then. Their lives were better. Other than that, which isn't much, I think there needs to be serious attempts to find those Palestinians who do believe that they can live side-by-side in peace with Israel and promote modest attempts at dialogue between the two sides. It's easy to hate your enemy when you demonize them and strip them of their humanity. This sort of process will takes years, probably generations to achieve. No piece of paper signed by corrupt leaders will bring peace if the majority of people on both sides are not on board for it.

The other option would be to continue to use the military to root out the terorist infrastructure and hope that the geopolitical reality in the rest of the ME changes over the next 10 or so years.

[Kolyahu]

Welcome aboard Comm. :)
Peace is not something all can agree to. They all havr differing opinions as to what that word means. Define peace, that is a step which no one has taken in a rational inter-faith dialogue, then to take the stage against the world powers that will do anything & everything to keep those powers, come hell or high water.
To some groups peace is having 1,000 virgins to serve every need in some invisible place beyond time itself. Price of admission; go blow up some people with a cry of some word on the lips.
That is not peace to me but there are those who think that way. No matter how they got that idea, American-ISM (rather the religion of tolerance) which is being preached these days, does nothing to bring what I consider peace into that region, it doesn't even work in this land which is the place which espouses the religion of tolerance.
That; in & of itself is why.... I cannot tolerate a vision of peace that holds the above view, and therefore I can also reject the religion of tolerance.
My opinion: Peace is a state of being, where the struggles of life are not hampered by the fears of being hated and hunted like an animal, free to learn about all things without the fears of being beaten, or stabbed in the back because you ask a question, or because some one disagrees. There aren't too many places like that unless you want to be a hermit, been there - done that, it sucks.... anyways; Shalom and welcome to the party :cool:

[Communication]

Originally posted by dodo
good post


MGB8
sure you are not serious and just dreaming

The better question might be 'what if they said that the Jewihs people should go back to their historical and original homeland at Europe and russia ?'


you forgot Yemen, or Iraq, or Lybia, or....Egypt!