The first refusniks from the right wing

[sharonbn]

Three sergeants from the Nahal brigade refused to participate in the evacuation of the illegal settlement "Gilad Farm", thus becoming the first refusniks from the right wing.

The three, national religious and themselves residents of settlements, explained to their commanders that they cannot take part in what they called "uprooting of a Jewish settlement in Israel". Two of the soldiers were court martialed and sentenced to 10 days in military jail. The third soldier was not trailed due to extreme anxiety and severe mental state. At the end of the punishment term, all three soldiers will be removed from their positions as non-ranking officers in the Nahal brigade.

The event, which IDF attempted to conceal, took place on Wednesday two weeks ago. This was a few days before the first attempt to dismantle Gilad Farm. The chief commander of the Nahal base decided to hold "preparation talks" to mentally prepare the soldiers and refresh their knowledge of the process of evacuation of civilians. The three refusniks stayed in their quarters and did not attend the talks. They told the base commander they do not intend to confront their "fellow men" - referring to the settlers of Gilad Farm who were to be evicted.

Eventually, the company to which the refusniks belong to did not take part in the operation in Gilad Farm. Nevertheless, the base commander decided to court martial the refusniks. The commanding officers of the company held talks with the soldiers on the issue of the place and task of an army in a democratic state and the importance of obeying commands.

IDF spokesperson commented:
"IDF condemns the phenomenon of refusing service and disobeying orders. IDF stresses the point these actions are illegal and poses a threat to the function of the army. IDF wishes to point out that the soldiers who did take part in the evacuation operation performed their duty while displaying high degree of discipline."

* originally posted in Ynet.

[sharonbn]

newsGuy, is this also the worst danger in Israel's history (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=215&perpage=15&pagenumber=1) ?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by sharonbn
newsGuy, is this also the worst danger in Israel's history (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=215&perpage=15&pagenumber=1) ?

Very possibly.

An army cannot function with every soldier deciding on a whim if they feel like obeying orders on any particualr day. If they don't want to serve, they can sit in jail.

But at this point, the Leftists have set a precedent in Israel whereby, apparently, a soldier can either choose to obey commands, or in the alternative sit in jail and be considered a political martyr, so I guess it will be the same way for the Rightist refuseniks.

You know, if only they would allow the Rightists to go fight the Palestinian terrorists and the Leftists could evacuate the settlements, everyone would be one happy family. :)

[Miriam]

Originally posted by NewsGuy

You know, if only they would allow the Rightists to go fight the Palestinian terrorists and the Leftists could evacuate the settlements, everyone would be one happy family. :) It might be a good idea, you know. The young women in military uniforms trying to drag young settlers - backs on the ground, legs kicking in the air - away were a sight worthy of a Woody Allen film :D

[Mediocrates]

The two situations are completely different. One is a refusal to fight. OK civil disobediance is understandable. The other is much more insidious. In this case soldiers were ordered to act against Israeli citizens. They were fullfilling a police duty and police or some other group should have been used for the job. It is a

HORRIBLE

mistake to use the military for this kind of purpose. Those soldiers should be commended yet immediately discharged for their own protection and sanity, from the IDF. They were put in possibly the worst position a soldier not actively shooting back can be put in. I cannot stress enough what an incredibly

HORRIBLE

idea it is to use the army for civil disturbances. Moreover they have created a precident for deploying the army against any Israeli civilian population which is tantamount to martial law. Whoever ordered this tactic to be used should be stripped of all authority immediately. I'm sorry if people find this shocking but I can't stress enough what a destructive and corrosive effect it has to employ your army this way.

(for comparison, in the US, two of the National Guardsmen at the Ohio State shooting killed themselves, half a dozen officers were stripped of their command)

If I were the field commander I would carried out the order and immediately resigned from the army. This is disgraceful.

[L@mplighterM]

What if they had a war and nobody came?

I understand why the soldiers didn’t want to carry out the order and I do feel a hint of sympathy for them. The particulars of this situation should never have been available to the press because it indirectly may cause the loss of civilian Jewish life.

This particular incident will be viewed as a weakness by the enemies of Israel and in some point in time it may be used to the Palestinians advantage.

Being court-martialed and receiving 10 days in detention seems lenient to me. You can’t run a Laurel and Hardy type of an army where soldiers refuse to do this or that. A soldier must follow commands to the letter assuming that such orders don’t violate international law.

It can be argued that the IDF shouldn’t have been involved in this particular situation but they were and they had an obligation to follow orders.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
They were fullfilling a police duty and police or some other group should have been used for the job... HORRIBLE idea it is to use the army for civil disturbances. Moreover they have created a precedent for deploying the army against any Israeli civilian population which is tantamount to martial law.

1. I'm also dismayed that the IDF would be used to evacuate settlements and I vehemently disagree with any effort to prevent Jews from living anywhere they please in the Jewish homeland. It is immoral and a huge mistake from many points of view.

But that policy needs to be fought in the court system and in the election arena (which it will be no doubt be soon enough), not through violence.

2. The military is used in all countries when the police are not able to handle certain situations. Here in L.A., the national guard was called out to stop racial riots, and in many other situations like the one you mentioned, the military is used against citizens of their own country.

Of course there is no moral comparison between the Jewish settlers and the rioters in the U.S., but it does demonstrate that the military may be used in certain cases to act against their own citizens.

Still, it gets back to the original point that no Jew should ever be prevented from living freely in the Jewish homeland. It is very worrisome that the Israeli government feels that it cannot withstand the international pressure on it with regard to curtailing the settlements.

Maybe the Refusenik should be the Israeli government -- refusing to bow to international pressure and willing to pay the price whatever that may be.

[takeo]

mediocrates: "I cannot stress enough what an incredibly

HORRIBLE

idea it is to use the army for civil disturbances. Moreover they have created a precident for deploying the army against any Israeli civilian population which is tantamount to martial law. Whoever ordered this tactic to be used should be stripped of all authority immediately. I'm sorry if people find this shocking but I can't stress enough what a destructive and corrosive effect it has to employ your army this way."

the israeli army is employed daily for (non-military) civil disturbances by Palestinians in the occupied territory. Is this HORRIBLE too according to you?


newsguy "I vehemently disagree with any effort to prevent Jews from living anywhere they please in the Jewish homeland(...) Still, it gets back to the original point that no Jew should ever be prevented from living freely in the Jewish homeland. "

Sure enough, being Jew gives them the right to claim land of those subhuman squatters who do not belong to the Jewish blood, f*** the international law, human rights and un-resolutions. You belong to the worst kind of war-mongerers that will not rest untill the last Palestinian has been etnically cleansed and will do everything to prevent peace with the Palestinians.
In my opinion the real squatters are the illegal settlements built during the occupation and those should be removed as a great step towards peace and reconciliation, this is also the opinion of the majority of israeli's, according to polls, and i hope it will be a major issue during the upcoming election campaign.
But it is not necessary to use violence against those settlers, they would leave with the idf (most will, only the die-hard armed extremists will resist) or being left at the mercy of the Palestinians.

"A soldier must follow commands to the letter assuming that such orders don’t violate international law."

That's exactly why the leftist refuseniks refuse to serve in land that doesn't belong to israel.

[NewsGuy]

takeo, first of all learn to address others here with respect if you expect a response.

[takeo]

oK, maybe i was not very respectfull to you in my latest post, I let carry me away, sorry, but neither are you usually respectfull to me or anyone who is sympathic to the Palestinian cause, calling them "traitors", "terrorist-apologists", etc. that's why i have the right to call you a "war-mongerer".

[Micah]

If I was any of those soldiers I would have done the same thing. My dad told me of the circumstances of how this all came to be and it was sickening to me that anybody could do that to someone.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Micah
If I was any of those soldiers I would have done the same thing. My dad told me of the circumstances of how this all came to be and it was sickening to me that anybody could do that to someone.
then you would become a criminal and be put in jail.

You understand this msg incites military rebellion. This poses the worst danger in Israeli history. much worse than the Palestinian terror or Iraqi threat.

[Micah]

No, a real threat is when the army starts conducting itself VERY IMMORALLY toward it's own people. You don't tell someone that everything will be fine, that your buildings which you built on property you bought, will all be kept safe. Then when you agree to then, you recall all of your employees and then the army pulls up in a bulldozer a bulldozes the SAME BUILDINGS which you said you weren't going to touch, then the army has gone too far. Call me a criminal for standing up to my morals and not doing something so devious. It's fine with me.

[sharonbn]

Former minister of defense, Ben Eliezer, denied reaching any agreement with the settlers.
If you choose to believe these hooligans - that's your choice. However, the same people you defend so vigorously, are those who attacked Israeli soldiers (incl. women soldiers) and caused the injury of 30 of them

These people bring shame to the state of Israel as a state of law. They demonsterate that a group of Jews with utter disregard to government decisions and the law - can get away with it.

[Outsider]

I saw an intersting TV document about these soldiers who refuse to serve in the present Israeli army and thought there might be something here as well, although the authorities refused in the documentary to say anything. And yes, there is some discussion here!

I also saw the following address given in the document by the refuseniks: http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

They guys sounded very bright to me and I only hope they get more company. What's your view?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by sharonbn
These people bring shame to the state of Israel as a state of law. They demonsterate that a group of Jews with utter disregard to government decisions and the law - can get away with it.

Actually, this would not be the first time a group of Israeli citizens "with utter disregard to government decisions and the law - can get away with it." Many of Israel's Muslim citizens can't really be bothered with paying taxes like the rest of the country.

Have Israel's Leftists done anything about that to uphold the rule of law, or is the rule of law just something that needs to be enforced against Jews in Israel?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Outsider
They guys sounded very bright to me and I only hope they get more company. What's your view?

Yes, these are bright kids from privileged families, for the most part. But their intelligence is not matched by life experience.

Like other 18 year-olds worldwide, they live their lives according to an idealistic, highly naive reality.

In their mind, if Israel stops fighting Islamic terrorism, then the Islamists will suddenly stop slaughtering Jews and give up their Jihad war, because the Israeli teenagers were sweet to them.

To 18 year olds, such fantasies seem real and so they simply ignore the facts. They don't understand the true evil of the Islamic world, even though all around them they see families devastated by Palestinian mass-murderers. Jewish children machine-gunned with their mothers in their own homes, infants shot in their beds, because they believe the Palestinians believe that Allah would be proud.

It is a basic misconception of teenagers that if only they can be "anti-war," and if only they will be willing to grant freedom to the terrorist organizations, then of course, all the world's problems will be solved.

It's nice to be idealistic at 18… :)

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Actually, this would not be the first time a group of Israeli citizens "with utter disregard to government decisions and the law - can get away with it." Many of Israel's Muslim citizens can't really be bothered with paying taxes like the rest of the country.

Have Israel's Leftists done anything about that to uphold the rule of law, or is the rule of law just something that needs to be enforced against Jews in Israel?
This is the lamest response I've heard on the issue:
1. Many Jewish Israeli citizens "can't really be bothered with paying taxes" as well (believe me, I personally know a lot). I didn't hear the rightists say anything about that.
2. Israeli left wing does not support tax evaders or other criminals.
3. Are you saying that because there are tax evaders that get away with it - that makes it OK to refuse on order in the military?? two wrongs don't a right. Both cases are criminals.

Oh, and Just in case you're gonna raise it: so are rapists, black market traders, forgers, theives, con men, traffic violators .... did I miss someone?

[Mediocrates]

Yes, the Middle Ages is what you get when you leave teenagers in charge.

But much like being a parent otherwise we fiercely defend their right to hate us.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by sharonbn
This is the lamest response I've heard on the issue..

You sound very confused.

There is no "excuse" at all that needs to be made.

But I am responding to your main statement that sounds as if this is the first time that any group dares shows disregard for Israeli law. It is certainly not, as you yourself point out.

But you seem to be much more shocked and angry at the Jewish settlers than at the total disregard for the law shown by any other group. Why is that?

[sharonbn]

I didn't say excuse. I said response.

First, you don't know my attitude towards law violators of other kind. Just because I did not express it, does not mean I don't feel it.

Second, to me it seems my response to the settlers is not more "shocked" than you're response to the refusniks, calling them with the understatement "the worst danger in Israeli history". You also failed to show same shock and anger towards other criminals.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by sharonbn
You also failed to show same shock and anger towards other criminals.

I'm not shocked by any criminals.

But I am dismayed by the Leftist army saboteurs who are acting to destroy Israel's security.

I consider their eroding discipline in the army and tearing apart Israeli society to be partially responsible for the Palestinians' view of the IDF as so weak that the Palestinians feel free to just walk up to Israelis and machine-gun them at will.

Yes, I oppose the settler's violence against the army and the police and I also oppose the soldiers' refusal to obey orders. I've said that enough times.

But I agree with the philosophy of the Right, which is that Jews have the right to live securely freely in the Jewish homeland.

Anyway, hopefully the next elections will put an end to the Left's ability to force Israeli soldiers to evacuate other Jews from the land that is rightfully theirs and we will not be forced to witness such shameful scenes.

[sharonbn]

NewsGuy,

with you last post, I fail to see the reason or logic why you brought up the "arab tax payer" argument.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by sharonbn
I fail to see the reason or logic why you brought up the "arab tax payer" argument.

I think I've already explained that.

[sharonbn]

as I've explained before, you failed to show similar criticism towards any other criminals, other than the Israeli refusniks.
So your question regarding Arab/Jewish tax evaders can be turned to you in the same manner

[Moskal']

Leftists are fading away as a threat for Israeli security. I bet in a few years they will become a marginal party like Chadash etc.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Moskal'
Leftists are fading away as a threat for Israeli security. I bet in a few years they will become a marginal party like Chadash etc.

I wouldn't bet on it so assuringly...

In 1992, the labor party got 42 seats in the Knesset.
In 1996, Netanyahu beat Peres by the smallest possible margin (less then 0.1%!)
In 1999, Barak beat Netanyahu by a 16% landslide.
In 2001, Sharon beat beat Barak by over 20%.

All this teaches us that in Israel the power tends to shift between right and left, according to recent events and other factors (Netanyaho was ousted, imo, because of his personality)

Today the Israeli left (Labour, Meretz, half Merkaz, half Shinui, half Am Echad, Chadash and arab parties) is estimated at a little over one third from the Israeli voters. This shows a decline from 1999 but is a far cry from the description "a marginal party".
As I said, the picture can change 180 degrees, if the climate in the ME changes.

[Mediocrates]

Let me ask you this though. How left is left? How has the political terrain changed Labor? For example here in the States, the classical Left has moved to the center even a little to the right of center. So the differences between Left and Right are largely rhetorical.

How is Labor maintaining its relevance? How left is it?

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Let me ask you this though. How left is left? How has the political terrain changed Labor? For example here in the States, the classical Left has moved to the center even a little to the right of center. So the differences between Left and Right are largely rhetorical.

How is Labor maintaining its relevance? How left is it?
The newly elected leader of the labour party, Amram Mitzna, promised a total separation between Israelis and Palestinians within a year after the general elections. His plan include the dismantling of some of the settlements, including all settlments in Gaza strip and remote ones in WB. The plan is either reach a separation agreement, or take a unilateral step (i.e. fence)
I call this a pretty big difference from Ariel Sharon (who's long term plan, btw, remains unknown at the present.)

[Mediocrates]

How much traction does Mitzna's program have? Those are long term goals, how does he propose to execute on them?

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
How much traction does Mitzna's program have? Those are long term goals, how does he propose to execute on them?
AFAIK, he intends to start negotiations on cease fire with Arafat. If the negotiations fail, then he plans to devise a unilateral withdrawl of IDF to "secured" borders (whatever that means)

PS
An article in ynet today reports that the IDF chief of stuff, Boogy Yaelon, gave a lecture in a closed forum last week in the "Washington institue for ME studies". In his lecture, Yaelon revealed that during their discussions in Cairo, Hamas and Islamic Jihad were close to reaching an agreement with PA regarding 3 months case fire. The PA was represented by Abu Mazen and Muhamad Dahlan. Hamas represetatives withdrew their initial demand for full Israeli withdrawl to pre 67 lines and even withdrew their demand for Israeli withdrawl to pre Sept. 2000 lines as prerequisite to the cease fire.
According to Yaelon, Arafat was not aware of the talks in the beginning. When he was notified of the progress in the talks, he took immediate steps to prevent the agreement. This was done in order to show that no agreement can be reached without his consent and also because of his fear of Abu Mazen's rise in popularity.

given this new information, I begin to doube the chances of Mitzna's plans...