Turkey Threatens to Send Its Navy to Gaza

[NewsGuy]

Well, if this threat materializes, no one can predict the outcome, but there's no doubt that there would be major consequences.

A Turkish official told CNN today that Turkey would send its navy to accompany future ships headed to Gaza to break the Israeli blockade of Hamas.

It's really amazing that a NATO member would dare open its mouth like this. It was unacceptable that Turkey's Islamic prime minister Edrogan referred to the IDF self0defense operation as "state terrorism," but this is over and above anything that will be tolerated, I'm sure.

At the same time, just today, Turkey's army came under attack by its Kurdish population which wants independence from Turkish oppression. Turkey's army bombed Kurdish rebels last week, and today the Kurds fired back. Turkey's oppression of the Kurds has so far resulted in a massacre of 40,000 human beings, mostly Kurdish minorities.

Ironic that the Turks who have signed all kinds of military cooperation agreements with Syria and Iran and are actively engaged in the murder of the Kurds would have the nerve to confront Israel and support Palestinian terrorism in Gaza.

I guess that it's important to distinguish between Turkey's Islamist government and the many Turks who oppose their government. But as it stands today, seeing the Turkish crowds burn Jewish stars and now their government threaten what could potentially turn out to be a war with Israel, it's very disappointing.

[Mil]

If Turkey sends its warships that's declaration of war and nobody wants that. Turkey wants to think VERY VERY hard about that; and that in fact would be end of the relationship between Israel and Turkey - and US would have to make a choice.

Though I doubt it will come to that.

[Cellis]

No there is no such a threat from Turkey. I don't see news about it yet foreign ministry said "war is not even an option" which makes this case clear. Army or Navy wouldn't send ships with IHH even if AKP wanted to.. IHH and Military are like fire and gasoline.

[danholo]

I'm sorry but world opinion will force the nations to side with the Islamists on this one.

[Mil]

The main issue here is that nobody wants to get involved. Send military ships once and then you'll keep on sending those ships. And if there is going to be another war, if Hamas will start shooting, those nations will need to take sides.

[Kenneth]

It's election time in Turkey yes? This is just political show-boating from Edrogan I believe.

[NewsGuy]

I also highly doubt that Turkey would really start a military confrontation against Israel. Probably, anti-Semitism and support for Hamas terrorism will be the extent of it.

Still, making such threats is almost bizarre, even for Edrogan.

FWIW, here's the Kurdish perspective:


Turkey regrets the death of civilians in flotilla raid?

Kurdishaspect.com - By Baqi Barzani

Following raid on Gaza-bound international flotilla by Israeli naval commandos, Turkish officials and some major Islamic organizations were prompt to strongly condemn Israel for violating international laws. Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan impugned Israeli for lack of interest in resuming peace initiatives and holding no respect for the loss of human lives, in particular civilians.

Whenever Israel attempts to counteract to an external threat in self-defense, Turkey seeks to turn it into an international fiasco and manipulate it to its perk. Today, in Ankara and other major cities in Turkey, thousands of Turks took advantage of the flotilla crisis and used it as a pretext to pour into streets. They chanted anti-western slogans and burned Israel flag in protest to the raid. Anti-Semitism and prejudice, threats and attacks against innocents Jews, Christians and Kurdish ethnic citizens is soaring to unprecedented level. None of which is feasible without prior green light from the state.

http://www.kurdishaspect.com/doc060110BB.html

[NewsGuy]

No there is no such a threat from Turkey. I don't see news about it yet foreign ministry said "war is not even an option" which makes this case clear. Army or Navy wouldn't send ships with IHH even if AKP wanted to.. IHH and Military are like fire and gasoline.
Cellis, I really hope that Edrogan is voted out soon and someone sane leads Turkey to be friends with Israel again.

[Mediocrates]

Now is the time to bash them with the Armenian Genocide 24/7/365. There needs to be global mobilization on this single point. The response to every point concerning Turkey should be "What about that Armenian Genocide you committed?" All states should be pressured to sign on to the Armenian Genocide bills being floated in various countries. All countries which do not should be punished diplomatically. Admission of the Armenian Genocide committed by the Turks should be a baseline requirement for NATO membership. Turkish Armenians should be given observer status in the UN GA.

Remember the Armenian Genocide committed by the Turks. Never Forget.

[bansheee]

Cellis, I really hope that Edrogan is voted out soon and someone sane leads Turkey to be friends with Israel again.

I seriously doubt that.I am from Turkey an I couldnt understand when did this issue become our main problem.There is no way I could support religious fanatics who attack israii soldier even though I believe they should be able to control the crowd without killing anybody.

Don't get me wrong I don't like Israili policies.I just dont think that's our problem and I think attacking to armed forces with iron bars is really a bad idea

To conclude I don't believe Turkey would threaten to send the Navy for this pointless subject

Legitimacy of the operation is entirely different subject

[bansheee]

Now is the time to bash them with the
Remember the Armenian Genocide committed by the Turks. Never Forget.

Have you ever read the story they called Armenian Genocide.The events happened in those times can't be called a Genocide it can only be Massacre.Those two things have different definitions in international law.And the numbers mentioned in some web sites(like 1,5 millions) are exaggerated.We couldnt kill that many people even if we wanted to.

I mean think about it.Germany, a country with 80 million population, and heavy industry unmatched in quality, killed 6-8 millions in 12 years.We can see the plans of death camps, technical drawings of equipments and written orders

And in so called Armenian Genocide.A country with no industry at all, with a population barely reached 15 millions.There is no known written genocide order in any archives.Yet we killed 1,5 millions Armenians in a couple of months.It just doesn't make sense

Note :forgive my broken english

[Mediocrates]

I don't care about the facts I only wish to humiliate embarrass and distract them. I want to bash them in the head with it every day for the next 20 years. I want the response to every single question they ever make to include this one point. I want condemnations, I want sanctions I want drag. I want a cloud and angry bees around their heads forever. I want to insert it into every international issue. I want them to defend and explain and explain and explain and defend. I want it to be a curse them. A dreaded slog.

[Mil]

Well - it is your problem now. We can now officially welcome you into the Israeli/Arab mess. Good luck.

[Mediocrates]

Sign up Turkey as the permanent viceroys of Gaza. They own it now.

[Mediocrates]

Burning flags and screams of Turkish Terrorist outside Turkish embassy Tel Aviv. That's the spirit. Start throwing gasoline bombs at them.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137873


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3898826,00.html

[Cellis]

in your definition:
Burning flags and screaming of Jewish Terrorists in Israel and the States:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12cfVKQyrMw
in New York:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0g9ZCqQj74&feature=related

Will you gasbomb them too?

Don't get me wrong but you can't win a war with this temper and strategy (:

[Mediocrates]

You can shame them you can make them react you can make them overreact you can make them make a terrible mistake. This is a war of media, fight it that way.

[NewsGuy]

I seriously doubt that.I am from Turkey an I couldnt understand when did this issue become our main problem.There is no way I could support religious fanatics who attack israii soldier even though I believe they should be able to control the crowd without killing anybody.
Makes sense. There's no doubt that the oeration got botched by the IDF failing to be properly prepared for violent resistance. It's a serious problem that no doubt will be investigated by the IDF itself to fix the broken chain of command.

On the other hand, the fact that the "peace" activists brought weapons and trained to be "martyrs" is also something that should be seriously investigated and I have to really question the people who support these "activists."

[Mediocrates]

This was done with the knowledge of the Turkish government. IHH is plausible deniability.

[Reffo]

Israel should forget Turkey and just move on. Iran used to be an ally of Israel but now they are an enemy, life still goes on ...

I say, Israel should not waste it's energy on Turkey any more, let it be, move on and do whatever is necessary, play whatever cards that will be dealt. But remember, just as there was life after Iran, there is life after Turkey too ...

[bansheee]

I don't care about the facts I only wish to humiliate embarrass and distract them. I want to bash them in the head with it every day for the next 20 years. I want the response to every single question they ever make to include this one point. I want condemnations, I want sanctions I want drag. I want a cloud and angry bees around their heads forever. I want to insert it into every international issue. I want them to defend and explain and explain and explain and defend. I want it to be a curse them. A dreaded slog.

You really have some serious problems dude:D

[Mil]

Apparently these were mercs on the ship who might even have been hired by the Turkish establishment. Apparently Turkey already declared war.

Good luck to all you Turks and your new life under future Autollahs. Soon there will be no sex in Turkey either.

[Mediocrates]

Come back and tell me about it when Turkey has responded to calls to make full apologies and compensation for its role in genocides.

[Aliyah1995]

Israel should forget Turkey and just move on. Iran used to be an ally of Israel but now they are an enemy, life still goes on ...

I say, Israel should not waste it's energy on Turkey any more, let it be, move on and do whatever is necessary, play whatever cards that will be dealt. But remember, just as there was life after Iran, there is life after Turkey too ...

I think what will hit Turkey most is when the number of Israeli tourists there drops from Turkey being our number one destination for vacations to virtually non-existent on our vacation radar.

This has already practically happened overnight, according to "Yisrael HaYom" (wish I could find the source, but this was from the paper a couple of days ago and, at any rate, is in Hebrew).

Whether or not the Turks want to admit it, this will no doubt hit their economy in the jugular.

[Reffo]

Aliyah

True, but that will be just one of the short term penalties for them. The bigger penalty for them will occur down the track. They need to look at history and learn from it. The questions they should ask themselves is: What kinds of people use Jews as scapegoats and objects of hatred? Why do such people do that? What happens to countries who allow such people to gain power? What happens to other people after those people used up the "Jew" card?

Hint: look at what happened in Nazi Germany and look at what's happening in Iran today. Of course there are numerous other examples in history.

Of course, they will be quick to protest that they are not using the "Jew" card, they are just criticizing Israel. But they are kidding themselves. They have just substituted Israel for the Jews and made Israel the "Jew" among the nations. They singled it out for special and discriminatory treatment, as they used to do with their Jews.

[Yala]

Reffo, what's the feeling like over there in Australia? Did your PM condemn Israel too?

[Reffo]

It's a bit of a mixed bag. The government and the opposition reaction was cautious. They called for investigations and expressed regret at the loss of life but they stopped there. Some in the media (like the Herald see the thread that I posted yesterday) went, reflexively, into the blameIsraelmode. Others, like the Telegraph are more sympathetic to Israel. What's fascinating though is the obsessive preoccupation with Israel in a situation like this. The leftist media seems to go into a kind of feeding frenzy, they milk the crisis for what it's worth to bash Israel, of course by giving the impression that they are objective, but in reality presenting half truths, by omitting important relevant facts and distorting facts. I am sure you are familiar with those techniques.

Time will tell who will win in the longer term but the anti Israel voices are very shrill and quite abundant unfortunately. I am glad to say Though that there are sensible voices too ...

[Womble]

In my experience, Australians are surprisingly pro-Israeli, especially the small-town Australians. Many seem to be fascinated with the kibbutz movement.

Ynet reports that Erdogan may be considering going to Gaza himself as a blockade-runner. I wonder if the Gazans can use him as building material.

[GratefulFred]

Turkey sends it's Navy? I guess the Kurds might as well slip in as the Turks Navy will be vaporized if they crossed our borders with a warship.

It's all talk as they'd never risk it. Talk is cheap and we can just ignore it.

The UN will keep up the abuse as North Korea goes out for a lunch break.

Flotilla
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9rH0cieHEQ

[Mediocrates]

BTW you DO know Turks have blockaded Armenia for 16 years, don't you?

[Cellis]

BTW you DO know Turks have blockaded Armenia for 16 years, don't you?

No, just closed its borders after the Karabakh massacre on Azeris. Armenia doesn't have a sea coast.

[Mediocrates]

Same difference. It's a brutal racist war crime

[bansheee]

Same difference. It's a brutal racist war crime

Nope.It's the same thing israili does to Gazza and with righteous reasons(just like Israil).Armania still doesn't recognize Turkish borders.There are still some constitutional provisions that claim some of Turkish land as theirs.And just a couple of years ago one of high ranking goverment officials in Armania stated that no political party who does not support these land claims can stay in power

You can not be too friendly with a nation like this.Israil doesn't want any recources go to the hands of Hamas because... you know Hamas sends rockets to civilians and I support Israil to an extent.

[Mediocrates]

So Turkey is outraged.........because?

[bararallu]

There is really no upside to backing the state of Armenia Medio... they are soundly in the Iranian/Russian axis and would offer absolutely no strategic advantage to us (Unlike say Georgia, which we should continually court and help).

IMHO, the govt esp Peres should keep his nose out of both Armenia and Azerbaijan. Any involvement is ultimately a net negative, which ever side you go on. To boot the Armenian govt hasn't said crap vis a vis Iranian Holocaust denying/enabling screeds. Nothing at all. Reciprocally we actually owe them 0. They've also never criticized Russia for invading Georgia. The latter has been possibly the only Christian state that has virtually never prosecuted Jews or even disarmed them.

That said, if the Turks continue to escalate the situation, including directly intervening in Gaza and elsewhere our sovereignty is concerned, we should drastically escalate our own campaign to delegitimize their govt and the sovereign integrity of Turkey's land holdings. As much as it sickens me to contemplate Israel supporting the likes of PKK, if Turkey actually starts militarily supporting either the PLO or, more likely, Hamas, we should do it to the very hilt. The Armenians (State, not genocide recognition) don't offer us any advantages whatsoever, and we should avoid them like the plague.

[Mediocrates]

It's never been about backing them. It's about forcing them to deflect, defend, dissemble. It's not about Armenia, it's about making the Turks look stupid for insisting on their insane revisionist history.

BTW there was a segment on the "WW 1" from back in the 70's or '80's based on Hugh Strachan's book that deals with the military orders that forced the mass expulsion at gunpoint of millions of Armenians and the frequent massacres committed by the Turkish army per orders handed down from the highest level.

I would like to hear the Turks defend and explain that, oh, maybe one million times. And then after that, I would resurrect the same charges and start over again. Then I would like to see boycotts and walkouts at unrelated events.

[bararallu]

At the moment it really will seem self serving to open up on the Genocide issue, which I accept. It needs to be kept in the pocket, there are other fully reciprocal escalatory steps to take that will pay dividends quicker and more exact. The whole Armenian angle is fraught with issues and will actually get nothing accomplished. The only issues of note for Turkey is abandonment by Nato, getting hit economically, and insurrection by Kurds. All of which, I may add are connected. They are exercising their muscles because there is a weak American administration first and foremost. They are also on the ass side of the Iranian axis. Meaning that if someone is going to be F*, end game- it will be them. They are in precarious waters vis-a-vis the Russians, their ally Azerbaijan as well.

We should stand back from slogans and from obviously self serving announcements (all Armenian proclamations), and get deeper in Iraq. Establish our infrastructure with our allies, make sure that we dont turn our backs on some minorities (Turkmen, Assyrians) and create a very strong counter balance to the new axis of evil. On the subject, the real victory here is to completely up-end Syria... that vacuum should accomplish most things in our interest.

[Mediocrates]

So drop everything that's embarrassing to those pigs?

[bararallu]

No, certainly not. There are morals and there are strategies. For years we somehow forgot about our morals and then we woke up and found the Armenians? Practicality wise, they bring *nothing* to the table. zero. They are completely encased in the Russo-Iranian axis. There is nothing to leverage there. I dont mean to hide anything but it wont arrive at anything. No one cares about Armenians (like Jews).

The Kurds, on the other hand, and then carefully and reciprochally we can move on, we should move on. There is real net gains there whether in Iraq, Iran, Syria, and if Turkey steps on us, Anatolia.

[Mil]

Jews always supported remembrance of the Armenian genocide! It was the Armenian genocide which served as a example to Hitler Adolf. We, the Jews, of all people, have a moral obligation to remember things like this and to shame those who were involved in these events. And we know it happened!!!!! The gas chambers of Treblinka and Belzek did not begin Poland.

One of the primary reasons why Armenian genocide was kept out of the Senate and the Knesset was for Israel's sake and its strategic relationship with Turkey. I understand US also has it's own relationship with Turkey but I am sure if the Jewish community would push a little this would become official American policy - as it SHOULD!!!! Who cares about Turkey! Edrogan openly decided to change Turkey's strategic and geopolitical orientation by using JEWS!!! Where have we seen this before? If Edrogan accomplishes what he wants there will be no turning back for Turkey... if you get involved with the Arabs and their politics then that is IT!!!!

[Yala]

You guys are getting hysterical. First of all if Turkey elects Erdogan again it will go fully Islamic and this will only take the country downhill, as we can see from looking at any other Islamist country. Again, the Turks will be the ones to suffer from this crap, more than any other country times 100.

Obviously Erdogan smelled weakness from Obama and the EU, which is tied up in their financial mess. The Arabs were beckoning and Erdogan ran into their welcoming arms, but this arrangement will not bring them much of anything besides trouble. So Erdogan can show the Turks that some babies in Gaza have his name, but beyond that what can he really bring them with this new arrangement?

If anything, now that Turkey is in the limelight the PKK and Kurds are going to use it to their advantage and highlight their troubles at the hands of the Turks. Erdogan actually opened up a big can of worms for Turkey. He is trying to highlight Hamas but will end up highlighting the PKK.

[bansheee]

So Turkey is outraged.........because?

That I don't exactly know

But I can say that great many of turkish people don't like secular system and like to live in a rejime like Iran(so they can easly oppress other beliefs).These same people don't usually think about any situation just say that Israil is an evil empire and must be destroyed at any cost.I believe most(if not all)of those people in the boats fit in this description and they don't know how to be peace activists.

[bansheee]

to those pigs?

You really are a courteous person aren't you

[Mediocrates]

I really don't care either way. The Turkish government and all its leaders can take a molten steel shower in hell.

[bansheee]

I really don't care either way. The Turkish government and all its leaders can take a molten steel shower in hell.


In that , I agree with you %100

[Cellis]

Israel's enemies will send flotillas and navy vessels to gaza. what will Israel do? sink them all? Shoot them all?

[curlyg]

I agree with Yala. A lot of the reactions here are hysterical.

We have a significant interest in, if not an alliance, at least functional relations with Turkey. Don't let the current situation - or more correctly, the current leadership - provoke you into emotional responses that poison the atmosphere between Israelis and Turks permanently. Turkey is able to provide us with real tangible benefits that nobody - not the Kurds, or anybody else - can. Most directly, there are the commercial and defense ties. But Turkey is also strategically valuable, as an energy hub, and can help Israel to undercut its neighbours' oil exports to Asia, especially India and East Asia. If the Ceyhan-Ashkelon pipeline were to go ahead (together with Samsun-Ceyhan and Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan), Israel would become a transit state for Russian and Central Asian oil and gas via the Port of Eilat - meaning that Russia and the Central Asian countries could now bypass the Suez Canal (cheaper) and avoid the Suez bottleneck (faster). That's a very significant strategic asset that could help Israel to strike at Iranian oil revenues by targeting its export markets in Asia (e.g. India). And, obviously, Israel would benefit from significant transit fees. It also means Russia would have a direct economic interest in the stability of Israel.

Ultimately, Israel has a lot to lose from the breakdown of relations with Turkey. We shouldn't be jumping too eagerly to speed up the process, if there is any possibility at all that it is reversible with the next election.

[Reffo]

curlyg

But what's wrong in reacting to Turkey in the same way that the Turks currently react to Israel? And then, if the Turks moderate (big if) if a new government gets elected, then Israel would moderate IT's reaction too.

Treat them as they treat you. What would be wrong with that?

[curlyg]

curlyg

But what's wrong in reacting to Turkey in the same way that the Turks currently react to Israel? And then, if the Turks moderate (big if) if a new government gets elected, then Israel would moderate IT's reaction too.

Treat them as they treat you. What would be wrong with that?

The problem is that by attacking Turks - all Turks, in general - we make it difficult for any party to openly support Israel. It plays exactly into Erdogan's hands. When we suddenly bring up the Armenian genocide, after decades of Israel deliberately refusing to recognise it, in a blatantly opportunistic way, we harm our standing among all Turks, not just AKP. Israel should be attacking AKP, saying that it is turning Turkey into a pariah, supporting terrorists, etc. that is, attacking policy. Not attacking Turks or Turkey in general.

[Reffo]

I don't advocate attacking all Turks but while many Turks and their government spit in Israel's face, I don't advocate that Israel should just wipe the spit off it's face and pretend that it's raining.

I say: Treat those Turks who are prepared to have a reasonable discussion respectfully. On the other hand, remind those Turks who chastise Israel about Turkish history and their own treatment of their Kurdish minority. Seems only fair to me... If they want to be holier then thou, then we should bring them down to earth.

And if they cry foul about how Israel treated would be Turkish blockade busters who chose to attack Israeli soldiers then ask them how would they treat Israeli activists if they would attack Turkish soldiers while the soldiers would try to stop them from delivering supplies to Kurdish guerillas?

[Mil]

Time to recognize Armenian genocide anyways.

[wat0n]

I agree with Yala. A lot of the reactions here are hysterical.

We have a significant interest in, if not an alliance, at least functional relations with Turkey. Don't let the current situation - or more correctly, the current leadership - provoke you into emotional responses that poison the atmosphere between Israelis and Turks permanently. Turkey is able to provide us with real tangible benefits that nobody - not the Kurds, or anybody else - can. Most directly, there are the commercial and defense ties. But Turkey is also strategically valuable, as an energy hub, and can help Israel to undercut its neighbours' oil exports to Asia, especially India and East Asia. If the Ceyhan-Ashkelon pipeline were to go ahead (together with Samsun-Ceyhan and Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan), Israel would become a transit state for Russian and Central Asian oil and gas via the Port of Eilat - meaning that Russia and the Central Asian countries could now bypass the Suez Canal (cheaper) and avoid the Suez bottleneck (faster). That's a very significant strategic asset that could help Israel to strike at Iranian oil revenues by targeting its export markets in Asia (e.g. India). And, obviously, Israel would benefit from significant transit fees. It also means Russia would have a direct economic interest in the stability of Israel.

Ultimately, Israel has a lot to lose from the breakdown of relations with Turkey. We shouldn't be jumping too eagerly to speed up the process, if there is any possibility at all that it is reversible with the next election.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=gas-pipeline-may-not-be-extended-to-israel-for-economic-concerns-says-putin-2010-06-08

So Putin is saying that the pipeline may not be extended to Israel because Israel has already found its own natural gas, thus making building the pipeline not profitable.

As far as Turkey goes, I agree, Israel should be careful and wait for next elections. And if Israel loses Turkey, well, it will always be able to recognize the Armenian Genocide (it's a shame it doesn't, considering recent Jewish history, but realpolitik always wins).

[curlyg]

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=gas-pipeline-may-not-be-extended-to-israel-for-economic-concerns-says-putin-2010-06-08

So Putin is saying that the pipeline may not be extended to Israel because Israel has already found its own natural gas, thus making building the pipeline not profitable.

Yes, this has been Russia's position for some months now. But there are ways around this, if Israel really wants. The Israeli gas can be exported via the pipeline and a contract signed to import Russian gas for domestic Israeli consumption. It's fairly counter intuitive and probably not the most cost-effective arrangement - I guess it depends on just how much weight one attaches to the ability to undermine Iran's energy exports to Asia. I think being able to lower Indian dependence on Iranian energy would be advantageous for Israel.

But, I guess, the pipeline is an expensive project (around $3 billion if I recall) so I guess economics might win out.

[Mediocrates]

Israel needs to keep all of its gas. Use the money it would have spent (opportunity cost) on imports to develop something else and sell that. There's no long term geopolitical strength in attempting to co-sell energy against the Arabs. They would drop the price to zero and starve the Jews out before they gave up. In fact take some of the cost offset and build another bigger better atomic plant. And open it up to anyone who wants to see. Take another large chunk of cash work with China and India to develop a competitor to the F-35, launch more satellites and improve their ballistic missiles. And of course build the tallest building in Israel next to the al Aqsa put gigantic Israeli flags on top of it.

[Cellis]

After all Turkey WILL NOT send its navy to Gazza. Turkish military and IHH are the bloody enemies. AKP sent our military generals to jail and released the jihadists. It's that simple. And no, the opposition does not support IHH or AKP.

[Mediocrates]

Then Turkey is run by idiot buffoons. Anywhere from '50' to a hundred mercenaries get on board under Turkey's nose, after Turkey promises it will check everyone and everything going into the ships. Or the people on the ground to do that job were paid off. But we haven't heard Turkey back away from that, have we?