Arafat's successors.

[takeo]

"Marwan Barghouti
One of the most popular figures of the current Palestinian uprising, Barghouti is a senior Fatah leader in the West Bank. Schooled in Hebrew during his time in Israeli jails, Barghouti was a field Fatah leader during the first intifada of 1987, when he was deported by Israel. Barghouti, 42, has struck a chord with ordinary Palestinians. The son of a West Bank farmer, he has appeared frequently at demonstrations, funerals and in the Arab press. Israel has asked that the Palestinian Authority extradite Barghouti for questioning in connection with a number of West Bank shootings. Barghouti has denied accusations that he participates in military operations.


nr. 2: popular in peace-minded Israel and the US:

"Mahmoud Abbas
Also known as Abu Mazen, Abbas was the PLO man who signed the 1993 peace accord with Israel. He was an architect of the deal and his long contacts with Israeli leftists won him a reputation as a PLO dove. He commands respect among Palestinian officials, in United States, Israel and the Arab world as the brains behind the PLO. But he lacks Arafat's charisma and has little credibility among ordinary Palestinians. Some consider him too conciliatory toward Israel. Abbas, 66, was forced to flee to Syria with his family when Israel was created in 1948. He joined Arafat's Fatah faction in 1965. A member since 1980 of the PLO's Executive Committee, its top body, he was elected the Committee's secretary general in 1996, informally confirming his position as Arafat's deputy. "

nr.3:"Jabril Rajoub
The head of the Preventive Security Service in the West Bank, Rajoub leads one of the most powerful of the Palestinian Authority's various security agencies and has several thousand officers under his command. Rajoub, 48, earned his credentials on the Palestinian street after spending years in Israeli jails, where he also learned to speak Hebrew. He was later deported to Lebanon and then followed the PLO leadership into exile in Tunisia. From Tunis, he helped coordinate the first Palestinian intifada, or uprising, against Israeli occupation, beginning in 1987. Rajoub has been a negotiator on security issues with the Israelis under U.S. mediation. Known for his gravelly voice and dour expression, he has been frequently interviewed by Israeli media since the start of the latest Palestinian uprising."

It is clear that none of those most moderate palestinian leaders will agree with peace and security for Israel without an end to occupation and a good solution for the refugee-question. The sooner the Israeli establishment learns this, the better.
With bombing the PA (and punishing the moderate palestinians who want a just deal with Israel) you will earn nothing but more anger, more support for the terrorists and more violence, it is boring to repeat this message again and again, but some people in Israel and the US are still blind for reality. They will have to learn the hard way.
However people from the right-wing in Israel and Jewish America, to which most of you belong, claim to have other solutions to end this conflict, solutions that don't need any compromise with the palestinians but can provide peace. i would really like to know WHAT this solutions look like. Genocide of all Palestinians (seems the most effective but most dangerous for israel), eviction of all Palestinians, "separation" (does this mean putting all palestinians in big camps, does it mean dismantling the jewish settlements or how do you see this?) ???

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo

It is clear that none of those most moderate palestinian leaders will agree with peace and security for Israel without an end to occupation and a good solution for the refugee-question. The sooner the Israeli establishment learns this, the better.

...


"separation" (does this mean putting all palestinians in big camps, does it mean dismantling the jewish settlements or how do you see this?) ???

The reason that there are no true moderate Palestinian political candidates is because Arafat murdered them all so he would not have opposition.

Actually, any of those you mentioned would possibly be a lot better than Arafat because they might want to hang on to their power and get rid of the other terrorists in a power struggle. if they don't work out, then they will need to be eliminated and replaced also, maybe by someone like Sari Nusseibah, who is the only semi-sane Palestinian I've ever heard voice views.

If the Palestinians cannot come up with a leadership that can live peacefully, among civilized people, then they will need to remain without a leader until the next generation can produce a viable alternative.

[cerulean]

Interesting editorial by Charles Krauthammer of the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42673-2002Feb7.html

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by cerulean
Interesting editorial by Charles Krauthammer of the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42673-2002Feb7.html

Excellent article.

[takeo]

OK, i will not be able to respond to this post but whatever.
If Arafat will be killed or destroyed by Israel, the leaders you and krauthammer mentioned will not take over, as they have far less autority than Hamas or PFLP and would never be as powerfull in a scenario without Arafat. the only reason why they are powerfull is because they have a high position in the PA and in Arafat's esteem. their popular support however is pretty low and besides they would never cooperate with the murderers of Arafat. No doubt if Arafat disappears, the radicals will take over, and if Arafat will be murdered or evicted by Israel than this will mean a full war against Israel, not only by all palestinians without exception, but possibly as well by the neighbouring countries. For Europe and the UN it would mean to cut all political and economical ties to Israel, as it would be a state that murdered a respected and represented leader of a people, almost a president of a souvereign state.
and what next? you seem to prefere a status-quo or a fractionment of the Palestinian autority, well in reality this will mean that the radicals will take over entirely and a new full scale Intifadeh will appear as in the 80's, this time WITH guns and rockets instead of stones. You can make peace separately with some local factions but which leader will have the autority to enforce a new peace? besides very doubtfull any palestinian will negotiate without a full solution for the entire problem. Nobody will want to negociate with the murderers of arafat.
in reality it will mean full-scale war and Israel will sink further into the swamp of war without any hope of a peacefull solution. Finally it will have to withraw without a peace-treaty as it did in Libanon. i think if israel's leaders are wise, they should draw a deal with arafat before he dies. After his death (he's an old and sick man, won't live so long anymore) and without a peace-treaty most probably the radicals will become stronger as they have more popular support and the PA a lot weaker. No single palestinian will want to be the local supervisor to make the Israeli occupation easier. If that is your hope of an ideal palestinian leader, forget it. He is the man to have enough autority to make any compromise legitimate for the palestinians (as on the refugees, not all of them, or some parts of eastern Jerusalem could stay part of israel etc., and the biggest compromise at all, the parts of palestine conquered before 1967 would stay a part of israel), with other leaders, as with Hesbollah in Libanon, it will be much harder to negotiate as their lack of autority would force them to have the support of the radicals.

[takeo]

OK, now i will leave this Arabised degenerated anti-semitic country.
hasta la vista

[L@mplighterM]

Is there an echo in here or is that you takeo/Just/hass?

[takeo]

It is takeo but you won't have much more problems with me as I'm gone.
starting tomorrow you can discuss further which way would be the best to eliminate the palestinian people without my disturbing views. However i hope Mrsceptic, justsad or other dissidents who haven't lost reason that may appear will continue posting to confront you and the people who read this with your own absurdities.

[L@mplighterM]

Is Just leaving too?

[takeo]

ask him

[NewsGuy]

"No doubt if Arafat disappears, the radicals will take over, and if Arafat will be murdered or evicted by Israel than this will mean a full war against Israel"

IMHO, we are already seeing a full-scale war of terrorism against Israeli civilians, launched by Arab mass murderers, with the full support of the overwhelming majority of the Aran population.

The perceived threat that some other, worse, Palestinian leadership may arise, is no reason to stop progress by getting rid of Arafat, who we already know is a complete road-block to peace. That;s why he needs to be removed and his entire terrorist apparatus needs to be dismantled by military means.


"You can make peace separately with some local factions but which leader will have the autority to enforce a new peace?"

No reason to worry about that. As in all Arab territories, a new leadership will come to power by brute force and will bend the will of the people quickly. If the new dictatorship sees peace as a good strategy to maintain its power, then there will be no "discipline" problems among the Palestinians.


"Nobody will want to negociate with the murderers of arafat."

The only thing the new Palestinain leadership will be interested in, is maintaining pwer. Arafat will be nothing more than a distant and unpleasant memory to most Palestinians, as they suffered tremendously during his miserable tenure.

"...as with Hesbollah in Libanon, it will be much harder to negotiate as their lack of autority would force them to have the support of the radicals."

Actually, there was never a problem with authority in Lebanon. The Hizbullah terrorists are puppets of the Iran and Syria, who have made a strategic decision to support Islamic terrorism against Israel and against the entire Western world.

[takeo]

ok, i won't spoil my vacation but just a quick answer.




"The perceived threat that some other, worse, Palestinian leadership may arise, is no reason to stop progress by getting rid of Arafat, who we already know is a complete road-block to peace. That;s why he needs to be removed and his entire terrorist apparatus needs to be dismantled by military means. "

Arafat isn't a road-block to peace, Sharon is!



"No reason to worry about that. As in all Arab territories, a new leadership will come to power by brute force and will bend the will of the people quickly. If the new dictatorship sees peace as a good strategy to maintain its power, then there will be no "discipline" problems among the Palestinians. "

OK, but than this leader will have to rise to power first, and without any army or popular support that won't happen. And nobody will do business with the murderers of Arafat, if you kill him I can assure you a new leader will arise from the most radical section of the palestinian society. Arafat is the only voice still believing in peace with Israel in the palestinian society(of course not unconditionnally) , if you destroy that voice nothing but hate will be left. The first to do business with Israel after it disposed Arafat would end up with a bullet in his head quicker than he can return home, as said minister of education Hanan Ashrawi.
in fact Arafat said many times that he wanted to resume negotiations, Sharon always refused and used terror and violence, which provoked palestinian reactions and undermined the democratically elected leader (yes, elected! but i guess democracy has never been an issue for Israel). Who is the real terrorist?



There was never a problem with hesbollah, but i mean if you destroy (in both senses!) all ties and compromises to the moderates as Israel did in Libanon and is doing again in Palestine than the radicals will be the only ones who will remain. And after it becomes clear that nobody will win the war, a peacefull solution won't be possible anymore.

[takeo]

what were the latest devellopments today?

[watcher]

No worries here about araflat, those "palestinians" will always have a leader whether arafault or any of the others in the countries they came from... even if the label "palestine" is lifted off Israel and sent back the relatives who sent these "palestinians" to Israel by order of the roman empire will get upset and the terrorism will continue towards Israel until they realize it's very wrong to keep messing with the innocent.

Hopefully they will realize their wrongdoings before it's too late for them. Such a demise is never desired by Israel but if most "palestinians" and others continue their path to their own destruction they have no one to blame but themselves.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
what were the latest devellopments today?

Today, there is a major Israeli defensive action underway against Palestinian military targets, in retaliation for the murder of 5 Israeli women over the weekend and the launching of Hamas and PA-missiles into Israel.

For the first time, I've seen the Israeli DM, Fuad, say that there will be reprecussions for the Palestinian population if more missiles are shot into Israel.

[NewsGuy]

"OK, but than this leader will have to rise to power first, and without any army or popular support that won't happen. And nobody will do business with the murderers of Arafat...
The first to do business with Israel after it disposed Arafat would end up with a bullet in his head quicker than he can return home, as said minister of education Hanan Ashrawi."

Well, there are already leaders who do have the popular support, but that won't matter.

The history of the Arabs is that all they need is a bunch of Kalachnikovs and a Jeep and the willingness to slaughter all those other Arabs who oppose them. That's what's called transfer of political power, Arab style. And I trust that this will happen by the Palestinians as well.

Then, the EU and France will show up to give them a special blessing and recognition as the "legitimate" representatives of the Palestinian people. The EU will then throw a few billion euros to the Palestinians so that everyone can be bribed appropriately in all levels of government, and this is how the next Palestinian leadership will rise.

They will not worry about opposition to their negotiating with Israel because any and all opposition will be machine-gunned in the streets in the finest Arab tradition.



" if you destroy (in both senses!) all ties and compromises to the moderates as Israel did in Libanon and is doing again in Palestine than the radicals will be the only ones who will remain. "

I have never seen a moderate leadership among the Arabs, maybe with the possible exception of King Hussein of Jordan, with whom Israel has a reasonably good relationship.

In Lebanon, there was never a moderate governement, because Syria conquered Lebanon in the 80s, and is still occupying it, and has forbidden Lebanon from reaching a peace agreement with Israel.

[takeo]

Well, i checked CNN and saw that already Israel shot at a school, and of course at PA-installations. And the missile wasn't PA but Hamas.
So now Israel does for the first time admit that it takes reprisals against the whole population, which is of course in clear violation of the Geneva-conventions and a war-crime. Finally it becomes clear that when Sharon says "arafat" he means "all Palestinians". This is good news, as it will further isolate this extremist government in the world and in Israel. That bad news is that it will further provoke new violence and that the israeli nor the palestinian population will be spared. I spoke this morning with an israeli tourist here who voted for Sharon but now he admits that his policy brought more violence, not less.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Well, i checked CNN and saw that already Israel shot at a school, and of course at PA-installations.

Israel shot at a school intentionally?? I saw nothing of the sort reported on CNN. I think you are, as usual, mistaken when it comes to the facts.

But what Israeli DM, Fuad, said is that in the future, if the Palestinians continue to shoot missiles into Israeli cities, then Israel will need to blockade the Arab terrorist-infested cities and that it would make life harder for the Arab population.

Instead of complaining to Israel, the Arabs should go complain to their terrorist leaders who have brought this misery to their own people.

Part of the leftist-fascist and Arab apologists' problem is that they are never prepared to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

The Arab murderers need to learn that if they use their citizens as human shields, then there is a good chance that those people will also suffer the consequences, sooner or later.

[takeo]

"Part of the leftist-fascist and Arab apologists' problem is that they are never prepared to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions. "

Yes, they shot at a school, it didn't say it was intensionally but if the israely army is really so professional than how come this school (as well as a UN-office, don't tell me that's not on purpose!!!) which isn't near any PA-target, was destroyed?
You are the apologist, you try to apoligise all israels crimes and don't want to face the consequences and take the responsabilities of this acts. The war Israel started in 1967 will only be over if Israel withdraws completely within its borders.

"The Arab murderers need to learn that if they use their citizens as human shields, then there is a good chance that those people will also suffer the consequences, sooner or later."

That is why Milosevic is now in The Hague.
sharon should know that if he escalates the war and make the palestinians even more suffering, than this will also affect the Israeli population (international sanctions will harm every israeli, not to mention of course that more desperate palestinians will turn to suicide bombing)
Anyway, from here, on a safe distance, it becomes even more clear to me that this is one of the last colonial wars in history and that the only thing people in 30 years will remember is Israel's refusal to leave at th cost of many lifes. As it was everywhere in the world.

[NewsGuy]

"Yes, they shot at a school, it didn't say it was intensionally but if the israely army is really so professional than how come this school (as well as a UN-office, don't tell me that's not on purpose!!!)"

I still haven't seen that report anywhere, but it stands to reason that when Islamic terrorists use civilians as human shields, that sometimes things like this could theoretically happen. Bombs malfunction and there is human error. This is the case with the US campaign during the Gulf War and now in Afghanistan.

The real ones that are responsible are the Arab terrorists who hide and launch attacks from among civilans.


"You are the apologist, you try to apoligise all israels crimes and don't want to face the consequences and take the responsabilities of this acts."

No, there is no need for the victims of terrorism to apologize, or for others like me to apologize for them.



"That is why Milosevic is now in The Hague."

Really? he is at the Hague for unintentional collateral damage? I think not.


"sharon should know that if he escalates the war and make the palestinians even more suffering, than this will also affect the Israeli population (international sanctions will harm every israeli, not to mention of course that more desperate palestinians will turn to suicide bombing)"

I hope that Sharon finally will understand that it is best for Israel to take very serious action against the Palestinians. If it means devastating every Palestinian city that harbors terrorists, one by one, then so be it.

The EU's anti-Israel stance should no longer hold Israel back from defending its citizens. I wonder how many Jews must die to satisfy the Europeans. I guess the answer is till the last Jew is gone, because that is what their policies are designed to do.

On the other hand, if the Europeans would once and for all say that they will no longer tolerate Arab terrorism and actually act on it, then the war between the Palestinians and Israelis would be over in a single day.


"Anyway, from here, on a safe distance, it becomes even more clear to me that this is one of the last colonial wars in history and that the only thing people in 30 years will remember is Israel's refusal to leave at th cost of many lifes. As it was everywhere in the world."

I think that people will remember that Europe rewarded Arab terrorism because the EU are nothing but cowardly oil-slaves to the Arabs, and so with political and financial blackmail, they caused the death of thousands of innocent Jews.

I think that, in the future, people will be astonished to remember that Arab oil, which caused huge environmental damage to the world, was the reason the Europeans helped the Arabs to steal the last tiny peace of land away from the Jewish refugees of European anti-semitism.

Sorry about the dreary post, folks.

* * *

Hey, btw, takeo - how does it feel to be in Cuba where communism has robbed the people of their most basic rights to speak their minds, or even leave their country to escape the overwhelming poverty that communism has caused them?

[NewsGuy]

ok, since my last post was so depressing, here's something on this topic from another message board:

"What do you think Abdul...

Should we hide behind the women and children again?"

"Good idea, Habib... that always plays well in France and Belgium."

:D

[takeo]

very funny :rolleyes:
People in Cuba suffer because the US can't stand an independant country in its back-yarden and because US-politics is all about big money, but they still suffer a lot less than in capitalist neigthbouring puppet-countries as Jamaica or Haiti where the absolute poverty is worse than in any middle-eastern country.

"I still haven't seen that report anywhere"

just look on cnn or BBC-website.





"No, there is no need for the victims of terrorism to apologize, or for others like me to apologize for them. "

As long as Israel occupies the territories it will never be a victim but always a perpetrator.



"That is why Milosevic is now in The Hague."

Really? he is at the Hague for unintentional collateral damage? I think not. "

He is in the Hague because kosovar muslim terrorists used the villages to hide in, for this reason some villages had been bombed and destroyed.


"I hope that Sharon finally will understand that it is best for Israel to take very serious action against the Palestinians. If it means devastating every Palestinian city that harbors terrorists, one by one, then so be it. "

Next appointment in The Hague



The only thing the EU does is condamning Israel because it just ignores UN-resolutions and destroys European non-military devellopment aid to the palestinians. Only one thing will satisfy the EU, the world and the Palestinians: withdrawel from the occupied territories. It is simple and also desired by a large part of Israeli society, and it will happen sooner or later. Europe, one of the closest friends of Israel before 1967, doesn't tolerate the Israeli occupation and as long as this continues (or as long as Israel refuses to talk with Arafat about peace) Israel will not have any sympathy or help from the outside world.



"I think that people will remember that Europe rewarded Arab terrorism because the EU are nothing but cowardly oil-slaves to the Arabs, and so with political and financial blackmail, they caused the death of thousands of innocent Jews. "

No, in Algeria the french government also used words as "terrorism" from Algerian "terrorists" (freedomfighters). Today the whole, even the former allies of France, world knows that colonialism was wrong and the cause of this terrorism. The same will happen with israel. The death of 1000's of palestinians and 100's of Jews will be completely the responsablility of the occupying power nd the people behind it, as happened after the Algerian war as well, even in France.

"I think that, in the future, people will be astonished to remember that Arab oil, which caused huge environmental damage to the world, was the reason the Europeans helped the Arabs to steal the last tiny piece of land away from the Jewish refugees of European anti-semitism. "

the only thing that will happen is that Israel will go back to its internationally recognised borders of 1967, which will actually be a good thing for Israel as well (peace means economic devellopment).

[takeo]

And please don't say that you offered an end to the occupation, you offred a partial end to the occupation as a FINAL solution (and wanted the promise of Arafat not to talk about refugees anymore). Israel has to end the occupation fully, and should also obey the other un-resolutions, if it wants to become a normal peaceful country. than most Arabs will accept the UN-resolution that calls for the recognition of Israel and Europe will cooperate against terrorists who still refuse to do so.

[takeo]

And as of tomorrow i will really stop posting because in isla de la Juventud my guesthouse won't have internet i presume. (however thanks to European help and trade things do really improove fast).

[cerulean]

I haven't had a chance to fully analyze this one, but it looks interesting:

http://www.tnr.com/021802/editorial021802.html

[cerulean]

According to the Jerusalem Post, Nusseibeh, the Palestinian Authority's top official in Jerusalem, has not resigned, contrary to reports in the last couple days:

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/02/13/News/News.43355.html

It is interesting that Nusseibeh "acknowledged" a Jewish connection to Jerusalem, but I'm sure I don't know the back story to this dust-up.

[cerulean]

Haaretz reports that Arafat and Rajoub were fighting over the recent escape of Islamic militants in Palestinian Authority custody, and that Arafat may even have drawn a gun.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=129224&contrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

Again, there may be any number of reasons for the release of this story.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by cerulean
Again, there may be any number of reasons for the release of this story.

Probably Arafat is trying to fool the world into thinking that he doesn't support the wholesale release of the Arab terrorists that "escaped" from jail without any resistance at all from the Palestinian police.

So Arafat plays the good cop / bad cop routine, pretends to yell at Rajoub for letting the terrorists go, and thinks that once again the world is fooled by his "slick" move.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by cerulean
I haven't had a chance to fully analyze this one, but it looks interesting:

http://www.tnr.com/021802/editorial021802.html

It's an interesting article.

Points out the difference between Arafat, who is an irrelevant terrorist supporter, and between the Palestinian people themselves who basically are also terrorist supporters.

Says the palestinian people are even a bigger problem than Arafat alone.

I agree.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by NewsGuy

...
So Arafat plays the good cop / bad cop routine, pretends to yell at Rajoub for letting the terrorists go, and thinks that once again
the world is fooled by his "slick" move.

That's what I was thinking too, but then I wondered if I might be getting too cynical in my young age.

[Negev]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
So Arafat plays the good cop / bad cop routine, pretends to yell at Rajoub for letting the terrorists go, and thinks that once again the world is fooled by his "slick" move.

goes like this newsguy old buddy, like the other one you posted:

"hey jibril, did you let the hamas terrorists out of jail?"

"sure yasir just like you said."

"jibril, i'm going to have to shout at you now"

"but why yasir?"

"becuase it always plays well in france and belgium."

:p

[jackgreen]

It seems to me that the only reasonable post I've read here is by Takeo.

Israel is an presently undemocratic state that segregates its populations rights by their ethnicity and religion. It is similar in organization to South Africa's Apartheid regime.

Interestingly, one of the few allies of South Africa was Israel. This is not suprising as they were both countries created by foreign occupiers and at the expense, and subjugation of a local population. The south africans had two sets of laws and blacks in "self governing" unconnected townships. The israelis have similar laws and disjointed occupied areas.

If Israel is lucky it will end up like Apartheid. If it is not, there probably will be no Israel.

No foreign occupier has been able to indefinitely hold on to power. The mighty british empire in the end could not hold onto America, India or even Rhodesia. France lost to Haiti, and Algeria. The spanish lost a war to Bolivia. The Russians lost 14 thousand lives after taking a million afghani lives and left unconditionally. The U.S. and the French lost to Vietnam (the U.S. with a similar casualty ratio). The Turks were ousted by even the Albanians. The Arabs have resisted every invader in their history, even if it took hundreds of years. Where are the traces of those invaders now? Will this be the case of Israel, a bold nation disapearing without even a trace maybe a few pottery shards?

Time and time again the poorest nations on earth emerge victorious against even the most powerful. What chance will Israel have? Someday they will be in a bad position, or the U.S. will not be able to come to their aid. What then? There will be no Israel, and JFK airport will be filled to capacity.

Brute force against local populations has never worked but to unify that local population and cause the withdrawl of the more powerful aggressor. It is doing so now.

Sharon, who is a boorish brute with no sense of history never mind Jewish history, and probably headed for a war crimes tribunal some day, is playing into the same pattern that has created the downfall of colonial powers historically. He and the largely american born Israeli radicals that couldn't take the freedom of Brooklyn, created the Intifada when he entered the Haram-Al-Sharif or Temple Mount a year and a half ago. He obviously supports rolling back previous treaties and is against any peace treaty. He unified the resistance to Israel once again. The next negotiation will not be so kind.

White South Africans had the sense to see the handwriting on the wall, and for that I give them credit. They knew that eventually, a decade, a generation, or several generations, would result in a black government. If they fought them militarily to the bitter end, it would end in a massacre, or at least in a black government without their participation, and probably their forcable deportation.

What did they do? They negotiated while they were still in charge to form a multiethnic state with the protection of rights for minorities (in this case whites). What was the result? no massacres, no mass exodus, a relatively peaceful country (or at least more peaceful than during their uprising) on the way to becoming a stable nation. One man One Vote One Law.

What will Israel do? Well, they seem to be in a better position. At least they can negotiate two countries side by side and may be able to continue their racist legal system. Hopefully, with an end to racial tension they can become a peaceful progressive country. After all Arabs (of any religion) and Jews (arab and otherwise) are really cousins.

If they resist? equal citizenship (voting, land ownership, participation in the police and military) for everyone including residents of the west bank and gaza. I guess that would mean a palestinian prime minister.

If they resist more than that? Failed attempts to perpetrate a Palestinian Holocaust, Radicalization of both sides and the eventual military defeat of Israel, mass exodus, end of the Israeli state.

The palestinians are going to get what they want eventually. It's just how they are going to get it that Israelis should consider. They are not going to win. If they are going to have peace they need to make peace now, with Arafat. The best negotiation is to negotiate from strength. The Israeli position is not going to get any stronger, in fact it will get weaker.

It's all the same to me personally, Support Sharon, support writing identification numbers on the arms of palestinians rounded up, send tear gas into the maternity wards of hospitals (like after the Al-Aqsa riots in 91), kill civilians, become everything Israel was founded to combat, kill arafat. Cause more radical palestinians to take over. Cause Sharons overthrow in favor of a more radical Netanyahu, lose international support, lose thousands of lives, tens or hundreds of thousands of palestinian lives, decide they can't tolerate it and surrender just like Algeria, Afganistan, India, the Balkans, haiti, bolivia, mexico, america, the crusaders, black south africa, vietnam........

[L@mplighterM]

Comparing Israel to South Africa is like comparing apples and oranges.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by jackgreen
Israel is an presently undemocratic state that segregates its populations rights by their ethnicity and religion. It is similar in organization to South Africa's Apartheid regime.

Well, we've heard this Arab propaganda time and time again. Any Arab who doesn't like Israeli policy decides that Israel is not a democracy. This is actually pretty amusing, if you think of it, that the Arabs whose countries are ALL brutal and corrupt dictatorships, are the ones who are all of a sudden experts in re-defining democracy.

And the other typical Arab lie is the apartheid comparison. It may sound good to an illiterate and uninformed Arab audience, but not to anyone who is able to receive information freely in the Western world.

Not only is the aprtheid lie completely out of whack with reality, but one of the greatest injustices in Israel is that 1.5 million Arab enemies are presently premitted to live as equals in Israel. They are permitted to live off the backs of the Israeli taxpayer, vote for Arab ministers in the Knesset, receive welfare, municipal services -- all democratic rights which they do not have in any of their Arab countries. Still, the Arab enemies living in Israel are implicated time and time again in actively assisting suicide bombers to enter Israel and to mass murder their Israeli hosts.



The Arabs have resisted every invader in their history, even if it took hundreds of years. Where are the traces of those invaders now? Will this be the case of Israel, a bold nation disapearing without even a trace maybe a few pottery shards?

Actually, it is the Arabs who are invaders in Israel and are hostile squatters in the Jewish homeland. If you read your history correctly, you will find that it is the Jews who have defeated their enemies for thousands of years, and so it will be in the case of the Palestinian enemies, who will go the way of the Phillistines after whom they are aptly named -- a vanished civilization of barbarians.

... kill civilians, become everything Israel was founded to combat, kill arafat. Cause more radical palestinians to take over. Cause Sharons overthrow in favor of a more radical Netanyahu, lose international support,

Right, Israel should certainly kill Arafat and demolish the PA. Eradicating the Arab and Islamic terrorist machine is the duty of any Western democracy like Israel. Just like the US is doing in Afghanistan, Israel should do in Arafatistan.

As for Netanyahu, I hope that a new general elections will be called in Israel, where Netanyahu is reelected on the platform of ridding the world of all Palestinian terrorist groups, no matter what that may require.

[ibrodsky]

No foreign occupier has been able to indefinitely hold on to power. The mighty british empire in the end could not hold onto America, India or even Rhodesia. France lost to Haiti, and Algeria. The spanish lost a war to Bolivia. The Russians lost 14 thousand lives after taking a million afghani lives and left unconditionally. The U.S. and the French lost to Vietnam (the U.S. with a similar casualty ratio). The Turks were ousted by even the Albanians. The Arabs have resisted every invader in their history, even if it took hundreds of years. Where are the traces of those invaders now? Will this be the case of Israel, a bold nation disapearing without even a trace maybe a few pottery shards?

A ridiculus and false analogy. Perhaps you should try studying history. Britain, France, andf Spain were colonialists -- as were the Arabs hundreds of years earlier (indeed, their religion commands them to conquest -- they just aren't very good at it).

Israel captured the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan Heights, and the Sinai peninsula from invading Arab armies. Ironically, Israel illustrates your point: the Arab aggressors tried to take over a smaller country and in the end they were the losers. The only difference is it took tiny Israel just days to defeat them. It seems that when you are fighting for the right to live in peace you are far better motivated then those who are fighting to kill and plunder, as so many Arab states are wont to do.

Yes, Israel has been isolated by Islamic states, some of whom use oil as a foreign policy tool, and so Israel has not been able to pick her friends. However, you conveniently overloook the fact that Arab states are the most racist on earth.

Non-Muslims are not allowed to step foot in Mecca or Medinah. Arabs in North Africa buy and sell black slaves. At the Durban conference "against racism," Arab groups passed out the most vile, racist propaganda. And the Internet is brimming with Islamist sites that trumpet anti-semitic writings from NeoNazi and White Power sites.

Just today I came across a "quote" from Benjamin Franklin slandering the Jewish people. This "qoute" is a total fabrication created by White Power skinheads and gladly repeated by Palestinian terrorist supporters. Benjamin Franklin said no such thing...

The Islamists will use any lie -- whether it's claiming that Jews use the blood of non-Jews to prepare holiday pasteries or that George Washington warned the country against the "Jewish menace" -- just like their Nazi allies from World War II.

As we saw so graphically in Ramallah, it is the Palestinians who love to bathe in their victim's blood. And it is Islamists in Pakistan who cut off a Jews' head. And again, Islamists in India torched a train full of women and children.

Any half decent person can tell who the barbarians are.

[victot]

No foreign occupier has been able to indefinitely hold on to power.

That's sorta the thing man... jews don't consider themselves "foreign occupiers" of israel... the jewish people, also known amongst other names as israel... see israel as their land, and have for thousands of years.
even asides from the religious and historical aspect of it, when israel was created in 1948, the jews were coming out of the ruins of the holocaust, they had no other home.
this is a well-known reason why the jews were able to defeat the palestinians, as well as 5 other arab armies in their war of independance; they had no other place to go, they were fighting for their existence.

and i gotta say... given that israel is a tiny country fighting numerous countries totalling hundreds of times both their geographic and population size for its very existence... as well as being neighbors with enemies who encourage and cheer the bombings and killings of innocent israeli civilians, even children, israel has been remarkably civilized and moral throughout their history.

i don't know why people like you speak like israel is some great evil. for someone who seems to know their history, can you figure out why the jewish people might consider it important to have a homeland of thier own?

if the few jews in this world have their historic and biblical tiny sliver of a homeland already halved so it can be shared with yet another arab country,
there should be more pertanant injustices in the world to focus on then the rules of israel which try to maintain itself as being the jewish homeland.

also, if you think israel wouldn't make painful concessions so it could have peace with its neighbors, you are wrong... what do you think barak was up to?

and oh yeah...
sharon wasn't the cause of the frikking intifada.

[Flame]

Didn't the original Holy Land include the area where Jordan is???? And for invaders and foreigners being Jewish.... ha ha.... guess what Medina's history is???? I don't know all the details but I do know that the area was a large and thriving Jewish community.... muslims have been invading Jewish cities for a thousand years... raze it to the ground and build mosques on top of it.... by the way just remember islam is the new kid on the block... doesn't even qualify as being ancient.... even though so many arabs act as if they were living in ancient times. Do the world a favor, join the 21st century with the rest of the world.

[NewsGuy]

Again, it looks like another Palestinian makes a party-line propaganda speech and then disappears into Kafia-vapor just as soon as others shoot down the Arab propaganda.

[McSceptic]

Propaganda? Which bit?

The South African comparision is an interesting one, as towards the end of their time in power, the SAs came up with the idea of Bantustans. This would give the black South Africans a windblown bit of dirt to call their homeland (one for each major "tribe") where they would have full voting rights. The 'stan for the whites was of course the rest of the country (vineyards, goldmines etc).

This was the only way the South Africans could see themselves holding power and extending democratic rights to all citizens. The black South Africans weren't buying of course.

The Israeli proposals for the West Bank seem to follow a similar logic (I admit I haven't read them all, will get round to it), dividing it up into Arab and Jewish areas. We've seen where that leads practically when the other side isn't buying.

The alternative of annexing the West Bank and giving everyone the vote would mean the extinction of a "Jewish" Israel.

Which leaves the third option, "transfer" is I believe the preferred euphemism.

[L@mplighterM]

Comparing Israel to South Africa is like comparing apples and oranges.

[McSceptic]

I'd agree, they're both fruit. What's your point caller? (as we say on our football phone-ins).

Are you suggesting there are no similarities between South Africa's situation and that of Israel's?

[L@mplighterM]

That's exactly what I'm saying and I'm not going to help to point out the differences. It's a black and white type of a situation and I'm not into spoon feeding.

[McSceptic]

Then let me fill you in:

Two first world polities.
Both facing numerically superior third world opponents.
Time running out due to demographic change and a faltering self-belief.

Both seek/sought to redraw with maps, what they couldn't achieve with facts on the ground.

Israel has some way to go (and I don't think it will be the Palestinians alone who will bring them down) but I'd bet it won't last SA's four hundred years.

I'd bet on a hick Dutch farmer to not know where his best interests are (New Zealand) ahead of a smart Israeli (California).

[L@mplighterM]

Specifically what map are you talking about? There was no geographic boundery disputes in S.Africa with other states.

South Africa was South Africa!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In Israel there never was a well defined territorial map. In any event if the territories have to be given up they should revert to Eqypt and Jordan.

Since Aparthied ended there's been horrendeous crimes commited against whites (I'm including all colors that are not native to that part of Africa). If Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza Strip the same thing would happen in Israel.

Not only that MANY natives there are not playing with a full deck and their disregard for life equals that of many Palestinians.

The latest craze in SA is raping infants in an attempt to rid themselves of disease. In Israel Palestinians kill little children intentionally.

Let's not forget that Arabs make up a part of the Israel Government.

[McSceptic]

This was in the 1970s and 1980s when white rule was still in place. All the divisions into Bantustans were within SA itself. It was a way of avoiding facing up to demographic realities.

The parallels aren't exact of course, but they show how limited playing around with the geographies is when the other side won't buy into it.

I think Israel would be better off getting rid of the territories. It's a slow demographic slide otherwise.

But then we're back to the question of whether Israel is a modern state or some messianic project (in which case not an inch, and we'll all go to Heaven in a pie-dish).

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by McSceptic
I think Israel would be better off getting rid of the territories. It's a slow demographic slide otherwise.

But then we're back to the question of whether Israel is a modern state or some messianic project (in which case not an inch, and we'll all go to Heaven in a pie-dish). [/B]
No, we're not back to that question, because since 1948 Israel has been practically begging the Arabs to accept Jewish land in exchange for peace.

In fact, since 1993 till the present, the Arabs have been offered even more Jewish land than ever.

The problem is not Israel's willingness to hand over "the territories" to the Arabs, it is that the Arabs never accepted Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state in ANY of the land of Israel.

The only messianic project in the Middle East is the Arabs' Jihad genocide campaign.

[McSceptic]

You make my point for me by referring to "Jewish land" (not even Israeli land!). Land isn't Jewsih, Neanderthal, German or anything else. It's just land.

Therefore all human claims to it are qualified. For example, as you suggest by majority Arab resistance to Israel existing.

Then it's down to a battle of wills, which is where we came in, with the South African experience.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by McSceptic
Then it's down to a battle of wills, which is where we came in, with the South African experience.

It does indeed come down to a question of will and military might.

I would love to believe that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict could be resolved through negotiations. But that is simply not realistic. The overriding goal of militant Islam is to destroy Israel. Of course they would accept a peace deal that includes relocating one million (or more) Arab "refugees" to within Israel, because they know that it would be a most powerful Trojan Horse.

Zinni's bridging proposals, the Tenet Plan, the Mitchell Plan, the Oslo Peace Process -- it is all a pathetic charade. The Palestinians will agree to a cease-fire for the same reasons that various Arab states, at various times, have agreed to a cease-fire with Israel: because they have had enough losses.

Comparing Israel, which has been attacked since it was founded by forces that have openly said their goal is to "Drive the Jews into the sea," with South Africa and its abandoned apartheid system is grossly unfair. The goal of Israel is not to exploit Arabs, but to live in peace with them.

Really, it's militant Islam that yearns to impose an apartheid system on the Jews. Just as they have done in Arab countries. It was Arab groups, not Jewish groups, that came to the Durban conference armed with racist literature.

[McSceptic]

Did you seem the comment in part of the Newsweek article posted on another thread?

“As far as Arabs are concerned, if you don’t give them the right to vote, you don’t have a demographic problem,” says retired general Effi Eitam, who’s emerging as a rising star in the right-wing firmament. He has no problem denying even a Palestinian majority its civil rights. He says they could accept municipal autonomy or, if that’s not enough, create their own state in neighboring Jordan and Egyptian Sinai.

That’s exactly the approach the white South Africans took. It’s also the same approach the Americans took to their black population (“How many bubbles in a bar of soap?”), and a little earlier, the British took to Catholics. They all failed, of course. By damming up popular resentment, and not giving it an outlet you create an explosive situation.

(But I think given the chance, the Arab regimes would do much worse than simple Apartheid).

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by McSceptic
Did you seem the comment in part of the Newsweek article posted on another thread?

“As far as Arabs are concerned, if you don’t give them the right to vote, you don’t have a demographic problem,” says retired general Effi Eitam, who’s emerging as a rising star in the right-wing firmament. He has no problem denying even a Palestinian majority its civil rights. He says they could accept municipal autonomy or, if that’s not enough, create their own state in neighboring Jordan and Egyptian Sinai.

This is a red herring.

Is the current Palestinian war against Israel and the Jews the result of a retired general's views? These are one citizen's opinions, not government policy. Arabs in Israel have the right to vote -- a right they do not enjoy in Arab countries. Israel offered the PA its own state with 96% of the West Bank and East Jerusalem as its capital.

We could also point to the murderous views of the leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. These views, however, are part of official PA policy.

That’s exactly the approach the white South Africans took. It’s also the same approach the Americans took to their black population (“How many bubbles in a bar of soap?”), and a little earlier, the British took to Catholics. They all failed, of course. By damming up popular resentment, and not giving it an outlet you create an explosive situation.

You have condemned the Israeli government based on the opinions of a private citizen...

The real point is that the Palestinian people are being misled by their own leaders. Even during the height of Oslo, the Palestinian people didn't have an outlet for expressing their opinions, not because of Israel, but because of Arafat's corrupt thugocracy.

(But I think given the chance, the Arab regimes would do much worse than simple Apartheid).

Glad to see you aren't completely unaware. While a retired Israeli general expressed what you consider extreme opinions, those opinions haven't been systematically taught to Israelis by their government, schools, media, and synagogues.

[McSceptic]

Yes, I recognise Arabs in Israel proper get the vote, and I have to say I'm quite impressed that that is the case.

The apartheid element enters in because Israel controls the West Bank, and has for nearly two generations. The Arab majority there don't get the vote, but the Israelis do. That situation isn't tenable.

[L@mplighterM]

Seems to me that the Palestinians had/have a right to vote. Arafat was elected their glorious leader. Should Palestinians have/had the right to vote for two leaders??

Palestinians have more democratic rights in the West Bank and Gaza Strip than in other Muslim/Arab states.

Is anyone suggesting that its Israel’s fault that the Palestinians elected a leader that is leading them down the garden path to hell?

Blacks in Africa were/are always their own worst enemy and that continues to be the case. Ethnic cleansing is a way of life on that continent.

I think the same analogy (they are their own worst enemies)can be made regarding Arabs/Muslims.

[jackgreen]

1) Some posters have "accused" me of being a palestinian. I am not a palestinian or an arab. I am an American. Not everyone who is against what israel is doing is an arab. In fact many of the people against it are Israelis, Jews, and ordinary americans. I am from a _real_ democracy, and I know a democracy when I see one. I don't see one in Israel any more than I see one in Iraq. They are all the same to me. At least is a so called "undemocratic" country like lebanon there at least the shadow of equal representation of religious groups in the government, despite the Israeli invasions attempt to change it. Israel could learn something from their backwards neighbors.

2) Your race baiting (considering you got my race wrong), shows how self destructive a state Israel has become. The conflict is geopolitical between the refugees of world war II the local palestinians, and the neighboring arab countries. Religion is what is used to whip up the masses. There are, don't forget, many arab christians. They are as anti-israeli as anyone. In the US the arab population is majority christian. None of them support Israel. Turks (a muslim nation) almost universally support Israel. Saying that supporting Israeli racist policies is un-jewish is an insult to Jews.

3)I think the comparisons between Israel and South Africa are obvious. Two sets of laws for two people. Colonization, the fragmented PA territories, invaded continually by Israeli troops are pretty much the same as South African "township" system where they considered it a different "country" but just use that to deny them the right to vote.

4) Muslims have not been razing jewish cities for centuries. Under the Ottomans, Jews lived more peacefully than at any time in their history. Lodino Jews forced out of Spain were welcomed as an educated, peaceful, persecuted, monotheistic group. Jews in Turkey recently celebrated 500 years of peaceful living there. It is the Christian Europeans you should be making this argument against, yet Israelis are aligned with the U.S. Why? because it really has nothing to do with the history of two thousand years ago. It has everything to do with geopolitics today. You pick and choose your history as you pick and choose your allies.

5) If you don't beleive Islam is "ancient" and a valid religion are you saying the people have no right to live there? That your right to exist depends on your religion? You are proving my point. Israeli Law is racist.

"many arabs act as if they were living in ancient times."
So they weren't living in ancient times? That must be one great story about the ancient Israelites escaping from an unpopulated Egypt. Not quite as heroic with your beleifs.

Obviously they came from somewhere and have been living there for an eternity. Obviously their history there has been a continual fact, not just some fairy tale out of religious mythology. Does your argument extend to christians can you exterminate them too because you beleive your religion is older and therefore superior. I beleive the germans had a similar philosophy. There were arabs there when the Jews were there thousands of years ago. Jews, are in fact Arabs pretty much. Do you think that none of the people who live there had ancestors there, or even ancestors that were jewish? Dream on.

Israel was not founded in some land of people who recently showed up. It was found _by_ people who recently showed up. The rest is a pleasant mythology. People who at that point were more russian or german, or arab than Jewish. It's very nice to go on about the Torah and everything. But the argument that the Arabs should be happy to leave and aren't a people with claims to the land is silly

Why does the arguments here assume that Arabs and Israelis can't live with each other? Is it just that racist Israeli radicals can't and that they dominate the discourse? Obviously they lived together peacefully for thousands of years (yes thousands as arabs existed even before they were muslim OR Christian)

6) Don't forget that Judaism is based on the more ancient religion of the Babylonians Assyrians and Sumerians the decendents of whom are the Iraqis and Syrians. The story of Noah is lifted straight out the Epic of Gilgamesh, a civilization that predates that of the jews by 20 thousand years. In comparison I guess you could say that Judaism is the new kid on the block. The story of Adam and eve is almost a direct retelling of the Altaic creation myth also predating Judaism by tens of thousands of years. Learn your ancient history.

7) The belief that Palestinians should beleive in Zionism, that they should beleive that they don't belong anywhere (by your logic), that they are inferior is not only ridiculous but will end in the downfall of Israel. The only philosophy that is going to help Israel survive is that of making total peace, and either equality or bi-nationalism. The Liberal, racially tolerant Israelis that remember the Holocaust and it's perpetrators will win out and create peace. They will benefit from living amongst arabs like Jews have for centuries. They are the only thing saving Israelis from slowly becoming the people they escaped from when they entered Palestine fifty years ago. It enrages Israelis to be called racist, and it should. I think it is noble in fact and it would scare me even more if they were proud to be racist. Many Israelis don't want to go down that path, and destroy their own history.

The radical israeli right, with their ideas of racial superiority, violence, and segregation are the only thing that will cause the downfall of Israel. They are dinosaurs and they will go the same way as every occupier trying to eradicate a local population with no where to go. The crusaders thought they had ancient claims too.

Originally posted by Flame
Didn't the original Holy Land include the area where Jordan is???? And for invaders and foreigners being Jewish.... ha ha.... guess what Medina's history is???? I don't know all the details but I do know that the area was a large and thriving Jewish community.... muslims have been invading Jewish cities for a thousand years... raze it to the ground and build mosques on top of it.... by the way just remember islam is the new kid on the block... doesn't even qualify as being ancient.... even though so many arabs act as if they were living in ancient times. Do the world a favor, join the 21st century with the rest of the world.

[jackgreen]

Your statements are plainly racist. You are a racist.

Blacks are this way or that way. Arabs are this way or that way.

Muslims are this way or that way.

You even use "ethnic cleansing" with glee.

Ethnic Cleansing was a term used as a euphamism for "genocide".

How can you glorify racism and genocide, and then use it to justify the existence of israel? How distasteful.

The racist government in south africa deserved to fall. I guess you would want it back. Nice to know where you stand, at least you are consistent.

Learn the lesson that was played out there. Glorification of racism and genocide will be the downfall of Israel, a state founded by the horrors of racist and genocide.

Creating a puppet state, without rights in the west bank is not democracy, it is not self determination. The reason Arabs are unhappy, even the ones who are citizens of Israel, is because they are not considered equal, they are not given full status and self determination. They will fight you to the bitter end. That is the end of Israel anyway.

I have never been so confident in my entire life that Israel's days are numbered. There is no indication that there is going to be any conclusion outside of the dissolution of Israel. Obviously it cannot continue like it is (for the Israelis). The Palestinians are given the choice of not existing, which is a pipedream. Israelis should start changing the signs to Arabic now and save themselves some time. They are running scared. People are like a spring. The more Israelis push the more the palestinians push back. You can see the panic in the media Israeli and American, and in the faces of the Israeli right wingers. They don't know what to do because the only tool they have is the military and it is not working. They killed hundreds more and now the situation is even more violent, even more intolerable for the Israelis. Never have the Palestinians been more willing to fight. Politically Israel is more of a liability than an ally. We have general Sharon to thank.

President Arafat, is their elected leader. The palestinians love him. The Israeli propaganda of 40 years that he is not their real leader and has no real authority has been dissolved by an election. Get with the times. He may be widely disliked by the Israelis but that is because he is effective. He has caused the overthrow of countless Israeli "presidents" without the need of a single Arab vote. He, and the palestinians, are in a win-win situation. The more Israelis fight, the more get killed, the sooner they will pull out. In the end the Palestinans will get everything they want. Just be happy they only want the 1967 borders back.

I won't say that jews/israelis are their own worst enemies because of a history of being kicked out of every country in the world like you would have said about blacks and arabs. I'll say that the Israeli right is israels worst enemy.

In the meantime long live the sensible Israelis that want to peacefully coexist with their neighbors.



Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Seems to me that the Palestinians had/have a right to vote. Arafat was elected their glorious leader. Should Palestinians have/had the right to vote for two leaders??

Palestinians have more democratic rights in the West Bank and Gaza Strip than in other Muslim/Arab states.

Is anyone suggesting that its Israel’s fault that the Palestinians elected a leader that is leading them down the garden path to hell?

Blacks in Africa were/are always their own worst enemy and that continues to be the case. Ethnic cleansing is a way of life on that continent.

I think the same analogy (they are their own worst enemies)can be made regarding Arabs/Muslims.

[jackgreen]

"It does indeed come down to a question of will and military might."
Or, as George Bush senior learned: money.

Threaten to cut off aid and the Israelis folded immedieately and negotiated after decades of nothing.

" The goal of Israel is not to exploit Arabs, but to live in peace with them. "

So stop exploiting them. Pretty easy.

"It was Arab groups, not Jewish groups, that came to the Durban conference armed with racist literature."

It was the whole world that came to the Durban conference claiming that Israeli policy is racist. The whole planet was in favor it minus Israel and it's patron state the U.S. The whole planet. Get the message? There's hardly a person on this planet who can't see it. Strangely, some Israelis can't.


Originally posted by ibrodsky


It does indeed come down to a question of will and military might.

The goal of Israel is not to exploit Arabs, but to live in peace with them.

It was Arab groups, not Jewish groups, that came to the Durban conference armed with racist literature.

[Shuki]

Originally posted by jackgreen
"It does indeed come down to a question of will and military might."
Or, as George Bush senior learned: money.

Threaten to cut off aid and the Israelis folded immedieately and negotiated after decades of nothing.

" The goal of Israel is not to exploit Arabs, but to live in peace with them. "

So stop exploiting them. Pretty easy.

"It was Arab groups, not Jewish groups, that came to the Durban conference armed with racist literature."

It was the whole world that came to the Durban conference claiming that Israeli policy is racist. The whole planet was in favor it minus Israel and it's patron state the U.S. The whole planet. Get the message? There's hardly a person on this planet who can't see it. Strangely, some Israelis can't.


Jack, you have written quite a long string among your many posts, and I am sure that you mean well, but I think that some of your conclusions are flawed.

I don't want to waste time reviewing each and every point, so lets just cover some. First, the Durban conference is a joke. It is misleading and unreasonable to say that the entire world came to vote against Israel, it simply is not true.

Let's take a step back and look at the Arab oil cartel. The sad truth is that without oil the ME would in the eyes of the world turn into Africa. Without oil the US might very well have told the corrupt Saudis just what they can do with themselves.

With the power they get from their oil reserves they have been able to bully and push UN and world opinion in certain directions, but it does not mean that they are right.

Continued

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by jackgreen


Or, as George Bush senior learned: money. Threaten to cut off aid and the Israelis folded immedieately and negotiated after decades of nothing.

Israel received no US aid prior to 1973. After that, Israel received US "aid" for providing intelligence on the battlefield performance of Soviet weapon systems.

I would gladly see the US end aid to Israel -- as long as it ends aid to Egypt, the PA, and other Arab thug regimes at the same time.

" The goal of Israel is not to exploit Arabs, but to live in peace with them. "

So stop exploiting them. Pretty easy.

Give us one example of how Israel "exploits" the Palestinians. If there were an easy way to completely separate from them, Israel would have done so a long time ago. You make lots of assertions, but the only thing you have to back them up are your prejudices.

"It was Arab groups, not Jewish groups, that came to the Durban conference armed with racist literature."

It was the whole world that came to the Durban conference claiming that Israeli policy is racist. The whole planet was in favor it minus Israel and it's patron state the U.S. The whole planet. Get the message? There's hardly a person on this planet who can't see it. Strangely, some Israelis can't.

Numbers don't determine right and wrong. Morality does.

The whole world? Most of the world -- particularly the Arab/Moslem world -- are dictatorships that wouldn't know racial tolerance if they saw it.

You conveniently ignored the fact that Arab groups came to the Durban conference with virulently anti-semitic literature. I wonder why... And maybe the US has no credibility in your eyes. After all, why should you be impressed with the world's freest and most prosperous country?

I don't know your race, and I don't care, but it's obvious you have a personal ax to grind.

[Shuki]

Originally posted by Shuki

Continued

If you say that the Knesset is completely populated by Jewish members, than you really are showing your ignorance. I am not interested in doing more than pointing out that there are Arab MKs. Israeli elections are open and free.

Why don't you ask Mubarak, Abdullah, Hussein, and company when they plan on holding elections for office. While you are at it ask them if they ever plan on providing facilities for a free press.

Israel is not perfect, but we can give an affirmative answer to the questions above. Citizens can strive for office, the media can freely criticize the gov't without fear of imprisonment or reprisal.

I am not a Muslim basher, but anyone with historical knowledge knows that the Muslims went through Israel building Mosques on top of churches, synagogues and Har-Ha-Bayit, the Temple Mount. Many times making the claim that the land was now a Muslim holy site, as if their claim over rode everyone elses.

The truth is that if I wanted to be obnoxious and bash Muslims the fundamentalist strain that appears to be everywhere is doing a terrific job of that.

Have you ever wondered why the Egyptians and Jordanians didn't offer the Palestinians any land, namely Gaza and the West Bank. They had control, but never gave it to the Pals. I wonder why.

Have you ever wondered why King Hussein ran Arafat and his thugs out of Jordan. Did it ever cross your mind that the refugees could have been offered citizenship in the countries they live in.

Yes, I understand that refugee implies that they may have somewhere to return to. But, practically speaking when the doors to Israel did not open, you would think that the "host countries" might do something to encourage said refugees to become productive citizens, instead of keeping them in camps.

But if they did that it would be harder to foster anger and hatred against Israel.
for however long they ar e

[L@mplighterM]

Your statements are plainly racist. You are a racist.

Blacks are this way or that way. Arabs are this way or that way.

Muslims are this way or that way.

You even use "ethnic cleansing" with glee.

Ethnic Cleansing was a term used as a euphamism for "genocide".

How can you glorify racism and genocide, and then use it to justify the existence of israel? How distasteful.

Don’t shoot the messenger because that’s all I am. The Palestinians aren’t citizens of Israel they are all guaranteed Jordanian citizenship.

There’s no civilization that preceded the Jewish civilization by 20,000 years and left recorded history. That’s pure nonsense.

Unfortunately Muslims are this way or what way. Every poll that ever seen conducted in the Muslim world shows that they are anti Israeli or anti American by an overwhelming majority and support terrorists like your elected leader.

If you are suggesting that I have ever written that I support ethnic cleansing then you are wrong.

Contrary to the way things are done in your society we put criminals in jail and take away their right to vote.

I don’t know what you find distasteful perhaps it’s the fact that you kind haven’t eliminated Jews off the face of the world. Stick a finger down your throat and puke perhaps it’ll make you feel better.

[Flame]

Spinning words like deportation or re-location into "ethnic cleansing" gives it that extra zing. Give me a breadk what ever your name is... taking a 10 min hike across the border is hardly ethnic cleansing.

[jackgreen]

I was going to apologize for calling you a racist, as it is a very harsh word. However the fact is your response is much the same.

You end it with "perhaps it's the factyour kind haven't eiminated the jews.."

My kind? You don't even know my kind. More prejudice.

I grew up with Jews, I love Jews. I am not ashamed to say it. I am proud of it. What you are proposing is anti-jewish. Everyone who disagrees with Israeli Policy isn't a Nazi out to perpetuate a holocaust. Perhaps you have not known anyone outside your small community who isn't that way. If so I am truly sorry for you. I don't support Israeli actions because they are defiling the history and memory of the Jews, for a grab for power and settling land inhabited by other people that they don't even need for their security.

There are, rhetoric aside, many pieces of evidence that the Babylonian King Gilgamesh, who's empire precedes that of any other organized society was an actual king. It is his story that the epic of gilgamesh and the flood of 40 days and 40 nights with a dove and an olive branch comes from. It of course predates any written copy of the torah, or even of archaological evidence of the Hebrews. The line of kings listed in these texts has been shown to be flawless in light of archaelogical evidence. The line of kings would go back approximately 25 thousand years. Their decendents of course are the Arabs as well as the Hebrews, they are of course both basically semites. Modern science has shown us some amazing things.

Amongst these things, genetic studies have shown us that the mummies entomed in egypt have a nearly identical genetic relationship to modern egyptians. This has quelled once and for all assertions about whether ancient egyptians were black or white, or any of the many people that seek to take the mantle of their ancient history.

Also, I beleive there has been a study looking at all of the Cohens in the world, which as we know are decended patrilineally from an original forefather who guarded the Temple. The study showed that Indeed all Cohens, are decended from a common ancestor, even the ones from Ethiopia.

Who knows? Modern science may show us many things. It certainly has shown us that many stories from the bible and other texts may be based on actual people and events. I think we'll all have to take a big gulp when we find out who is related to whom in the middle-east. Personally I think it would be a hoot if we found Sharon and Arafat were related. It would explain a lot.



Originally posted by L@mplighterM
[B]

Don’t shoot the messenger because that’s all I am. The Palestinians aren’t citizens of Israel they are all guaranteed Jordanian citizenship.

There’s no civilization that preceded the Jewish civilization by 20,000 years and left recorded history. That’s pure nonsense.


I don’t know what you find distasteful perhaps it’s the fact that you kind haven’t eliminated Jews off the face of the world. Stick a finger down your throat and puke perhaps it’ll make you feel better.

[watcher]

Originally posted by jackgreen
I grew up with Jews, I love Jews. I am not ashamed to say it. I am proud of it. What you are proposing is anti-jewish. Everyone who disagrees with Israeli Policy isn't a Nazi out to perpetuate a holocaust. Perhaps you have not known anyone outside your small community who isn't that way. If so I am truly sorry for you. I don't support Israeli actions because they are defiling the history and memory of the Jews, for a grab for power and settling land inhabited by other people that they don't even need for their security.

Israel is a tiny sliver of land among vast arab lands and the arabs want that land through arabs named "palestinians" when they were moved to Israel and the land renamed "palestine". Israel rightfully reclaimed their land once again now the arabs want to take it away again! If you want to talk about a grab for power and settling land that belongs to other people look at the arabs, then look at the temporary plight of Israel at the hands of murderers. Temporary because the lawless will be shamed once again if not completely destroyed if they continue to pursue their unholy war.

Originally posted by jackgreen
I think we'll all have to take a big gulp when we find out who is related to whom in the middle-east. Personally I think it would be a hoot if we found Sharon and Arafat were related. It would explain a lot.

If that were the case arafat might immediately commit suicide if he found himself related to those who have the Law instead of those who think they're above the Law.

[victot]

I have never been so confident in my entire life that Israel's days are numbered. There is no indication that there is going to be any conclusion outside of the dissolution of Israel... ...Israelis should start changing the signs to Arabic now and save themselves some time.


i don't like the way you said that. if you are so wise and righteous that you can sit in the usa and declare what the absolute morality of such a complicated situation is, then you can at least show some respect to the people in an israel forum. you think people here aren't worried about the existence of israel, particularly these days? you think you're a genius in determining that israels' very existence is in danger?


1)israel is a democracy in the sense that people vote to determine their leader. jews and arabs in the country vote to determine who will lead them. they don't have 1 guy dictating over the people continuously for decades...

2)accusing you of being arab or palestinian is indicative of nothing... don't try to make it seem that its origins are related to some kind of sinister israeli-mentality thing

(and not all arab-christians are against israel...)


3)yes, there are some similarities between israel and south africa... but there are tremendous extenuating circumstances that should not be overlooked. try to think of some of them, c'mon. it's not the same thing.

4) don't know so much about this... but i know jews weren't treated terrificly in muslim countries throughout the ages.

5) islam is ancient, and has the potential to be a swell religion. i just think israel belongs, for the most part, to jews...
islamic countries have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times more land then jews.
(from http://www.usisrael.org/jsource/Zionism/Zionism_Is_Not_Racism.html)
"It is almost impossible to become a naturalized citizen in many Arab states, especially Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Several Arab nations have laws that facilitate the naturalization of foreign Arabs, with the specific exception of Palestinians. Jordan, on the other hand, instituted its own "law of return" in 1954, according citizenship to all former residents of Palestine, except for Jews."

why must you pick on israel of ALL countries?

(and by the way, jews are jews, it seemed that you were trying to imply otherwise or something)

6) somewhat irrelevant... but this kinda thing interests me... people have theories about what religions or otherwise judaism is based on... it's not an absolute truism/known fact that judaism is based on any other known religion... this type of thing is debated all the time.
ps. it is estimated that civilization only developed on earth 10,000 years ago, i think some of your numbers are off.

7)if i were a palestinian, i wouldn't love the idea of zionism. however, zionism as a philosophy affects such a minute percentage of the world... just the few thousand square miles of israel. arabs who happenned to be living in that land in 1948 should be compensated, given land, freedom... (jordan? west bank?) they were victims of something unfortunate...
but the creation and existence of israel is and was never based on something evil or sinister.

i personnally wish the arabs and their ancestors who were residing in israel/palestine in 1948 nothing but the best... but i do want there to be a jewish state within the biblical land of israel with mostly jewish citizens.

its not part of jews or judaism, or right wing israeli politicians philospohy to believe that jews are a superior race, merely a distinct race.

hopefully in the near future, in a more perfect world, the palestinians can have their own state, and be happy and live peacefully side by side with israel. no puppetering is necessairy.
wasnt barak trying to work this out?


it's not about genocide, or ethnic cleansing. there is no sliding scale of morality here. people born of a jewish mother have their identity, someone born of an islamic mother/father (and haven't converted to judaism) have their own identity with their own prviledges.

i want the world to be at peace. i just want every people to have their own space of land, which respects their unique ancestory.
there should also be countries like canada and the usa where races and people come togather. just every people should have their own homeland, in my opinion, in a perfect world.

Glorification of racism and genocide will be the downfall of Israel, a state founded by the horrors of racist and genocide.

that's really an unfair representation of israel... and for someone who lives in the luxury of the usa of all places, it's sorta hypocritical to say that in such a self-righteous way.

ummm, arafat is evil. israel isnt jelous of arafat or his "effictiveness." they hate him because he organizes suicide attacks against israel, killing innocent civilians...
i'm not a fan of sharon, but he is less evil then arafat.


jackgreen, i think you are unfairly villifying israel, i don't think you fully understand its history, or the history of the jewish people...
i think israel has been quite fair given the circumstances of the middle east...
i don't think you have ever been to israel, or spoken with israelis, right wing or left, i think you dont know what they truly think.

i think you are assuming an awful lot, and i think you should be less casual with your talk of the inevitability of the destruction of israel.

finally, it is worth mentioning that all of israel's offical signs are in hebrew, arabic, and english.

[L@mplighterM]

Actually I ended up with:

Stick a finger down your throat and puke perhaps it’ll make you feel better.

As far as your kind goes let me tell you I can smell Islamic Fundamentalist or their supporters and they stink. One thing is that they all love is Jews then comes the but.

[Flame]

Victot... islam is an ancient religion???? ITs the new kid on the block.. Christianity and Buddaism are 500 years older ... the islam are still acting and living as 1500 hasn't passed, that is there dream... to live in a world the way it was when that pervert mohamad was alive.

[L@mplighterM]

Buddhism started around the sixth century around the same time as the Koran was written. Confucianism, Hinduism and Japanese sun worship should in my opinion only be considered ways of life at least that’s the way I see it.

Judaism is the oldest religion, which I consider monotheistic because there’s only one G_d. Christianity also embraces one creator and is really a religion that borrows part of the Old Testament (the Torah) from Judaism.

If one considered religions with deities and philosophical ways of life as religions then surely atheism would be the oldest religion.

[Leviathan]

Atheism isn't the oldest religion. I'm pretty sure Adam was a monotheist and I'm also reasonably confident that two of his sons understood clearly the sacrificial system later laid out in detail in Leviticus. Hard to go back any further than that AFAIC :-)