There was no "great arab civilization"

[rhodescholar]

See this delightful, well-researched piece:

http://www.ninevehsoft.com/fiorina.htm

[Teacake]

Glad to see someone with so much knowledge challanged that woman. Why she even made that speech in the first place is a mystery, unless she is of arab ancestory. What ever the motive, it turned me off to HP products, of which their digital cameras suck anyhow, and ink carts are the most expensive on the market.

[NewsGuy]

This letter was sent to Carly Fiorina, CEO of Hewlett Packard Corporation, in response to a speech given by her on September 26, 2001.

-----------------------------------

November 7, 2001

Carly Fiorina
Hewlett-Packard
3000 Hanover Street
Palo Alto, CA 94304-1185

Dear Madame Fiorina:

It is with great interest that I read your speech delivered on September 26, 2001, titled "Technology, Business and Our way of Life: What's Next" [sic]. I was particularly interested in the story you told at the end of your speech, about the Arab/Muslim civilization. As an Assyrian, a non-Arab, Christian native of the Middle East, whose ancestors reach back to 5000 B.C., I wish to clarify some points you made in this little story, and to alert you to the dangers of unwittingly being drawn into the Arabist/Islamist ideology, which seeks to assimilate all cultures and religions into the Arab/Islamic fold.

I know you are a very busy woman, but please find ten minutes to read what follows, as it is a perspective that you will not likely get from anywhere else. I will answer some of the specific points you made in your speech, then conclude with a brief perspective on this Arabist/Islamist ideology.

Arabs and Muslims appeared on the world scene in 630 A.D., when the armies of Muhammad began their conquest of the Middle East. We should be very clear that this was a military conquest, not a missionary enterprise, and through the use of force, authorized by a declaration of a Jihad against infidels, Arabs/Muslims were able to forcibly convert and assimilate non-Arabs and non-Mulsims into their fold. Very few indigenous communities of the Middle East survived this -- primarily Assyrians, Jews, Armenians and Coptics (of Egypt).

Having conquered the Middle East, Arabs placed these communities under a Dhimmi (see the book Dhimmi, by Bat Ye'Or) system of governance, where the communities were allowed to rule themselves as religious minorities (Christians, Jews and Zoroastrian). These communities had to pay a tax (called a Jizzya in Arabic) that was, in effect, a penalty for being non-Muslim , and that was typically 80% in times of tolerance and up to 150% in times of oppression. This tax forced many of these communities to convert to Islam, as it was designed to do.

[...]

When Arabs and Islam swept through the Middle East in 630 A.D., they encountered 600 years of Assyrian Christian civilization, with a rich heritage, a highly developed culture, and advanced learning institutions. It is this civilization that became the foundation of the Arab civilization.

[...]

You state, "when other nations were afraid of ideas, this civilization thrived on them, and kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe out knowledge from past civilizations, this civilization kept the knowledge alive, and passed it on to others." This is a very important issue you raise, and it goes to the heart of the matter of what Arab/Islamic civilization represents.

I reviewed a book titled How Greek Science Passed to the Arabs, in which the author lists the significant translators and interpreters of Greek science. Of the 22 scholars listed, 20 were Assyrians, 1 was Persian and 1 an Arab. I state at the end of my review: "The salient conclusion which can be drawn from O'Leary's book is that Assyrians played a significant role in the shaping of the Islamic world via the Greek corpus of knowledge. If this is so, one must then ask the question, what happened to the Christian communities which made them lose this great intellectual enterprise which they had established. One can ask this same question of the Arabs. Sadly, O'Leary's book does not answer this question, and we must look elsewhere for the answer."

I did not answer this question I posed in the review because it was not the place to answer it, but the answer is very clear, the Christian Assyrian community was drained of its population through forced conversion to Islam (by the Jizzya), and once the community had dwindled below a critical threshold, it ceased producing the scholars that were the intellectual driving force of the Islamic civilization, and that is when the so called "Golden Age of Islam" came to an end (about 850 A.D.).

(see Nestorian Influence on Islam and Hagarism: the Making of the Islamic World).

Arab/Islamic civilization is not a progressive force, it is a regressive force; it does not give impetus, it retards. The great civilization you describe was not an Arab/Muslim accomplishment, it was an Assyrian accomplishment that Arabs expropriated and subsequently lost when they drained, through the forced conversion of Assyrians to Islam, the source of the intellectual vitality that propelled it. What other Arab/Muslim civilization has risen since? What other Arab/Muslim successes can we cite?

[...]

Arabs/Muslims are engaged in an explicit campaign of destruction and expropriation of cultures and communities, identities and ideas. Wherever Arab/Muslim civilization encounters a non-Arab/Muslim one, it attempts to destroy it (as the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan were destroyed, as Persepolis was destroyed by the Ayotollah Khomenie). This is a pattern that has been recurring since the advent of Islam, 1400 years ago, and is amply substantiated by the historical record. If the "foreign" culture cannot be destroyed, then it is expropriated, and revisionist historians claim that it is and was Arab, as is the case of most of the Arab "accomplishments" you cited in your speech.

For example, Arab history texts in the Middle East teach that Assyrians were Arabs, a fact that no reputable scholar would assert, and that no living Assyrian would accept. Assyrians first settled Nineveh, one of the major Assyrian cities, in 5000 B.C., which is 5630 years before Arabs came into that area. Even the word 'Arab' is an Assyrian word, meaning "Westerner" (the first written reference to Arabs was by the Assyrian King Sennacherib, 800 B.C., in which he tells of conquering the "ma'rabayeh" -- Westerners. See The Might That Was Assyria, by H. W. F. Saggs).

Even in America this Arabization policy continues. On October 27th a coalition of seven Assyrian and Maronite organizations sent an official letter to the Arab American Institute asking it to stop identifying Assyrians and Maronites as Arabs, which it had been deliberately doing.

[...]

I hope you found this information enlightening. For more information, refer to the web links below. You may contact me at keepa@ninevehsoft.com for further questions.

Thank you for your consideration.

Peter BetBasoo

Web resources:

Brief History of Assyrians
Assyrian International News Agency
Assyrian American National Federation
Assyrian Academic Society
Zinda Magazine
Beth Suryoyo
Nineveh Online
World Maronite Union
Maronite Research Council
World Lebanese Organization
Coptic Web

[L@mplighterM]

Whether they had a great civilization or not is moot as far as I’m concerned. To be sure the article appears to be well researched and on the surface it appears to be truthful. A great article!

The fact remains that the world has reached a stage where Islam is awakening. Arab nation has technology courtesy of non-Muslim countries that rivals that of many western nations. Currently they have painted Israel as one of the most evil states in the world and I would venture to guess that the majority of the population in the world believes them.

Currently Islamic Fundamentalism is winning the war against the west and the world has gotten smaller for westerners. This will continue into the future eventually Islam will rule our blue planet if they aren’t defeated.

An all out nuclear war is out of the question because it’ll be just as destructive to them as us. We are aging and Islam is getting younger by the second and I would certainly classify that as a win of sorts.

So when it comes down to the facts it doesn’t really matter what they had what counts is what they will get.

[reason]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Whether they had a great civilization or not is moot as far as I’m concerned. To be sure the article appears to be well researched and on the surface it appears to be truthful. A great article!

The fact remains that the world has reached a stage where Islam is awakening. Arab nation has technology courtesy of non-Muslim countries that rivals that of many western nations. Currently they have painted Israel as one of the most evil states in the world and I would venture to guess that the majority of the population in the world believes them.

Currently Islamic Fundamentalism is winning the war against the west and the world has gotten smaller for westerners. This will continue into the future eventually Islam will rule our blue planet if they aren’t defeated.

An all out nuclear war is out of the question because it’ll be just as destructive to them as us. We are aging and Islam is getting younger by the second and I would certainly classify that as a win of sorts.

So when it comes down to the facts it doesn’t really matter what they had what counts is what they will get.

That article has NO support the writer is not a historian ,he has no credibility, he doesn't provide any single source, it is his opinion. He cannot rewrite History, there was an Islamic civilization from china to Spain.It was the land of the free relative to anywhere else in the world.It was the most advanced and if any body doubts that then he is blind, because all reputable Historians agree on that.Now instead of trying to delete History why dont we try to make it by letting go of our hate?

[Ezra]

I definitely agree that this is a beautiful, authenticated piece of research.

[jcsd]

I'm sorry but during the European dark ages, the Arabs were the most scientifically advanced people on the Earth, only the chinese could really rival them. Much of Arabic knowledge was taken from ancient Rome and Greece and was expanded upon by the Arabs, particular areas which they excelled in were astronmy and mathematics,this is why languages using the Roman Alphabet use the Arabic number system (i.e 1,2,3,4....).

Your readiness to believe such an uncredited revisionist view, is little more than racism.

[reason]

Originally posted by Ezra
I definitely agree that this is a beautiful, authenticated piece of research.

Ezra please point us to the almighty Coptic civilization. Oh thats right there is non- it is non existant, Alas I disgress. I hope every one notes the deep anger and bitterness that clouds Ezra's mind. It has to be apparent by now. I have alot of bad things to say about some people who profess the coptic religion, but I would be doing no justice to those people I call friends.

[Mediocrates]

The article really focuses on the period from 630-850 and doesn't address most of the period you mention. The point to the piece is not what the Arabs were masters of, but how they came to that knowledge. Just like Americans walk on the moon, they did not invent calculus. However, we don't claim to either.

Although I don't fully understand one's objection to this piece other than the tone. The Japanese are an intellectually acquisitive culture as well and this is seen, by them, as a virtue not a problem. We make the first widget and they make the next 3 million widgets better. I suppose one could make the case for Arab cultures similarly. Whatever they did they borrowed from others and expanded on it, disseminating it to other lands. At least through that period, the Golden Age of Islam. And you are right, what was their Golden Age was our Dark Ages.

At any rate though after the initial invasion of the Moors in 711 to the northward apex reached at the Battle of Tours 732. Islamic influence fought a stalled battle in the west through the surrender of Toledo in 1085. (BTW it was Fibonacci's "Liber Abaci" - 1202, that established Arabic numerals in the west, some 200 years after the Moors lost of most of their European conquest). So I think the overall influence of Islam in the west is somewhat overrated. True, there is Spain, as well as mosques in present day Alnbania coexisting side by side with Coptic churches until around the year 1300 or so. And certainly the Ottomans were pushed back at the the gates of Vienna in the 16thC. but largely since rise of urban centers in Western Europe after the 10th C. the Islamic armies were pitted against superior or equal force. Before that they were basically fighting disorganized European villages.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by jcsd
I'm sorry but during the European dark ages, the Arabs were the most scientifically advanced people on the Earth, only the chinese could really rival them. Much of Arabic knowledge was taken from ancient Rome and Greece and was expanded upon by the Arabs, particular areas which they excelled in were astronmy and mathematics,this is why languages using the Roman Alphabet use the Arabic number system (i.e 1,2,3,4....).

Your readiness to believe such an uncredited revisionist view, is little more than racism.

Actually Arabic numerals are Indian who also introduced the concept of zero. The Arabs disseminated that information westward after they conquered the Indians in the period up to the year 1000 (Mahmud). BTW most of the initial muslim influence in India was the result of muslim refugees fleeing the Mongols and pouring into northern India.

[reason]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Actually Arabic numerals are Indian who also introduced the concept of zero. The Arabs disseminated that information westward after they conquered the Indians in the period up to the year 1000 (Mahmud). BTW most of the initial muslim influence in India was the result of muslim refugees fleeing the Mongols and pouring into northern India.

You are mistaken medicorates, the numbers used by Arabs now are of Indian origins, but the numbers the Europeans use now are Arabic. So Arabs left their numerical system for an Indian one, but the europeans stayed with the Arabic original system.

[IlyaFurman]

This thread is so ludicrous, does anybody really belive the Islamic/Arab world hasnt contributed anything good? lol, They have done so much, do some reasearch.

[jcsd]

Exactly Ilya, I have a history of mathematics upstairs and it has two whole chapters devoted to Arab mathematicians.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by jcsd
Exactly Ilya, I have a history of mathematics upstairs and it has two whole chapters devoted to Arab mathematicians.

The contributions I can think of on the top of my head is algebra, cough medicine, guitars, latte like coffee latte, optics, univerties, and the concept of Zero that was not known at that time, this was definetly written by a person with "dislike" for muslims or arabs.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
This thread is so ludicrous, does anybody really belive the Islamic/Arab world hasnt contributed anything good? lol, They have done so much, do some reasearch.

How about (instead of asking if anyone believe that) you take this article part and part and reply to it. Of course, don't forget to mention your authenticated references/sources as you reply.

[ibrodsky]

I haven't yet read the article (I will do so shortly) but I think the following needs to be said...

No one can deny there was a time when the Islamic world was ascendant and the Christian world more or less asleep. During at least part of that time, there was more intellectual activity in the Islamic world, and certainly more commerce.

But some Muslims grossly exaggerate the achievements of the Islamic world during that time. They believe that if only Muslims could recreate that glorious period it would serve as a beacon of progress, tolerance, and prosperity. The clear implication is that there was more justice and progress in the now defunct Islamic Empire than today's world, dominated by secular democracy and capitalism.

Though I don't believe in historicism (the idea that history unfolds according to plan), neither do I believe history is just a series of accidents. The Islamic Empire was the best thing going at that time. It faded away, however, for good reason.

At the risk of oversimplifying... the Christian world chose the way of Maimonides and Aquinas, while the Islamic world chose the way of Algazali. The Christian world caught up with and eventually surpassed the Islamic world becauee it found and embraced new and powerful ideas -- ideas that the Islamic world rejected.

Basically, most Christians and Jews came to realize that religion does not have all of the answers -- that ongoing progress requires human inquiry unhindered by religious dogma. The Islamic world, in contrast, accepted the idea that logic and science are fine as long as they serve Islam. That's why today there are so many Muslims who believe that whenever any controversy or doubt appears they must refer back to the Koran and other Islamic writings, as if the pinnacle of wisdom was achieved in the 7th century.

[ibrodsky]

I thought the link would take me to Fiorina's original speech, but it only takes you to the letter already posted by NewsGuy. The link to the speech on the page linked from the first post doesn't work. I've seen an excerpt from her speech which praises the defunct Islamic Empire. My understanding is that Fiorina is a Muslim -- not just an admirer as I think has been suggested.

[Mediocrates]

I'm sure the Chinese make the same claims against the arabs. I'm sure the Mongols make the same claim. I'm sure the Japanese make the same claim. I'm sure the Algonquins could make the same claim.

See the basic problem is that when you get to define your success criteria you rarely fail. So each of those purported successes by this ancient culture or that are strictly within the context of what that culture holds dear.

So - around the 11th C the Algonquins formed the first true democracy we woild recognize as such.

The Chinese make claims to the world oldest culture.

The Japanese make claims to the longest continuously occupied throne.

The Mongols invented colonialism

Hebrew is the oldest alephbet in use today

The names of the months in the Hebrew calendar are Assyrian

The Hyskos probably invented the 2 wheeled war chariot

Caucausians domesticated the dog

Jericho has been inhabited by someone since 10,000 BCE

The Myceneans invented bustrophedon writing

....and so on. But much of that is even recorded only because it was important to the cultures that did record it.

[jcsd]

I mean, exactly, there were alot of great civilizations. But the author of the article is trying to remove the Islamic empire from that list. It was by no means the most accomplished empire ever on earth, but it was very important particularly from the view of it's technological acheivements.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
How about (instead of asking if anyone believe that) you take this article part and part and reply to it. Of course, don't forget to mention your authenticated references/sources as you reply.

what?

[elke]

Originally posted by jcsd
I mean, exactly, there were alot of great civilizations. But the author of the article is trying to remove the Islamic empire from that list. It was by no means the most accomplished empire ever on earth, but it was very important particularly from the view of it's technological acheivements.

Now, JCSD, this is truly an accomplishment! I agree with every word you said here! :)

[Ezra]

Originally posted by jcsd
I mean, exactly, there were alot of great civilizations. But the author of the article is trying to remove the Islamic empire from that list. It was by no means the most accomplished empire ever on earth, but it was very important particularly from the view of it's technological acheivements.

...And we asked for some insight about these "technological" achievements.

However, before you mention any achievement, you have to prove that it was not copied from the most impressive civilizations of all time, i.e. the Pharonic, the Hellenic, the Chinese, and the Indian civilizations.

Moreover, you have to be able to justify why didn't any of these technological achievement come from the Arab Peninsula.

You also have to justify why didn't any of these achievements appear before Muslims start to conquer neighboring civilizations.

[reason]

Originally posted by Ezra
...And we asked for some insight about these "technological" achievements.

However, before you mention any achievement, you have to prove that it was not copied from the most impressive civilizations of all time, i.e. the Pharonic, the Hellenic, the Chinese, and the Indian civilizations.

Moreover, you have to be able to justify why didn't any of these technological achievement come from the Arab Peninsula.

You also have to justify why didn't any of these achievements appear before Muslims start to conquer neighboring civilizations.

Ezra stop posting your rubbish on these boards. Go to yahoo.com and search for Arab scholars. Now go away. And why dont you please post what the great coptic civilization achieved other than not allowing their priests to take showers.If any one visits egypt stay away from coptic priests.They are good people but damn they stink :).

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by reason
Ezra stop posting your rubbish on these boards. Go to yahoo.com and search for Arab scholars. Now go away. And why dont you please post what the great coptic civilization achieved other than not allowing their priests to take showers.If any one visits egypt stay away from coptic priests.They are good people but damn they stink :).

Did you know that the coptics in Egypt used to sacraficed a Virgin every year in the nile, to get good water yeild. lol Caliph Omar stopped this practice.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by reason
Ezra stop posting your rubbish on these boards. Go to yahoo.com and search for Arab scholars. Now go away. And why dont you please post what the great coptic civilization achieved other than not allowing their priests to take showers.If any one visits egypt stay away from coptic priests.They are good people but damn they stink :).

Of course this reply shows the amazing ignorance you have. You can't even tell the difference between the Pharos and the Copts!

YOU SHOULD BE REALLY ASHAMED OF YOURSELF!!! :o

You should find yourself a first grade forum to chat in!

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Did you know that the coptics in Egypt used to sacraficed a Virgin every year in the nile, to get good water yeild. lol Caliph Omar stopped this practice.

..and as always his tail follows!

Same reply above applies to the tail!

[Ezra]

Originally posted by jcsd
I mean, exactly, there were alot of great civilizations. But the author of the article is trying to remove the Islamic empire from that list. It was by no means the most accomplished empire ever on earth, but it was very important particularly from the view of it's technological acheivements.


Sorry for this interruption by the "body" and the "tail" which showed their amazing ignorance in their inability to differentiate between Pharos and Copts. :D

Anyway, if you excuse me, I'll just re-post my questions so that we can overcome the previous "body & tail" ignorance barrier! :D

...And we asked for some insight about these "technological" achievements.

However, before you mention any achievement, you have to prove that it was not copied from the most impressive civilizations of all time, i.e. the Pharonic, the Hellenic, the Chinese, and the Indian civilizations.

Moreover, you have to be able to justify why didn't any of these technological achievement come from the Arab Peninsula.

You also have to justify why didn't any of these achievements appear before Muslims start to conquer neighboring civilizations

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
..and as always his tail follows!

Same reply above applies to the tail!

Thanks ill be the tail, doesnt bother me. :)

So im still waiting on your opion on the fact that the coptics sacraficed virgins in the nile so that the river gives them "riches", lol, thank god caliph omar stoped that practice, what do you have to say about that.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Thanks ill be the tail, doesnt bother me. :)

So im still waiting on your opion on the fact that the coptics sacraficed virgins in the nile so that the river gives them "riches", lol, thank god caliph omar stoped that practice, what do you have to say about that.

IN FRONT OF THIS WHOLE FORUM, I DARE YOU TO GET ME A SINGLE SOURCE/REFERENCE THAT SAYS THAT COPTICS SACRAFIED VIRGINS IN THE NILE..

BUT IF YOU FAILED TO DO THAT, WE WILL NOT SEE YOUR FACE AGAIN IN THIS FORUM, DEAL?

[jcsd]

Well, for a start algebra was an area that the Arabs excelled at with the great Arab mathematician al-Khwarizimi being known as "the father of alegbra". Sometimes Diophantus of Alexandria is also known by this title but al-Khwarizimi formulated his version independantly, ableit after Diophantus but his work is far more simlair to the elementary algebra of today and it is from his book Al-jabr wa'l muqabalah (which included a preface citing Mohammed the prophet as an inspiration for the work) that we get the word 'alegebra' from. Of course this work was based on work by earlier mathematicians (it is still undecided whether Greek, Mestopotamian or Indian influences played the biggest part) but this work far surpassed any simlair works around at that time. Al-Kwarizimi is also responsible for bringing into common use the decimal number system with his work Concernig the Hindu Art of Reckoning (orginal Arabic title is now lost) which later difused to Europe via Fibonacci.

After al-Kharizimi many other Arabic mathematicians such as the later Al-Karkhi (who is attributed with the first numerical solutions to the equation ax^2n + bx^n =c) contiuned his work in areas such as alogthrims and geometry.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
IN FRONT OF THIS WHOLE FORUM, I DARE YOU TO GET ME A SINGLE SOURCE/REFERENCE THAT SAYS THAT COPTICS SACRAFIED VIRGINS IN THE NILE..

BUT IF YOU FAILED TO DO THAT, WE WILL NOT SEE YOUR FACE AGAIN IN THIS FORUM, DEAL?

Buy the book heres the info for it

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

E. Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.

Human Sacrifice.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ill type a passage just for you


The Coptics were Christians. They flourished in many parts of Egypt, but their social and political base was around the Nile in Middle Egypt. Their culture was all but ruined after the Mohammedan conquests, coming in waves one after an other. In most cases the Muslim Arabs were cooperative with the Copts, but in many instances they were harsh on their non muslim neighbours. But this conquest by the muslim arabs had some postive effects on the Christian Copts, it stopped a savage practice. The Coptics used to hold a big festival in the early summer each year. This was a day of general merrymaking. However, the day was also marred with human sacrifice. A beatiful maiden, dressed as a bride, was thrown into the Nile. People thought that the sacrifice was necessary to please the Nile, and get a big flood of water for their parched fields. If the Nile got displeased, they thought, there would be no flood and hence no crops.

YOUR WELCOME!!

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Buy the book heres the info for it

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

E. Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.

Human Sacrifice.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ill type a passage just for you


The Coptics were Christians. They flourished in many parts of Egypt, but their social and political base was around the Nile in Middle Egypt. Their culture was all but ruined after the Mohammedan conquests, coming in waves one after an other. In most cases the Muslim Arabs were cooperative with the Copts, but in many instances they were harsh on their non muslim neighbours. But this conquest by the muslim arabs had some postive effects on the Christian Copts, it stopped a savage practice. The Coptics used to hold a big festival in the early summer each year. This was a day of general merrymaking. However, the day was also marred with human sacrifice. A beatiful maiden, dressed as a bride, was thrown into the Nile. People thought that the sacrifice was necessary to please the Nile, and get a big flood of water for their parched fields. If the Nile got displeased, they thought, there would be no flood and hence no crops.

YOUR WELCOME!!


WHAT A BIG LIAR YOU ARE MR. ILYA...

Go to this: http://www.bartleby.com/81/8587.html

E. Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.

Human Sacrifice.

A custom still subsisting seems to prove that the Egyptians formerly sacrificed a young virgin to the god of the Nile, for they now make a statue of clay in shape of a girl, which they call the “betrothed bride,” and throw it into the river. (Savary.)


Oh, WHAT A BIG LIAR YOU ARE MR. ILYA!

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
WHAT A BIG LIAR YOU ARE MR. ILYA...

Go to this: http://www.bartleby.com/81/8587.html

E. Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.

Human Sacrifice.

A custom still subsisting seems to prove that the Egyptians formerly sacrificed a young virgin to the god of the Nile, for they now make a statue of clay in shape of a girl, which they call the “betrothed bride,” and throw it into the river. (Savary.)


Oh, WHAT A BIG LIAR YOU ARE MR. ILYA!

Hahaha, I love when a person gets stuck in the corner with nothing to say, buy the book by E.Cobham Brewer called Human Sacrifice, and you will find the history of Human sacrifice from the ancient egyptians, to modern day Pygmies in Africa. Coptics are one of them, read the whole book, not just the summary.

Your link is to the bibliography RECORD of one topic, to show human sacrifice in context, lolol, good one.

Go to a library and read the book.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Hahaha, I love when a person gets stuck in the corner with nothing to say, buy the book by E.Cobham Brewer called Human Sacrifice, and you will find the history of Human sacrifice from the ancient egyptians, to modern day Pygmies in Africa. Coptics are one of them, read the whole book, not just the summary.

Your link is to the bibliography RECORD of one topic, to show human sacrifice in context, lolol, good one.

Go to a library and read the book.

Then go and read it once again carefully Mr. Liar!

And then, maybe you can read this link:

http://www.ancient-egypt.org/glossary/human_sacr.html

and tell us your comment!

[Ezra]

Originally posted by reason
Ezra stop posting your rubbish on these boards. Go to yahoo.com and search for Arab scholars. Now go away. And why dont you please post what the great coptic civilization achieved other than not allowing their priests to take showers.If any one visits egypt stay away from coptic priests.They are good people but damn they stink :).

Ha Mr. reason? Still researching the difference between the Pharos and the Copts?

Let us know when you are done. :D

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
Then go and read it once again carefully Mr. Liar!

And then, maybe you can read this link:

http://www.ancient-egypt.org/glossary/human_sacr.html

and tell us your comment!

what is the point of that link???

THE COPTS USED TO PRACTICE HUMAN SACRAFICE PLEASE READ THAT BOOK, it was practiced back in the day when copts didnt know any better, it was tribal christianity.

It has been changed since then, but THE copts USED TO PRACTICE HUMAN SACRAFICE.

[reason]

Originally posted by Ezra
Of course this reply shows the amazing ignorance you have. You can't even tell the difference between the Pharos and the Copts!

YOU SHOULD BE REALLY ASHAMED OF YOURSELF!!! :o

You should find yourself a first grade forum to chat in!

I dont see you refuting that coptic priests dont take baths, because its true. And what Ilya said IS TRUE. Whether you want to admit it or not.Copts are not Pharoahs, but yet you still have to name ANY achievment be it inspired by someone else or not.Ezra you are just lying to cover ther ugly face of coptic religion (sounds familiar dosnt it?).Well atleast when I sit with a jew to speak I dont have t cover my nose ;) (again dosnt it sound familiar?).Now ezra go away, because you wont find satisfaction here. I will dispose of your lies and for every lie you make ill post something true and sick about Coptic religion, because I have alot more.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
what is the point of that link???

THE COPTS USED TO PRACTICE HUMAN SACRAFICE PLEASE READ THAT BOOK, it was practiced back in the day when copts didnt know any better, it was tribal christianity.

It has been changed since then, but THE copts USED TO PRACTICE HUMAN SACRAFICE.

Here is the lies you mentioned. Go and check this:

http://www.bartleby.com/81/8587.html

E. Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.

Human Sacrifice.

A custom still subsisting seems to prove that the Egyptians formerly sacrificed a young virgin to the god of the Nile, for they now make a statue of clay in shape of a girl, which they call the “betrothed bride,” and throw it into the river. (Savary.)

Did I see any Copts here?

Now let's check this:

http://www.ancient-egypt.org/glossary/human_sacr.html

There is some evidence that suggests that human sacrifice was practised during the Predynastic Period and at the beginning of the 1st Dynasty……..There is no evidence for this kind of human sacrifice after the reign of Djer, so it is likely that this practice may have been abandoned during the early 1st Dynasty.

See you ignorant? This practice has ended even in the Pharos Era.

[Ezra]

I dont see you refuting that coptic priests dont take baths, because its true.

Can you please give us a link for this information? Please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please!

Copts are not Pharoahs,

Woooow! He finally knew it! Now you can go to second grade!

coptic religion

This a new! I never heard about that religion! Can you please give us some link to this new religion? Hahahahah..

Now ezra go away, because you wont find satisfaction here.

Hahahahaha.. PLEASE HELP! HE HAS A EXPLOSION BELT AROUND HIS BODY!

I will dispose of your lies and for every lie you make ill post something true and sick about Coptic religion, because I have alot more.

Please Please Please Please Please Please do.. You know what? LET'S OPEN A NEW THREAD FOR IT!

But before that, just provide the link we requested above! Please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please!

[Ezra]

Originally posted by jcsd
I mean, exactly, there were alot of great civilizations. But the author of the article is trying to remove the Islamic empire from that list. It was by no means the most accomplished empire ever on earth, but it was very important particularly from the view of it's technological acheivements.

My deep apology for third time for the ignorant interruption by "you know who"!

Let's continue the discussion…

...And we asked for some insight about these "technological" achievements.

However, before you mention any achievement, you have to prove that it was not copied from the most impressive civilizations of all time, i.e. the Pharonic, the Hellenic , the Chinese , and the Indian civilizations.

Moreover, you have to be able to justify why didn't any of these technological achievement come from the Arab Peninsula.

You also have to justify why didn't any of these achievements appear before Muslims start to conquer neighboring civilizations.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
However, before you mention any achievement, you have to prove that it was not copied from the most impressive civilizations of all time, i.e. the Pharonic, the Hellenic , the Chinese , and the Indian civilizations.


Before the creation of pakistan India was half muslim, muslims are a part of India.

The biggest monothetic religion in China is Islam, and the greates sea generals in China during the 8 to 10th century, were chinese muslims. China has the 10th biggest muslim population.

So that dosnt mean much.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
Here is the lies you mentioned. Go and check this:

http://www.bartleby.com/81/8587.html

E. Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.

Human Sacrifice.

A custom still subsisting seems to prove that the Egyptians formerly sacrificed a young virgin to the god of the Nile, for they now make a statue of clay in shape of a girl, which they call the “betrothed bride,” and throw it into the river. (Savary.)

Did I see any Copts here?

[

You are really good at switching the subject, and telling LIES,

THIS IS A BIBLIOGRAPHY

A custom still subsisting seems to prove that the Egyptians formerly sacrificed a young virgin to the god of the Nile, for they now make a statue of clay in shape of a girl, which they call the “betrothed bride,” and throw it into the river. (Savary.)

Get the BOOK FROM THE LIBRARY, and READ ABOUT THE COPTS PLEASE

And if you missed it here it is again.

The Coptics were Christians. They flourished in many parts of Egypt, but their social and political base was around the Nile in Middle Egypt. Their culture was all but ruined after the Mohammedan conquests, coming in waves one after an other. In most cases the Muslim Arabs were cooperative with the Copts, but in many instances they were harsh on their non muslim neighbours. But this conquest by the muslim arabs had some postive effects on the Christian Copts, it stopped a savage practice. The Coptics used to hold a big festival in the early summer each year. This was a day of general merrymaking. However, the day was also marred with human sacrifice. A beatiful maiden, dressed as a bride, was thrown into the Nile. People thought that the sacrifice was necessary to please the Nile, and get a big flood of water for their parched fields. If the Nile got displeased, they thought, there would be no flood and hence no crops.

YOUR WELCOME!!

[reason]

Originally posted by Ezra
Can you please give us a link for this information? Please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please!



Woooow! He finally knew it! Now you can go to second grade!



This a new! I never heard about that religion! Can you please give us some link to this new religion? Hahahahah..



Hahahahaha.. PLEASE HELP! HE HAS A EXPLOSION BELT AROUND HIS BODY!



Please Please Please Please Please Please do.. You know what? LET'S OPEN A NEW THREAD FOR IT!

But before that, just provide the link we requested above! Please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please!

Sure I could link you to my nose, and you tell me if it dosnt smell bad hehe.But admit it or not its true, and you know it Ezra.

Copts are not pharoahs because the pharoahs actually invented things and were smart and I have to add they took baths.

heheh yeah I have an explosion belt of coptic smelly filth, dont come near me if you dont want to get a sensory overload and die.

Now ezra, I could go on with this pointless religion bashing, but it would turn me into a bitter man just like you(god help me if I become like you :().

[Ezra]

Originally posted by reason
Sure I could link you to my nose, and you tell me if it dosnt smell bad hehe.But admit it or not its true, and you know it Ezra.

Copts are not pharoahs because the pharoahs actually invented things and were smart and I have to add they took baths.

heheh yeah I have an explosion belt of coptic smelly filth, dont come near me if you dont want to get a sensory overload and die.

Now ezra, I could go on with this pointless religion bashing, but it would turn me into a bitter man just like you(god help me if I become like you :().

First of all, I opened a special thread to discuss your amusing lies, so please direct your BS there so that we continue our discussion here.

Second, I'm so surprised that you couldn't mention a link or support for this amazing lie. This proves the true face of those who claim to be "moderate" muslim.

Please continue this way. Believe me, a single act from you tells what a million word of the rotten face of Islam from me.

I'm sure the whole forum is enjoying your being around! Keep the good job!

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Before the creation of pakistan India was half muslim, muslims are a part of India.

The biggest monothetic religion in China is Islam, and the greates sea generals in China during the 8 to 10th century, were chinese muslims. China has the 10th biggest muslim population.

So that dosnt mean much.

India and China were muslim before the creation of Islam???????? Haaaa????

Stop drinking Margeritas before posting here please!

[Ezra]

Originally posted by jcsd
I mean, exactly, there were alot of great civilizations. But the author of the article is trying to remove the Islamic empire from that list. It was by no means the most accomplished empire ever on earth, but it was very important particularly from the view of it's technological acheivements.

My deep apology for fourth time for the ignorant interruption by "you know who"!

Let's continue the discussion…

...And we asked for some insight about these "technological" achievements.

However, before you mention any achievement, you have to prove that it was not copied from the most impressive civilizations of all time, i.e. the Pharonic, the Hellenic , the Chinese , and the Indian civilizations.

Moreover, you have to be able to justify why didn't any of these technological achievement come from the Arab Peninsula.

You also have to justify why didn't any of these achievements appear before Muslims start to conquer neighboring civilizations.

[reason]

Originally posted by Ezra
First of all, I opened a special thread to discuss your amusing lies, so please direct your BS there so that we continue our discussion here.

Second, I'm so surprised that you couldn't mention a link or support for this amazing lie. This proves the true face of those who claim to be "moderate" muslim.

Please continue this way. Believe me, a single act from you tells what a million word of the rotten face of Islam from me.

I'm sure the whole forum is enjoying your being around! Keep the good job!

You call it lies I call it truths.
Dont be surprised that I didnt provide a link, since its a well known fact in Egypt and everybody knows it (except you apparently) and no body wanted to waste time on providing a link for something that is a given hahaha.

Strange that you would be using the word "rotten", is that a freudian slip? ;)

[reason]

Originally posted by Ezra
India and China were muslim before the creation of Islam???????? Haaaa????

Stop drinking Margeritas before posting here please!


Oh my god!!! how did you get from Ilya's post that India and China were muslim before the creation of Islam? Go read it again, you will be suprised.

Ezra is special not retarded.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by reason
You call it lies I call it truths.
Dont be surprised that I didnt provide a link, since its a well known fact in Egypt and everybody knows it (except you apparently) and no body wanted to waste time on providing a link for something that is a given hahaha.

Strange that you would be using the word "rotten", is that a freudian slip? ;)

WELL KNOWN FACT? AND YOU CAN'T GET A SINGLE PROOF FOR IT?

What do you think we are? Muslims and you are our Mufti?

[reason]

Originally posted by Ezra
WELL KNOWN FACT? AND YOU CAN'T GET A SINGLE PROOF FOR IT?

What do you think we are? Muslims and you are our Mufti?

Nah you smell too bad to be a muslim ;). No Im not a mufti, but what I posted is true as can be proven from your anger.

[jcsd]

Originally posted by Ezra
My deep apology for fourth time for the ignorant interruption by "you know who"!

Let's continue the discussionÂ…

...And we asked for some insight about these "technological" achievements.

However, before you mention any achievement, you have to prove that it was not copied from the most impressive civilizations of all time, i.e. the Pharonic, the Hellenic , the Chinese , and the Indian civilizations.

Moreover, you have to be able to justify why didn't any of these technological achievement come from the Arab Peninsula.

You also have to justify why didn't any of these achievements appear before Muslims start to conquer neighboring civilizations.

Well Algebra as I said before appeared independantly (i.e without knowledge of) and in a more advanced form than a simlair Greek methodolgy. Much of Arab knowledge was absorbed from other civilizations, particularly the Greek and Indian civilizations, BUT it was greatly expanded upon by them, by comparing ancient Greek, Sanskrit and other ancient mathematical texts with those written later by the Arabs, we can see that the Arabs acheived significant advances, inventing Algebra, Algorithms, etc. (incidently both words are different corruptions of the same Arabic word).

As for why these acheivments didn't come from the Arab penisula, well for a start most of the Islamic empire population centres were outside of the Arab penisula, for example Baghdad and Alexandria where many of these achievments were achieved were two the largest cities in the Islamic empire (I pretty sure Baghdad was the largest in the whole empire). Also the rulers of those particular cities were very enlightened individuals and patronized many mathematicians and astronmers.

Before the coming of Mohammed the Arabs were little more than a collection of nomadic tribes, but within several generations they conquered a vast area and had Arabicized many different peoples.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by reason
Nah you smell too bad to be a muslim ;). No Im not a mufti, but what I posted is true as can be proven from your anger.

So you don't have any other proof ????

Not even a single link? Not a single web site? Not anything?

[reason]

Originally posted by Ezra
So you don't have any other proof ????

Not even a single link? Not a single web site? Not anything?


No I dont need , becuase your response is proof enough .

[Ezra]

Originally posted by reason
No I dont need , becuase your response is proof enough .

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA..... So you don't have any source/link/.. anything! for you peice of information?

Hmmmmm…. You still don't get it, do you? We are not Muslims and you are our Mufti!

We still have brains to use. Don't insult the intelligence of the people in this forum.

[reason]

Originally posted by Ezra
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA..... So you don't have any source/link/.. anything! for you peice of information?

Hmmmmm…. You still don't get it, do you? We are not Muslims and you are our Mufti!

We still have brains to use. Don't insult the intelligence of the people in this forum.

Told ya I dont need em , my nose can attest to that ;).Yeah I know your not a Muslim, but would you explain to me why you dont take baths?

"We still have brains to use" who are the "We" here?because im pretty sure that whoever has brains here you are not one of them. Its an oxymoron Ezra and brain in the same post.

[Mediocrates]

Maybe we need a 'megabrain' smiley

~(((:>)

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
India and China were muslim before the creation of Islam???????? Haaaa????

Stop drinking Margeritas before posting here please!

Hmm when did I say that? lol, I guess you gotta stop drinking Margeritas before reading my posts!!

[Ezra]

Originally posted by jcsd
Well Algebra as I said before appeared independantly (i.e without knowledge of) and in a more advanced form than a simlair Greek methodolgy. Much of Arab knowledge was absorbed from other civilizations, particularly the Greek and Indian civilizations, BUT it was greatly expanded upon by them, by comparing ancient Greek, Sanskrit and other ancient mathematical texts with those written later by the Arabs, we can see that the Arabs acheived significant advances, inventing Algebra, Algorithms, etc. (incidently both words are different corruptions of the same Arabic word).

As for why these acheivments didn't come from the Arab penisula, well for a start most of the Islamic empire population centres were outside of the Arab penisula, for example Baghdad and Alexandria where many of these achievments were achieved were two the largest cities in the Islamic empire (I pretty sure Baghdad was the largest in the whole empire). Also the rulers of those particular cities were very enlightened individuals and patronized many mathematicians and astronmers.

Before the coming of Mohammed the Arabs were little more than a collection of nomadic tribes, but within several generations they conquered a vast area and had Arabicized many different peoples.

hi jcsd,

I'm so sorry I didn't notice your message between this fload of ignorant messages from the "you know who and his tail."!

First of all, large part of your debate about Algebra was already verified and denied by the article mentioned at the start of the thread.

Anyway, let me ask you a very small question. How could the ancient civilization build their huge monuments (Pyramids, Temples, Achropolis..etc.) without a very complex mathematics? Do you know that there is a Temple in southern Egypt that has the sun enters through a groove only once a year in the anniversary of the king who built that Temple? They were brilliant in astronomy and architecture, needless to mention of course medicine and chemistry. And what ever applies to the Pharonic civilization applies to Hellenic civilization. Can they achieve that without an extremely complex mathematic and physics?

The only thing is that these sciences weren't published to the public nation and were only kept secrets with the Priests (as the secrets of mummification, for example). But it was there. The only thing the Arabs did, was to publish these knowledge not creating it. If you followed the history of Islam, you will find it full of wars and conquering. There was no stability what so ever that can allow any scientific achievement.

Let's take it by the very simple principle of logic. If some Bedew went to the greatest civilization of all times Alexandria or Baghdad, who will teach who?

..to be continued

[Mediocrates]

The great cathedrals of Europe were built with the barest minimum of Euclidian geometry, so yes it is possible to build the Egyptian monuments w/o a great deal of high powered math.

But if needed to replicate them today we'd need solid analytic geometry, mixed second partial differential calculus and advanced trig. Those are just tools to make the job easier, but it's possible either way.

For those of you who are familiar with actuarial science you may remember we had to memorize a-angle tables and logs in order to do the calculations quickly on the tests.

And Integral Calculus is for practical applications little more than interative summations across an interval.

[jcsd]

Erza, I did prepare a long reply for you but unfortunately I deleted it(apparently I used too many smileys), here is a summary (I can't be bothered to right it out again)

1. pretty much what Mediocrates said, the Egyptians could of built the pyramids using entirely the knowledge that we know they had (they had no knowledge of trig. but they knew of certain ratios), and there is no great reason to think they were even more advanced. Stonehenge and the nearby Silbury Hill (two neolithic monuments in the UK) are examples of people with very limited mathematical knowledge (not that the Egyptians mathematical knowledge was limited) building extremely large and in the caseof stonehenge astronomically aligned monuments.

2. I got all my information from "The History of Mathematics" (I don't have it infront of me now but if you want I can tell you the name of the author(s)), it is almost certainly the article that is at fault if it is in contradiction.

3. In several regions of the Islamic empire there were very long periods of unbroken stability.

4. What is a Bedew?

[cerulean]

Originally posted by jcsd
...
2. I got all my information from "The History of Mathematics" (I don't have it infront of me now but if you want I can tell you the name of the author(s)), it is almost certainly the article that is at fault if it is in contradiction.


I happen to have "A History of Mathematics" by Carl B. Boyer in front of me. Is that the same book you are referencing? What is it you want to look up in it?

[jcsd]

I'm pretty sure it's the same book I used (you haven't been round my house and stolen my copy, I can't find it anywhere :) ). Most of the information was drawn from the chapter "The Arab Hegenomy". I can't give you exact page numbers but under the sub-heading "The father of algebra" it should confirm that despite an earlier claim by diophantus (sic?), al-Khawarizani (sic?) (I do't have the book infront of me so spelling of names may be incorrect)formulated hius version independantly and it is this that modern algebra is derived from.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by jcsd

4. What is a Bedew?

They are the Arabs wondering around in the desert and knows nothing except following their goats :D

[reason]

Originally posted by Ezra
They are the Arabs wondering around in the desert and knows nothing except following their goats :D

You mean bedouin? Yeah these goat followers still have more achievments to their name than the copts.Now Ezra you have failed to provide me with a single coptic achievment , whether plagiarised or not.

[Mediocrates]

Bedew = Bedouin ?

[Mediocrates]

This link was posted on HNN.US which is run by professional historians. The excerpt appears on Frontpage Mag.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=4626

The Golden Age of Islam is a Myth
By Serge Trifkovic
FrontPageMagazine.com | November 15, 2002


Second in a series of excerpts adapted by Robert Locke from Dr. Serge Trifkovic’s

new book The Sword of the Prophet: A Politically-Incorrect Guide to Islam

The hatred of Western Civilization, and the corresponding urge to glorify anything outside it, especially if it can be depicted as a victim of the West, is a well-known phenomenon of the contemporary liberal mind. One of the forms it has taken in recent years is the attempt to artificially inflate the historic achievements of other civilizations beyond what the facts support. The noble savage myth is a commonplace; what is more complex is the myth that has been bandied about concerning the supposed "golden age" of Islamic civilization during what we know as the Middle Ages.

The myth of an Islamic Golden Age is needed by Islam’s apologists to save it from being damned by its present squalid condition; to prove, as it were, that there is more to Islam than the terrorism of Bin Laden and the decadence of the oil sheiks. It is, frankly, a confession that if the world judges it by what it is today, it comes up rather short, being a religion that has yet to produce a democratic or prosperous society, or social and cultural forms admired by neutral foreign observers the way anyone can admire American freedom, Japanese order, Israeli courage, or Italian style.

Some liberal academics openly admit that they twist the Moslem past to serve their present-day intellectual agendas. For example, some who propound the myth of an Islamic golden age of tolerance admit that their goal is,

"to recover for postmodernity that lost medieval Judeo-Islamic trading, social and cultural world, its high point pre-1492 Moorish Spain, which permitted and relished a plurality, a convivencia, of religions and cultures, Christian, Jewish and Moslem; which prized an historic internationality of space along with the valuing of particular cities; which was inclusive and cosmopolitan, cosmopolitan here meaning an ease with different cultures: still so rare and threatened a value in the new millennium as in centuries past."

In other words, a fairy tale designed to create the illusion that multiculturalism has valid historical precedents that prove it can work.

To be fair, the myth of the golden age of Islam does have a partially valid starting point: there were times in the past when Moslem societies attained higher levels of civilization and culture than they did at other times. There have been times, that is, when some Moslem lands were fit for a cultivated man to live in. Baghdad under Harun ar-Rashid (his well-documented Christian-slaying and Jew-hating proclivities notwithstanding), or Cordova very briefly under Abd ar-Rahman in the tenth century, come to mind. These isolated episodes, neither long nor typical, are endlessly invoked by Islam’s Western apologists and admirers.

This "golden" period in question largely coincides with the second dynasty of the Caliphate or Islamic Empire, that of the Abbasids, named after Muhammad’s uncle Abbas, who succeeded the Umayyads and ascended to the Caliphate in 750 AD. They moved the capital city to Baghdad, absorbed much of the Syrian and Persian culture as well as Persian methods of government, and ushered in the "golden age."

This age was marked by, among other things, intellectual achievement. A number of medieval thinkers and scientists living under Islamic rule, by no means all of them "Moslems" either nominally or substantially, played a useful role of transmitting Greek, Hindu, and other pre-Islamic fruits of knowledge to Westerners. They contributed to making Aristotle known in Christian Europe. But in doing this, they were but transmitting what they themselves had received from non-Moslem sources.

Three speculative thinkers, notably the three Persians al-Kindi, al-Farabi, and Avicenna, combined Aristotelianism and Neoplatonism with other ideas introduced through Islam. Greatly influenced by Baghdad’s Greek heritage in philosophy that survived the Arab invasion, and especially the writings of Aristotle, Farabi adopted the view — utterly heretical from a Moslem viewpoint — that reason is superior to revelation. He saw religion as a symbolic rendering of truth, and, like Plato, saw it as the duty of the philosopher to provide guidance to the state. He engaged in rationalistic questioning of the authority of the Koran and rejected predestination. He wrote more than 100 works, notably The Ideas of the Citizens of the Virtuous City. But these unorthodox works no more belong to Islam than Voltaire belongs to Christianity. He was in Moslem culture but not of it, indeed opposed to its orthodox core. He examples the pattern we see again and again: the best Moslems, whether judged by intellectual or political achievement, are usually the least Moslem.

The Moslem mainstream of this time, on the other hand, emphasized rigid Koranic orthodoxy and deployed Greek philosophy and science solely to buttress its authority. "They were rationalists in so far as they fell back on Greek philosophy for their metaphysical and physical explanations of phenomena; still, it was their aim to keep within the limits of orthodox belief." But when the thinkers went too far in their free inquiry into the secrets of nature, paying little attention to the authority of the Koran, they aroused suspicion of the rulers both in North Africa and Spain, as well as in the East. Persecution, exile, and death were frequent punishments suffered by the philosophers of Islam whose writings did not conform to the canon.

On the other side of the Empire, in Spain, Averroës exercised much influence on both Jewish and Christian thinkers with his interpretations of Aristotle. While mostly faithful to Aristotle’s method, he found the Aristotelian "prime mover" in Allah, the universal First Cause. His writings brought him into political disfavor and he was banished until shortly before his death, while many of his works in logic and metaphysics had been consigned to the flames. He left no school.

From Spain the Arabic philosophic literature was translated into Hebrew and Latin, which contributed to the development of modern European philosophy. In Egypt around the same time, Moses Maimonides (a Jew) and Ibn Khaldun made their contribution. A Christian, Constantine "the African," a native of Carthage, translated medical works from Arabic into Latin, thus introducing Greek medicine to the West. His translations of Hippocrates and Galen first gave the West a view of Greek medicine as a whole.

The "golden age" of Islamic art lasted from AD 750 to the mid-11th century, when ceramics, glass, metalwork, textiles, illuminated manuscripts, and woodwork flourished. Lustered glass became the greatest Islamic contribution to ceramics. Manuscript illumination became an important and greatly respected art, and miniature painting flourished in Iran. Calligraphy, an essential aspect of written Arabic, developed in manuscripts and architectural decoration.

In the exact sciences the contribution of Al-Khwarzimi, mathematician and astronomer, was considerable. Like Euclid, he wrote mathematical books that collected and arranged the discoveries of earlier mathematicians. His "Book of Integration and Equation" is a compilation of rules for solving linear and quadratic equations, as well as problems of geometry and proportion. Its translation into Latin in the 12th century provided the link between the great Hindu mathematicians and European scholars. A corruption of the book’s title resulted in the word algebra; a corruption of the author’s own name resulted in the term algorithm.

The problem with turning this list of intellectual achievements into a convincing "Islamic" golden age is that whatever flourished, did so not by reason of Islam but in spite of Islam. Moslems overran societies (Persian, Greek, Egyptian, Byzantine, Syrian, Jewish) that possessed intellectual sophistication in their own right and failed to completely destroy their cultures. To give it the credit for what the remnants of these cultures achieved is like crediting the Red Army for the survival of Chopin in Warsaw in 1970! Islam per se never encouraged science, in the sense of disinterested enquiry, because the only knowledge it accepts is religious knowledge.

As Bernard Lewis explains in his book What Went Wrong? the Moslem Empire inherited "the knowledge and skills of the ancient Middle east, of Greece and of Persia, it added to them new and important innovations from outside, such as the manufacture of paper from China and decimal positional numbering from India." The decimal numbers were thus transmitted to the West, where they are still mistakenly known as "Arabic" numbers, honoring not their inventors but their transmitters.

[Mediocrates]

Furthermore, the intellectual achievements of Islam’s "golden age" were of limited value. There was a lot of speculation and very little application, be it in technology or politics. At the present day, for almost a thousand years even speculation has stopped, and the bounds of what is considered orthodox Islam have frozen, except when they have even contracted, as in the case of Wahabism. Those who try to push the fundamentals of Moslem thought any further into the light of modernity frequently pay for it with their lives. The fundamentalists who ruled Afghanistan until recently and still rule in Iran hold up their supposed golden age as a model for their people and as a justification for their tyranny. Westerners should know better.

Serge Trifkovic received his PhD from the University of Southampton in England and pursued postdoctoral research at the Hoover Institution at Stanford. His past journalistic outlets have included the BBC World Service, the Voice of America, CNN International, MSNBC, U.S. News & World Report, The Washington Times, the Philadelphia Inquirer, The Times of London, and the Cleveland Plain Dealer. He is foreign affairs editor of Chronicles.. Robert Locke is Associate Editor of Front Page Magazine.

[jcsd]

Well that article is pretty well outside of the accepted view of the Islamic civilization. The point is the people in it described as Persian etc., were equally part of Arabic civilization as someone living in Mecca (the people described spoke and wrote in Arabic and were Muslims and held clear allegiances to the Islamic empire). If you want to redefine Arabs as strictly Bedouins in Arabia only (A Bedouin in Saudi Arabia today will tell you they are the only true Arabs) that is fine but most people described as Arabs today are mostly descended from the orginal populations of the area they live in.

The Golden age in Baghdad lasted much longer than he describes in his article and can be traced through the rein of several Caliphs. By no means were all the translators and interruptors were Moslems, but the majority and the most important ones can clearly be identified as Muslim.

The decimal system was indeed obtained from the Hindus, but the version we have today is based on the Arabic style of writing these numbers and the myth that it was solely invented by the Arabs is one that orginated in the Western world.

Saying that Islam never encouraged science is absolutley absurd (the seminal work of al-Khwarimi included a preface citing his inspiration as Mohammed), the reason that science flourished at this time is because of Mohammeds command to followers to seek out knowledge.

Of course when talking of oppression,etc. against some subjects of the Islamic empire, the author is taking it out of it's hitorical context. Yes, by todays standards we would not regard the Islamic empire as particularly tolerant, but by the standards of the time it was a postive beacon of tolerance and civilization.

Again much of Arabic knowledge was inherited from previous cultures BUT that is like saying that today we have not achieved anything because we are building on the knowledge of the past.

What we regard as some of the most important Arab technological achievements at the time did have very little practical application, but to us today this knowledge is invaluable.


The magazine this article was obtained from is very right-wing and extremely Islamophobic in nature. The 'historian', Serge Trifkovic works mainly as a journalist for simlair right-wing mouthpieces and is certainly not a known or respected historian. However he is an extreme anti-Muslim Serb nationalist who has made a career out of attacking Muslims in print and denying Serbian atrocities in the former Yugoslavia.

[cerulean]

jcsd, I do have the right book (not your copy though ;) ).

I haven't had time to look more at it, though, but hope to get back to this all shortly and post what it does say on the subject.

[reason]

Originally posted by cerulean
jcsd, I do have the right book (not your copy though ;) ).

I haven't had time to look more at it, though, but hope to get back to this all shortly and post what it does say on the subject.

Jcsd , thank you for your unbiased post. Im glad to see there are open minded Jews.