Egypt Plays Host to Hamas & Fatah Terrorists

[ibrodsky]

Ostensibly at peace with Israel and an ally of the U.S., Egypt has offered to host a meeting between Fatah and Hamas. Its claimed that Fatah wants Hamas to limit its mass murder attacks to the IDF and Jews living in Judea and Samaria.

Egypt imagines that it presents itself as a positive and moderating force by hosting these terrorists. In reality, it exposes the fact that terrorism against defenseless civilians is so widely accepted in the Arab world that Egypt's leaders are not even aware that openly and knowingly hosting such a meeting is the same as giving terrorists safe harbor.

Hopefully, after Saddam is deposed the US will demand an end to Syria's illegal occupation of Lebanon and support for terrorists such as Hizbollah.

For now, no action is required against Egypt, as watching Iraq and Syria fall will cause desired changes in Cairo. For example, they will either stop broadcasting anti-semitic garbage or find themselves at odds with the world's only superpower.

[whereamigod]

At least Egypt is making an effort. More than could be said about the Israelis. I don't like government negotiating with terror either, but the world has seen that these groups are forces to be reckoned with. What is the worst that happens? Hamas and other groups say no? But if they somehow do change their policies of terrorism, then all the better. Maybe I'm living a pipedream, but its obvious that we've exhausted all other options (we see the results) maybe its time to go down the path less travelled. Peace.

[Mediocrates]

I'm sure you don't mean in this instance that Israel is somehow on the hook to be responsible for arranging a meeting between Fatah and Hamas. What makes you think they would agree?

[whereamigod]

Not what I said, what I said is that the Egyptians are making an effort. The Israeli's are not, I know, I know.they offered everything to the Palestinians, but they just threw it back in their face. Screaming that they want to expel Arafat and there will be no peace discussions does nothing but increase the cycle of violence.

[Mediocrates]

What are the possible outcomes of this Egyptian effort? Let's examine that for a moment in no particular order.

1 - Nothing, no outcome, hot air
2 - Strengthing of alliances between for better coordination
3 - Divide up Palestine into feifdoms
4 - Cross training Egyptians for terrorism or counterterrorism
5 - Damper the internal forces that want Mubareks head on a pole

Because you need a point to have a meeting like this beyond hearty hale fellows and good wishes all around.

[whereamigod]

You are absolutely right, this meeting was announced because they want everyone to know they support terrorism. Good job.

[Mediocrates]

You're probably one of those people who believes in conspiracies too. When it's usually pretty much what it looks like on it's face.

[whereamigod]

Egypt does not want negative press. Why? Because they need money. From who? Guess. If they wanted to meet in secret, trust me, they could have. Its not that difficult. Any person or group can set up secret meetings. The terrorist groups are not going to announce it, they have too much pathetic pride to admitt to discussing cease fires.

[Mediocrates]

Yet in practical terms one of the terms to be discussed was/is the distinction between shooting children inside the Green Line vs. outside. Literally. Aparently that distinction may have been tabled in favor of a weak promise to end suicide bombings for one year.

That basically is the trade-off today. One which makes I guess some grand gesture in Arab minds. That's your 'progress'.

[Tan]

Originally posted by whereamigod
Not what I said, what I said is that the Egyptians are making an effort. The Israeli's are not, I know, I know.they offered everything to the Palestinians, but they just threw it back in their face. Screaming that they want to expel Arafat and there will be no peace discussions does nothing but increase the cycle of violence.


So what u expect Israel to do? Negotiate with the likes of Yasser Arafat?

If that the case why dont u asked a third country to arrange a negotiation between Bush and Osama?

[reason]

Originally posted by Tan
So what u expect Israel to do? Negotiate with the likes of Yasser Arafat?

If that the case why dont u asked a third country to arrange a negotiation between Bush and Osama?

Egypt has every thing to gain from peace and everything to lose if the situation isnt resolved soon. For one Egypts economy is very dependant on tourism (alot of it from Isreal) , and the current situation is killing that industry. Second, Mubarak needs peace because the internal forces are putting pressure on him, with every day that passes under the current situation he loses support of the people (which was non existant anyway) due to a bad economy.

If you dont think Mubarak is sincere in his arbritration then you are mistaken.

[elke]

Originally posted by reason
Egypt has every thing to gain from peace and everything to lose if the situation isnt resolved soon. For one Egypts economy is very dependant on tourism (alot of it from Isreal) , and the current situation is killing that industry. Second, Mubarak needs peace because the internal forces are putting pressure on him, with every day that passes under the current situation he loses support of the people (which was non existant anyway) due to a bad economy.

If you dont think Mubarak is sincere in his arbritration then you are mistaken.

Not to be facetious, but...

How would you explain Mubarak's comment that if he had $100M he'd start a war with Israel? How would you explain the "Horseman Without a Horse" thing?

[whereamigod]

"So what u expect Israel to do? Negotiate with the likes of Yasser Arafat? If that the case why dont u asked a third country to arrange a negotiation
between Bush and Osama?"

Yes, I do expect them to negotiate with Arafat. Why? Lets look. Past couple of months/years, there has been no real negotiations. And what has happened? A never ending cycle of violence that has claimed the lives of nearly 2,000. Can any Israeli truly say they feel safe? Buses have become battle fields. Palestinian civilians (especially children)are being murdered killed like the act is going out of style. Has anything been gained. I hate to tell you, but guess who's winning? Palestinains have always been poor. But now the Israeli's are right behind them. Your people are not safe, your economy is nearing collapse, and most of your people do not support your tactics. So yeah, I say negotiate. What is the worst that could happen. 10 kids aren't murdered? If you think Osama and Arafat are the same, then there is no reason for me to reply. Go to your local library and please dear god read a book. Not just the stuff thats posted here by the newsguy and lamplighter. You need real info, not their pathetic nazi propagana.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by whereamigod


Yes, I do expect them to negotiate with Arafat. Why? Lets look. Past couple of months/years, there has been no real negotiations. And what has happened? A never ending cycle of violence that has claimed the lives of nearly 2,000.

Typical Arab propaganda. Yaser Arafat is the Father of Modern Terrorism. Ever since he was allowed to return to the territories he has worked night and day to build a terrorist infrastructure and terrorist society. Arafat is a mass murderer and should be placed in front of a firing squad.

Only by exploiting the fact that most people know little about history -- even recent history -- can people like you get away with suggesting it is worthwhile negotiating with a man who has never kept a single agreement.


Can any Israeli truly say they feel safe? Buses have become battle fields.

No, there are no battles taking place on buses. You are just trying to dignify the evil Arab terrorists who mass murder innocent people on buses, in cafes, and in their bedrooms.


Palestinian civilians (especially children)are being murdered killed like the act is going out of style. Has anything been gained. I hate to tell you, but guess who's winning?

Yes, the problem is that Islamists do not value life. They use their children as fodder.

Let's pretend Israel lies when she says that Palestinian militants shoot from behind crowds of rock throwing kids. Then explain why children are taught that suicide mass murderers are noble. Then explain why Arafat calls for more "martyrs." Then explain why Chechnyan Islamist terrorists declared "We are more keen on dying than you are keen on living."

No, what we are dealing with is the Islamist culture of Death and Destruction.


Palestinains have always been poor. But now the Israeli's are right behind them. Your people are not safe, your economy is nearing collapse, and most of your people do not support your tactics.

Thanks for the advice, Tokyo Rose. Not that you would know democracy if it fell on your head. We'll wait to see who is elected, and by what margin, in the next Israel election.

Here in the U.S., the electorate is turning to the right. They want tough leaders who understand there is nothing to negotiate with mass murderers.


So yeah, I say negotiate. What is the worst that could happen. 10 kids aren't murdered? If you think Osama and Arafat are the same, then there is no reason for me to reply. Go to your local library and please dear god read a book. Not just the stuff thats posted here by the newsguy and lamplighter. You need real info, not their pathetic nazi propagana.

More Arab propaganda.

Israel made the foolish mistake of negotiating with Arafat's corrupt, terrorist regime. But not to worry, we are crushing your beloved terrorists. Perhaps in time, after every house in Arafatistan has been destroyed, the Arab terrorists will pack their bags and go back to Arabia where they can kill each other just like they do in Lebanon.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by whereamigod
Go to your local library and please dear god read a book. Not just the stuff thats posted here by the newsguy and lamplighter. You need real info, not their pathetic nazi propagana.

*LOL* Thanks I needed a good laugh.

You wouldn’t know Nazi propaganda if it stared you in the face.

[elke]

Go to your local library and please dear god read a book. Not just the stuff thats posted here by the newsguy and lamplighter. You need real info, not their pathetic nazi propagana.

Do us all a favor: go to the library and read a book on the real Nazis. I am completely losing patience with these unfounded, silly, ignorant, and callous comparisons.

[jcsd]

Well, as someone who has studied European 20th centary history, certain articles posted on the forum section of this site DO bear a stylistic resemblance to Nazi propganda, particularly the emotive style an the posing of questions and instantly giving the answer BUT I would not say that Newsguy and L@mplighter are the culprits.

But that aside I don't think that some of the comparisions are as callous as you think, as there is a real concern among Arabs and some Westerners that Israel is willing to commit genocide against the Palestinians should the situation escalate. Case in point a british Jew on another site, holding pro-Israel, but anti-Sharon views did express a fear that the current Likkud leadership could go down that road.

Before I get flamed, I myself from my experince talking to Israelis left and right-wing do believe that this would never happen.

[Mediocrates]

But that aside I don't think that some of the comparisions are as callous as you think, as there is a real concern among Arabs and some Westerners that Israel is willing to commit genocide against the Palestinians should the situation escalate.



This is most dangerously overloaded fallacy we hear. Here's how it works:

1 - They hate Israel
2 - Self Defense is successful therefore illegitimate
3 - Use their history against them
4 - Call them racist genocidal thugs (the theory is that this is so offensive that Israelis won't even respond to it)
5 - Combine point 4 and point 2
6 - Synthesize that into a prediction that all future actions could be genocidal in nature (throw in some more point 3)
7 - Shift from 'might happen' to 'will happen'
8 - Decry your own prediction


It's all just made up cotton candy. It isn't really based on anything real at all. It's like the Roman Emperor who declared war on the ocean (I forget who, Commodus? Nero? Claudius? Caligula?)

Or for you AngloSaxons, Canute commanding the tides to stop.


But it's common enough. Look elsewhere in current events. All we hear from the left is foaming nonsense about "Bush's mad rush to war!!!!" Except that, after over 1 year, there is no war and there is no rush.

[jcsd]

It was not my own prediction, it is a view that I have heard many times and as I said not one I agree with. BUT the whole point is that the people in general who fear it are geniune in their fears.

btw King Canute was not an Anglo-Saxon

[Mediocrates]

Danish? I forget.

[jcsd]

Viking/Danish

[Mediocrates]

thanks, that changes everything.

[elke]

But a paranoid schizophrenic is also genuine in his/her fear of persecution. Does that make their fears justified? Do we tell them that their assessment of the situation is correct? Of course not! We put them away in a mental institution and ply them with antipsychotic medications!

Those who are genuinely "afraid that Israelis will perform genocide" need to be reassured, and pointed in the right direction - which is not done by running the "Protocols" on state-sponsored TV. Mostly, however, this is all a red herring, and is designed to ensure the focus of the populace on the external imaginary threat, rather than their own failure to provide anything resembling security and prosperity.

[jcsd]

But this fear does not come completly out of thin air, you forget that someone on this very forum did propose exactly what these people fear and though I think this person is and will remain in the small minority, the extreme settlers who shoot and bomb Palestinians for living in the 'historic Jewish homeland' show that this is not one voice alone. The tatics employed by Sharon against the Palestinians show also do little to comfort them. Indeed if I had only the knowledge of these particular people and had not sort out the entire and representative range of Israeli opinion I probably would not of totally ruled it out.

Of course there are pro-Israeli 's who fear exactly the same thing and their fear stems equally from the actions and words of the settler's, the poster on this forum and Sharon's polar-opposites, but it is Israel are firmly in the driving seat which lead the westerners concerned to fear more for the Palestinians safety.

[elke]

Well, no group is immune to "fruits and nuts". However, if you consider the Palestinian fears of genocide as based on more than thin air, how much more valid are the fears of the Jews?

The fact of the matter is that vast majority of the Israelis are not nuts - as you have pointed out yourself. Genocide is not likely to become an issue here. However, the military operations do indeed create much suffering - suffering utterly unnecessary and counterproductive to all but a handful of ideologues and selfish, callous monarchs and theocrats - who are the true culprits in this whole tragedy.

[Tan]

Originally posted by whereamigod
Yes, I do expect them to negotiate with Arafat. Why? Lets look. Past couple of months/years, there has been no real negotiations. And what has happened? A never ending cycle of violence that has claimed the lives of nearly 2,000. ..... Has anything been gained.

U have to go and ask yourself who walk away from the negotiating table and started the intifada first.

The fact here is that if Israel simply just go back to the negotiating table under the pressure of violence, then Yasser Arafat may think that his tactic works.

This will further encourage him to resort to violence inorder to gain more concession from Israel.



I hate to tell you, but guess who's winning? Palestinains have always been poor. But now the Israeli's are right behind them. Your people are not safe, your economy is nearing collapse, and most of your people do not support your tactics. So yeah, I say negotiate.

Actually I am not an Israeli and I am not a jew. The most important thing here for Israel is security. Israel have the right to do all the thing neccessary to protect her citizen. It not you r people who are being killed and it not your love one who are threaten.

If u look at the problem from a historical perspective, it was not Israel who force the Palestine. Rather their suffering are a result of their very own doing. Ask yourself who started the intifada?



What is the worst that could happen. 10 kids aren't murdered? If you think Osama and Arafat are the same, then there is no reason for me to reply. Go to your local library and please dear god read a book. Not just the stuff thats posted here by the newsguy and lamplighter. You need real info, not their
pathetic nazi propagana.

Arafat is actually a terrorist. In the 70s and 80s his PLO and those org that is affiliated to PLO were infamous for hijacking airliners. He is the main culprit for causing civil war in Lebonan.

I do not rely my info on what forumers say. I do read extensively on this issue btw.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by jcsd
But this fear does not come completly out of thin air,


Sure it does. We've heard this "Any second now, you just see" for years and years. Hasn't happened. No matter how many martyrs want to be created.


you forget that someone on this very forum did propose exactly what these people fear and though

We have, what power?


the extreme settlers who shoot and bomb Palestinians for living in the 'historic Jewish homeland'

Man bites dog story. It's news worthy because it's so rare. But I guess you have to make hay while the sun shines, no?


The tatics employed by Sharon against the Palestinians show also do little to comfort them.

It's not supposed to.


Indeed if I had only the knowledge of these particular people and had not sort out the entire and representative range of Israeli opinion I probably would not of totally ruled it out.

Another Prozac moment. All Jews are evil. All Jews secretly run the world. All Jews are in secret communication with one another. We are such a powerful monolithic secret society that everyone knows about it.

which lead the westerners concerned to fear more for the Palestinians safety.

'More' is misplaced. I would suggest 'only'.

[jcsd]

Why do you have to invoke zog as a defence?

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by jcsd
Why do you have to invoke zog as a defence?

"zog"?

[jcsd]

zog is right-wing nutcases conspiracy theory -zionist organized government