Actual homelands of "palestinians"

[watcher]

It's a historically proven fact that "palestine" is merely a label to cover over Israel. It is only logical that this label should be removed since Israel is back home since the diaspora is over. This is never saying "palestinians" must completely leave Israel... That is purely dependent upon their actions. By their actions it is only reasonable and logical that they should return to their own homes, their own countries.

Sorry but still haven't completely studied where they came from other than the countries: Syria, Lebanon, some parts of Greece, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, some parts of Italy, some parts of Egypt, Turkey. So since I don't have complete knowledge as of yet of their homelands... perhaps others may give enlightenment of their actual origins though many "palestinians" know which countries they came from.

If they return to their proper countries perhaps they may not have a refugee problem.

[McSceptic]

If we're going to re-wind the tape of history it's worth noting that Abraham himself was an immigrant from Ur of the Chaldees (in what is now modern day Iraq. Hmm).

Are you ready to move everyone else back to their respective starting points? Perhaps we should just give everything back to the Inuit?

[watcher]

This is true Abraham was from Ur until Israel came to the promised land... It is also true that no one can claim the homeland of Israel but Israel. It cannot be refuted that "palestine" is just a label to cover over Israel, and they have no claim whatsoever of any land within Israel just for the fact "palestine is a created name. Israel still exists so no need for "palestine".

[McSceptic]

I think we can both agree that everyone, with the possible exception of some of the inhabitants of the Great Rift Valley, is an immigrant of some sort. Israelites, Palestinans, Americans, native Americans, whatever.

None of these groups got their land by appealing to some kind of Court of History, or indeed managed to keep it once someone better organised and more purposeful came along. You make up the reasons or invent your mythology after you have possession.

If you were to base the claim to land on who used to own it (which I think is silly), the Palestinans could put up a strong case for being closer to the original Israelites than the modern day version. The Palestinans are semitic (descended from Shem), clan-based, undemocratic, have an irrational belief that their religion is the right one (the Muslims at least, the Palestinan Christians seem to be in eclipse) and oppress women. The modern Israelis by contrast, in so far as they bother to make a link back to the past, are more like an historical re-encactment society. Dust off a flag, resurrect a language, use an old script. But they’re essentially a Western people, with Western values.

But as I said, this stuff doesn’t mean anything. No lawyer ever founded a country.

I think the tragedy for the Israelis is that they’re a hundred years too late in what they’re trying to do.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by McSceptic
I think the tragedy for the Israelis is that they’re a hundred years too late in what they’re trying to do.

Actually, they're about 10 years too early at the moment.

In 10 years, there will be alternative forms of energy and the world will no longer be blackmailed by Arab oil. I predict that at that time, even Europe will no longer be so eager to justify Arab terrorism, and then there will be a rational solution to the Mideast conflict.

[McSceptic]

A bit off-topic, but to reply to your comment.

Maybe, but the oil thing doesn't bother us Europeans too much. What would the Arab oil-exporting countries do if they didn't sell it to us? Drink it? They need our markets, so they can't exert much pressure on us. Besides the Russians, Venezuelans, Nigerians etc would just up production.

I think the longer term threat to Israel would come from a democratic Syria or Iraq (or both). Richer, better-organised and with some decent weapons-systems for once. Could be a while coming, but the Arabs have only just caught up with the idea of a nation state so who knows? 50-100 years? But if you guys are going to be camping out there for the long haul you'd better be ready for it.

In connection with that, its a feature of economics that resource-rich countries tend to be quite poor. The richest countries in the world per capita are the small North European democracies. Oil probably holds the Arabs back by proppoing up unsavoury regimes.

But we're off-topic. Or are we? Blut und Eisen, as Mr Bismarck would say!

[watcher]

You say' "I think we can both agree that everyone, with the possible exception of some of the inhabitants of the Great Rift Valley, is an immigrant of some sort. Israelites, Palestinans, Americans, native Americans, whatever.

None of these groups got their land by appealing to some kind of Court of History, or indeed managed to keep it once someone better organised and more purposeful came along. You make up the reasons or invent your mythology after you have possession."

You can't say that these invented "palestinians" are better organized and more purposeful... What is the purpose of terrorism which many "palestinians" are specialized in?

you said, "If you were to base the claim to land on who used to own it (which I think is silly), the Palestinans could put up a strong case for being closer to the original Israelites than the modern day version. The Palestinans are semitic (descended from Shem), clan-based, undemocratic, have an irrational belief that their religion is the right one (the Muslims at least, the Palestinan Christians seem to be in eclipse) and oppress women. The modern Israelis by contrast, in so far as they bother to make a link back to the past, are more like an historical re-encactment society. Dust off a flag, resurrect a language, use an old script. But they’re essentially a Western people, with Western values."

When rome created the name "palestine" true they settled many decendants of shem but they also brought in those of Japeth and perhaps brought up some from ham into the land of Israel which again they renamed "palestine". They also allowed part of the people of Israel to remain who were never really a western people, thus had no western values.

you also say, "But as I said, this stuff doesn’t mean anything. No lawyer ever founded a country."

Aren't boundries based upon historical Treaties, agreements settled between all parties involved? When did Israel agree to be removed from home? When did Israel agree to have it's name replaced with "palestine"?

Finally you said, "I think the tragedy for the Israelis is that they’re a hundred years too late in what they’re trying to do."

It's never too late to come home.

[McSceptic]

*** You can't say that these invented "palestinians" are better organized and more purposeful... What is the purpose of terrorism which many "palestinians" are specialized in?

I can’t speak for the Palestinians, so I don’t know what purpose they’re pursuing. As an outsider, it seems to me they’re pursuing some kind of Hizbullah model. Israel can’t afford a second withdrawl so I don’t think that will work. I think the Palestinians would have done better to make it less personal and more effective: hit economic targets. I don’t know what those are in Israeli terms, water desalination plants, power-stations? Both well-guarded I would think. But a satchel charge will take out a substation, can’t guard all of those. Even a small bomb will put a motorway flyover out of use for a while. Cap a few foreign businessmen at the airport? Use sympathisers in US and Europe to cap a few shareholders and fundmanagers connected with Israeli corporations? But as you say it requires a sense of purpose and an organisation. Not generally Arab traits.

*** Aren't boundries based upon historical Treaties, agreements settled between all parties involved? When did Israel agree to be removed from home? When did Israel agree to have it's name replaced with "palestine"?

You make my point for me. Treaties get signed when the shooting stops. If sides are equally matched (say France and Germany in one of their wars) the terms reflect this - you get screwed but not too much. If one side is overwhelmingly the victor the other side gets completely screwed, e.g. the southern US states vs. the northern states.

A treaty won’t keep anyone safe. The UN designated Srebrenica a safe haven. The Serbs designated it a target. The UN used lawyers sitting in New York and Geneva, the Serbs used tanks sitting down the road. Who do you think won?

*** Finally you said, "I think the tragedy for the Israelis is that they’re a hundred years too late in what they’re trying to do."

*** It's never too late to come home.

Admirable sentiments. Together with 50 cents they might buy you a cup of coffee.

By too late, I mean that the world isn’t what it was when we were setting up our other colonies. Nowadays we Europeans (and I suppose the Americans) get all squeamish when we see a public act of ugliness like Israel. But that’s because we think of the Israelis as being like us. If the Israelis all agreed to wear head-scarves (I forget the Arabic for it) for a few years while they shot demonstrators and bulldozed olive groves, we’d lose interest in no time. Just more crazy foreigners.

[aid]

Originally posted by McSceptic
A bit off-topic, but to reply to your comment.


I think the longer term threat to Israel would come from a democratic Syria or Iraq (or both). Richer, better-organised and with some decent weapons-systems for once. Could be a while coming, but the Arabs have only just caught up with the idea of a nation state so who knows? 50-100 years? But if you guys are going to be camping out there for the long haul you'd better be ready for it.


"Democratic Syria, Iraq"?

What's that? Say hot ice.

A people of slaves cannot be democratic.

If you are talking a thousand years from now, then let's meet then and discuss it.

Until then, adieu.

[McSceptic]

Complacency kills.

Iran will probably have nuclear and ballistic capability within only five years, for instance.

And if you imagine an Islamic country can't be a democracy, check Turkey.

The Middle Eastern countries are only just getting to grips with modernity. The Asian countries have made the transition, why not the Middle East?

Besides, if you want to gaze into a crystal ball, you don't have to go a thousand years ahead. South-East Asians are the fastest growing group in the US. They'll control NY within a decade or so, other states thereafter. The Hispanics are making steady progress, the Americans will prpbably have one for president within 50 years. Israel will have been replaced by other people's concerns and US foreign policy would reflect that. It would be exacerbated if the ultra-Orthodox take over in Israel as a I understand they could do.


By that point Israel could be run by the ultra-Orthodox.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by McSceptic
Complacency kills.

Iran will probably have nuclear and ballistic capability within only five years, for instance.

True. This is exactly why I hope that the US makes Iran (and its Lebanese missile-monkeys) into the next destination for its war on terrorism.

The complacency towards Iran ever since the Ayatollah and the US hostages in the 80s, is largely responsible for thousands of victims of Islamic terrorism all over the world.

[Steve]

> By that point Israel could be run by the ultra-Orthodox.

Maybe that's what Israel needs - a bit of Torah observance. For the first time in modern history, Jews have their own homeland, with freedom to practice their religion...and more and more people are turning their backs everyday. It's a shame that there is any intermarriage at all in Israel. Israel needs to do a little tshuva, and maybe if we do it right, the Moshiach will FINALLY come!

Steve

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Steve
... For the first time in modern history, Jews have their own homeland, with freedom to practice their religion...and more and more people are turning their backs everyday.

Steve,

Maybe part of that exact freedom of religion is for many Israelis to be able to choose a non-Orthodox lifestyle.

Nice Website, btw.

[Steve]

Thanks re: the website. I'm trying to drive more traffic to it - I'm getting about 50 hits a day, which is better than last month. Anybody have any ideas how to get more hits?

With regards to Israelis choosing a non-Orthodox lifestyle, that's cool. However, I find that some Israelis are anti-Orthodox. What's the point of Jews having their own country, if they're just going to act like us North Americans anyway. I think religion has been missing from the Israeli government since it's inception. Apparently books like "Perfidy" account how the government actually intentionally created a scenario that would pit Orthodox versus non-Orthodox. Hey, I'm not Orthodox myself, but I do think Israel could use a little injection of Judaism. There's something very wrong to me when America has G-d in it's consitution, on it's dollar bill and in it's national anthem, but Israel doesn't talk about G-d anywhere. Why isn't G-d in the Israeli constitution or in the national anthem? I mean, I think it would be important for the nation that first had a relationship with G-d, to act as if G-d did something for us. And, if we don't believe in G-d, we don't deserve Israel.

Steve


Originally posted by NewsGuy


Steve,

Maybe part of that exact freedom of religion is for many Israelis to be able to choose a non-Orthodox lifestyle.

Nice Website, btw.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Steve
Anybody have any ideas how to get more hits?

Yes, you're doing the exact right thing by participating in an intelligent manner in this forum (and other related forums, too).

When you post an interesting point of view, you are contributing to this forum and actually also running a free ad for your site, which is an ad of the best kind becuase it shows interesting content and provides a quick link.

But it requires continuity and patience.

Good luck, Steve.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Steve

1. However, I find that some Israelis are anti-Orthodox.

2. Hey, I'm not Orthodox myself, but I do think Israel could use a little injection of Judaism.

1. Yes, many Israelis are anti-Orthodox mainly because they perceive the Orthodox as trying to impose a certain lifestyle on the entire country, like shutting down theaters, restaurants and public transportation on the Sabbath.

Now, taking into account that in Israel there is a 6-day work week, that leaves very little recreational time for Israelis, if the 1 day of vacation is full of restrictions. Just something to think about.

2. Actually, the Orthodox community, which amounts to approx. 12 percent of the total Jewish population of Israel, has a good deal of political power and influence over society, (and rightfully so). For example, in yesterday's budget talks, the Orthodox leaders were able to completely influence monetary allocation for social programs that the Orthodox favor. Also, because of the parliamentary system in Israel, the Orthodox parties like Shas and the Mafdal always had a lot of power. I think they're getting their due.

So far as having an impact on the public values, I agree that in many ways Israeli society might benefit from keeping those values in high regard, but not as an oppressive tool to force their beliefs on others.

[watcher]

Fine website indeed! :) It is unfortunate there's so many pop up ads... The views you shared remind me about some of my past posts in other forums:

It seems anti-semitism is reaching critical level once again as usual... then again It's obvious to all the only way it will stop is when G-D steps in. Of the many instances when that happened the one that most comes to mind is Eliyyahu(Elijah) and the prophets of baal where Eliyyahu mocked them and G-D put them to shame. There's nothing to be divided in Israel, Israel is the chosen people in the promised land, that is granted to no one else. Israel is to be an example to the nations, not as one with the nations. When Israel is whole and showing appreciation for the fact of receiving the land promised given the same way the Instruction for life has been given to Israel... to be held forever, then the other nations are to be as one with Israel, never to be vis-versa! Really then it is not an issue of lack of unity of just Israel but lack of unity of gentiles with Israel. Everyone is given a chance to accept G-D or instructions given to us all would not exist.

What is the tiny part of a piece of land on Earth Israel without the Torah? Can we truly stand without the Truth? How did we always stand in the past? Should we really trust in nations who support other nations who seek complete destruction of ourselves? Who would we be if we did? Was there any assimilation in the dispora our are we true and complete upon return? Really where is Faith? Where is Trust? Where is the Torah in our lives or are backs still turned seeking help from others who seek our destruction? If not directly then in a roundabout way. Are these questions valid to any point? If not...

Israel never disappeared despite the diasporas Israel is in the Promised land. Try as they might rid us... the Chosen people will forever stay! The tiny speck on the globe Israel overcame many pogroms and efforts to try to obliterate the people of Israel if not that then to employ some sort of conversion to their ways by the many surrounding peoples. One could never compare Israel to a nation of terrorists... Yet I hate to sound too extreme, there is more pity towards the terrorists backing them up than Israel! Israel is not to be as the others but to always remember how and why Israel is the Chosen people in the Promised land. The tiny speck of land on the globe is all we really need. Those plotting against us will fail their devices will work against them! Israel stands Forever! We always should remember and appreciate such a wonderful gift of existing as Israel. If I sound Extreme myself I don't wish to offend but give glory right now and not worry there's always people who get offended, It's impossible to please everyone but as long as the One is pleased it's all that matters... but who am I.

[aid]

Without Judaism we disappear from the face of the earth in no time, even without all Arab terrorists, Nazis and Commies.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by watcher
Yet I hate to sound too extreme, there is more pity towards the terrorists backing them up than Israel!

Well said.

It is important to keep in mind just who are those who pity the terrorists. That will put things in perspective.

[Steve]

Points taken - Israel doesn't have the luxurious 2 day weekend that we get here in North America. I do understand, however, that Israelis get half of Friday off, no? Anyway, I'm hoping that a new awareness sweeps through Israel soon. People must be aware that every time something bad happened to the Jews (even back in Biblical times), it's because of the Jews actions.

I think if changes aren't made carefully, then Israel could end up kind of like Iran, which is bad. Religious throwing their diapers at seculars won't help though - religious Jews must open their arms to all Jews and treat secular Jews as brothers for a change. People never like to think that they HAVE to do something. If religious people begin to show seculars why what they are doing is better, then maybe we'll have some changes coming. People raised from birth as secular Jews don't know the benefits of living a G-d-loving life (I'm just learning now!) - they don't understand it because it's never been taught to them. That is why it is important that Israel begins to teach Torah in all schools - it's required study here in Jewish school in Canada, why isn't required study in the land of the Jewish people, Israel?

I'm confused...

Steve


Originally posted by NewsGuy


1. Yes, many Israelis are anti-Orthodox mainly because they perceive the Orthodox as trying to impose a certain lifestyle on the entire country, like shutting down theaters, restaurants and public transportation on the Sabbath.

Now, taking into account that in Israel there is a 6-day work week, that leaves very little recreational time for Israelis, if the 1 day of vacation is full of restrictions. Just something to think about.

2. Actually, the Orthodox community, which amounts to approx. 12 percent of the total Jewish population of Israel, has a good deal of political power and influence over society, (and rightfully so). For example, in yesterday's budget talks, the Orthodox leaders were able to completely influence monetary allocation for social programs that the Orthodox favor. Also, because of the parliamentary system in Israel, the Orthodox parties like Shas and the Mafdal always had a lot of power. I think they're getting their due.

So far as having an impact on the public values, I agree that in many ways Israeli society might benefit from keeping those values in high regard, but not as an oppressive tool to force their beliefs on others.

[Flame]

Jews lived in Iraq for over 2000 years and were kicked out in 48. Perhaps Jews, having a historicl tie to Bagdad and other parts of Iraq, should re-claim the land, and hand that over to the pals for their new nation.

[McSceptic]

I understood Israel was founded by secular Jews, rather than particularly religous ones. That's why it takes the form of a western nation state as developed in Europe and American, rather than attempting to re-create any of the forms of the historical Israel.

Introducing religion directly into the government would be a move away from western norms.

Besides, isn't there something about changing horses in mid-stream?