Experiences with Judaism

[Mediocrates]

I have to say I haven't thought this one out fully but after reading a few thousand words attacking and defending what Islam is or is not I have to say it's largely a distraction. So I opened this thread to accomplish something altogether different. I wanted a place where people could talk about their own experiences with Judaism. It can be stories, questions, questions, concerns, learning. It can be a blog. I'd prefer it to be open ended for now.

Here's your chance to talk about your shul, or if you're not religious your experience with maybe older relatives who were religious, your interest or lack of interest in learning more about Judaism or aspects of it.

I'll go first. Clearly it is Shabbat and I'm writing this so I am not Shomer Shabbos. Which would anger my Chassid Lubavitch Rabbi almost as much as being an atheist. Of course since I've already converted once, to Conservative Judaism by an Orthodox teacher who is (apparently) not recognized by the Lubavitch as being Orthodox enough I'll probably do it again. After all it's just learning and learning is not bad. I go to shul almost every Sat morning and many Friday nights. All my children are in religious classes of one kind or another, both before and after B'nai Mitzvah classes. My S.O. is very religious in comparison - Conservadox and is a religious and Hebrew teacher. I grew up with no Judiasm at all - paternal grandparents were Socialist labor union organizers,scientists and communists who came to the new world and left the old one behind except for speaking Yiddish at home and reading Yiddish newspapers. Maternal side mixture of Jews and lapsed Catholics who's history is how do we say ~~ "colorful?" But I digress ~~

Today Judaism is an important part of my life and I try to integrate it in a deep yet not entirely spiritual way. If I had to had to claim belief in a deity and someone had a gun to my head I'd have to make the Hume or the Spinoza argument (and he got excommunicated).

Enough prattling on about me.~~ what say you?

[Kolyahu]

Shalom, again I meet a very interesting topic from some one who's thinking, and not just keeping habits for their own sake. I was a Xian 4 32 yrs. of life, til I began asking the right questions. Who the Moshiach is, is not the importance of the issue. In my very uneducated opinion, the correct question should be, and always should have been, 'What is Moshiach?' without answering this in a common dialogue, and without coming to an agreed answer, how can any one state with alacrity, much less with voracity; who is, was, or will be the Moshiach? My opinion? not that it really matters; Simplicity: G-d and His word are one, we r made in His image, yet He has no image! R we nothing then? Truth 1: Our words R us b4 we speak them. The nazarene is not G-d, His Words R. He was speaking to them as though he were the Torah. Only the Torah can say,"I and My Father are one." and "No one comes to the Father except through me." Was he the Moshiach? That's not 4 me to tell you. You must answer 4 yourself on that. If the Moshiach was with the Creator when all else was not even thought of, then Moshiach has always been and always will be here and now... Deut. 30 it is within you to come to that level of righteousness, for it is merely a goal to reach for within your soul. Follow this simple teaching: Be led by the goal of the spirit of holiness (Y) let it guide your heart(H) be as a good son to G-d and seek wisdom(V) put it into action daily (H). The torah of the nazarene by it's symbolic lettering, the shapes of the letters, and it's mystery: YHVH in their correct order to succeed. ;)
There is mention of a mysterious 'Moshiach bet Yosef' in the Talmud. He is not the Moshiach to the Jewish people, if this reference is about the Nazarene. He would indeed be the bearer of the spirit of Moshiach to the goyim, for the purpose of calling back the descendants of Bet Efraim who had bcome goy (Hosea 8:8). It is not the man that is important but his message. this is why he set into motion the circumstances that led to his death. So that they would not worship him as a god like the goyim worshipped Ceasar! I'm surprised so few understand even now.
Those who do worship him as a god, R NOT truly his followers. They R in name only. they ignore his words about hating others and have done so since they deified him in a council of goy men, 280yrs aftr his death. I worship HaShem alone. So much for Xianity in my life. I opted 4 Judaism with the hope of finally breaking new ground in the search for truth and Chai. I have not been disappointed in discussion yet. I don't need a brand name to follow the footsteps of the wise. If there is no name that can label all of what the Creator is, then I don't need a label of limitations either. He is what He is, and I is what I is. As I walk in the path of Hatzaddikim, maybe I'll know me better, so I can relate better with Him. Shalom V'ohr to you

[Kolyahu]

My rebb said,"No matter who the Moshiach turns out to be, if I am planting trees, I will still be planting trees."
If you want to examine where we are at this point in time, in referrence to HaTanakh, and other source material. I'd be very happy to delve into the matter. If we go by it, as The authority and as the plan that will hold true, arguable or not, then we have much to debate and consider. I view Torah v'Neviim differently of course but this should be no barrier to dialogue. Why, my emphasis on this matter? I am 92% convinced that we have seen the Moshiach, and he is not what was expected by any religious measure. All the signs were there, in fact the event was central to all that has been occuring, before and since the appearance of the person to which I refer. Like a large stone dropped into a small puddle, the shock waves are still causing more causes each day, worldwide.
Further, while all these calamities strike the world, a certain movement has begun to gather steam. It is global in scope, and if all else holds true to the Script-ure, It will affect the Jewish people very much, and shortly I might add.
Jews,Xians, and Muslims wearing tallith v'tzitzis! Praying not to Iesus, nor to Allah, but to HaShem. Some even invoking it, toward forming a nation of Kohenim and neviim. Without regard to race,gender,color,etc. Jews and goyim working to mend the world. Yetzekiel 37 speaks of something like this. I am in dialogue with them. but am not a member of their alliance.
The Nazarene never asked any Jew to convert to Xianity, there was no such critter at the time. So, if you knew you had to change the beliefs of the pagans in order to have world peace, and you were living 20 centuries ago, what kind of plan would you make, and how would you begin implementing it? THX (yes, I M a bit on the side of lunacy)
side-bar: Levi-Aten sounds close to Ahken-Aten, any input to possbl ramifications there? I have an Astronomical one for U.

[Kolyahu]

What is the name of G-d's sword?
What does its' name mean?
Are ther any hidden messages in its' name? ;)
Does it have bearing on today's world?
How?
Let me know what you uncover about it and we can compare notes.
[Hints: Koheles 10, B'reshis 3, Moshe's conflict with the wizards of Mitzraim, Iyob last 2 chptrs., athbash cipher, and vertical alignment of words to give height, Yeshayahu 27 & midrash HaMinim 'bris chadasha?' sefer Hebrews 4:12]
Mazal Tov! :cool:

[Communication]

Many very large topics introduced here, which is a bit overwhelming since I'm new to the board, and I'm not sure I will help matters by going on what might seem like another tangent, but I would like to share a poem that I wrote (it's more of an example of a typical internal dialogue that I have with myself and the issue of Israel has been very prominent in my mind. I think you all can relate.) I would describe myself as being someone engaged deeply in the "religiosity" of Judaism but not the religion. I regularly study torah and talmud and if anyone wants to talk about the early formations of rabbinical Judaism and Christianity, I'm certainly open to this. Anyway, here's my poem:


Q: What is this aggadah? It seems like just a bunch of myths and poetry?

A: Why that's your culture. The Sages were responding to some very difficult questions: why was the Temple destroyed and our people forced into exile? Why were the other nations prospering while Zion lay in ruins and the Jewish people became the butt of everyone else’s jokes?

Q: So why didn’t the Jews return to the land?

A: The Sages felt that we needed to wait until all of our sins had been forgiven.

Q: But didn’t some return anyway?

A: Yes, some Jews returned. R. Zeira’s love for the land was so strong that he battled himself for years while living in Babylon and finally returned. He didn’t even tell his teacher because he was afraid that his teacher would ridicule him for his decision.

Q: What about Rambam; didn’t he say that a Jew should always try and live in the land of Israel, that to live in the land of Israel was the first step to fulfilling all of the laws?

A: Yes he did.

Q: And yet they refused to go?

A: Yes.

Q: Even when the noose was around their necks, they refused to listen?

A: Yes.

Q: Why?

A: I don’t know. Maybe the rabbis thought of themselves like artists who need to suffer to produce great works of art?

Q: Did the rabbis glorify suffering?

A: Yes they did.

Q: And this suffering has produced great works of art?

A: Yes it has.

Q: Considering what’s going on now, considering what has happened to us over all these years, I think I would have preferred a nation of cities rather than a book of poetry. Why did they hold out?

A: You can’t be exiled from a book.

[Kolyahu]

Absolutely, unless you exhile it from yourself, as so many have.
If the Torah were a human being, what would it say? What would it say 4,000 yrs., 2,000, 100, or even 1yr. ago? would it not say the same thing, differences of translations permitting?
I thank you for that poem.
In return, I give you an old but new perspective to consider; The Word of HaShem IS the Moshiach. Being real about it and learning its' wisdom, its'love and its' Life ; then acting upon it is what it takes, to see that spirit (character) within each of us.
Why wait for some one else when the book said,"I will never leave you nor forsake you."?
He is Not a god, not like theirs'. the word g-d is a demotion to ours'. He & His Word are One.
The mind blower? The Torah speaks thru men. The Torah spoke these words once," No one can come to My Father, except through me." and also,"No one can come to me unless My Father draws him." It was a man speaking as IF he were the Torah.
that is what I have found to be truth, on that part of the path.
I can tell that Yahweh has shined upon you, Daughter of Israel, May he keep doing so. L'Chai! Baruk atah HaShem Elohaynu natan HaTorah v'natan HaOhr L'olam HaMoshiach B'shem HaDebar L'Elohim...YHVH, Ani Hagodal. Barachah atah

[Communication]

Incredible! What a beautiful mind! After reading your post I re-read your prior two posts and then had to walk away from the computer to think about it. I could stay away three weeks and still not be prepared to offer an adequate response, so I might as well come back on and give it my best try.

I agree with you that it would have been difficult to spread what was at the time a revolutionary manefesto of montheism to the gentile nations through requiring strict observance to halacha. The Jewish people were [are] having difficulty with that ourselves and we agreed to the covenant. The nazarines made God more accessible so that the very concept could be embraced. I've also thought that if the Jews had waited for their revolt until the Roman Empire started to decay from over expansion or if the Jews had returned from the second exile sooner, then perhaps Israel could have been redeemed. But would it have been enough to bring about the redemption of the Jewish people if all the other nations did not also play a part in that redemption?

I must admit that I am very taken back by your statement regarding the words of the Christian Messiah. I have never known a convert to Judaism before and so I have never thought about his words in that light. I actually had the most incredible feeling after reading that. You say this is an old but new perspective? Where is this from? Is this a revelation that you have come to based on your own personal experiences with Christianity and now Judaism? It's another very revolutionary concept. I am totally blown away, and I hope that I am interpreting you correctly.

You also mentioned in your prior post about being created in the image of God...how much would the world change if everyone labored over that very thought alone? To look at each other and realize that every single one of us are such mysteries to each other, not unlike our God. And yet through this incredible gift of communication and all the rest of our faculties we too can attempt to look for clues to better our understanding of each other [or be easily deceived by what we think these clues reveal], just as we look to the torah to better our understanding of Him [ whoever or whatever "He" is that exists eternally everywhere].

Thanks for your post, Kolyahu! I look forward to talking to you more.

[Kolyahu]

Was the Manna leavened,or not?
Concept of the seed, is the secret to truth. Hard outer shell, soft inner core;which part has the Life of the seed?
The seed in question had a pagan/mythological hardened shell, the inner part was Torah truth and Torah Life. He said,"Except that a seed fall to the ground and die, it can by no means bring forth life."
All other goyim had 1 myth in common; Adonis/Dionysus, Tammuz,Odin. the reason for the method of death in the story.
The Romans saw THEIR myth in that event. In order to accept that person as the fulfillment of Their myth, they had to accept the hebrew scriptures. The Trojan horse of the sect from Nazaret has succeeded in many isolated people.
The fact that it has taken so long is beyond me to convey. But if you research abit on the web, you will notice many groups springing up all over the world, that have dropped the outer shell of the pagan/unclean myth. They have dropped it and begun to obey Torah. This has been occurring more & more since 1967. 3 years ago I tried to count the # of Torah observing groups, I stopped counting at 137, there were more pages.
Yes, some still hold that the man was the Messiah. In a way I guess you could see that. But in truth, it is the words of Torah that bring forth the life of Israel, therebeing my conclusion.
After reading and questioning for 12yrs., and after observing Shabbat, Kashrut, & Ha Moedim (the holy festivals) for three years **in a prison, where it is nearly impossible to do by halachic standards. I finally dropped the outer shell completely. My family? That is my present problem, they are very tradition bound christians. I can't stay here much longer because they don't understand and their biases they have a hard time with. Some of them have pretty much disowned me. I still love them & pray for them. [check: House of Yahweh, Assemblies of Yahweh, Messianic Israel Alliance] You will see that they are coming up like little green shoots out of the ground. Some one planted alot of Torah a long time ago. They are almost ready for the wording of my conclusionary thoughts. I think if that was spread abit more they too would let go of the idolatry of the outer shell. they are ripe, to see what the True Messiah is, the whole number of those who have torah life in them. Shalom
[**You shall not take of the fruit of a tree til the fourth year.]

[Micah]

I don't see why Yeshua (Jesus) couldn't be Moshiach. If He = Torah and the Torah = Moshiach, it doesn't take much to come to the conclusion that he is Moshiach. And his teachings were by no means non-Jewish. It seems that everything he taught and did oozes of Jewishness.

Many Bibles today have a slanted translation (in many they insert words that aren't even in the Greek to make verses agree with Christian doctrine) which help portay Yeshua as a Christian fighting against the Rabbis (Pharisees) when infact, all he was doing was arguing the presidence of one Mitzvah over another. He didn't disagree that the Torah should be kept in whole, and never disagreed that the Rabbis had the authority to interpret the Torah.

This discussion might be a bit off topic, so if anyone would like to create a thread for this discussion they should go right ahead.

[Mediocrates]

But in Judaism the Messiah presages an era. Clearly to the world, that era did not, has not come to be therefore according to Judaism there has been no Messiah.


Interesting you mention the Rabbinic. Its been my belief that Jesus broke the relationship between Judaism and the Rabbis, that Rabbis were not necessary to have and that neither the Mishnah nor the Gemarrah were required. Am I wrong?

What is the precidence of the mitzvoth? Do you mean prioirity. In mainstream Judaism there is no priority, that is there is no specific hierarchy nor any particular order or execution. Shomer Shabbos is what it says - 'according to' the laws (of) Shabbos. To be Chassid (holy) one must obey all 613 mitzvoth - well try to at any rate.

[Micah]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
But in Judaism the Messiah presages an era. Clearly to the world, that era did not, has not come to be therefore according to Judaism there has been no Messiah.

Chabadnicks would tend to disagree. The Rebbe is considered the Moshiach to them. I won't disagree or talk against the Rebbe being the Moshiach. He was a holy man.

Whether or not an era was started by either man can be argued.


Interesting you mention the Rabbinic. Its been my belief that Jesus broke the relationship between Judaism and the Rabbis, that Rabbis were not necessary to have and that neither the Mishnah nor the Gemarrah were required. Am I wrong?

On the contrary. He repeats over and over again that the Rabbis sit in the seat of Moshe. He also makes allusions to Oral law. He never argues that the Pharisees were wrong, just not putting priorities in the right place.


What is the precidence of the mitzvoth? Do you mean prioirity. In mainstream Judaism there is no priority, that is there is no specific hierarchy nor any particular order or execution. Shomer Shabbos is what it says - 'according to' the laws (of) Shabbos. To be Chassid (holy) one must obey all 613 mitzvoth - well try to at any rate.

If I understand correctly in Judaism if one is having spouse problems, and say family purity (Nidah) is having a negative affect on the situation, then a Rabbi depending on how he works and the situation of the couple, will rule either strict or not so strict on the family purity issue.

If you are having problems at home because you are trying to practice Shabbat, then a Rabbi might very well tell you to not to practice right now. He might tell you to work on other things like kosher, or educating your family on what Judaism is.

That is the problem Yeshua had with the Rabbis in the New Testament. They were being too strict on beginners and new converts. Never did Yeshua tell the Rabbis they were wrong.

[simont]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
[B]But in Judaism the Messiah presages an era. Clearly to the world, that era did not, has not come to be therefore according to Judaism there has been no Messiah.


Interesting you mention the Rabbinic. Its been my belief that Jesus broke the relationship between Judaism and the Rabbis, that Rabbis were not necessary to have and that neither the Mishnah nor the Gemarrah were required. Am I wrong?
B]
I've been exploring Judaism myself a bit in the past year (am going to Jerusalem in a couple of weeks). I remember that one of the first conclusions I reached was that without Halacha, handed down by the Rabbi's, Judaism is an extremely nebulous religion. In fact all I learned in my years of Reform Hebrew school was generally fluff and nonsense.
Which brings me to my own question. If I choose to live by Torah, I wouldn't be able to live a Reform/Conservative life style. I just don't get it. What is the reasoning behind partial acceptance of Torah. Reform Judaism is basically liberalism with a cool scroll (at least my experienc of it). Conservative is a bit more fuzzy-there's a wide range of practice but a general idea that you can pick and choose what you want to follow?
Here's one example...a friend of mine, who is also going to Jerusalem, got a call from his conservative Rabbi. He was basically trying to convince my friend that Orthodox Judaism was a crazy cult (this is a Jew mind you). In the mean time, he tells my friend how he has some openly gay family members who desperately want to get married, and how tragic it was that the Torah didn't accomodate them. Isn't that thinking a bit nuts? What does it mean to pick and choose? When does that stop being Judaism? This Rabbi even went so far as to look for passages that might support homosexuality even though you'd have to be blind not to notice that its forbidden. If you're a "practicing" Jew, shouldn't you love Torah and give advice accordingly, not try to bend it to your own way of thinking? Isn't that the point?

[simont]

Originally posted by Micah
Chabadnicks would tend to disagree. The Rebbe is considered the Moshiach to them. I won't disagree or talk against the Rebbe being the Moshiach. He was a holy man.

I think its a fairly small community of Chabadnicks that think this way. Sounds crazy to me. Why not believe in Jesus as the Messiah then? In any case I've met quite a number of Chabadniks and none have expressed this point of view. I'm not sure what percentage really believes it...Anyone know?

[Kolyahu]

The Sages have stated that there were just a few things created before the world. one being Moshiach. They say that HaShem looked into the Torah to do so.
At Revelation 3:12 & 19:10-12 It says The Messiah will have a NEW name, and He shall be called 'The Word of Elohim'.
So no Jesus is not the Messiah. The Word, or 'Torah' IS.

[Communication]

Originally posted by simont
I've been exploring Judaism myself a bit in the past year (am going to Jerusalem in a couple of weeks). I remember that one of the first conclusions I reached was that without Halacha, handed down by the Rabbi's, Judaism is an extremely nebulous religion. In fact all I learned in my years of Reform Hebrew school was generally fluff and nonsense.
Which brings me to my own question. If I choose to live by Torah, I wouldn't be able to live a Reform/Conservative life style. I just don't get it. What is the reasoning behind partial acceptance of Torah. Reform Judaism is basically liberalism with a cool scroll (at least my experienc of it). Conservative is a bit more fuzzy-there's a wide range of practice but a general idea that you can pick and choose what you want to follow?

I guess you need to explore this on your own and find a place where you feel comfortable. I spent two years in an Orthodox yeshiva, and I have been to both reform and conservative synagouges. I have found memories as a kid of spending the holidays at my rabbi's house with about 10 other families or going to services in a small elementry school room that was rented out for the occassion. The emphasis was on being together and that made it special for me.

But as I got older, I never found the intellectual or spiritual challenges that I was looking for in any particular strand of Judaism, and going to shul was generally pretty boring. When I finally "got it" and became really jazzed about Judaism, it was in the Beit Midrash, one that would allow me (as a woman) to study with a group of Jews from all sorts of backgrounds- reform, conservative, modern orthodox, jewish renewal, whatever...everybody gathered around the table, reading the texts and transporting ourselves into the world of the rabbis.

[Micah]

Originally posted by Kolyahu
The Sages have stated that there were just a few things created before the world. one being Moshiach. They say that HaShem looked into the Torah to do so.
At Revelation 3:12 & 19:10-12 It says The Messiah will have a NEW name, and He shall be called 'The Word of Elohim'.
So no Jesus is not the Messiah. The Word, or 'Torah' IS.

What I am saying is that Yeshua could have been the embodiment of Torah.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Micah
[B]Chabadnicks would tend to disagree. The Rebbe is considered the Moshiach to them. I won't disagree or talk against the Rebbe being the Moshiach. He was a holy man.

Whether or not an era was started by either man can be argued.


That's actually quite a schism in Lubavitch itself. My Chassidim do not believe this and they are mainstream Lubavitch Chabad. There is a group that believes this and there is a group that doesn't not and I don't think that it can be resolved at 770 Eastern Parkway.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by simont
Which brings me to my own question. If I choose to live by Torah, I wouldn't be able to live a Reform/Conservative life style. I just don't get it. What is the reasoning behind partial acceptance of Torah. Reform Judaism is basically liberalism with a cool scroll (at least my experienc of it). Conservative is a bit more fuzzy-there's a wide range of practice but a general idea that you can pick and choose what you want to follow?


All I can do is suggest if you want to explore Orthodoxy then contact Orthodox Union, that is Modern Orthodox. OU is a very specific reference as opposed to Chabad or something else. If you find that is not to your liking then you can get back into Conservative which BTW is almost uniquely American. I've never found much in the way of crisp boundaries in Conservative. You're still supposed to follow all the mitzvoth, keep kosher and so on. The key differences appear to be in the formalism of the litugy. That is, Egalitarianism, allowing women on the Bima and so on. If I had to give flip answer it would be that Conservative allows you to more or less what you want while feeling appropriate amounts of guilt, disdain, piety and superiority. Since it is anti anti Orthodoxy at its core, that makes sense.

But to go back - there are wide differences among Orthodox from extremely haredi to borderline Conservative, pluralistic.

[Mediocrates]

PS: the best definition of Chabad I've heard is "not yet".

I don't keep kosher
"not yet"
I don't go to minyan
"not yet"
I don't feel it in my heart
"not yet"

[Micah]

Hmm, I was under the impression that it was more accepted that the Rebbe was the Moshiach.

[Kolyahu]

In Russia then, I suppose chabad would be best described as ,"Nyet!" ?
Well anyway, as to Moshiach being The Torah, the Lubavitch would be considered Moshiach as well as the other Sages, the Nazarene, the prophets and Moshe, too. That's the neat thing about that thought.
If we could agree on the Torah as the premier guide for humanity and its' highest goals , as being Moshiachnu. The Change would indeed come quickly. As the Rabbinic thoughts would have it. And whether you consider it or not, (as I've stated, the words of the man are what is important,
not the man, this includes me) the nazarene stated, "I come as a thief in the night." The Moshiach is the Torah. The Age of Moshiach is within our ability, but it has to be based on trust, trust in action not just belief. It is when all of us are renewed with the light of Torah, that we shall see the light that is Moshiach in each of us, as one people.
The key on that is Yeshayahu 27:1
I will try to find a Hebrew font so that I can show you what I stumbled across. Til then the only clues I shall give you is that in Hebrew the numeric value of the words serpent and messiah equal each other. Two serpents in the name of the sword.
also King Solomon @ Koheles 10:8-14 uses the symbol of the serpent in allegory to describe the powers that words can have.
Shalom v'erev tov

[elke]

In Russia then, I suppose chabad would be best described as ,"Nyet!" ?

No, "Yescho nyet" ;)

[Tovah]

get so caught up in Moshiach?

It's late at night and I must retire, but I couldn't help comment on this thread. Waiting for Moshiach should be the least of our concerns. For me - Tikkun Olam is the foremost.

As I am most likely much older than most of you, my journey will take a bit longer to tell.

[Communication]

Originally posted by Tovah
get so caught up in Moshiach?


As I am most likely much older than most of you, my journey will take a bit longer to tell.

So come back and tell it after you have gotten some rest. B- )