I was looking for a GREAT jewish CIVILIAZTION, coudnt find some?

[IlyaFurman]

CAN SOMEONE PASTE OR TYPE SOME INFO ON JEWISH "CIVILIZATION"

Thanks

[I am David]

What?

What Jewish Civilization?

The Kingdom of Israel in ancient times, and modern Israel today.

Jewish culture: Jewish food, Jewish music, Jewish religion. Jewish everything makes the Jewish/Hebrew civilization.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by I am David
What?

What Jewish Civilization?

The Kingdom of Israel in ancient times, and modern Israel today.

Jewish culture: Jewish food, Jewish music, Jewish religion. Jewish everything makes the Jewish/Hebrew civilization.

Please dont mention modern day Israel thats not a civiliztion, I need info on older stuff, I want to do some reasearch on it. Facts not stuff like food and music lol.

[abu afak]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Please dont mention modern day Israel thats not a civiliztion, I need info on older stuff, I want to do some reasearch on it. Facts not stuff like food and music lol.

Another stupid attempt by Ilya to make a point, but as 'I am David' points out, there was only ancient and modern Isreal that wre 'civilizations'.. Tho Jews were part of a great European one until about 1930.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by abu afak
Another stupid attempt by Ilya to make a point, but as 'I am David' points out, there was only ancient and modern Isreal that wre 'civilizations'.. Tho Jews were part of a great European one until about 1930.

Its not a stupid attempt, I am seriouly trying to learn, why must you get so offended, serioulsy if you have links or "facts" cause you lead me to them, like you mentioned the Great European One, can I get some links or info on them?

[I am David]

Modern day Israel not a civilization? What? Of course it is!

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by I am David
Modern day Israel not a civilization? What? Of course it is!

Your rite, but I need info on the old civilization.

All states are basically a civilization in modern times, even dicatorships like saudi, and pakistan can be callled a civlization.

I need info on the old one.

[abu afak]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Your rite, but I need info on the old civilization.

All states are basically a civilization in modern times, even dicatorships like saudi, and pakistan can be callled a civlization.

I need info on the old one.

Ilya GO LOOK!

You show a complete inability/willingness to do any research on any of your posts.

You want me or someone else to quote a historian and have Ilya say "Oh Him he's pro-Zionist, I don't buy it"

Get lost

[abu afak]

Originally posted by abu afak
Ilya GO LOOK!

You show a complete inability/UNwillingness to do any research on any of your posts.

You want me or someone else to quote a historian and have Ilya say "Oh Him he's pro-Zionist, I don't buy it"

Get lost

[IlyaFurman]

Thanks Abu for giving me "facts" for a people I want to learn about!

[abu afak]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Thanks Abu for giving me "facts" for a people I want to learn about!

Ilya, Again... GO LOOK!

You show a complete inability/UNwillingness to do any research on any of your posts.

You want me or someone else to quote a historian and have Ilya say "Oh Him he's pro-Zionist, I don't buy it"

Get lost

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by abu afak
Ilya, Again... GO LOOK!

You show a complete inability/UNwillingness to do any research on any of your posts.

You want me or someone else to quote a historian and have Ilya say "Oh Him he's pro-Zionist, I don't buy it"

Get lost

I did look, coundt find any, thats why I asked for help.

[abu afak]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
I did look, coundt find any, thats why I asked for help.

Aside from the 2 mentioned and the Jews being part of the mini-European one until about 1930 ..... good luck

[I am David]

Yeah, besides the Kindgdom of Israel and Modern Israel, as well as Europe, you aren't going to find too many more Jewish civilizations out there.

[Israel98]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
I did look, coundt find any, thats why I asked for help.

Ilya, not sure what your intention is, but if you type in "Jewish Civilization" into the Google search engine you will get 184,000 web sites with information. That should be enough to get you started in your quest to study this subject.

[Mediocrates]

Whenever someone does it seems to quickly degenerate into a cryptoantisemitic 'dispute' of the facts.

[Micah]

The Torah tells quite abit about Ancient Israel.

[jcsd]

Ok, from a purely secular point of view the ancient empire of Israel probably does not deserve the epitaph 'great' as it was a fairly average empire in the ancient fertile crescent, though it desrves strong credit for the written form of Hebrew. However from a religious point of view it is clearly the singularly most important civilization of the time and was probably the first to develop monothesim. The writing down of the earlier oral traditions in the Torah is also very important from a historical perspective as it is one of the most complete documents from this time and includes several stories that far pre-date early Judaism.

The achievments of the secular Jews in 18th and 19th century Europe are also well-documented.

It is stupid and futile to engage in revisionist attacks on either Islam or Judaism.

[I am David]

The Kingdom of Israel certainly was great for all practical intents and purposes.

The Hebrew kingdom was literally founded on that of another already well established and powerfull kingdom, so the Hebrews needed to first vanquish the inhabitents and then rebuild from complete scrach an entire empire with an effecient government, powerfull army, adminstrative cities, public buildings, etc. This certainly is great, as all other civilizations had been living on their land for thousands of years back and had an already established kingdom whereas the Hebrews needed to conquer the land, and THEN start from square one.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Israel98
Ilya, not sure what your intention is, but if you type in "Jewish Civilization" into the Google search engine you will get 184,000 web sites with information. That should be enough to get you started in your quest to study this subject.

I want to write an article about it on my friends site, he asked me to look into jewish history, the link to the site is below, I typed in things I got info but not the "good" info I am looking for.

Any help would be helpful.

[elke]

Ilya, MidEastWeb has a good brief history section, among other really good things. Here is the address:
http://www.mideastweb.org/palmaps.htm

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by elke
Ilya, MidEastWeb has a good brief history section, among other really good things. Here is the address:
http://www.mideastweb.org/palmaps.htm thanks

[Ezra]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
CAN SOMEONE PASTE OR TYPE SOME INFO ON JEWISH "CIVILIZATION"

Thanks

It's so funny how each time a Muslim is attacked through his Koraan, Islam, Muhammad, or civilization, he says "How about yours, Jews or Christians".
They can never defend their religion or culture without attacking others. This shows how fragile their logic is.

Ok, Mr. Ily, I can tell you a very small thing. I'm a Christian, but :

1) I feel very safe in the Jewish neighborhood I live in.
2) I was supervised twice in my graduate studies by two incredibly brilliant Jewish professors.
3) I can easily tell the difference between the achievements that Jewish culture gave the world, and the blood and killing that Islamic culture gave the world.

Do you still need more civilization?

(P.S. If you want to relate every monument to its builders, then the Giza Pyramids is one of the brilliant Jewish civilization marks. )

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
It's so funny how each time a Muslim is attacked through his Koraan, Islam, Muhammad, or civilization, he says "How about yours, Jews or Christians".
They can never defend their religion or culture without attacking others. This shows how fragile their logic is.

Ok, Mr. Ily, I can tell you a very small thing. I'm a Christian, but :

1) I feel very safe in the Jewish neighborhood I live in.
2) I was supervised twice in my graduate studies by two incredibly brilliant Jewish professors.
3) I can easily tell the difference between the achievements that Jewish culture gave the world, and the blood and killing that Islamic culture gave the world.

Do you still need more civilization?

(P.S. If you want to relate every monument to its builders, then the Giza Pyramids is one of the brilliant Jewish civilization marks. )

Ezra, I was born to othordox jewish parents, they moved to the Albania after the holocaust occurences, and we lived with a albanian muslim family who treated us well for about 3 years then we came to the US and weaned away from our religion, I really dont know much about my birth religion, But I do contribute. funny you call me muslim, I dont care, I like muslims, I dont like "fake chrisitans"

I wanted info on the jewish civilization to put on my friends and my site, cause he told me to do reasearch to do an article on it, go visit it, the addy is on my sig, dont get mad though its christian unfriendly.

And I found a good site on Ancient Israel's polictic policies and advances

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/politics.htm

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by I am David
The Kingdom of Israel certainly was great for all practical intents and purposes.

The Hebrew kingdom was literally founded on that of another already well established and powerfull kingdom, so the Hebrews needed to first vanquish the inhabitents and then rebuild from complete scrach an entire empire with an effecient government, powerfull army, adminstrative cities, public buildings, etc. This certainly is great, as all other civilizations had been living on their land for thousands of years back and had an already established kingdom whereas the Hebrews needed to conquer the land, and THEN start from square one.

If you are "David" then I am Bill Gates.

What made ancient Israel great was that it was built on laws derived from an infinitely good, higher authority.

But even if ancient Israel was not a great civilization, it can be said that world jewry played a disproportionately positive role in the development of human civilization. Jews have made extensive contributions in law, medicine, commerce, science, and literature.

Modern Israel is, in fact, a great civilization. If anyone doubts that, consider this: Israel's high tech sector is more of a force than the high tech sector of all Arab countries combined. Tiny Israel has space launch capability, has made numerous contributions to telecommunications and computing, and is also a player in biotech and energy.

Modern Israel has defeated vastly larger armies multiple times over the past 55 years. Though the victim of the most profound evil -- genocidal terror attacks against women, children, and elderly and a non-stop Big Lie campaign -- Israel perseveres.

1,000 years from now, today's Arab world will be known as the source of a wave of mass murder terror attacks. Israel will be known as the tiny country that took the brunt of such attacks and courageously stood its ground.

[IlyaFurman]

ibrodsky, I didnt mean that modern Israel is not a great civilization, but I didnt suppose that governments that have been in existence for about 50 years can be a civilization, I guess I was wrong, your last paragraph is correct, that is how Israel will be viewed in the future.

[Ezra]

Ezra, I was born to othordox jewish parents, they moved to the Albania after the holocaust occurences, and we lived with a albanian muslim family who treated us well for about 3 years then we came to the US and weaned away from our religion,

Oh yeh sure sure. Very touching story! Oh my God, my tears.. We really believe you!

I really dont know much about my birth religion, But I do contribute. funny you call me muslim, I dont care, I like muslims, I dont like "fake chrisitans"

Why are you that ashamed? Believe me claiming that you are not Muslim but someone who understood the light and beauty of islam, and all this bla bla bla will not make any difference! I, however, have an Islamic web site that loves these stories!

I wanted info on the jewish civilization to put on my friends and my site, cause he told me to do reasearch to do an article on it, go visit it, the addy is on my sig, dont get mad though its christian unfriendly.

Oh yeh sure sure.
I'm really sooooooo surprised about how idiots do you think we are!

If so, why did you changed the question in the first message in this thread? Why did this issue appeared immediately after discussing the Islamic civilization?

Ily, give us a break! Let me say for the last time in capital letters: WE ARE NOT IDIOTS!

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by Ezra
Oh yeh sure sure. Very touching story! Oh my God, my tears.. We really believe you!



Why are you that ashamed? Believe me claiming that you are not Muslim but someone who understood the light and beauty of islam, and all this bla bla bla will not make any difference! I, however, have an Islamic web site that loves these stories!



Belive me or not, I really dont care, call me a muslim sympatheizer, call me a muslim extremist, call me a jew that is "ashamed" of his religion, call me a unknowledgable jew, it really doesnt matter to me, this is just a board, and I am here to gain knowledge, not to attack people.

Im not ashamed, I really never had a chance to learn about my religion, and am learning now, I never said I saw the light of Islam, im not muslim and never have the intention of being so, I just said that I have studied the koran, and yes there are militant verses in there, but most of it is peace.

I hate the fact that normal jewish people act like idiot muslims and idiot extremists cause they want to be as "bad" as them, we dont have to sink to extremist levels, we can have a good argument without sinking into bashing others, like you love to do.

We are not a type of people that spew hate speech cause we know how it is to be in that situation, and I really dont like the road the jewish world is taking, belive it or not, Ibelive we are also becoming miliant, maybe its cause we are attacked by terror and hate everyday, but I see it happening, the jewish people are turning more and more angry and miliatant. And not militant in the way of killing or taking lives, but our mental state.

I only hope, people that spew hate from every religion and race will dislove so that the normal peace loving people can live.

Thank heaven for people like elke and Israel98 who actually helped me in my quest to learn more about Jewish history and Ancient Israel and its contribution, not a lot has been written on this issue and this times but I want to do more research and more reading into this history. And yes the thread " What Great arab civilazation??" encouraged me to make this thread Cause I wanted to know about "Ancient Israel" civilzation and its people, sorry for wanting to learn about my history.

And thats good to know your christian, are you also on a secret mission to suck up to the jewish people and make them believe that jesus is the messiah?? This has been happening alot in the contentinal USA, and now it has also struck Israel, I hope your intention is not to be friends with jews and turn them to jesus, follow your beliefs and dont attack or impose your beliefs on others.

And thanks for your help. And I know most of the people on this board are not idiots, thanks for putting it in capital letter just in case if forget.

[I am David]

If you are "David" then I am Bill Gates.

Why are you attacking me when I am on your side?

The point I was trying to make with ancient Israel is that although the kingdom was not as spectacular as others, it did make a very powerfull, organized and developed empire in a much more difficult scenario then faced that of Rome and Egypt lets say.

[simont]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Ezra, I was born to othordox jewish parents, they moved to the Albania after the holocaust occurences, and we lived with a albanian muslim family who treated us well for about 3 years then we came to the US and weaned away from our religion, I really dont know much about my birth religion

I'm sympathetic. Most Jews today don't know anything about their birth religion. If you want a number of historical topics on Jewish history addressed, you can checkout this site:
http://www.aish.com/search/aish_search.asp?SearchString=history&Action=Go

I'm not sure what you're trying to sum up as Jewish civilization. If you compare some of the culture/dress/food of diaspora Jews you won't find one all-encompassing definition of Jewish civilization. What defines Jews, ultimately, is Judaism and the Torah. So if you're looking to understand Jewish civilization, that's what you ought to investigate.

[elke]

I guess, what we really need is a definition of a "civilization". If we define it as amount of land under control and military prowess - then the Jewish civilization is nothing to shout about, and never was. If we define it as a dress code, food, language, and buildings - then the Jewish one is very fractured and relatively minor, although there were a couple of Kings who were quite the builders, King Herod the Idumean among them.

However, the fact of the matter is that the greatness of the Jewish civilization is in its universality: after all, ultimately, it has had the largest effect on the world as we know it today. It is the backbone of the Western civilization, as well as that of the Muslim world's - no matter how much they may deny it.

We often hear the argument that the Monotheism was not the invention of the Jews, that Akhnaton IV was really the inventor of it with his Sun god. However, there is a world of difference between what Akhnaton IV believed and the tenets of Judaism: the Sun god was not abstract, unseeable, unknowable - it was the Sun - a concrete object, in concrete space. Such a deity could not possibly survive in a scientifically advanced environment, and would easily be debunked in today's world. Such a basis for a societal set of laws would disintegrate with little prodding.

Judaism has given the world a G-d that allows for scientific questioning. It gives flexibility to the human mind, if only we take it - as we do! Judaism defines good and evil in the world today, everywhere, - and that's an accomplishment certainly to be proud of!

[Mediocrates]

I was watching a presentation by a the author of a new translation of the Meditations of Marcus Aurelieus, which I have a few different copies of and he was talking about the foundations of Stocism as a philiosophy and a religion and it occured to me that one of the contributions of Judaism is so obvious as to be missed. Previously religion was focused on ritual. People did not look to religion for 'spiritual' answers to metaphysical questions; why are we here, what is our role, what is a good life, what is after. Those were the realm such as it were, of philosophy. What Judaism did and what the Greeks amplified, was to move those questions to the realm of religion and make religion take a central role in both metaphysics and, for the Jews, ethics. Judaism represents the first fusion of spirituality with ethics. Previously religion was about fear; fear of drought or famine or war or infertility. After Judaism religion is about transcendent questions of humanity.

[I am David]

Jewish culture, food, music, language, religion, building is very distinct. It may have different parts to it, but that doesn't stop it from being unique and Jewish. Jewish music, folk music, yiddish, Israeli, Sephardic, etc., all are not scattered, but simply different developments of Jewish culture. The same with food, and architecture, all have different areas of differences, but it is all atributed to Jewish creation, with influence in some cases from their surroundings. And I hope no one means to say that the Jewish religion and language are not unique or are scattered.

[simont]

Originally posted by elke
I guess, what we really need is a definition of a "civilization". If we define it as amount of land under control and military prowess - then the Jewish civilization is nothing to shout about, and never was. If we define it as a dress code, food, language, and buildings - then the Jewish one is very fractured and relatively minor, although there were a couple of Kings who were quite the builders, King Herod the Idumean among them.

However, the fact of the matter is that the greatness of the Jewish civilization is in its universality: after all, ultimately, it has had the largest effect on the world as we know it today. It is the backbone of the Western civilization, as well as that of the Muslim world's - no matter how much they may deny it.

We often hear the argument that the Monotheism was not the invention of the Jews, that Akhnaton IV was really the inventor of it with his Sun god. However, there is a world of difference between what Akhnaton IV believed and the tenets of Judaism: the Sun god was not abstract, unseeable, unknowable - it was the Sun - a concrete object, in concrete space. Such a deity could not possibly survive in a scientifically advanced environment, and would easily be debunked in today's world. Such a basis for a societal set of laws would disintegrate with little prodding.

That there is one infinite God is only the first step. What really makes Judaism unique is that it dictates a set of laws that God expects all Jews (as well as laws for non-Jews) to follow.


Judaism has given the world a G-d that allows for scientific questioning. It gives flexibility to the human mind, if only we take it - as we do! Judaism defines good and evil in the world today, everywhere, - and that's an accomplishment certainly to be proud of!
Well, hang on just one second. From a purely secular view, I suppose you're right. However Judaism (namely Torah) was given to the Jews by God, and so Jews shouldn't be proud of Judaism, but rather they should be proud that God gave it to them, no?

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by simont
I'm sympathetic. Most Jews today don't know anything about their birth religion. If you want a number of historical topics on Jewish history addressed, you can checkout this site:
http://www.aish.com/search/aish_search.asp?SearchString=history&Action=Go

I'm not sure what you're trying to sum up as Jewish civilization. If you compare some of the culture/dress/food of diaspora Jews you won't find one all-encompassing definition of Jewish civilization. What defines Jews, ultimately, is Judaism and the Torah. So if you're looking to understand Jewish civilization, that's what you ought to investigate.

Ok that link was PERFECT, exaclty what I was looking for thanks.

I basically wanted to know how they lived their lives, the equipment the used the houses they lived in, their interactions with each other, basically everyday life and their great civilization. I will look into the torah more.

Thanks for the link, Ill be on there for a while.

[elke]

Originally posted by simont
That there is one infinite God is only the first step. What really makes Judaism unique is that it dictates a set of laws that God expects all Jews (as well as laws for non-Jews) to follow.

Yes, as you and Mediocrates have pointed out, it's the fusion of the spirituality and ethics that underlies the Jewish worldview, which is the major contribution Jews and Judaism have made to the humanity. In a very real sense, Judaism has contributed the concept of internal morality, of conscience, to the store of human knowledge, which in turn had a very civilizing effect on human beings.

Well, hang on just one second. From a purely secular view, I suppose you're right. However Judaism (namely Torah) was given to the Jews by God, and so Jews shouldn't be proud of Judaism, but rather they should be proud that God gave it to them, no?

If it makes you happy, - sure! :) The crux of the matter is that whether or not one believes that the Torah was divinely inspired, the effect is still the same: human beings now have a set of good rules by which to conduct our lives. Whether we ever achieve perfection in following these rules is another matter, but we have a standard by which to measure our behavior - and this standard is inside of us and independent of any ruler, any outside influence.

[elke]

Originally posted by I am David
Jewish culture, food, music, language, religion, building is very distinct. It may have different parts to it, but that doesn't stop it from being unique and Jewish. Jewish music, folk music, yiddish, Israeli, Sephardic, etc., all are not scattered, but simply different developments of Jewish culture. The same with food, and architecture, all have different areas of differences, but it is all atributed to Jewish creation, with influence in some cases from their surroundings. And I hope no one means to say that the Jewish religion and language are not unique or are scattered.

Of course it's unique - that's what defines it as 'culture'. We were talking about "civilizations" though, and that's a larger concept that "culture". The dress, food, etc. are important, but they are...symptoms, should I say? "Civilization", IMO, refers to the lasting influence on general society, on a large scale.

[MisterK]

First post. Please be gentle. :)

(As if! We're talking about the Mideast here!) ;)

Descriptions of Jewish civilization/culture in the last 2,000-odd years have often included words such as "fractured" and "fragmented", suggesting that the Jewish nation consists of different groups with seemingly little in common besides religion (which PLO propoganda will twist to mean that there is no such thing as a Jewish nation.) But I can think of a couple of things that unite most, if not all, Jews world over.

One essential component is language. Language you say? You betcha! Sure the day-to-day usage of the modern Hebrew language is only in Israel and by Israelis, and only for the last 80-odd years, but even for those of us in the Diaspora, the influence of the language throughout our history is incalculable.

First there's the fact that the Jews of both the Muslim and Christian worlds have always had their own languages, making them distinct communities. Futhermore, the two most important Jewish diaspora languages, Yiddish and Ladino, both use (or used) Hebrew characters, and had considerable influence from Hebrew and other Semitic languages such as Aramaic (though neither language is strictly related to Hebrew, for thgat you'd have to go to Judeo-Arabic.) This insured that most educated Jews could at least read Hebrew, and the diaspora langauages not our own, even if we couldn't understand them, just as an English speaker can read Spanish even if he cannot understand it. It also meant that Jewish identity, tied the Hebrew language, was a component of something as basic as our speech.

Modern Hebrew is a second language to me that I struggle with, but even as a fourth generation American Ashkenazi Jew, there are Yiddishized Hebrew words that are as comfortable to my everyday usage as my mother's chicken soup. I feel nakhas for my daughter and her beautiful punim even as my job gives me tzorus. A thief to me is a ganav. And when I stuff my face with pretzels and candy, I refer to it as khazzerai.

Another thing we share is a sense of common experience. When my mother taught me Jewish history, she never used the words "they" to refer to the ancient or modern Jews. It was always "we". It may sound superficial, but it is a common habit among Jews, and the usage has a powerful influence. The plight of Jews as far away as Iraq matters to me almost as much as those in Brooklyn and Queens. And Jews from Bayside to Baghdad center their Jewish identity on Israel, even those who have never been there (I myself spent a year in Israel.) It's always been that way for us. We're one nation even when we're spread out accross the world.

So those things, together with music, dance, and arts make us a "culture". Now what have we contributed to the world as a civilization? The replies I've read above describe mainly religious contributions, and for the most part that is our major contribution. The gift of monotheism is a powerful influence on the world. For one thing, since the object of worship is non-physical, the religion and its monotheistic decendants have been able to survive (to varying degrees) even with the scientific culture of modernism.

Some of our contributions range beyond spritualiy. The Talmud is a religious document, but it is also a legal one. Influenced by the intelectualism and democracy of Helenic culture (in ways Islamic culture would be a few centuries later), it translated religious commandments to a comprehensive, workable, civil law. It helped to create a religious and social fabric that was based on laws, not people. It is a major influence on the United States Constitution, which in turn serves as an influence on all modern democratic structures of the world.

We've made completely secular contributions too. The Yiddish Kleizmir music is a considerable, if often overlooked, influence on American Jazz music. Our focus on learning has also meant some major contributions to the world of science, one of them being none less than Albert Einstein himself. It might not seem significant that a certain historical figure was Jewish, especially if he or she operated from the diaspora. But while for some figures Jewish identity was merely a footnote, for Einstein it was a major part of his being. He was a passionate Jew, and Zionist for that matter.

So, in short, we're a civilization, even if we're a varied, Nomadic civilization (who says we don't belong in the Mideast!) And we have much to be proud of.

---Andrew

[jcsd]

I don't think you could class modern day Israel and/or the Jewish diaspora as a civilization in it's own right as that suggests a larger degree of separation from the western world than actually exists, though I suppose in many ways you could agrue subjectively that there are very few different civilizations in the world today due to the massive osmosis of ideas.

[MisterK]

Originally posted by jcsd
I don't think you could class modern day Israel and/or the Jewish diaspora as a civilization in it's own right as that suggests a larger degree of separation from the western world than actually exists, though I suppose in many ways you could agrue subjectively that there are very few different civilizations in the world today due to the massive osmosis of ideas.

True, Jews in the Western world are quite westernized, not least myself. And Jews of the Moslem world are influenced by that civilzation too. In America, the Jewish "civilization" that exist(ed) in its own right is rapidly fading away. Outside the Haredi communities there are few who speak Yiddish. But in the days of the Shtetl Jews were, to varying degrees, often quite seperate from the European countries they lived in.

I would say that Israel IS a distinct culture, and as much of a "civilzation" as all the Jews together could possibly have so soon after two milenia of diaspora. It is a crazy quilt of cultures to be sure, and the mix of Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi, and African Jews is not always comfortable. But they manage, and have enough in common that the country works, very well.

Israel also suffers (and yet bennefits from) identity crises of its own. Though many assume it is an "Occidental" island surrounded by "Oriental" countries, and in some ways it is, this is far from the whole story. Though Ashkenazim form the power elite, the Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews are in fact the largest part of Israel's Jewish population. And if Ashkenazi Jews shaped the county's institutional frameworks, and still chart the course of the nation-state, it was the Jews who had never left the Mideast who gave the country it's most distinctive flavor. Israeli food is felafel and humus before it is chicken soup or borscht. It is their Hebrew that is considered the most definitive. Israel's vendor-filled streets and markets are often only partially removed from the bazzars of the Muslim world. Israel's secular-vs-religious conflicts are often strikingly similar to those in neighboring countries. And even we Ashkenazi Jews exhibit a tribalism that is not so far removed from the Arab cultures. In some ways, the "mideast" never quite left us.

An entire "civilization" on its own? Depends on how you define the word. But if its not its own civilization, it is not so clear-cut which civilization Israel belongs to.

---Andrew

[jcsd]

Israel and the wider Jewish world population certainly have their own culture, but I think that culture and civilization are different things. For example I would say that the British people throughout history have never really existed as their own civilization but have always been part of different larger civilizations, i.e. Celts, Romans, Germanic/Viking, French, European, Western

[elke]

Yes, I am with you on this one, JCSD. It seems to me that "civilization" is a concept larger than that of "culture". However, I do think that there is a "Jewish civilization", which has been incorporated into the Western one, and in fact forms the framework of it.

Hey, MisterK, to me "Hozzerei land" is Russia! That's what my great-grandmother used to call it! ;) :D

Also, not to diminish the importance of Talmudic laws or Klezmer music to the world, but it's still more of "piecemeal" contributions... I am not sure how to really express what I mean... these weren't fundamental to the society in the same way as the concept of conscience and monotheism were.

[danholo]

Originally posted by simont
I'm sympathetic. Most Jews today don't know anything about their birth religion. If you want a number of historical topics on Jewish history addressed, you can checkout this site:
http://www.aish.com/search/aish_search.asp?SearchString=history&Action=Go

I'm not sure what you're trying to sum up as Jewish civilization. If you compare some of the culture/dress/food of diaspora Jews you won't find one all-encompassing definition of Jewish civilization. What defines Jews, ultimately, is Judaism and the Torah. So if you're looking to understand Jewish civilization, that's what you ought to investigate.

This site, like Ilya said, is perfect. I read this a while back in the spring and it really started my interest in Judaism, Israel and the likes... I read the whole history by Ken Spiro in two days (I even skipped school!).

Every Jew should read this, it is directly written for us, spiritual and religious ideas included. Simply fantastic. Makes your Jewish identity and belief in Torah even stronger. At least for me it did.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by simont
Well, hang on just one second. From a purely secular view, I suppose you're right. However Judaism (namely Torah) was given to the Jews by God, and so Jews shouldn't be proud of Judaism, but rather they should be proud that God gave it to them, no?


In Talmud, God actually offered Torah to several other 'cultures' first. They all turned Him down. The Jews welcomed it. This is really the heart of the word "Chosen" in one sense. Chosen like a husband or wife or adopted child is chosen, with love.

[abu afak]

THE BEGINNING OF A GREAT JEWISH CIVILIZATION
(before most here would think)
(and with some other great history, including early Violence against Jews, Yes BEFORE Zionism)



"The First Hebrew Book Printed in Jerusalem

AZULAI, Hayyim Yosef David. Sefer Avodat Hakodesh. Jerusalem: Israel Bak, 1841. Two title pages, [5], 222pp. Five-line manuscript inscription on front pastedown. Original tree calf. Fine copy. Modern 1/2 morocco burgundy case.
$ 6500
THE FIRST BOOK PRINTED IN JERUSALEM BY THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK. Published in Jerusalem in 1841, Avodat HaKodesh was the first Hebrew book ever published in the Holy City. This volume was published by Rabbi Israel Bak, ten years after coming to settle in the Holy Land. Bak originally made his home in Safed, in the upper Galilee. There he established a publishing house and published a number of books. In 1834, local Safed Arabs revolted against the governor, Habaashe, of Egypt. During the uprising, Safed was attacked and all of the Jews were robbed. Rabbi Bak's home and the publishing house were destroyed. The Jewish community was saved by a large military contingent sent from Egypt. The Jewish community was only beginning to recover, when in 1837, an earthquake leveled the cities of Tiberias and Safed, killing several thousand people. What little remained was taken from the Jewish community by force, a few years later, when the local population rebelled against the Egyptian regime a second time. In response to the destruction and the plundering, Bak traveled to Alexandria to entreat the governor to intercede. While Bak was in Alexandria, word of the blood libel being directed against the Jews in Damascus reached the Egyptian capital. Bak took it upon himself to collect letters from a good number of Jewish communities, describing what was taking place. He sent them directly to Sir Moses Montefiore in London. As a result of his actions, Montefiore came to Alexandria, personally, to offer political and financial assistance to the beleaguered Jewish community. Being embroiled in an escalating conflict with Constantinople, Habaashe would not see him and the mission ended in failure, forcing Bak to return to Safed with nothing. Unable to return home to Safed, Bak spent three months in Jerusalem, where with the aid and encouragement of Daniel Alkalai, he sought and received the endorsement of both the Sefardic and Ashkenazic leadership to establish the first Hebrew press in the Holy City. The financial backing for the project came from Hayyim Abraham Gagin and Benjamin Mordechai Navon. The first work chosen to inaugurate the landmark publishing house was Avodat HaKodesh. Until 1863, the Bak Press was the only Hebrew press in Jerusalem, printing over 130 books within a 22-year period.
The work, Avodat HaKodesh, by the famous scholar and mystic, Rabbi Hayyim Yosef David Azulai, is a compilation of seven treatises, formatted together into a complete, integrated work. The stated purpose is to make the material more comprehensible to the reader and more usable. The collected works include Moreh BeEtzba, Tziporen Shamir, Kesher Gudal, Kaf Achat, Yosef BeSeder, Sansan LeYair, and Shomer Yisrael. According to Bak, these interrelated works focus on moral teachings, ethical principles and meditations for individual instruction, contemplation and consistent practice.

At the time of printing of Avodat HaKodesh, the Jewish population of Jerusalem numbered approximately 5000 souls, the overall population being about 11,000 inhabitants. Palestine at beginning of the 19th century was but a derelict province of the decaying Ottoman Empire. The economy was primitive, its population sparse, its standards low. It was not a place of thriving culture and learning, of excitement and opportunity as it had been in ancient world or as it has become in the 20th century. It was not until the 1840's that physical changes began to take place in the Holy Land, that development occurred—geographical exploration, transportation, postal services, buildings. It is for this reason that no books were printed in Jerusalem pre-1841, while for three centuries books poured out of the other world centers of printing. Jerusalem remained backwards, undeveloped, and no printing press. The Hebrew printing press established by Rabbi Israel Bak serves as a symbol of the rebirth of the Holy City. Avodat Hakodesh, then, in addition to being the first book printed in Jerusalem, also symbolizes the renaissance of Jewish life in the Holy City in modern times."

www.historicana.com/judaica/zion.html

[IlyaFurman]

Very Nice, lot of info on this thread.

[abu afak]

For those who missed it (it was covered Needlessly by another poster, whose posts you probably don't want to see)

THE BEGINNING OF A GREAT JEWISH CIVILIZATION
(before most here would think)
(and with some other great history, including early Violence against Jews, Yes BEFORE Zionism)


"The First Hebrew Book Printed in Jerusalem

AZULAI, Hayyim Yosef David. Sefer Avodat Hakodesh. Jerusalem: Israel Bak, 1841. Two title pages, [5], 222pp. Five-line manuscript inscription on front pastedown. Original tree calf. Fine copy. Modern 1/2 morocco burgundy case.
$ 6500
THE FIRST BOOK PRINTED IN JERUSALEM BY THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK. Published in Jerusalem in 1841, Avodat HaKodesh was the first Hebrew book ever published in the Holy City. This volume was published by Rabbi Israel Bak, ten years after coming to settle in the Holy Land. Bak originally made his home in Safed, in the upper Galilee. There he established a publishing house and published a number of books. In 1834, local Safed Arabs revolted against the governor, Habaashe, of Egypt. During the uprising, Safed was attacked and all of the Jews were robbed. Rabbi Bak's home and the publishing house were destroyed. The Jewish community was saved by a large military contingent sent from Egypt. The Jewish community was only beginning to recover, when in 1837, an earthquake leveled the cities of Tiberias and Safed, killing several thousand people. What little remained was taken from the Jewish community by force, a few years later, when the local population rebelled against the Egyptian regime a second time. In response to the destruction and the plundering, Bak traveled to Alexandria to entreat the governor to intercede. While Bak was in Alexandria, word of the blood libel being directed against the Jews in Damascus reached the Egyptian capital. Bak took it upon himself to collect letters from a good number of Jewish communities, describing what was taking place. He sent them directly to Sir Moses Montefiore in London. As a result of his actions, Montefiore came to Alexandria, personally, to offer political and financial assistance to the beleaguered Jewish community. Being embroiled in an escalating conflict with Constantinople, Habaashe would not see him and the mission ended in failure, forcing Bak to return to Safed with nothing. Unable to return home to Safed, Bak spent three months in Jerusalem, where with the aid and encouragement of Daniel Alkalai, he sought and received the endorsement of both the Sefardic and Ashkenazic leadership to establish the first Hebrew press in the Holy City. The financial backing for the project came from Hayyim Abraham Gagin and Benjamin Mordechai Navon. The first work chosen to inaugurate the landmark publishing house was Avodat HaKodesh. Until 1863, the Bak Press was the only Hebrew press in Jerusalem, printing over 130 books within a 22-year period.
The work, Avodat HaKodesh, by the famous scholar and mystic, Rabbi Hayyim Yosef David Azulai, is a compilation of seven treatises, formatted together into a complete, integrated work. The stated purpose is to make the material more comprehensible to the reader and more usable. The collected works include Moreh BeEtzba, Tziporen Shamir, Kesher Gudal, Kaf Achat, Yosef BeSeder, Sansan LeYair, and Shomer Yisrael. According to Bak, these interrelated works focus on moral teachings, ethical principles and meditations for individual instruction, contemplation and consistent practice.

At the time of printing of Avodat HaKodesh, the Jewish population of Jerusalem numbered approximately 5000 souls, the overall population being about 11,000 inhabitants. Palestine at beginning of the 19th century was but a derelict province of the decaying Ottoman Empire. The economy was primitive, its population sparse, its standards low. It was not a place of thriving culture and learning, of excitement and opportunity as it had been in ancient world or as it has become in the 20th century. It was not until the 1840's that physical changes began to take place in the Holy Land, that development occurred—geographical exploration, transportation, postal services, buildings. It is for this reason that no books were printed in Jerusalem pre-1841, while for three centuries books poured out of the other world centers of printing. Jerusalem remained backwards, undeveloped, and no printing press. The Hebrew printing press established by Rabbi Israel Bak serves as a symbol of the rebirth of the Holy City. Avodat Hakodesh, then, in addition to being the first book printed in Jerusalem, also symbolizes the renaissance of Jewish life in the Holy City in modern times."

www.historicana.com/judaica/zion.html