Was Samson a terrorist?

[IlyaFurman]

I thread was inspired from one of abu afaks links, it talks about the story of samson, he is almost a suicide bomber if you think about it.

"Samson said to the servant who held his hand, "Put me where I can feel the pillars that support the temple, so that I may lean against them." Now the temple was crowded with men and women; all the rulers of the Philistines were there, and on the roof were about three thousand men and women watching Samson perform. Then Samson prayed to the LORD, "O Sovereign LORD , remember me. O God, please strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes." Then Samson reached toward the two central pillars on which the temple stood. Bracing himself against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other, Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived. (Judges 16:26-30)"


Samsom as Terrorist


Reading the story of Samson for myself was a shock. I wanted to tell the story to my daughter orally, as it was originally told, instead of reading it out of a "Bible story" book. To get the story right, I opened the Bible and read about Samson.

To the Hebrews, Samson was a folk hero, someone who killed many, many Philistines. But that's really all there is to it. He killed a lot of people, most of them civilians, whose crime was that they were Philistines. His most famous story is how he killed all these soldiers with nothing but an ass's jawbone. Christians (and maybe Jews, I don't know) like telling that story because it portrays Samson killing soldiers, but he starts his career by killing a bunch of Philistines just to make a point.

Here's how his first act of terror goes. Samsom marries a Philistine. Then he challenges thirty Philistines with a riddle, betting them "thirty sheets and thirty change of garments" that they can't solve it. When they solve the riddle, Samson knows his wife has betrayed him, giving them the answer. To get the sheets and garments, he kills a bunch of Philistines:

"And the Spirit of Yahweh came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments to those who had expounded the riddle."

That's just the start. His story is a series of massacres. He torches fields, massacres Philistines, kills a thousand with the jawbone of an ass. He dallies with a harlot in Gaza, and
then falls in love with Delilah. He's captured, but eventually he pulls the temple down around him, killing three thousand people:

"So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life."

This guy isn't a hero by modern standards. He's a terrorist.

http://home.attbi.com/~jontweet/jotsamsonterrori.html
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What are your opinions on this?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
This guy isn't a hero by modern standards. He's a terrorist...
What are your opinions on this?

It would be difficult to judge the biblical Sampson in today's terms. But even so, he was tortured and his eyes taken out before being positioned for extra-judicial execution.

If today, for example, even with a proper judicial process, a death row prisoner, at the verge of being executed in the electric chair managed to somehow cause an electric fire and kill the audience at the prison, I don't think that he would be considered a terrorist. Certainly not a hero, but not a terrorist. In fact, many would consider the incident to be poetic justice, I'm sure.

But suicide bombers are a completely different story. They are not being tortured or forcefully blinded, nor are they being lined up for execution. They are simply recruited and trained to mass murder innocent people for no reason other than to murder non-Muslim women and children for the goal of genocide as prescribed by the Q'uran.

One can argue about Sampson being a hero, but there is really no comparison whatsoever between the biblical account of Sampson and today's suicide bombers.

[Mediocrates]

Ilya you should read the text. The source text and you should read it yourself instead of relying on other interpretations.

Samson is a pathetic figure in Judges. Almost all of them are. He is a weak pathetic man driven by vanity and pleasure. He strays from the Mitzvoth, corrupts himself and 'falls in with bad crowd'. There is nothing honorable in either his life or his death. And in his very death, trying to make ammends for his awful life he can't even fulfill God commandments and instead destroys himself, which is shanda.

The story of Samson is a warning not a lullaby.

[simont]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Ilya you should read the text. The source text and you should read it yourself instead of relying on other interpretations.

Samson is a pathetic figure in Judges. Almost all of them are. He is a weak pathetic man driven by vanity and pleasure. He strays from the Mitzvoth, corrupts himself and 'falls in with bad crowd'. There is nothing honorable in either his life or his death. And in his very death, trying to make ammends for his awful life he can't even fulfill God commandments and instead destroys himself, which is shanda.

The story of Samson is a warning not a lullaby.
Um... I'm not sure we'd call this a standard Jewish interpretation? Generally the characters in the Book of Judges are far from "pathetic". In any case, the story is a bit surprising because it can be read (incorrectly, of course) in a way that condones suicide, and encourages immoral behavior. It shouldn't be. I've found this debate on another site, and don't have anything to add. If you want to see why he's not a suicide bomber, go to:
http://members.aol.com/ufppdatum/suicider.htm
At the bottom there's an update (its an email exchange in which someone who initially suspects samson quickly concedes that they're wrong). Should answer most question.

[IlyaFurman]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
But suicide bombers are a completely different story. They are not being tortured or forcefully blinded, nor are they being lined up for execution. They are simply recruited and trained to mass murder innocent people for no reason other than to murder non-Muslim women and children for the goal of genocide as prescribed by the Q'uran.


No way am I comparing suicide bombers to him, but his actions can be questioned, as not very holy.

Do you think the quran calls for genocide against non muslims?

[Mediocrates]

No Simont I'd say my interpretation comes from fairly mainstream American Conservative Judaic Rabbinic interpretation. With the exception of Deborah and Judith (Ok Gideon was ok but his son was a serial killer, and Shmuel was pretty good to usher out the end of the era of Judges) the judges are pretty terrible characters. In fact Judges is fundamentally about the breakdown of society. The crux of the matter for Judges is the failure of the synthesis of a single head of nation who is both the spiritual and civic leader in one person. It takes a special man, also deeply flawed, in David to even understand that failure. In modern day parlance, most of the Judges are tribal warlords.

So when we look at Samson, when we tell it to our children we talk about the brave warrior who brought down the temple of the apikorsim around their heads. But we forget what got him there. In fact his pride and his vanity is so great that after being asked many times by Delilah for the root of his strength, he finally thinks he is above his own destiny and blurts it out thinking he is invulnerable. When he is brought to the temple and chained like an animal the only thing he has left is the strength he always had anyway but didn't know it because just he was physically blinded at the time, he was morally blinded before.

Anyway that's my thoughts on the matter.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by IlyaFurman
Do you think the quran calls for genocide against non muslims?

Sure.

But much more key than what I think, is what the Islamist terrorists themselves believe and act upon.

[simont]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
No Simont I'd say my interpretation comes from fairly mainstream American Conservative Judaic Rabbinic interpretation. With the exception of Deborah and Judith (Ok Gideon was ok but his son was a serial killer, and Shmuel was pretty good to usher out the end of the era of Judges) the judges are pretty terrible characters. In fact Judges is fundamentally about the breakdown of society. The crux of the matter for Judges is the failure of the synthesis of a single head of nation who is both the spiritual and civic leader in one person. It takes a special man, also deeply flawed, in David to even understand that failure. In modern day parlance, most of the Judges are tribal warlords.

So when we look at Samson, when we tell it to our children we talk about the brave warrior who brought down the temple of the apikorsim around their heads. But we forget what got him there. In fact his pride and his vanity is so great that after being asked many times by Delilah for the root of his strength, he finally thinks he is above his own destiny and blurts it out thinking he is invulnerable. When he is brought to the temple and chained like an animal the only thing he has left is the strength he always had anyway but didn't know it because just he was physically blinded at the time, he was morally blinded before.

Anyway that's my thoughts on the matter.
OK...and that's a (relative to the history of Judaism) fairly new interpretation, as far as I'm aware. I suppose instead of "standard" though, I should have used the word "traditional". As of yet I'm an unaffiliated Jew but generally suspect most interpretations of the non-Orthodox Rabbi's, so I'll always present that perspective (as best I know it). Again, you should look at the link I've provided...some details that you haven't mentioned are in the three-email conversation posted there.

[Mediocrates]

simont

I'm fairly sure my Lubavtich Rabbi would say more or less the same thing as I did here. I don't think there is much latitude, realistically in this. What would be your read on this?

sorry I just had to correct that typo

[simont]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
simont

I'm fairly sure by Lubavtich Rabbi would say more or less the same thing as I did here. I don't think there is much latitude, realistically in this. What would be your read on this?
You may be right; I'll ask one next week and let you know. As I understand it, all of the Judges lived at a time when Jew's were not following the Mitzvot and were living sinfully. Since we Jews don't want any of those Jews as an example to us, why would the Rabbi's make sure that we read the stories of a few particularly incredible, but sinful Jews? It don't make no sense. Furthermore, why would they put both a great character like Delilah in the book of Judges as well as Samson...they must have something in common, no?
I believe Samson is considered to be something of a hero because of his steadfast devotion to the Jewish people and God in such a troublesome time. His long hair was not what gave him his strenght, after all, but his status as an especially devoted servent of God. Furthermore, he married a Philistiine only so that he could bring harm to her people--the enemies of Israel. When he was brought to the temple, it is clear that everyone there was planning to kill him, so perhaps (I know there are a number of interpretations in the Talmud) as an act of self defense, he asked God for strength to kill his enemy. He himself died in that act of defense.
Lastly, its interesting to note that he seems to have been punsihed for his transgressions during life. He was blinded and torchered, betrayed, and killed in his last act--one God very clearly played a role in.
I'm in no ways an authority on any of there's probably much more to the story then I'm telling here.

[Jonathan Tweet]

I'm flattered to see my rant quoted here and discussed. For the record, I've gotten the same sort of response from a Christian: that Samson is a bad guy and not a hero.

Here's the current URL for my rant about Samson as Terrorist: http://www.jonathantweet.com/jotrelsamson.html

-Jonathan Tweet

[Mediocrates]

I'm sorry you understand nothing of the religious halachic context of the Torah parshot and Haftorah sections. It's a pity you wasted all that time writing.


BTW let's be honest. Mandela and Gandhi were terrorists too, according to your definitions.

[Jonathan Tweet]

I'm sorry you understand nothing of the religious halachic context of the Torah parshot and Haftorah sections. It's a pity you wasted all that time writing.

Oh, don't feel sorry on my account. I had fun writing it even if it's nothing more mindless drivel.

BTW let's be honest. Mandela and Gandhi were terrorists too, according to your definitions.

OK, for the sake of discussion, I'll grant that Mandela and Gandhi were both terrorists. I say that Samson was a more heinous terrorist than either Mandela or Gandhi. Would you agree?

And, since I don't think I specified, I think that bin Laden is a much worse terrorist that Samson ever was.

-Jonathan

[Floyd]

Is Usama Ibn Laden an american spy? & is he still one?

[Jonathan Tweet]

Is Usama Ibn Laden an american spy? & is he still one?

This conspiracy theory that bin Laden is a US spy gives me hope. If everyone lauded bin Laden as a hero, that would be scary. But if people despise him enough to accuse him of being a US spy, that's good in a weird sort of way.

-Jonathan

[CoinToss]

This conspiracy theory that bin Laden is a US spy gives me hope. If everyone lauded bin Laden as a hero, that would be scary. But if people despise him enough to accuse him of being a US spy, that's good in a weird sort of way.

-Jonathan
Lol, not, that's even more stupid and not less dangerous.
But the stupidity of some muslims and leftists is bottomless...

[Floyd]

This conspiracy theory that bin Laden is a US spy gives me hope. If everyone lauded bin Laden as a hero, that would be scary. But if people despise him enough to accuse him of being a US spy, that's good in a weird sort of way.

-Jonathan

They do not accuse him... It's a well known thing that he was one of the CIA's best agents... they used him to start a war betwen Iraq & Iran, when papa Bush was leading the Earth to the end.

[CoinToss]

They do not accuse him... It's a well known thing that he was one of the CIA's best agents... they used him to start a war betwen Iraq & Iran, when papa Bush was leading the Earth to the end.
Wow, so many secret knowledges. :eek:
Very impressive. Are you a spy by yourself ?
Or maybe Michael Moore is your dedicated special secret agent ?

[Floyd]

Wow, so many secret knowledges. :eek:
Very impressive. Are you a spy by yourself ?
Or maybe Michael Moore is your dedicated special secret agent ?

It's not a secret. Intelectual circuits talk about it in public.