Who's the best?

[I am David]

With the upcoming Israeli elections, I thought it would be interesting to see who everyone here thinks would be the best Prime Minister for Israel.

Personally I think Netanyahu is the best of the three "main" candidates, that is Sharon, Mitzna, and Netanyahu. His view is extremely right, and I like the right. But more importantly, he will take a heavy hand against the Palestinian terrorists, a heaver hand than even Sharon, possibly. I think that activly and offensivly fighting terror instead of only retaliating once it happens is the way to go, that way you have more of a chance of destroying more terror per day than is created, and I believe this is what Netanyahu will do. Am I correct in this assumption? However, Mitzna is pretty much the stark opposite of Netanyahu, not only wanting to activly negotiate with Arafat, but also is leaning towards a possible withdrawel from the territories in the recent future. This may seem to be the wrong thing to do if Palestinian terrorists will not, as expected, stop terrorizing Israel even when it is no longer in the West Bank and Gaza. But what if they will? In this case Mitzna is the best choice, but is it very likely that the Palestinians will stop terror? No.

Posted in Arab-Israeli conflict because it relates directly to Arab-Israeli conflict.

[istt]

Mitzna. He may bring some civility back to the table.

Netanyahu reminds one of the Turkish prison warden in Midnight Express.

Sharon reminds one of the Turkish prison warden (a few years later) in Midnight Express.

[I am David]

Yeah, it depends I'd say. If the Palestinians really are ready to negotiate, Mitzna is the guy, if not Netanyahu is the one. Sharon just seems to indicisiv for me. I don't know that much, but just seems like that.

[victot]

good question. from what i know, i very much like Mitzna's vision, but i think it would be irresponsible for him to withdraw settlers without coming to any kind of understanding with the palestinians... it didn't work in lebanon, i don't know if i trust the idea of israel just leaving like that again...

im VERY afraid of the idea of netenyahu being leader. i don't think i trust the guy.

i dunno what to think of sharon. maybe it's best if he isn't in power anymore, but i don't know who to root for. the only thing i know, is i don't want netenyahu...

[Mil]

The funny thing is the louder/radicalized a PM is the quiter/moderate he is in office.

It doesn't really matter who comes to power Netaniahu, Sharon, or Mitzna peace is not really an Israeli decision anyways.

[MGB8]

Sharon for actions, Netanyahu for "vision"

Israel needs to retrench its position concerning the establishment of "Palestine." The entire idea of land for peace was HIGHLY debated and questioned, and did not have majority support when it was instituted in the Oslo Accords. But hope won the day there. We now know our hope was merely wishful dreaming.

We need to return clarity to this conflict for what it really is - it is not about independence or sovereignty for "Palestinians" but about 1948, 1967, and the Arab desire to see certain lands ONLY in Arab hands.

That is not to say that there aren't real issues about how Israel needs to deal with the West Bank and Gaza.

Israel must have a clear policy towards both.

IMO, the best policy would be announcing the Official Annexation of the West Bank, and an official withdrawal from Gaza, and a recognition of Gaza as foreign national territory.

In terms of the West Bank, Israel should offer the Arabs living there full citizenship IF they are willing to swear on the Qu'ran their loyalty to the idea of Israel as the jewish Homeland, and their support of the nation. If not, they should be allowed to immigrate to Gaza or whereever else they choose, with above-market value being given in return for any land not sold privately.

Also, terrorism, including membership in "political wings" of terrorist groups, needs to be outlawed and punished by Jail (a major player or threat who needs to be contatained) or deportation (a more minor player who is simply supportive of the goal.)

In terms of Gaza, tell the Arab nations that basically "its your problem" BUT that any offensvie military actions from Gaza would be treated as an act of war.

Better yet, find a way to get a international monitoring group to police them, because they have shown that they are not willing to do so themselves.

[I am David]

Offer the Arabs in WB citizenship? Are you INSANE ?
That would mean Israel would cease to be a Jewish state, because of the Arab majority with full voting rights. At that point you could say goodbye to Jews forever.

There are other ways to acheive peace, and besides if Arabs could be citizens what's stopping the Hamas or whatnot from hiring people to terrorize Israel with mega-terror attacks that they could so easily perpetrate with citizenship? That is absolutly insane, no offense.

[MGB8]

AS I understand it, and I could be wrong, the majority of the 2.5-3 mil arabs in the territories are in fact in Gaza.

Moreover, my guess would be that many of the WB Arabs would want to move to Arab states, when they finally realized that the WB would never be ruled by Arabs.

Arabs with ties to terrorist organizations would be disqualified, so youd get rid of a large segment there.

And, remember, there would be an oath of loyalt to Israel as the JEWISH homeland, probably followed by irriversible constitutional changes making sure that this is in effect.



Originally posted by I am David
Offer the Arabs in WB citizenship? Are you INSANE ?
That would mean Israel would cease to be a Jewish state, because of the Arab majority with full voting rights. At that point you could say goodbye to Jews forever.

There are other ways to acheive peace, and besides if Arabs could be citizens what's stopping the Hamas or whatnot from hiring people to terrorize Israel with mega-terror attacks that they could so easily perpetrate with citizenship? That is absolutly insane, no offense.

[I am David]

It's still no good I say. Israel is in danger of becoming non Jewish even without additional Arabs, and Arabs would contribute absolutly nothing to Israel's high tech economy or anything in general.

[danholo]

Aren't there 1 million Palestinians in Gaza and 2 million in the West Bank?

[Mediocrates]

Yeah. Anyway regardless of ethnicity, ANY country will collapse when subjected to the demographics of the West Bank and Gaza. Nearly 50% of the population is under the age of 14 and the trend is only accelerating. If we use common defintions used by the UN and other NGO's, the Palestinians (and most of the arab world) are far into the danger zone for unsustainable population growth. Current trends puts the Palestinian population at nearly 7 million by 2020 and possibly 10+ million by 2030. At this point the entire society comes to a halt. Too many mouths to feed, too few working adults.

[MGB8]

Originally posted by danholo
Aren't there 1 million Palestinians in Gaza and 2 million in the West Bank?

Urg, well, that makes the plan more difficult. There are always local autonomy provisions...but this brings us closer (although not near) the accusations of appartheid.

I agree that taking on additional Arabs is a risky proposition...but, if we FIRST fight and WIN the war on terror, and force those who support terror to disqualify themselves from potential citizenship, and offer atractive alternatives to those who would willingly leave...we could settle this issue without putting the nation at risk.

Besides, with such a high young population, and very male, too, most of the kids will end up in jail, anyway, and then likely deported. I know that's cynical, but its the way it is.

[Mediocrates]

You don't get it - it's a catastrophe no matter what flag they fly. Arab population growth is unsustainably high In fact you only need to project out to 2020 to see a society overwhelmed with 60-70% under the age of 14, no schools, no hospitals, no jobs. Picture subsaharan Africa w/o the mosquitos.

[I am David]

Oh, not to mention that Israel would cease to be a Jewish state and Jews would disapear forever in a few genereations (or more).

[Moskal']

It is our duty to build schools and hospitals for them. As you know, population growth depends on social conditions (esp. fem. education level), wich are appaling. We have no time to change those, as the catastrophe is drawing closer. Giving up Gaza (to Egypt?) might be useful, as a large part of arab population lives in a strategically unimportant position, but in Judaea and Samaria rapid and decisive (social) measures must be taken. Such as an israeli propaganda campaign amongst arab population,forced education etc. It is clear that this is impossible as long the autonomy government, hostile to the centre, is not stripped of it's powers.

Originally posted by Mediocrates
You don't get it - it's a catastrophe no matter what flag they fly. Arab population growth is unsustainably high In fact you only need to project out to 2020 to see a society overwhelmed with 60-70% under the age of 14, no schools, no hospitals, no jobs. Picture subsaharan Africa w/o the mosquitos.

[Mediocrates]

Well no one disputes that it's a big problem. The question remains though, in what cynical world is it uniquely Israel's problem to solve? Where is the damn UN on day two after Pal independence?

The problems of the region are after all, regional. A water balloon. Squish it in one place and it bulges out somewhere else. There is no way that tiny Israel can fix it. And this is the plan of the ring arab states. Do nothing, let it all descend into flaming starving anarchy and then do nothing some more until Israel is forced to become involved. This is merely another form of warfare.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by I am David
With the upcoming Israeli elections, I thought it would be interesting to see who everyone here thinks would be the best Prime Minister for Israel.


I am a registered Likud party member since 1992. I have ceaded my right to vote and avoided voting.

I just couldn't made up my mind, who is worse or more destructive to Israel:

Natanyahu ("God's gift" in hebrew), who gave up Hebron, the second holliest city for the Jews to the Arabs, or refused to break the Oslo accords, once the Arabs had broken all of its terms back in 1996 (18 soldiers were killed in the fightings). Natanyahu could have done what ever he is preaching for, back then, and he didn't.

Sharon is in power for more then 2 years. He sees his job as digging up excuses why not to fight the arabs or why not to expel Arafat. First if Peres and the integritiy of the coallition, then America's efforts in Iraq... two years of excuses why not doing the obvious. Fight these arabs!!!

I took sharon a year and a half, with over 400 dead Jews to finaly allow the army to fight the terrorist on their own turf. How many more dead Israelis are needed before Sharon will finaly do what his voters expect him to do? Like expalling Arafat, arresting or killing the rest of his gang and give Syria Egypt Jorden and Iran some offers they mustn't refuse regarding thier support of international terrorism. (since we can forget about US war on terrorism, the US is so decadent that ten more 911 will not make her face its enemies in battle). Bush's talk of war in Iraq is just propaganda, cheap talk for internal purposes. I don't believe he cares about war with terrorists, all he cares about is staying in office for another term, for the benefit of the rich and powerful who support him. Just like Sharon.

Everybody know were the head of the serpent lies, every body knows Islamism is the problem, the culture of Arab facism, racism and intolerance, not Bin Laden. Bin Laden is just the symptom. Should he begone, in a decade or so, there will be another. The core of the issue the Islamist culture, just like Natzism, Racism or Communism in Europe, at their time.

As long as Arabs got oil, rich powerful people will abuse western democratic systems to halt or prevent ANY major revolution in Arab culture, let alone one that should be enforced by american millitary might. Enjoy the next 911... there nothing you can do to prevent it: since, there will be no war in Iraq, no one really cares about arab terrorism, and many in europe actualy support these terroristic actions against Americans and Jews. As long as Arabs got oil, they hold you by the groin and you are powerless to stop them.

Mitzna is an a*shole. Every body knows that in Israel. He is driven by a bunch of wealthy businessmen with european and arab connections. His opinions are irrelevant in modern Israel politics but they sound just swell aboard. YACK!!!

[Moskal']

I told you people - give Lieberman a try.
And I would not really blame Netanjahu for what he done - his term was the peacefulest time in Israel in the last decade.

[L@mplighterM]

Give me a try I’ll put an Uzi, M16, grenade launcher, missile launcher and all the ammunition they require into the hands of every Jew. I’ll abolish the courts and remove the criminal code.

That’s a promise!

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Moskal'
I told you people - give Lieberman a try.
And I would not really blame Netanjahu for what he done - his term was the peacefulest time in Israel in the last decade.


what's this?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1038716165509

Supporters of Foreign Minister Binyamin Netanyahu charged Prime Minister Ariel Sharon with allowing the "hijacking" of Sunday night's Likud convention at the Tel Aviv Fairgrounds.

The convention ended in an uproar some 15 minutes after it began, without any of the secret ballot voting that had been scheduled on possible changes in the system for electing Likud MKs. Several MKs had requested a repeal of a convention decision last month to prevent incumbent MKs from seeking 15 realistic slots representing sectors and regions.

Instead, after Sharon delivered an address calling for party unity, the convention co-president, Sharon's former bureau chief Uri Shani, invited Yehiel Hazan, the director of the Prime Minister's Office's branch in Ariel, to speak. Hazan asked the crowd to disregard all the proposals to change the system and vote to keep the status quo.

After the motion passed overwhelmingly, Likud director-general Arik Brami, a Sharon ally, ordered the playing of "Hatikva," signifying the end of the convention.

MK Ayoub Kara, who will be forced by the decision to compete nationally, instead of in the Druse sector, tried to object but failed.
The other co-president, Netanyahu's campaign chief MK Yisrael Katz, said that his microphone was turned off, preventing him from stopping the maneuver.

He accused Sharon's allies of planning the episode in advance to prevent a vote on changing the system.

"What happened is an embarrassment for the Likud that could hurt the party in the upcoming election," said MK Yuval Steinitz, a Netanyahu supporter. "If we can't rule ourselves properly, if our leaders can't control the central committee and put some order in place, then maybe we don't deserve to rule the country."

Steinitz, who was elected from the Haifa region, said the decision will harm Netanyahu's supporters, because Sharon's allies are ministers who have more exposure, while Netanyahu's people are regular MKs, such as himself, Katz, Kara, and Avraham Herschson.

The current system limits incumbent MKs to running for the first 18 slots, which will likely also include several non-MKs, such as Netanyahu, Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz, and Jerusalem Mayor Ehud Olmert, leaving no more than 15 realistic slots for the 26 incumbent Likud MKs, including recent additions from Gesher, Am Ehad, and the Center Party.

Former Center Party MK Nehama Ronen appealed to be allowed to run for a slot reserved for women, but the Likud's high court ruled that even castoffs from other parties must compete nationally. Other proposals called for additional slots to be reserved for incumbents and for a slot to be reserved for an Orthodox MK.

"The bottom line is that more than half the Likud's MKs will likely be excluded from the next Knesset, even if they did a magnificent job, especially if they were close to Bibi," Steinitz said.

Sharon's allies said Hazan's proposal properly expressed the opinions of the majority of the convention, but they admitted the convention could have ended in a more organized fashion.

When Sharon spoke, he called for an end to divisiveness and factionalism in the party. He was referring to reports of a "hit list" in the central committee to try to stop senior Likud MKs from attaining top spots on the party's list in next Sunday's primaries.

"I call on every member of the Likud convention to refrain from settling political accounts," Sharon said. "The Likud will not stoop to the mudslinging and hatred of its political opponents."

Sharon also said that he hopes "our opponents in the election will not surrender to bad judgment and try to find refuge outside the borders of our land, with people who do not have the good of our people in mind."

Although he did not mention names, it was obvious to the crowd that he was referring to Labor Party chairman Amram Mitzna, who is considering visiting Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.

Sharon met Mitzna earlier in the day in the Prime Minister's Office in what he said would be the first in a series of regular meetings. The two sides said diplomatic and security matters were discussed in the closed-door meeting, not political issues.

It was the first meeting between the two since the Lebanon War, when Mitzna, then an officer, harshly criticized Sharon's handling of the war as defense minister.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.arutzsheva.com/news.php3?id=34812

Netanyahu Turns Down Lieberman
MK Avigdor Lieberman, who was recently named the official leader of the National Union party, invited Binyamin Netanyahu to take his place and stand at the head of the "true right-wing party." The invitation came as Netanyahu supporters suffered another loss at a Likud convention last night, when their proposed method of choosing Knesset candidates was not even voted upon. This led some Likud voters to threaten to shift their support to Lieberman's National Union.

The National Union comprises three parties: that which used to be Lieberman's Yisrael Beiteinu party; Moledet of Benny Elon; and Tekumah of Tzvi Hendel. Lieberman has long been a political ally of Netanyahu, even serving as his top aide during Netanyahu's term as Prime Minister. Despite this, Netanyahu turned down the offer, saying the Likud is his home. MK Michael Kleiner, who split off from the National Union two years ago and is hoping to garner the minimum amount of votes required for election to the Knesset, said that the new National Union is really "Likud B" and not a true right-wing alternative.

[tkcteccfrs]

Arik, The King Of The Jews!

Today (November 28th) the Likud will pick its leader and the person that is likely to be the next Prime Minister. While many of my friends on the right have written in support of Bibi Netanyahu, I believe that they are being shortsighted. While I am painfully aware of the often incomprehensible restraint Sharon has shown in reaction to Palestinian atrocities and the free reign he provided to Ben-Eliezer to sacrifice security for his own political ends, I believe that Sharon has done the best that could be hoped for under difficult diplomatic and political circumstances. It is easy for Netanyahu to make statements about how aggressive he would be as PM against the PLO, but as I recall, it was Netanyahu who signed the Wye River accords which started the transfer of Area A to the terrorists and it was also Netanyahu who surrendered the holy city of Hebron to the murderers despite his promise never to do so. Sharon has certainly never agreed to give up a single inch to Arafat and has actually consistently increased settlement activity as Housing Minister and PM. I believe my fellow right-wingers who have lost faith in him are overestimating Netanyahu's ability to deliver on his promise of immediately ending Arafat's terror regime. With the economy in shambles, and Israel desperately needing to keep its only major ally, it would be the wrong time to aggressively distance themselves from American policy. I am surprised how quickly people have forgotten Sharon's impeccable record of over 50 years. While much of the right condemns Sharon for what he has not yet achieved, I prefer to look at his impeccable record of over 50 years from Qibya, to Umm Qatef, to Deversoir. Let us remember that as Chairman of the Ministerial Committee for Settlement Affairs from 1977 to 1981 and as Minister of Housing & Construction from 1990 to 1992, Sharon initiated and carried out the extensive settlement of Judea, Samaria, Gaza and the Golan. While it is easy to sit back and criticize what he has not yet been able to accomplish, I think it would be difficult for anyone to find someone who had done more for Israel’s security and for the Jewish presence in Yesha. My friends in the National Camp seem to forget what he has accomplished so far in his short time as PM. He has effectively nullified the Oslo Accords without incurring the wrath of the US and has completely destroyed the infrastructure of the Palestinian Authority to the point that Arafat is no longer a major military force. Furthermore he has wiped out the majority of the leadership of Hamas and the PFLP in the West Bank. While his public statements in favor of a PA terrorist state are troubling, it is important to look at his actions and realize that his words are primarily meant for the hypocrites in the White House and the UN. There is obviously much more to be done, but Sharon is the person who can best negotiate the diplomatic, political and military minefields on the way to a terrorist free Eretz Israel.

I believe that Arik Sharon's goals cannot be questioned even as we are impatient with his methodology. His devotion to the State of Israel and the security of the Jewish people is legendary. Both as a soldier and a politician he has never failed to put the security of Israel first despite the constant treachery of his enemies on the left. As the traitors in the Labor Party scheme to surrender Israel to the terrorists, the EU collaborators fund their latest final solution and the mobs howl for Jewish blood from Paris to Kiev, there has never been a more important time for Israel and the Jewish people to be led by a man with the strength and courage of Arik Sharon. Let us not forget the cry of the soldiers after Sharon’s heroism in the Yom Kippur War, “Arik, the King of the Jews!”

American Zionist Information Network (http://www.azin.org/)

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by tkcteccfrs
Arik, The King Of The Jews!

...I believe that Arik Sharon's goals cannot be questioned even as we are impatient with his methodology. His devotion to the State of Israel and the security of the Jewish people is legendary. Both as a soldier and a politician he has never failed to put the security of Israel first despite the constant treachery of his enemies on the left. As the traitors in the Labor Party scheme to surrender Israel to the terrorists, the EU collaborators fund their latest final solution and the mobs howl for Jewish blood from Paris to Kiev, there has never been a more important time for Israel and the Jewish people to be led by a man with the strength and courage of Arik Sharon. Let us not forget the cry of the soldiers after Sharon’s heroism in the Yom Kippur War, “Arik, the King of the Jews!”

American Zionist Information Network (http://www.azin.org/)

Certainly a well-articulated statement for Sharon over Netanyahu. Though I agree with much of it, I think Netanyahu also deserves some benefit of the doubt. We are told Sharon has been forced to compromise under tremendous pressure. The same could be said of Netanyahu's first term as PM.

I believe that the day is not far when Israel will once again call on Netanyahu to do the job. He has made understanding terrorism his specialty. Sharon is somewhat encumbered -- not only by Labor and western liberals, but by the Arab/Islamist Big Lie. Netanyahu understands that the states that support terrorism understand only one thing: force and the threat of force.

[Moskal']

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Certainly a well-articulated statement for Sharon over Netanyahu. Though I agree with much of it, I think Netanyahu also deserves some benefit of the doubt. We are told Sharon has been forced to compromise under tremendous pressure. The same could be said of Netanyahu's first term as PM.

I believe that the day is not far when Israel will once again call on Netanyahu to do the job. He has made understanding terrorism his specialty. Sharon is somewhat encumbered -- not only by Labor and western liberals, but by the Arab/Islamist Big Lie. Netanyahu understands that the states that support terrorism understand only one thing: force and the threat of force.

Very correct. I absolutely agree with every word of these. As Sharon tries to appease every faction and tries to please left and right, Israeli policy has no direction and thus, does not move into the direction of a solution. Empty threats make Israel laughable. We talked enough. It is about time to act.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Moskal'
Very correct. I absolutely agree with every word of these. As Sharon tries to appease every faction and tries to please left and right, Israeli policy has no direction and thus, does not move into the direction of a solution. Empty threats make Israel laughable. We talked enough. It is about time to act.

Can't agree more!

Sharon prime mistake 20 years ago, duering the ill fated Lebanon war, was that he has "gone through" alone, with out the support of the Left, the opposition. He (and others) believe that the devid within Israel if the cause of many of the political hardships Israel and Sharon himself suffered in Lebanon.

In Lebanon, Arafat had constracted a state with in a state, from which Arafat launched terroristic horrible attacks against men women and children as well as frequent rocket bombardment of civilian towns and cities.

Sharon went in, alone, with no clear american backing, against Soviet backing of the enemy, with no backing of the opposion at home. Add to that the fact he had lausy sloppy generals (like Mitzna and Barak), the Army suffered several blunders and faced prolonged conflict which the IDF was not built to handle.

Sharon's lesson was to drag Labour's support at all costs. fight only with both a full and clear American backing and with internal political consensus. The immidieat result: Arafat and the Europeans faild to split our forces, cause a divide with in the Jewish politics and a rift in American Israeli relations. Also, the far left and other radicals with in the Labour had gone much weakened. The Left is in tremoil and has "lost its way". All opposion is practicly non existant from the left.

But the price is havy! Many bloods and a failing economy is the result of indecistion, half way fighting and a ineternational law lawers style of warfare.

As the opposion would get weaker, so will Sharon get stronger and freeier to act decisively.

[Communication]

Originally posted by MGB8
AS I understand it, and I could be wrong, the majority of the 2.5-3 mil arabs in the territories are in fact in Gaza.


There are about 1 million in Gaza and the rest are in the West Bank. But you are not including the Palestinians in Lebanon, Jordan, the US, the UK....they would all presumably have a right of return too, no? At least the 350,000 in Lebanon I imagine.

Moreover, my guess would be that many of the WB Arabs would want to move to Arab states, when they finally realized that the WB would never be ruled by Arabs.

Where do you get this idea from. Arafat himself has called the Palestinian birthrate his "nuclear weapon." Your statement couldn't be further from the truth.

Arabs with ties to terrorist organizations would be disqualified, so youd get rid of a large segment there.

What do you do, strip them of citizenship? That isn't going over too well with Israeli Arabs who are caught engaging in acts of terror themselves.

And, remember, there would be an oath of loyalt to Israel as the JEWISH homeland, probably followed by irriversible constitutional changes making sure that this is in effect.

Ok, so now you've gone and turned Israel into Lebanon.