Roots of the conflict [Archive]

takeo

01-27-2002, 10:30 PM

Every sociologist, antropologist and linguist in the world will agree that both arabic and hebrew are semitic languages and that both are semitic people. One can't "loose" its status to be semitic or germanic or whatever (only the nazi's thought so that you could loose your status of being a Germanic people if you mixed too much with Jews, etc. , so in his mind the english and americans "lost" their status of Germanic nation, completely bullshit of course)

"I'll tell you this though in one of your posts you advocated or came close to promoting genocide of jews. Self-defense is one thing but outright murder is quite another story. "

in which post did i promote genocide of jews??????????????
I hope this time you can proove your statement, not like the statement you made about "burka's in the Qoran". (but i'm pretty sure you can't, i would never ever promote such an idea)
You suggested however on several occations that the Palestinians don't belong in the area between the Jordan and the sea.

"You are giving the Palestinians justification to commit murder and I believe you may just have hung yourself. "

i didn't, i only said that killing occupiing force (military or armed militia) or political responsables is legitimated in war-fare according to international law, not murder against civilians.

"My beef with the Arabs is that:

1.They commit terrorist acts

2.They do not pressure Arafat to stop violence.

That is why they make shitty neighbours."

1) Israel does so too, it started its terrorism and repression in the occupied territories in 1967 and never quitted since (with some brief interpause in the 90's)

2) Arafat pressures his population to be patient and pacific! But it is difficult if your life has been destroyed because you belong to the wrong etnic group.

Israel is a shitty neighbour of the Palestinians and Arabs since the beginning, it is not one-sided! if you are the neighbourhoods bully taking posetions of your neighbours, than of course you shouldn't expect them to say "well, no problem man, let's be friends".

L@mplighterM

01-28-2002, 07:40 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by takeo
[B]My indignation against Israeli policy started when i first visited a palestinian refugee camp in the gaza and there you could just smell the fascist treatment Israel forced upon an entire people. Whatever my etnic origin, i could never defend such injustice and repression, and i can very well imagine if i would have been locked up in such a camp since my youth i would want noting else but killig as many Israeli as possible. i have been educated and know such act wouldn't help the palestinians and that not all Israeli citizens are responsible for the acts of their government. But these people are desperate, don't have a future, and it is astonishing that such kind of repression is tolerated by the world.

In this post you give the Palestinians justification for their terrorism. In this post you support killing of innocent jewish civilians world wide.

These people are where they are because of the leadership provided to them by their leaders.

raven

01-28-2002, 07:45 AM

Its time for the US to stop "parsing" the term Terrorist. If they dont, it was become apparant to decent people that killing of Jews is OK and purposely not classified as Terrorism but killing of their own-- IS. The US will lose any moral high ground and THEN we can then start discussing if this is a replay of the 30's. Who knew we were about to be murdured and who didnt care? Who pretended that we were exagurating? How close in mentality and tactics is the world, including the US to the events in the 30's? We have not opened up the subject but if this goes on it is TIME TO DO SO.

raven

01-28-2002, 08:14 AM

In case anyone does NOT know by this time about the 30's before WW2-- and who knew what and when they knew it and who apparantly didnt give a hoot in h-ll. Here it is in a nutshell.

All during the 30's citizens of all the Western Countries, at the highest level, interacted with citizens of Germany. They did business, socialized etc. They HEARD from the mouths of these people what their attitudes were and increasingly heard the people in charge of Government planning to do just what they did in some manner. No surprises. Not really.

Next--The Allies broke the German Code almost immediately.(early 1942) They listened in from the beginning. So that had a good picture of what the mentality was. Heard quite a bit of the plans.

Furthermore, this was the 1930s and 40s NOT the 1400s. Many people living in Germany and Eastern Europe wrote LETTERS to their relatives all over the world and said exactly what was happening. Others, not Jews, in those small towns were talking about what was happening on Market Day and to their own relatives in other countries-- as well. Somehow...(just like now) people purposely ignored what was going on or minimized it and somehow even mentioning what was happening equaled "UnAmerican and Selfish". Jews were encouraged to keep quiet or there would be a "backlash" or we would mess up the War Effort. We are hearing the exact same thing right now.

Time to scream and yell. Time to take charge of the word- Terrorist -and what it really means.

NewsGuy

01-28-2002, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by raven
Its time for the US to stop "parsing" the term Terrorist. If they dont, it was become apparant to decent people that killing of Jews is OK and purposely not classified as Terrorism but killing of their own-- IS.

Excatly right, raven.

There is no "good" or accpetable terrorism. It is all the same.

But it is up to Israel not to reply on the US or anyone else's favors to define terrorism. Israel needs to act in its own interests and begin an all-out assault on Arab terrorism, just like the US is doing to defend US citizens.

L@mplighterM

01-28-2002, 08:27 PM

Right on!!!!!!!!!!! Who knows they might get lucky and plug a certain propagandanist that sounds almost as bad as Goebels,

raven

01-29-2002, 07:04 AM

The last time I heard the President and the Administration they are still "qualifying" the word "Terrorist" when applied to many of the Palistinians and their groups. {not so in India or the Pillipines} These people and groups are much the same, allied with each other, and they know it.

The word they are using is "unique". As in "the ME and what is going on there is-- unique." This is code for "violence against Jews in Israel has different qualities and a semi legitimate root cause, and isnt quite the same as what is happening in other parts of the world and definately NOT the same as what is happening to Americans."

Why we are only objecting to this in private is beyond me. We need to define THAT kind of qualifying as modern and a new form "anti-semetism". Holding Jews to a different sets of standards and behaviors IS and always has been --antisemetism.

As we stand today, the Saudis are playing hardball. They threaten to take all their oil and other business and transfer the bulk of it to the EU. (This has been the threat for 70 years now) if the US doesnt do what they want--in alot of areas, especially with Israel and the Palistinians. This will cause the US to immediately find some reason to stay with Arafat OR if not humanly possible they will annoint some new Palistinian as a leader and ascribe all the best qualities to him, true or not, (the best tactic would to chose a woman to represnt the Pals) and start all over again. Then they will dare us to object to the leader that they appoint.

It is time for us to play hardball also or (simple as this) we arent going to survive as an independent people on par with other peoples, living in ANY country. We should not accept the under the radar intimidation ( Do what we want or we may not be kindly disposed to Israel) that has been going on. It doesnt work to "keep quiet". Reports of Antisemetic incidents in France shows this and recently, reports that it is now rather acceptable to make outright Antisemetic statements in the best of company in GB- shows what happens when we dont speak up. I thought that we had learned that.

takeo

01-29-2002, 11:13 AM

"The last time I heard the President and the Administration they are still "qualifying" the word "Terrorist" when applied to many of the Palistinians and their groups. {not so in India or the Pillipines} These people and groups are much the same, allied with each other, and they know it.
The word they are using is "unique". As in "the ME and what is going on there is-- unique." This is code for "violence against Jews in Israel has different qualities and a semi legitimate root cause, and isnt quite the same as what is happening in other parts of the world and definately NOT the same as what is happening to Americans."

Yes, this definition is right. If Israel wouldn't be occupiing the occupied territories and confirm the un-resolutions, than it would not be right to treat palestinian terrorism (by the way the PA is NOT a terrorist group but a recognised government) otherwise than other terrorist groups, however as long as Israel is a terrorist state itself, then can't compare palestinian resistance to terrorist groups as Al-Quaida. You will also note that the liberation front of Southern Morocco and (previously) the eastern Timor liberation front were never integrated on this list, because they fight against foreign and internationally condamned occupation and terrorism as well. In other words: they are conducting self-defense.

"Why we are only objecting to this in private is beyond me. We need to define THAT kind of qualifying as modern and a new form "anti-semetism". Holding Jews to a different sets of standards and behaviors IS and always has been --antisemetism. "

Of course i forgot that any criticism on killing and destroying palestinians is anti-semitism.

Sharon and his extremist friends will never accept any palestinian leader, as their ultimate gaol is to evict all palestinians from the sea to the Jordan river.

"It is time for us to play hardball also or (simple as this) we arent going to survive as an independent people on par with other peoples, living in ANY country. We should not accept the under the radar intimidation ( Do what we want or we may not be kindly disposed to Israel) that has been going on. It doesnt work to "keep quiet". Reports of Antisemetic incidents in France shows this and recently, reports that it is now rather acceptable to make outright Antisemetic statements in the best of company in GB- shows what happens when we dont speak up. I thought that we had learned that."

The policy of Israel will lead to more anti-semitism and playing hard-ball will have very hard consequences, not only for the palestinians(destruction) but as well for Israel.
besides anti-semitism in Europe is nothing compared to anti-arab racism in Europe (and the US for that matter) stop whining about anti-semitism, i know that is not really a problem in europe, however the occupation and etnic cleansing policy of Israel is a real problem for Israel, the Palestinians and the entire world

takeo

01-29-2002, 11:49 AM

lomplighter, did you just wish me death?

"[QUOTE]Originally posted by takeo
[B]My indignation against Israeli policy started when i first visited a palestinian refugee camp in the gaza and there you could just smell the fascist treatment Israel forced upon an entire people. Whatever my etnic origin, i could never defend such injustice and repression, and i can very well imagine if i would have been locked up in such a camp since my youth i would want noting else but killig as many Israeli as possible. i have been educated and know such act wouldn't help the palestinians and that not all Israeli citizens are responsible for the acts of their government. But these people are desperate, don't have a future, and it is astonishing that such kind of repression is tolerated by the world.

In this post you give the Palestinians justification for their terrorism. In this post you support killing of innocent jewish civilians world wide.
These people are where they are because of the leadership provided to them by their leaders."

This people are where they are because of Israel's expansion-policy, and this policy is also the reason of palestinian terrorism.
i didn't gave a legitimation, i said that they conduct in such way because of what israel did to them, not because they "are animals, etc." I didn't say it was the good thing to do, on the contrary i condamned such acts, but i said the origin of such irresponsible acts is in the irresponsible policy of israel. If someone would kill my sister it would be wrong of me to kill this murderer, however if i would kill him it would be a consequence of his act.
besides Israel has the same lunatic reprisals as the extreme-wing palestinians. Palestinians kill innocent people at a girl's party because israels policy destroyed their lifes, houses and killed their brothers, israel destroys the harbour and radio installations and destroys houses of innocent people because some extremist palestinian killed innocent people. Both take reprisals on the wrong people.

"Its time for the US to stop "parsing" the term Terrorist. If they dont, it was become apparant to decent people that killing of Jews is OK and purposely not classified as Terrorism but killing of their own-- IS. The US will lose any moral high ground and THEN we can then start discussing if this is a replay of the 30's. Who knew we were about to be murdured and who didnt care? Who pretended that we were exagurating? How close in mentality and tactics is the world, including the US to the events in the 30's? We have not opened up the subject but if this goes on it is TIME TO DO SO."

The comparisation to the 30's is fake, unless you compare israel to nazi-Germany. the palestinians are a little oppressed people who are persecuted by a powerfull regional power and a super-power ally. Nazi-germany was an important regional power with important allies that oppressed little people in eastern Europe and the jews. in both cases the lack of engagement of the West (only in words) was deathly for the oppressed.
All during the 30's citizens of all the Western Countries, at the highest level, interacted with citizens of Germany. They did business, socialized etc. They HEARD from the mouths of these people what their attitudes were and increasingly heard the people in charge of Government planning to do just what they did in some manner. No surprises. Not really.
The same applies to Israel, everyone knows where sharon stands for, and everyone know some people in the right-wing establishment of israel want to exterminate all palestinians "from the Sea to the jordan", still the western countries don't really react, except in words (they did the same during the spanish civil war and in the 30's, however no real mesures were taken).
people know what was happening, and today they know it as well, we can see it on television, we can hear it on this board. Some people inside israel are critical but their voices are not heard. Palestinian Israeli have to keep quiet or face deathly repression as happened some months ago, more and more extremists are willing to target them too. (someone here on this board said they should be separated from the Jews, i forgot who it was, probably lomplighter) .
Also both nazi-Germany and Israel label themselves as "victims" of an Arab or jewish conspiration to destroy them. this was a legitimation for a repression policy against neighbouring countries and etnic minorities.
of course the comparisation is not total, the nazi's were still a lot more extremist than the leadership in Israel, and germany was of course a more dangerous power than little Israel, however what we see here are similar fascist views and policies, and it is incomprehensible for me that Jews, who suffered so much in the hands of fascists, can approove this.

L@mplighterM

01-29-2002, 12:41 PM

I'm a pacefist takeo I don't wish anyone dead.

What gives you the idea that I would want to see anyone dead that gives justification to evil people for the killing of men, women, children and the unborn??????????????????

How can you ask such a thing??????

I have to admit that I would't feel bad if a fellow Muslim of yours stuck a AK47 up your *** and pulled the trigger I think the world would be a little better place.

But no I don't wish anyone dead that would be against my beliefs.

I'll tell you this though you sure the hell didn't read the same history books as me and I know you Arabs write your own perverse interpretation of history. You fill in gaps that you think sound good and then you attempt to brainwash the west with lies.

Who's King Salem???????????????? Who controlled Jerusalem prior to 1967??????????? Let's hear your BS.

raven

01-29-2002, 01:45 PM

Lamp: The newest version of History is that the Arabs occupied the United States before the Native Americans. Oops. Here we go in America. Its just a small voice now, but you can depend on this rediculous version of history to grow.

Wherever you are in this world, it seems, that the Arabs were there first and will claim your territory and if you dont give it up...then they will kill you. Flat out. And this is the way it has indeed been going. In India, in China, In Russia, In Israel, In Eastern Europe...help Im losing count already.

Im gonna say it...the elevator does go to the top with these people. And thats a problem. Outright nuts having their hands anywhere close to Nukes.

And it seems, we arent really going after Terrorists at all. Somalia? Give me a break. Not Iran, Iraq, the Pals, SAUDIS, Egypt, Syria?????shoot.

raven

01-29-2002, 01:51 PM

Posted twice...dont know why so erased it.:mad:

L@mplighterM

01-29-2002, 01:58 PM

Raven *LOL* That's funny. Hate to think what the future will bring,

L@mplighterM

01-29-2002, 02:49 PM

Here's a bit of Palestinian BS.

Jerusalem: A Tale of One City
The New Republic, Nov. 14, 1994

By Martin Gilbert

On August 18 Yasir Arafat, speaking as head of the Palestinian National Authority in Gaza and Jericho, told Arab youngsters at a summer camp, "Those of you who lit the intifada fire must now act as defenders of this young state, whose capital is Jerusalem. It is Bir Salem [the fountain of Salem]. Salem was one of the Canaanite Kings, one of our forefathers. This city is the capital of our children and our children's children. If not for this belief and conviction of the Palestinian nation, this people would have been erased from the face of the earth, as were so many other nations."

The complete article can be found at:

http://web.idirect.com/~cic/jerusalem/martinGilbertArticle.htm

raven

01-29-2002, 03:52 PM

Here comes the "Cannonite" Cr-p. Heres how that goes. The modern Palistinian fairy story now is comming under fire and more and more people around the world now understand that it was just a "device" to construct a minority group within the Billion and a Half Muslim Population. It didnt look good to have a Billion and a Half of Islam's finest against a tiny few million Jews. Real bad PR for Arabs. David and Goliath and all that. Had to fix that. So here comes a parallel minority people...the Palistinians. Total PR baloney. And everyone with a brain knew it too.

More people also now understand that ancient "Palististine" was just name foisted on the area by the Romans expressly to whipe the Jews from History for all time. (amazing to me that it didnt work) More and more people understand that a separate and distinct Palistinian People is a recent fiction and that there is absolutely NO proof of the story in the ground, no proof in old writings, and no proof in their actual DNA. So..here comes the Cannonite Business. Why? Cause the Cannonites, unlike the Palistinians, can be dated in that area earlier then the people-- Israel--and that it will be hard to prove they are somehow NOT Cannonites. Its a squishy catagory.

One teesny weensy little problem: There are NO full Cannonites as a people left as there is also no Edomites or Midianites, or whatever--ites...from that time. They all disappeared into each other...all gone...except for us. Extrodinary. We didnt give up. We didnt melt completely into everyone else. I dont know why, but we didnt. We are the only ones, as a distinct group, from that area, from that time, still here.

Its gonna be about definitions again. Whats a Cannonite? How much Cannonite DNA do you have to have to claim Cannonite Status? If they find you have 1/64th identifyable Cannonite (whatever that will be) DNA markers..then waa--laaa YOU...can have part of Israel? How many people are they going to identify as Cannonite? You can see it comming. All to swamp us away if possible.

This does not sound like acceptance of Jews to ME. The more things change...the more they stay the same.

takeo

01-29-2002, 08:47 PM

well, lomplighter, you don't want anyone dead but you wouldn't feel bad if someone killed me. This is the same kind of hypocricy all zionist extremists use. they don't want genocide against the Palestinians but they have to disappear from the area between the sea and the Jordan, give me a break please...
Very strange for a pacifist to not feel feel bad if anyone is murdered, very strange as well to ask for more bombings and choose for the military solution against your victims...
I really ask where you've got your history books (the same applies for raven) Everyone aknowdedges, even in Israel, that untill 1948 the majority of the population in the area between the sea and the Jordan was Palestinian. You can read this even in American history books.
Nobody ever claimed that Arabs occupied territory as a majority anywhere else than from Morocco to Iraq, but they did live in "Israel" before 1948, as a majority, as well in Jerusalem, I already gave a reference to the website of Stanford university on this site where this is mentioned, but you can find it in any history book as well and even in Israel's history books. So your denial of this is really ridiculous. besides there is not such things as Arabs,as there isn't such a thing as "Jews". You have Moroccans, who speak Arabs but have been mixed with berbers, etc., Saoudi's who were originally bedoins, Sudanese who are mixed with negro's, Palestinians mixed with all kinds of people who passed trough in the history of palestine/Israel (crusaders, etc.) and develloped an own different culture, you have Israeli(a mix of people around the world who immigrated there) ashkenazi, sefardims, etc. all different people.
about the atomic bomb, some muslim countries already have a nuclear bomb, and not the most moderate ones (Iran, Pakistan) but didn't use them or even treatened to use them. i think a bigger danger would be israel, that would certainly use it if Israel would be military weaker than some of its neighbours.

"More people also now understand that ancient "Palististine" was just name foisted on the area by the Romans expressly to whipe the Jews from History for all time. (amazing to me that it didnt work) More and more people understand that a separate and distinct Palistinian People is a recent fiction and that there is absolutely NO proof of the story in the ground, no proof in old writings, and no proof in their actual DNA. So..here comes the Cannonite Business. Why? Cause the Cannonites, unlike the Palistinians, can be dated in that area earlier then the people-- Israel--and that it will be hard to prove they are somehow NOT Cannonites. Its a squishy catagory. "

Even Israeli history books confirmed that palestinians, or at least arab-speaking people, lived in that area AT LEAST since 2000 years.

"One teesny weensy little problem: There are NO full Cannonites as a people left as there is also no Edomites or Midianites, or whatever--ites...from that time. They all disappeared into each other...all gone...except for us. Extrodinary. We didnt give up. We didnt melt completely into everyone else. I dont know why, but we didnt. We are the only ones, as a distinct group, from that area, from that time, still here. "

what about the Filistines?

"Its gonna be about definitions again. Whats a Cannonite? How much Cannonite DNA do you have to have to claim Cannonite Status? If they find you have 1/64th identifyable Cannonite (whatever that will be) DNA markers..then waa--laaa YOU...can have part of Israel? How many people are they going to identify as Cannonite? You can see it comming. All to swamp us away if possible. "

This is all stuf for historians, it doesn't matter, what really matters is that palestinians lived in this land for the past 10 or probably a lot more centuries as a majority. It means they are an original people and have the right to be there as much as the white americans have the right to be in america. (who lived there as a majority for 3 centuries)
And talking about DNA... if you look at the black Ethiopian Jews and the blonde German or Polish Jews and sees that most sefardims look exactly like Arabs, one can wonder how "original" these jews were (also a lot of tatar of the Khasar Khanat around the Kaspian sea converted to jewish religion and became part of the Jewish community, this is where my mother's family is believed to come from as some other Russian Jews as well) and how much it are still the same people who left israel 2000 years ago.

takeo

01-29-2002, 08:50 PM

about Yerusalem: the western part belonged to Israel before 1967 and is recognised by the whole world, including the PA, as a part of israel, the east didn't belong to israel in 1967 and is nowhere recognised as a part of israel but is part of the occupied territories and have to be returned sooner or later to the palestinians.

L@mplighterM

01-29-2002, 10:04 PM

Guess there’s different types of pacifists.

Anyways I’m fed up with reading your garbage and twisted historical facts as a matter of fact I don’t anymore. Mao once said power comes from the point of a gun and truer words have never been spoken. I’m sure you bastards dampen the spirits of Jews living in Israel and elsewhere in the world.

But not my spirit because I know a wind of change is sweeping through the world and your time is coming to an end. You’ll be hunted down like mad dogs and put in cages and you will pay for your crimes against humanity.

Nuclear bombs yes, Israel has those and they know how to deliver them and they are the power and the glory. It’s my sincere wish that if it ever reaches the point where it seems like all is lost they deploy these weapons. I would be honored to punch in the launch sequences.

So why don’t you go back to your boss and tell him that you’ve failed and tell him to disarm his followers and destroy his weapons. Save yourselves and become Zen Buddhists or something. Build convents or monasteries and live there as pacifists wearing your burkas.

takeo

01-30-2002, 12:19 AM

Wow, you're really an unusual pacifist, who calls for the use of nuclear weapons and WWIII.
but if Israel deploys nuclear weapons it will mean the end of Israel as well.
I don't believe in hell and flying ghosts, but i'm sure history will decide upon your kind.
Of course it's always easier not to listen to rational counter-arguments that empoison your own sacred believe in the truth, for sure when that believe is really irrational and not based on any reality. If you say that only the guns, not morality or pacifism, will decide over the cource of history , you are right to some degree and you are legitimising terrorism. that's why terrorism exists, because sometimes there is only a military solution to reach liberation from oppression. But you should know as well that israel can never win the military struggle, the overwelming part of the world is against israel's policy of oppression. Your solution will lead Israel to destruction, that is why "my propaganda" is common among a lot of jewish people, even in israel. the only way Israel can survive on the long term is by making peace and complying to the un-resolutions.
By the way, about burka's, i still don't know where it is mentioned in the Qoran, and of course your silence confirms my suspition that you made yourself a new adopted version of the "reversed Qoran as a tool for spreading anti-Arab and anti-Mulsim racism" or you could call it "The elderly of Mecca" for example, where you could expose your whole theory about the Arab conspiracy to controll the world... :rolleyes:

L@mplighterM

01-30-2002, 06:31 AM

I call only for self defence to protect freedom and the truth. You call for death and a world full of fanatics and lunatics.

I'm a pacefist you're not.

You condone murder I don't.

I hate violence you justify it.

Only by being ready for war can nations survive. You brought up nuclear bombs. Peace can only be achieved at the point of a gun with fanatics.

I do not promote violence you do.

raven

01-30-2002, 08:21 AM

There are NO Filistines. You ninny. We are the only provable group that stayed intact (just proven by DNA testing). We have proven that we are who we say we are, and that our markers remain UNCHANGED. Yes...Outward appearance is NOT the measure. Hello. Bigot.

The Pal. story is a made up device to contruct a phony other "minority". That way people that wanted to get Israel away from us could start to help the Arab side. You just cannot make up a group all of a sudden and then use that made up group to steal someone elses land. If YOU get away with it, it will be an invitation for all sorts of others to grab whatever part of whatever country they want. Thats whats comming. Personally I-- like the Southern Part of Fla. Personally I think I might want the Southern Part of Fla. to be a Separate Country. I can state that Jews were in the New World 150 years before Anglo Saxons and therefore we can claim this part of the US for ourselves... Think that would fly? Not likely. Course if we used massive and sustained violence? Think that might work?? Maybe.

Palistinians are Newcommers.. to the Middle East, orgiionally from Greece and Crete. At the most a few hundred years vs. the rest of us in THOUSANDS of Years. Everyone and their second cousin in the ME is temporarily defining themselves as Palistinians. Thats where the numbers are comming from. Every disaffected Arab who cant make it where they come from are suddenly THE PALISTINIANS. You can distinuish who is who by the real personal history and by DNA testing. Those that lived in and around OUR COUNTRY , Israel, are essentianlly "subburbinite" Jordanians. Jordianians that wanted to expand out of Jordan and into what they thought was an easy mark. We werent the easy mark they thought.

You better find out who the people are you are yourself or are defending. It DOES matter who people are. When did it NOT matter? When did total fiction establish who is who. Cant continue to do that now because of DNA testing.

You and yours are going to actually have to state that even tho you are proven NOT to be who you say you are...you STILL demand a piece of anothers Country. Lets see how the World handles this.

raven

01-30-2002, 08:40 AM

Lamp and others: Read Nelson DeMilles "Lions Game". If you want to see the difference between the mindset of the Isamic World and the Western World. We might as well come from different planets. Its an apt novelization of a Libyian Terrorists attempt on the US. Very timely. This is really what we will have to deal with. The Twains NOT going to meet. Thats for sure. One of these cultures will have to either back off or change or go back to living the way they want and leaving others alone. I dont know......or there is going to be a big OR ELSE.

Mindset shown also in "Bank of Fear" David Ignacious --this is the Iraqui mind set. Good G-d. Its horrible.

Also the "Haj"-Leon Uris--boy can you see the incredible differences.

NewsGuy

01-30-2002, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by raven
If you want to see the difference between the mindset of the Islamic World and the Western World. We might as well come from different planets. ...

The Twains NOT going to meet. Thats for sure. One of these cultures will have to either back off or change or go back to living the way they want and leaving others alone. I dont know......or there is going to be a big OR ELSE.

The only alternative that so far has worked throughout the world is having 2 separate countries with a defensible international border between them.

Nothing else will work.

btw - Those are both great books. The Haj is one of my all-time favorites. A superb novel.

raven

01-30-2002, 01:09 PM

Haj --was fabulous. Got another one for you. The book itself isnt the best-- but the description of life and mindset in Saudi Arabia will blow you away. You live there in paranoid H-LL. I dont know what else to call that existance. Incredible and the author, pulled his punches not wanting to "disrespect" the Saudis too too much. Its called "The First Stone". Author's name excapes my mind for the moment. May start with an "S".

Two Nations? That might work if one Nation didnt want to completly obliterate the other and wont stop working for it. They may take a pause for about 10 years to build up their State but they will continue on their path. Thats what I think --will be.

I dont think most of us grasp the debth of the hatred for us. (we made that error before in the 30's) It will be a big mistake to establish a permanent Pal. State. It will just be a permanent launching pad for Terrorism and or Espinoge. (however you spell that last word) I doubt the Pals will eventually be in charge there anyway. Rest of the Arab World wont allow it. They dont want those nut cases with so much power. It was just a wedge issue for that world. A way IN to the take over of Israel. One of the big countries will take the area over...

NewsGuy

01-30-2002, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by raven
Its called "The First Stone". Author's name excapes my mind for the moment. May start with an "S".

...

I dont think most of us grasp the debth of the hatred for us. (we made that error before in the 30's) It will be a big mistake to establish a permanent Pal. State. It will just be a permanent launching pad for Terrorism and or Espionage.

Thnx. Will check out the book.

I think that if there is a Palestinian terrorist state that will launch attacks against Israel, then once and for all, I think Israel will simply have no choice but to obliterate them.

Unfortunately, there would be many casualties in both sides, but when it's over, there will be no more Palestinian terrorism and the map and character of the middle east will be changed for ever.

L@mplighterM

01-30-2002, 09:03 PM

How do you defend a border???? Build The Great Wall of China around the country? Egypt is getting Scud missiles from the US and eventually every Arab State will have some form of missiles. Iraq at one time tried to build a super cannon capable of hitting Israel. The guy that arranged the parts shipments was shot dead (Can't remember his name right now).

The only thing that keeps peace is Israel’s possession of non-conventional weapons, the ones that make mushroom clouds. The Arab countries know that Israel has nuclear capabilities and it keeps a stalemate of sorts.

Everything changes unfortunately and you cannot etch anything in stone. Wharever steps are taken now wont last forever.

In 1967 Israel launched a preemptive strike and beat the hell out of the Arabs. If they had waited another 24 - 48 hours or more who knows what would have happened. That's anyone’s guess isn't it?

Things are different now because Israel’s weapons have greater degree of sophistication, thanks in part to the US.

The point is walls are good for fighting with stones and arrows or pouring boiling oil on your enemy when they try to scale the wall but those days have faded into the past.

A one mile buffer zone that's one continues minefield would keep terrorists at bay. Trouble is there's been Jews caught that have smuggled terrorists across check points for money. How do you stop that????

I'm happy that I don’t have to mediate the problem because I couldn't solve it. The sad fact is that it most likely can only be patched up for a little while and then it'll flare up again. It's a fact that Islamic terrorists can't be eliminated and as I write another one has been born to be programmed as a terrorist and before I press send there'll be another.

NewsGuy

01-31-2002, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
How do you defend a border???? Build The Great Wall of China around the country? Egypt is getting Scud missiles from the US and eventually every Arab State will have some form of missiles. Iraq at one time tried to build a super cannon capable of hitting Israel. The guy that arranged the parts shipments was shot dead (Can't remember his name right now).

The only thing that keeps peace is Israel’s possession of non-conventional weapons, the ones that make mushroom clouds.

You're right in that a border cannot stop missiles. But it's not intended to do that. An international border is intended to stop people (in this case Arab terrorists) from crossing over without being duly inspected.

The only thing to stop Arab missiles from being fired, as you correctly say, is military deterrence. Other than nuclear weapons there are many other ways of creating a strong deterrence and these other ways are not being fully utilized yet by Israel, which is Israel's biggest mistake.

takeo

01-31-2002, 12:42 PM

LOL raven
So today we can determine wether one can live in a country according to DNA-testing of who lived there 2000 years ago?
I think if DNA-testing would have existed in the 30's and 40's Hitler would have agreed with you. And it would occure that everyone with "false" DNA should go to Auschwitz. My god, i'm still surprised that people today dare to defend such positions.
But anyway only lunatics like you will deny that palestinians didn't live in palestine for many years, at least 2000 years, this is an established fact among Western and even israeli historians and i would like to see a historic fact from an established historian (even israeli) that prooves the contrary. Besides you speak against yourself, one time you said they came from Creta, the other time they came from Jordan...
And talking about DNA, appearances DOES influence DNA, and people looking black will certainly not have the same DNA as blonde german jews.
About that separate state in Florida: indeed this idea is unacceptable, that's why the establishment of Israel was unacceptable to the palestinians in 1948. Now it is a fact so they have to live with it, but they will never allow that Israel takes MORE than it already got in 1967.

takeo

01-31-2002, 12:45 PM

i mean 1948 of course!
what it took in 1967 left nothing for the palestinians and was not accepted by the world. War will continue as long as israel occupies it.

takeo

01-31-2002, 01:13 PM

i am happy to see that you agree to see the fact that you can't stop terrorism with a wall or with pre-emptive strikes. in fact in 1967 israel inflicted terrorism on itself, the years before had been of relative calm in the middle-east, since 1967 made so many ennemies and the oppression in the occupied territories provoked so much violence that many Israeli see today that it was a big mistake. Since 1967 European, left-wing and other sympathy for Israel (which was still quite strong due to what happened in WWII) got a big blow(was already diminished after the war of 1955). The war in 1967 was certainly no act of self-defense and had no reasons other than to grap more land.
The gap between Arab and Western civilisation isn't very big, to convince yourself of that you shouldn't read hatefull books but visit Arab countries and talk to Arabs, if you go to Jordan, Iraq, Tunisia (i even saw gays kissing on the street or women in such short pants that it would be impropre even in France) or even to Iran, people think more modern and more modern than most Jews who live in Jerusalem (what i saw there was a car being stoned because it drove on saturday, such extreme acts of religious fanatism are unlikely in most muslim countries, excpet extreme ones as Saoudi Arabia or Afghanistan) .
the real gap is between extremists who think their own race /religious/social group has more rights is more important than other races or religions and people who think of human equality. tolerance versus intolerance, leftist versus rightwing, this gap is going trough Israeli as well as trough many Muslim societies.
about a palestinian state: Israel is surrounded by Arab states, yet they prove to be more of a problem to Israel when they are occupied(palestine, libanon) than when they are not occupied. (the others+Libanon since 2 years), which is normal of course, when they are free of occupation they have no more reason to fight.
about deterrance: that is right, but with nuclear weapons you can do nothing against terrorism and the fight of an entire people against occupation. Besides you should try to make friends in the region, the Israeli superiority will not last for ever, and when you cretae too many ennemies they will unite one day to destroy you. A peace-treaty is a more efficient and long-lasting way to stop violence than weapons, because it is not sure at all how long Israel will remain military superior (it is not even today if you count iran and pakistan with the Arab states) . By the way it will boost Israeli economy, many investors don't want to invest in a country that is cronically unstable and at war and doesn't has and trade with its neighbours.

L@mplighterM

01-31-2002, 02:24 PM

Quote from takeo:

"And talking about DNA, appearances DOES influence DNA"

What utter nonsense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NewsGuy

01-31-2002, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by takeo
A peace-treaty is a more efficient and long-lasting way to stop violence than weapons...

For more than 50 years Israel has been trying to have peace with its neighbors.

Do we need to mention yet again that there were several peace offers made to Palestinians (backed by the EU, the US, Russia, etc.) which would have resulted in a second Palestinian state, and that they rejected peace repeatedly?

I'm not so sure that peace is a concept that can work with the Palestinians based on their dismal track record of terrorism and Jihad.

Sadly, true peace may not be possible between Israel and Arafatistan.

L@mplighterM

01-31-2002, 03:59 PM

Peace with a demon will never happen.

raven

01-31-2002, 04:16 PM

Hope you all wont mind if I mention something that has been gettin on my NERVES for years.

I come from the US. And in the US the word "neighbor" conjures up people talking to each other accross the back fence or inviting each other over for a Bar B Que, going to Football games together or wives shopping together ...things like that. Friends of some kind and on some level.

Do you think that ANY of the Arab Countries close to Israel can ever been even labeled any kind of "neighbor"? NEVER. They dont have the slightest understanding of the word. They never intend now or at any time to be any kind of neighbor. I wish the h-ll everyone, including the Israeli officials would stop using that word when applied to the Arab Countries in that area. Gives a complete unrealistic impression.

-----------------------------

TakeO...by all means lets not let science and facts get in the way of what you want. Cant have that!

takeo

01-31-2002, 08:03 PM

Raven and lomplighter, why do i even bother answering your utter nonsences? Your extremism is so exaggerated that you are more anti-propaganda than propaganda for the israeli cause.
Raven, your DNA-story and Creta-story are so incredible and over the edge that it could be used by anti-israeli propaganda to show that "you can't talk with nutcases and fascists", also the love-declarations of Lomplighter to established fascists as Le Pen and his raw racist hatred don't need much comment.
And again: people who look like Africans or Arabs will not have the same DNA as people with nordic looks, that is pretty obvious, isn't it? Identical twins have the same looks and the same DNA, so looks are one of the tools to mesure DNA. Besides didn't i told you that all the khasars converted to jewish religion (and probably many others as well during 2000 years) mixed with jews, and khasars certainly didn't have the same DNA as people who left Israel, but anyway, does it matter who lived there 2000 years ago, except for history?
Newsguy has a more sophisticated and elaborated opinion, the diplomatic face of right-wing Israel, which makes it more dangerous and interesting.
About peace instead of war: you start again about the fact that the Palestinians refused the offer of 2000. well, this is true because this plan had some unacceptable consequnces for the palestinians(accepting settlements, no solutions for the refugees) , but after some months, even during the new intifadeh, new negociations began about the points that weren't resolved in camp david because the barak-government retreated from its earlier point that talking about the unsettled questions was out of the question. after the election of sharon everything stopped and violence escalated to a point of no return.
well, palestinians have the right to refuse any offer israel makes, as long as the offer of Israel doesn't meet the un-declarations they have the right not to accept. In Oslo many things were not mentioned, with the result that palestinians got almost nothing in return for peace, and several unwilling governments could build more settlements, etc. Peace has to come from two sides, and it is not impossible, it will be possible if Israel is ready to give back the occupied territories, accept an independant palestine and talk about the refugee question, so that at least some of the refugees can return to their ancestral lands. Such a deal would be endorsed by a majority of the palestinians and by the international community, it would mean total peace for Israel (and IF the palestinians would attack Israel again,which is very unlikely, than you are right Israel would have the right to strike back and pals would have very few defenders, not even me)
So far israel was never ready to accept the un-resolutions, nowadays accepted by the arabs but not by Israel. (some decades ago it was the inverse)
Yes Arabs are neighbours, not good neighbours (because you are no good neighbour to them) but anyway neighbours, unless you evict them or consider them not to be human, which wouldn't surprise me in the case of lomplighter or raven. (don't you have any theory that prooves that Palestinians come from Saturnus?)

raven

02-01-2002, 05:31 AM

We have a problem. A problem for the entire world. We have on our hands a significant group of a Billion and a Half people, uneducated, really racist (theres been no discussion of racism in the Arab World-- its rapant) and violent, with a screw loose. What is the West and all other peoples that want Freedom going to do about these people?

Listen to this person. Not only is this person appararantly uneducated in science, ( no concept of DNA science for example) you can see Nazi type racism peep thru. I never thought Id say anything was worse than Germany, but I believe the situation is worse now. Same ideology, but with a Billion or so people ready to act on this philosophy. We havent yet faced up to the implications of this, each country trying to be "politically correct". Islam knows this and is playing it for all it is worth. Every minute we let this go on and deny that we are in big trouble, and identify and define the real problem...helps this humungous group.

takeo

02-01-2002, 07:59 AM

Where in my post did you racism and fascism?
perhaps in the part where i condamned DNA to be legitimate basis of human selection who can live and who can't live???

raven

02-01-2002, 10:44 AM

DNA testing will show IF you lied about who you are, and therefore lied about actually living in an area for any significant time...then if caught in that BIG LIE, then you do NOT have the right to take over someone's land filled with people that can PROVE thru DNA that they are indeed who they say they are and remain that way and ARE the origional inhabitants-- the only origional peoples of that time that are left. Everybody that was there thousands of years ago gave up, gave in, blended in, but WE DIDNT. We ARE still here. Despite what you and others tried so hard to do thru the millenium.

So sorry. I cant just make a story up that, Im orgionally Sweedish, I always lived in Sweeden and that therefore I have a right to part of that country for my own...or the same in say....China...or the same in say the US....or anywhere. The DNA testing would show that this isnt true.

This Pal story is nothing but a made up current story... (late 50's)from beginning to end. DNA will show this. Pack your bags for Crete and Greece or...half of Jordan. ( lots of intermarriage with peoples from Jordan...so you can have THAT COUNTRY) The little Puppet of the US...the Jordian "King" wont like that. (course he isnt origionally Jordaian either...from Saudi Arabian family...kicked out of Saudi Arabia) His Dad and Grandad didnt like when Pals tried to steal their country and let you know it. Very little talk about that. Almost like it didnt happen. Wonder why such a blackout on that subject.

Try going to school. Try learning... other than learning only to get knowledge to blow up the "infidel". Get out of the "coffee houses" that are so popular with Islamic Men.

L@mplighterM

02-01-2002, 11:04 AM

Let me see now!!! One day you're against Sharon the next you're for him. You're an Arab posing as a Jew running around in a Burka. You've studied the major religions. This is difficult to take in.

Now you've become a DNA scientist specializing in DNA sequencing. Perhaps now you have discovered what comes first "The apple or the Arabs".

Your reasoning is totally illogical and has no scientific foundation. You’ve got it backwards.

takeo

02-01-2002, 05:58 PM

lomplighter and raven, you are so funny!!!
I asked you a billion of times that you should give any proove that palestinians came from "creta", untill now you didn't.
And if you really want a dNA-analysis, ok, go on, i'm sure that the palestinians who stayed in the area are closer to the original Jews than those who went all over the world and mixed with all people around the world( which made us a quite interesting and devellopped people, but not as original as the palestinians, which doesn't matter at all).
but as i told you a million times before, it doesn't really matter which DNA you have, nobody in Sweden will be asked to proove his DNA to show that he is a real swede of pure Germanic ascendance(in that case jews and Gypsies would have to leave Sweden). If his family lived in Sweden that is more than enough prove. as sweden is a democratic western country, not a fascist country. DNA testing would also w-proove that the current inhabitants of greece are closer to the original inhabitants of Turkey than the current Turks. You are really blind if you can't see that such devellopment is pure racism and fascism.

L@mplighterM

02-01-2002, 06:24 PM

I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about takeo you seem to be somewhat mixed up lately.

I’ve never mentioned DNA analysis in regards to any specific group of people.

You haven't asked me dick and even if you did I wouldn't jump for an Arab. I don't take orders. If you want somone to take your order go to a restaurant.

takeo

02-02-2002, 08:19 AM

you didn't raven did

L@mplighterM

02-02-2002, 08:27 AM

Hallelujah Praise the Lord that' twice you admitted to being mistaken in a week.

raven

02-02-2002, 10:06 AM

Here it is again. BY RAVEN. The so called "Palistinian" people have declared that they deserve their own country in the Middle East cause......they are the ORIGIONAL people that lived there for 2000 or now...3 or 4Thousand years... THATS THE REASON we should destory Israel and give that land to them. One teensy weensy problem. They ARE NOT the Origional People of the area. DNA testing PROVES that todays Jews are the same people that lived in that area, where Israel is, for some 3-4 Thousand years. DNA testing will also prove that there is no distinct Palistinian people but merely recent invaders from the area of Greece and Crete that intermingled with Jordanians etc...HELLOOOO...JORDAN might be claimed with some kind of authenticity by the so called Pals. Further, there is NO distinct Palistinian language, no distinct Palistinian Culture, no proof in archeology that the Palistinians ever existed in ancient times -- they are merely a constucted "minority" that was put in place for Public Relations purposes. It looked really bad for the One and a Half BILLION Arabs to be going after their 27th or so Country and going after the miniscule population of Jews. The claim to another's proven land is-- and has always been--- falacious.

takeo

02-02-2002, 10:29 AM

Your post is so unscientific.
First one can never proove the autenticity of a people by "DNA-testing", it would be the precedent of massive etnic cleansing of people who are not of pure blood in the whole of the world.
Second there aren't one and a half million Arabs, but less than half a billion.
Thirth your theory that Pals came from Creta has never been prooven, and has never been scientifically researched, however historians have found Arabic scripts in Palestine since 8th century, and proove that the people who lived there before the islamic invasion already spoke a kind of Arabic language called Arameic, a language already spoken in the time of Christ (and most of its people turned to christianity, some of the Christian minority in palestine are still the remains of that time).
there is no certainty about the early middle age but no doubt since the Islamic invasion: since than a majority of people in that region spoke arabic and were Muslim and develloped an own culture, a mix of the Arab invadors and the original people(whoever that may be). this stayed so untill 1949, this has been researched over and over again.
fourth: it doesn't matter who lived there 2000 or 3000 years ago, what matters is who lived there since two or three generations to have the right to live somewhere. This is everywhere so and applies as well for the Jewish Americans who came to the US in the 19th or early 20th century.

raven

02-02-2002, 10:46 AM

OK ..the criteria for forming a New and Separate Country is "living in that country for 200 or so years" is it????

So...Jews lived in Spain for 900 years...I want a piece of Spain. Lived in Eastern Europe for more than 900 years...Want a piece of that. Lived in the New World for 400 or so years...want a piece of that...in the US, in Mexico, in Cental America, in the Islands...lived in Medina...YES...MEDINA...want it...want a piece of it. Lived in Iraq, in Iran, EGYPT...want a lot of that area.....How LONG? have we lived in FRANCE???? Pretty long. Longer than the so called Palistinians have lived in Jordan... Well...never mind France...but ENGLAND...we want a piece of England. Been living there for 800 or so years. So many places, so many potential future countries, separate ...for JUST US....

Sorry...there are a million and a half BILLION people of Islam. They want yet ANOTHER country and are brutilizing a mere few million, already brutilized Jews. Arent you ever so proud of yourself? The odds are sooo fair.

takeo

02-02-2002, 10:55 AM

Muslims are not a people, nor are Christians or Jews.
And Jews lived in a lot of countries around the world, which we are proove of, but yet they don't live nowhere as a majority, so can't claim this land. they live since some generations in israel as a majority, so they can claim that land (but still allow people from other etnic origin who lived there since generations to return)
If you can proove that your parents and grand-parents have lived in France, you will be able to live there.
in the occupied territories the palestinians are the majority, so these have to receive their own state.

watcher

02-03-2002, 12:39 AM

There is a difference between occupants of a land and owners of the land... Territories of Israel are indeed being occupied by "palestinians" as if such a label should remain in and on Israel.

"palestinians" have their own lands, their own peoples to return to than to keep bothering Israel for land they merely occupied when Israel was renamed "palestine" a short while by the occupying romans at the time.

Are the romans still around? Then why should the name "palestinians" still exist? Israel never ceased to exist and there is only one tiny piece of land in the world known as Israel consistantly throughout history even though it was renamed "palestine" by the romans for the short while. Yet Israel graciously allowed these so named "palestinians" remain in Israel despite all the bloodthirsty hateful uprisings from many "palestinian" squatters...

Why should Israel be expected to succumb to terrorism? How many other countries stand for such actions against them? If the terrorist actions cannot be eliminated then these people can leave Israel to return to their own people, to their own homelands leaving only the peaceable to remain... The name "palestine" and "palestinians" can rest in it's place in history with the name that created them... The Romans.

takeo

02-03-2002, 05:58 AM

"a short while by the occupying romans at the time. "
come on man...2000 years isn't a short while!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And Israel used terrorism as well to establish to state of Israel in the 40's. If it wants no more terrorism Israel should give what belongs to them, that is what every other normal state would do. Israel could still exist, so would the Palestinians (and Jordan isn't a palestinian country, it is the country they were forced to fled to). If israel claims the land for itself by using force (as it did in 1948 and again in 1967) than it shouldn't be surprised if it is confronted with violence.

NewsGuy

02-03-2002, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by watcher
Why should Israel be expected to succumb to terrorism? How many other countries stand for such actions against them?

No other country would be expected to under constant Islamic terrorist threat.

The only reason that the world expects Israel to keep on sacrificing its citizens its is because Israel is a small country with a tiny economy and not too much political influence, so countries like those in the EU feel free to bully Israel to submit to terrorism.

There is one standard in this world for strong countries and a completely different standard for countries with weak economies like Israel.

Negev

02-03-2002, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by watcher
Yet Israel graciously allowed these so named "palestinians" remain in Israel despite all the bloodthirsty hateful uprisings from many "palestinian" squatters

even the arab countries knew what to do when arafart and his terrorists tried to have an uprising. in jordan (the real palestine) they had black september when 20,000 palis were eliminated.

in egypt they threw then out in the gaza sewers.

in lebanon the christian arabs did the sabra abd shatila number on the blood thirsty palestinians after a decade of civil war.

in iraq saddam knew what t do with the islamic iranian uprising. an entire city flattened.

in syria they took care of the islamic uprising by rolling in the tank and helicopters and blasting the hell out of the other extremists.

in all these cases this is how arabs "deal" with their islamic uprisings. what did the rest of the world say? squat.

israel should take a small lesson in this area only from the people most familiar with islamic extremists; the arabs themselves.

takeo

02-03-2002, 05:06 PM

There is a difference between Islamic extremists and the Palestinian people.
The only reason why terrorism against Israel is more accepted than for example against the US is because is Israel is occupying the Westbank and gaza. If the US would occupy Cuba or Mexico i'm sure the EU and the rest of the world wouldn't have the same reaction if 11th september would have been conducted by mexicans or Cubans.
And the EU don't want israel to succumb to terror, it wants Israel to comply with the international EU-resolutions, which were made long before Hamas or Jihad were created. As long as it doesn't it shouldn't be surprised that the world doesn't consider terrrorism against Israel the same as terrorism against a country that isn't oppressing an entire people.
Jordan isn't a palestinian country. palestinians come, as their name indicates, from palestine, which has since centuries been limited from the Jordan river to the mediterranean sea.

watcher

02-04-2002, 03:58 AM

You said, "Jordan isn't a palestinian country. palestinians come, as their name indicates, from palestine, which has since centuries been limited from the Jordan river to the mediterranean sea. "

Afraid to admit Where that name "palestine" came from? I'm not saying all "palestinians" are from Jordan but the fact is Israel comes from as the name indicates Israel. Afraid to admit "palestinians" are squatters occupying the soil of Israel?

Yes 2000 years is a long time to be squatters on foreign soil so when the label "palestine" was finally lifted off Israel except the areas still occupied by these so named "palestinians" perhaps they do feel they have reason to rebel at the generosity of Israel who still allow these strangers to occupy their land... Then again there's no excuse for such attrocities against Israel!

Their own homelands are so large they have no reason to murder for the tiny land of Israel, To harbor such hatred to commit terrorist acts against innocent civilians, to wish for the total destruction of the rightful homeowners is horrific.

L@mplighterM

02-04-2002, 06:26 AM

Stop reading your Arab books takeo with their twisted historical facts.
Just wondering if 1+1=2 in Palestinian Schools or does mathematical logic not exist there????
What color is your burka???

It sounds like you're being picked on because you're a Muslim.

There you go again if that and if this.

USA was ready to engage in a war against Russia and Cuba in the 1960's. So don't go crying because you're picked on because of 9/11.

PALESTINIANS snuck into the area from other countries and that's all there is to it. Where was your glorious leader Arafat born????
Jerusalem! Put him in a jail there.

takeo

02-04-2002, 02:59 PM

Again, people residing in a country for more than 2000 years aren't "squatters". People who think so are insane.
the hatred against israel will continue as long as the occupation continues, Israel has brought hatred upon itself by its acts towards the Palestinians since 1949.

"Stop reading your Arab books takeo with their twisted historical facts.
Just wondering if 1+1=2 in Palestinian Schools or does mathematical logic not exist there???? "

It seems that in the school you went history and logics were incorporated in the subject "zionist indoctrination".

NewsGuy

02-04-2002, 03:38 PM

Quick a request that everyone please refrain from posting racist comments and stay a bit closer on topic.

NewsGuy

02-04-2002, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by takeo
There is a difference between Islamic extremists and the Palestinian people.
The only reason why terrorism against Israel is more accepted than for example against the US is because is Israel is occupying the Westbank and gaza.

...

Jordan isn't a palestinian country. palestinians come, as their name indicates, from palestine, which has since centuries been limited from the Jordan river to the mediterranean sea.

This sounds to me like more excuses to justify Islamic terrorism.
Firstly, Israel is not occupying any land. It is being savagely attacked by the same Islamic terrorists that attacked the US and needs to prevent the entry of more Islamic mass murderers into its country.

And, yes, Jordan is the first Palestinian state. With 70% of the population being Palestinians, I don't see how you can argue otherwise.

takeo

02-04-2002, 03:59 PM

I didn't post any racist comments on this board...

"This sounds to me like more excuses to justify Islamic terrorism.
Firstly, Israel is not occupying any land. It is being savagely attacked by the same Islamic terrorists that attacked the US and needs to prevent the entry of more Islamic mass murderers into its country."

It is not an excuse, it is a consequence. There are no excuses for terrorism, as there are no excuses for occupation and offend the UN-resolutions.
Israel is illegitimately occupying the westbank, Gaza and Eastern jerusalem, according to the UN-resolutions and according to all countries except Israel. It is not attacked by international Islamic mass-murderers based in afghanistan, but by both Islamic, Atheist and Christian palestinians who fight for the freedom of their land, by using both legimimate self-defense against the occupying force and illegitimate violence against civilians. Israel has declared war upon the palestinians and their Arab neighbours in 1967 and this war is still going on.

raven

02-05-2002, 03:51 PM

My goodness: No matter how many times you tell this person..that science proves that there is no distinct Palistinian People or Culture or Language...that there is nothing in the Ground found to substantiate that anyone calling themselves Palistinians were in residence, as a majority, with an actual Country of any kind-- 2000 years ago, it passes completely out of his mind. Watch the quick switch from PALISTINIANS which possibly were there and a tad bit more numerous just a few hundred years ago to the Generic Arabs or Cannonites. First they are Pals and then they are Arabs that have been there for 2000 years. Which is it? Which claim do you want to stick with?

As a matter of fact, the more numerous group, the generic Arabs..had no such separate Culture there in the area either. It was only a trading pass thru for them. Everytime they murdured us and chased us out, we came back to an empty, desolate place. They had their OWN Countries, well documented, with their own archeological proof, with their own artifacts, language, art, customs etc...Egypt, Babylon, etc. Later there were the more modern countries. Israel never meant anything to them. If it DID, why was it always abandoned? They only want it cause WE want it. Simple as that. They only want it cause they think that the whole area should be occupied by only ARABS. Bunch of racists and flat out antisemites.

raven

02-06-2002, 10:24 AM

Oh TakeO. When and if America decides that ANY country or territory or person is ANY kind of threat to it, America takes care of it. Look at Graneada, the side they didnt like in Central America, Noriega (ooo it was real stupid of him to wave that machete around-knew it was the end for him when he did that). When and if Cuba starts up again, America will slap it down. Doing it in Columbia right now. Walking right in there and telling Columbian Citizens what they can and can not grow. Their product is deemed a threat to America and America will not allow it.

GB did the very same. They decided that the takeover of that stupid island off of Argentia was a threat to their Sovernity. So they went down to this piss-a-- little place, with an entire armada and fought for it. It was rediculous but the POINT was a challange to GB's sovernity. They would NOT allow that.

A real Country defines a real threat and takes care of it. And so will we.

L@mplighterM

02-06-2002, 11:45 AM

And that's the way it should be Raven.

takeo

02-06-2002, 02:29 PM

The difference in, raven, that GB and the US are (or were) superpowers, and their victims (Nicaragua, panama, Cuba, argentina, etc.) little isolated thirth world-countries, while Israel is just a country of 6 million inhabitants. In your logic, the strongest will win, justice or no justice (you took the example of Nicaragua, Grenada, etc which are clear cases of US-imperialism). Well, if that is your logic, Israel will loose, it it is very isolated in the region, has made nothing but ennemies(some of them stronger than israel) and depends completely upon american goodwill to save the *** of israel.

About the right of the palestinians to exist in Palestine, it is just so obvious that you should just read ANY history book of the area between the middle-ages and 1948. or do you believe that nobody lived there since the jews left?

just the first site i found (from stanford university, clearly not a pro-arab site, on the contrary).
http://www.stanford.edu/class/e297c/war_peace/peace/hrene.html

takeo

02-06-2002, 02:53 PM

All history books will tell you the same: after the Jewish kingdom was destroyed the people who lived there converted to Christianity (it is not sure who they were, maybe remaining jews, maybe people who immigrated from other regions, or people who were there before and during the jews (Kanaates and philistines, however according to some historians those two peoples became jewish before the romans destroyed the jewish kingdom), probably they were a mix of people from different origins). They spoke Arameic, what might indicate that they were mostly jews who converted. They were the palestinians in the 8th century most Palestinians converted to islam and adopted Arab as a alnguage and mixed with the Arab invadors. later on there were new encounters with Mamalouk Turks, who also mixed in the population, and some crusaders who remained in the area and also mixed. this is the palestinian people and they stayed there as a majority untill 1948.