A Confucian solution

[Yi, Tianxia]

A Confucian Solution

I am a Confucian, an American Confucian. To others, my solution might be naive and idealistic. But I believe this is the most simple and fundamental solution.

1. Turn hatred into love
The root of the conflicts between Israelis and Palestinians is obviously hatred. The conflicts will continue if the hatred remains. The most important thing then is to change the minds of the people, not only a few political leaders. Let love prevail. I do not think love was taught only by Confucius. It is the essence of all religions. I have a dream. One day, the attacks and the revenges come to an end and the Israelis and Palestinians treat each other as brothers and sisters. As a Confucian saint said, "Try to be harmonious with others, you are creating many friends; try to confront against others, you are creating many enemies." "All the peoples of the four oceans are brothers."

To our Confucians, killing is not human nature. You may believe your religion and your value is superior to theirs. In the eyes of an outsider, the differences between the two peoples are much smaller than those between Confucians and Buddhists. Since we can co-exist, your chance should be better.

2. Be United, Not Separated.
I do not think a Palestinian state is a good idea.
First, the negotiation is an impasse. Neither side will give up Jerusalem.
Second, it will be very painful for people to leave the homes they built.
Third, the two hostile states will continue to fight against each other.
We Confucians prefers union to separation. Separation leads to hatred and wars. In modern history, the worst example was the separation of Pakistan from India. In nature, it was an attempt to avoid the conflicts between Hindus and Muslims, the two largest religious group of one nation. The result has been disastrous. There have been several wars, let alone the current tension. The Israelis and Palestinians should be united and establish a union of Israel and Palestine. Different religious beliefs and ethnic groups should not be hinders for people to live together. The United States of American is a good example. Try to think, if the white, the black, and the native Americans were separated and set up their own nations, what would have been happened. From this aspect, the Jewish settlements in areas with greater Palestinian population will be a contribution to the union. In the union, the Israelis and the Palestinians should enjoy the same rights. People then will live in real peace, not the false peace protected (often unsuccessfully) by heavily armed peace keepers. And this union will set up a valuable example for the world.
By the way, the real solution to the Kashmir conflict is the reunion of India and Pakistan.

[takeo]

Hi tianxia,

This are sweet dreams.

[L@mplighterM]

Arabs do not make good neighbors because they don’t teach their children to love their neighbors.

The fact that they don’t teach their children kindness and respect is sad.

I would like nothing better than to see Muslims burn the Koran and take up a peaceful religion like yours.

I’m sure it makes Jews in the world very sad when they have to retaliate.

[McSceptic]

Confucianism is paternalistic, feudalistic nonsense.

I hate to rain on your parade, but the only reason Pakistan and India were ever joined together in the first place was because their rulers were out-thought, out-fought and out-bought by the British foreign devils. Their union wasn't the result of transcendental sweetness, but the application of the bayonet and the overdraft.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Yi, Tianxia
A Confucian Solution

I am a Confucian, an American Confucian. To others, my solution might be naive and idealistic. But I believe this is the most simple and fundamental solution.

...

The most important thing then is to change the minds of the people, not only a few political leaders. Let love prevail. I do not think love was taught only by Confucius. It is the essence of all religions. I have a dream. One day, the attacks and the revenges come to an end and the Israelis and Palestinians treat each other as brothers and sisters.

...

I do not think a Palestinian state is a good idea.
First, the negotiation is an impasse. Neither side will give up Jerusalem.
Second, it will be very painful for people to leave the homes they built.
Third, the two hostile states will continue to fight against each other.

Hi,

First, let me say that I find it very refreshing to read a kind, peaceful post in the Peace Think Tank section, which is designed for discussing peaceful solutions.

Like others in this forum, I too am guilty of getting caught up with turning to violent solutions out of frustration with the ongoing killing, and do not give peaceful solutions enough thought.

In response to your post, I would make these points:

1. You are correct in saying that love between neighbors is a pan-religious concept. In Judaism, the concept of "Love thy neighbor as yourself" is held in highest regard. Likewise, even Islam teaches similar concepts in theory.

On the other hand, in Judaism we also have the concept of "he who comes to kill you, precede him and kill him first." And so, when there is absolutely no other option, Jews respond with violence as a means of self-defense and survival. (of course, I understand this is the claim of the Arabs, too).

Israelis have sought peace and co-existence with the Arabs since the beginning of time, but the reality is that there will be not much love at all between most Jews and Arabs, at least not in this generation. Maybe in the next, I hope.

It is not just a Middle East problem. All over the world Muslims have a problem co-existing with their neighbors. In South Africa, in the US, in the UK, in the Philippines, in China, and in any other place where there is a large population of Muslims. Even among the Palestinians there was a huge brawl between Arabs and Christians this week, with death resulting and the burning down of Christian-owned stores and homes in Ramallah.

This is why I think that first Muslims need to overcome the issues that cause the violence in their society, like poverty, illiteracy, lack of municipal services and public corruption. Only then can they start to live like civilized people and will receive proper treatement in return. I hope this happens soon.

2. So far as you're not thinking that a Palestinian state is a good idea, you should know that many Israelis feel the same way, both on the extreme left and the extreme right of Israeli politics.

I personally believe that a second Palestinian state (Jordan being the first) is a necessary solution to achieve a state of non-war. I would like to see a transfer of population to separate between the people who hate one another.

Just like to stop 2 wrestlers from fighting, you need to first untangle their arms and legs from each other, so too in the case of Israel and the Palestinians. Later, after peace is achieved, I think both people should be entitled to buy homes in each other's country and live together in harmony, as you said.

I like you vision very much. It is an ideal that is very desirable at the right time.

[takeo]

It is desirable at any time.
And illiteracy, poverty, etc. are no consequence of Islam, they are a consequence of socio-economical situation, which in the case of the occupied territories is quite bad(no matter if they are Christians or Muslim). But in many asian, african and latin-american countries people are even poorer than in most arab states.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
But in many asian, african and latin-american countries people are even poorer than in most arab states.

Yes, that's right. In many third-world countries the economies are as bad, if not worse.

Yet the push for mass murder of neighbors has only been seen in Muslim countries and in one or two African countries. How do you explain that?

[takeo]

Well, in countries that are faced with the same problems as the palestinians and Israel there is a lot MORE violence and the liberation struggle went a lot bloodier.
Look at Congo, occupied by Ruanda(3 millions of death so far), Eastern timor, occupied by Indonesia, what happened in Indochina against tthe French and US-troops, the colonial wars against Portugal in Mocambique and Angola, the ungoing war in sri Lanka between singalese and Tamil, the wars in rhodesia and namibia, etc. all of them no Islam involved (except in Indonesia but that had the same role as israel today) and yet very bloody.

[Negev]

Originally posted by takeo
all of them no Islam involved (except in Indonesia but that had the same role as israel today) and yet very bloody.

there might be some nation that is just as barbaric and prone to violence as islamic extremists but newsguy's right on the money. everywhere there is a large population of muslims there is terrorism and mass murder. you can't deny that.

[takeo]

There isn't in Soviet Central Asia, there isn't in Morocco, Tunisia, Lybia, Iran, Gulf states, Turkey(good Muslim ally of israel by the way), Bangladesh, senegal, mauritania, etc.
Muslims are not more or less civilised than other thirth world nations.
However one generalisation is true: everywhere where there is oppression, there is war!

[Negev]

Originally posted by takeo
There isn't in Soviet Central Asia, there isn't in Morocco, Tunisia, Lybia, Iran, Gulf states, Turkey(good Muslim ally of israel by the way), Bangladesh, senegal, mauritania, etc.
Muslims are not more or less civilised than other thirth world nations.

heh.

the russians have chechnya with plenty of islamic extremist violence including a big al qaeda presence.

morocco had its share of french problems and still does have an extremism problem. it had to ban the islamic movement.

tunisia as you know has brutally cracked down on islamic extremists so it won't become another algeria. in 1993 the uk gave tunisia's islamic leader assylum after he fled when the secular authorities found out that he was plotting to assisinate the president in good muslim tradition.

iran is the hotbed of worldwide islamic terrorism which came to be after a massacre that some say is in the 100s of thousands of shah supporters.

the gulf states are still threatened by iraq. let's not forget the muslim vs. muslim atrocities that saddam did there. the only thing saving the rest of those states' asses is the american presence there.

i am runnig out of time but turkey is a country that has cracked down on islamic terror and on their muslim brothers the kurds also in the best of muslim tradition.

you should really study your islamic countries better. they all have blood filling their streets. it's a cultural and religious tradition since mohammed himself butchered thousands.

[L@mplighterM]

Chinese and Korean Family Law is heavily based on Confusian principles and reinfoces predudices against women.

As a matter of fact baby girls are abandoned in caves, tied in sacks and trown into the river, others are dumped in garbage bins, poisonned or packed in boxes and left to die in fields.

This is well documented by the media. It sure dosen't sound like a great society to me.

[EZwriter]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Chinese and Korean Family Law is heavily based on Confusian principles and reinfoces predudices against women.

Lampy,

Who cares?

What does this have to do with Israel?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Yi, Tianxia
A Confucian Solution

It was offered as a solution by Yi and I responded to the solution.

Who cares???? I do.

What does it have to do with Israel???? As I said Yi offered a solution to Israels problems and I was just pointing out that I didn't feel it was a soulution.

[takeo]

Muslims aren't any more violent than Jews, only extremists are violent, not only in Tunisia religious extremists tried to kill their president, but as well in Israel (and they succeeded).
In Turkey this conflict has nothing to do was Islam, it has to do with oppression of the Kurds (etnic cleansing, the same as in palestine, that's why Israel and Turkey are such good friends).
There isn't an armed conflict in Iran and nobody is killed for political reasons in iran(maybe during the ismaic uprising yes), you can find Jewish synagogues and churches in Iran that are used currently, people can express their dissatisfaction with th government. Of course it isn't a democracy and still fundamentalist, but not the barbaric country it is described in the israeli press(and Iran isn't an arabic country, they are very angry if you say this). I guess all this Arab/muslim bashing has a targetted goal: to consider them animals and animals don't need to have human rights!
And what happens in China is of no importance, it is not because you are fascists that all Jews are bad, this is the way you think about other religions and cultures.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
There isn't an armed conflict in Iran and nobody is killed for political reasons in iran(maybe during the ismaic uprising yes)...

Maybe?? Maybe the Ayatollah slaughtered all the Shah's people??

I think that as an Islamist apologist you lost tracks of the facts here.

The only reason there is no longer an armed conflict internally in Iran is that there is barely no one who opposes the Islamic regime that is left alive.

If they would pile up all the bodies of the victims of the Iranian Islamic regime (all killed in the name of Allah's great Jihad), it would make a pile even higher than the heap of Islamic lies and disniformation I've seen reported lately in the Arab press.

[takeo]

i mean nobody is killed CURRENTLY. i am not in favour of the regime, indeed ayatollah komeiny killed a lot of opposers, mostly communists and former Shah-loyals, but this has stopped since Khatami took power. When you go to Iran you will notice that it is a quite modern country, and its people (not the regime) think more moderate than most Israeli, i also met Jews in Iran who worked for the government in high positions.
I want to remind you that the "anti-semitic, Islamic court of belgium" has also opened a file against former president Rafsanjani for killing political opposers.

[L@mplighterM]

Being a pacifist it’s my sincere wish that Israel or the US takes out any nuclear reactors in Iran before they become operational. Anyways these Confucian and Buddhist monks are pacifists like me.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
I want to remind you that the "anti-semitic, Islamic court of belgium" has also opened a file against former president Rafsanjani for killing political opposers.

What has become of that case?

[takeo]

he has been officially made a suspect, and investigation is going on, which did harm relations between Belgium and Iran.

[McSceptic]

There are still political killings going on in Iran. Mostly journalists, intellectuals and other liberal opinion formers. The Iranian government did acquire a suspect linked to the intelligence services (how embarassing!). But he very obligingly drank a bottle of hair dye while in custody.

Confucians aren't pacifists.

Where has Tianxia gone? Is peace worth the suppression of thought and expression as in Confucian societies?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
he has been officially made a suspect, and investigation is going on, which did harm relations between Belgium and Iran.

Officially made a suspect? Does that mean basically that there has been zero progress towards conviction? Have the brave Belgians fled from the case after being threatened severely by Iran?

The reaosn I'm asking is that in Sharon's case, the progress has been lightning fast, with several Belgian ministers running to Lebanon to try to do some photo ops to help their reelection campaigns. Have any ministers from Belgium visited Iran yet?

[takeo]

No, because they are not wellcome in Iran (as in Israel).
And the case against Sharon will be slowed down by the murder against the most important witness (and one of the accused) (by the Mossad most likely, which shows that Israel feels not very comfortable about this investigation).
The case against Rafstanjani is already in a more advanced stage than the one against Sharon. He has already been offically indicted, while the case against Sharon is still under investigation, which means the official indictment of Sharon has not yet been decided.