Arafat the terrorist

[takeo]

here some thoughts of Arafat in "the new York times":
The Palestinians want peace with Israel and will enforce this peace upon all its citizens if Israel retreats to the borders of 1967 and if it comes to a conclusion about the refugees, in other words if Israel is willing to recognise the UN-resolutions.
He wants to negociate with any Israeli leader, if if it is a war-criminal. But the negociations should be negociations between two equal partners and not between the master and the slave.
Arafat condams any attack against Israeli or Palestinian civilians.
israel has done everything possible to support the palestinian terrorist groups by continued repression and violence, when there is a less violent period, they start again by killing palestinian leaders in terrorist attacks, as they did today. israel don't want to negociate with the elected palestinian leader because it doesn't want to comply to the un-resolutions. Yet when Israel changes its opinion the Palestinians are ready to negociate.
The palestinians have suffered 40 years and more of oppression, still they are ready to compromise, they are ready to sacrifice 78% of their original homeland but they want the remaining 22% back.
Arafat is very disillusionated in Oslo, israel gained peace but gave very little. Israel violated the oslo-agreements by building more settlements and expanding its military potential in the occupied territories. By 1999 the idependant palestinian state should be a fact and most settlements and military posts should have been abandoned yet nothing of all this happened under the leadership of Netanyahu. Next time he will sign a peace-treaty it should be more clearer, with precize commitments to what will happen and when(both sides have to be obliged to commit to them, when is written no more settlements, than some internatonal observers have to controll this, and as well controll that extremist palestinians are really disarming or persecuted). That's why he couldn't agree with the Barak-proposal. He also wants international observers from western countries to make sure israel will hold to its word and to protect both Israel and the Palestinians. (of course that is the nightmare of Sharon in that case he will loose souvereignity over the occupied territories).
The Palestinian state will have to be equal with Israel and will not allow any Israeli military on its territory, nor israeli military aircrafts in its air-space.
If israel agrees to this principles, than it is wellcome to sign a new peace-treaty.
arafat strongly condams terrorism on civilians and said he did everyting within his power to stop terrorism, but he said as well that unless the real reason for terrorism, the ongoing occupation hasn't finished, a large part of palestinian civilisation won't stop terrorism and resist to the pa's attempts to stop it.
He insisted that an unconditional halt to terrorism should be included in any peace-treaty and is as important for Israel as an end to the occupation is for Palestinians.

It is clear that his ideas and that of the left-wing in Israel are the same, but this ideas are opposed by extremists on both sides who want to continue the war untill the other side is fysically destroyed, which of course is a fascist utopia.

[takeo]

Arafat finally said that while UN-resolutions calling for the liberation of the east-timor people were finally achieved, the UN-resolutions calling for the liberation of Palestine will be observed too, and the sooner it happens, the less palestinian and Israeli blood will be spoild.

[NewsGuy]

That was your personal interpretation and paraphrasing of Arafat's babbling.

We have all heard Arafat's English-lanuage propaganda, which has no resemblence to his calls for Jihad in Arabic and that he's ready to be "martyred" any time now.

In any event, Arafat talks non-stop droning on and on, but never lifts a finger to stop terrorism. In fact, he opens entire factories to manufacture missiles, grenades and high-power explosives to mass murder Jews. His radio and TV stations broadcast incetement to mass murder Jews.

So, I personally am not convinced that Arafat has some nice words to say in English to the Americans, but his deeds never match his propaganda.

This is why the US cabinet members said this weekend that Arafat's letter "was not helpful" and that Arafat needs instead to "make 100% effort to eliminate terrorism." I think he never will.

[takeo]

he has done nothing to encourage terrorism, and all parties that commit acts against civilians have broken their ties with arafat and the PA. The problem is since Sharon began destroying its infrastructure the PA lost the even fragile controll it had since Oslo on the territories under its controll (let's not forget that many terrorists come from regions still under israeli or "joint" controll).
The palestinian police, even when it tried, as in december, can't possible take controll over Hamas, Jihad PFLP or other armed groups that were created in the last months.
the fact is that Arafat can't do anything unless Sharon orders to stop his ongoing war against the palestinians and is ready to resume talks. Every israeli action will sooner or later provoke a new reaction and will further undermine the position of the pa and the moderate palestinians among the palestinian public opinion. if israel decides to retreat its army from the pa-territories and engage in peace-talks, it will mean arafat can restore controll, reign in terror and a peace-plan can be possible within months. The White House is not helping peace by unconditionally supporting Israel and the EU has already condamned the us-attitude. in fact it has been prooven that the current policy of Sharon-Bush will lead nowhere.

[takeo]

And the offical radio of the PA, nor arafat have incited against Israel, in every speech (like the one in december) Arafat called upon "the peace of the brave", and said that he will never accept israeli presence in the occupyed territories and that Jerusalem should be divided (what also the UN say), but also that peace with Israel is necessary if they comply to this demands.
Arafat and the radio condamned every suicide attack as a new VICTORY OF SHARON. With martyrship he means not the suicide-killers but the martyrship in the original sence, that people who suffered should not loose their mind and continue their beliefs in peace and justice. He explained this in an interview with BBC in 1998.

[L@mplighterM]

takeo

*LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL* It dosn't work anymore *GGGG* Maybe the stupid EU. Do you really believe that people should believe your brothers garbage???????

[JustSad]

LamplighterM,

Thank you for your most intelligent reaction. I am so grateful you whished to share the greatness of your mind with us.
Seldom did i read a more objective and balanced expose.

I will nominate you for the Nobel Price.
Can you give me your full name, address and date of birth?
I will be so happy to post my recommendation to the Nobel Committee.

Yours is the one and only true spirit! This is the way to take care of despicable idiots like Takeo.
It is a waste of time to listen to his crap. Don't! There is only one Truth and that is Lamplighters Truth!
Let's all get our UZI's and free this piece of anti-semitic dogshit from his miserable existense!

No, wait, i know a better solution! Let's nuke the ****ing French alltogether.
Maybe this piece of dogbreath has some terrorist friends that otherwise escape.
You just can not be certain enough these days, can you?
The bastard might even have children that are genetically poisoned with anti-semitism. Newsguy allready said it: all europeans are basically jew-haters. Solve the entire problem at once! Nuke them all!
Let;s take care of the Belgiums, the Germans, The Dutch, the Austrians, the Spanians and the rest too! Actually the world would a lot better of without all those muslim-terrorists. So let's kill all the monsters in the countries between Marocco and Iran too. Sooner or later they will be a pain in the *** anyway.

Let's not forget the Russians and all those dangerous countries in Asia either.

Safety allways comes first and a world with just Israel, the US and Tahiti will be much safer place!

Stand up LamplighterM! This glorious task to ensure a safe world for our children and grandchildren is ours. We will have to break some eggs, but our children will inherit our glorious omelet one day.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
The palestinian police, even when it tried, as in december, can't possible take controll over Hamas, Jihad PFLP or other armed groups that were created in the last months.

...

if israel decides to retreat its army from the pa-territories and engage in peace-talks, it will mean arafat can restore controll, reign in terror and a peace-plan can be possible within months...

1. Of course the PA can eliminate hamas, Jihad, and the restmof the rag-tag terrorists. Arafat just happens to have 60,000 armed and professionally trained troops at his disposal, while the terrorists number fewer than 4500 combined. There are 2 reasons why he does not stop terrorism: a. It is being done at his orders as the official Palestinian strategy to get further concessions from Israel. b. There is wide support among the Palestinian people for acts of terrorism against Israelis.


2. Israel has indeed withdrawn its forces several times from Palestinian-occupied territories, only to be hit again and again by Arab terrorists, forcing Israel to seal off the terror sources.

Sharon has even given Arafat the option of withdrawal from any Arab cities where there is calm. That was done in several Arab-occupied cities, but it is the nature of the Palestinian people to destroy any attempt at a peaceful resolution by sending suicide bombers to mass murder Israelis at shopping malls and pizza stores.

[takeo]

"1. Of course the PA can eliminate hamas, Jihad, and the restmof the rag-tag terrorists. Arafat just happens to have 60,000 armed and professionally trained troops at his disposal, while the terrorists number fewer than 4500 combined. There are 2 reasons why he does not stop terrorism: a. It is being done at his orders as the official Palestinian strategy to get further concessions from Israel. b. There is wide support among the Palestinian people for acts of terrorism against Israelis. "

only b is right, a is total nonsence. Arafat DOESN'T has 60000 armed troops at his disposal, never had, maybe at most something like 6000 but after the Israeli destruction nothing much is left and the PA can't controll the situation at all. When it tried to reign in some Hamas-leaders angry, armed mobs of people came to protect them and the palestinian police had to risk a massacre to continue carry on the arrests. And after their buildings and friends being destroyed by Israel they won't do this, not even at the order of Arafat. the last time he could do so (and did so) was before the Israeli destroyed all facilities of the PA.


"2. Israel has indeed withdrawn its forces several times from Palestinian-occupied territories, only to be hit again and again by Arab terrorists, forcing Israel to seal off the terror sources.
Sharon has even given Arafat the option of withdrawal from any Arab cities where there is calm. That was done in several Arab-occupied cities, but it is the nature of the Palestinian people to destroy any attempt at a peaceful resolution by sending suicide bombers to mass murder Israelis at shopping malls and pizza stores."

bullshit, since the election of Sharon and the reoccupation of the territories the suicide attacks have multiplied, not stopped. The reoccupation of the land that was given to the PA's controll has prooven to be a disaster for israel. No military action can stop suicide attackers, only peace and justice can stop popular support for them and the desperation that leads people to do such desperate acts.
And when there is calm, Sharon decides to conduct a new "targetted attack" or destroy another PA-office, to be sure that peace won't make a chance. Even in cities were people don't resist they get punished, that's the "collective sentence" of Sharon.
Sad, you forgot the leftist, liberal Americans and human right-groups, all of them critical to israel and thus anti-semites , they need to be exterminated too of course.

[L@mplighterM]

Wow Justsad you sound as violent as takeo are you a Palestinian as well?
The time for Arafat’s tall tales being bought in the US has come to an end.

I don’t think anyone here has talked about nuking EU countries as a matter of fact no one has talked about nuking anyone.

Self- preservation is another matter and that is a fundamental right afforded to anyone.
I don’t need any money from any Nobel Prize Fund thank you for the offer though. If you want to nominate anyone make it Sharon he deserves it.

Perhaps you could answer one question though. Do Palestinians put toothpaste in their ears? There’s this thing about not being able to hear 7 days without terrorist activities.

[takeo]

actually JustSad is an abbreviation for JustSaddamhoussein, Lomplighter, he is indeed an Arab!

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
There are 2 reasons why he does not stop terrorism: a. It is being done at his orders as the official Palestinian strategy to get further concessions from Israel. b. There is wide support among the Palestinian people for acts of terrorism against Israelis. "

only b is right, a is total nonsence. Arafat DOESN'T has 60000 armed troops at his disposal, never had, maybe at most something like 6000...

Actually, your statistics are total nonesense. Yuo keep on saying how there is never proof. You have never seen any proof ever to anything claimed on this forum. I don't know what Arab-apologists consider to be proof, but here are some facts:

According to the September 28, 1995, Interim Agreement (“Oslo 2 ”), the PA may deploy no more than 24,000 policemen in Judea, Samaria and Gaza (Annex I, Article IV (3)). One source for the PA figure is the 1998 budget to the Palestinian Legislative Council presented by PA Finance Minister Muhammad Nashashibi on March 31, 1998, which included outlays for the salaries of 40,000 Palestinian policemen (Associated Press, March 31, 1998).

According to IDF figures, as of the end of 2000, that number has risen to approximately 60,000 troops. You may doubt the IDF, but an Arab supporter such as yourself woudn't dare deny the Palestinian own finance minister, now would you?

But please tell us where did you get the 6,000 figure? Which lie-infested Arab source sold that number that you are now trying to pass on as fact?

[NewsGuy]

And getting back to the original topic of the thread, Arafat the terrorist rat, here's where his base of support comes from.

The following are excerpts from ongoing population polls published by the Palestinians themselves:

Support for Military Operations Against Israeli Targets

"Respondents were asked whether they supported the resumption of military operations against Israeli targets as a suitable response during the current political conditions, or whether they rejected it and found it harmful to Palestinian national interests. Military operations include shooting, car bombs, and mortar attacks, but do not include suicide attacks. Sixty-eight percent of respondents supported military operations, 26% rejected them, and 6% did not know/ did not provide an answer."

Support for suicide operations

Respondents were also asked whether they supported suicide bombing operations as a suitable response in the current political conditions, or whether they opposed them and found them harmful to Palestinian national interests. Sixty-four percent of Palestinians supported suicide operations.

* * *

Read for yourself the results of this January 2002 poll (http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/pop/02/jan/pop7.htm) to better understand who we have business with.

[takeo]

"One source for the PA figure is the 1998 budget to the Palestinian Legislative Council presented by PA Finance Minister Muhammad Nashashibi on March 31, 1998, which included outlays for the salaries of 40,000 Palestinian policemen (Associated Press, March 31, 1998). "

Can you please give me the source of this, where i can find it? because i read completely different figures, and not on the PA-website but in "time magazine" of some months ago dedicated to the middle-east conflict.

and about the support for Arafat: i guess your polls are correct, more and more palestinians approove terrorist acts against Israel, as it was only a minority one year ago. It means the peacefull approach of Arafat is loosing ground in the palestinian public opinion, as I told you, and support for radicals is growing with every new Israeli collective punishment, reprisal and useless destruction (like the airport, radio-station, destruction of palestinian houses, etc.) .
The last months a new fenomenon has appeared, due to the desperation and the lack of any peacefull prospect Sharon has to offer: female and non-religious suicide-killers. This is very bad news for peace, for Arafat AND for Israel.

[cerulean]

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/02/20/News/News.43729.html
According to the above article, Arafat's editorial in the NY Times was apparently drafted by the former US consul in Jerusalem, Edward Abingdon. Abingdon's lobby firm has also provided assistance.

In respect to the letter to Powell about the Karine-A ship, European Union special Middle East envoy Miguel Moratinos and US Consul General in Jerusalem Ronald Schlicher assisted Arafat in drafting it.

It's always been a problem in US politics that someone could use a political or government position to gain expertise in a topic area and access to powerful people, and then quit the job and turn around the next day as a highly-paid lobbyist lobbying these same people. (Ross Perot had a great line about it that I cannot recall.)

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by cerulean
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/02/20/News/News.43729.html
According to the above article, Arafat's editorial in the NY Times was apparently drafted by the former US consul in Jerusalem, Edward Abingdon. Abingdon's lobby firm has also provided assistance.

In respect to the letter to Powell about the Karine-A ship, European Union special Middle East envoy Miguel Moratinos and US Consul General in Jerusalem Ronald Schlicher assisted Arafat in drafting it.

Ultimately, look at all the effort from all over the world not to stop Arab terrorism, but to try to "fix" the public relations image of arch-terrorist Arafat, i.e., create an illusion to deceive others about the true source of Arab terrorism, which is the Arabs themselves.

It will take more than the European axis of anti-semitism and an American PR lackie to save Arafat's image.

[takeo]

Both the EU and the US are more smart than Israel and now that Arafat is the only popular Palestinian leader that wants negociation with Israel. that's by the way why Sharon hasn't killed him yet, only his guards, his buildings and his material, in an effort to destroy any prospect of peace(as peace is more dangerous for this government and for likud than war, the prospect of negociation and offering the Pals an own state will certainly divide the government AND the likud-party) .

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
(as peace is more dangerous for this government and for likud than war, the prospect of negociation and offering the Pals an own state will certainly divide the government AND the likud-party) .

I think you misunderstand Israeli politics, especially centrist and right wing politics.

Reaching a peace agreement would actually guarantee the Likud success and overwhelming popular support for many years to come. Just like Menachem Begin, for example.

When it comes to wanting peace and an end to war, there is total agreement among all Israel's mainstream parties.

Not only that, but all mainstream parties are prepared to make painful concessions to achieve peace. True, "painful" varies among the parties, but a least there is an equal willingness to compromise and sacrifice on major issues to gain peace.

[takeo]

but the compromise would have to go at least as far as camp david for the palestinians to accept it, and further as well on some specific issues. many members of the government are already opposed to the IDEA of a palestinian state...

[watcher]

Originally posted by takeo
but the compromise would have to go at least as far as camp david for the palestinians to accept it, and further as well on some specific issues. many members of the government are already opposed to the IDEA of a palestinian state...

There is absolutely NO PROBLEM with recognizing a "palestinian" state! But in their OWN lands! Israel has been pushed around long enough! Ever since the land of Israel has been renamed "palestine" and Israel the people been pushed country to country, pogrom, after pogrom, all attempts to remove Israel failed! Now Israel is back home the arabs under the name "palestine" want to steal Israel and murder the people of Israel. They failed in the wars they started against Israel but they're trying this new tactic of terrorism and sympathy under this name "palestine"... Let's see how much longer this hatred and terrorism will let these bloodthirsty murderers last... Hopefully peace will come soon and the wrongdoers will come to justice.

[takeo]

Palestine is where the palestinians lived for 2000 years, a region between the mediterranean and the jordan, they gave large parts of their country to Israel yet they want to keep westbank and Gaza and Eastern Jerusalem wich greedy Israel took in 1967 after it started a war. they are supported in this demand by the entire world.

[watcher]

Originally posted by takeo
Palestine is where the palestinians lived for 2000 years, a region between the mediterranean and the jordan, they gave large parts of their country to Israel yet they want to keep westbank and Gaza and Eastern Jerusalem wich greedy Israel took in 1967 after it started a war. they are supported in this demand by the entire world.

You neglect to mention that they live in Israel... a region between mediterranean and jordan. Israel gave large parts of their country to the "palestine" label yet greedy "palestine wants more land of Israel if not all of Israel plus to murder the rightful landowners hence the murderous plots on innocent lives in Israel. Whoever heard of Yerushalim as the capital of "palestine"??? Who all in this world know for a fact that Yerushalim was the capital of Israel? Which is the real owners then Israel or "palestine"?

[takeo]

1000 years ago Istanbul was the capital of Greece, do you think Greece has the right to conquer istanbul back?
Who ever heard of Michigan 2000 years ago? History is long and diverse, nobody can claim a country for eternity.

[watcher]

Speaking of Greece it was consumed in the ottoman empire... Yet after all that time the families lived and established themselves there, they more quietly moved back home when Greece returned as opposed to the problems in Israel when these people "palestinians" as they like to call themselves employ bloodthirsty measures to try to steal the land from Israel.

[takeo]

"Speaking of Greece it was consumed in the ottoman empire... Yet after all that time the families lived and established themselves there, they more quietly moved back home when Greece returned as opposed to the problems in Israel when these people "palestinians" as they like to call themselves employ bloodthirsty measures to try to steal the land from Israel."

Istanbul is still a Turkish city and Greeks continued to live there as a small minority, despite the fact that it was founded as a Greek capital some 1600 years ago.

[watcher]

That's no response to the fact that the withdrawl from greece was more peaceable than the present violent occupation within Israel, no reason to steal land from Israel.

[takeo]

"the withdrawl from greece was more peaceable than the present violent occupation within Israel"

Really??? You should urgently read some history about the Greek/Turkish conflict...
Also in what is now Greece the Greek remained the majority, but in Istanbul and Asia minor was the Greek homeland in the middle-ages, yet now Turks are living there, and Greek have accepted this.

[takeo]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,632646,00.html

[takeo]

One thing is for sure, israeli had 0% of the land in the Westbank and gaza, untill they expropriated more than half after the 1967 occupation.
but as well in the land that became Israel most lands were possessed by palestinians before the etnic cleansing of 1949: (which might be the real reason why Israel is so stubbornly opposed to solving the refugee-problem, because nowadays there are more Jews living in Israel than palestinian refugees, but the last ones could claim their land back if they can proove they were the legitimate owners before 1949)


"
By 1930, all the land capable of being cultivated by the indigeneous Palestinians with the resources available to them was already under cultivation (Frances Newton, Fifty Years in Palestine, Coldharbor, 1940, p. 253). Sir John Hope Simpson undertook a comprehensive study of Palestinian agricultural potential in 1930. He concluded that

"it has emerged quite definitely that there is at the present time and with the present methods of Arab cultivation no margin of land available for agricultural settlements by new immigrants"

(Palestine, Report on immigration, land settlement and development, Sir John Hope Simpson, cmnd 3686, His Majesty's Stationery Office, 1930).

By the end of the British Mandate in 1947, the total land area under cultivation by Palestinian farmers (excluding citrus) was 5,484,700 dunums, whereas the area cultivated by Jewish farmers was only 425,450 dunums. The expansion of the cultivated area offered in the Israeli repertoire is grossly exaggerated. The figures have been doctored by including, as reclaimed land, the huge areas of farmland left behind by the Palestinian refugees expelled by Israel in 1948.

Subcommittee II of the Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestinian Question, established in September 1947 issued a report in November 1947 which stated under item 63:

"The village statistics for 1945 prepared by the Palestine administration and showing the position as at 1 April 1945 furnish interesting data regarding land ownership in Palestine. The total Arab land ownership is given in dunums (4 dunums equals approximately 1 acre), as being 12,574,774, as against a total Jewish ownership of 1,491,699. [...] The following figures are of particular interest:
CATEGORY OF CROPS OWNERSHIP

Arabs Jews (in dunums)

Citrus 135,368 139,728
Bananas 1,843 1,079
Plantations 1,052,222 94,167
Taxable cereals (categories 9-13) 5,653,346 869,109
Taxable cereals (categories 14-15) 823,046 67,839
Item 64 of that same report stated:
"The above statistics of population and of land ownership prove conclusively that the Arabs constitute a majority of the population of the proposed Jewish State, and own the bulk of the land"
(Source: Doc. C74 UNSCOP Report to the UNGA, Documents on Palestine, vol. 1, pp. 165, PASSIA, December 1997)."

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,632646,00.html

ok, this is an opinion piece by a biased journalist. That;s fine, because opinion pieces are supposed to be biased.

With all the Arab money floating around Europe, I am not really surprised that a journalist is writing a piece that is designed to express the Arab disinformation campaign.

Here just some of the more ridiculous statements:

"hence the American reluctance (so far) to make very much of the incident."

Wrong. the US nearly broke off all contacts with arch-terrorist Arafat as a result of his Karine A attempt at causing a full-scale heavy weapons war.

"The most puzzling question in the whole affair is what Iran hoped to achieve by supplying weapons to the Palestinian Authority (or elements within the Authority) "

Gee, that's so incredibly puzzling. Let's see: Iran states clearly that it wants to remove the "Zionist cancer" from the Middle East and steadily supplies its Hizbullah missile monkeys in Lebanon with enough heavy weapons to cause WW III. Hmmmm... It's just so puzzling what Iran hopes to achieve by supplying Arafat with more of the same. :rolleyes:

[takeo]

sorry i posted this article in the wrong treat!