May It Not Happen Again!

[abu afak]

May It Not Happen Again!
Jan Willem van der Hoeven

Saddam Hussein grew up in the shadow of a giant portrait that hung on the wall of his father's house, a portrait of a man his father adored above every other political leader. It was the face of Adolph Hitler! Writing in Inside Asia, John Gunther said: "The greatest contemporary hero in the Arab world is Hitler." Even Anwar Sadat, a man deemed by many in the West to be a moderate Arab leader, as a young man wrote the following words to the leader of the Third Reich:

"My dear Hitler, I congratulate you from the bottom of my heart. Even if you appear to have been defeated, in reality you are the victor. You succeeded in creating dissensions between Churchill, the old man, and his allies, the Sons of Satan. Germany will win because her existence is necessary to preserve the world balance. Germany will be reborn in spite of the Western and Eastern powers. There will be no peace unless Germany once again becomes what she was."

Anis Mansour, editor of the Egyptian magazine October and a Sadat confidant who accompanied the Egyptian leader to Jerusalem wrote: "The world is now aware of the fact that Hitler was right, and that the cremation ovens were the appropriate means of punishing [the Jews]."

Hitler's book, Mein Kampf, is still required reading in various Arab capitals and universities, and is widely distributed by others. And as Shmuel Katz writes in The Hollow Peace: "The Arab attitude is pointedly and incisively expressed in modern Arabic literature, which is chock-full of unbridled hatred of Israel, of Zionism and of the Jewish people. The idea of the destruction of Israel is expressed in hundreds of books published on the subject of the dispute itself, and anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist teaching has been incorporated in school text-books, even, improbably enough, in arithmetic books."

The only reason that the Arabs have not yet done to the Israeli Jews what Hitler did to their forefathers in Europe is that they have thus far lacked the military means and weapons of mass destruction which were at Hitler's disposal. Had there not been an Israeli Army to defend the remnant of European Jewry that immigrated to Israel, the Arabs would have gladly fulfilled Hitler's dream a long time ago by finishing off those Jews the Nazi megalomaniac had left alive.

This deeply entrenched hatred of the Jews and love for Hitler and the Nazis surfaced during the time of one of the first Palestinian leaders, the Grand Mufti Haj Amin el Husseini, during the 1930s. As Hitler's guest in Germany, the Mufti said on Berlin radio: "Kill the Jews--kill them with your hands, kill them with your teeth--this is well pleasing to Allah!"

No, contrary to popular belief, the crux of the Middle East problem has never been the Palestinian Arab problem. It has been and still is the Palestinian Jewish problem. It was this problem that had to be solved by the Arabs. They have used the Palestinian Arabs as their front and excuse to achieve their Hitler-like goal: the extinction of a sovereign Jewish nation in their Muslim midst. .."""

Ex From and read the rest at http://www.afsi.org/OUTPOST/2001MAR/mar5.htm

[jcsd]

That article seems a little suspect to me. Saddam Husseins father, depending on who you believed died before he was born or deserted him before he was a year old. Infact, Saddam would probably not be alive today if it wasn't for the kindness of an Iraqi Jewish family (now living in Israel), who helped his mother through the difficult period just before he was born, when she tried to kill herself and also attempted to abort him. Also Saddam Husseins personal hero is Josef Stalin (not any better than Hitler I suppose).

[MichaelC]

.....Saddam would probably not be alive today if it wasn't for the kindness of an Iraqi Jewish family (now living in Israel), who helped his mother through the difficult period just before he was born, when she tried to kill herself and also attempted to abort him.

There must be a special place in hell reserved for those guys!!


Also Saddam Husseins personal hero is Josef Stalin (not any better than Hitler I suppose).
Duh.....ya think!?

[Micah]

Originally posted by MichaelC
There must be a special place in hell reserved for those guys!!


I find this extremely offensive. How were they suppose to be psychic and know that the baby they would save would be an evil person?

Hashem doesn't reward kindness with Gehinem. You'd do well to remember that.

[jcsd]

Micah, I think Micheal C is being ironic, as rather than actually making a point, he prefers to use innuendo :rolleyes: .

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by Micah
I find this extremely offensive. How were they suppose to be psychic and know that the baby they would save would be an evil person?

Hashem doesn't reward kindness with Gehinem. You'd do well to remember that.

Lighten up Micah.

You think it wouldn't be better that savage was dead this minute? You really think it wouldn't have been better for him to have left before he got here?

By the way, You speaking for G-d now?

Wow!

[Mediocrates]

Misplaced pronouns I think - who is the 'they' that deserve to be in hell? I think we have some confusion about that.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Misplaced pronouns I think - who is the 'they' that deserve to be in hell? I think we have some confusion about that.

jcsd came the closest. I was being ironic, though I do not consider the irony to have been accomplished by innuendo.

I did not think a worn adage like," there must be a place reserved in hell for........" was open to misinterpretation. If I have offended anyone's deeply held religious sensibilities, I apologize. Where I come from, this is a common expression not open to much misunderstanding.

The couple who preserved Saddam's life thereby assuring the world of plenty of trouble are obviously not to blame for his subsequent stature as a threat to millions, but I certainly do wonder at the irony of it.

I still maintain that speaking for the Divine in my general direction is a bit of a stretch.

And, speaking of confusion sown by the use of unfamiliar words, phrases, idioms, etc, what does Gehinem mean?

[Mediocrates]

Gehenna - one name given for what could loosely be called Jewish hell though it's a pretty different place than Milton's "Pandemonium".

[Agnosthiest]

hey guys, check out this interesting debate between arabs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nUI3TUdFCk

Doesnt that confirm the correctness of this translation:

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.


The woman had great points. Like do men always have the better judgement?

[Mediocrates]

I'm guessing they don't sell a lot of guns to women.

[Justcurious]

I'm guessing they don't sell a lot of guns to women.

I wonder what would happen, if a woman came to a car retailer and wanted to buy a car. Laughter or penalty?

[Mediocrates]

I wonder what would happen if you gave them a few million handguns. Probably end this radical nonsense in 60 days.

[Parsi]

Beating one's wife (as opposed to wife beating) is very clearly stated in Quran as part of the process of dealing with the non-obeying wife.

This doesn't mean that Mulisms should beat their wife routinely or that all Muslims are wife-beaters, but Islam does certainly prescribe it if needed.

[Abdul Rahman]

Amazing the number of non-Muslims experts on what the teachings of Islam are.

Keep chanting to yourself that your evil thoughts are true and maybe that will make it so... right?

[Parsi]

Amazing the number of non-Muslims experts on what the teachings of Islam are.

Keep chanting to yourself that your evil thoughts are true and maybe that will make it so... right?


Prove me wrong Abdul Raham. Tell me that Quran does not prescribe hitting the wife if she refuses to obey. You be the expert please.

[Abdul Rahman]

Prove me wrong Abdul Raham. Tell me that Quran does not prescribe hitting the wife if she refuses to obey. You be the expert please.
It does not. I am not an expert and make no claims to be such, what I do is relay authentic teachings from the ulema to the best of my ability.

[Parsi]

It does not. I am not an expert and make no claims to be such, what I do is relay authentic teachings from the ulema to the best of my ability.
How do you know it does not?

But surely you read Quran. Haven't you come across the famous verses?

How could you tell who is and isn't expert when you don't consider yourself knowledgeable/qualified enough to respond to a simple objection?

[andak01]

Prove me wrong Abdul Raham. Tell me that Quran does not prescribe hitting the wife if she refuses to obey. You be the expert please.

Then no. The way you ask the question is like this: Can you be raped for speeding??? Yes or no. Well you could get stopped by a policeman, who could let you go with a warning or write you a ticket. You could start an argument with him and you could end up in jail where you get raped. So I suppose the answer is yes???

In the same sense, I must protect and support my wife as the VERY SAME verse says. The verse doesn't say my wife didn't obey. It says I fear disloyalty or ill-conduct. In the state I live in, you can shoot your wife with another man and the police will often look the other way. Murder is often the way that disloyal wives and husbands end up. So, disloyalty is pretty serious today. But the Quran doesn't allow us men to come home and hit our disloyal wives.

It tells us to admonish them. But that isn't enough. After admonishing, they return to their old ways. Can you beat them? NO! More time has passed and we must refuse our beds. By this time days have passed. Can you beat them? IN SUCH A WAY THAT DOESN'T CONTRADICT THE FIRST PART OF THE VERY SAME VERSE!

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means.

Tell me how to beat my wife WHILE I protect and maintain her. Because that is AFTER ALL OTHER CONDITIONS are met, the type of beating I can administer. The English language fails to provide us with a word to describe such a beating. I will give her that kind of beating the day you find me four modest, pious, honest witnesses to sexual insertion during adultry carried out in a Sharia state. Or how about you show me the man who can treat two wives equally in every respect?

And BTW, when I exceed the bounds of what the Quran allows and I get put in the slammer, I'll say hello to the ten thousand Christian wife beaters I meet there.

[Agnosthiest]

adultry

oh must you always equate "ill-conduct" with adultery? arent you being a bit too extreme? :(

watch the video again and see what is the arab scholar's idea of "ill-conduct".


And BTW, when I exceed the bounds of what the Quran allows and I get put in the slammer, I'll say hello to the ten thousand Christian wife beaters I meet there.

christian wife beaters get thrown in the slammer. In Islam, like in egypt --the electric cord culture, what muslim wife beaters get is social tolerance. thanks to the quran. As such wife beating is much much more serious in the muslim world.

[andak01]

oh must you always equate "ill-conduct" with adultery? arent you being a bit too extreme? :(

The words as translated are "disloyalty or ill-conduct". What does disloyalty in your wife mean to you? Either she's cheating on you or, and I'm not sure this isn't worse, doing something deliberately against your interests. Cheating could be a physical thing that passes, but if she is working to bring you down, you've got a permanent problem that even a marriage conselor is unlikely to resolve.

Even so, the Quran doesn't allow a man to touch her without passing other hurdles. She must be admonished and then continue ill-conduct, the man must refuse his bed and she still continues. By this time days have passed and the man's displeasure has clearly been communicated. And before, during and after, the man must continue to protect and provide for her.

At the point of daraba, the Sunna and fiqh take over and it is further specified what constitutes hitting. The man is confined to use a small three inch by quarter inch tooth stick (miswak) to tap her with. He can't use his fist or his open hand. It can't leave a mark. So ASSUMING all of the above, do you still call that a license to beat??? Tell you what, I'll do that anyday in front of a policeman and tell him I'm beating my wife and see if he takes me in or falls over laughing.

watch the video again and see what is the arab scholar's idea of "ill-conduct".

Yeah, I get all my Islamic "scholarship" from MEMRI! :(

christian wife beaters get thrown in the slammer. In Islam, like in egypt --the electric cord culture, what muslim wife beaters get is social tolerance. thanks to the quran. As such wife beating is much much more serious in the muslim world.

I'd like some proof that wife beating is more tolerated in third world Muslim countries than in Sub-saharan Africa or Eastern Europe or Mexico. The police are so corrupt in those places that the public has to protect themselves from them. The countries don't even pay the policeman's salary and you want them to start up other social programs. Good luck!

[Arjunn]

Andak, what you have in mind is "UNFAITHFUL".

From Webster

Main Entry: dis·loy·al
Pronunciation: (")dis-'loi(-&)l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French desleial, desloial, from des- dis- + leal loyal
: lacking in loyalty; also : showing an absence of allegiance, devotion, obligation, faith, or support <his disloyal refusal to help his friend>

Main Entry: un·faith·ful
Pronunciation: "&n-'fAth-f&l
Function: adjective
: not faithful: a : not adhering to vows, allegiance, or duty : DISLOYAL <an unfaithful friend> b : not faithful to marriage vows <suspected her husband of being unfaithful> c : INACCURATE, UNTRUSTWORTHY <an unfaithful copy of a document>


You really have no basis of interpreting that verse as concerning unfaithfulness. In fact other translations use the words "rebellion", "desertion". Nothing there that is necessarily about cheating.


ofcourse. i know this fact even before the first time you told me about it.


LOL! Beat someone with a toothpick? We have yet to see that in actual practice. Well maybe muslims do use a stick that thick (1/4 inch), but its obviously much much longer. Enough to cause enough pain to dicipline an adult!



How about Turkey?

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engeur440132004


"At least a third and up to a half of all women in the country are estimated to be victims of physical violence within their families. They are hit, raped, and in some cases even killed or forced to commit suicide. Young girls are bartered and forced into early marriage."


Thats what you get when your religion teaches you to treat adult women as intellectually deficient & inferior to men's moral judgments.

You beat me to it Agno:D ; i was about to reply saying that "disloyalty" and"unfaithful" are two different things.

[andak01]

Main Entry: dis·loy·al
Pronunciation: (")dis-'loi(-&)l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French desleial, desloial, from des- dis- + leal loyal
: lacking in loyalty; also : showing an absence of allegiance, devotion, obligation, faith, or support <his disloyal refusal to help his friend>

Main Entry: un·faith·ful
Pronunciation: "&n-'fAth-f&l
Function: adjective
: not faithful: a : not adhering to vows, allegiance, or duty : DISLOYAL <an unfaithful friend> b : not faithful to marriage vows <suspected her husband of being unfaithful> c : INACCURATE, UNTRUSTWORTHY <an unfaithful copy of a document>

You can't define one word without using the other. And we are talking about a translation in the first place!

[Agnosthiest]

You can't define one word without using the other.

So? The point still stands that disloyalty does not equate to unfaithfulness.


And we are talking about a translation in the first place!
and other translations used the words "Rebellion" and "Desertion", things that are not necessarily about unfaithfulness.


Anyway can you please show me where in the Hadith it says to use a Miswak to beat a wife? Thanks. :)

[Abdul Rahman]

You smart alecs can say what you like about this but it doesn't make you right. Just keep feeding your evil whisperings and then maybe it will become true just because you believe it.

There are four basic types of people, the fourth are those who don't know and think they do... avoid them like the plague because they are fools. [to paraphrase a famous scholar of the past]

[Agnosthiest]

You smart alecs can say what you like about this but it doesn't make you right. Just keep feeding your evil whisperings and then maybe it will become true just because you believe it.

Well you can say all your excuses and that does not change the reality of severe oppression of women in the muslim world. Isnt that what happens when you put these islamic ideas into practice:

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Quotations_from_the_Quran_and_the_Hadith_Women


Its your beliefs, its your reality.

Dont underestimate what non-muslims can learn about Islam.

[andak01]

So? The point still stands that disloyalty does not equate to unfaithfulness.

and other translations used the words "Rebellion" and "Desertion", things that are not necessarily about unfaithfulness.

Desertion? If she deserted you, then denying her the bed would be rather redundant! ROFL.

Anyway can you please show me where in the Hadith it says to use a Miswak to beat a wife? Thanks. :)

Striking is only permissible, according to traditional authorities, in cases where the husband has already admonished the wife and abandoned her in bed without any change in the wife’s behavior. Under these circumstances, he may strike her. There are limitations placed on how he may do so, including that he must hit her in a way that is “non-violent” (“ghayr mubarrih”) and must not break bones, leave bruises, or cause blood to flow. Additionally, based on the Prophet Muhammad’s order in another context that one should never hit another Muslim’s face, he must not strike her face. A minority place additional limits, such as that the striking must be done with a miswak (a twig used for a toothbrush) a folded cloth, or a blade of grass.

A number of contemporary authors writing from moderate positions, such as Jamal Badawi, have stressed these limitations, arguing that the striking referred to in the Qur’an is a “more of a symbolic gesture than a punitive one.” These commentators frequently note that of the Muslim men who strike their wives, few do so after admonition and a period of sleeping apart, nor do they follow the limits that exegetes have imposed, such as not striking the wife’s face. Thus, such authors argue, one cannot blame the existence of “true violence” among Muslims on Q. 4:34.

Yet for others, this explanation is insufficient. Rendering the husband’s right to strike his wife merely symbolic leaves open the question of why it is permitted at all. If verbal appeals and a cooling off period of sexual separation both fail, it seems unreasonable to expect that “a gentle tap” “may save the marriage,” as Badawi also states. Thus, some have argued that we must understand the verse differently. It has been proposed that daraba in this context does not mean strike, but rather “separate” or even “have sex with” (one of the term’s metaphorical meanings). Others have suggested that rather than permission for husbands to strike their wives, the verse refers to punishment that can be imposed by the public authorities for certain transgressions.


http://www.brandeis.edu/projects/fse/Pages/adifficultverse2.html

Mit dieser Übersetzung erübrigt sich auch die von Muslimen oft empfohlene Alternative, das „Schlagen mit einem Miswak“ oder ähnliche symbolische Handlungen.

Roughly ~ With this translation the following alternative is suggested, to tap with a miswak or other symbolic item.

http://www.huda.de/zeitschrift/aktuelleausgaben/50121195ea071e505.html

[Parsi]

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means.

Like I said before "pick and choose".

This is Ali Yusef's translation of the verse 4:34, which CONTINUES with Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).

Notice the bits in brackets. These people just can't help it.

And BTW, when I exceed the bounds of what the Quran allows and I get put in the slammer, I'll say hello to the ten thousand Christian wife beaters I meet there....

Going by the same logic when a suicide bomber "exceeds the bounds of what the Quran allows and they put in the slammer they'll say hello to ten thousand Muslim killers who among ordinary civilians".

Andak01,
There is HUGE difference between personality-motivated crimes and those authorised by one's religions. Those 10 thousand Christians don't hit their wife to follow their religion.

A broader study of Quran can show you clearly that the position of women in Islam is questionable, but I don't want to get into that.

As I said, it would be wrong to conclude that Muslims are wife beaters or that Islam encourages wife beating. I simply wanted to demonstrate one of the many hidden teachings of Islam. I respect Muslims by default, but I do question Islamic teachings.

[Agnosthiest]

Desertion? If she deserted you, then denying her the bed would be rather redundant! ROFL.

"those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them"

isnt one permanent (desertion) and the other one temporary ("leave them alone"). The change of address would also be considered.

but anyway what does that have to do with your interpreation about 'cheating'?


http://www.brandeis.edu/projects/fse/Pages/adifficultverse2.html

Nothing in there supports your original idea that: "the Sunna and fiqh take over and it is further specified what constitutes hitting. The man is confined to use a small three inch by quarter inch tooth stick (miswak) to tap her with".

Is this really in the hadith or what?

[andak01]

A broader study of Quran can show you clearly that the position of women in Islam is questionable, but I don't want to get into that.

No. Please continue. And make sure you ignore the place of women in Orthodox Judaism and in the Vatican and in Hinduism and in Mormonism.

As I said, it would be wrong to conclude that Muslims are wife beaters or that Islam encourages wife beating. I simply wanted to demonstrate one of the many hidden teachings of Islam. I respect Muslims by default, but I do question Islamic teachings.

It isn't hidden at all. The misrepresentation of this verse is publicly available to all non-believers. I'd be surprised if everyone doesn't know about that and our "moon worship".

I expect you to question Islamic teachings even if you were Muslim. As a Muslim, we question because we wish to learn more. As a non-Muslim you may have curiosity or simply a bad preconception that you want to confirm. You will find what you are looking for whatever that is. If you look for evil, you'll find it, if you look for good, you'll find it. If you keep an open mind, you might be surprised.

[Parsi]

No. Please continue. And make sure you ignore the place of women in Orthodox Judaism and in the Vatican and in Hinduism and in Mormonism.
Wrong approach.
First I don't have enough knowledge of those religions and wouldn't want to pretend so.

Secondly, two wrongs don't make a right.
Thirdly, Islam claims to be the ultimate (most complete) religion of all. What's the point of a new religion if it's to follow the same power-orientated principle of the older religions.


It isn't hidden at all. The misrepresentation of this verse is publicly available to all non-believers. I'd be surprised if everyone doesn't know about that and our "moon worship"...

It's not the question of misrepresentation, mistranslation, or misinterpretation. Some of the very fundamental teachings of Quran is based on hatred and intolerance and this in itself has been a threat to my life. You may be a nice law-abiding gentleman who believes in civility, but there are those who go by the book and want to dominate the world at any cost.

[bararallu]

Hog wash. A super religious Jewish Woman can spit in her husbands eye, drive away in her own car, get to a civil court void her marriage, eventually force her husband via Rabbinical court to give her a religious divorce if she wants it; she can publically become an atheist or convert to another religion even, if that's what she wants; she can burn her hair net or any clothes she wants and go around in a bikini in her own neighborhood, and get custody of all her children to boot, this is in Jerusalem/Israel.... All of that is LEGAL and do-able, and some in fact do it.

In juxtaposition- lets go across the border to Cairo Egypt or Amman Jordan or any sand dune in Saudi Arabia... and try that with a Muslim woman. Her own brother or father would catch her and put a bullet in her head just not to "disgrace" the family. nice try at moral equivalence though. Israel is a western country with real morals not a shame based society that keeps women in bonds, any woman can get up and leave their traditional life on her terms just like Amish women can, or any nun can, or any other Luddite in the rest of the West can.

[andak01]

Wrong approach.
First I don't have enough knowledge of those religions and wouldn't want to pretend so.

Secondly, two wrongs don't make a right.
Thirdly, Islam claims to be the ultimate (most complete) religion of all. What's the point of a new religion if it's to follow the same power-orientated principle of the older religions.

That's our own claim as adherrents to the faith. Western globalization also claims to be the most complete lifestyle of all. I think it's time for all this absolutism to drop by the wayside. It's killing people everyday.

There is something to be learned in a culture where there is a > 50% divorce rate and where schoolchildren go on shooting sprees, which children are killed for their sneakers and where some tens of thousands women are raped each year. There is something to be learned in a culture where 2000 highschool aged kids are in prison for life without parole, where more people are imprisoned per capita than in any other Western country.

In 2005, there were 191,670 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assaults according to the 2005 National Crime Victimization Survey (http://www.rainn.org/docs/statistics/ncvs_2005.pdf?PHPSESSID=a27b21fd6e219dfb0c03e44d7b d557a6) (PDF, 287KB).

It is this culture, the one that proposes torture and spying as a solution to security that looks down its nose and claims a moral highground against Islam. Laughable.

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html

It's not the question of misrepresentation, mistranslation, or misinterpretation. Some of the very fundamental teachings of Quran is based on hatred and intolerance and this in itself has been a threat to my life. You may be a nice law-abiding gentleman who believes in civility, but there are those who go by the book and want to dominate the world at any cost.

I go by the Book too. There isn't anything in the Quran that permits me to kill innocent women and children to achieve any aim whatsoever. In fact, there is plenty to prohibit it. There isn't a word in the Quran that justifies killing a Jew or anyone else who isn't actively attacking Muslims. There isn't a word in the Quran that justifies disrespect or mistreatment of women. You can take that to the bank. It's a fact.

[Abdul Rahman]

...

Dont underestimate what non-muslims can learn about Islam.
Try this for starters then...

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should not hurt (trouble) his neighbor. And I advise you to take care of the women, for they are created from a rib and the most crooked portion of the rib is its upper part; if you try to straighten it, it will break, and if you leave it, it will remain crooked, so I urge you to take care of the women."

From YOUR link.
But then my contention (and that of the scholars of Islam) is that you can pile up all this decontextualised evidence untill it reaches the moon. Until you are trained to process it properly your conclusions are worthless. So until you start taking your Islamic knowledge from actual Sunni scholars of the four madhabs you actually know nothing about Islam.

...I'd be surprised if everyone doesn't know about that and our "moon worship".
That's right we worship the moon anyone could tell you that.

... You can take that to the bank. It's a fact.
What has that got to do with anything? We don't know anything about our own religion, they know better than we do.

[Abdul Rahman]

.,..
Some of the very fundamental teachings of Quran is based on hatred and intolerance and this in itself has been a threat to my life. You may be a nice law-abiding gentleman who believes in civility, but there are those who go by the book and want to dominate the world at any cost.You have yet to prove the Islamic basis for those actions. Asserting that it has an Islamic basis just because it was done by Muslims really does not stack up. You are essentially calling Andak a guy that picks what he wants from this Deen, which is really quite insulting just so that you can maintain your illusion that Islam is a barbaric and hate filled religion.

You are yet to respond to my contentions from the great scholars of Islam, that every deviant sect uses the sources especially the Qur'an to justify their deviance. Yet they do it in a selective and ignorant way. Show me how the sects that you describe are not doing just that?

[Abdul Rahman]

This is what an isnad (chain) looks like for someones ijaza(license)...

01. Prophet Muhammad (Salla Allah ta'ala alayhi wa sallam)
02. Hazrat Imam Ali bin Abi Talib (Karrama Allah wajhah)
03. Hazrat Sayyid Imam Hussain (Alayihis-salam)
04. Hazrat Imam Sayyid Zain al-Abideen
05. Hazrat Imam Sayyid Muhammad bin Ali al-Baqir
06. Hazrat Imam Sayyid Jafar as-Sadiq
07. Hazrat Imam Sayyid Musa al-Kazim
08. Hazrat Imam Sayyid Ali al-Ridha
09. Hazrat Shaikh Sayyid Maruf al- Karkhi
10. Hazrat Shaikh Sayyid as-Sari as-Saqati
11. Hazrat Shaikh Abul Qasim al-Junaid Baghdadi
12. Hazrat Shaikh Abu Bakr ash-Shibli
13. Hazrat Abdul Wahid at-Tamimi
14. Hazrat Shaikh Abul Faraj at-Tarsusi
15. Hazrat Shaikh Abul Hasan al- Quraishi (Hakkari)
16. Hazrat Abu Said al- Mukharrimi (Makhzumi)
17. Hazrat Sayyiduna Abdul Qadir Jilani
18. Hazrat Sayyid Abd ar-Razzaq
19. Hazrat Sayyid Abu Salih Nasr
20. Hazrat Sayyid Muhi-uddin Nasr
21. Hazrat Sayyid Ali
22. Hazrat Sayyid Musa
23. Hazrat Sayyid Hassan
24. Hazrat Sayyid Ahmad Jilani
25. Hazrat Shaikh Baha-uddeen
26. Hazrat Ibrahim Irji
27. Hazrat Shaikh Bhikari (dont know real name or the anecdote behind his laqab)
28. Hazrat Qazi Zia-uddeen
29. Hazrat Jamal-ul-Aulia
30. Hazrat Sayyid Muhammad Kalpavi
31. Hazrat Sayyid Ahmad
32. Hazrat Shah Fazlullah
33. Hazrat Shah Sayyid Barkatullah
34. Hazrat Sayyid Ale Muhammad
35. Hazrat Sayyid Hamza
36. Hazrat Sayyid Ale Ahmed
37. Hazrat Sayyid Ale Rasul Ahmedi *
38. Hazrat Sayyid Abul Husain Ahmad Nuri
39. Sheikh Ahmad Raza Khan
40. Sheikh Dhia-ud-Deen
41. Sheikh Abdus Salam
42. Sheikh Waqar-ud-Deen
43. Sheikh Ilyas Attar Qadiri (my current sheikh, lives in Karachi and Dubai)

May Allah preserve the current sheikh and bless the souls and raise the ranks of all those preceeding him.

* nephew of sheikh above him, adopted Ahmadi after his uncle/sheikh's name, nothing to do with Ahmadi-ism maadh'Allah, the blessed sheikh passed away 1296 Hijri, the Ghulam Ahmad la3natullahi alaih died 1325 Hijri.

This is for the sheik of one of my friends. Without one of these, anyone who tries to teach anything about Islam from their own knowledge is just leading people astray. So Parsi, your contentions about authority have no basis, since this is a well established system that is virtually impossible to forge. All a believer or interested person needs to do is find out if a person can produce one of these or not.

[Parsi]

Andark01 & Abdul Rahman, I'll come back and respond to your post in about 8 hours time.

[redcake]

In the meantime, that will give you some time to respond to these verses pertaining to women's rights, and the rights of young girls. There is an institutionalized abuse sanctioned by clerics, and there is absolutely no defense for it. So you can fall back on the lamest defense ever, by talking about other religions, or quoting statistics for how depraved American society is, but it doesn't explain why these verses are being used in Muslim communities in Muslim Sharia courts to abuse women and children under the protection of Islam. Two major sects believe in it, and one doesn't. So how can you say it doesn't exist or pretend it's a fabrication by non-believers?


Sunni
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=A&Id=56312&Option=FatwaId
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=A&Id=23672&Option=FatwaId
http://saaid.net/Doat/Najeeb/f122.htm
http://hadith.al-islam.com/display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=7644

Shi'ite
http://www.rafed.net/books/fegh/menhaj3/menhaj1.html
http://www.ansar.org/arabic/radee3ah.htm
http://www.alshirazi.com/compilations/jar/horryat/part7/1.htm
http://www.makaremshirazi.org/books/arabic/resaleh/r26.htm

[Agnosthiest]

Try this for starters then...

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should not hurt (trouble) his neighbor. And I advise you to take care of the women, for they are created from a rib and the most crooked portion of the rib is its upper part; if you try to straighten it, it will break, and if you leave it, it will remain crooked, so I urge you to take care of the women."

From YOUR link.

(wow thats like dealing with the disabled. they are broken "so I urge you to take care of them") :(

And you agree with that. Amazing what religion can do to people. As if Women are more crooked than men. Take a look at prisons, man! Arent there a lot more men than women? From China to Pakistan to Chile. I tell you we guys are more screwed.


But then my contention (and that of the scholars of Islam) is that you can pile up all this decontextualised evidence untill it reaches the moon. Until you are trained to process it properly your conclusions are worthless. So until you start taking your Islamic knowledge from actual Sunni scholars of the four madhabs you actually know nothing about Islam.

You wish.

[andak01]

There is an institutionalized abuse sanctioned by clerics, and there is absolutely no defense for it.

You're absolutely right about that. Which is why I am pleased whenever I hear of Muslim women's rights groups which point out the errors in interpretation by using Islamic scholarship to prevent abuse of women.


So you can fall back on the lamest defense ever, by talking about other religions, or quoting statistics for how depraved American society is, but it doesn't explain why these verses are being used in Muslim communities in Muslim Sharia courts to abuse women and children under the protection of Islam.

For the exact same reason that the Christian church allowed women to be abused for a thousand years.

Two major sects believe in it, and one doesn't. So how can you say it doesn't exist or pretend it's a fabrication by non-believers?

What I can say is that there are loud highly politicized Islamic groups trying to promote an extreme philosophy while at the same time being assisted by the Western media which thrives on their extremism. At the same time, there are Muslim women's rights groups and moderates like Hamsa Yusef who hardly get any press at all.

http://www.karamah.org/home.htm

http://uanews.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects/UANews.woa/6/wa/MainStoryDetails?ArticleID=13562

http://www.islamic.org.uk/womright.html

http://www.feminismeislamic.org/eng/

[Agnosthiest]

It is this culture, the one that proposes torture and spying as a solution to security that looks down its nose and claims a moral highground against Islam. Laughable.

America is a well documented country. So a lot crimes are written down and reported. Heck they even classify forced sex within marriages as rape! And these things get reported too! Sure bloats the figures. So a document country with figures, compared to an undocumented country like Saudi Arabia without figures, that creates the illusion that the former is worst. But is it? Just look at the overall achievements between the two. Look at the rights given to its citizens. The opportunities available to a person. The person's opportunities to reach his/her potential.

Thats what makes the west morally higher than Islam. Thats why muslims love to go here even if they can hardly speak our language. Thats why you prefer to stay here. Right? You will never migrate to a muslim country because Islamic state practices suck.

[Agnosthiest]

What I can say is that there are loud highly politicized Islamic groups trying to promote an extreme philosophy while at the same time being assisted by the Western media which thrives on their extremism. At the same time, there are Muslim women's rights groups and moderates like Hamsa Yusef who hardly get any press at all.

Friend, the Media thrives on anything that is called a "Media Event". For moderates to attract attention they should created their own media event. How? Well maybe if you 'moderates' can gather by the thousands and condemn Saudi Arabia's inhumane practices. We would also love to see you by the thousands condemning the killing of muslim apostates.

What say you?

[andak01]

America is a well documented country. So a lot crimes are written down and reported. Heck they even classify forced sex within marriages as rape! And these things get reported too! Sure bloats the figures. So a document country with figures, compared to an undocumented country like Saudi Arabia without figures, that creates the illusion that the former is worst.

I didn't say Saudi Arabia. However, there are many, many more opportunities for rape to occur in a country where women routinely get drunk in public while wearing skimpy clothing versus a society where women dress modestly, tend to stay at home and are chaparoned whenever they are in public. If Saudi men are indeed committing more rapes, I'd be curious as to how they have an opportunity to do so.


But is it? Just look at the overall achievements between the two. Look at the rights given to its citizens. The opportunities available to a person. The person's opportunities to reach his/her potential.



Thats what makes the west morally higher than Islam.

It makes us morally higher than Ethiopia and the Congo and any other country that doesn't have the economy to afford leisure time. That's why the Romans under Caligula were Romans and the rest of the world were barbarians.

Thats why muslims love to go here even if they can hardly speak our language.

I venture that per capita many more Muslims speak the language than Mexicans. English is a second language in most of the Muslim world. In fact, most of the Muslims I know speak more than two languages.

Thats why you prefer to stay here. Right? You will never migrate to a muslim country because Islamic state practices suck.

I stay here because it's where I was born and where my family is. But in fact I may well retire to a Muslim country. I wouldn't like Saudi Arabia or Iran, but Dubai or Morocco wouldn't bother me a bit. There aren't any Islamic practices that bother me. It's so-called Sharia where the practices are in conflict with Islam that bother me.

[redcake]

Make up your mind Andak:

There isn't a word in the Quran that justifies disrespect or mistreatment of women. You can take that to the bank. It's a fact.

You're absolutely right about that. Which is why I am pleased whenever I hear of Muslim women's rights groups which point out the errors in interpretation by using Islamic scholarship to prevent abuse of women.

Are you sure it's an error of interpretation or just contradictory language which allows an observant Muslim to justify it. Either way, it exists, in the form of a scripture and not just from one or two crazy clerics.

At the moment, today, right now it's pretty clear how POPULARIZED and MAINSTREAM Islamic scriptures are being used for purposes of oppression instead of protecting human rights. By the way, since Christians aren't doing it on a massive instutionalized scale, today, right now, we're left with addressing Islam.....and the fact that the Muslims in this thread have denied the existance of religious inspired abuse towards Islamic women is really problematic and by default makes you part of the problem.

[Agnosthiest]

oops

[andak01]

Make up your mind Andak:

Are you sure it's an error of interpretation or just contradictory language which allows an observant Muslim to justify it. Either way, it exists, in the form of a scripture and not just from one or two crazy clerics.

I am sure that the Quran does not promote wife beating. I would stake this life and the next one on that. Again, you'd have to show me how wife beating can be protective. Show me how someone can be beaten and protected at the same time.

At the moment, today, right now it's pretty clear how POPULARIZED and MAINSTREAM Islamic scriptures are being used for purposes of oppression instead of protecting human rights. By the way, since Christians aren't doing it on a massive instutionalized scale, today, right now, we're left with addressing Islam.....and the fact that the Muslims in this thread have denied the existance of religious inspired abuse towards Islamic women is really problematic and by default makes you part of the problem.

I'm sure. The fact that I have no intention of beating my wife makes me a wife beater too. The fact that I think wife abuse is criminal makes me a criminal.

Redcake, I assure you. My opinion of people who abuse their wives differs not one crumb from your own. They belong behind bars. I've yet to hear of a Muslim using the Quran as a defense for wife beating. I'm quite familiar with your own opinion that, without the Quran and Islam, one fifth of the world would be practically crime free. I'm aware that you believe everything Muslims do, we do because of the Quran, unless, God forbid, we do something good. Then it's just a fluke.

[Agnosthiest]

However, there are many, many more opportunities for rape to occur in a country where women routinely get drunk in public while wearing skimpy clothing versus a society where women dress modestly, tend to stay at home and are chaparoned whenever they are in public. If

There is a little bit of tradeoff there. Women in true democracies are free, and with that freedom comes more rapes. Women in Islamist countries are not free and with that the prevention of rapes, but at what cost? The reduced values of women, honor oppressions, discrimination, higher domestic violence.

So overall where are women happier? Tell me. In Japan or in Pakistan? In America or Turkey?


It makes us morally higher than Ethiopia and the Congo and any other country that doesn't have the economy to afford leisure time. That's why the Romans under Caligula were Romans and the rest of the world were barbarians.

compare the worst with the worst, the best with the best.

Mexico vs Congo.
Philippines vs Indonesia.
Switzerland vs Turkey.
America vs Saudi.
Israel vs Palestine.

Its obvious who always get the upper moralities.


I venture that per capita many more Muslims speak the language than Mexicans. English is a second language in most of the Muslim world. In fact, most of the Muslims I know speak more than two languages.

And why do Muslims love to migrate here? Why bother be ruled by infidels than by muslims?


I stay here because it's where I was born and where my family is. But in fact I may well retire to a Muslim country. I wouldn't like Saudi Arabia or Iran, but Dubai or Morocco wouldn't bother me a bit. There aren't any Islamic practices that bother me. It's so-called Sharia where the practices are in conflict with Islam that bother me.

You stay there because you are comfortable there. Otherwise origin of birth is no good reason to stay in an unjust & unsafe country, not if you can afford to flee along with your family. Face it, America is still way better than Dubai or Morocco.

[Mediocrates]

Did you know that Brazil has no specific laws against domestic violence? About 4 women every minute in Brazil suffer domestic violence including assault, murder and rape? Legally it's considered a minor offense if it results in the victim's hospitalization up to 20 days. It's in practical terms, in Brazil, it's not against the law to murder your wife if she's cheating on you. I just want to point that out. It could be your mother or your sister or your child getting beat up, stabbed, shot and there isn't much in the way of laws to stop it. I really don't want to hear any more about what the Quran does or does not say. No one needs a holy book to beat down the mother of his children.

[Mediocrates]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4465916.stm

Sexual violence in the home. A cross cultural study.

In Africa it's particularly sad. Not only do women get raped, they get AIDS.

[Parsi]

OK, I'm going to focus on a the main topics here:

- Andark01, you're confusing to issues:
1. The crimes and social problems you mentioned are not the results of the teachings of any particular problem. If there were caused by a religious framework, then we could criticise that framework/religion just the same way.

There is a HUGE difference between a man who beats his wife due to behavioural/personal problems and one who's just following his multi-stage religious teachings. The same is true about other crimes or social conducts. I don't know why this is so difficult to distinguish, but I'm finished with part anyway.

2. As I said before the topic of this thread is not suitable. Wife beating (routine) is different to beating one's wife as part of the process of "protecting" her. Please don't twist/replace my words. Again, I believe there are decent Muslim gentlemen who never lay a finger on their wife, but there are also those who do beat up their wife because Islam has authorised them.

3. This is mainly to respond to Abdul Rahman's post asking me to show evidence of Islam's hatred teachings. I'll just mention a couple of verses to illustrate the point, but I can go on forever. Being a victim of Islam's teachings, I've done enough research into the subject. Here we go:

Hatred and intolerance

3: 118-120 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html#003.118)
O you who believe! Take not as (your) bitaanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made clear to you the aayaat (proofs, evidence, verses), if you understand. Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the Scriptures [i.e., you believe in the Tawraat and the Injeel, while they disbelieve in your Book (the Qur’an)]. And when they meet you, they say, ‘We believe.’ But when they are alone, they bite the tips of their fingers at you in rage. Say: ‘Perish in your rage. Certainly Allah knows what is in the breasts (all the secrets).’ If a good befalls you, it grieves them, but some evil overtakes you, they rejoice at it…


005.051 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.051)
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.



009.029 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.029)
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

There's much more of course...

[redcake]

Andak -Please don't take this conversation to a 1st grade level.

I know you're aware of how Shari'a laws are being applied to sanction the abuse, and killing of women, and children, because this forum has made you aware of it.

...and yes, a "good Muslim" lives his life according to the Koran.
...and yes, the basis for oppressive theocratic laws where Arab, and Islamic women are taking this abuse can be found in Islam itself, and yes it's rationalized as righteous manifested through a sort of Islamic "tough love".

...an by the way, it' THEIR interpretation which we are discussing, not the American-Muslim convert's.

I've given you versus....try and refute their existance.

[Agnosthiest]

No one needs a holy book to beat down the mother of his children.

Of course. With or without religion, we men are already violent beasts by nature. But religion does play a role in inhibiting or promoting our very basic human desires, yes?

[serdar]

In Africa it's particularly sad. Not only do women get raped, they get AIDS.
They are cutting women's clitoris in somalia.. religion stuff, you know...
having sexual fan is forbidden for somalian women.

[redcake]

No one needs a holy book to beat down the mother of his children.

No one *needs* a holy book to do anything, but that doesn't void out the sheer fact that a certain people, in a certain region do use a holy book for these purposes purpose.

I'm no less horrified because some other country has managed to one up Muslims.

[Mil]

Posted by Andak:

I didn't say Saudi Arabia. However, there are many, many more opportunities for rape to occur in a country where women routinely get drunk in public while wearing skimpy clothing versus a society where women dress modestly, tend to stay at home and are chaparoned whenever they are in public. If Saudi men are indeed committing more rapes, I'd be curious as to how they have an opportunity to do so.

You know in USSR the crimes of Andrei Chikatilo did not get reported to the public by the authorities in any way until Chikatilo was practically caught. In fact in USSR many things were with-held from the public, media or from the outside unless it was simply impossible to with-hold or was needed to be used by authorities for some political reason. I am very sure they would have kept quite about Chernobol if it wasn't too big to hide.

Nobody knows of what the f*** is happening in Saudi Arabia. It's a dictatorship with government controlled media and government controlled information. Nobody keeps track of the crimes, statistics or anything else of the sort. In fact most of the women are afraid to even speak out for obvious cultural, traditional and religious reasons. Plus the definition of abuse in Saudi Arabia is definetly different from what is considered abuse in the West.

[andak01]

OK, I'm going to focus on a the main topics here:

- Andark01, you're confusing to issues:
1. The crimes and social problems you mentioned are not the results of the teachings of any particular problem. If there were caused by a religious framework, then we could criticise that framework/religion just the same way.

So, if the framework isn't there then no more wife abuse, right? And thus, among Muslim apostates, no more abuse? Among Christian men, no abuse? Oh, I forgot, we aren't allowed the concept of sin.

There is a HUGE difference between a man who beats his wife due to behavioural/personal problems and one who's just following his multi-stage religious teachings.

Hmm. Let's see, protects and provides for wife while beating her??? Seems like those stages can't be carried out in tandem.

The same is true about other crimes or social conducts. I don't know why this is so difficult to distinguish, but I'm finished with part anyway.

As I said, whatever you go looking for, you're going to find. You've gone to read the Quran with the preconception that everything you find there will be evil. Therefore, the words protect and provide are entirely ignored. The word that has a multitude of meanings becomes beating, as in spousal abuse, and you provide your own stereotype as the wife beating Arab. Then you completely ignore the fact that spousal abuse was and is a worldwide problem in every single country in the world since long before the birth of Muhammad. You discount the possibility that any Muslim can have any motivation whatsoever that doesn't come from the Quran. How bloody convenient.

2. As I said before the topic of this thread is not suitable. Wife beating (routine) is different to beating one's wife as part of the process of "protecting" her. Please don't twist/replace my words.

I'm not twisting your words at all. I'm stating what THAT VERSE says. It isn't in some book of commentary or just me saying it. It's the SAME VERSE.

Again, I believe there are decent Muslim gentlemen who never lay a finger on their wife, but there are also those who do beat up their wife because Islam has authorised them.

And I suppose they also protect their wives at the same time and follow days of waiting and refusing their bed LIKE THE VERSE SAYS. Because, if they are throwing out all but the last word and then interpret that in its worst aspect, then they do as vile a job of cherry picking as you have done.

3. This is mainly to respond to Abdul Rahman's post asking me to show evidence of Islam's hatred teachings. I'll just mention a couple of verses to illustrate the point, but I can go on forever. Being a victim of Islam's teachings, I've done enough research into the subject. Here we go:

Then you are like a rape victim who sees evil in all men. It's a pity how a bad experience can permanently cloud your judgement.

[andak01]

I know you're aware of how Shari'a laws are being applied to sanction the abuse, and killing of women, and children, because this forum has made you aware of it.

And I know you are aware that Sharia doesn't sanction the killing of women and children, because I've posted from the Sunna and the Quran directly showing that such things are forbidden.

I also know you want to grandstand against Islam because it is easy to do these days.


...and yes, the basis for oppressive theocratic laws where Arab, and Islamic women are taking this abuse can be found in Islam itself, and yes it's rationalized as righteous manifested through a sort of Islamic "tough love".

Not even vaguely possible that these extremist imams are on a Jim Baker style, self-serving power trip and they get off by ordering others how to live their lives? That they recognize what political power they will gain by stirring hatred in the mob?

...an by the way, it' THEIR interpretation which we are discussing, not the American-Muslim convert's.

Or the Australian Muslim who studied under a Sheikh or my Pakistani imam. Or my Moroccan father-in-law who is a hafith (memorized the Quran) and an imam or the scholar I know with a degree in hadith study from Saudi Arabia who lectures. None of them holds to the MEMRI/FOX version of Islam.

[redcake]

Or the Australian Muslim who studied under a Sheikh or my Pakistani imam. Or my Moroccan father-in-law who is a hafith (memorized the Quran) and an imam or the scholar I know with a degree in hadith study from Saudi Arabia who lectures. None of them holds to the MEMRI/FOX version of Islam.

I don't know Andak, which one of them thinks Kohmeini speaks the truth?
Which one out of your list believes a woman should be the ward of her father, until she gets married and becomes the ward of her husband?
Which one supports polygamy?
Which one condones sex with underage girls?

You let me know. Otherwise, you're still not relevant....and while that's a good thing, it does mean you should stop defending how popular Islam is applied in the Arabic/Islamic states.

There is finally pressure in Arabic countries for these psuedo debates concerning women's rights, and soon enough we'll see actual reform... but not if we pretend these acts are occuring seperate from the very scriptures they are using to outline jsutification of such behavior.

Oh, and by the way...MEMRI just makes their reports and direct translations available as a resource - there is no "MEMRI version of Islam". Feel free to translate the links to Arabic sources I provided earlier and you'll see MEMRI is pretty darn accurate.

[andak01]

I don't know Andak, which one of them thinks Kohmeini speaks the truth?

You know that I'm not Shiite and don't claim to know much about them. But of any Shiites I've met, they hate Kohmeini as much as I do. On the other hand, the political policies that you so strongly support have done more to raise the power of Kohmeini supporters than anything I ever did. You must be very proud of yourself. Those policies have created more exiled Sunni refugees from Iraq than all the Jews that were exiled from there in history. What an accomplishment!

Which one out of your list believes a woman should be the ward of her father, until she gets married and becomes the ward of her husband?

Possibly my Pakistani Imam and my Christian father and a couple of my coworkers who are Baptist.

All of my father-in-law's daughters have a college education and they all work with the exception of my wife.

Which one supports polygamy?

None of them has a polygamous relation. None of them that I am aware of believes the Quran supports polygamy.

Which one condones sex with underage girls?

None.

You let me know. Otherwise, you're still not relevant....and while that's a good thing, it does mean you should stop defending how popular Islam is applied in the Arabic/Islamic states.

We aren't talking about Islam. Most of what you post about are human rights issues that are practiced in Muslim countries because of extremists. It isn't the Quran that causes people to act that way. The Quran didn't cause Saddam to gas the Kurds.

There is finally pressure in Arabic countries for these psuedo debates concerning women's rights, and soon enough we'll see actual reform... but not if we pretend these acts are occuring seperate from the very scriptures they are using to outline jsutification of such behavior.

Why not??? Why can't the pressure be done in such a way that it doesn't come across as a Crusader's threat? "Give equality to women and throw down your Korans or we'll invade you?" "Give equality to women by ripping off their hijabs and making them senators or we'll send spys in to topple your government!"

Oh, and by the way...MEMRI just makes their reports and direct translations available as a resource - there is no "MEMRI version of Islam". Feel free to translate the links to Arabic sources I provided earlier and you'll see MEMRI is pretty darn accurate.

Of course not. Why would an ex-Israeli Colonel and a neo-con set up a propaganda tool to convince people that the worst headlines available in the Arab world are the norm? That just doesn't seem likely that a women married to an advisor to Dick Cheney would go around trying to convince people to invade every regiem in the Middle East like so many dominoes. Looking at the tremendous successes of that half billion dollar policy, it shouldn't take any such convincing. Ask any of the Shiite Imams who now have untold political power because of it! Ask the Halliburton execs. Ask Chalabi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Carmon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meyrav_Wurmser

[Abdul Rahman]

In the meantime, that will give you some time to respond to these verses pertaining to women's rights, and the rights of young girls.

Pile them up to the moon, they don't mean a thing without qualified opinion to guide you.

...
but it doesn't explain why these verses are being used in Muslim communities in Muslim Sharia courts to abuse women and children under the protection of Islam.
...

There are no legitimate Sharia courts.
Two major sects believe in it, and one doesn't. So how can you say it doesn't exist or pretend it's a fabrication by non-believers?

Seeing as you posted in Arabic I have no idea what you are trying to prove. What two major sects? Unless the scholars of the Sunni are from the four madhab with ijaza to make fatwa and transmit knowledge based on unbroken isnad going back to The Prophet of God :saws:, you have proved nothing of importance about Islam.
(wow thats like dealing with the disabled. they are broken "so I urge you to take care of them") :(
And you agree with that. Amazing what religion can do to people. As if Women are more crooked than men.

Ho ho. Take it that way if you must. Obviously there is only one way most of you seem to be able to process any Islamic thought.

You wish.If you want correct information, yes I do wish, that way you could actully have a sound basis for discussion. As to whether or not you embrace Islam, well that is your issue with our Lord, not mine. My job is to just tell the truth about it, what you do with it is up to you.


...
Thats what makes the west morally higher than Islam. Thats why muslims love to go here even if they can hardly speak our language. Thats why you prefer to stay here. Right? You will never migrate to a muslim country because Islamic state practices suck.
Stop conflating Islam with these kufr states. There are no Islamic states, this is not just my opinion but the opinion of the scholars of Islam.

To say that a woman forced to have sex with her husband is not rape in Islam is a lie. Sex may be a right of marriage for both men and women, but this does not equate to force being permissible.

If you say no, and your husband keeps on going, then this is considered marital rape, and no woman should tolerate this.


...
However, this does not in any way mean that the husband may force himself over her for sexual gratification.
...


“Do not begin intercourse until she has experienced desire like the desire you experience, lest you fulfill your desires before she does.” [Mentioned by Imam Ibn Qudama in his Mughni]

It is grounds for divorce and a crime.



...and the fact that the Muslims in this thread have denied the existance of religious inspired abuse towards Islamic women is really problematic and by default makes you part of the problem.
...
You lie with facts so readily. If this behaviour is not countenanced by the orthodox scholars according to their exalted understanding of the scriptures then it is not permissible. No ifs or buts.

There is a little bit of tradeoff there. Women in true democracies are free, and with that freedom comes more rapes.
...

Interesting concept of freedom. The freedom to be raped.

So overall where are women happier? Tell me. In Japan or in Pakistan? In America or Turkey?

How about you tell me, and provide proof.

Its obvious who always get the upper moralities.

Excellent proof there, totally objective.

And why do Muslims love to migrate here?

40% of US Muslims are converts, when you factor in their kids and second generation immigrant Muslims, how many of them actually migrated? Fact is the number one reason is the same as for everyone else. $$$$ and lots of it.

Why bother be ruled by infidels than by muslims?
So what do the [western supported] dictatorships and hereditary petty tyrants have to do with being ruled Islamically? Stop misusing words, you must know that it is haram to call Christians and Jews infidels, last I looked Bush and just about every member of Congress was a Christian, however dubious [or is that dubya'is] in their practise.


...
I know you're aware of how Shari'a laws are being applied to sanction the abuse, and killing of women, and children, because this forum has made you aware of it.
...

By simple definition Sharia cannot be used to oppress anyone, it is from God and an attribute of God is infinite Justice. There is no legitimate application of Sharia laws pertaining to state's rights (to chastise imprison, coerce in any way or execute) anywhere in the world today. At all. Full stop.


...an by the way, it' THEIR interpretation which we are discussing, not the American-Muslim convert's.

There is only correct and incorrect interpretation. If it falls outside of what is permitted then it is not Islamic.
They are cutting women's clitoris in somalia.. religion stuff, you know...
having sexual fan is forbidden for somalian women.
What has this got to do with Islam?

FGM, or other harmful practices, which have become culturally widespread, none of these are in any way permitted.

What kind of weird device is a sexual fan?

...
Most of what you post about are human rights issues that are practiced in Muslim countries because of extremists. It isn't the Quran that causes people to act that way. The Quran didn't cause Saddam to gas the Kurds.
...


Apart from the fact that I reject the use of the term "extremists" in this context as it implies an Islamic basis for unIslamic activity I totally agree with this. What do you boneheads not get about this simple fact? If something is not recognised as Islamic by the scholars of Ahl us-sunnah wal-jammat then it is not Islamic no matter how a deviant sect might try to justify it on the basis of sacred scripture. Every deviant group uses the scriptures to justify its deviation by picking and choosing, which is just what you lot are doing, in effect making the argument for those deviants.

[Agnosthiest]

Ho ho. Take it that way if you must.

well then how do you understand that message about women being crooked?


Stop conflating Islam with these kufr states. There are no Islamic states, this is not just my opinion but the opinion of the scholars of Islam.

Everyone's attempt to create an islamic state sucks, huh?

Islam is like Communism. Looks good in paper, sucks in reality.

Tough luck. This is another proof that Islam is a backward manmade ideology.

[Mil]

Posted by Abdul:

Interesting concept of freedom. The freedom to be raped.

? Rape is not a choice. It's the matter of how society approaches the issue and how it protects its citizens. Women in Saudia Arabia, Iran, Morocco, Turkey, Egypt get raped all the time. Nobody talks about it and women are not protected.

[Abdul Rahman]

well then how do you understand that message about women being crooked?
...

Not the way you do. Do you get poetry at all? Is there something evil or deficient about a rib just because it has a curve in it? Is not a common understanding of the story of the creation of woman in the Hebrew scriptures (whether this is an accurate understanding of it aside), that she was made from a rib?

Which is why you need to take understanding from the scholars and not just your own fancy.

[KettleWhistle]

However, there are many, many more opportunities for rape to occur in a country where women routinely get drunk in public while wearing skimpy clothing versus a society where women dress modestly, tend to stay at home and are chaparoned whenever they are in public.
Really? I didn't know that rapes occur in public or that modest clothes were a rape-preventative measure. And there may be more opportunities, in some ways, but far less likelihood in a society where a person can go out and get laid fairly easily and isn't frustrated about his sexual needs, and where women have enough self-esteem to assert themselves and fight off those who assault them.

[andak01]

Posted by Abdul:

Interesting concept of freedom. The freedom to be raped.

? Rape is not a choice. It's the matter of how society approaches the issue and how it protects its citizens. Women in Saudia Arabia, Iran, Morocco, Turkey, Egypt get raped all the time. Nobody talks about it and women are not protected.

In order to rape a women, it requires opportunity. Which presents greater opportunity, a Saudi girl in modest clothing being chaparoned by her father or a bikini clad drunk American teenager passed out on the beach in Mexico? So, in order for the Saudis to live up to our vile preconceptions as far as rape goes, they must go around with nothing else on their minds plotting to take advantage of the extremely rare opportunities that they have available.

But I understand from having read this forum, the Saudis rape their women in the morning, kill them in the afternoon and resurrect them at night so they can start all over again the next day!

[Abdul Rahman]

...
Islam is like Communism. Looks good in paper, sucks in reality.
...
Communism sucks on paper. Islam in reality which is when practised according to the Sunnah of The Prophet of God :saws: is the only way of life that enobles the human being and fulfills our purpose. Everything else is an illusion of success.
To get pedantic, Islam as submission to God in reality is sucess. this must be beyond dispute for any believer in God, which I doubt you are. You are a proof of the Mercy of God, you slander Him azzawajal yet He swt still feeds and clothes you and permits you the illusion of being in control of your own life.

[Agnosthiest]

Not the way you do. Do you get poetry at all? Is there something evil or deficient about a rib just because it has a curve in it? Is not a common understanding of the story of the creation of woman in the Hebrew scriptures (whether this is an accurate understanding of it aside), that she was made from a rib?

Which is why you need to take understanding from the scholars and not just your own fancy.

Please dont answer questions by asking me questions. How do you explain the equivalence of women to the crookedness of ribs?

Now the hebrew scriptures did say the woman was created from Adam's rib, but nowhere did it highlight the rib's crookedness. Without it, Christians (i dont know about jews) see a different significance:

Woman was not created from Adam's foot that he may trample her.

Woman was not created from adam's head that she may rule over him.

No, woman was created from Adam's rib...from his SIDE...

That she may be equal with him, his partner.

Close to his heart that he should love her dearly.

Admit it, such a lovely interpretation! right? Anything like that in the muslim world? :D


Interesting concept of freedom. The freedom to be raped.

You said that, not me. Its your concept.


How about you tell me, and provide proof.

I asked first. So you tell me. Then you provide your proof and I'll provide mine. Fair & Square. :D


40% of US Muslims are converts

Your claim is outlandish. Whatever gave you that idea? proof?


Fact is the number one reason is the same as for everyone else. $$$$ and lots of it.

Fact is $$$ is just one of the many reasons. Name the rest.

As for me, the reasons I came here are:

$$$
Freedom
Excellent Human Rights record.
Respect
Stable Government



So what do the [western supported] dictatorships and hereditary petty tyrants have to do with being ruled Islamically?

Well the original Islamic Caliphates was a form of dictatorship.



Stop misusing words, you must know that it is haram to call Christians and Jews infidels, last I looked Bush and just about every member of Congress was a Christian, however dubious [or is that dubya'is] in their practise.

oh c'mon now, its you muslims who popularized the idea that jews & christians are infidels. you even call them apes & pigs. now where on earth did you get that idea? please blame your own.

[Abdul Rahman]

How do you explain the equivalence of women to the crookedness of ribs?

Do you get poetry at all?

Now the hebrew scriptures did say the woman was created from Adam's rib, but nowhere did it highlight the rib's crookedness. Without it, Christians (i dont know about jews) see a different significance:

Actually my theology lecturers one of whom is a world recognised expert in the Hebrew scriptures say rib is a bad translation and understanding, "side" as in half is btter.

Admit it, such a lovely interpretation! right? Anything like that in the muslim world? :D

Have you read the Qur'an or just the bits that "experts" point out to you as "the dirt"? Try seeing what the Qur'an says about the creation of the first man and woman. Then see what the scholars say about it.

...
Your claim is outlandish. Whatever gave you that idea? proof?
...

Imam Zaid Shakir, a man in a position to know.

Well the original Islamic Caliphates was a form of dictatorship.

What rot. A dictatorship whose very definition was basd on an oath of allegience freely given by the whole community.

oh c'mon now, its you muslims who popularized the idea that jews & christians are infidels. you even call them apes & pigs.

That's funny becasue the only one's who say it with such certainty are self professed kaffirs. Don't pretend you have no understanding of the context of that verse.

now where on earth did you get that idea? The very fact that I dare to use the word haram means that it comes from authentic Islamic sources. IE The greatscholars of Islam. We can't marry infidels, yet we can marry Christians and Jews. It is haram to call Christians and Jews infidels because they are monotheists, whereas the infidel is a complete denier of God.

What then does the Qur'an say about "infidels?" First, what does the term infidel mean? It is not a Qur'anic term. It is a term that Christians have historically applied to non-Christians, particularly Muslims. Christian doctrine simply did not recognize the legitimacy of Islam. Hence, Muslims were "infidels," and usually placed in the same category as "pagans" and "savages."
...
The Qur'an talks about a group of non-Muslims called "Ahl al-Kitab," or People of Scripture. These are people who have received divine revelation, particularly Christians and Jews. Therefore, the Qur'an automatically recognizes previous Abrahamic faiths and accords special status to the adherents of Christianity and Judaism. What is ironic is that Christian and Jewish doctrine makes no provision for the recognition of Islam; however, Islam recognizes both Christianity and Judaism as divinely-revealed religions. But it is Islam that is always accused of intolerance!

There is more I cannot quote like this but Sheik Hamza Yusuf says we cannot say that Jews and Christians are infidels outright along with Imam Zaid Shakir.
Keep deluding yourself like this if you like but it doesn't change the reality on the ground.

[Agnosthiest]

Do you get poetry at all?

Sure. Now please explain that verse. Tell me what crookedness symbolizes in women.


Actually my theology lecturers one of whom is a world recognised expert in the Hebrew scriptures say rib is a bad translation and understanding, "side" as in half is btter.

And thats how christians understand that. "Side".

Speaking of which, Mohammad had a poor understanding by mentioning "rib".


Have you read the Qur'an or just the bits that "experts" point out to you as "the dirt"? Try seeing what the Qur'an says about the creation of the first man and woman. Then see what the scholars say about it.

I Ive read it alright. I even have one. Now you would probably say that a translation of the koran isnt ......:o


Imam Zaid Shakir, a man in a position to know.

You think its true that 40% are converts just because this Zaid muslim guy told you so?


What rot. A dictatorship whose very definition was basd on an oath of allegience freely given by the whole community.

Oh like Saddam Hussein? My friend, most dictators have been ELECTED into power. But with regards to 'allegiance', you know that Monarchy too is a form of dictatorship. And when Monarchs take their seat the people were asked to 'freely' give their allegiance. And most of the time they do too. Because most of the time they didnt know any better.


That's funny becasue the only one's who say it with such certainty are self professed kaffirs. Don't pretend you have no understanding of the context of that verse.

I have an understanding of the context and I disagree on how many muslims are using it. But who am I to tell your muslim brethren to stop calling christians and jews as monkeys & apes?


The very fact that I dare to use the word haram means that it comes from authentic Islamic sources. IE The greatscholars of Islam. We can't marry infidels, yet we can marry Christians and Jews. It is haram to call Christians and Jews infidels because they are monotheists, whereas the infidel is a complete denier of God.

there are too many muslims who say that christians today are not what the koran calls as "people of the book", because the 99% of christians today believe that Jesus is God. And jews are based on a corrupted torrah? What do you think about these things?

[Abdul Rahman]

Sure. Now please explain that verse. Tell me what crookedness symbolizes in women.

What about the word curve? There are several translations you know.
Take out the pejorative associations to the word crooked, but you will only view the words on The Prophet :saws: in one way.

Speaking of which, Mohammad had a poor understanding by mentioning "rib".

I made the connection to the Jewish scripture here. Seeing as we have a different creation story to the Jews and Christians for human beings you are taking a blind stab in the dark here.

I Ive read it alright. I even have one. Now you would probably say that a translation of the koran isnt ......:o

So what does the creation story say?
What do the scholars of Islam say about what that story means about relations between men and women?

You think its true that 40% are converts just because this IMAM Zaid muslim guy told you so?

He is not just "some guy".
Just because you don't know who he is doesn't mean he is a liar or has no access to statistical data.

Oh like Saddam Hussein? My friend, most dictators have been ELECTED into power. But with regards to 'allegiance', you know that Monarchy too is a form of dictatorship. And when Monarchs take their seat the people were asked to 'freely' give their allegiance. And most of the time they do too. Because most of the time they didnt know any better.

Whatever.

But who am I to tell your muslim brethren to stop calling christians and jews as monkeys & apes?
No one just like me. Except where we transmit an authentic teaching from a qualifed scholar. Doesn't matter who you are Muslim or non-Muslim, if you do that.

I have never heard a single Muslim use that verse in the way you insinuate not even among the Salafi. In Australia the closest we have is "Sheik" Feiz (a Salafi imam of Lebanese background) who snorted during a lecture when referring to Jews at a time of hostilities between Israel and Lebanon because he was angry. He regreted doing that as despite his continued opposition to Israel, he admits it was a wrong insinuaton based on a false understanding of the text.


there are too many muslims who say that christians today are not what the koran calls as "people of the book", because the 99% of christians today believe that Jesus is God. And jews are based on a corrupted torrah? What do you think about these things?This is garbage. Christian doctrine was in its corrupt form by the time of the Prophet Muhammad :saws: these are the people He :saws: was refering to likewise the Jews. This is the opinion of the scholars of Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jammat. Otherwise we couldn't intermarry.

For the marriage to even be valid, 3 conditions of validity must be fulfilled. She has to believe (without doubts) in:


a) God;

b) A recognized revealed Book; and

c) A recognized Prophet. [Durr al-Mukhtar Sharh Tanwir al-Absar]


(And, yes, today’s Christians and Jews are considered from the People of the Book, if the above 3 conditions are met.)

[Mil]

Posted by Andak:

In order to rape a women, it requires opportunity. Which presents greater opportunity, a Saudi girl in modest clothing being chaparoned by her father or a bikini clad drunk American teenager passed out on the beach in Mexico?

I don't know. Did you take statistics?


So, in order for the Saudis to live up to our vile preconceptions as far as rape goes, they must go around with nothing else on their minds plotting to take advantage of the extremely rare opportunities that they have available.

Can you prove it?


But I understand from having read this forum, the Saudis rape their women in the morning, kill them in the afternoon and resurrect them at night so they can start all over again the next day!

You make assumptions. Now can you provide me the exact statistics.

[Agnosthiest]

What about the word curve? There are several translations you know.
Take out the pejorative associations to the word curve, but you will only view the words on The Prophet :saws: in one way.

thats up to you. so how do you explain the entire passage?


He is not just "some guy".
Just because you don't know he is doesn't mean he is a liar or has no access to statistical data.

I know he is an imam, and I never said he is a liar. First of all I just wanted to know if this guy is your only basis for saying that thing about 40%. If he is, then I want to know his basis for doing so. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here. :)


I have never heard a single Muslim use that verse in the way you insinuate not even among the Salafi.

Hey you are the one who implied that this have something to do with a verse. Remember I only asked you where your brethren got that idea about apes & monkeys.


This is garbage. Christian doctrine was in its corrupt form by the time of the Prophet Muhammad :saws: these are the people He :saws: was refering to likewise the Jews. This is the opinion of the scholars of Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jammat. Otherwise we couldn't intermarry.

But some muslims say that during Mohammad there were true christians and there were false christians. So guess what, to them whenever the Koran speaks nicely of christians it was referring to true christians (whatever that is), and whenever it speaks against it was referring to false christians who believe that jesus is god.

And the scholars of Islam have different opinions on the same issues. You can pick & choose according to your agenda.

What matters to me is what happens in reality. The things that happen in common. And anti-jew and anti-christian hostilities are common in the muslim world. And many muslims do use the islamic papers to support such hatred.

[Mil]

Posted by Abdul:

Communism sucks on paper. Islam in reality which is when practised according to the Sunnah of The Prophet of God :saws: is the only way of life that enobles the human being and fulfills our purpose. Everything else is an illusion of success.

Lets substitute Islam to Sex and Muhammed to Dr. Ruth.

"Sex in reality which is when practised according to Dr. Ruth; saws; is the only way of life that annables the human being and fulfills our purpose. Everything else is an illusion of sucess."


To get pedantic, Islam as submission to God in reality is sucess. this must be beyond dispute for any believer in God, which I doubt you are. You are a proof of the Mercy of God, you slander Him azzawajal yet He swt still feeds and clothes you and permits you the illusion of being in control of your own life.

To get pedantic, sexual pleasure in reality is sucess, this must be beyound dispute for any believer in sex, which I doubt you are.


Are all Muslims so f** on the head or just you Abdul? Andak, who the hell is this guy?

[Abdul Rahman]

...I know he is an imam, and I never said he is a liar. First of all I just wanted to know if this guy is your only basis for saying that thing about 40%. If he is, then I want to know his basis for doing so. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here. :)

OK, now we are getting somewhere. He is my only source so far seeing as I live in Australia, but he is a very well informed man whom I trust implicity to only speak from what he knows, like the scholar that he is. If approached he would be happy to provide his source. I am willing to trust him on his word, if you aren't he can be contacted via the Zaytuna institute.

Hey you are the one who implied that this have something to do with a verse. Remember I only asked you where your brethren got that idea about apes & monkeys.

Let's not be disingenuous now.


But some muslims say that during Mohammad there were true christians and there were false christians. So guess what, to them whenever the Koran speaks nicely of christians it was referring to true christians (whatever that is), and whenever it speaks against it was referring to false christians who believe that jesus is god.

And the scholars of Islam have different opinions on the same issues. You can pick & choose according to your agenda.

No, the scholars of Islam are pretty unanimous on this actually. Except for the deviants who have no authority to make such rulings.

What matters to me is what happens in reality. The things that happen in common. And anti-jew and anti-christian hostilities are common in the muslim world. And many muslims do use the islamic papers to support such hatred.What matters to me is the truth about Islamic teaching. If Muslims don't follow that, it is to their loss ultimately. Not anyone elses as God is Just and recompense will be paid in full except through His Mercy. Anti-Muslim sentiment seems to be pretty common too based on prejudice and misconception. Not that two wrongs make a right.

[Abdul Rahman]

...


Are all Muslims so f** on the head or just you Abdul? Andak, who the hell is this guy?You are a rude and base man. I hope you are proud of the way you waste the gifts God has given you. My name is Abdul Rahman, if you are too lazy at least write AR instead to show you have the least level of manners fit for civil society.

[Agnosthiest]

Hey arent you even gonna try to explain that verse about ribs and women?


He is my only source so far seeing as I live in Australia, but he is a very well informed man

Even very informed men are ignorant on many things. Anyway looks like this is a dead end. Your claim is simply baseless. 40% are converts, yeah right!

[Mil]

You are a rude and base man.

Actually I am very nice and cuddly.

I hope you are proud of the way you waste the gifts God has given you.

What if my God is Zeus?


My name is Abdul Rahman, if you are too lazy at least write AR instead to show you have the least level of manners fit for civil society.

Supercalofredelisticexpealodocious.

[redcake]

These conversations always leave me wondering what the connection is between dishonesty and manipulation with Islam.

One one side of their mouth they demand a total suspension of belief to disconnect the reality of the existance of Islamic Shari'a courts and the role Islam plays in the oppression of women.... it's not like a man in Saudi Arabi has the perfect right to discipline his wife without any requirements of reporting it to authorities or Amnesty International or anything....and it's not like if anyone disputes it, they go to an Islamic court which will reference several Hadiths for guidance, right? Gosh, no! That's obviously MEMRI propaganda....or a result of the US policies in the mid-east (as Andak suggested to me).

Then on the other side of their mouth, we're told of the advantages of imposed modesty, and reminded that the heathen sluts in the western world are in far worse danger for rape then if they lived in Saudi Arabia, where we're to believe being suh-human comes with it's advantages!

[Mil]

One only wanders why with so much God advantage most of the Muslim world is third world cra***phole.

Apparently the local Muslims are telling us that apparently our virtue of CHOICE are wrong.

I am sorry but this is far below the levels of my personal believes or standards. Abdul my advice for you is to leave the nice heaven of Sydney and go back to where you came from. Saudi Arabia is pure Islam and your success in that country is guaranteed.

[andak01]

These conversations always leave me wondering what the connection is between dishonesty and manipulation with Islam.

Kind of the same as the concept of the "lying Jew". And the people who claim that we are somehow genetically prone to dishonesty are of the same ilk as the "lying Jew" cannard slingers. Although it is patently clear in both the Quran and the Sunna that Allah hates the dishonest and loves the honest, they continue with this taqqiyya nonsense. Though it is clear to any intelligent person that lying is part of the human condition, they single out Muslims as particularly and singularly dishonest.

One one side of their mouth they demand a total suspension of belief to disconnect the reality of the existance of Islamic Shari'a courts and the role Islam plays in the oppression of women.... it's not like a man in Saudi Arabi has the perfect right to discipline his wife without any requirements of reporting it to authorities or Amnesty International or anything....

I had that same right as a Christian in American society. So long as the neighbors or the wife don't go to the police anything is permissible. Do American Christian men call Amnesty International when they beat their wives??? Whose being dishonest now?

and it's not like if anyone disputes it, they go to an Islamic court which will reference several Hadiths for guidance, right? Gosh, no! That's obviously MEMRI propaganda....or a result of the US policies in the mid-east (as Andak suggested to me).

What I suggested is that effecting change for these issue is seemingly worth hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths to you and fifty Iraqs. You are all for violent regiem change so that women will be forced not to wear a hijab anywhere ever even if they wish to. You don't care what the human cost of such regiem change is, so long as the Muslims of the world are forced to act exactly like good Americans, despising their own religion and praising Israel at every opportunity.

What do you have to say about the Orthodox Jewish stance on women's equality? Anything? Would you be OK if we invaded Israel and started ripping off Jewish women's wigs, telling them they are "free"?

Then on the other side of their mouth, we're told of the advantages of imposed modesty, and reminded that the heathen sluts in the western world are in far worse danger for rape then if they lived in Saudi Arabia, where we're to believe being suh-human comes with it's advantages!

Heathen slut is your term. Why don't you attend a crime prevention seminar and ask about stumbling through the streets drunk in the middle of the night wearing skimpy clothing? I know, I know. I'm just an extremist for mentioning such a thing. You'd really be in just as much danger if you stayed home sober at night behind locked doors. That's why I revel in my freedom by going to the worst part of town with a handful of credit cards and cash singing "We're in the money!"

[Agnosthiest]

Though it is clear to any intelligent person that lying is part of the human condition, they single out Muslims as particularly and singularly dishonest.

Lying is when you KNOWINGLY assert false things as true. The way I see it muslims are rather MISINFORMED than liars. Muslims are also commonly UNFOCUSED. Like you, Andak. Like we were discussing Yemen history and you shift it to cold war. Sometimes this gives the illusion of dishonesty.

[Mil]

What do you have to say about the Orthodox Jewish stance on women's equality? Anything? Would you be OK if we invaded Israel and started ripping off Jewish women's wigs, telling them they are "free"?

Ah, it's because women in Israel have a CHOICE!!!! Those Orthodox women might decide to take up Islam tomorrow, then switch to Hinduism, then back to Judaism, and then spit on everything and open a bordello. See the difference?


As to my Jewish identity God forbid some rebbi will start telling me of what is or what is not Jewish and threaten me with physical consequences. I will tell that rebbi to go suck his own.....

[bararallu]

Kind of the same as the concept of the "lying Jew".

No not realy. We don't have a theological (http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004628.php) directive to lie, mislead, obfuscate and whitewash.

"“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…"

and talking of obligatory, violent genocidal Jihad is obligatory to all Muslims if what they consider Dar-Al-Islam is usurped by dhimmis and other infidels.

[Agnosthiest]

Why don't you attend a crime prevention seminar and ask about stumbling through the streets drunk in the middle of the night wearing skimpy clothing?

Getting drunk, dressed like a hooker, walking all alone in the middle of the night in a dangerous neighborhood.

My friend, a fool like that would get in trouble regardless of anything. Even if its a muslim woman living in saudi arabia, such a fool would find ways to bring harm to herself.

[Mediocrates]

Considering most of those women are

Pros
Cops
Men


I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[redcake]

Though it is clear to any intelligent person that lying is part of the human condition, they single out Muslims as particularly and singularly dishonest.

That would be an oh so great response if I had insinuated that Muslims were predisposed to lies as some form of genetic malady as had been the libel against Jews... but irregardless of the human condition, or the Koran's two faced take on fibbing, I am telling you that with each and every post I read on message boards where Muslims snake around the issues, it forces me to wonder if even you are aware how deceptive and contradictory you come off. In the end, you're as unapologetic as any extremist.

So long as the neighbors or the wife don't go to the police anything is permissible. Do American Christian men call Amnesty International when they beat their wives??? Whose being dishonest now?

You Andak. You are. We have battered women hotlines, women's shelters, and laws which are meant to stop the very behavior that Saudi Arabia has legalized. We have justice prevention statistics, http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/rape.htm, and studies by independent organizations http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html and there is nothing even remotely close to that which exists under Islamic rule. You know this, but you play dumb, because you say dumb things which you feel momentarily support your arguments. Now if you really want to put the accuracy of a human rights report on the USA, with one of Saudi Arabia, or Iran, then obviously your question about who is being dishonest was meant to be rhetorical and self deprecating.

You are a self clowning oven.



What I suggested is that effecting change for these issue is seemingly worth hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths to you and fifty Iraqs. You are all for violent regiem change so that women will be forced not to wear a hijab anywhere ever even if they wish to.

Huh? Please don't put words into my mouth.
I do think the liberation of women as third class citizens is an important issue but if you think I've suggested military action, then quote me on it, or hush up.

The hijab should be a matter of choice, not government enforced law based on ISLAMIC TEXTS. Rather then take the side of humanity and just agree with that statement, your response has been to claim these laws have nothing to do with Islam. Say what?


You don't care what the human cost of such regiem change is, so long as the Muslims of the world are forced to act exactly like good Americans, despising their own religion and praising Israel at every opportunity.

You're obviously on auto-pilot.


What do you have to say about the Orthodox Jewish stance on women's equality? Anything? Would you be OK if we invaded Israel and started ripping off Jewish women's wigs, telling them they are "free"?

a) The treatment of Orthodox women is not even close to the epidemic of abuse in the Arab Muslim communities, and your knee jerk equivalency is tiring and desperate. You will never substantiate the comparison, so don't make it.

b) It's a shame you can only reduce the issue to head coverings, because in your warped brain, you found a vague similarity and decided to run with it. Sorry, but there is nothing close to Shari'a law imposed on Israeli women. There are no online petitions for teenage girls facing death sentences in Israel, like in Iran.

c) Nobody has even suggested an invasion in context with head coverings, so again when faced with facts you can not refute, and your own contradictory words, you resort to hyperbole. I guess you read a great defense of the Hijab, and you're hungry to use it, but it's of no help to you in this discussion no matter how randomely you try and fit it in.



Heathen slut is your term. Why don't you attend a crime prevention seminar and ask about stumbling through the streets drunk in the middle of the night wearing skimpy clothing? I know, I know. I'm just an extremist for mentioning such a thing. You'd really be in just as much danger if you stayed home sober at night behind locked doors. That's why I revel in my freedom by going to the worst part of town with a handful of credit cards and cash singing "We're in the money!"

All lunacy aside, you might want to step away from that particular gender rights issue, since feminism clearly isn't your strongpoint. Hate to break it to you, but chastising women for the consequences of their personal right to wear what they want, is hardly a strong argument for the Burqa, which is in actuality just another form of objectification.

Let's revisit what you said:
However, there are many, many more opportunities for rape to occur in a country where women routinely get drunk in public while wearing skimpy clothing versus a society where women dress modestly, tend to stay at home and are chaparoned whenever they are in public. If Saudi men are indeed committing more rapes, I'd be curious as to how they have an opportunity to do so.

Are you actually arguing that Islamic countries where women have no rights at all have less hate crimes against women? Wow, let's hope you're not a reflection of Islams more moderate teachings either then.

[redcake]

My friend, a fool like that would get in trouble regardless of anything. Even if its a muslim woman living in saudi arabia, such a fool would find ways to bring harm to herself.

I know right! Totally asking for it.

What percentage of the hundreds of thousands of yearly sexual assualts against women do you estimate are due to wanton behavior, and short skirts? According to RAINN, 73% were victimized by someone they knew, and 40% of rape victims are under aged.

So there you go! We're talking about the horrible treatment of women in America... now can you cite some RAINN like stats for Saudi Arabia? Otherwise that makes this whole comparison point of yours kinda incomplete.

Or better yet, can you tell us what the Koran might say about those wanton women crawling around dark alleys in short skirts? That would probably offer us some more insight into your statements about these "fools" who "bring harm to themselves".

[Agnosthiest]

I know right! Totally asking for it.

You seem to have missed my point. I am not talking about rape. Certainly not generalizing it! I am talking about a fool. Fools always get in trouble.

In the west a foolish girl dress like a hooker, stay in bars up to the wee hours and get drunk and walk home all alone in a dangerous neighborhood, carelessly exposing herself to every imaginable horrors.

In arabia a foolish girl will carelessly fornicate, and open herself up to being stoned to death.


Thankfully those kinds of fools are rare in both places. Right? :)

[redcake]

So you're taught to blame the victims of sexual assualt and stonings, both in the US and Saudi Arabia?

What do you think is more foolish? Some careless fornication, or stoning a girl for it, hmm?

[Agnosthiest]

So you're taught to blame the victims of sexual assualt and stonings, both in the US and Saudi Arabia?

For me, a little blame goes to the victims in those scenarios.

[andak01]

That would be an oh so great response if I had insinuated that Muslims were predisposed to lies as some form of genetic malady as had been the libel against Jews... but irregardless of the human condition, or the Koran's two faced take on fibbing, I am telling you that with each and every post I read on message boards where Muslims snake around the issues, it forces me to wonder if even you are aware how deceptive and contradictory you come off. In the end, you're as unapologetic as any extremist.

It is snaking around the issue when you say: "Talk about the MUSLIM obligation of wife beating." and I deny that there is such a thing. Then I try to talk about any aspect of Islam that doesn't prove that there is an obligation of wife beating (which there isn't).

Suppose I start a thread Jewish Debate on Judaic Matzo made of Children's Blood and refuse to allow you to deny that such a thing exists. I'm sure I could cherry pick something out of the Torah or Talmud to bolster the point. Would you be dishonest to defend yourself?

You Andak. You are. We have battered women hotlines, women's shelters, and laws which are meant to stop the very behavior that Saudi Arabia has legalized.

The Saudi Royalty also drinks alcohol. Are you going to prove to us that alcohol is Halal as well?


We have justice prevention statistics, http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/rape.htm, and studies by independent organizations http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html and there is nothing even remotely close to that which exists under Islamic rule.

Nor in most of the third world. I'm not aware of such studies in Thailand for example, or the Congo or Brazil or China or India.

Huh? Please don't put words into my mouth.
I do think the liberation of women as third class citizens is an important issue but if you think I've suggested military action, then quote me on it, or hush up.



The hijab should be a matter of choice, not government enforced law based on ISLAMIC TEXTS.[/qutoe]

If they are basing it on Islamic text then forcing the woman to do it cannot be part of that. "There is no compulsion in Religion." That is an Islamic text.

[quote]Rather then take the side of humanity and just agree with that statement, your response has been to claim these laws have nothing to do with Islam. Say what?

Oh. So now there is the side of humanity versus the side of Islam? Is that it? How blatantly condescending can you get?

All lunacy aside, you might want to step away from that particular gender rights issue, since feminism clearly isn't your strongpoint. Hate to break it to you, but chastising women for the consequences of their personal right to wear what they want, is hardly a strong argument for the Burqa, which is in actuality just another form of objectification.

I've never argued for the burqah or even the hijab. What I'm arguing for is a woman's right to wear what she wants without social stigma, and that includes a hijab.

Are you actually arguing that Islamic countries where women have no rights at all have less hate crimes against women? Wow, let's hope you're not a reflection of Islams more moderate teachings either then.

Specific to rape, I'm quite certain that the incidence of rape is comparable to any other third world country and that economics and education play a much greater role than religion. Fact is, neither of us can do more than speculate minus some solid statistics.

I would absolutely love to see the rape statistics of India versus Pakistan. One statistic we do have is AIDS levels. They are pretty well documented and they are lower throughout the Muslim world. By 400% over North America and close to 1800% over Sub Saharan Africa.

Middle East and North Africa Adult HIV prevalence (%), 2005 0.2
http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/global?page=cr06-00-00
Sub Saharan Africa %5.9
http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/global?page=cr09-00-00
Caribbean %1.2
Eastern Europe and Central Asia %0.9
North America %0.8
Western Europe %0.3

[redcake]

One statistic we do have is AIDS levels. They are pretty well documented and they are lower throughout the Muslim world.

None of these nations are accurately reporting cases of HIV.


Suppose I start a thread Jewish Debate on Judaic Matzo made of Children's Blood and refuse to allow you to d