Is it actually occupation?

[NewsGuy]

One of the main complaints of the Palestinians is that are supposedly "occupied," and that is why they should be allowed to mass-murder Jews in a liberation Jihad.

Lately, there came to light a tiny group of leftist Israeli soldiers who have issued a letter saying that they refuse to serve in Gaza and the West Bank, because they do not wish to fight for occupation. Even though this group amounts to less than a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the IDF, they managed to make a lot of noise in the Israeli military and political establishment. They are now being backed by a leftist lawyer named Leibovitz.

Here is a fascinating reaction from "Debkafiles" editor:

* * *

On Friday, February 1, in one of the many Israeli media interviews on the issue, a dissenting campaign leader, a lawyer named Leibovitz, was asked if he had ever been handed an illegal order by an officer. His answer: “I’d rather not go into specifics. Holding 3 million human beings under occupation is immoral. Immoral means illegal.”

Leaving aside the sweeping equation of morality with legality, Mr. Leibovitz needs to be asked: where does he come by his figures? The Gaza Strip has 1.1 million Palestinians; the West Bank, 1 million. The missing million equals the size of Israel’s Arab community, voting citizens since 1948 with ten Arabs seated in Israel’s Knesset. This dissenting reserve officer seems to suggest that Israeli Arabs live under Israeli occupation, which they themselves have never claimed, though complaining of being under-privileged.

If he is so hot on legalities, then why does Mr. Leibovitz fail to speak out against the illegal entry of Palestinian bombers and gunmen to “non-occupied” Tel Aviv, Hadera, Haifa, Afula and pre-1967 Jerusalem to murder civilians, most of whom were not in the country or even alive when the 1967 “occupation” took place. And why does he fail to mention that Arab Palestinian terrorism against Israeli and non-Israeli Jews was rife decades before the 1967 war?

In those unmentioned years, the West Bank, Gaza Strip and much of Jerusalem were under Arab rule.

Wednesday, January 30, Thomas L. Friedman, a long-time icon of the Israeli Left, writing in the New York Time, called Yasser Arafat “a dead man walking because he shot himself – three times.” For years he demanded a Palestinian state, but when it was offered at Camp David in 2000, the Palestinian leader, he writes, spurned it and insisted on the return of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees to pre-1967 Israel. “It turns out Arafat wanted two Palestinian states,” writes Friedman, quoting the Middle East expert Stephen P. Cohen. “He wanted a Palestinian state for the West Bank and Gaza to be negotiated with Israel today. And he wanted a Palestinian state inside Israel that would be brought about by a return of Palestinian refugees and their soaring birth rate.”

* * *

I would also add that it is difficult to make a case for "occupation" when Israel has repeatedly withdrawn its troops whenever Arab terrorism quieted down in any particular Arab city for even a few days, and when Sharon has repeatedly saud that if palestinian terorrism would stop for even 7 days, then he would be willing to negotiate for a Palestinains state immediately.

[takeo]

Israel never proposed to retreat from all the occupied territories.

"hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees to pre-1967 Israel".
Even if 2 millions of Palestinians combined with the ones already in Israel would be a minority of maximum 30% or less. If they continue living in israel and come to a higher standard of living they will have the same birth-rate as the israeli Palestinians today, which is only slightly higher than that of the Jewish Israeli. ( source UNDP-statistics).

[takeo]

of course those 30% would have the right to vote and their parties combined with left-wing Israel would be able to dispose the right-wing.
I strongly support the initiative and hope more will folow their brave example.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Israel never proposed to retreat from all the occupied territories.

Not true. Barak was willing to hand over all the Palestinian-occupied territories. This was rejected, of course, because any solution that would let Jews live in Israel was rejected by Arafat.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Even if 2 millions of Palestinians combined with the ones already in Israel would be a minority of maximum 30% or less.

First of all, this does not relate to occupation. Secondly, the Arab refugee issue is not Israel's problem, it is an Arab problem.

A total of more than 3 million Palestinians would be much more than 30%. It would probably be more like 40 or 45% -- nearly even.

Within twenty years there would be more Arabs than Jews in Israel, which is a recipe for the demise of the Jewish people.

[L@mplighterM]

The way I see it is that if there's any occupied territory it dosen't belong to the Palestinians. These people are immigrants that have snuck in there for a variety of reasons. Most likely the main reason was the oppression they faced in their own Arab countries.

[takeo]

they were immigrants a 2000 years ago, and even that is not sure...

Israel's population is 6000000. +2 million (but that is really exaggerated, not all refugees will go back to Israel, more likely 500000 to 1000000) that is 8 million, of which more or less 3 million palestinians. (that's 37%, which is absolutely the maximum, more something like 25%)

"Not true. Barak was willing to hand over all the Palestinian-occupied territories. This was rejected, of course, because any solution that would let Jews live in Israel was rejected by Arafat."

He was not willing, most settlements would remain(almost the entire Jordan valley), as well as all outside border posts, many parts of eastern Yerusalem, etc.
and the settlement question had not been agreed upon

[L@mplighterM]

You were not the only immigrants there 2000 years ago what nonsense. Not only that Israel should have annexed every bit of land it captured in 1967.

There might have been a few nomadic Arabs and their camels there from time to time. Show me a deed to this supposedand that you claim was stolen from you.

You do know what a deed is dont you???????

[JustSad]

Newsguy and lamplighter,

Of course it is an occupation!
Everybody has the right of defining their own version of the truth.
But simply denying the obvious facts that everyone sees, is just sad.

[McSceptic]

Eh?! The Jewish people have a tidy legal document that shows they own that part of the world?

They should have produced it before now and all those nasty Egyptians, Greeks and Romans wouldn't have overrun their country and taken it over. You know what sticklers for legality countries are.

Seriously, it wouldn't matter if they had a stack of legal documents six foot high: sword vs. pen? No contest.

Re your earlier point about the reservists. That kind of self-doubt would be very dangerous if it became widespread. The Boers only held on 400 years because backwoods Dutch farmers aren't the most reflective of people.

[takeo]

Well at least the boers can proove they were there 400 years.
Palestinians can proove they were there since the 8th century as a majority, because from that time, hostorical chronics about this region appeared, but according to many historians the pals come from the people that spoke Arameic and lived already in Palestine in the time of Christe.
Every people living in a country for centuries has the right to live there, and if you go away you don't have the right 2000 years later to claim this land back(except the small Jewish community that stayed there). I think this is just called "common sence".
But anyway since some generations Jews live again in Palestine, so this is a fact now, and as you said not legitimicy or etnicity but violence decide upon who can live there and who doesn't. but palestinians live there as well, and they will not leave and fight untill Israel gives the the right as a people.

[L@mplighterM]

In actuality everyone sort of leases land they get to remain on the land as long as taxes are paid. The state owns the land or the crown depending on where you live.

With all certainty if the Arabs would have won the war in 1967 they would have slaughtered every jew and divided up the land.

The so called mystical Palestinians would have gotten SQUAT. Reverse it and you should get the picture.

[takeo]

This was so in the middle ages, fortunately times have changed.
If the Arabs would have won in 1967 (a war israel started) they would have made it "palestine" and Jews who wished to remain there under palestinian controll could do so. (according to Nasser). Any mass-murder of jews would have provoked a massive American-european-russian intervention. Israel won instead and conquered more land and the population of mainly refugees from israel was since faced with a brutal repression, only some Europeans and Russia criticised this.

[JustSad]

Newsguy,

without going too much into semantic questions, i guess everyone in the world agree's that the word "occupation" is absolutely the right word .
Don't be surprised about that.

The rest of the world will not be surprised when the occupying party wishes to call it differently.

By the way, occupying is not always a bad thing. It depends on how the occupying party behaves i guess.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by JustSad
Newsguy,

without going too much into semantic questions, i guess everyone in the world agree's that the word "occupation" is absolutely the right word .
Don't be surprised about that.

Didn't everybody in the world also agree to the Clinton-Barak peace plan which offered the Palestinains an independent country? Didn't everybody on the world also agree that Arafat rejected the Palestinian independent state and instead ordered terrorist attacks on Israel?

I think that when a nation such as the Palestinians reject an independent state, then they lose forever the right to complain about so-called occupation. It then becomes a strategic choice.

[L@mplighterM]

Nasser’s filthy mouth and the actions of Arab states started the war. Russia in that time of history didn't exist it was called the USSR another evil empire. Live in Peace *LOL* sure there wouldn't have been any Jews left when the fighting stopped.

You Arabs are just sore because a small nation defeated a mighty Arab nation. Everyone knows that your biggest fear is the kindness bestowed on you by Israel and its fine democracy and that is a treat to your fascist Arab regimes.

Your leaders are afraid that the democracy will spread and they will fall, that is why they fill you with false facts and lies. You are being used in the name of Allah to perform evil acts.
Palestinians like you sell your bodies for money to spread your propaganda in the world. I wont use a ****** ****** to prove my point because I know that I’m right. I see your venom on several sites and in chat.

Regardless of how the EU, US, Asia, etc seems to support you they are wise to you and will destroy you all economically and militarily. The US will lead the crusade to stamp out the evil wherever it grows so great nations can grow in the sun and prosper.

[takeo]

That is really BS. An offer is there for discussion between the negociating partners, it is not "take t or leave it", as the americans did in Kosovo...
In the same way you can say that Israel lost the right to complain about terrorism because they refused to talk to Arafat when he offered it in december.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
That is really BS. An offer is there for discussion between the negociating partners, it is not "take t or leave it", as the americans did in Kosovo...

BS to you maybe, considering you'd like the Palestinians to be able to destroy Israel's identity.

But the offer was never a "take it or leave it" proposal, as you mistakenly claim. It was a proposal for a framework to negotiate a final settlement resulting in a Palestinian state.

When the Palestinians rejected the offer for an independent state, they can no longer say that occupation is being forced on them. It is their choice from that point on.

[takeo]

Lomplighter, Israel, a country that acts against the geneva-conventions and against international law, and is based upon fascist etnicity, will never represent democracy and will never be a danger to dictators but a help to keep them in power.
And the US won't risk a worldwide war to save the *** of Israel.
Today there are enough "evil empires" left (US, China, etc.) but israel isn't an empire, it could win against some thirth-world-neighbours of israel in 1967, but can't win against the united Muslim world. If you refuse to compromise with your victims than Israel will never be a normal, democratic and peacefull country, unless you want to kill all Arabs and provoke WWIII, which will result in the total destruction of Israel as well.



"BS to you maybe, considering you'd like the Palestinians to be able to destroy Israel's identity.

But the offer was never a "take it or leave it" proposal, as you mistakenly claim. It was a proposal for a framework to negotiate a final settlement resulting in a Palestinian state.

When the Palestinians rejected the offer for an independent state, they can no longer say that occupation is being forced on them. It is their choice from that point on. "

It wasn't, arafat proposed to include the refugee-question, and proposed to make the agreements a base of further negociations (about the final status of jerusalem, the refugee- and settlement-question, the question of palestinian sovereignity over its own borders), Barak said no further discussion about this would be possible. The Palestinians rejected to agree with a partial end to occupation, they want a total end of israeli souvereignity over the occupied territories, and as long as isael doesn't agree to that they suffer from an occupation being forced upon them.

[takeo]

"Lomplighter, Israel, a country that acts against the geneva-conventions and against international law, and is based upon fascist etnicity, will never represent democracy and will never be a danger to dictators but a help to keep them in power. "

Unless it changes its policy and want to establish peacefull relations with its neighbours, with the palestinians and with the international community, in that case israel could become the motor of democratic change in the middle east.

[L@mplighterM]

It?s difficult to keep up with your bizarre claims. Let me see now you?re a theologian and a barrister as well as a well rounded world traveler.
Israel is a nation surrounded by Arab Empires that speak with forked tongues, whose greatest desires is the demise of Israel.

There?s not one shed of evidence that Palestinians have a legitimate claim to any land. Further it can not be considered an occupation under UN resolution 242 before it?s clearly established what land Israel requires to protect its borders. The Arabs position is all or nothing. So you see the UN has never specifically established exactly what the Palestinians should receive. If any!

Show land deeds and/or titles never mind the nonsense that this was not a requirement in your society? You can?t show me land tittles because there aren?t any. Who were the elected representatives prior to 1967? What was their gross national product? Where exactly were the boundaries separating Israel from the alleged land that was occupied? Who sued for surrender?

I could ask many questions but the problem is I?d get a round about answer that?s all you get from you Arabs. I don?t even think you believe your own lies.

As far as violating International Law and the Geneva Convention goes please don?t make me laugh. No one in Israel has violated anything.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
It wasn't, arafat proposed to include the refugee-question, and proposed to make the agreements a base of further negociations (about the final status of jerusalem, the refugee- and settlement-question, the question of palestinian sovereignity over its own borders), Barak said no further discussion about this would be possible.

Barak offered to take in a certain number of Palestinians into Israel, but that wasn;t sufficient ofr Arafat, because the number was not large enough to completely destroy Israel's national identity.

It is interesting to note that in Arafat's latest letter ot the NY Times, he wrote that the Palestinian self-made refugee problem would need to be resolved in consideration of Israel's demographic concerns. Had he said that at Camp David 2000, then I think there would be a second Palestinian state by now.

Instead the Palestinian strategic choice was to avoid independence and opt for terrorism.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by McSceptic
Re your earlier point about the reservists. That kind of self-doubt would be very dangerous if it became widespread.

I agree. It seems like a very dangerous mutiny of cowards. This is why the General Mofaz has taken a very dim view and is now investigating whether there is a leftist political background to this incident.

I can imagine that if this happened in the UK or the US during a time of war, those soldiers would be thrown under arrest immediately.

[takeo]

lomplighter, even the US thinks that the occupied territories don't belong to Israel and that Israel offended the geneva-conventions.
The UN-declaration call for israel to leave the positions it conquered in 1967, that's quite obvious, isn't it? Another resolution also calls for the return of the palestinian refugees who were not allowed to return in 1949.
Never before 1967 did the gaza strip, Westbank and eastern yerusalem did belong to Israel and so far no single state has recognised this parts to belong to Israel, quite obvious isn't ?

"Barak offered to take in a certain number of Palestinians into Israel, but that wasn;t sufficient ofr Arafat, because the number was not large enough to completely destroy Israel's national identity.
It is interesting to note that in Arafat's latest letter ot the NY Times, he wrote that the Palestinian self-made refugee problem would need to be resolved in consideration of Israel's demographic concerns. Had he said that at Camp David 2000, then I think there would be a second Palestinian state by now.
Instead the Palestinian strategic choice was to avoid independence and opt for terrorism."

It's the first time i hear Barak proposed the return of a number of Palestinians to israel, however the uN-resolution says clearly that everyone wishing to return IN PEACE and VOLUNTARILY should be able to do so. as we saw in the other posts, even if they would all return(very unlikely) the total pal population of Israel would be less than 37 % of the total Israeli population.





"I agree. It seems like a very dangerous mutiny of cowards. This is why the General Mofaz has taken a very dim view and is now investigating whether there is a leftist political background to this incident.
I can imagine that if this happened in the UK or the US during a time of war, those soldiers would be thrown under arrest immediately. "

They are no cowards but heroes. Of course this has a political background, israelis who refuse to serve any longer as the tools of the fascist expansionist policy of the Israeli establishment in a senceless and unnecessary war. if the state would choose to persecute them it would act no different from any other fascist state (or the people who refused to serve in Vietnam) and it would completely alienate the left part of israeli population and create heroes.

[L@mplighterM]

The trouble with you Arabs is that you simply don’t understand plain old English.

There's no UN Resolution stating that Israel should return to the same position as pre 1967. List the imaginary resolution number but before you do get someone to translate it for you.

As far as violations pertaining to the Geneva Convention investigations established that Israel had always treated prisoners properly. On the contrary you people have violate basic human rights completely and continuously.

Israel is a nation that has tolerated abuse from its neighbors and is paying a heavy price for it. Why don’t you see the error in your ways( talk it over with your partner) and admit that there is no occupation. Lay down your arms and surrender returning quietly back to where you came from.

Things might have gone better for you if some of your leaders had formed an alliance with Israel and had fought on the same side as Israel.

[L@mplighterM]

All you are capable off is distorting the facts and lying by omission. I don’t think anyone with Internet access is capable of not knowing the truth unless you’re sitting in a coffee house Internet café in Baghdad being monitored.

Facts speak for themselves not excuses. Every time you’re asked for facts it becomes this or that never a clear answer.

Get it in your head Israel has never held a position other than self- preservation are a peace loving people Their Quest is continuously being destroyed by Arab hate propaganda and violent deadly attacks initiated by evil and carried out by demons.

[NewsGuy]

To all (without being specific),

Examples of stuff I need to edit out of a few people's posts:

- By the way do all Arabs suffer from multiple personalities and/or schizophrenia ?

- This is a common Arab trait most likely a fact- lacking gene in their DNA.

This isn't a racist forum. It's very easy to debate the issues without this stuff.

I'm leaving this message here just to be helpful.

Thanks for understanding.

[L@mplighterM]

All right NewsGuy I'll elliminate the remarks that could be construed as being racists in nature.

[takeo]

First of all I'm not an Arab and I don't live in Bagdad. If i would have been an Arab this forum would have turned me into an anti-semite, and i wouldn't have been interested in zionist propaganda in the first place. My Jewish origin forces me to take action against those lunatics who claim to act in the name of all Jews on earth. During my travels(it is the best way to learn the world, much better than internet or media, because no propaganda but real facts) in Muslim countries and in Israel i aknowledged that they are all people and the only bad things preventing peace are politicians and nationalist/fundamentalist ideology.
I am not racist either, on the contrary some other people...

For none of the words of lomplighter, newsguy, aid, negev, etc. i saw some fact, some evidence, some hard proove (for example the theory that palestinians came from creta, that they ever lived there, etc.)
Some facts:
about the nice treatments of prisoners according to the Geneva-convention in Israel: go to the website of amnesty International (or human rights watch) , look for the latest report about Israel and take a deep breath.
the 1967 UN-resolution: resolution 242 of 22 november 1967:
"Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict" (http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/b86613e7d92097880525672e007227a7/59210ce6d04aef61852560c3005da209!OpenDocument)



"Things might have gone better for you if some of your leaders had formed an alliance with Israel and had fought on the same side as Israel."

Why would they do this? Israel has nothing to offer to them, because it doesn't accept to return the occupied territories.



"Get it in your head Israel has never held a position other than self- preservation are a peace loving people Their Quest is continuously being destroyed by Arab hate propaganda and violent deadly attacks initiated by evil and carried out by demons."

do you really believe this yourself Lomplighter?
if israel was interested in peace it would never have started the wars in 1955 and 1967 and would have given up occupation, as demanded by the un, a long time ago.

[takeo]

"Resolution N° 2725 of 4 July 1967 concerning the respect of human rights in the occupied Arab territories, and that Israel should guarantee security and safety of population of such territories.

Resolution N° 2443 dated 19 December 1968 concerning the establishment of a committee to investigate into the Israeli practices affecting the human rights of the population of the occupied territories.

Resolution N° 2452 dated 19 December 1968 requesting Israel to immediately arrange for the return of the refugees who fled the occupied territories and extending the term of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency ( UNRWA ).

Resolution N° 2649 dated 30 November 1970 about legitimacy of struggle of population under colonial and foreign control, condemning denial of the self-determination right particularly for peoples of South Africa and Palestine.

Resolution N° 2851 dated 20 December 1971 strictly requesting Israel to cancel all procedures of annexation or settlement in the occupied territories, and requesting the Special Committee to continue its job.

General Assembly N° 1441 dated 15 December 1975 : The report of the Special Committee for investigating into the Israeli practices of the human rights of the population of the occupied territories.

Resolution N° 1531 dated 22 December 1976 providing assistance to the immigrants due to Israeli aggressive activities of 1967.

Resolution N° 638 dated 9 November 1976 : Reiterating the right of the population, refugees and immigrants to return to their homes and camps in the territories occupied by Israel since 1967.

Resolution N° 31/106 dated 16 December 1976 on the Israeli practices of the human rights of the population of the occupied territories.

Resolution N° 31/186 dated 21 December 1976 on permanent control over the national resources in the occupied Arab territories.

Resolution N° 32/90 dated 23 December 1977 on providing assistance to the immigrants due to warfare activities of June 1967.

Resolution N° 32/161 dated 19 December 1977 on permanent control over the national resources in the occupied Arab territories.

Resolution N° 33/12 of December 1967.

Resolution N° 33/113 dated 08 December 1978 condemning the Israeli practices against human rights in the occupied territories.

Resolution N° 34/52 dated 23 November 1979 about assistance to Palestinian refugees and requesting all governments to exert their best efforts to meet the United Nations Relief and Works Agency ( UNRWA ) expected requirements and requesting Israel to take immediate procedures in order to secure the return of all the immigrant.

Resolution N° 34/90 dated 12 December 1979 condemning continuous Israeli violations of human rights in the occupied territories.

Resolution N° 34/136 dated 14 December 1979 reiterating the rights of the whole and permanent sovereignty of Arab States and Peoples whose territories are under Israeli occupation on their natural resources.

Resolution N° 7/12 dated 29 July 1980 ( of the 7th Extraordinary Assembly ) requesting Israel to commence, before 15 November 1980, its withdrawal from all occupied Arab territories since June 1967.

Resolution N° 35/13 dated 3 November 1980 on supporting the assistance to the Palestinian refugees , extending the United Nations Relief and Works Agency ( UNRWA ) term until 30 June 1984 and requesting Israel to take immediate procedures in order to return all immigrant population.

Resolution N° 35/110 dated 5 December 1980 on reiterating the rights of the whole and permanent sovereignty of Arab States and Peoples whose territories are under Israeli occupation on their natural resources.

Resolution N° 35/122 dated 11 December 1980 condemning Israel for imposing a legislation implying changes of condition and nature of the occupied Syrian Arab Occupied Golan population.

Resolution N° 35/207 dated 16 December 1980 strictly condemns the Israeli aggression on Lebanon and the Palestinian, and reiterating, once more, the strict rejection of Israel’s decision to annex the Arab Jerusalem.

Resolution N° 36/226 dated 17 December 1981 considering the Strategic Cooperation Agreements signed between Israel and the USA on 30 November 1981 as an encouragement to Israel’s aggressive policy in the territories occupied since 1967 including Jerusalem and a threat to the whole regional security.

Resolution N° 36/147 dated 16 December 1980 condemning the Israeli policy against Palestinian students and teachers, schools and teaching institutions of the occupied Palestinian territories. Particularly shooting at the unarmed students, and the strict condemnation of Israel for its attempts and procedures to compulsorily impose the Israeli nationality on the Syrian citizens in the occupied Golan.

Resolution N° 36/146 dated 16 December 1981 concerning the refugee since 1967 and their inalienable right of return to their homeland.

Resolution N° 36/173 dated 17 December 1981 reiterating that all measures taken by Israel to exploit human and natural resources, fortunes and economical activities of the occupied Arab territories as illegal, and Israel is requested to immediately and ultimately terminate such measures.

Resolution of the 9th Extraordinary Session dated 5 February 1982 on complete boycott of Israel, condemnation of the USA veto as regards the Israeli decision to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration in the occupied Syrian Golan, and that such decision is a void aggressive action. It calls upon all State Members of UN to boycott Israel; politically, economically, military and diplomatically and severely condemns the American veto against the corresponding Security Council Resolution.

Resolution N° 42/69 dated 2 December 1987 concerning the provision of assistance to the immigrant Palestinians due to Israeli aggressive activities of 1967 and afterward.

Resolution N° 42/160 dated 8 December 1987 condemning Israel for changing the of physical, natural and demographic structure, organizational scheme and legal position of the occupied Syrian Golan in the Middle East, condemning the Israeli policy in the occupied territories, requesting Israel to completely withdraw and requesting all Member-Nations to stop providing Israel with assistance.

Resolution N° 43/58 dated 6 December 1988 on Israel’s policy concerning the human rights in the occupied territories, condemning Israel for its policies of annexation and settlement it is exercising in the occupied territories.

Resolution N° 43/57 dated 6 December 1988 on providing assistance to the immigrants due to Israeli aggressive activities of 1967 and thereafter.

Resolution N° 44/40 dated 4 December 1988 on calling for an international conference on peace in the Middle East. Condemning Israel’s policy in the occupied territories, requesting Israel to completely withdraw therefrom, requesting all Member-Nations to terminate providing Israel with assistance, proclaiming the need of acknowledging the Palestinian People’s right of self-determination and establishing its independent State.

Resolution N° 44/48 dated 8 December 1989 condemning Israel for its policies of annexation and settlement it is exercising in the occupied territories, reiterating anew that the 4th Geneva Convention is applicable on the Arabs detained by it, and condemning the Israeli practices concerning the human rights in the occupied territories. .

Resolution N° 44/47 dated 8 December 1989 concerning the return of the population, refugees and immigrants since 1967.

Resolution N° 45/74 dated 11 December 1990 condemning Israel for its policies of annexation and settlement and the procedures it takes against civil and teaching freedoms , expelling the Palestinian chiefs, condemning the Israeli practices concerning the human rights in the occupied territories, reiterating anew that the 4th Geneva Convention is applicable on the occupied territories.

Resolution N° 45/73 dated 11 December 1990 concerning the return of the population, refugees and immigrants since 1967 and providing them with assistance.

Resolution N° 45/83 dated 13 December 1990 condemning Israel for carrying on its occupation to the Syrian Arab Golan.

Resolution N° 46/47 dated 9 December 1991 requesting Israel to release the Arabs detained by it, condemning Israel for its policies of annexation and settlement, eliminating the Israeli practices concerning the human rights in the occupied territories, reiterating anew that the 4th Geneva Convention is applicable on the occupied territories.

Resolution N° 46/46 dated 9 December 1991 about the return of the population, refugees and immigrants since 1967 and providing them with assistance."

[L@mplighterM]

Well there you go again playing the circle game. WHERE DOES THE UN POINT TO A MAP DEFINING THE ALLEDGED LAND ISRAEL IS SUPPOSED TO WITHDRAW FROM???????????????????????????

I GIVE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Resolution N° 2443 dated 19 December 1968 concerning the establishment of a committee to investigate into the Israeli practices affecting the human rights of the population of the occupied territories.


WHERE IS THE REPORT?????????????????????


I could go on and on and on and on.


WHERE'S THE BEEF????????

[takeo]

You don't need a map to understand "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict" unless you are mentally disabled.
There was only one recent conflict before the un-resolution was made, in 1967, and Israel occupied the gaza, westbank and Eastern Jerusalem during that conflict.

[takeo]

"Resolution N° 2443 dated 19 December 1968 concerning the establishment of a committee to investigate into the Israeli practices affecting the human rights of the population of the occupied territories. "

You should ask the UN, they will probably still have it somewhere in their archives together with the many other silent prooves of Israeli crimes.

where is your beef? Your posts are quite vegetarian!

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
... If i would have been an Arab this forum would have turned me into an anti-semite, and i wouldn't have been interested in zionist propaganda in the first place...

Yes, hearing the truth can be very hurtful to many Arabs.

But you'll be surprised to know that one of our oldest members of this forum works for a major Arab media outlet and many of the readers of this forum are also Arabs.

Don't assume that the world is so black and white.

[takeo]

the truth? you mean anti-arab bashing and racism?
who is working for a major Arab media-organisation? Lomplighter???(i guess a newspaper for sm-minded Arabs, unless he has been sen by the mossad for some underground mission) All established members i know are anti-arab racists. (with the exception maybe of wheeler)

"Don't assume that the world is so black and white"

I don't assume this, the black-and-white world is your world, not mine, good Israel against terrorist animal Arabs.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
You don't need a map to understand "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict" unless you are mentally disabled.
There was only one recent conflict before the un-resolution was made, in 1967, and Israel occupied the gaza, westbank and Eastern Jerusalem during that conflict.


You still haven’t answered my question Mr.takeo. I’m not going to play your circle game. I’ll tell you this you haven’t a clue what’s happening. Your facts are distorted.
In order to understand resolutions you should begin at the beginning. If for example there’s a resolution made in let’s say in 1948 and another made in 1968 are you trying to tell me that the resolution of 1948 should be ignored????

Furthermore you have to study a resolution carefully in order to understand it the problem is that I believe they are only available in English and French.

After you have read resolution #46 you will find that your brothers haven’t lived up to that. So now you claim that Israel should obey resolution 242. By the way a resolution is just that nothing more nothing less. You were the one crying about Israel’s non- commitment regarding not living up to hundreds of resolutions well they cant. I’m certain that Israel would live up to all the resolutions if they could.

If I’ve done any Arab bashing it was not directed at those that are willing to coexist in harmony and the pursuit of freedom and democracy. Surely you do not expect me to have a high regard for terrorists and their supporters or sympathizers? I don’t because they are a treat to every fiber that holds civilization together.

Do I wish that they would disappear from the face of the earth? Yes I do !!!!!!!!

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
who is working for a major Arab media-organisation? Lomplighter???

ROFL!!!

:D :D :D

[L@mplighterM]

Wouldn't that be ironic GGGGGGGG L@mplighter comes out of the closet as an Arab and all along he was pretending to be a Jew.

I'll tell you this though there's a well known TV Evangelist whose father was an Arab and his brother a not so well know TV Evangelist claimed his father worked for the Mossad.

[takeo]

Lomplighter, you said that there wasn't a un-resolution demanding the withdrawel of Israel from the territories occupied in 1967, now, after i showed you the hard proove, you say that Israel can't comply to all un-resolutions. Is it so hard to admit that you were wrong?

the resolution of 1948 calling for the recognistion of Israel shouldn't be ignored, nor should the resolution of 1967 asking for the withdrawel be ignored. Almost all countries in the world, including most of Israel's neighbours, and the PA, recognise the resolution of 1948, yet Israel refuses to recognise the resolutions that call for the return of the refugees, the withdrawel and other resolutions. one can't pick one you like and choose to ignore the other.
Israel had plenty of opportunity to obey the resolutions, since 1967, yet it did choose to ignore them. israel has a choice, and if it chooses to obey, as the israeli left is proposing, it would be wellcomed by open arms by the rest of the worlds, as well as by Egypt, jordan, the PA, and even Syria and Libanon (the young assad declared that if a solution is found for the palestinian problem and the occupation of the Golan heights stop, he is willing to recognise Israel and stop support for hesbollah, and would push Libanon to do the same).


"If I’ve done any Arab bashing it was not directed at those that are willing to coexist in harmony and the pursuit of freedom and democracy. Surely you do not expect me to have a high regard for terrorists and their supporters or sympathizers? I don’t because they are a treat to every fiber that holds civilization together. "

you said at many occasions that ALL Arabs are terrorists, and you never made any distinction between the palestinian (or Arab) people and the terrorists.
israeli occupation and repression is the real treat to every fiber that holds the middleeast together.

[takeo]

I could imagine Lomplighter being an Arab working for an Arab agency trying to show how uncivilised and extremist Israel's supporters are! Sometimes i wonder if it is possible that so much hate can be real. But he exaggerated, we got you, Arab! :D

[L@mplighterM]

I might have put the figure at 100% give or take 1 or 2 but I'm willing to negotiate.

Let's say 75% +/- 24.999999999999999999999999999% is that better.

I've certainly not seen any massive demonstrations against Islamic Fundamentalism in the Arab world.

I'll tell you again US resolution 242 does not read the way you describe it. You're a clued out Arab trying to twist stuff read the god damn resoloution and shut up.