muslim zionists

[victot]

hey yall, i just read the supposed words of ossama bin laden, with his hatred of the west and america for giving the land of israel to the jewish people. i thought i would start a whole new thread, and you know, increase the victot glory, heh.

this guy who wrote this goes to my university, not exactly a friend, but an aquaintance. he is a member of hillel, and he is a muslim of indian descent.

he is 1 of the most pro-israel people i know. i gave his email to this woman i know who has her own weekly e-letter, about various issues relating to the middle east. here is the interview they had with eachother:

Dear Alireza,
"Victot" (instead of my real name) forwarded your address to me. I am the Director of the Mid East Education Team which seeks to present the facts about the Israel and her place in the Middle East with supportive integrity.
I would like very much to interview you for our weekly eletter.
I could do it by phone, but would prefer email since I have no tape
recording mechanism in the phone and may lose some of your answers.
Here is the core of what I would like to know!

1.Your name and a bit about who you are and where you are from
2. Why you show support for Israel even though you are a Muslim
3. Are you familiar with Sheik Palazzi?
4. Your message to the Jews
5. Your message to the Muslim and Arab world.
If you have time to grant me the interview I would be most grateful.
Thank you,
CR Schiloni

Dear Director,

Thank you very much for taking an interest in interviewing me for your newsletter. I am quite flattered. I apologize for taking a while to reply to your message, but I was studying for my midterms. I am more than willing to have an interview with you. If an online interview is what would be more preferable, then it could be arranged. However, I should to tell you that I wouldn’t be very much available in the next couple of weeks since I will have my face glued into my books gearing up for final exams.


I would also like to thank you for sending me a list of topics that you would like to discuss with me. Let me just give you some of my views and responses to the topics that you’ve sent me.


I am a first year student at Concordia University studying Electrical Engineering (I actually just started last September this year). I was born in Montreal (Jewish General Hospital to be exact). My parents are from India. They are divorced and I live with my dad.

I show support for Israel for two main reasons. The first reason is that I believe that the Jewish people have a right to a state of their own with Jerusalem at its capital by the teachings of Koran and by Islamic law. The second reason is that if you look at the history of this region, the Jews are the true victims and, even today, are willing to have peace with the Arab aggressors on every side of their borders. Let me just emphasize on those two.


I have read the Koran, and it clearly states that God had told Prophet Moses (P.B.U.H.) to lead the Hebrews out of Egypt and bring them to the Promised Land. It clearly states that God sent Prophet David (P.B.U.H.) to create the Kingdom Of Israel, the Homeland for the Jews. The Koran also states that the followers of the Prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H.) used to pray towards Syria (a term that was used for Jerusalem). Prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H.) then changed the direction of prayer, while in significantly Jewish populated city called Medina, towards Mecca. The Holiest site in Islam is Mecca, that is the direction where all Muslims pray. The Holiest site in Judaism is Jerusalem, that is the direction where all Jews pray.

The second reason is that Israel has every right to exist if you look at history carefully. The Jews always kept Jerusalem as their holiest site even though many of them were exiled by the Roman Empire and renamed the Holy Land Palaestina, which is where the name Palestine is derived from. Even then, a significant Jewish population has stayed in the Holy Land all through 3 millenniums. The Jews maintained a significant population and presence in the Palestine throughout the four centuries of the Ottoman Empire, a Muslim Empire (where, from my point of view, they were treated with more respect than any other empire that ruled Palestine). The first Zionist settlement in Israel was in the very early 1900’s, during Muslim rule by the Ottoman Empire of Palestine. The Ottoman’s, who were basically Turks not Arabs, allowed them to settle in Palestine since the place they were settling in was mostly desert. The Ottoman’s were later on surprised to see how these Jewish immigrants could take a dessert’s land and make it fertile.


Even after the Ottoman Empire fell, quite a few Arab leaders supported the Zionist movement. One them was King Feisal Hussein of Iraq and Syria 1919. Unfortunately later on due to his expulsion from Syria by the French and the influence of other Arab leaders, his attitude later became hostile. It was mostly Syria who hustled other Arab leaders into being hostile against the Zionist movement since to the Syrians, Palestine belongs to them.


Out of British Mandate Palestine, an entire region was closed to Jewish Settlement which is now called the Arab Kingdom of Jordan. Even then the U.N. decided that the Arabs needed more land and gave them a very generous portion of Palestine. The new Jewish State mostly got unfertile desert land while the Arabs got the prosperous lands. The Arabs refused and five nations invaded the new Jewish State. They attacked the new Jewish state 3 times, and each time they failed.


The majority of who have claimed to be refugees had no need to do so. Over 68% of all the Arabs who fled Palestine and became refugees never even saw a single Israeli soldier. They fled because the other Arabs told them too. The Arab nations, even today, use the Palestinian refugees as a political pawn. The Arab nations, especially Saudi Arabia (a country whose citizens are spoiled with an unbelievably large amounts of welfare and whose unemployed find themselves to prestigious to work in low class jobs which forces the country import six million people to take low class jobs), could have integrated these people into their own country. Instead, they used these people to create hatred towards Zionism and Israel. It has so far worked very well.


I can keep on going on for pages talking about how Israel and the Jewish People are the true victims, but I think I’ll stop here for now. My main point is that I personally and truly believe that both humanely and religiously Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish State with Jerusalem as its capital.


Oh by the way, yes, I am very familiar with Sheikh Professor Palazzi. I find it wonderful to see that a Muslim cleric would defend Israel as he has done and that there are so many more Muslims who are also doing the same. It’s great to see more and more Muslims saying no to fanaticism and fundamentalism, like these good people have been doing.


My message to the Jews is that you are not alone. You have Muslim friends. Many Jews don’t know that Israel and Turkey have military alliance. They also have very good trade relations. Many Jews also need to know that not every Muslim is against them. Only those who do not really know Islam are your enemies and mine.


My message to my fellow Muslims is to look to what the Koran and Islam really says about a Jewish State and the Jewish people. I urge every Muslim to read articles written by Sheikh Professor Palazzi and to fall under all this propaganda that fundamentalists are putting the Muslim population under.


To the Arabs of the world, me message is that it’s time to end this hatred. Israel is not your enemy. They are no threat to you. Only you can end this never-ending cycle of bloodshed. The Israelis just want their own state, which occupies less than 0.2% of all the land the Arabs rule over. Zionism is not racism. Even Martin Luther King Jr. defended Zionism. End the bloodshed and end it now.


Anyways, that was just a bit about my views and responses to those topics that you’ve sent me. I hope I have given some good details about my views about Zionism and Israel. Send me a message whenever you wish to conduct a thorough interview and how you want to conduct it. I look very forward to getting a response from you.



Sincerely Yours



Alireza

[MichaelC]

It does my heart good to hear these things from a Muslim. I thank you, Alireza, for your fine speech reprinted here on these pages. I am very glad to have seen this.

I truly want to believe that there are more people who think like you. I've never heard words like these from a Muslim, though you tell us that there are others.

I choose to believe you because unless I leave my heart open to the possibility that there are others, like you, who understand Israel and desire a respectful coexistence, then how can I ever live in peace with them in the end?

Today, I heard of brave students from Iran who are bucking their own government on its foreign policy and I hope that there are many others behind the spokespeople whose words I read.

I suppose that there is some doubt in my tone, but I assure you, I welcome your words, Peace Be Upon You.

[elke]

I truly want to believe that there are more people who think like you. I've never heard words like these from a Muslim, though you tell us that there are others.

Please see this from our own Ayesha :):

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&postid=28056&highlight=Israel#post28056

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by elke
Please see this from our own Ayesha :):

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&postid=28056&highlight=Israel#post28056

Thank you for pointing this out, Elke. I will pay special attention when Ayesha speaks.

[MGB8]

wow....that's all I can really say...wow...eloquently put...I wish that this was the belief of more Arabs...then the security concerns that make holding the WB to me a necessity wouldn't exist nearly as much...

[Moskal']

If all the muslims would think like that, 90% of world's problems would be solved. That shows us very clearly how education widens the horizont of a person.

The sad thing is that arabs in Israel are not integrated very well, having own ghetto schools etc.

Anyway, reading the lines above, I became an optimist.


P.S. It would be interresting to ask this person about his views on Indo-Pakistan conflict...

[richcrassus]

[i]

P.S. It would be interresting to ask this person about his views on Indo-Pakistan conflict... [/B]

It would be more interesting to ask this guy what he thinks of 'americas' war on terror.

[Batman]

Originally posted by victot


Alireza

Wow!
It's so good to read these words.
Thank you!!!!

[raven]

WOW: I know others have said this here..but thats what I was thinking when I read what this Moslem Man had to say. Im floored. How many people are there in Islam that believe this? Geeze...and Wow again.

Tell him HI....Tell him we appreciate. Tell him THANKS.

Im going waay overboard, I know. Im just stunned.

Does this attitude come from being a INDIAN Muslim? Or does it come from his sect (whatever it is) of Islam? Where? How come? Why? I wanna know.

Wish him good luck on his exams. (that will be the best way to express friendhsip)...The Best.

[muslimvoice]

hello to everyone on this forum,

I accidentally found this site, and ever since I have been visting it regularly. I enjoy listening to other people's views, regardless of how radical they are, or how much I disagree with them.

I would infact be naive enough to say that debating and exchanging views amongst us ordinary people, is probably a possitive step forward, considering the political problems that we are facing these days.

I have to admit that after 9/11 I have been specially drawn to politics and especially an interest to visit forums and other sites that voice the opinions of people that you might say are not too common in this part of the world.

The one common concern that I have been hearing on this site and others such as www.danielpipes.org, is that lets say pro-US or pro-Israel voices are saying 'where are the moderate muslims' or where are those muslims who should voice their immediate outrage at 'palestenain suicide bombings', and other such concern, that could possibly lead (and which probably has) to the genralization that basically the arab/muslim world are a bunch of facists who want to rule the world, driven by their religion and fanatics like usama bin laden, ayatollah khomeini, etc, etc, etc

offcourse I was sort of not shocked (but a little susrpised) about the reaction to Alireza's views. Do most pro-isreal people (hardline or moderate) trully believe that there are no Muslims/arabs who look at the israeli/palestenain objectively and try to debate based on reason and fact, and give the israelis the benefit of the doubt to say the least?

So I have decided that the least I can do to contribute to this debate, is to show you my views, and hopefully make you believe that there are many other muslims who think like Alireza, and hopefully I can make other 'moderate' muslims speak out or direct you to other sites that convey moderate muslim opinion.

So here goes:

1. I live in a country in the ME called United Arab Emirates
2. I was born Muslim (but I dont give a hoot for Islam or any other religion). Please don't hold this against me. I am not some sort of 'convert' who after discovering the evils of Islam, disassociated myself with it. Believe me, there are a lot of muslims that I know, who don't seem to know the first thing about Islam, but when defending their political view, rush to Islam to justify it. My view is that I don't need a religion to tell me how to live my life, so I know less about Islam than probably some non-muslims. I chose the name 'Muslimvoice' just to attract attention on the forum.
3. Ethnically I am Iranian.
4. I spent my whole life in the UAE except 6 years in the US for college. I belive that these were very important years that shaped my personality, ideology, and values.
5. I am a strict believer in democracy in its purest from.
6. On the Israeli/palestenain problem, I have to admit that it is a very complicated issue for me. I am sure that I don't let my background monopilize my views, that is I don't feel that I have to take the pal's side on any or every issue just because I am muslim/Iranian/live in arab country, or whatever. I look at it as a political problem, not a religious one.
7. I have nothing against jews. I have known a lot of jews

I would love to present my views in this forum and hope that it can be of value. I thank the people who started this site, as I believe that debate is the fundemental step of promoting understanding, tolerance in the face of the worst conditions.

Talk to everyone soon

[MGB8]

MV,

Welcome to the board.

I can only respond to your question by stating that for me, Alireza's comments were the first time I had heard anything of the sort.

You have to understand that Israel has a "bunker mentality" - mainly because its being attacked on all sides.

Europeans attack Israel with total disregard for their hypocrisy (for example France and Germany's very recent bargaining to fund Saddam Hussein, pre-Bush43, who not only attacked others for gain but used chemical weapons on Shiite muslims and Kurds in his own country, and murdered his own son-in-law.

The conference on human rights was just an Israel hating party.

The phrase "zionism is racism" has been ressurected.

The "occupation" has been declared "illegal" by Kofi Annan, head of a supposedly impartial agency, when under UN Law and the Geneva convention NEITHER the Israeli control of the WB or the Jewish Settlements in it are illegal.

Israel is boycotted by liberal acadmics, including self-hating Jews.

In Egypt they re-run the "protocols of the Elders of Zion", Mein Kompf is a best seller in the arab world, Al-Jazeera brings up the "blood libel issue," Arafat denies that the Temple was in Jerusalem (despite clearly recorded Roman Jewish and Christian history.)

Do you think Israel wants to be put in this situation?? On the one hand, giving up the land not only has religious internal difficulties, but MUCH MORE IMPORTANT, its is a HUGE strategic/military defense problem - it puts Israel in a horrible position of there is another war, and Israel cannot just assume one wont happen.

OTOH, its has taken over land where the majority population isn't just non-Jewish, but has been taught that Israel doesn't have a right to exist. And, these people DO NOT want a state of their own as much as they want the LAND they are currently on to be under Muslim control.

Its sticky, and its hard, and voices like these are rare.

[judicial meanz]

Originally posted by victot
hey yall, i just read the supposed words of ossama bin laden, with his hatred of the west and america for giving the land of israel to the jewish people. i thought i would start a whole new thread, and you know, increase the victot glory, heh.

this guy who wrote this goes to my university, not exactly a friend, but an aquaintance. he is a member of hillel, and he is a muslim of indian descent.

he is 1 of the most pro-israel people i know. i gave his email to this woman i know who has her own weekly e-letter, about various issues relating to the middle east. here is the interview they had with eachother:

Dear Alireza,
"Victot" (instead of my real name) forwarded your address to me. I am the Director of the Mid East Education Team which seeks to present the facts about the Israel and her place in the Middle East with supportive integrity.
I would like very much to interview you for our weekly eletter.
I could do it by phone, but would prefer email since I have no tape
recording mechanism in the phone and may lose some of your answers.
Here is the core of what I would like to know!

1.Your name and a bit about who you are and where you are from
2. Why you show support for Israel even though you are a Muslim
3. Are you familiar with Sheik Palazzi?
4. Your message to the Jews
5. Your message to the Muslim and Arab world.
If you have time to grant me the interview I would be most grateful.
Thank you,
CR Schiloni

Dear Director,

Thank you very much for taking an interest in interviewing me for your newsletter. I am quite flattered. I apologize for taking a while to reply to your message, but I was studying for my midterms. I am more than willing to have an interview with you. If an online interview is what would be more preferable, then it could be arranged. However, I should to tell you that I wouldn’t be very much available in the next couple of weeks since I will have my face glued into my books gearing up for final exams.


I would also like to thank you for sending me a list of topics that you would like to discuss with me. Let me just give you some of my views and responses to the topics that you’ve sent me.


I am a first year student at Concordia University studying Electrical Engineering (I actually just started last September this year). I was born in Montreal (Jewish General Hospital to be exact). My parents are from India. They are divorced and I live with my dad.

I show support for Israel for two main reasons. The first reason is that I believe that the Jewish people have a right to a state of their own with Jerusalem at its capital by the teachings of Koran and by Islamic law. The second reason is that if you look at the history of this region, the Jews are the true victims and, even today, are willing to have peace with the Arab aggressors on every side of their borders. Let me just emphasize on those two.


I have read the Koran, and it clearly states that God had told Prophet Moses (P.B.U.H.) to lead the Hebrews out of Egypt and bring them to the Promised Land. It clearly states that God sent Prophet David (P.B.U.H.) to create the Kingdom Of Israel, the Homeland for the Jews. The Koran also states that the followers of the Prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H.) used to pray towards Syria (a term that was used for Jerusalem). Prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H.) then changed the direction of prayer, while in significantly Jewish populated city called Medina, towards Mecca. The Holiest site in Islam is Mecca, that is the direction where all Muslims pray. The Holiest site in Judaism is Jerusalem, that is the direction where all Jews pray.

The second reason is that Israel has every right to exist if you look at history carefully. The Jews always kept Jerusalem as their holiest site even though many of them were exiled by the Roman Empire and renamed the Holy Land Palaestina, which is where the name Palestine is derived from. Even then, a significant Jewish population has stayed in the Holy Land all through 3 millenniums. The Jews maintained a significant population and presence in the Palestine throughout the four centuries of the Ottoman Empire, a Muslim Empire (where, from my point of view, they were treated with more respect than any other empire that ruled Palestine). The first Zionist settlement in Israel was in the very early 1900’s, during Muslim rule by the Ottoman Empire of Palestine. The Ottoman’s, who were basically Turks not Arabs, allowed them to settle in Palestine since the place they were settling in was mostly desert. The Ottoman’s were later on surprised to see how these Jewish immigrants could take a dessert’s land and make it fertile.


Even after the Ottoman Empire fell, quite a few Arab leaders supported the Zionist movement. One them was King Feisal Hussein of Iraq and Syria 1919. Unfortunately later on due to his expulsion from Syria by the French and the influence of other Arab leaders, his attitude later became hostile. It was mostly Syria who hustled other Arab leaders into being hostile against the Zionist movement since to the Syrians, Palestine belongs to them.


Out of British Mandate Palestine, an entire region was closed to Jewish Settlement which is now called the Arab Kingdom of Jordan. Even then the U.N. decided that the Arabs needed more land and gave them a very generous portion of Palestine. The new Jewish State mostly got unfertile desert land while the Arabs got the prosperous lands. The Arabs refused and five nations invaded the new Jewish State. They attacked the new Jewish state 3 times, and each time they failed.


The majority of who have claimed to be refugees had no need to do so. Over 68% of all the Arabs who fled Palestine and became refugees never even saw a single Israeli soldier. They fled because the other Arabs told them too. The Arab nations, even today, use the Palestinian refugees as a political pawn. The Arab nations, especially Saudi Arabia (a country whose citizens are spoiled with an unbelievably large amounts of welfare and whose unemployed find themselves to prestigious to work in low class jobs which forces the country import six million people to take low class jobs), could have integrated these people into their own country. Instead, they used these people to create hatred towards Zionism and Israel. It has so far worked very well.


I can keep on going on for pages talking about how Israel and the Jewish People are the true victims, but I think I’ll stop here for now. My main point is that I personally and truly believe that both humanely and religiously Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish State with Jerusalem as its capital.


Oh by the way, yes, I am very familiar with Sheikh Professor Palazzi. I find it wonderful to see that a Muslim cleric would defend Israel as he has done and that there are so many more Muslims who are also doing the same. It’s great to see more and more Muslims saying no to fanaticism and fundamentalism, like these good people have been doing.


My message to the Jews is that you are not alone. You have Muslim friends. Many Jews don’t know that Israel and Turkey have military alliance. They also have very good trade relations. Many Jews also need to know that not every Muslim is against them. Only those who do not really know Islam are your enemies and mine.


My message to my fellow Muslims is to look to what the Koran and Islam really says about a Jewish State and the Jewish people. I urge every Muslim to read articles written by Sheikh Professor Palazzi and to fall under all this propaganda that fundamentalists are putting the Muslim population under.


To the Arabs of the world, me message is that it’s time to end this hatred. Israel is not your enemy. They are no threat to you. Only you can end this never-ending cycle of bloodshed. The Israelis just want their own state, which occupies less than 0.2% of all the land the Arabs rule over. Zionism is not racism. Even Martin Luther King Jr. defended Zionism. End the bloodshed and end it now.


Anyways, that was just a bit about my views and responses to those topics that you’ve sent me. I hope I have given some good details about my views about Zionism and Israel. Send me a message whenever you wish to conduct a thorough interview and how you want to conduct it. I look very forward to getting a response from you.



Sincerely Yours



Alireza


Bless his heart! I could like this guy.

[muslimvoice]

Thanks for your response MGB8


you want another surprise...read this article

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2003/February/Iraq/index.html


peace

[Am Yisrael]

This is a brilliant thread! People on this board should start thinking before they condemn Muslims or Arabs as a whole. Its not right. There are still people who favour Israel that are Muslim descent and some even support her. I give my full gratitude and thanks to those from Islamic descent who rise with their voices of support for Israel. :)

[elke]

Welcome to the IsraelForum, MuslimVoice!

To be perfectly honest, I am more surprised that there aren't more Muslims like this than that there are some - especially since most of my personal experiences with Muslims have been very good.

MuslimVoice, what is in your opinion, the reason that there are relatively few Muslims who believe that much of this conflict can be resolved to the relative satisfaction of the majority of people on both sides?

[muslimvoice]

Thanks elke,

you asked an intresting question

MuslimVoice, what is in your opinion, the reason that there are relatively few Muslims who believe that much of this conflict can be resolved to the relative satisfaction of the majority of people on both sides?

I think that I can best answer that if we look at whether a typical muslim debates this problem 'outside the conflict' or 'inside the conflict'.

Bacause the phrase you mentioned 'relative satisfaction of the majority of people'....this depends on what satisfactory is, which I think depends on what I mentioned in the paragraph above.

If you look at the israel/palestenian from 'outside the conflict', then you are not really concerned with the fairness of the peace deal, you basically think, if there is peace, then offcourse you have security, stability, etc. for the region, no more suffering for Israeli / PAL people....

If you look at the israel/palestenian from 'inside the conflict', then you are concerned about issues such as occupation, UN resolutions, suicide bombings, .......never ending list...

I believe that even though most muslims think that they look at the isreal/pal issue from 'inside the conflict', they don't they look at it 'outside the conflict'.

This is specially true for those "muslim" countries that clearly dont see any threat from Isreal, including ARAB countries.

So if the conflict ends, to most mulsims (subconciously) I don't think that the issue will be what the peace deal would be....

I mean come on...it is even difficult...how many people you know really look at facts, history, balanced views and then form a final opinion..

So those Muslims will be happy to see the conflict end rather than how.....offcourse I am assuming that radical steps will not be taken as a means to an end.....like mass expulsion or an attack on Israel



I think that even though

[Am Yisrael]

Hmmm interesting! So what is the reason for the large gap between "outside the conflict" persperctive and "inside the conflict" perspective? Is it due to emotions or beliefs that cause an "inner conflict" perspective to exist, or is it simply because of a never ending cycle of violence that prevents people having alternative views? Or both maybe?

Your statement is very debatable but im understanding of your view. I dont think people can be put into two seperate generic groups of thought regarding the conflict. I think there is a degree of both "inside" and "outside" perspective, for peoples views of the conflict.

Emotions and beliefs will always reign over logic thinking when analysing a conflict (for most humans anyway)

[muslimvoice]

Am Yisrael

I think that you pretty much nailed it in the first para. The problem I think, for atleast people who stand on neutral ground, is that you have INFORMATION OVERLOAD when it comes to the day-to-day events of the conflict. This would not happen w/o constant voilence even if a peace deal was not to be reached fairly soon.

What I mean by people who stand on neutral ground is exactly those people who look at the 'outer perspective'. People who do not have much to gain or loose from the outcome of the fairness of a peace deal.

Why I am trying to get at, is this question:

Would it help Israel, if its perception of its REAL ENEMIES were narrowed down from lets say the 'muslim world' to only those critical elements in the PAL's camp (such as Hamas, etc.) and OK lets say hezbollah, etc. basically those entities (rather than states) that clearly call for the destruction of Israel.

Isreals policy to me when its comes to security is this:

"The best defence is offence."

OK I understand why whether I think its right ot wrong. So you got things like:

pre-emptive targetted killing
buffer zones, like golan heights, incursions, etc.

But do you think that Israel can consider the fact that history will does teach nations/people a lesson. Terrorism has to be dealt with whether the PAL's have a state or not. But do you think that countries like Syria, Lebanon, Egypt trully will consider attacking and destroying Israel "for the sake of destroying Israel". I just dont think that can happen because they have way too much to loose and Israel clearly has the greater military capability.

I am not a military expert hence I am not sure what kind of risk Israel would be subjected to for "pulling back". But could that be a crucial first step that Israel could take?

So coming back to that argument, maybe, just maybe Israel can feel safer that it thinks it is, if it does not have to worry about people/regimes who just use the Israel/PAL problem to get to their own agendas:

perfect example: Iran

or regimes that have to balance the public opinion of their people with the level of explicitness that they can say to Israel:

'we both have made mistakes in the past, we dont have a problem with you, our people need time and 'peace' to understand'

perfect example: Egypt

but history does change thought process, don't you think. In the beginning arabs attacked Isreal, now you have some peace treaties.

Do I make sense or am I going to get kicked of this forum!

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by muslimvoice
[B]What I mean by people who stand on neutral ground is exactly those people who look at the 'outer perspective'. People who do not have much to gain or loose from the outcome of the fairness of a peace deal.

Why I am trying to get at, is this question:

Would it help Israel, if its perception of its REAL ENEMIES were narrowed down from lets say the 'muslim world' to only those critical elements in the PAL's camp (such as Hamas, etc.) and OK lets say hezbollah, etc. basically those entities (rather than states) that clearly call for the destruction of Israel.

Muslim Voice,

Ok, I suppose it would. But its not a true statement. Only small amounts of Israelis condemn Islam as a whole. Look at Turkey! There is a big freindship between Israelis and Turks. One of the best voted footballers by Turkish public two years ago was an international Israeli striker (Haim Revivo).

The statement mentioned could also work from the Palestinians and neighbouring Arabs aswell for this to work. The problem is that the Palestinian majority are supportive of terror attacks within Israel. As long as their majority collective beliefs of Israel as the "real enemy", then Israelis will also continue to view Palestinians as a whole non-peacefull. If some Palestinians show to Israelis that they are against the attacks, then maybe Israelis will start to stop being against Palestinians as a whole. The problem is that we never hear of these Palestinians because of their lives being endangered.


But do you think that Israel can consider the fact that history will does teach nations/people a lesson. Terrorism has to be dealt with whether the PAL's have a state or not. But do you think that countries like Syria, Lebanon, Egypt trully will consider attacking and destroying Israel "for the sake of destroying Israel". I just dont think that can happen because they have way too much to loose and Israel clearly has the greater military capability.

They have tried to in the past. But their is a difference between "wantng to" and "doing", and yes, you are right! They wont attack Israel because of its advanced military, but if Israel "loosens" its military, who knows what will happen! Thats why Israel is in a tough situation


I am not a military expert hence I am not sure what kind of risk Israel would be subjected to for "pulling back". But could that be a crucial first step that Israel could take?
Pulling back out of the West Bank? Its been a thought and it would have happened. Israel wont give back anything until its sure that her people live without terror attacks. Israel has continually tried to reason with the Palestinians, but their leader continues to choose fighting rather than a peace deal. That is why many people think the Palestinians are a "manufactured" people on the spearhead of neighbouring hostile Arab countries. Yasser Arafat KNOWS that if he stops the intifada then Israel will resume peace talks. He hasnt even lifted a finger to try and stop attacks.



but history does change thought process, don't you think. In the beginning arabs attacked Isreal, now you have some peace treaties.
True, but people are begining to feel as if those "peace" deals are just pieces of paper. Israelis cant take the chance to lower its military capability for these peace deals. Im happy that Eygpt has at least shown that they are asking for a peacefull way to resolve this situation. But I cant help to forget WHY the peace deal was brought about.


Do I make sense or am I going to get kicked of this forum!
No of course you are making sense. These debates are fun. If you start acting from "inside the conflict" then people will start kicking you about. As long as you stick to valid reasoning arguements then you will be alright! :)

P.S. Welcome to Israel Forum! :D

[elke]

Not to barge into this interesting discussion, but it also seems to me that historic context is lacking, for the "inside view". I like that definition "inside view" and "outside view" :cool:

We hear that the Egyptians, for example, are under the impression that they actually won the Yom Kippur War. Coming from the hornet's nest of deliberate misinformation, I can see how these kinds of beliefs would affect the attitudes of the general population. History is not a strong point for most people, certainly not for poorly educated people, which ultimately affects even those who have access to the full information. Yet it is history that defines how nations act, just as it is our personal experiences that color how individuals act.

What do you guys think? Is there something that can be done on this? Or do you think that it's not a major issue?

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by elke
Not to barge into this interesting discussion, but it also seems to me that historic context is lacking, for the "inside view". I like that definition "inside view" and "outside view" :cool:

We hear that the Egyptians, for example, are under the impression that they actually won the Yom Kippur War. Coming from the hornet's nest of deliberate misinformation, I can see how these kinds of beliefs would affect the attitudes of the general population. History is not a strong point for most people, certainly not for poorly educated people, which ultimately affects even those who have access to the full information. Yet it is history that defines how nations act, just as it is our personal experiences that color how individuals act.

What do you guys think? Is there something that can be done on this? Or do you think that it's not a major issue?

History is of great importance. Yes the case is that people tend to "pick" the historical events that they would like to hear and disregard the rest. Some even twist historical events (like Eygptians view of the Yom Kippur war). Those who view the conflict from an "inside" perspective tend to use history as a strong "tool". My view is that beliefs are more important due to this. Historical events are merely "tools" to go with what one believes.

There isnt a solution that I can come up with to prevent historical events being used as a "tool" for conflicts. The best that I can come up with is to teach a new generation ALL historical events or NO historical events. Why doesnt the UN (or a similar globalisation organisation) make school text books for everyone in the world? :D

[Isiah 2:4]

Originally posted by Am Yisrael
Why doesnt the UN (or a similar globalisation organisation) make school text books for everyone in the world? :D


Sorry mate, its a good idea, but do you think that the Arab countries would want their children to be taught global truths?

Similarly, im not sure the American governement would be too keen.

Each country likes to tell its own truths, in order to keep its country in check.

The only time the earth will ever have a united ideology about anything is if aliens invade. Then we can work together to defend the human race. :D

[Batman]

Originally posted by muslimvoice
Am Yisrael

I think that you pretty much nailed it in the first para. The problem I think, for atleast people who stand on neutral ground, is that you have INFORMATION OVERLOAD when it comes to the day-to-day events of the conflict. This would not happen w/o constant voilence even if a peace deal was not to be reached fairly soon.

What I mean by people who stand on neutral ground is exactly those people who look at the 'outer perspective'. People who do not have much to gain or loose from the outcome of the fairness of a peace deal.

Why I am trying to get at, is this question:

Would it help Israel, if its perception of its REAL ENEMIES were narrowed down from lets say the 'muslim world' to only those critical elements in the PAL's camp (such as Hamas, etc.) and OK lets say hezbollah, etc. basically those entities (rather than states) that clearly call for the destruction of Israel.

Isreals policy to me when its comes to security is this:

"The best defence is offence."

OK I understand why whether I think its right ot wrong. So you got things like:

pre-emptive targetted killing
buffer zones, like golan heights, incursions, etc.

But do you think that Israel can consider the fact that history will does teach nations/people a lesson. Terrorism has to be dealt with whether the PAL's have a state or not. But do you think that countries like Syria, Lebanon, Egypt trully will consider attacking and destroying Israel "for the sake of destroying Israel". I just dont think that can happen because they have way too much to loose and Israel clearly has the greater military capability.

I am not a military expert hence I am not sure what kind of risk Israel would be subjected to for "pulling back". But could that be a crucial first step that Israel could take?

So coming back to that argument, maybe, just maybe Israel can feel safer that it thinks it is, if it does not have to worry about people/regimes who just use the Israel/PAL problem to get to their own agendas:

perfect example: Iran

or regimes that have to balance the public opinion of their people with the level of explicitness that they can say to Israel:

'we both have made mistakes in the past, we dont have a problem with you, our people need time and 'peace' to understand'

perfect example: Egypt

but history does change thought process, don't you think. In the beginning arabs attacked Isreal, now you have some peace treaties.

Do I make sense or am I going to get kicked of this forum!

I disagree with you that Egypt is not a REAL DANGER. The PRoblem with the Islamic teachings of HUDNA (http://www.pmw.org.il/report-31.html) has a historic foundation in the ARab world thinking.

Additionally, Egypt has shown its willingness to go into war with Israel by preparation and certainly the latest Egyptian State sponsored Jew hating Television shows such as HORSEMAN WITHOUT A HORSE (http://www.vibrani.com/Winston18.htm) shows that Israel is still facing REAL DANGER FROM EGYPT.


EXcerpt:"When the Arabs in Israel and Arafat's 'Palestinian Authority' rise up in coordination with the terrorist Hezb'Allah massed on Israel's northern border in Syrian-controlled Lebanon and the 10 Terrorist organizations based in Syria, Mubarak may use that chaos to move his troops into the Sinai. He will use the pretext and claim that he is only doing this as a precaution to protect his own people. But, Israel will then have to call up their reserves thereby thinning out their forces to face the Egyptian threat on Israel's Southern border. No one has forgotten the Egyptian trick of pretended training exercises while secretly assembling their forces for a sneak attack on Yom Kippur in 1973 while Syria attacked from the North.

Getting the Egyptian citizenry into a proper frame of mind-rage by viewing daily the forged Jewish plot for world domination would also make them readily accept Mubarak's moving troops into the Sinai in preparation for war. The fact that the Egyptian people have gotten used to their cold peace with Israel and this move puts the whole country in harm's way for retribution, is probably Mubarak's primary motivation at priming their hate against Israel.

I would guess that Mubarak is out of control, not that he has ever really been in control - despite State Department planning to make Egypt the proxy of America. The same can be said for Saudi Arabia who provided the funding and impetus for this film propaganda for Mubarak's benefit. The Arab world always resented Anwar Sadat's decision not to lose more Egyptian troops in wars against Israel.

Nations like Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia always knew that if they were ever to be successful in defeating Israel, they would need Egypt's large army and huge stockpile of arms purchased from America with American tax-payers' dollars.

The U.S. government formerly asked Mubarak to cancel the series, knowing it would cause rage and incite the Egyptian people - as well as the other countries where the satellite beams reach. Mubarak and his government representatives rejected the American's request - with impunity. How could they? America has given Egypt 'only' $48 Billion in American tax-payers' money with which Egypt has purchased massive quantities of high tech weapons. The $48 Billion bought nothing from Egypt. No cooperation. No consideration. No loyalty. And least of all - no obedience.

Their stockpiles of weapons are an irresistible lure for the macho Arab countries to go to war. If the weapons are there, they will be used - just as Saddam is almost certain to use his WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction).

The refusal by Egypt to cancel the Saudi-funded program of hatred is an indicator that neither Egypt nor Saudi Arabia can be relied upon by America. Remember that the Terrorist hijackers of 9/11 were 14 Saudis and 5 Egyptians.

The next question is: Will the U.S. Congress cut off Egypt's funding or equipment transfers just as they have NOT cut Arafat's funding? Another question is: How deep is Egypt's connection and coordination with Iran and Syria?"

[yoyo]

The situation with Egypt is indeed a dangerous one. A "moderate" country that paint the most dovish Israeli (and electoral losser ;)) as a nazi in its gouvernement-own paper can only remind us that "moderate" is compared to a islamic extremist and not to highly vocal political party in the West.

Egypt was the leading voice in the Durban Conference. But they are only the tip of the iceberg. According to the Jewish Chronicle paper (UK) Mein Kampf, arabic version, is the best seller to the muslims community in the UK.

However, I do understand there is some zionist muslims but I suspect they are a tiny minority or with a inauditible voice.

A question to muslim on this board that recognize the right to exists of Israel: how much are you excluded from the community for your views?

[redcake]

Muslim Voice - While your stance might seem to be a bit more moderate then most, and you seem to believe in a coexistance... I'm not sure you're speaking with a voice that's all that different then what we've already heard. While reasonable, you're still sounding critical of Israel... and I think a lot of us were warmed by this thread because we want to hear unconditional support for a change.... no longer is it sufficient to hear "I support Israels right to exist BUT....."!!! There are several Jewish, and Israeli groups that exist solely to support the cause of the Palestinians, taking a strong voice in opposition against Israel. Where is the Muslim support of Israel? Where are the Muslim versions of these same organizations working to support Jews? Sure there is diversity in the thinking within the Arabic world.... but it's with marginal effect or energy. It's with tolerance for the antisemetism, and pro-violence contigent. Muslims never march in support of Israel, they rarely publish their words defending Israel anywhere but on the internet...so by acting in such a passive manner it gives the illusion that the Arab world as a body gives credibility to the claims against Israel without any desire to preserve the integrity of the Palestinian cause. Support for Israel tends to come with a backhanded critical word or two for the Jewish State, as if anything too kind needs to be justified. So a reasonable voice hardly sounds as heart warming as a strong unconditional voice of support at this point.

[yoyo]

From this Palazzi zionist immam

What the Qu'ran really says (http://www.rb.org.il/Islam-Israel/commentary/islamcom1.htm)
by Shaykh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi

[Canajew]

Another diamond in the rough

"The Koran Says the Jews Would Return to their Land"
By Naomi Klass Mauer
JewishPress.com | April 25, 2003


Sheikh Abdul Palazzi, professor at the Research Institute for Anthropological Studies in Rome, was in the United States recently guest lecturing at Yale University on the possibility of bringing democracy to the Arab world. Having read numerous items about the sheikh, we were interested in meeting him. We caught up with him in New York as he was preparing to return to Italy.

Jewish Press: Tell our readers a little about yourself.

Palazzi: I was born in Rome 42 years ago to a Syrian mother and an Italian father. In addition to teaching at the Research Institute, I also teach a post-doctoral course on Middle East studies, I’m the secretary general for the Italian Muslim Association and the Muslim chair of Islam-Israel Fellowship at the Root and Branch Association.

Do you think democracy can ever come to the Arab world?

The United States has a real opportunity now to accomplish just that. The best proof is Afghanistan. Things are really turning around there and they can do the same thing in Iraq. After the first Gulf war ended the Emir was left in place in Kuwait. Slavery is rampant in Kuwait, but no one tried to replace the Emir with a real democracy, or to abolish slavery. Everything was left in place. But this time if the U.S. proves that it wants the globalization of democracy, it has a real chance to accomplish it in Arab countries. When you show the Arab world that you side with Arab leaders who kill them or enslave them, they lose all hope of change. An example is Arafat. When you build him up and the people know who he is, they have no hope of a change. I am terribly concerned that President Bush speaks of a Palestinian state. I am afraid that once this war with Iraq is won, the pressure on Israel to create a Palestinian state will be enormous. You cannot get rid of one terrorist state and then create a new one. And the Palestinian Authority will be worse, because they are the true allies of Saddam Hussein.

You know the terrorists always claim to be followers of the Koran.

The Koran is being misread. The Koran forbids mistreatment of Jews and the state is obligated to protect them. At the time of the Ottoman Empire Jews held positions in the government. The Koran says before the end of days the Jews will return to their land. At the end of World War One, Sharif Al Hussein, the leader of the Hashemite family and governor of Mecca said, when he saw the Jews returning to Palestine, “We are seeing what was foretold in the Koran. When others settled there the land stayed barren, but now the land recognizes its original sons and it is producing.”

It’s too bad the Palestinian Arabs don’t know that.

They can’t know it because these passages have been removed from their books. The PA selected only certain sources for their books. All of the proofs are deleted. But in other Islamic countries you do find all proofs in the Koran. You know, before 1967, Islamists referred to the Jews as Palestinians and the present-day Palestinians were called Jordanians. In Jerusalem, Imam Tabari, an important cleric, wrote an important book, “Lives of Prophets and Kings” He described the life of King Solomon and the Temple he built. Anyone who denies this not only denies history, but denies Islamic sources.

The Palestinian Arabs even deny that the Holy Temple ever stood on the Temple Mount.

I was part of an international delegation that visited Israel in 2000. The Wakf took us to visit Al Aksa. Right outside of the Dome of the Rock is a small chapel on the eastern side. “What is this place?” I asked. “It is the place where Solomon stood to dedicate the Temple,” was the reply. “Then why do you deny this?” I asked. With a smile I was told, “For political reasons.” Mecca and Medina are the holiest places for Islam. Jerusalem is shared with Jews and Christians. Why, according to Islam, did Mohammed go to Jerusalem? To meet all the prophets from other religions who worshiped there. Islam is faith in monotheism, faith in prophets, faith in humanity. The basic distinction is monotheism versus idolatry. And this concept it shares with Judaism.

This is just one of many instances of historical revisionism on the part of the Arabs.

Another example of history being forgotten concerns the 1919 agreement between Chaim Weizmann and King Faisel of Jordan and Iraq. The agreement said that the Jordan River was the border between the Jewish state and the Arab state. The Arabs did not oppose this. Then the British came and created Saudi Arabia, taking land from Jordan. So they told them to take some of the land back from the Jews. When the kingdom of Saudi Arabia was created, control of Mecca and Medina was thereby given to Wahabbism, the most primitive tribe of all. Islamic scholars were horrified. Then oil was discovered and they became all powerful and forced everyone to believe in Wahabbism and killed whoever didn’t. With the passing of years they became more sophisticated. Wahabbism in its original form is still practiced in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. It is their official religion.

Regarding the situation in Iraq, are you surprised by the way the French have acted?

Unfortunately, no. France has reached a new low level. They want the regime of Saddam to survive because they have a financial interest in him.

What about the Vatican?

Tariq Aziz was warmly welcomed by the Vatican and the Franciscan Monks prayed with him for Bush to repent. The pope approved the war against Milosevic – was he worse than Saddam Hussein?

We recall that the pope didn’t condemn the Arab gunmen who took over the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem last year.

No voice of dissent is heard inside the Catholic church. In the past there were many instances where bishops and cardinals voiced an opposite point of view. But not this time. The Franciscan priest inside the Church of the Nativity acted as if the Arabs were just seeking refuge from the Israelis. He is now visiting Italy and has such deep-rooted anti-Semitism that he is speaking out against Israel wherever he goes.

The Arab bishops who depend on their dictators for appointments are increasing inside the Vatican. The best bishops and cardinals are retiring, leaving a terrible vacuum. Cardinal Martini was an honorable and brilliant scholar from Milano. He said you cannot accept opinions of dictators in religious matters.

After his retirement he was sent to Jerusalem. He was accepted by the Latin Patriarchate only because the pope sent him, but they don’t like him and refer to him as “the Zionist.”

What is your view of the now discredited Oslo peace process?

Oslo was a basic mistake, and unless Israel takes steps to end it and publicly renounce it, we cannot expect the rest of the world to do so. When we in Italy try to stop the European Union from transferring money to Arafat, they answer us that even Israel is doing so. And why shouldn’t Bin Laden hope to be forgiven like Arafat was? Oslo abolished one of the basic principles of international law. If you are a terrorist, your crimes will not be forgiven. The world needs to be reminded of that.

* * * * *

The day after our interview a suicidal Arab terrorist blew up a bus in Haifa. A protest was immediately organized outside the PLO mission in New York by Rabbi Avi Weiss. Sheikh Palazzi, about to leave the country, joined Rabbi Weiss at that protest. It was the first time a Moslem sheikh took part in such a protest.

[jad]

Hello all.

This is my first post here; so let me start with introducing myself.

I'm Jad, and I'm 17. I'm half Lebanese on my father's side and half American on my mother's. Am Currently studying Accounting and Managment at the American University of Beirut.

Oh, I'm also Muslim... In case that makes a difference to all you readers out there.

Enough with the introduction part... Now I've been searching for web-communities that discuss the issue of Arab-Israeli conflict for awhile, and there it is! As I said earlier, this is my first post, so I'm basically gonna put down everything's on my mind, not a specific subject though.

Now I have read some of you posting comments and replies about Muslims and how aggressive and narrow-minded they are. They aren't!

In my personal opinion, I believe that there are two kinds of Muslims. But first, let me point out that not all Arabs are Muslims, and not all Muslims are Arabs. Now, back to Muslims...

Like I was saying, there are two kinds of muslims (in my point of view). There are those who believe in God and those who quiete honestly DON'T! Yes, do not be surprized. Those who pretend do to be Muslims, going around killing people and bombing Human lives, are maniacs who seriously need help!

I mean how the hell could a "Human Being" wrap himself up with bombs and kill hundreds of "innocent" human lives and at the same time convencing himself that this is "Jihad" and this would lead him directly to heaven, believing "still that suicider", that the Jews are the enemies of human kind, and are the enemies of God!

That's complete nonsence! I am born a Muslim. You are born a Jew. Does that mean I'm good you're evil? Does that mean that you're good and I'm evil?

We have to get out of this hopeless blood showering mascares! We do have to find a solution, we have to provide peace. Peace doesn't mean that Jews have the land and those "Palestinians" just go find another place. That doesn't even make sense! We have to provide an "EQUAL" chance for both parties. Arabs are not better than Jews, and Jews are not better than Arabs. I don't want to sound "Poetic" in some way or another, but we are all human beings and being born whether a Jew or an Arab doesn't mean nothing. It's the way you treat people which judges who you really are.

Back to what some of you posted in the forums earlier. Muslims are still living in the 1500s? I really find that funny in one way or another! You're looking at "some" muslims. It's like this modern arabic saying that goes like: "You don't know me, don't judge me". That's 100% true... Muslims and Arabs cannot be judged only by looking at that mentally illed portion that do support terrorism and provide proper monetary funding.

Now, I don't want to speak on behalf of the Muslims or Arabs... I want to speak on behalf of Lebanese. I'm lebanese, and to be honest there's no such thing as Arabic identity. Surprized? Oh, don't be. Arabs most of the times don't even agree on the silliest things. Arabs often gather at summits which end up by presidents sometimes fighting over meaningless issues! Arab governers suck. Arab governers are not elected neither supported by the Arab people and communities.

What Arab people really need is democracy. And I'm not alone saying that. There are millions of Arabs that truly want peace and truly want democracy and are eager to go down on streets and express myself.

I believe I understand what Jews are afraid for when they see "Arabs", again I say "some Arabs", burning down the flags of Israel and the United States of America and seeming to be so happy about it.

Oh well... Lack of democracy again. Don't be surprised; after all its all caused by the lack of democracy in "some" or let me say "most" Arab countries. I'm proud to say that Lebanese, more than any other country are allowed and have the freedom to speak what's on their mind. What has lack of democracy have to do with it? Well, when it comes to such regimes, those such as Saddam Hussein's... People there were afraid to even "not" hail to the "Leader"... The person found not to be chearing for Saddam in a special occasion, was dragged and executed infront all others. Yes... You already know that.

That's "Saddam", thats not Arabs of Muslims! I think I cleared that point out...

Like I mentioned before, this is my first post here in the forums, and this is more like personal thoughts from here and there. Again, nothing specific.

Thank you,

Jad

[Isiah 2:4]

Salam and Mazel Tov Jad, on your arrival in the Forum!

You have a great point which pretty much covers what i believe is needed in your region of the world. Yes, democracy and freedom and tolerance needs to come to the Arab world - and fundamentalists everywhere must realise that they are abusers of their faith - and of humanity.

However, like i have said before as regards to the modernisation of the societal and political structure of some Middle Eastern states - encouragement is fine, enforcement is folly.

Enforcing you ideals onto others, for whatever motives will always be seen as suspicious and arrogant, and if the U.S wants to do that unilaterally and in a hostile way in the Arab world, it will always bring disaster.

Shalom Alechayim sheli Haverim (bad transliteration???)

:D

[Communication]

Jad -merhaba!


MuslimVoice- khosh amadid!

:)

[danholo]

Hey Jad, Welcome!

So, I guess Syria doesn't have such a foothold on Lebanon after all. What do you think about the Syrian presence in Lebanon and how does it, if it does at all, effect people's lives over there? What about government?

Why hasn't Lebanon managed to regain the splendor it once was since democracy has re-emerged after a quarter-century of civil war? Or do you just need more time?

I hope you enjoy the forum and the various discussions here - and try to keep it together if some member results to lowly accusations or obscenities.

[elke]

Hi, Jad :)

I have to admit that thoughts and beliefs such as those expressed in your post, make hope possible - especially coming from the new generation!

Looking forward to hearing more from you soon! :cool:

[jad]

Hello Danholo...

Well, I'm impressed by how much you know about Lebanon and Syria although it was brief what you mentioned.

Concerning what you asked; the answer is yes. Yes, Syria "does" have influence on Lebanon. Actually, every Lebanese everywhere in Lebanon and outside, knows that the president here in Lebanon is elected or more like "placed" by the Syrians. That doesn't mean anything though. To us, the whole political scene and the politicians to be exact are corrupted and are pretty much screwed. Lebanon now has debts estimated for $30,000,000,000 due to politicians, specially those related to Syria; "which most are".Democracy has showed up though. The Lebanese people never settled for any "foreign" occupation. Here in Lebanon, there are many point of views. There are the Muslims and there are ofcourse the Christians. Now, both parties have agreed on the "Taef" which was signed from both sides, and which allowed
Syria -back in 1990- to enter Lebanon, in order to stop themascares and stop the civil war, to re-order the country, and ofcourse provide security and peace. It was given a 3-year time to do that.

In my own point of view, the agreement was not respected. Syrians entered the country, they took over most of the "active" economical resources, and they let in more than 2,000,000 Syrians into the country. This seriously affected the Lebanese economy, and clearly refreshed the Syrian.

I wanna point out that the "Taef" which I mentioned was mainly the agreement between Syria and the US. Both agreed that Syria enters Lebanon; and that was warmly welcomed by the rest of the Arabs, and all what the Lebanese (Muslims and Christians) had to do is just sign to stop the civil war that sadly ended the lives of thousand of Lebanese... It was the only solution. I also wanna mention that the civil war basically started because of the "Palestinian" refugees here in Lebanon. It all started in "Ain El Remmeneh" which is mainly the residence of Christians, when a Palestinian group blowed up a bus full of Christians. That was the start. And since the Palestinians were supported by the Muslims, the civil war started. Muslims and Christians against each other, Syrians and Palestinians against each other, Syrians and Christians against each other, "Lebanese" and "Israelis" against each other. Lebanon seemed to be reaching toward the end. Somehow the Lebanese people managed to get out of all of that, and cure the "deep" wounds which we had nothing to do with.I know thats pretty much complicated :) But I am trying to put that in the simplest form possible.

And Donholo, don't worry. I am not losing grip, and I "do" understand those who call Arabs names and have their bad point of view about them specially on this forum, but then again, am "LEBANESE" before I am anything else.

I'm glad to be having this "debate" or discussion if you want to call it.

Keep in mind that I am a student here in Lebanon, and I am not interested in any political point of view here, all this here is mainly my own point of view and I am not speaking on behalf of anyone, but I am sure that "most"

Lebanese here do want peace, they are only afraid of the other side. Just like the Jews want peace and are afraid.

I truly believe its only a matter of time.

I also thought of posting some photos of Lebanon here, I think most of you out there never even had the chance to see any of Lebanon's sites so here it is, some of which I took myself.

*Center Of Beirut After Renovations
http://www.libanmall.com/photos/leb/beirut11.jpg

*Arial View Of Beirut
http://www.libanmall.com/photos/leb/beirut10.jpg

*Jounieh
http://www.libanmall.com/photos/leb/jounieh10.jpg

*Beirut Marina
http://www.libanmall.com/photos/leb/beirut9.jpg

*Telefrique
http://www.libanmall.com/photos/cablecar1.jpg

*Christmas Decorations
http://www.libanmall.com/photos/xmas2.jpg

*Zahle
http://www.libanmall.com/photos/zahle11.jpg



I think that's enough :D

[elke]

Beautiful photos, Jad! :cool:

[Mercury]

Welcome to the forum, Jad!

I have a question concerning your post.


Originally posted by jad

Arab governers are not elected neither supported by the Arab people and communities.

What Arab people really need is democracy. And I'm not alone saying that. There are millions of Arabs that truly want peace and truly want democracy and are eager to go down on streets and express myself.


If the majority of arabs truly want democracy how come none (with a brief exception of Lebanon) came close to achieving it? It seems that even given the chance to vote they chose parties opposing democracy (like in Algeria). Not infrequently people in Egypt or Jordan indeed go down on streets. On such occasions, however, they always demand a tougher line on Israel from their goverments (usually war), but never peace or compromise. So where are those millions you talked about?

[Communication]

I don't know where our ME posters went, but I thought that this was an interesting article:

Jul. 13, 2003
A different face of Islam, By Melissa Radler

Advertisement

"Any plan that helps to create a terror state cannot be termed a peace plan," wrote Tashbih Sayyed in the May 30 edition of Pakistan Today, a moderate Muslim weekly published in southern California.

The Quartet-backed road map, he wrote, "will not only ensure the destruction of Israel, but will also sow the seeds of an eternal terror."

Sayyed, 61, a Muslim immigrant to the US and president of the Council for Democracy and Tolerance, has never hesitated to express his views. Born in India and raised in Pakistan, he spent his childhood in one of that country's notorious madrassas, where he learned the religiously sanctioned anti-Semitism of militant Islam.

"As a little boy, I thought all Jews should be killed," he says. As a young man, his virulent tirades against his purported enemy at a local radio school attracted the attention of a Pakistani Jew who quietly funneled him books on Jewish history and Israel, including Exodus by Leon Uris. When Sayyed took a closer look at the Koran, a different Islam was revealed to him: a religion of peace, free of the hatred that he argues has held his people back for centuries.

"I became vengeful, as if somebody had cheated me of my childhood, as if somebody had tried to make me a serpent when I was not a serpent. I blamed the mullahs and the clerics," he says.

Under Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, Sayyed headed Pakistan Television's current affairs department, where he was given an outlet to rail against Islamic extremism. When the fundamentalist leader Gen. Mohammed Zia-ul Haq took over the country's leadership, Sayyed found himself demoted, threatened with state-sponsored violence, and surrounded by anti-Semitic incitement. He emigrated to the US in 1980.

In California, however, Sayyed faces intimidation of a different kind by the leaders of Muslim organizations, many of them Saudi-financed, who he says use their adopted land's freedoms to spread their message of hate. As evidence of the leaders' success, Sayyed, who calls such groups as the Council on American-Islamic Relations and the Muslim Public Affairs Council "the most accomplished fifth column in America," notes that while his call for democracy in the Muslim world resonates with many of those who fled persecution, his backing of the Jewish right to self-determination and his abhorrence of anti-Semitism is met with hostility and allegations that the "Zionists" control his every move.

Sayyed begs to differ. "If I am Zionist-controlled, then the Koran is also Zionist-controlled," he says. "If speaking of American values is Zionism, then I am proud to be Zionist, and if doing what Osama does or Saddam does is Islam, then I am not a Muslim."

How widespread is militant Islam in America?
Most Islamic centers and mosques in the United States are controlled by militant Islamists committed to destroying the very nature of America. The Islamists don't want to destroy America; they only want to destroy the America that is not controlled by a militant version of Islam. They are creating fear in Muslims who live in America by teaching that America is controlled by Jews and Zionists, and they teach that Jews and Zionists are determined to destroy Islam.

So, the majority [of Muslims] in America is influenced by militant Islam. They may not be militant themselves, but they are not 100% free of the influence.

You've written that moderate Muslims constitute a silent majority in this country. How has the community responded to the views expressed in Pakistan Today?
I have great support, but they are very scared. The intimidation that comes from Islamism in America is tremendous. The lives of Muslims living in America are not governed by the constitution of America, by Jeffersonian principles; their lives are governed by a fascist Islamist state that has created itself within the most democratic country in the world.

I would have nothing against Islamists if they had believed in one nation under God when they came to America. But they do not believe in one nation under God. They do not believe in a nation in which non-Islamists are non-dhimmis [second-class citizens, namely Jews and Christians who live under Muslim rule].

Why hasn't this silent majority established more moderate groups?
me tell you a story. There is a gentleman who was supporting my newspaper - every few months he'd advance me $20,000 or so when the newspaper was short of money - until I appeared on 48 Hours and said something against [Sami] Al-Arian. [Al-Arian, a professor at the University of South Florida, was arrested in February on charges of financing terrorism, sponsoring suicide bombings in Israel, and using American academic and non-profit groups as fronts for Islamic Jihad.] This gentleman was the first person to call me and say, 'Brother, you have gone too far.' From that day on he never called me, and I never insulted myself by trying to reach him.

In other words, there isn't a silent majority when it comes to anti-Semitism.
No. In order to be politically correct, they say Israel is supporting the settlements, the occupation. But even if you solve all these problems according to their wishes, even if, God forbid, you say you'll go back to Germany or Poland - although Jews didn't come from there originally, and you said this just to make everyone happy - do you think that will solve the problem? It will not.

Hasn't interfaith dialogue yielded results?
There has been interfaith dialogue in America for at least the past 15 years. So why is there still anti-Semitism in the mosques in America? Why can't this dialogue translate into the hearts and minds of the Muslim masses? Those leaders who go and talk to rabbis and priests and say, 'We love, we love, we love,' why can't they come back to their parishioners and say, 'Our interpretations in the past were wrong; here is the right and rational interpretation of our holy book'? It is not being said.

Muslims here live under democratic rule. Hasn't that tempered the more radical views?

I had the same idea; that once people are educated, they will at least start using their analytical faculties. But the pre-Martin Luther era is almost exactly the same as today's Muslim era. Martin Luther opened the floodgates of debate within the community, which was a tradition in Judaism from day one. That's why Jews have survived 5,000 years of persecution, because a society that believes in debate on the inside cannot be killed from the outside.

Will reform come from within the Muslim world, or can others do anything to bring it about?
It cannot come from outside, especially for a society that has looked with suspicion at anything alien. The only way to influence [Islam] is to somehow create an institution that very subtly takes root within Muslim society.

What kind of institution?
If Americans love freedom, empower my kind of voice, and then these voices can grow into challenges. Why is it that every time I look at the White House or a senator's or congressman's office, every time I find an intern or employee who is Muslim, he is always connected to some Islamic center or mosque? What Frank Gaffney said was 100% right. [In February, Gaffney, head of the Center for Security Policy, was accused of bigotry and racism by Republican strategist Grover Norquist after criticizing White House staffers responsible for the administration's Muslim outreach for limiting official invitees to the heads of Islamic groups with links to terrorist organizations.] There are gatekeepers in the White House who are promoting Islamic radicals. So long as you call Islamic centers [for advice] on whom to invite to do American jobs, you will only get Osama bin Laden.

How do you explain the Muslim world's hatred of America, and how can that hatred be lessened?
America has never been able to establish a bridge between itself and the [Muslim] masses. America has very foolishly imposed one corrupt individual, like [Egyptian President Hosni] Mubarak, Haq or the Saudi kings, who have no credibility with the masses.

If America succeeds in connecting itself, subtly, with the grassroots in those countries, it will succeed in creating goodwill for itself, because America is essentially a good power, and goodness will show itself when it has translated itself into the welfare of the people. Once that is achieved, a mindset will evolve which will in turn herald the death of anti-Semitism, and affluence will provide the challenge to the clerics who feed the poverty-stricken mosques with hatred.

Is US support for the demonstrators in Iran an example of what the US should be doing in the region?
If America keeps going the way it is going, and supports Iranian dissent as Iranian dissent and not American dissent, I think this will be the first example of success.
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