"Barbarossa"? Are they kidding?

[Mediocrates]

Maritime expansion project code named "Barbarossa" plans to increase Turkey's presence in the Mediterranean and Aegean Seas • Erdogan calls Israel the "spoiled child" of the region • U.S. concerned about diplomatic rift with Israel • Both countries stand to lose financially from severed defense trade ties.

Turkey is reportedly planning to increase its presence not only in the Mediterranean Sea but also in the Aegean, Black, Adriatic and Red seas, and even in the Indian Ocean. The maritime expansion project has been code named "Barbarossa," a reference to legendary Ottoman admiral "Barbarossa" Hayreddin Pasha, who played a major role in expanding the Ottoman Empire during the time of the Sultan Suleiman "the Magnificent" in the mid-16th century.

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=1014

Barbarossa: the name of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union. Are they for real?

[johnvonneumann]

The original Barbarossa was the German Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_I,_Holy_Roman_Emperor) of the Hohenstaufen dynasty. He is famous above all as a charismatic and chivalrous knight and ... a crusader (he drowned at the beginning of the III crusade). I can hardly believe the Turks would name anything after him, this must surely be another German plot :rolleyes:

[Iacob]

Wasn't Barbarossa who was sent to Malta by the Sultan, didn't find and he returned back saying "Malta Yok" ie "There is no Malta!"

[dayag]

Operation Barbarossa was also the code name for Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union during World War II. An operation that failed and brought total disaster on Germany. May the Turkish operation fail as completely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

[Chris Keller]

Hayreddin and Aruj were two brothers of at least partly Greek heritage. These men were known by their red beards, hence the name Barbarossa. They are quite honored in Turkish history. They have no connection with either Emperor Frederick I or the Hitlerite invasion of the Soviet Union.

Some Turks are remembered by nicknames given them by Spanish or Italian opponents, such as "Mezzo Morto" (Half Dead) Hüseyin Pasha who once came back from an expedition where people thought he had died. Another was Mehmed Chulak, the Bey of Alexandria, who was called "Scirocco."

The Turks cannot censor the names of their historical figures. Before you judge them, remember that Barbarossa's master was Suleiman, the same name as "Solomon."

[Cellis]

Barbaros Hayrettin Pasha. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayreddin_Barbarossa) Medio's historic knowledge and denial of facts, also copy/paste garbage from numerous amateurish bloodspot pages pushing me away from this forum. He'll eventually discuss with himself.

These accusations could only fool a brainless moron.
Except "Chris Keller", you all epic failed at mocking the Turkic history.

[Mediocrates]

I'm not mocking anyone. I'm pointing out the astonishing tone-deafness of the arrogant Turkish government which seems to be on a terminal glide path to outrage as many people as humanly possible. Any Turkish military officer who doesn't understand the baggage that comes with "Operation Barbarossa" is an idiot and should be fired from their job. Do you really want to be hung with the name of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union? Do you think the legacy of a failed invasion that ultimately lead to the death of 30 million people is something you want to brag about?

Here's an idea, Cellis, let's call Israeli operations, "Operation Lepanto -2". Will that stoke the Turks? I hope it does. How about if we talk about smashing Turkey at the Gates of Vienna? I can't imagine the Turks becoming offended at that, can you? Good, so we're agreed.

[johnvonneumann]

“Gates of Vienna” would not be a bad name, particularly that Suleiman the Magnificent disastrously failed in the first siege of Vienna (in 1529). (Of course the Turks failed much more disastrously at the second siege in 1683, when they were crushed by the Polish cavalry of Jan Sobieski - who specialized in beating Turks but the first reference is more appropriate in connection with Barbarossa).

A bit of a problem is that Suleiman was one of the most Jew-friendly of Ottoman sultans, he had a Jewish physician, he accepted Jewish refugees from Europe and he took a strong action against attempts to spread the “blood libel”. He was also considered a “bad Muslim” and is believed to have died of alcoholic poisoning. (This rarely mentioned fact was well known to Polish diplomats. Suleiman had close and very good relation with the Christian Polish state and the Poles were very familiar with the goings on at his court, largely through his wife Roxelana, who was a Slav, and exercised a great influence over her husband including his foreign policy.)

Another perhaps relevant thing is that his reign is considered both the peak of Ottoman power but also the beginning of the decline; it was all downhill after him. So, it may not, after all be such a great idea for Erdogan to use him as his role model.

Here (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0019_0_19345.html) is a link about the relations between Suleiman and the Jews.

[Mediocrates]

It's called 'noise-tweaking'. It's rhetoric. No one cares about historical accuracy.

[Mediocrates]

From Bloomberg news:

Turkey’s Clash With Israel Warrants a U.S. Reassessment

Turkey aspires to be treated as a major power in the Middle East, but since the report’s release its actions have been inconsistent with that aspiration. Faced with a UN report that was unexpectedly supportive of Israel, and Netanyahu’s adamant refusal to apologize, Erdogan took a confrontational line that has managed to make Netanyahu look statesmanlike by comparison. Erdogan has curtailed Turkey’s relations with Israel, threatened to seek international legal remedies for Israel’s policy toward Gaza and warned that it would use its navy to “ensure freedom of navigation in the eastern Mediterranean.” The Israeli government has tried to play down the dispute and reiterated its interest in normal relations with Turkey.

The secular Turkey that Kemal Ataturk created out of the ruins of the Ottoman Empire has vanished. In its place is a new Turkey that reflects the moderate Islamism embodied in Erdogan’s Justice and Development Party (AKP). Erdogan and the AKP are not jihadists, but neither are they liberal democrats or an Islamic version of Europe’s Christian Democrats. The AKP’s Islamic identity means that Turkey’s foreign policy will be increasingly nationalist, as the country becomes as willing to align with the Islamic world as with the U.S. and Europe. Under the AKP, Turkey will no longer be the reliable NATO ally it once was.


Turkey is an increasingly important country. But as the diplomatic crisis with Israel demonstrates, it is moving in troubling new directions that were unimaginable a few years ago. The U.S. and Europe need a revised policy that responds to the new Turkey, not the Western-oriented country of the past.


http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-07/turkey-s-clash-with-israel-warrants-a-real-u-s-policy-reassessment-view.html

[Mediocrates]

Conservative on social and religious issues and liberal on economic ones, the AK government has cemented business ties in the Middle East, Central Asia and Africa and pursued a foreign policy of "zero problems with neighbours" - a policy buffeted by the dispute with Israel and tensions with Syria.

But threats to deploy warships show that Turkey, a Nato member and European Union candidate, is now tempted to use its military power to pursue its own interests in a changing region.

"Erdogan is taking a very aggressive stance to assert Turkey's status as a regional power instead of using the soft power we have seen until recently," said Gareth Jenkins, an Istanbul-based security analyst.

"There is a sense in the AK Party that Turkey is a major regional power and that the Mediterranean is its sphere of influence. But Nato and the West increasingly see Turkey as a loose cannon," he said.

"Turkey played its cards well in the past when it had good relations with everyone, but now it is playing them very badly."

http://www.scotsman.com/news/Friend-and-foe-watch-Turkey39s.6833090.jp

Turkey's ties with Syria, a former friend, are near breaking point. President Bashar al-Assad has defied Turkish calls on him to end a bloody crackdown on protesters. Shiite Muslim Iran, another ally of Turkey, has reacted frostily to Ankara's recent decision to host a Nato early-warning radar system.

Meanwhile, Turkey is moving to adapt to the new landscape. Next week, Mr Erdogan will visit Egypt, Tunisia and Libya - where revolts have deposed autocratic governments - in a trip designed to cement Ankara's business and political ties there.

This is an interesting point - Turkey is abandoning its former allies as quickly as it can, in fact making most of them enemies, while at the same time embracing new proto-allies in the form of states which aren't fully formed (including Hamas), of questionable loyalty, unknown stability, hidden agendas and which could implode any moment. One of the most high risk strategies we've seen in a very long time. This confederacy of Turkish control could wind up being a terrible gambit that would saddle Turkey with broken satellite states a -la the Soviet Union's adventures in Africa in the 1960's-70's.

[Chris Keller]

It's called 'noise-tweaking'. It's rhetoric. No one cares about historical accuracy.


It is a tempest in a teacup.

[Mediocrates]

Oh I have to disagree. Turkey sees itself as the sole regional superpower. It wants to rule the entire region as a neo Ottoman empire.

[Iacob]

Oh I have to disagree. Turkey sees itself as the sole regional superpower. It wants to rule the entire region as a neo Ottoman empire.

Exactly...Spot on !

[Chris Keller]

Oh I have to disagree. Turkey sees itself as the sole regional superpower. It wants to rule the entire region as a neo Ottoman empire.

I do not think they do. They would not have banished the Osmanli family so many decades ago had that been on the agenda.

[wat0n]

Oh I have to disagree. Turkey sees itself as the sole regional superpower. It wants to rule the entire region as a neo Ottoman empire.

Oh, there's some of that, but quite frankly I'm having trouble understand what is Erdogan trying to do. I mean:

1) Turkey hasn't become pals with some of its traditional foes (Armenia, Greece/Cyprus, Kurds) and it does not seem this is going to happen anytime soon.
2) Turkey's stance on the crackdown on the revolution in Syria has not only annoyed the Syrians but their Iranian patrons, Hezbollah and arguably Iraq. Thus, it has lost Iran's trust for sure. This is not counting the fact that it agreed to host NATO's early warning system.
3) Turkey has now decided to mess with Israel.

Can Turkey afford this kind of isolation in the long run? Who will it cooperate with them? Unstable Egypt? NATO? The US? Russia?

This recent turn on foreign policy does not look like Turkey wants to revive the Ottoman Empire or Turkish policy, IMHO. I'd say he's catering to Turkish (and perhaps Sunni Arab) public opinion, but this still looks like a risky gamble...

[Cellis]

Hell of a brainstorm going on here. Very impressive. I feel so stupid that I want to return all my qualifications, university diploma and my JAA certificates. I also lost my passion for elements in the periodic table and geometric sequences.

[johnvonneumann]

The periodic table and geometric sequences are primary or, at most, junior high school subjects. As for the other matters, perhaps you should make it clear what exactly you do not agree with.
You yourself have contributed some pretty weird statements, like the idea that the Russian relations with Armenia are all about dealing with old Soviet military equipment, although you can easily check that they involve a military base (the 102) with tanks, fighter jets and SS-300 missiles and the right to patrol Armenia's borders with Turkey and Iran, or that Russia would "crush" Bulgaria, a NATO member and a Slavic Orthodox nation, to help Turkey, also a NATO member but run by Islamists. How many university diplomas does one need to arrive at these ideas?

[Cellis]

Right, you are the expert, I suck. You provide 100% accurate information. Correct. Glorify yourself and keep justifying your failure on this topic. You are awesome. All of you may keep rubbing each others cheeks and try to convince yourselves. You look absurdly funny.



you can easily check that they involve a military base (the 102) with tanks, fighter jets and SS-300 missiles and the right to patrol Armenia's borders with Turkey and Iran

Ruskies may have bases in Armenia just like the yanks have in Turkey. Does that mean the states and turks are emotionally connected? Let's not forget the visa-free travel agreement between Turkey and Russia and tourism exchange. Get a calculator and start to count.


The periodic table and geometric sequences are primary or, at most, junior high school subjects.
Such a stupid approach. So we do not need periodic table and geometry else where than junior high? Oh, Jesus.

edit:
I'm done with you. Feel free to find bunch of copy/paste blogspot, wikiwoko articles. This is my last comment on this forum since you can't take opposing ideas. Whatever the action Israel takes, always the Israel and Israelis are right. God, entire world is wrong you are right. Sorry, I cannot argue while you have this absurd mentality. Israel is the superb power in the world, nobody has guts to take it down. Israel > entire world. Are you happy?

[Cellis]

Is it so hard to find other fora on the Internet where people express views more to your liking?

Right, that's what I'm going to do now (like many other Israel Forum members did). I'll talk to people that can evaluate their own mistakes. You guys are awesome, rest of others suck. We speak non sense you speak truth. Yep yep.

[johnvonneumann]

Erdogan claims he was "misquoted (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4120259,00.html)".

[farmboy]

I just put "Misquoted" through my synonym finder and results it did not give were "Backpedaling" or "Drunk at the time"

[Yala]

People will say Erdogan backed down because of Lieberman's threats. In reality it is probably because the US and NATO pressured Erdogan to do so quietly and behind the scenes (Obama's usual backboneless approach). In any case it works for me because Lieberman will get all the credit and I'm a strong supporter of his.

[Mediocrates]

The Little Hitler Midget Tyrant decides that invading Israel with his navy is maybe not a great idea. Like the original 'Operation Barbarossa' being a Nazi doesn't always win you friends and land.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=237468

According to officials quoted in Istanbul’s Today’s Zaman newspaper over the weekend, remarks Erdogan made during an interview on Al Jazeera Thursday about the gunboats were “quoted out of context.”

[Mediocrates]

Thar be Dragons.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4120185,00.html

Israel’s enemies must be made to understand that should they dare use any weapon of mass destruction, their own fate will be sealed. According to foreign reports, Israel’s Dolphin fleet plays a crucial role in the game of deterrence with its second strike capability.