Oh Great! J 4 Js are recruiting prisoners

[Teacake]

http://www.therefinersfire.org/rl.htm

If you go to this site and see all their links, this messianic cult seems to have the prison population on their agenda.... this is TOO MUCH! I have to wonder now how many criminals are calling themselves Jews for jeus. This is disgusting.

The reason I am posting this particular site is because I just now received an email to my PRIVATE account and this person knew my ACTUAL name. They were upset about something I said on a Jewish forum about "xains".

Actually, here it is. I think they found me at virtualjerusalem and not this one... but I don't know for sure. This person has some real nerve telling me a Jew, what I should post at a Jewish site. Typical.

__________
Dear A----,

Has it ever occured to you that the "xtians" just might have the answer? Before you post hostile, untrue comments on Jewish websites, perhaps you might check into Yeshua a little more. After all, He died for you....

Carmen @ The Refiner's Fire
www.therefinersfire.org

[Matzoh Ball]

Read up on a few, rather, *several*, books on mass murders, serial killers, etc suchlike horrible people, and you'll find a common thread - they go to jail, and before they're even tried/sentenced, they get "washed in the blood of the lamb" and "forgiven" and then are angry/indignant with the authorities for imprisoning them! After all, they're "forgiven" aren't they? Yes, this should make your skin crawl and make you want to check up on this yourself.

[Teacake]

Which is exactly why it worrys me that those J4js are going after them... people hate Jews enough without a million phony jesus people x cons going around telling people they are Jewish. I WISH J4j and all the messyism WAS ILLEGAL!!!!! ITS a scam and fraud.

[Matzoh Ball]

Right-O! So now we'll have people saying their Jewish, but insisting they're "forgiven" by Jeezus, and insisting the state is wrong in putting them in jail! Because they have NO understanding of that fact that HaShen might forgive you, but you have to make restitution to the PEOPLE you have hurt!! Search the net, you'll find a very good page about that, essentially the story is, .................................................. .................... A Jewish doctor in a camp is called in to tend to a dying Nazi captain, who tells the Jew all the bad things he has done, how he has sent hundreds of Jews to the slaughter, how he has pointed out Jews in the general populace who would have otherwise escaped, the whole 9 yards, and feels that now that he is dying, he wants to confess. He asks the Jew to forgive him. The question is: Should the Jew forgive this confessing Nazi? Most Christians say Yes, the man is dying, etc etc. And there is the yawning chasm! Because, of course g-d is so huge and powerful, g-d can forgive you. but you still have to make restitution to the PEOPLE you have hurt! You must do this! So there's a HUGE difference of opinion, of course the majority of Jews say No, this Nazi should not be forgiven, it's a big fat cop-out. Which it is. I lived in Arizona for a few years and I'm amazed my hair hasn't all fallen out, seeing/hearing the things in the news, a good example being a guy who drove his little daughter to the other side of town and SET HER ON FIRE, and then sitting in jail, decided he was "forgiven"!! What the!?!????!??!!?!???!???! What about the daughter??? What about her mother!! What about her friends????? What kind of evil is this??? Granted, family relationships are often extremelly tenuous there, I actually met kids who didn't know who their MOTHER was, but still!! You can't just ASSUME you're forgiven because you feel a lil' sorry after you've been CAUGHT.

[Teacake]

I never heard anywhere in Judaism about any concept of G-d forgiving sins. We have the day of atonement for our sins during Hoshsashana (I'm a terrible speller) But I don't think it has anything to do with forgiving other than we as Jews try all that harder to do even better and atone for the wrongs we have done... and hopefully not intentionally.

Its not up to me to forgive evil doers... let their jesus do that. Someone has to show me they are really worthy of me forgiving them if I do. So far, I can't think of anyone who has done me wrong has ever had the manners to ask me to forgive them. I really don't care.... I have seen some of them get their karma back, and even though I thought it would be nice to see it, I didn't get any pleasure from it.

Anyhow... I recently heard that "heaven and hell" are the same place. That either you will not be able to tolerate that light or you will be at home in that light and the light is that of truth. I'm not saying it exactly right, but I think you get the idea.

Last week that was discussed on Donahue... can a nazi be forgiven if he asks for it and go to heaven... yes said all the ministers and such... but the Jews will go to hell becuase they didn't accept jesus. The rabbi on the show was very upset as were some of the audience people... however the christians in the audience nodded their heads and looked rather smug about it. Made my blood boil.

[Matzoh Ball]

I am pretty simple-minded, but my perception is that G-d is like your Mom when you're about 2 years of age, you can cry, yell, scream, pound with your fists, and no harm really done except maybe some disappointment in their creation. But your fellow humans! G-d made us to be moral and ethical, and you DON'T go murdering them etc and expect a few crocodile tears to heal it all. First and formost, you're not supposed to murder, steal etc, in the FIRST PLACE, and furthermore, you can't just go and do these things and then cry a little and "make it all better". That burning you feel inside if you've done such a thing tells you you never should have done it in the first place! You're not supposed to give in to animal urges and then blubber a bit and it's all over, it doesn't work that way! That's my idea of it anyway, I guess your mileage may very?

[Israel98]

With all the anger against the "xians" in this thread I think it's only fair to hear a reply from one. First I'd like to say to Teacake that I am sorry that you feel this way about Christians. I'm an American Christian with a deep love for Israel and it's people. I believe in Israels right to live in and completely own the entire nation of Israel, including the WB and Gaza. I think the only true friends that Israel has left are the Christians around the world, including those that are former Jews. The Christians are the only non-Jewish group I know of who regularly send letters to the White House to encourage President Bush to be pro-Israel in his policies. I visited Israel in '98 (hence the username) have really come to love the people and the land. I'm sorry that you were offended by the Donahue show. It is not helpful to anyone when an offensive hypothetical analogy is discussed on a talk show. They do this for ratings without regard for the hurt it causes. I'd like to attempt an answer to your statements on some points regarding G-d. I will only use the Hebrew Tenakh, since you do not accept the New Testament.

Originally posted by Teacake
I never heard anywhere in Judaism about any concept of G-d forgiving sins. Here the prophet Isaiah speaks of a man bearing the sins of many. As you know, lambs were sacrificed to make atonement for sins. God would forgive the sins once the sacrifice was complete. These verses in Isaiah when taken in the context of chapter 53 are speaking of a man who was the sacrificial lamb wounded for our sins:Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was on him; and with his stripes we are healed. 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 53:7 ...he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter...53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin.53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 53:12 ...and he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. All of these verses speak of a man who will be killed to make atonement of our sins, which has the end result of forgiveness by God.


Last week that was discussed on Donahue... can a nazi be forgiven if he asks for it and go to heaven... yes said all the ministers and such... but the Jews will go to hell becuase they didn't accept jesus. The rabbi on the show was very upset as were some of the audience people... however the christians in the audience nodded their heads and looked rather smug about it. Made my blood boil.
I can see how this would be upsetting to anyone, including non-Jews. The man identified in Isaiah 53 has the power to atone for all sins, including the most evil ever committed. This is offensive to us as humans because it does not fit in with our views on justice. 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. (having mercy and pardoning are clearly acts of forgiveness)
55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, said the LORD.