The worst danger in Israel's history

[NewsGuy]

Not sure where this will go, but it is possible that we are now witnessing one of the most dangerous developments in Israel's history -- the uprising against Israel's military and political policies staged by Israel's left-wing activists.

Background

It all started with 50 IDF leftist officers who took it upon themselves to decide that they will refuse military orders to serve in the Palestinian-occupied territories.

Theses officers wrote a letter that was published in the press by Israel's professional leftists. Later, 150 more IDF soldiers added their signatures to the letter.

Within a week, a large crowd gathered in Tel Aviv to protest Israel's self-defense policies, urging others serving in the IDF to disobey the orders of their military commanders.

At the gathering, arch-leftist Shulamit Aloni spoke, and then left-winger Uri Avneri read a letter from Arafat to the audience, also urging IDF soldiers to disobey orders.

My conclusions

1. When soldiers disobey direct orders of their commanders, this is called insubordination and they should be immediately court marshalled.

2. There cannot exist a situation where soldiers decide that they will no longer follow the commands of their superiors, because the military would fail if there is no command structure that has authority.

3. The leftist political activists who are inciting IDF soldiers to disobey orders are guilty of treason. It is one thing to hold different political views, but meddling with military operations and sabotaging the military command chain at wartime is nothing less than treason, IMHO.

4. This is further proof that Israeli leftists are trying to tear down the Israeli democracy. These leftists still have not fully undestood that there was a democratic election in Israel, in which the leftist candidates were defeated by the will of the Israeli nation.

5. If this movement towards treason and anarchy persists, there will be grave consequences to Israel's military capacity to defend against Arab military threats. There will be morale problems and social divisions that will waeken Israel's military establishment, which is the only thing preventing the Arabs from destroying Israel.

6. By reading the words of Arafat, who has publicly called for the complete annihilation of Israel, to the cheering leftist Israeli audience, there is a strong statement that there is an equivalency between Arafat's goals and the goals of the extreme Israeli leftists.

7. The Israeli supreme court must rule immediately on the legality of the leftists' actions to determine whether the left-wing uprising is valid political expression, or an illegal incitement to treason.

Otherwise, a catastrophy might happen in Israel, brought about by this situation, one that might devastate Israeli society.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Not sure where this will go, but it is possible that we are now witnessing one of the most dangerous developments in Israel's history -- the uprising against Israel's military and political policies staged by Israel's left-wing activists.


I have read also that some Israelis are able to pull strings to keep their sons out of duty in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. There are also some who become religious all of the sudden and decide to study instead. Combined with this left-wing action, this has to be demoralizing to those who are left to serve on this relatively more dangerous assignment. Is there a solution that does not leave the poorest and least-connected to fight the battles, as so often happens?

[sharonbn]

NewsGuy,

Background
It all started with 50 IDF leftist officers [...] Theses officers wrote a letter that was published in the press by Israel's professional leftists
Not true. The political affiliation of the soldiers in question is unknown since they deliberately separated themselves from any relation to political party/organizations. They did so in order to express that they condemn IDF actions in the occupied territories from a universal-humanist stand. An example of this separation is the fact that the posting of the petition in the newspapers was funded from their own private resources. To date, they refuse to be funded or any way be asociated with any political party/organization.

At the gathering, arch-leftist Shulamit Aloni spoke, and then left-winger Uri Avneri read a letter from Arafat...
They’re not the only ones: A former head of Israel's internal security service, Ami Ayalon, has given his support to the protest, saying he is "very concerned about the large number of unarmed Palestinian children shot by Israeli troops."

Conclusions
1. When soldiers disobey direct orders of their commanders, this is called insubordination and they should be immediately court marshalled.

This is true. Moreover, disciplinary actions were already taken against some of the soldiers who signed the petition. I can say that the soldiers who signed the petition knew and are ready to face the consequences of their protest. This is unlike other groups in Israeli society who avoid serving the army without paying any cost.

3. The leftist political activists who are inciting IDF soldiers to disobey orders are guilty of treason.
There are no such activists. Only after the petition was publicized, support was expressed by Left wing political figures.

4. This is further proof that Israeli leftists are trying to tear down the Israeli democracy. These leftists still have not fully understood that there was a democratic election in Israel, in which the leftist candidates were defeated by the will of the Israeli nation.
Oh really? what about Israeli rightists? Did they accept the voter’s choice when Yitzhak Rabin was elected? and I’m not talking only about the murder of the PM, the act was preceded by numerous demonstrations, on which protesters showed pictures of Rabin with Nazi uniforms. They also paraded in the streets carrying a coffin with Rabin’s picture on it.
Unlike the rightists demonstrations which usually end up with the police having to intervene to keep the order, Left-wing demonstrations were always held with respect to the law and public order (I'm speaking with first-hand experience of both). I believe this fact alone shows who is a menacing danger to democracy and the sovereignty of Israel.

5. If this movement towards treason and anarchy persists, there will be grave consequences to Israel's military capacity to defend against Arab military threats. There will be morale problems and social divisions that will weaken Israel's military establishment, which is the only thing preventing the Arabs from destroying Israel.
I totally disagree with you. The Left wing of the political map is responsible for some of the great advancements of Israel towards peace and stability. For example, IDF invaded Lebanon in 1982 and conquered almost half the country, surrounding and bombing the capital Beirut. All this was the responsibility of one man – Minister of defense Ariel Sharon (maybe he should be called minister of defiance.) Then came the incident of Sabra and Shatilla. It was the big demonstration (coined “The 400,000”) of the left wing that caused the Israeli public to open their eyes and their mouths to the actions of the government. Later on, in the 90’s it was again the initiative of the “Four mothers” and other left wing movements that finally stirred public opinion into realizing the futility of staying in Lebanon. Only after realizing the shift in public opinion, Barak made the withdrawal from Lebanon a main issue in his 1999 campaign.
Regarding the issue at hand, A poll conducted for Israel radio said 31% of Israelis supported the protesting officers. (BBC news, Feb 1st (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1795000/1795362.stm) )
This proves that there is growing genuine concern in a large portion of the Israeli public regarding the efficiency, justification and validity of the recent military actions decided by the Israel government. In a democracy, You cannot overlook to protest of such a large portion of the public. To call these concerns “morale problems” is to turn a blind eye at a boiling problem that if not addressed will erupt later as public outrage with grave consequences.

The major question that the people are asking is: “If the military actions cannot be morally justified, then what are we defending?”

Militaristic actions are problematic to begin with. This can be seen in the recent attempt by the US to gather support for military action against Iraq. This attempt is met with fierce opposition in western Europe and even in the UN (regardless of the validity of such an action). Thus, in a democracy, the public must be assured and reassured of the justification and efficiency of military actions to endorse them. Without meticulously keeping moral values, even in violent times, it will become increasingly difficult to defend military actions.

6. By reading the words of Arafat, who has publicly called for the complete annihilation of Israel, to the cheering leftist Israeli audience, there is a strong statement that there is an equivalency between Arafat's goals and the goals of the extreme Israeli leftists.
By reading the words of the former leader of the outlawed “Kach” movement, Meir Cahana, who publicly called for the complete annihilation of Palestinians there is a strong statement that there is an equivalency between Cahana’s fascist goals and the goals of the extreme Israeli rightists like Avigdor Liberman, Uzi Landau, Effi Eitam, et al.

Looking at the violent actions of right extremists Igal Amir, Baruch Goldstein and Yona Avrushmi and the support for such actions that is expressed by Right-wing political figures makes a strong statement that these opinions pose a real danger to the democratic character of the state of Israel and should be referred to as treason.

7. The Israeli supreme court must rule immediately on the legality of the leftists' actions to determine whether the left-wing uprising is valid political expression, or an illegal incitement to treason.
To date, Israeli supreme court and Knesset chose to pass judgment on the extreme right political movements, declaring "Kach" and related movements ("Cahana hai") outlawed organizations.

PS
To demonstrate the hazards of over-patriotism to democracy and free speech take a look at this MSNBC news article (http://www.msnbc.com/news/720313.asp?cp1=1)

[NewsGuy]

Hi sharonbn,

"The political affiliation of the soldiers in question is unknown since they deliberately separated themselves from any relation to political party/organizations... To date, they refuse to be funded or any way be asociated with any political party/organization."

The official funding is an open question, since the Leftists have offered to pay for legal fees for the draft evaders, and the Leftists have also donated a huge amount of their time and resources to support the insurrection. Just looking at the costs of organizing, promoting, and staffing of the demonstration, I'd be surprised if we're not looking at very large sums of monetary value.

As for their political affiliation, their position, per se, makes them Leftists, IMO. Theirs is not a right-wing or centrist position, but rather an extreme Leftist political platform.

Whether the radical Leftists politicians joined in after the letter and before the demonstration, or whether they actually precipitated this dangerous new movement, the fact remains that this is a Leftist official platform.

In fact, Sharon and Mofaz were announced an investigation as to the extent of Leftist party involvement and whether the political opposition is behind the situation.



"A former head of Israel's internal security service, Ami Ayalon, has given his support to the protest, saying he is "very concerned about the large number of unarmed Palestinian children shot by Israeli troops."

Ami Ayalon's failed policies that contributed to the extremely poor job he performed during his tenure as Shin Bet chief, are largely to blame for the current mess Israel is in. To a great extent, his failures were fertile ground for Arafat to conclude that the Palestinians could win through terrorism.

Sure, he's entitled to have any political views he wants, but to most Israelis an association with Ami Ayalon him is not a badge of honor.

In fact, Ayalon's name keeps on creeping up often, since his scathing criticism of Israeli military policy, the Israeli political system, and Israeli society in general, is widely distributed in anti-Semitic and anti-Israel literature and Web sites worldwide.



I can say that the soldiers who signed the petition knew and are ready to face the consequences of their protest. This is unlike other groups in Israeli society who avoid serving the army without paying any cost.

That's a very good point. They are prepared to sit in jail for years just to express their point of view. I think that this is especially true for the new recruits who are about 18 years old and think that sitting in jail for what they mistakenly perceive as a good cause, is like a high-school slumber party. I would be interested to see these what these "soldiers" have to say for themselves 2 years down the road. btw - Notice of course that Shulamit Aloni, Yossi Sarid and Ami Ayalon are not prepared to sit in jail to champion this cause.




what about Israeli rightists? Did they accept the voter’s choice when Yitzhak Rabin was elected? and I’m not talking only about the murder of the PM, the act was preceded by numerous demonstrations, on which protesters showed pictures of Rabin with Nazi uniforms. They also paraded in the streets carrying a coffin with Rabin’s picture on it.

First of all, it was only a tiny minority group of rightists who held the extreme views you mention, and those groups and those activities were subsequently made illegal (and for good reason).

Secondly, the rightists, seeing the complete failure of Rabin and Peres' Arab-appeasing policies, did the "right" thing extacly: They went to elections and voted in a government that better represented the nation. This was done in a democratic, civilized process.

Unlike today's Leftists, the rightists did not attempt to destroy Israeli society with what might amount to treason.



Unlike the rightists demonstrations which usually end up with the police having to intervene to keep the order, Left-wing demonstrations were always held with respect to the law and public order (I'm speaking with first-hand experience of both).

As it turns out, this was absolutely not the case last week, when the Leftists demonstrators who were stationed outside Ariel Sharon's residence in Jerusalem were scuffling with passers-by. The reason this came to light was the suicide bomber who happened to blow himself up right near the Leftist demonstration, so there was wider than usual news coverage of the demonstration and its scuffles.



I totally disagree with you. The Left wing of the political map is responsible for some of the great advancements of Israel towards peace and stability.

IMO, the only thing "great" that resulted from Leftist policies is the great number of innocent Israelis murdered by Arafat's terror machine, which is fueled by encouragement from the Israeli Leftists.

For example, just a few weeks ago, while there was a full-scale massacre of Israeli citizens committed by Arafat's Fatah terrorist organization, which publicly took responsibility for the mass murders, the Israeli leftists decided to pay a friendly solidarity visit to Arafat in Ramallah to show their strong support for him.

As for Lebanon, the cowardly and disasterous retreat imposed by Barak and his leftist bosses has now placed Israel in a terrible situation. The Hizbullah is stronger than ever, massing thousands of tons of Iranian weapons of mass destruction right on Israel's doorstep, while still shooting missiles periodically into Israeli population centers. This is the legacy of the Leftist policies in Lebanon.



Regarding the issue at hand, A poll conducted for Israel radio said 31% of Israelis supported the protesting officers. ... In a democracy, You cannot overlook to protest of such a large portion of the public.

I haven't seen that poll reported elsewhere (maybe I just missed it). But I dont believe for a moment that it is accurate, because of Ariel Sharon's soaring popularity in the polls. Something doesn't jive.

If in fact the Leftists account for such a large portion of Israeli society (which again, I think is false) then they will have the opportunity to elect their own representatives. But every time there are elections, the Leftists announce that they are tremendously popular, but then only win a very small number of seats in the Knesset.

I think that if elections were held today, either Sharon would be reelected or Netanyahu maybe, but either way, they would have no problem forming a coalition that could completely leave the Leftists out.



"The major question that the people are asking is: “If the military actions cannot be morally justified, then what are we defending?”

I don't know who's asking that, when it is plain to see that defending oneself against mass murderers is of course moral and necessary for anyone concerned with survival.

True, the Leftists oppose defending the Jewish settlements, and think that Jews have no moral right to live in large parts of Israel, but that is part of a big Leftist misconception, thinking that if the Jews turn over more land to the Arabs, there will miraculously be everlasting peace. In reality, it is not a dispute over partial land, but an overall strategy of the Arabs to eliminate the Jews from ALL of Israel.


To date, Israeli supreme court and Knesset chose to pass judgment on the extreme right political movements, declaring "Kach" and related movements ("Cahana hai") outlawed organizations.

Yes, and now it's time to apply equal justice to the extreme Left, as well.

[McSceptic]

I'd agree that a failure to follow orders is a court martial offence, but that doesn't mean the soldier is guilty, only that there is a case to be answered.

I understood that the IDF had instituted a code of ethics to ensure that soldiers had a frame of reference to assess their orders against.

After the events in Europe, it's been recognised that "just following orders" is not enough, and that servicemen must give some thought to what they are asked to do. Difficult, I know.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by McSceptic
After the events in Europe, it's been recognised that "just following orders" is not enough, and that servicemen must give some thought to what they are asked to do. Difficult, I know.

Sure, but there is a HUGE difference between a fascist regime carrying out the genocide of a non-combatant nation, and between the democratic Israelis rooting out the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure, while taking utmost care not to harm innocent civilians.

And actually, "following orders" is essential to the functioning of any army.

If soldiers in a democratic country disagree with the government's policies, they are free to vote in the next elections for a candidate who more closely represents their political views, but they are not free to disobey their commanders when they are being deployed in battle. If they do, they must face a military court.

[ibrodsky]

I haven't had time to read through all of this yet, but I just want to make one point.

Israel's left simply doesn't get what is going on.

Arafat rejected Barak's proposal and started a war because he doesn't want peace, he wants to destroy Israel. The Palestinian terrorists don't purposely kill civilians because they want to end the (legal) occupation, but because they want to end the Jews.

Militant Islam's goal is to destroy Western civilization, and Israel is simply the first target. And a rather small one at that.

I would like to see the left get 400,000 to rally for peace with the Palestinians now. The left doesn't get it: most Israelis realize that Oslo was a terrible mistake.

The protesting officers have provided tremendous motivation for the Islamists to turn the war up a notch. They see Israeli society splitting from within.

The only way Israel can survive in this, the most dangerous period in its history, is by being united.

To support racist Islamists' calls for getting Ariel Sharon (today Iran said he should be tried and executed) is to say, in effect, that the Islamists are right. The reason they hate Sharon is not because Christians killed a bunch of Palestinians in Lebanon -- the Palestinians killed plenty of Christians and destroyed the whole country -- but because Sharon is a symbol of Israel's military prowess.

Ariel Sharon's "crime" is that he surrounded the Egyptian army and then showed mercy by not annihilating them. That is why they hate Ariel Sharon, and Israelis who aid them in attacking Sharon are fools. If the day comes when they can drag Sharon off to the Hague, it will mean that Israel has been totally defeated.

[Flame]

I really really really don't understand how some Jews can feel that way. Have a soft spot for wild savages that want to kill you... and knowing that Israel was created by the League of Nations, after 20 years of meetings... to suggest Israel is an illegal occupier... just don't get it. The borders were flimsy, the arabs attacked and like all nations who overcome the enemy... the land is re-established. How any Jew living in Israel sees the P's as having any validity boggles the mind. They are arab muslims of mixed nationality calling themselves palestinians... they have no history as a "people," they offer nothing for the land they want their state to occupy... and if by some horrible fluke they get this state... what's to be proud as a nation on earth???? They swindled, lied, murdered, set up an elaborate PR game to win sympathy... nothing to be proud of as far as human decency goes. Everything they do to get this state has not even been earned, but will be born of brutal savagery... everything America would be ashamed of, is what is hailed as wonderful? Just don't get it at all.

[NewsGuy]

Hey sharonbn,

I hope we didn't scare you off with strongly worded replies.

I think that even those who disagree with your POV still respect your views and would like to hear more of what you think.

:)

[sharonbn]

I must admit I find more joy in the intellectual debate I’m having with A-Palestinian regarding Zionism, than participating in such “flame wars” as seen above and in most threads here.

For me such postings as the ones from ibrodsky and flame serve no purpose other than allow the author to express his/her aggressiveness and emotions (they certainly don't contribute anything to the issue of this thread.) They only clutter the thread. Maybe a more active moderation is required here...

For an example, take a look at the title of the thread:
"The worst danger in Israel's history"
Without addressing the issue of rating the officers' petition as "the worst" (WOW... up until now Israel was a heaven on earth with minor problems like who will be Maccabee’s next captain. Then along came the officers’ protest…) The title of the thread should be something like “The Officers’ letter” or maybe
“The Officers’ letter – dangerous criminal move or legitimate democratic opposition?”

But hey, I’m just another elitist snobbish “Haaretz”-reading "Moment"-going leftist.

I will post something when I have the time and energy.

BTW, what are the ratings attached to each thread and who determines them?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by sharonbn

For me such postings as the ones from ibrodsky and flame serve no purpose other than allow the author to express his/her aggressiveness and emotions (they certainly don't contribute anything to the issue of this thread.) They only clutter the thread. Maybe a more active moderation is required here...


Nonsense. A discussion about the "worst danger in Israel's history" has to consider militant Islam and how the actions of various Israeli groups thwart or aid it.

You can dismiss my post because it was strongly worded (though hardly an ad hominem attack or vulgar), but you can't dismiss the issues I raised.

That's not to say that Israeli leftists don't have the right to exist or advocate their ideas. But what they are doing right now is not seeking political office or voicing opinions. They are trying to disrupt the IDF from doing what a freely-elected government is directing it to do. They are also expressing solidarity -- whether they know it or not -- with forces bent on Israel's destruction.

[NewsGuy]

sharonbn,

"I must admit I find more joy in the intellectual debate I’m having with A-Palestinian regarding Zionism, than participating in such “flame wars” as seen above and in most threads here."

I personally woudn't call it flame wars, and I just presumed you were interested in this topic because you posted to it.



"BTW, what are the ratings attached to each thread and who determines them?"

At the bottom of each thread there is a pull-down menu that allows readers to rate the thread as they please. Anyone who feels like it can select a rating of 1 to 5 stars for any thread. For example, I just rated this thread a 5 (best).

As more readers rate a thread, the number of stars becomes an "average" of those ratings.

[Flame]

So expressing what's in your heart and deeply felt concerns is flaming?????? Flaming is basically attacking a poster personally or going on insane tirates. Expressing my opinions is not flaming.

Anyhow... this is what I think is the only solution. Every single Jew in Israel needs to relocate to the US. This is the safest place on the planet for us.

Get out, the arabs have nothing more to say. No occupation, no human rights abuse... zip zero. Get the hell out of Israel and come to America, making the Jewish community stronger. The arab world has the us by the balls and once again, the world is going after us. They weren't happy to just get rid of Jews in Europe, send survivors packing... no... can't be happy just to allow Jews to exist within their own little slice of the planet.

Israel come to America!!!!!!! It's not worth total anniliation.

[L@mplighterM]

Just been sitting here looking at children’s drawings from the holocaust online, I imagine they are not to different from pictures children are drawing in Israel right now. Perhaps I’m wrong!

Move to the US might not be a bad idea or as an alternative become the next state of the US. Then their problems would come to an end quickly. I suspect the earth in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank would be glazed within a week.

[sharonbn]

Just been sitting here looking at children’s drawings from the holocaust online, I imagine they are not to different from pictures children are drawing in Israel right now. Perhaps I’m wrong!

I imagine they are not to different from pictures Palestinian children are drawing right now. Perhaps I’m wrong!

Move to the US might not be a bad idea or as an alternative become the next state of the US...

As an idealist Zionist living in Israel, I must say I am shocked and appalled to read Flame and L@mplighterM's suggestions to end the conflict. If this is the kind of support the Diaspora Jews are willing to give, I pass.

First of all, there is absolutely no justification for painting the reality with such black colors. Israel is NOT facing the worst situation in its history. Far from it. Israel today is the strongest country in the region, militarily as well as economically speaking.

And while we're on the jubject of history, let me refresh your memory:
During the war of independence of 1948, most countries believed that the newly born Israeli state, with its flimsy armed forces and non existent air force can not withhold the invasion of the regular armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. Some Israelis believed that Ben-Gurion was too haste to declare an Israeli state without first securing the support of world powers. After the war was over, it was found out that one third of the Israeli army was annihilated, the Israeli economy was in ruins. Just then came the flood of Jewish immigrants, tripling the population within 3 years. Hastily built “ma’abarot” sprung up everywhere, where conditions were poor and diseases were spread. Mortality among babies came close to 40%. Some economists estimated that Israel would collapse into anarchy if the situation persists.

On the first day of Yom Kippur war on October 6, 1973, Egypt’s forces swiftly crossed the Suez Canal and overran the Bar-Lev line. In the north, Israel was outnumbered nearly 12 to 1 (there were 1,100 Syrian tanks versus 157 Israeli tanks). The first few days of the war saw Israeli counterattacks fail as Israel suffered hundreds of casualties and lost nearly 150 planes.
Because of disputes among the Israeli generals Ariel Sharon and Abraham Addan, the true situation in the Sinai was not revealed to general stuff HQ until the 4th day of fighting. The accepted assessment at that time was that no significant force stood in the way of the Egyptian and Syrian armies between their positions and the citries of Tel Aviv and Haifa in the heart of the country.
The night of the 9th-10th was to be later known as “Metsada night” because of the general feeling in HQ of imminent disaster. Hasty Plans were drawn to recruit boys of the ages of 16 and 17 and the mass evacuation of children to Italy. Only in the morning of October 10, when news arrived of the successful pushback of the Egyptian army and the halt of the Syrian armor – that relief came.

And what is the situation today?
People living in the US, seeing Israel through CNN and the media might think that people here are falling dead on the streets and everybody is depressed and suicidal. Well, let me ease your concerns. The living standard is the highest Israel has ever experienced. Everybody owns a car, a color TV and a DVD player. Many own a home cinema system, PS2 game console and a second car. I just bought a SONY digital camcorder for 1500$. Israel is still considered the second silicon valley. People here go out to restaurants, parties, the theatre, etc. The headlines of Friday morning were all about the great victory of Hapoel Tel Aviv over Milan in the UEFA Cup quarter-final on Thursday.
The vast majority in Israel, left and right, sees Israel as their only homeland and almost half the people still believe that long lasting peace in the foreseeing future is feasible.

And in regard to the suggestion to abandon the state of Israel and move to “safe haven” in the US:
People , you forget why the state of Israel was formed to begin with. America is not the Jewish homeland. It is not even a safe haven. The most certain fact you can learn from history is that it tends to repeat itself and that change is imminent. In 1924, in response to the wave of Jewish immigrants fleeing Russian pogroms, the US has posted restrictions over the maximum allowed number of immigrants to be accepted. This situation can and will repeat itself!
Anti-Semitism is on the rise in Europe, especially in France.
To this day, The only country in the world where Jews are granted automatic citizenship upon arrival – is Israel.

Suggesting that Israelis leave Israel is playing into the hands of Arafat and the Palestinians. Jews must never leave the land of Israel, lest we want to wait another 2000 years to return.

What we in Israel need now is the moral support of Jews of the Diaspora, using their influence over their local governments to pressure Arafat into ceasing the violence. We don’t need such "Ahitofel advices". We’ve been through worse and we can hold on until the storm is over.

Rest assured, Israeli Jews will never abandon the land of Israel, for their sake as well as your own.

[ibrodsky]

I imagine they are not to different from pictures Palestinian children are drawing right now. Perhaps I’m wrong!

You should know by now that Palestinian children are being taught to draw terrorists as heroic resistance fighters. With its paramilitary summer camps, encouraging children to throw rocks at soldiers, and brainwashing children starting in kindergarten, the PA is truly guilty of child abuse.

As an idealist Zionist living in Israel, I must say I am shocked and appalled to read Flame and L@mplighterM's suggestions to end the conflict. If this is the kind of support the Diaspora Jews are willing to give, I pass.

I have to agree with you on this one. It is naive to think there is no anti-semitism in the U.S. There are plenty of people who say that 9/11 was our own fault... for supporting Israel.

First of all, there is absolutely no justification for painting the reality with such black colors. Israel is NOT facing the worst situation in its history. Far from it. Israel today is the strongest country in the region, militarily as well as economically speaking.

This is a matter of opinion. I believe Israel is facing the worst danger since its War of Independence. I think there are some factors you aren't taking into account.

Over the last decade we have seen the rise of militant Islam, a neo-Nzai movement with potentially tens of millions of supporters. The Oslo "Peace Process" turned the Father of Modern Terrorism, Yasir Arafat, into a "statesman," and he promptly used this sham to arm 30,000+ fighters and launch a massive propaganda campaign against Jews and Israel. He has also formed a secret alliance with Iran and has the backing of Iraq, two of only three countries identified by President Bush as the "axis of evil."

Sorry, but at the risk of you accusing me of flaming, I have to say that telling us you bought an electronic toy is evidence of Israel's strength is pure silliness. Really, this highlights what we have said about the refusnik officers. For Israel to be divided within while militant Islam plans the annihilation of "the Zionist entity" is no laughing matter.

Suggesting that Israelis leave Israel is playing into the hands of Arafat and the Palestinians. Jews must never leave the land of Israel, lest we want to wait another 2000 years to return.

Agreed! Now we just need to figure out who is "is playing into the hands of Arafat and the Palestinians." Certainly suggesting Jews give up on Israel is one example.

And imagining that the Palestinians simply want their own peaceful state on the West Bank and Gaza is another.

What we in Israel need now is the moral support of Jews of the Diaspora, using their influence over their local governments to pressure Arafat into ceasing the violence. We don’t need such "Ahitofel advices". We’ve been through worse and we can hold on until the storm is over.

Unfortunately, it's Israel's left that has done more to discourage the support of diaspora Jews than any other force. When we hear Jews in Israel saying that Israel is the party in the wrong, what are we supposed to conclude?

This is why many American Jews have taken the position that Israel is not important to them.

What you may not realize is this: what American Jews often hear is (in effect) "many Israelis believe that the problem is Israel's fault."

Really, if you want the support of diaspora Jews you have to come to grips with what Arafat, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, et al really are, and help expose them. It's Israelis who need to be jumping up and down right now telling everyone that they are at the front line fighting Al Qaeda and its allies.

[Flame]

Wrong Sharonbn... all the other wars were regular ground wars.... armies against armies... the individual acts of mob terrorists is a new twist.... and even the last war was before the arab world was taken over with this new radicalized form of islam... until 1980.... the arab world was NOT as dangerous as it is now.

I guess you don't understand the reasons for Jews being in the Holy land... being there now, as a state, was to give the Jews a place to call their own... has nothing to do with the biblical scenairo.

If in fact this biblical version every comes about, it doesn't matter where Jews are living before hand. As the legend goes... the "messiah" (forgot how to spell it the Jewish way)... he will restore the Holy Land, not the US, not the UN, not any big group... he, who ever he is, will be the one responcible for not just restoring Israel, but restoring our ligitmate reason to be there.... no questions asked.... and after that happens, legend says, the temple will be restored and that god himself will dwell in the temple.

What Israel is now has nothing to do with biblical legends.

Israel is the most dangerous place for Jews on the face of the planet... the UN is doing all it can with the help of the EU and arab world to destroy Israel and make Jews look like we are the nazis. We have all the government in the US kissing arab butt... none of this happened before.

Why won't we just get the hell out of the arab world and use our own oil? So so simple. The oil barons won't loose a dime if they relocate to Alaska. WIthout oil... the US can say to the arab world ... you want what? Ha Ha.

[NewsGuy]

sharonbn,

"First of all, there is absolutely no justification for painting the reality with such black colors. Israel is NOT facing the worst situation in its history. Far from it. Israel today is the strongest country in the region, militarily as well as economically speaking."

It seems like all the people I personally know who live in Israel, and all the people who follow Israel closely for years, are saying that it is, in fact, the worst time ever for the country.

You think that every Israeli owning a VCR makes life good when they fear that their children who go out to shop in a mall might not ever come home? Or that they might be shot to death through the windshield of their car while driving home from work on any given day?

I think you're mistaken and it really shows that even someone living in Israel can be either completely detached from the reality of the situation, or more likely simply living in complete denial. But, ultimately, if the situation is better than ever, as you claim, then I guess there is no need to bother to improve things. Is that what you're saying?



"Some Israelis believed that Ben-Gurion was too haste to declare an Israeli state without first securing the support of world powers. After the war was over, it was found out that one third of the Israeli army was annihilated, the Israeli economy was in ruins."

I am sorry to tell you that: a. The world voted the UN resolution that made Israel a state, because there was plenty of international support, and b. Israel had no economy at all in 1948, since it did not exist beforehand. So I'm not sure where you're coming from.




"And what is the situation today?
People living in the US, seeing Israel through CNN and the media might think that people here are falling dead on the streets and everybody is depressed and suicidal. "

That's becuase Israeli citizens are being shot at bus stops, in shopping mall, on city buses, in pizza shops, in discos, in their cars, in playgrounds, in apartment buildings, in community centers, etc. This happens every day and has been going on for nearly a year now. Do you deny this? Are you aware that this day-in-day-out mass murder of Israelis was NOT the situation ever before?



"The headlines of Friday morning were all about the great victory of Hapoel Tel Aviv over Milan in the UEFA Cup quarter-final on Thursday."

That's right. That is a tiny bit of welcome normalcy in Israel. So, too, people's lives go on in various ways, but underlying it all is extreme fear and anxiety about the security situation.



"Suggesting that Israelis leave Israel is playing into the hands of Arafat and the Palestinians. Jews must never leave the land of Israel, lest we want to wait another 2000 years to return."
Very true.



"We don’t need such "Ahitofel advices". We’ve been through worse and we can hold on until the storm is over."

Yes, all of a sudden I see you're quoting Ariel Sharon.

We are doing our part here in the US, but you need to not just quote Sharon when it suits you, you need to get out to the streets of Israel and let Sharon know that he can count on you to withstand the Leftists in his government that are tying the IDF's hands in dealing with the Palestinians properly once and for all.

Despite appearances to the contrary, the world will support Israel only if Israel is strong and takes matters into its own hands for real.

[sharonbn]

ibrodsky,

You should know by now that Palestinian children are being taught to draw terrorists as heroic resistance fighters.
You seem to know a lot about Palestinians from your residence in the USA. I can tell you two things about what I know about children in the Mideast:
1. Palestinian children have the same feelings, emotions and fears as Israeli children. Since the beginning of the Intifada, hospitals and clinics in PA territory have reported a massive increase in cases of Post traumatic stress disorder, shock, depression, and family violence among the Palestinian population. If your life is threaten daily, you will develop phobias and depression, no matter who’s to blame for the situation - this is a human reaction . It is true that Palestinian society is a ‘recruited’ society, where everyone is acting towards one goal without expresing any criticism. But this is done “for the camera”. Israeli military actions (whether justified or not, I’m not getting into this question) have a terrifying effect over the Palestinian civilian population (children as well as adults.)

2. The settlers in the occupied territories are making cynical use of their youth in the war against the Palestinians. I will not say they are pushing the children to the front line, but they do not take minimal precautions for the lives of the children.
My good friend from high school is now a building engineer. One of his tasks was to overlook the building of a defensive wall around a settlement in the heart of Hebron, not far from the Kasba. The settlers rejected the erection of ANY kind of such wall since they believe they sit on the holy land, their land, and they do not need protection while living on their land. The army put two infantry companies (=200 soldiers) to protect 10 families with some 40 children. Then my friend came with the idea to erect a wall of translucent fiberglass without the knowledge of the settlers. The army agreed. The settlers did find out about this. They began protesting by throwing stones at the workers. The work is now halted.

Sorry, but at the risk of you accusing me of flaming, I have to say that telling us you bought an electronic toy is evidence of Israel's strength is pure silliness. Really, this highlights what we have said about the refusnik officers.
I don’t understand the relation between my possessions and the officers’ letter.
Regarding the issue, I don’t know if you understand the concept of “living standard”. This is an economical index which attempts to rate how good or bad your socio-economical position is. The rating is based upon several factors:
Income level, Housing level (how big is your house, how well is the neighborhood, etc.), possessions (Automobiles, electrical appliances, electronic goods, etc.), your expenditure (how much do you spend on food, cloths, entertainment, travel etc.) All these factors together make up the index called “living standard”. I was making a point that average Israeli living standard has been on the rise since the beginning of the 1980s without significant declines. Israel’s GDP growth rate was a strong 6% in 2000 (before the brake of the Intifada.) These facts are clear indication of the economical strength of Israel.
It is true that since the brake of the Intifada, Some industries are facing big problems (especially tourism) but this is far from the worst economical situations Israel have faced in its past.

Now we just need to figure out who is "is playing into the hands of Arafat and the Palestinians." Certainly suggesting Jews give up on Israel is one example.
And imagining that the Palestinians simply want their own peaceful state on the West Bank and Gaza is another.
IMO, IDF recent actions in Ramallah and the rest of PA cities, bring tremendous damage to Israel’s position and cause in international public opinion. This is exactly what Arafat (who don’t care for the suffering of his own people, as long as there diplomatic gain) is looking for.
You have to understand that the real battlefield is not the streets of Jerusalem or Ramallah. It is international media and world public opinion. This is where the Palestinians and Israelis fight the “real” war and right now, the Palestinians are winning. This is largely because they can present themselves as stone throwers against tanks and F16s (even if this is not the reality.)

Unfortunately, it's Israel's left that has done more to discourage the support of diaspora Jews than any other force.
This is what you are suppose to conclude: Israel is a true democracy where the opposition to the government is making a strong stand. An opposition to ruling government is not a synonym for supporters of the enemy. The left wing of the Israeli political map is expressing concerns about violation of human rights by Israeli soldiers because it believes that not “all is fair at love and war”. We need to watch ourselves lest we become the savages we are fighting against.

I’m proud to be able to say that Israel stand on moral higher ground than its rivals. This is not only because we fight for a just cause and for our lives (which is true, of course), but we do so without loosing human face and human feelings of compassion and empathy to the suffering of those who hate us. This is what makes Israel special an unique among all other world nations. IMO, the left wing are the keepers of morality and humanity in Israel. This is by no means lass important than winning military victories.

When we hear Jews in Israel saying that Israel is the party in the wrong, what are we supposed to conclude? [...]
What you may not realize is this: what American Jews often hear is (in effect) "many Israelis believe that the problem is Israel's fault."
If this is what you hear, you need to check your ears. Israelis do not blame Israel for the eruption of violence. Israelis do express criticism over some of the reactions of the Israeli army and Israeli government to the terror attacks. This does not undermine the legitimacy of the ruling government. But it is essential that the government and the army understand that they cannot do whatever they like and act with brute force against civilian population just because the other side does the same!

[NewsGuy]

Just came across this in the Israeli newspaper Maariv:

It seems that the Leftist movement of army sabateurs was not exactly an independent grass-roots movement, as many Leftists have claimed so far. They were actually receiving guidince and financing from a cunning Arafat supporter.

The story came to light when the Mayor of an Israeli town called Or Akiva, filed a complaint with Israel's police force naming a little-known Professor, Danny Gur, as being involved in "incitement to murder," which is a crime under Israeli law.

It turns out that the Professor, an extremist Leftist, published a full-page ad in Ha'aretz calling for Arafat to continue terrorism against Israeli civilians.

The Professor then admitted that he is has been financing the Leftist military sabateurs who have been undermining the IDF.

And so we see the collaboration among the extremist Leftist money machine, army sabateurs and the Leftist press to harm the security of the people of Israel.

I look forward to the outcome of the investigation, but am glad, in any event, that the source of financing the Leftist army sabateurs has now been exposed.

[cerulean]

How much money is involved here? And how does the professor have enough money to do this?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by cerulean
How much money is involved here? And how does the professor have enough money to do this?

There were no specific figures quoted in Maariv. But like I wrote previously in this thread, the organizing, promoting and staffing of the Leftist demonstration, plus producing and running a full-page ad in a national paper costs a good deal of money.

Certainly the Professor has been spending 10's of thousands of dollars per month to dmage his fellow citizens.

The Professor is a surgeon, apparently successful enough to finance political action, and perhaps we will still find out about other sources of the funds in addition than his personal wealth. I would not be surprised if other sources of financing are announced soon enough.

So far, today the IDF said that it the ad helped legitimize terrorist attacks such as those committed just today against innocent Israeli citizens.

[sharonbn]

Flame,
all the other wars were regular ground wars.... armies against armies... the individual acts of mob terrorists is a new twist....
Israel has always been the victim of terrorist attacks, since its creation. From the Egyptian “Fedaiun” attacks on the Negev settlements in the 50s, to PLO attacks from Jordan in the 60s (incl. a famous attack on a bus traveling in the dead sea in1964, killing 24 people), to PLO attacks from Lebanon in the 70s (incl. a famous attack on a school in the northern town Ma’alot in 1974, killing 14 children.) to recent terrorist activities from the Gaza strip and the west bank.

I guess you don't understand the reasons for Jews being in the Holy land... being there now, as a state, was to give the Jews a place to call their own... has nothing to do with the biblical scenario.
Did I mention the bible?? I went back to my post #15 and didn’t find any biblical scenario. I said the creation of the state of Israel was possible after WWII when the world nations realized that Jews need a safe haven of their own.

Israel is the most dangerous place for Jews on the face of the planet..
I wholeheartedly disagree with you. The fact that there is currently an eruption of violence in Israel does not mean the situation will last forever. I don’t understand you, when things become rough and you need to fight for your life and beliefs – you run away?!? If people were like you we didn’t have the French revolution, American independence, Algerian independence (from France whose actions in Algeria in the 50s can only be described as brutal savagery), and Vietnamese independence. I choose to fight. Up until now, Israel has won all its wars against the Arab – regular ones as well as wars against terrorism. I feel confident in the strength of Israel especially since justice is on our side. If you believe in what you’re fighting for – you will win.

Why won't we just get the hell out of the arab world and use our own oil? So so simple.
Our oil? Whose oil are you speaking about? Israeli oil? American oil? American oil is American oil – not Israeli or Jewish oil. In any case, Israel is surrounded with Arab states, but Israel is not, and was never, part of the Arab world.

[L@mplighterM]

The use of anti anxiety drugs has increased by 20% in Israel that in it self says something. I don’t think it’s a good situation when people don’t know whether their loved ones may or may not become victims of terrorism.

Materialism is not going to improve anyone’s anxiety level. So if you have 7 computers, 3 DVD players, 3 cars, 2 houses etc. it has no bearing on anything,

You talk about 1948 and 1973 well that was then and the present is 2002.

If Islamic countries launched an all out attack on Israel in the future things might be different. Weapons have changed dramatically and they will continue to do so. I don’t want to paint any doomsday scenario but Israel needs as much support as it can get from the west.

In 1967 and 1973 it was not Israeli technology that won the battles it was technology acquired from the US.

Information regarding the 50 tons of weapons seems to have come from the CIA. I cannot imagine what the scenario would be like now if the PA had gotten hold of the weapons. Is this the last attempt of the PA to acquire weapons? I don’t think so!

Tradition doesn’t amount too much when you’re six feet under does it?

There’s only one way for Israel to survive and that is to build strong alliances. Sure Israel is a nuclear ready country but eventually that technology will available to everyone. United States helped Israel by knocking Iraq down a peg or two. Iraq had the fifth largest military in 1991 and if it would have been left unattended who knows where it would have been today. Further if Israel hadn’t destroyed Iraq’s reactor in 1981 who knows what strength that country would have had in 1991. Would it have become the second largest military power in the world? Who knows????

As it stands right now (aside from the sibling rivalry) it seems that the US is Israel’s strongest ally and protector. Should the States be doing more? I think so but then there’s that dirty little word OIL that prevents the US from supporting Israel 100%.

[sharonbn]

NewsGuy,

It seems like all the people I personally know who live in Israel, and all the people who follow Israel closely for years, are saying that it is, in fact, the worst time ever for the country.
As someone whose been living in Israel for 34 years, who knows Israel and Israelis better than you – let me inform you: All Israelis agree that these are hard times indeed. however, many of us acknowledge that they are not the worst in our history. We faced worse situations and came out of them stronger than ever. Many Israelis still believe that peace with the Palestinians is a feasible option.

I think you're mistaken and it really shows that even someone living in Israel can be either completely detached from the reality of the situation, or more likely simply living in complete denial.
The people I mentioned above are not detached or in denial. Please Please stop telling me how the people I live among are feeling and what is the moral situation in Israel.

But, ultimately, if the situation is better than ever, as you claim, then I guess there is no need to bother to improve things. Is that what you're saying?
Oh really, coem on!
Of course there are lots of things that need urgent improvement, in the security and economic fields. But again, there is not need to look at reality with complete pessimistic glasses.

a. The world voted the UN resolution that made Israel a state, because there was plenty of international support,
b. Israel had no economy at all in 1948, since it did not exist beforehand. So I'm not sure where you're coming from.
a. The vote in the UN, unfortunately, did not translate into support in the form on military equipment and health aid. Moreover, the US (United States of America, Israel's friend) posed a complete embargo of military purchase on all the region in the belief that this will stop the imminent war. Most western Europe followed this. This decision had little affect on the already-equiped Arab armies, but a devastating affect on the Israeli new army. Israel had to buy guns, ammunition and WWII surplus airplanes from the Czech republic.
b. This is totally ridicules. Not only Israel had an economy at this time with 2 major banks (Hapoalim and Barkliss) and a stock market, ALL of the state institutions, including a governing committee, parliament with political parties and elections, Worker unions, court houses, police and health care – all of these were existing and working before the declaration of Israel.

Do you deny this? Are you aware that this day-in-day-out mass murder of Israelis was NOT the situation ever before?
Of course this is true. Israelis are under daily attacks and of course this greatly affects the feelings and actions of the people. I never denied this. I myself passed the Moment café just half an hour before the bomb blast (my brother lives near by) and was shocked to hear about the bomb. When I say this is not the worst situation Israel has faced, I don’t mean the situation is good. But again and again I will say as someone who is living in Israel for a long time and knows how it was here before – these are bad times. Worse then the beginning of the violence 18 months ago, but Israel is not facing existential danger (as it has in the past.)

PS,
“Ahitofel advice” is a well known Hebrew coin phrase. No one, including Ariel Sharon holds exclusive right to it.

[sharonbn]

I just went to Maariv site and read the article regarding Danny Gur. I must say I am in complete shock and horror...

I do have the Haaretz paper from the weekend but I didn't go over all of it and didn't see the ad in question. I will search for it and post it here for you to look at.

If what Yaakov Edri (mayor of Or Akiva) claims is true, than Danny Gur's actions are very serious and dangarious. He desrves to go on trial for this.

If an Israeli citizen (even an Arab Israeli) supports Palestinian terrorist actions - this poses a real threat to Israel and should be dealt with full power.

I must state here clearly: ALL israelis, left and right, acknowlege that we are at war with the Palestinians and Arafat their leader. Arafat is the enemy of the Israeli state. I do not support the killing of Arafat but this is purely for practical reasons (I don't believe that killing him will end the violence.) If there was some magical way to kill Arafat and his supportersand get away with it, I would not hesitate.

It was also mentioned that Danny Gur confessed that he was the funding force behind the pulication of the offcers' letter. This greatly damages their cause. I feel I cannot support this movement anymore. They have placed themselves outside Israeli legitimate opposition. They deserve the title NewsGuy gave them: sabateurs.

[ibrodsky]

Sharonbn,

I commend you for drawing the right conclusions regarding the Danny Gur affair.

I am sure that as far as defending Israel from annihilation we are all on the same side here.

I think what you are missing in what Newsguy and others are saying about this being the worst danger is this: the measure of danger is not merely based on the number of people killed. It's based on a number of factors:

1. Hezbolah possessing thousands of rockets capable of reaching Northern Israel.
2. Saddam Hussein possessing scud missiles which he has proved he is willing to fire at Israel.
3. Israel is formally at "peace" with Egypt, yet Egypt incites violence against Israel and has even talked of a new war.
4. Almost the entire Islamic world has been whipped into an anti-Israel frenzy. One must wonder how it could be that Iran, hardly a next door neighbor, always has Israel at the top or near the top of its complaint list.
5. Europe has never been an enthusiastic supporter of Israel, but when a French ambassador calls Israel "That ty little country" and gets away with it it should tell you something. Anti-semitism in Europe is very much on the rise.
6. A UN conference against racism turns into a Jew- and Israel-bashing festival.
7. Even the US acts as if Israel has no real right to defend herself.
8. The biggest threat against Israel isn't conventional armies, which Israel is good at defeating, but terrorist infiltrators who are almost impossible to stop. The Islamists are willing to die to kill Israelis, and they have proved they are willing to do it for decades if that's how long it takes for them to achieve their evil goals.
9. We visit Israel and talk to others who visit Israel, and the word is that things are not good. Ten years ago, the feeling was that terrorist attacks are terrible but Israel is the region's superpower. Starting with 9/11, we have seen we are facing an enemy that has found ways to get around the usual "superpower" defense mechanisms.
10. As demoralizing as it is to listen to extreme left-wing criticism of Israel, try listening to militant Islam. These people have made destroying Israel their main goal in life. There are potentially tens of millions of these people. Look what they did to Daniel Pearl. Their eveil knows no bounds, and right now it's not clear there is a single leader in the world who is fully aware and prepared to fight this neo-Nazi movement.

To wit, militant Islam is in mad pursuit of an "Islamic atomic bomb" and I think they would wipe out Tel Aviv and even endanger the Palestinians if that's what it takes to destroy Israel. Sort of a "If we can't have it no one can have it" mentality.

I can only say in conclusion that things are much worse than you imagine.

[ibrodsky]

You seem to know a lot about Palestinians from your residence in the USA. I can tell you two things about what I know about children in the Mideast:
1. Palestinian children have the same feelings, emotions and fears as Israeli children.

What, only people living in Israel can understand the Palestinians? I have had many dealings with Palestinians during my life. I've been to the West Bank. I've studied the region's history.

Sure, there are Palestinian children with the same emotions as Israeli children. But there is an active effort to teach that such fears are cowardly, that Palestinian children should prepare themselves for martyrdom.

Perhaps you underestimate the impact of religion and culture on children.

2. The settlers in the occupied territories are making cynical use of their youth in the war against the Palestinians. I will not say they are pushing the children to the front line, but they do not take minimal precautions for the lives of the children.

Even if true as you describe, it is nothing like the way that the PA uses its children. Refusing a fence is hardly equivalent to sacrificng your life to kill Jews.

I don’t understand the relation between my possessions and the officers’ letter.

The point was that economic standard of living does not guarantee survival. The issue is which side has the will to persevere. Even if Israel's economy is the best ever, it means nothing if the PA and its Islamist allies succeed in overrunning the country.


IMO, IDF recent actions in Ramallah and the rest of PA cities, bring tremendous damage to Israel’s position and cause in international public opinion. This is exactly what Arafat (who don’t care for the suffering of his own people, as long as there diplomatic gain) is looking for.

You have to understand that the real battlefield is not the streets of Jerusalem or Ramallah. It is international media and world public opinion.

Here is perhaps the crux of our disagreement. The real battlefield is indeed Ramallah and Jerusalem, not the int'l media. If it was the int'l media, Israel lost a long time ago! But what really matters is not what outsiders say but who lives and who dies. Or in preparation for that, who has the momentum to carry them through to military victory. I am saying the PA has the momentum and the kind of material support needed to win. No one anywhere is supporting Israel in fighting the terrorists.

This is what you are suppose to conclude: Israel is a true democracy where the opposition to the government is making a strong stand. An opposition to ruling government is not a synonym for supporters of the enemy. The left wing of the Israeli political map is expressing concerns about violation of human rights by Israeli soldiers because it believes that not “all is fair at love and war”. We need to watch ourselves lest we become the savages we are fighting against.

This is all very noble. But you also have to watch to make sure the savages don't just take over. If you think that's not possible, and that Israel is so strong you and they can oppose the IDF, then you are mistaken. Israel is a tiny country, greatly outnumbered, and doesn't have the luxury of being both more noble and winning the war. The other side's evil knows no bounds; they are counting on Israel's morality to handcuff Israel from doing what is needed to win.

I’m proud to be able to say that Israel stand on moral higher ground than its rivals. This is not only because we fight for a just cause and for our lives (which is true, of course), but we do so without loosing human face and human feelings of compassion and apathy to the suffering of those who hate us. This is what makes Israel special an unique among all other world nations. IMO, the left wing are the keepers of morality and humanity in Israel. This is by no means lass important than winning military victories.

Again, noble sentiments, but of little good if they actually prevent Israel from winning.

If this is what you hear, you need to check your ears. Israelis do not blame Israel for the eruption of violence. Israelis do express criticism over some of the reactions of the Israeli army and Israeli government to the terror attacks. This does not undermine the legitimacy of the ruling government. But it is essential that the government and the army understand that they cannot do whatever they like and act with brute force against civilian population just because the other side does the same!

Nonsense. The picture presented to the outside world is that Israel is engaged in an "illegal occupation," and that Israel kicked Palestinians off their land. It isn't a question of whether my ears work properly.

Now, if even Israelis say Israel is in the wrong, then this gives Israel's opponents abroad tremendous ammunition. If I say, here in the US, that Israel is just defending itself from forces trying to destroy Israel, what I am told is that Israel is occupying other's land and that Israel's actions have driven Arabs -- out of desperation -- into being terrorists. If I argue with that I am stopped dead in my tracks: "Why even Israeli combat officers say this is the real situation."

[L@mplighterM]

There were two more attacks today in Israel and there’s no doubt in my mind that the terrorist actions will continue. Whilst this may not be the worst time in the history of the country it sure seems bad enough.

When will it end? I think everyone knows the answer.

Russia gave Iran the parts to build a nuclear reactor a few months ago. The 50 tons of weapons came from Iran. In a few years Iran will have enriched nuclear materials enabling them to build a nuclear bombs.

I think it’s just a matter of time before a small nuclear device is detonated (frightening thought) in Israel. Will it be bad enough then?

Is Israel going to give up Jerusalem? I don’t think so.

I would not like being the hunted and then if I decided to do something about it get chastised by the rest of the world. That’s exactly what is happening in Israel today.

[sharonbn]

This is the ad I found on the front page of Haaretz newspaper from last weekend (15/3/02). I will try to write it as faithful to the original as I can.
I would like first to clearly state that I do not support the opinion expressed in the ad. I’m bringing it here for you to read and judge for yourselves if this ad indeed instigate to murder Israelis, as the police file states.

The title is “HEART OF STONE”

Sharon’s peace and security plan destines as living area for the Palestinians some 10% of the “Mandate” land of Israel , without territorial continuum. They will be surrounded by blocks of settlers. In order to force the Palestinians to accept this doomsday plan, Sharon is leading a policy of massacre, hoping that the Palestinians will collapse and sign the surrender declaration, which is the peace and security agreement. In order to gain legitimacy for this massacre, Sharon needs terrorist attacks on us, Israeli citizens. For example: the order to assassinate Daqidaq, Sharon gave few hours after Arafat declared cease fire on 16/12/01. The murder of Daqidaq cancelled the cease fire and brought on a significant escalation in the number of Israeli casualties. Sharon gave the order to assassinate Ra’id Carmi after a five-days cease fire held by Arafat – this was probably much more than what Sharon wanted. As a result of this murder, a big escalation of the attacks against Israel occurred again. As a result of sabotaging these cease fires, Sharon deliberately caused the number of Israeli casualties to sky-rocket. If, for instance, Sharon had releaseed Arafat after the arrest of the first three murderers of Rehava’am Ze’evi, then again, dozens of Israeli mortalities would be spared. In general, The apathy of Sharon to the issue of terror victims is the result of a heart made of stone. He has no time, according to his saying, to console the families who suffered his cruel policy. What kind of a heart has a man who bombs civilian population with airplanes.

Although in all the incidents depicted here, it was Sharon who caused the end of the cease fire, it was nevertheless Sharon who cast the blame on Arafat, whom he calls a liar. Indeed, after Barak foolishly shattered the credibility of Arafat, the Israeli public believes the accusations against him. This is a big mistake. Arafat clearly understands that Sharon is leading him and his people towards a massacre and that without Israeli casualties this cannot be achieved. but as far as revenge actions are concerned, Arafat cannot stop them. It is true that Arafat is using lies, but what other weapon has he got against the military might of Israel. Lying is also the only surviving trick he has available for him in the complex Arab world. You need to understand that like Menahem Begin, leader of the national military organization (Ha’etzel) who stopped terror against the British only after an agreement to end occupation was reached – so must Arafat continue the terror attacks until the problem of Israeli occupation will find its solution. This is since any cease fire initiated by Arafat means giving legitimacy to the settlements. And still, twice before, he did cease the attacks: during Rabin’s last days and during some of Netanyahu’s time. He then believed their intentions are pure. If Arafat dies, there is no one to succeed him and then there can be no peace for the foreseeable future. Not every day a man like Arafat is born, who for 40 years succeeded in surviving all the while gathering a new nation, the Palestinian nation. There is also no one in the Arab world with his statue and authority that can close a deal with the Jews.

The only chance that exists today to reach a peace agreement in our time depends solely upon Arafat surviving longer than Sharon. Therefore, the lying PM needs to be expelled from office immediately. Thus, the time has come to go out once again to the streets. We did it after Yom Kippur war, after Lebanon war, after Peres’ “dirty trick” and “Four Mothers” movement did it as well, all with success.

[on the bottom it reads:]
[I]This ad is my initiative and was funded from my own pocket.

PS
As I was writing this, a question crept to my mind, should Haaretz agree to post this ad? on its front page? Should Haaretz censor itself, or allow this in he name of free speech?
I really don't know...

[NewsGuy]

sharonbn,

"As someone whose been living in Israel for 34 years, who knows Israel and Israelis better than you – let me inform you: All Israelis agree that these are hard times indeed. however, many of us acknowledge that they are not the worst in our history."

You know, one of the interesting things about having a diologue with people over the Internet anonymously is that you have no idea who you're talking to. I doubt that you know Israel and Israelis better than I do, but I will not belabor the point. If you do, then great, please educate me and the other readers.

Anyway, please tell me when, in your view, during the past 34 years Israel was in a worse situation. You pointed out the Yom Kippur war. Fine. I remember it well as a kid running out of temple to go sit in a bomb shelter in a suburb of Tel Aviv. I remember the fright, listening to a transistor radio in our building's miklat and hearing the news that the Syrians took over Mt. Hermon, while the Egyptians were sending missiles over my town, trying to hit nearby Tel Aviv. I remember well going to many shiva calls in my neighborhood after the war. It was a very sad war and many lost, but it was over in a matter of about a week.

And then came the Maalot massacre and the Savoy Hotel terrorist situation and I myself nearly died in a terrorist bombing in a central bus station in the town of Afula, but instead just being knocked down to the ground from the force of the explosion.

But I had recently recalled a dear friend of my family, an American who like us moved to Israel, who lost an arm in the Yom Kippur War. Just a few weeks ago, he was shot by a Palestinian terrorist while driving on a road connecting Jerusalem with his town. I heard his remaining hand was hit -- a tough break for someone who is a writer...

Anyway, there was never a time with daily mass murders like today, even in the worst times in the Lebanon War, when casualties were reported regularly.

This is a new and terrible situation and it requires different measures than ever before.

I'm not saying that Israelis stopped living their lives, but no one I know is the same these days. Maybe things are different in your neighborhood than in the rest of the country. I hope so.



"But again, there is not need to look at reality with complete pessimistic glasses."

That's right. But then again, there's no need to walk quietly like sheep to the slaughter.



"Israel had to buy guns, ammunition and WWII surplus airplanes from the Czech republic."

Sorry to say this, but if the US needs for Israel to do certain things so as not to offend the US coalition for the next war on Iraq, and Israel refuses, then Israel will find itself again without a fresh supply of US weapons and spare parts.

Look, clearly Israel has come a long way since before even being an independent state, but more than ever, it is subject to going along with the commands of other states who may not share the same interests as Israel.

With all the high "standard of living" that you write about, Israel operates at a huge foreign trade deficit, with an unemployment rate that some say is as high as 25%, and has never been able to stand on her own two feet economically.

So now there are some very real existential consequences, among them doing what the US says, or the foreign aid party will be over.



"Worse then the beginning of the violence 18 months ago, but Israel is not facing existential danger (as it has in the past.)"

Many would argue that the establishment of an enemy Palestinian state with no requirements for being a democracy, no enforecable limitations on its manufacturing of weapons, no mechanism in place to guarantee huge punishment in the event of further terrorism, and no requirement to stop teaching anti-Semitism and incitement to mass murder Jews is an existential danger facing Israel.


“Ahitofel advice” is a well known Hebrew coin phrase. No one, including Ariel Sharon holds exclusive right to it."

Right, it has biblical meaning.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by sharonbn
This is the ad I found on the front page of Haaretz newspaper from last weekend (15/3/02). I will try to write it as faithful to the original as I can.

Very well done, sharonb.

Thank you for taking the time and putting in all the effort to translate this extensive ad. So far as I know, it's the only English translation of the famous ad.

As for the actual content, it is full of extremist Leftist lies and baseless accusations.

Just very briefly, there was never time in the past 2 years that Arab terrorism against innocent Israelis stopped for even 48 hours. The assasinations of the terrorists mentioned were done when it was found out that they were in the midst of planning new terror attacks in the immediate future.

As for the accusation that Sharon "needed" terrorist attacks on Jewish citizens and that he used war planes to target Palestinian civilians, these are outright malicious lies by Gur, and far exceed any protections of free speech in any democratic society. I very much hope that Elyakim Rubinstein (Israel's AG) will initiate suit against Gur and Haaretz for libel.

Anyway, as to the issue of whether Gur (and Haaretz) should be found guilty of incitement to murder, the answer is clearly yes.

He urges Arafat to continue terror attacks, i.e., the mass murder of Israeli civilians, until such time as Arafat achieves all of his political objectives.

In Gur's words: "...so must Arafat continue the terror attacks until the problem of Israeli occupation will find its solution."

The comparison with Menachem Begin is just a smoke screen to cover up a monsterous incitement to murder Israelis.

I am sure that Arafat wil listen carefully and oblige Mr. Gur, who can be proud already that he is at least partially and directly a massacre of innocent Israelis.

I will also be waiting for the leader of the Leftist parties to make their own statements about this incident. Let's see them publicly dissociate themselves from Gur.

As for Haaretz, they should really be ashamed of themselves. They published and distributed literature calling for mass murder of innocent Israeli civilians and should be punished for it.

I can tell you that if a similar ad was offered to the New York Times, where Bush was being accused of intentionally targeting Afghani civilians and saying that the 9-11 attacks were the fault of the US, it would never be published.

Added:

And certainly, if anyone called for continuing terrorist attacks against Americas until the US pulled its troops out of Saudi Arabia, then you can imagine what the reaction from the public would be. No way that the NY Times (or any other national paper) would print such an ad.

Only in Israel...

[cerulean]

I definitely appreciated sharonbn's translation. Thank you for your efforts.

NewsGuy, I was also very interested to hear your personal experiences.

[L@mplighterM]

If that ad was placed in a Israeli newspaper then the editor should be arrested and charged with causing incitement.

Arafat is a liar and a terrorist ……………period

[Flame]

I really don't get this sort of thinking. I wonder if there were Jews who freely supported hitler ideas? (Not talking about the trators who were in it for money.)

[L@mplighterM]

I was sponsoring someone from Israel and he was working for me when the Yom Kippur war broke out. It was Haste la vista and away he went he had already lost part of a foot. He never returned to work for me again now he’s living in NY.

In any case I talk to quite a few Jews that have family and friends there. They are a frightened people and the economic climate isn’t the greatest. I couldn’t imagine living with the constant fear of my family being injured or killed in a terrorist attack.

These are not good times for Israel and I suspect that it’ll get a lot worse. I know for a fact that if anyone ever did anything to my family there would only be vengeance in my mind and I couldn’t care less about the US, EU or the Israeli governments. The score would be evened or at least I would die trying to get even. Perhaps guerilla warfare is the only thing that would make the situation better in Israel the government doesn’t seem to be capable. I think it would certainly level the playing field in other words fire against fire with no rules but I would hate to see that .

One thing for certain is that I wouldn’t want to see the annihilation of all the Israeli citizens.

The current scenario could be likened to Nazi Germany because the goals of the Islamic States is the complete and total elimination of Israel and its people.

[Flame]

Yes L@mplighterM... the Jews living in Israel are the most courageous people on the planet. Not only would I have been long gone... I've never stepped foot in Israel precisely for reasons of fear.

I couldn't imagine what it would be like to live surrounded by such a bloodthirsty violent maniacal population. I would snap... I"m surprised how few people do. But I am also surprised how many Jews side with the arabs who want them dead.

[L@mplighterM]

But I am also surprised how many Jews side with the arabs who want them dead.

To tell you the truth I haven't met any Jews that have any great love for Muslims. I know they exist. On a forum anyone can pose as a Jew it's the new frontier u can be what u wanna be.

Perhaps the Jews living in Israel suffer from the Stockholm syndrome I don't really know. I know that there were Jews in Europe that didn't want to rock the boat. They figured if they had a low profile then the Nazis would leave them alone.

I can sort of imagine feeling like that and I don't know what I would have done then. The thing is that there really is no reason to think that Arafat will ever love them because he has blatantly called for terrorist attacks against Jews. Today there's instant replay so it dosen't become a matter of he said that and then another person arguing that he didn't.

HE DID AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO !!!!!!!

The Americans should hook that son of a bitch up to a polygraph machine and then have a talk to him. Trouble is that machines don't work with phycopaths.

One way to spot a Muslim or a Muslim sympatizer on chats or forums that I've noticed is that they always start off so sweetly and then add a but. After the but it's always downhill and anti-semetic.

[watcher]

Originally posted by Flame
So expressing what's in your heart and deeply felt concerns is flaming?????? Flaming is basically attacking a poster personally or going on insane tirates. Expressing my opinions is not flaming.

Anyhow... this is what I think is the only solution. Every single Jew in Israel needs to relocate to the US. This is the safest place on the planet for us.

Get out, the arabs have nothing more to say. No occupation, no human rights abuse... zip zero. Get the hell out of Israel and come to America, making the Jewish community stronger. The arab world has the us by the balls and once again, the world is going after us. They weren't happy to just get rid of Jews in Europe, send survivors packing... no... can't be happy just to allow Jews to exist within their own little slice of the planet.

Israel come to America!!!!!!! It's not worth total anniliation.

Only the land of Israel is for Israel! No other land but Israel! The only total annihilation will be of those who fight against Israel! All these Centuries, Millenniums, Ages of those who fought against Israel... Israel still stands! Israel will always stand.

[Mediocrates]

"I couldn't imagine what it would be like to live surrounded by such a bloodthirsty violent maniacal population. "


Come to North Carolina, we'll larn y'all up real good. :D

[peterkin101]

A threat from outside is relativly easy to defend, a combined threat with either a minority of influential people inside or a series of acts by members of it's own military (such as refusal to participate in 'Track and Kill' operations) which are nothing short of TREASON makes an external threat nigh on impossible to stop. The Islamic entity can rage all it likes against Israel but won't succeed UNLESS the population gives themselves over to immorality (not just sexual but general law-breaking) and compromise.

I would say to those idiots who think they can bargain with Islam is check out all the suicide bombing, terrorist massacres that Israel has suffered. And these have always occured when Israel has gone soft.

Oh and finally, it may be possible on some sick and depraved website to view what happens when an 'enemy' falls into their hands-such as Wiiliam Francis Buckley, the CIA Station Chief in Beirut who had the severe misfortune to be kidnapped by Hezbollah back in 1984 c/w incriminating evidence. He was tortured to death and Hezbollah videotaped this poor man being pumped full of hallucinogeic drugs, beaten, starved and then having a tube with a balloon rammed down his throat and then having the balloon inflated to crush his internal organs to cause absolutly indescribable agony.

THAT FATE AWAITS ANY ISRAELI MILITARY/INTELLIGENCE PERSON WHOM THEY WANT INFORMATION FROM

And these are the sort of people the Israeli Left etc WANT TO NEGOTIATE WITH!!!

Israel suffered enslavement in the past for compromise with it's enemies and those enemies are more prevalent now than ever before.