U.S. involvement in mideast crisis

[Negev]

I recommend that the US stay out of the role of mediator. Let the sides determine the outcome without interference.

If the US would be a truly honset broker, then it would simply force the PA to stop all violence, and call a spade a spade, which is that the PA is nothing more than a terrorist organization.

If the US doesn't have the guts to be an honest broker, then it should simply stay out and pressure the EU top stay out too.

[Sonny]

Originally posted by Negev
I recommend that the US stay out of the role of mediator. Let the sides determine the outcome without interference.

If the US would be a truly honset broker, then it would simply force the PA to stop all violence, and call a spade a spade, which is that the PA is nothing more than a terrorist organization.

If the US doesn't have the guts to be an honest broker, then it should simply stay out and pressure the EU top stay out too.

Jerusalem Post published this analysis:

Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat was told to stop the fighting. The denial of an invitation to Washington was a signal to him that an active peace process was the only incentive for the US to help him.

The overall American posture continued to stress an even-handed approach. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was urged to continue restraint. Still, the basic American tilt was in Israel's favor. For example, Sharon was quickly invited to Washington. US policymakers clearly believed that Arafat was at fault for the crisis, having rejected both a peace deal and a cease-fire proposal presented personally and directly by the president of the US.

While headed by a former US senator, the Mitchell Commission was in no way an American operation, but a European-dominated committee. The draft preferred by the US would have been far more critical of the Palestinians. Nevertheless, Secretary of State Colin Powell made clear that his interpretation of the proposals was to have a cease-fire first, followed only later by such developments as a freeze on Jewish settlement construction.

[Gettingfedup]

I recommend the US quit giving aid to Israel. Then we (the US) go in to the Gaza and throw out ALL the Israeli squatters who have decided to settle on Arab land and send them back to areas that they were meant to build on. The way I, (and most non-Jewish Americans) see it, Israel is treating the Arabs like animals. I'm sick of Israel stealing land, taking paople's personal freedoms, and then expecting the world to back them. They are creating a scenario that is volatile for the entire world.

Israel is acting like a spoiled, greedy pig.

[Not Beilin]

Originally posted by Gettingfedup
The way I, (and most non-Jewish Americans) see it, Israel is treating the Arabs like animals. I'm sick of Israel stealing land, taking paople's personal freedoms, and then expecting the world to back them. They are creating a scenario that is volatile for the entire world.

Israel is acting like a spoiled, greedy pig.

I think most non-Jews in the U.S. view the Arabs as global problems, since Arab terrorists have attempted to bomb the NYC subway, and since Bin Ladin blew up the US embassies in Africa, and the USS Cole in Yemen, and since Saddam Hussein caused a tremendous war at the expense of the American taxpayer.

Every day we see Arabs burning American flags and it is no secret that the Muslim Arabs have always discriminated against Christians, from mass murder of Christians in Lebanon to calls for murdering Christians in Bethlehem and Nazareth, so you should probably re-think how the US citizens view the Arab -Israeli conflict.

[TexasMan]

Fed Up

I don't know what part of america you are from. All I see is the PA don't want Israel to exist. They cant whip em so the resort to blowing up jewish women and children. The only reason there are any PA left in the region is because the US has been holding the jews back. Americans are pissed off. I can't tell you how many people were calling for immediate b52 strikes on Palastine after we saw those pukes celebrating. A little rolling thunder might have ended that party. If you see all the IDF soldiers high tailing it out of an area like that I would suggest you scatter. It is not as bad as the wrath of allah but you wont know the difference. Watch some footage from vietnam to see what a b52 strike does. Archlight, rolling thunder you don't even hear the planes. 1 week of it in Hanoi and north vietnam was ready to negotiate.

[takeo]

yea, right, texasman, that's why Vietnam is today entirely controlled by the communists...
Vietnam is a good example of how violence of a well-armed army against whole populations can not succeed, how poorly armed they may be.
The main reason why Arabs are against the US is because they support Israel. And many Americans, as well as Europeans know that and even many Jews as well (for example Noam Chomsky).
The US is the only one who can pressure hard-line Israel into real concessions, giving up all territory conquered after 1967 (oficially to US thinks so too but untill now they did nothing to enforce it) and allowing back refugees. US-troops can after that stay at the borders of Israel to protect the security of Israel if that would be necessary (i don't think so) and should also be represented in palestinian state. i think Arafat will agree with US-troops. However i appreciate that they didn't move their embassy to Yerusalem, which would recognise that Eastern Yerusalem is a part of Israel. I think if you go ahead with your "military solution" the US will finally be fed up with Israel and stop all support for it.
By the way, no single palestinian contributed to the 11th september attacks and Arafat was one of the first to show indignation and offer blood for the victims.

[aid]

By the way, no single palestinian contributed to the 11th september attacks and Arafat was one of the first to show indignation and offer blood for the victims.

Hahahahahahaha.

What a comedy. Of course there is a division of labor.

Saudis and Egyptians work on people like me who live in New Yor area, and Arafat's terrorists work on Jews right in Israel.

As Zinni said, he never saw a liar like Arafat. That con artist will play any comedy, any bloody comedy.

The real Pali feelings showed in their dances of joy. I saw the face of this Pali woman in hijab ululating. That was horrible. That was the face of horror and death.

[aid]

By the way, maybe we should bomb France and Belgium with B-52s?

During WWII they collaborated with Nazism.

Today, they are collaborating with Islamism - the Nazism of our epoch.

Today it is a joke, but tomorrow?

What's going to happen when these two countries become predominantly Arab?

[takeo]

you are scaring me aid . If Israel decides to bomb France, france will not wait one second to launch its nuclear bombs and make Israel something of the past. :mad:

did Zinni say that? Are you a friend of him? I didn't hear anything he said like that in public.
There is no division of labour, as you said yourself somewhere on this board, Arabs fight eachother as well, and Arafat and the PA have absolutely nothing to do with al-quaida, i think not even hamas has links with Al-Quaida (but maybe some sympathy, as the most frustrated palestinians who lost their family or house, as well, i guess if a Palestinian shot your daughter you would as well smile when Sharon orders another terrorist attack on a Palestinian city, but in fact such human feelings are despisable whatever the "ennemy" did to you, on both sides). in fact 11th september was bad for the Palestinians, as they were identified with the attackers and lost some international sympathy.

[takeo]

I think the Israeli government of today is a fascist government, so not the Palestinians but Sharon and his fellows are the nazi's of today.(there are others as well) Your ignorant fear of "arabisation" of France is shared by some very notorious friend of yours (i mean political friend of Israel) Jean-marie Le Pen, the only one in Frensh politics not condamning the Vichy-regime and nazi-collaboration. many jews in France think that it is meaningfull that this kind of people defend Israel.

[TexasMan]

Actually vietnam broke the communists back in asia. The never again have tried to expand there. The B52 strikes allowed us to break the reigeme down so we could get the hell out. Actually the nazi reference with france was not bad. After we pummeled the heart of Naziism, germany, you don't see many facist in france anymore. Or germany for that matter. Nazis and Terrorist are pretty similar. Their goals are twisted so they use violence to force their will. If the Palestinians want to win they need to read a little about India and Ghandi.

[raven]

For the long term safety of the US there should not be a Palistinian State developed. It will merely be a permenant Terror Base supported by American Haters of the World. And as soon as it is developed, it will be taken over by Egypt and or the Saudis and or Jordan and or Syria. They dont want those crazies next to them, independant, and fully supported either. It will be Palistine in name only.

Incidently, Israel is just the first tidbit for Islam. There are a Billion Islamic people without arrable land, running out of Oil to blackmail us with, and they will gaze longingly at America next. Depite all the PR Training and made for America appearances on CNN, these people hate us just for being the Infidels were are. Too bad the our Government blacked out the dancing in the streets of Muslims everywhere on 9/11 including Detroit. Hope someone got that video and will not be afraid to put it out.

[aid]

The Palestine State is un-Israel.

If there is Palestine, there is no Israel.

[takeo]

So raven and aid, if a palestinian state is unisrael in any circumstances and Muslims are animals who want to destroy the western world, i guess there is only one solution for achieving peace: nuke them all and finish them off(do not forget one because that one will take revenge for all the others).

[takeo]

"If the Palestinians want to win they need to read a little about India and Ghandi."
You guys and Sharon have to read a little about Ghandi as well

[aid]

Oh Takeo,

I see you've become a pacifist? A follower of Ghandi?

And what happened to your Communist convictions? Since when have Communists become pacifists?

Have you not recommended just the other day that Palestinians attack Israeli soldiers instead of civilians? Is this Ghandi-like?

You are in favor of war. And war is war. If you insist that Arabs attack Jewish soldiers, you must allow Jewish soldiers defend themselves and kill Arab soliers/terrorists. La guerre est comme la guerre. N'est-ce pas?

THis is the problem with the Commissars. They will say and do whatever is profitable to them. Yesterday they were militarists, today they are Ghandians and Tolstovians, and tomorrow they will be Saddamians and Stalinists again. Marxism-Leninism does not recognize morality. Moral is that which serves their interests. It's that simple. Commissars have no shame.

So by now the ME situation looks stark clear. It is who is going to survive - who is going to live and who is is going to die.

In Russian Leninst language it is quite simple: Kto kogo?

Who prevails?

You Takeo are for killing Jews.

I am for living Jews.

You are for war.

I am for peace.

[takeo]

i have not become a follower of Ghandi nor a pacifist, but someone told me i should... while he himself predicts violence and revenge.


"Have you not recommended just the other day that Palestinians attack Israeli soldiers instead of civilians?
You are in favor of war. And war is war. If you insist that Arabs attack Jewish soldiers, you must allow Jewish soldiers defend themselves and kill Arab soliers/terrorists. La guerre est comme la guerre. N'est-ce pas? "

certainement pas, because those Israeli soldiers don't belong there, they are an occupiing force, remember? one have the right to shoot at an occupiing force.

"THis is the problem with the Commissars. They will say and do whatever is profitable to them. Yesterday they were militarists, today they are Ghandians and Tolstovians, and tomorrow they will be Saddamians and Stalinists again. Marxism-Leninism does not recognize morality. Moral is that which serves their interests. It's that simple. Commissars have no shame. "

they have a gaol, justice and equality for human kind, and indeed sometimes they use strange methods to reach that goal. This is exactly how zionists behave for reaching their goal, one time they are pacifists, the other time they preech war, one time they are for international laws(when it's in their interests) the other time they completely ignore them, ...

"So by now the ME situation looks stark clear. It is who is going to survive - who is going to live and who is is going to die. "

You seem to be quite happy about this...

"You Takeo are for killing Jews. "

this statement is so ridiculoous that i won't even bother answering it.

"I am for living Jews. "

no, you're not, otherwise you would accept compromises and want peace with the Palestinians.
you are for killing palestinians.

"You are for war.
I am for peace.
"
that was not the opinion of all the people i know who read this forum (americans, frensh, Jews and Arabs alike), in fact you say that meretz, the only peace-loving party in Israel, is a traitors-party, that says enough...
the only peace you will accept is one without palestinians...

[takeo]

just look how you will react to the peace-plan i posted...
you prefere the military solution...
:rolleyes:

[aid]

they are an occupiing force, remember? one have the right to shoot at an occupiing force.

I remeber everything, even what you want to forget.

1. Until there is a peace settlement, the borders are not fixed. This means that there is no occupying force because how do you know whether this force is located on ots territory or a different state. In this particualr case especially since on the territory between the Jordan river and see exists only one state - Israel. So I don't know what you are talking about.

2. Even if it were an occupying force, what do you mean by the "right" to shoot at it? Did Germans have the right to shoot at the occupying force of the US, GB, France, USSR? The first three countries are still in effect occupying Germany. Can you tell me what the French troops are doing in Germany? Do the Japanese have the right to shoot at the US troops on the Okinawa?

As the troops of the Allies Israeli troops are where they are now as a result of defensive war - resistance - against Arab aggression. Israeli troops are there to safeguard Israel' security and existence. I don't know what you are referring to as the right to shoot at the Jewish soldiers.

3. But if, as you insist, one has the right to shoot at you, you have the right to defend yourself. The right to self-defense is absolute. If the enemies of Israel have the right to shoot at her military force, surely the IDF has the right to shoot in defense, and destroy the enemy. Will you deny that? Or you want all the shooting be in one direction only? But in that case it is not war anymore, but more like Baby Yar. And this is not going to work, Takeo, even for your beautiful eyes of a Communist Commissar.

4. How can you deny that you are for war, that you are a warmonger if you call for shooting "at an occupiing force". Whether you consider it justified or not, it is obvious that shooting is not peace. Shooting is war, Takeo, it ain't peace, unless you use newspeak: War is Peace and Peace is War, and KGB is Love. You are calling for war, and you are on the side of the exterminators of the Jewish people in this war. There is no way out of this, Takeo.


:)

[raven]

As for Ghandi: this wasnt as reported. It went like this--" Do it the so called non-violent way with me..OR...right behind me there are a million violent people that I (what a terrible shame) cant control." Blackmail. This wasnt a real non violent thing at all. And it wont be if the Pals try to mimic this either. It will be set up the same way.

As for what is about to happen in the US, IF the US doesnt stop what is happening now with Islamic Americans, in about 25 years you will see yet another group of Islamists declare their own State within the US. Right now peoples from the ME are congegating in their own areas in several states, so much so, that the American Officials of these areas are unable and frieghtened to inforce American Rules and Law. This is happening in Northern Va. I hear it is happening in NJ and Texas and Calif. Separate housing, separate schooling, under the guize of Religion, exclusive use of their own as Attornies and Physicians etc. Business with only their own and mostly in CASH. Almost a separate Culture developing here. ( Not just the first generation) A Culture that does NOT support most American Values. This does not bode well long term for America.

There is a pattern of behavior. Look at India, Phillipines, Africa, East Timor, Eastern Europe, China, Russia. All are worried about Separatist Islamic Movements in their own Countries. Think no one noticed?

[takeo]

"1. Until there is a peace settlement, the borders are not fixed. This means that there is no occupying force because how do you know whether this force is located on ots territory or a different state. In this particualr case especially since on the territory between the Jordan river and see exists only one state - Israel. So I don't know what you are talking about. "

The UN-declarations stated that all parts were israeli military is present that didn't belong to Israel before 1967 still don't belong to Israel and are thus occupied territories. Besides, by not giving the people living there the right to israeli citizenship it means that even israeli constitution considers this territories not be a part of israel as well.



"2. Even if it were an occupying force, what do you mean by the "right" to shoot at it? Did Germans have the right to shoot at the occupying force of the US, GB, France, USSR? The first three countries are still in effect occupying Germany. Can you tell me what the French troops are doing in Germany? Do the Japanese have the right to shoot at the US troops on the Okinawa? "

The germans were indeed an occupied country, untill the formation of of the two independant germanies and thus Germans had the right to resist them (they did untill Hitler resigned). but germany clearly started the war, whereas Israel started the 1967 war. after independance of Germany and Japan foreign troops had to be legitimised by the governments of those countries, if they decide one day they have to leave than they have to leave, and also even today they have to act according to the laws of germany and Japan. No similarity with palestine at all.

"As the troops of the Allies Israeli troops are where they are now as a result of defensive war - resistance - against Arab aggression. Israeli troops are there to safeguard Israel' security and existence. I don't know what you are referring to as the right to shoot at the Jewish soldiers. "

Israel started the 1967 war and refused to rethreat, that is a contiuating war-declaration to the security and existance of the Palestinian people ... the presence of Israeli troops on palestinian soil is as acceptable as the presence of iraqi troops in Kouweit. Of course people have the right to fight them.

"3. But if, as you insist, one has the right to shoot at you, you have the right to defend yourself. The right to self-defense is absolute. If the enemies of Israel have the right to shoot at her military force, surely the IDF has the right to shoot in defense, and destroy the enemy. Will you deny that? Or you want all the shooting be in one direction only? But in that case it is not war anymore, but more like Baby Yar. And this is not going to work, Takeo, even for your beautiful eyes of a Communist Commissar. "

they have the right to defend themselves against the people who attacked themselves (by the way that's why Serbia was bombed, only because they fought back at rebels who attacked them in a recognised part of Serbia), but not against unarmed civilians, not against demonstrators not armed with guns, not the right to displace populations and import your own population, etc.

"4. How can you deny that you are for war, that you are a warmonger if you call for shooting "at an occupiing force". Whether you consider it justified or not, it is obvious that shooting is not peace. Shooting is war, Takeo, it ain't peace, unless you use newspeak: War is Peace and Peace is War, and KGB is Love. You are calling for war, and you are on the side of the exterminators of the Jewish people in this war. There is no way out of this, Takeo. "

I am for peace, but as long as israeli forces don't want to leave voluntarily the occupied territories or negotiate their withrawel, than the palestinians have the right to and should resist to their presence, unless troops make a white flag and disappear into Israel, in that case it would be illegal to shoot at them. I am for peace but only a just peace, not a peace were israel receives peace but doesn't comply to international and palestinian demands and withdraw its troops. One can't have it all!!!
the same now in Libanon, killing Israeli soldiers at the border now is illegal, it was not when israel occupied Libanon.



"As for Ghandi: this wasnt as reported. It went like this--" Do it the so called non-violent way with me..OR...right behind me there are a million violent people that I (what a terrible shame) cant control." Blackmail. This wasnt a real non violent thing at all. And it wont be if the Pals try to mimic this either. It will be set up the same way. "

So, you are against Ghandi as well... and you recognise that any occupied people, even Ghandi's should have a treath to violence to achieve liberation.

"As for what is about to happen in the US, IF the US doesnt stop what is happening now with Islamic Americans, in about 25 years you will see yet another group of Islamists declare their own State within the US. Right now peoples from the ME are congegating in their own areas in several states, so much so, that the American Officials of these areas are unable and frieghtened to inforce American Rules and Law. This is happening in Northern Va. I hear it is happening in NJ and Texas and Calif. Separate housing, separate schooling, under the guize of Religion, exclusive use of their own as Attornies and Physicians etc. Business with only their own and mostly in CASH. Almost a separate Culture developing here. ( Not just the first generation) A Culture that does NOT support most American Values. This does not bode well long term for America. "

blabla, you are talking as a member of the KKK in the 50's about the negro's and the Jews. this is BS.

"There is a pattern of behavior. Look at India, Phillipines, Africa, East Timor, Eastern Europe, China, Russia. All are worried about Separatist Islamic Movements in their own Countries. Think no one noticed?"

There are not only separatist Islamic movements...
what about Basque separatists, corsican, northern ireland, eastern Timor (situation quite similar to palestine), many christian resistance movements in africa, indian groups in latin america, the fight in moldova between Christian Russians and moldavians, the war in yougo between Serbs and Croats, in china not only islamic uygurs but as well budist mongols and tibetans, in india and sri lanka tamil resistance, etc. etc.

[raven]

The serious ongoing problem in many countries are separatist movements by Islamists in those very same countries. Very few are worried about the Basques except Spain. Thats rediculous.

In the US, this Islam is "under the radar" now and know what NOT to say in public. But they are stucturing their society PAST the first generation to live apart, to school their children apart, and to deal mostly with each other.

This is NOT what America is about. The whole idea is Freedom and Democracy but --out of many cultures--ONE. Thats what makes this place different from all other places. And it has worked--until recently.

If you dont think that people are looking at the situation and NOT liking this at all, you are wrong. You come from a different culture. Thank G-d Im from here and NOT where you come from. The wine is nice, the food is great, the city and towns are charming. Too bad the people are so nasty. No one...and I mean NO ONE likes them.

[L@mplighterM]

Give up on the Arab he isn't Jewish.

[Negev]

Lamp,

You think that there aren't plenty of Jews who think like him that Israel is a terrible state and that sharon is a war criminal and that the Palis are a pitiful oppressed people?

Just read haaretz. Even many israelis think like him. we know they're a bunch of leftists but a lot of people think those things. I say to them 'go live with your arab friends and let's see how long you'll last.'

Anyway what's the difference if takeo's Jewish or not?

[raven]

L@mp: I would but I have a really low tolorence for BS and Fantasy history. I also have a low tolorence for Bigotry the old hatreds discuised as mere Nationalism. Every once in a while I need to SAY something about it to people who think they are going to get away with the same old same old.

[takeo]

Lomplighter, I guess there should exist some medical or psychiatric treatment for this worse case of "arabafobia" you have currently. It isn't racism anymore, it is sick. I'm not Arab, even your extremist friend Aid doesn't think so.

"The serious ongoing problem in many countries are separatist movements by Islamists in those very same countries. Very few are worried about the Basques except Spain. Thats rediculous. "

Well, few people outside Israel are really concerned about Hamas and Hesbollah as well as they never committed suicide attacks outside Israel/occupied territories...Spanish are as much concerned about eta as israel is about Hamas as GB was about the IRA as the Mexicans are about the zapatistas, etc.
separatism and/or freedom fighting/guerilla/terrorism are a serious treat to any country facing it, if it's Islamic or not doesn't really matter. Of course in some countries guerilla/terrorism is more acceptable than in others(if their are now democratic means and if their people is being oppressed). Don't forget that the founders of Israel (Ben Goerion) were terrorists themselves.

"In the US, this Islam is "under the radar" now and know what NOT to say in public. But they are stucturing their society PAST the first generation to live apart, to school their children apart, and to deal mostly with each other.
This is NOT what America is about. The whole idea is Freedom and Democracy but --out of many cultures--ONE. Thats what makes this place different from all other places. And it has worked--until recently. "

If you react like that you can say that you don't belong to America because you have preserved your Jewish identity. Many cultures in the US have their own communities, for example the Asians and the Hispanics. Some Jews also send their children to Israel, so you can say as well that this is an attempt not to integrate in US-society. This is racist talk, it is always remarkable how sensible you are about complaints about Jews in any country (the word anti-semitism is used very frequently and most of the times it is exaggerated, someone complaining about Israeli policy is already labelled an anti-semite) but how easily you make racist remarks to other etnic groups living in the same country.


"If you dont think that people are looking at the situation and NOT liking this at all, you are wrong. You come from a different culture. Thank G-d Im from here and NOT where you come from. The wine is nice, the food is great, the city and towns are charming. Too bad the people are so nasty. No one...and I mean NO ONE likes them."

Really noone, how come that so many Americans come to visit France and are obsessed by Frensh culture and people?
without France the US wouldn't even exist.
in Europe, few people really like the US-citizens or government, only their products as film, mc. donalds, etc.
Thank God I live in a democratic, wealthy and multi-cultural country where money (as in the US) or your etnic origin (as in Israel) doesn't dominate all society including politics.

[L@mplighterM]

Negrev you're right it dosen't make any difference what he is. That's a good point.

My wife thinks he's a jew but my son and I don't.

Maybe somewhere along the line he picked up a bum gene or his mother dropped him when he was a baby.

You're right people like that should live among the Arabs that's most likely the best place for them. All they have to do is say they love the Arabs and everything will be ok.

[L@mplighterM]

Thought I'd pass this along:

Islamic Terror: The Revised Koran

Posted October 29, 2001

By Debra Emmes

<http://www.jdl.org/images/koran.gif> How would an Arab or Muslim feel if the Koran was revised and had the words Jews and Christians removed and in their place the words Arabs and Muslims inserted? Allow me to quote from the Revised Edition of the Koran, which in part would read thusly:

"O believers, make war on the Arabs and Muslims who dwell around you. Let them find firmness in you." (Surah 9, Section 123)

"Fight those Arabs and Muslims who believe not in the God of Jacob even if they be People of the Book until they agree to pay the tribute in recognition of their submissive state." (Surah 9, Section 29)

"You will be called to fight a mighty nation of Arabs and Muslims; fight them until they embrace the God of Jacob." (Surah 48, Section 16)

"Then fight and slay the Arabs and Muslims wherever you find them. And seize them, beleaguer them and lie in wait for them, in every stratagem (of war)." (Surah 9, Section 5)

"Those who believe fight in the cause of the God of Jacob; And those who reject the true faith of the God of Jacob fight in the cause of Evil; So fight ye against the Arabs and Muslims, those Friends of Satan ...." (Surah 4, Section 10, Chapter 76)

"Take not the Arabs and Muslims as friends or protectors." (Surah 5, Section 8, Chapter 51)

"The Arabs and Muslims perverted the things they learned in the Covenant of the God of Jacob." (Surah 3, Section 19, Chapter 187)

"The God of Jacob has turned his face from Arabs and Muslims, and Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and Atheists should do the same." (Surah 4, Section 7, Chapter 47)

For the last several weeks I have heard all the Arab and Muslim advocacy groups claim how their constituents are among the best Americans. If that is the case, why then do they say nothing about the Koran's advocacy of violence against Jews and Christians? The fact is some Arab Muslims are "true believers" of Islam, and are following the dictates of their religion. Perhaps now is the time for Islamic clerics in America to stop spreading hatred and calls for war against Jews and Christians. Edit the Koran and make amends with the Jews and Christians.

<http://www.jdl.org/images/backtojdl.jpg>

[Negev]

The kuran is definitely not some pacifist book. Neither is the Torah.

But there are some good muslims and some extremist terrorist ones. Better to concentrate on fighting the terrorists and not on muslims as a whole otherwise we stoop to their level. lower than a slimy bin laden worm under a rock.

[takeo]

Incredible, i can't believe my eyes, did i just read something reasonable, some common sence in the last post of Negev???
Yeah Torah or Qoran, for me it's pretty much the same if I read it, as I'm not religious, both quite intolerant for other religions.
Interesting to know that I'm the object of your family-conversations Lomplighter.


"You think that there aren't plenty of Jews who think like him that Israel is a terrible state and that sharon is a war criminal and that the Palis are a pitiful oppressed people?
Just read haaretz. Even many israelis think like him. we know they're a bunch of leftists but a lot of people think those things.
Anyway what's the difference if takeo's Jewish or not?"

That's right

"I say to them 'go live with your arab friends and let's see how long you'll last.' "

Why should I? I live among Arabs here and have no problem with most of them, some are Palestinian(in both Arabs and Jews there are good and bad people, as everywhere, it may sound like a cliché but i's reality). But that is not the point. The point is that Arabs are also people and have the same rights as Jews and should be treated as such. If you ignore their rights, one shouldn't be surprised of the consequences, this is not only true for Arabs, but everywhere in the world. This case is more special and hot news because both Israel and the Palestinians have powerfull friends.
You people have probably never spoken to an Arab before in your life and have certainly not visited Palestinian refugee camps but still you think you know all about them.

[L@mplighterM]

It's the application of the Koran that makes a terrorist.
Islam and the Koran equals one there's no separation. Great evil follows the application of the Koran.

Is there anyone here that wants to argue that Islamic Fundamentalists follow the Torah or the New Testament??????

Is there anyone here that wants to argue that the supporters* of Islamic Fundamentalists are not followers of the Koran??????????????????????

*except takeo

[raven]

Bin Laden's Joy --Mona Charon

http://www.NewsAndOpinion.com --
ONE would rather not be forced to contemplate pure evil at this time of year, but the world marches on and today dawns with a videotape of Osama bin Laden exulting in the deaths of thousands of us and promising more to come.


Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz demonstrated admirable word choice when he called the tape "disgusting." And it's obvious that decent people throughout the world will respond in like fashion. The mass murderer accepts the praise of his guest, an unknown sheikh, who rhapsodizes about the treacherous, murdering attacker of unsuspecting innocents seated opposite: "Hundreds of people used to doubt you and few only would follow you until this huge event happened. Now hundreds of people are coming out to join you." Apparently murdering innocents is what inspires them. Certainly Bin Laden believes as much. "When people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature they will like the strong horse." Bin Laden then boasts that his barbarity has helped bring people in the West to Islam and thus to G-d. "I heard someone on Islamic radio who owns a school in America say: 'We don't have time to keep up with the demands of those who are asking about Islamic books to learn about Islam.'" Not quite for the reasons he may hope.


We've learned so much in the past three months about ISLAM-IISM and yet it still has to power to stupefy. To watch men who clearly think of themselves as pious rejoicing in treachery and destruction is chilling. Usually, people who commit evil acts at least possess the guilty virtues of euphemism or hypocrisy. They attempt to clothe their viciousness in noble garments. It isn't killing innocent Israeli men, women, and children, the defenders of Hamas explain, it is "revenge" for Israel's targeting of a terrorist mastermind (who will usually be described as an "innocent Palestinian").


Not so with Al Qaeda and its admirers who are willing to embrace pure evil for the sake of a twisted image of God. In The Abolition of Man, C.S. Lewis argued that no civilization on earth (and he included Islamic civilization) has ever embraced treachery over loyalty, cowardice over courage, lying over honesty. Lewis had not seen Islamism. But then, Islamism is not a civilization, it is a band of criminals. But how large is its following?


Bin Laden seems quite sure that mass murder has an eager audience among the faithful. One leaves to scholars the debate over whether there are aspects intrinsic to Islam that encourage such deformations of the religion. (The Koran, for example, does speak in extremely militant language about unbelievers and even recommends wife beating in certain instances.) But there is no doubt about, and no sense obscuring the fact, that while majorities of Islamic believers were probably repelled by bin Laden's atrocities, a disturbing number of Islamic set ital leaders end ital, not just in the Arab world but in the United States, subscribe to radical Islam and openly or clandestinely rejoice in America's victimization.

( READ THIS)

JWR's Daniel Pipes, in Commentary magazine, quotes Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, an American Muslim leader, who estimates that "80 percent of the mosques" in the United States have been taken over by "extremists." They believe that a Muslim cannot legitimately live among unbelievers unless his goal is to convert them. Nor can radical Islamists live comfortably in a pluralistic society in which church and state are separated. Zaid Shakir, for example, formerly the Muslim chaplain at Yale, has said that Muslims cannot accept the legitimacy of the American secular system, "which is against the orders and ordainments of Allah. The orientation of the [Koran] is pushes us in the exact opposite direction." Siraj Wahaj, the first Muslim cleric to offer the morning invocation before the House of Representatives, later served as a character witness for Omar Abdel Rahman, the blind sheikh found guilty of conspiracy to overthrow the government of the United States in the case of the first World Trade Center bombing.


***With plentiful EXCUSES and politically correct explanations, several newspapers have reported that Islamic schools in places like Jersey City, New Jersey and Potomac, Maryland are teaching their kids to sympathize with radical Islam and despise the United States.


So while bin Laden's obscene tape sears the hearts of good listeners, there are large numbers, even here in the U.S., who will thrill to his message.

--------------------------------------------------

***This is what is developing and we have to face this, at least in the US. I live a few miles from Potomac Md. We have watched how this and other areas of Md. and nearby Northern Va. have been transformed into a mini- Islamic Countries. (Separatist Communities) Peace Officers in a town-let in Northern Va. are afraid to enforce the Law within the Islamic area there. They are afraid of the political power of the residents there. If something of a criminal nature occurs and there IS an arrest and there IS a trial, you hear practically nothing about it on the Media. The Reporters are too are afraid to report and follow the story. This is not a good thing.

[L@mplighterM]

The name of the game is to infiltrate followed by world conquest. Islamic Fundamentalists are all around us waiting and biding their time.

The enemies of Freedom and Democracy could be anyone. At least the US is taking some steps in ousting some of the illegal aliens.

I don't lay awake night dreaming about it because what’s the use. At this point what’s the difference it’s going to happen eventually and there’s nothing that’s going to be done about it.

These people are killers and I sure the hell wouldn’t want to be a reporter exposing what goes on in the mosques.

[L@mplighterM]

Here's part of an article from jpost.com


The attack, shortly after 4:15 p.m. near the junction of Jaffa Road and King George Avenue, also came a day after a fiery speech by Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat in which he called for God to give him the "honor of martyrdom in my steadfastness for Jerusalem." According to some observers, the message contained in Arafat's speech had only one clear interpretation for Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and his own Fatah-Tanzim organizations - a continuation of the armed struggle.

I saw Arafat waving his finger, smiling and theathening Israel with violence yesterday on CNN.

How much should a Nation take before they arrest the man and charge him with terrorism????????? Find him guilty and execute him.

[raven]

If the World, including Religious Institutions, States, Democratic Free Countries, Human Rights Organizations (give me a break) etc. etc. can prop up THAT for 30 years...if the World can keep that known murderer in slendor for years and turn themselves inside out to find one reason or another for their support, and again close their eyes, I think we have to ask WHY? A real serious --why?

All we ever had to do was say- NO. And mean it.

And the weasily excuse that Arafat was better than the others is as bad as the excuse of the Germans that " They didnt know." Neither is true.

The support for this man and his ilk has done damage to our very souls.

[L@mplighterM]

Sharon should've given the order to pop him back in the 1980's but he didn't. He was deported from Lebanon to Tunesia and the Israeli Government let him come back.

Yesturday he clearly called for the terrorist activities to continue and they did. I don't know what tomorrow will bring one can only imagine.

Seems like the whole world watches and cares little if at all.

[Negev]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Sharon should've given the order to pop him back in the 1980's but he didn't.

big mistake.

now the price is being paid.

[takeo]

Religious extremists use the Bible, the Torah and the Qoran to commit mass-murder. The person who killed Rabin was also deeply religious, as well as the Jewish colonists who killed many innocent civilians in the name of God. One can always abuse any religious or holy book with false interpretations to justifie mass-murder on innocent people.
of course you won't listen to me, as it could damage your particularly firebrand version of Jewish fascism, fascism that leads to violence and war, as always.



"The attack, shortly after 4:15 p.m. near the junction of Jaffa Road and King George Avenue, also came a day after a fiery speech by Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat in which he called for God to give him the "honor of martyrdom in my steadfastness for Jerusalem." According to some observers, the message contained in Arafat's speech had only one clear interpretation for Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and his own Fatah-Tanzim organizations - a continuation of the armed struggle.
I saw Arafat waving his finger, smiling and theathening Israel with violence yesterday on CNN. "

I saw Sharon threatening the Palestinians with violence and terror ever since he came to power.
Arafat always mention Jerusalem in his speech, not only this time.
By the way if you kill arafat or not, he is finished already, Israel destroyed him and now the radicals have taken over, nobody listens anymore to an old man who can't even move freely and calls for peace in a time the israeli army does nothing else than killing Palestinians, Palestinian radio and television (terrorism???) , Palestinian powerplants, in other words, targetting the whole palestinian population. By the way the current attack in Yerusalem is the result of the killing of 5 hamas-leaders recently without any direct reason. The army also attacked a prison where the palestinian police kept islamic militants. Of course this means no more extremists will be locked up. hamas has said that it will no longer respect the cease-fire it agreed upon in december because Israel continued its actions. this means that much more is to come, hard times for people in israel and palestine, good times for extremists.
Sharon has clearly choosen for a war against the whole Palestinian population instead of against the extremists only. He did so because he didn't want to do any concessions in a peace-deal. now israel and its population will be paying the price for his decision, unfortunately.

[L@mplighterM]

I've read the Koran and I think there's little doubt that every bit of terrorist activity by the Arabs in Israel comes from that book.

Video's have been released showing the young adults kissing and touching the book to their forehead prior to embarking on their terrorist missions.

The battle in Israel has it's foundation squarely in Islamic Fundamentalism and the Koran.

I have stated below just a few of the verses from the Koran, which support this fact. As the Koran is supposed to be timeless and universal, the verses in it hold true even today and are used everyday by pious Muslims to justify their brutal and terrorist activities.

1. (Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

In the above verse the great prophet of Islam, Mohammed, is giving step by step instructions on how to torture and kill the unbelievers if they don't follow Islam. He is clearly instructing Muslims to commit cold-blooded murder in the name of religion.

2. (Koran 2:216) "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."

The above verse was stated by Mohammed after his first terrorist attack. He and his followers mercilessly massacred four innocent and unarmed merchants at Nakhla in 623 AD. The massacre came in January, the sacred month of Rejeb. Arabs regard this month as a sacred month, when warfare and violence is forbidden. Since this barbaric criminal act was led and sanctioned by the "great" prophet Mohammed, we can conclude that Islam's sacred activities include loot and cold-blooded murder of innocent individuals. The very beginnings of Islam are stained with the blood of innocents.

[takeo]

Your hatred against more than one/fifth of the world population is astonishing. This is your particular interpretation of the Qoran, altough i'm not religious i have studied in university both the Torah and the Qoran. Both are quite intolerant for other religions (the Bible as well), but the Qoran especially recognises Jews and Christians as people who know some part of the truth, it also stresses non-violence and forgiveness of human beings and let the punishment come from God, as does the Torah and the Bible.
In the Qoran you won't find that women should wear burka's or veals.
i don't have Qoran here now, but will search your verses. i think if i would search i will find similar things in the Torah that could be interpreted as such.

[L@mplighterM]

Do you deny that the Islamic Terrorists kiss the Koran before committing terrorist acts.

I don't really care what you have studied. Terrorist acts are commited against the very foundation of civilization every day by you people. How many links do you want quoting Islamic scholars?????? 10, 100, 1000 ?????????? I guess you are the only one that knows the truth. You want verses I can give you hundreds from the Koran.

By the way who mentioned hate?????? Not me!!!!!! I never mentioned hate once. So learn to read.

The facts speak for themselves I didn't write the book so stow your BS. Save your BS for someone else I'm not stupid enough to buy it.

Next thing you're going to tell me that the terrorists don't believe that they will be given 72 virgins in heaven for their wonderfull deeds. I'm not buying your BS.

As far as burka's go I'll tell you it does mention them you just don't understand what you read. Get a refund on your religious studies.

Who cares what you can find in the Torah????? I don't!!!!!!!! and in any event Judism dosen't practise everything in the first 5 Chapters of the Old Testament.

[takeo]

So you're not religious?
Anyway the interpretation you gave of the verses you sited is false, as i told you you can give any interpretation to a religious book, as do the many Muslim, Christian and Jewish sects.
yes, those extremists kiss the Qoran, so what? So because a religious group in Uganda used the Bible to commit mass-suicide it means everyone believing in the Bible is a bad or insane person?
other terrorist groups as the liberation front are atheistic and/or christian (the founder of the PLFP was, killed by Israel). It means this is not a religious war but an etnic war between palestinians and Israeli Jews. Israel took their land and now they fight and use terrorism to get it back. I don't believe in the "clash of civilisations" theory of Huntington, by now the academic world has come to the conclusion that this theory sucks. war is always about economic or etnic differences and oppression.

[takeo]

or about geo-political or socio-political differences .
Just in a few cases about religion.

[L@mplighterM]

Sure they are false *GGGG* Islamic Scholars could tell you they were true but they would still be false. I think if someone pointed to a white cloud you would insist it was black.

The Koran dosen't tell you that women have to be modes hence the burka's. Allright !!!!!!!!! Whatever !!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOW !!!!! Geo and Socio political differences.

Well I think Samuel dosen't know what he's talking about when it comes to fundamentalism. I disagree for the most part.

It's not land in the middle-east it's power and jealousy. You Arabs see what Israel has become and want it. Further you're led down the garden path by your leaders. And the Islamic Fundamentalists deal with it in a religious way.

By the way what I meant was I don't care what interpretation can be made from the Torah. I never stated that I wasn't religious.

[takeo]

"The Koran dosen't tell you that women have to be modes hence the burka's. Allright !!!!!!!!! Whatever !!!!!!!!!!!!! "

Please, mister specialist, show me where in the Qoran is indicated that women should wear burka's.

"It's not land in the middle-east it's power and jealousy. You Arabs see what Israel has become and want it. "

I'm not an Arab but whatever. if someone takes your house and doesn't leave and makes it more beautiful than it was, of course that will provoke jealousy, but anyway you have the right to ask your house back. And if he doesn't give it back, than you will force him to give it back by all means. whatever the leaders may say, Palestinians want an end of occupation and the right to return to their family's houses. All of them.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
I've read the Koran and I think there's little doubt that every bit of terrorist activity by the Arabs in Israel comes from that book.

Video's have been released showing the young adults kissing and touching the book to their forehead prior to embarking on their terrorist missions.

The battle in Israel has it's foundation squarely in Islamic Fundamentalism and the Koran.

SORRY LEFT OUT THE SOURCE WHEN I CUT AND PASTED.
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/terrorist1.html

I have stated below just a few of the verses from the Koran, which support this fact. As the Koran is supposed to be timeless and universal, the verses in it hold true even today and are used everyday by pious Muslims to justify their brutal and terrorist activities.

1. (Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

In the above verse the great prophet of Islam, Mohammed, is giving step by step instructions on how to torture and kill the unbelievers if they don't follow Islam. He is clearly instructing Muslims to commit cold-blooded murder in the name of religion.

2. (Koran 2:216) "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."

The above verse was stated by Mohammed after his first terrorist attack. He and his followers mercilessly massacred four innocent and unarmed merchants at Nakhla in 623 AD. The massacre came in January, the sacred month of Rejeb. Arabs regard this month as a sacred month, when warfare and violence is forbidden. Since this barbaric criminal act was led and sanctioned by the "great" prophet Mohammed, we can conclude that Islam's sacred activities include loot and cold-blooded murder of innocent individuals. The very beginnings of Islam are stained with the blood of innocents.

[takeo]

I'm still waiting to see where in the Qoran is stated women should wear burka's ?

[L@mplighterM]

I know exactly where in the Koran it says that women should wear burka's. If a third party poses the question I'll post the passage from the Koran. Third party is defined as an non- Arab that has posted before.

[takeo]

lol
it is a poor excuse to hide that you lied.
Besides i'm a non-arab, even if for me, human beings are human beings, doesn't matter if they are Jews or Arabs they deserve the same rights, of course that doesn't make me a real Jew in your fascist mind, so be it.

[Solon]

Originally posted by takeo
of course that doesn't make me a real Jew in your fascist mind, so be it.

I've been lurking here for a while and posting rarely but I will venture to say that the only time you'll be considered a Jew is when your French anti-semitic comrades come to lynch you.

[aid]

Please don't upset Takeo, please.

Commies and Islamists of the world are united.

[L@mplighterM]

I told you if some other established member asks me I'll post it. Otherwise go fish.

[raven]

The Koran, like all the rest of these Religious Books, comes out of a particular culture. The culture is always there before the book is written. The Peoples of the Old Testament ( anti-ancient religion and its usual practices) and the New Testament (anti-Paganism)viered away from many many of the "old ways". Both these books were a statement AGAINST the old ways. A problem with the Islamic off shoot of the origional monothesistic idea is that this version of Monotheism carries the old attitudes and the old behaviors of the Arab World right with it. There is more Arab Culture in the Koran than there is Islam.

There is another difference. The three main versions of Monotheism --all --written eons ago extole attitutes and behaviors not acceptable for today. Judiasm and Christianity have rejected or attempted to reject the literal translation of these things to a large extent, but Islam has rejected very little of the literal translation. They reject these "old" behaviors and attitudes, only for Western consumption. In daily life, in reality, in many Islamic Countries, with a huge amount of peoples, these attitudes and behaviors (that are outright illegal in Western Society) are the preferred way. The usual NOT the unusual. Its NOT just the minority. This IS the Islamic Street. This is a problem. Go to http://www.memri.org and real the debate in Iran about Flogging-- just for one example.

[takeo]

"I've been lurking here for a while and posting rarely but I will venture to say that the only time you'll be considered a Jew is when your French anti-semitic comrades come to lynch you."

More likely i will be lynched by settlers in my next visit to the occupied territory! Last time i felt already really treatened.

The problem is not the religious book themselves, but the interpretation, both in Jewish as in Muslim religion (as in Christian). As we can see in Israel today some people take the book literally and prefere to live accoring to rules and habits of another time, the same in many Arab and muslim countries. i have been to Iran and can tell you Iran is lot more modern in mentality than for example Saoudi Arabia or Pakistan(not to mention Afghanistan). Most people hate the islamic regime and have a modern interpretation of islam, conserving the real ethical basics and practises but not the cultural assets that are usually identified with religion(burka's, etc.), nor the power of the Islamic establishments (mullah, etc.) . Many people in Israel as well are religious and don't behave like those orthodoxes.

[takeo]

anyway, a Jew is a Jew whatever political or religious belief he has, or do you think you have to be member of Likud and praise Sharon at least once a day to be a real Jew?

[takeo]

lomplighter you know as wel as i do that burka's are not mentioned in the Qoran, so cut the crap.

[aid]

Originally posted by takeo
anyway, a Jew is a Jew whatever political or religious belief he has, or do you think you have to be member of Likud and praise Sharon at least once a day to be a real Jew?

A Jew who is a Jew only by the formal definition of Halacha, but otherwise is a red Fascist, must curse Israel five times a day while repeatedly hitting himself on his head with the two volumes of Das Kapital.

[aid]

Originally posted by takeo
lomplighter you know as wel as i do that burka's are not mentioned in the Qoran, so cut the crap.

Maybe not, but it is mentioned in another Qur'an called Das Kapital. Both are worth the same.

[L@mplighterM]

Oh! But the specifications for the attire called the burka is in your holy book. Your're the one that studied it so you cut the crab.