Arafat's main objective's to have a Palestinian State WITHOUT A PEACE-TREATY

[Flame]

Found this on another message board... the poster nailed it on the head.

Peres's fallen for Arafat's tricks, agn....

Arafat's main objective's to have a Palestinian State WITHOUT A PEACE-TREATY WITH ISRAEL, saving his, & the Palestinians', image in the Arab/Moslem world from the profound shame & humiliation of having to sign & honour an agreement with the Jews.

This "State", which won't be demilitarized, as some naifs dream, will almost immed make war upon Israel, to "redeem its unliberated soil".

Aftr all, the problems not finally a simple dispute abt real-estate, its fully existential: it's over whether there continues to be a Jewish State on this planet or not, not over the size & shape of it.

Therefore, it shd be seen clearly that this "plan"'s futile & destructive & it ought to be rejected amid gales of laughter. The Palestinians regard bloodshed as the 1 legitimate road to their State; they'll accept no substitute, since exclusively thereby - in slaughter - can their precious "honour" be found.

Arafat'll ratchet up the violence now in a bid to necessitate international intervention (which he knows'll overwhelmingly favour his side, as it's always done in the past), with a view to attaining his State unilaterally, without any Israeli conditions, negotiations, or even correspondence....

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Flame
Peres's fallen for Arafat's tricks, agn....

When will poor Peres finally learn?

[Flame]

3. EU AND ISLAMIC LEADERS DIFFER ON CONDEMNING ISRAEL

European and Islamic leaders meeting in Istanbul could not find a
common position by Wednesday on whether to condemn recent Israeli
strikes against Palestinian targets, but European Union officials
unveiled a new plan for immediate recognition of a Palestinian state
without requiring a cease-fire.

On the last day of a two-day meeting in Istanbul with government
officials from 72 European and Islamic countries, Muslim leaders
yesterday called on the PLO-friendly European countries to take a
stronger role in confronting Israel in the Middle East peace process.

The conclave of European nations and members of the Organization of
the Islamic Conference gathered in Turkey to try to bridge the gaps
between the Muslim world and the West in the wake of the September 11
attacks and to address Islamic charges that American support for
Israel and other Western policies provoked the mass terror strikes.

In a final statement to be released later Wednesday, Islamic leaders
insisted on a strong condemnation of Israel, a European Union
diplomat said on condition of anonymity. But European nations and
Turkey opposed condemning a country that is not present to defend
itself.

EU officials, meanwhile, outlined their emerging peace plan that
would call for the immediate recognition of a Palestinian state. The
European plan, unlike the US position, does not call for an initial
Palestinian crackdown on militants and a cease-fire.

"The Europeans think there is no solution in the current policies of
the Israeli government," said French Foreign Minister Hubert Vedrine,
who formulated the Mideast plan.

The EU proposal signals an abandonment of their previous unified
stand with the US behind the Tenet security plan and the Mitchell
report recommendations for securing a sustainable truce and resuming
negotiations.

It comes just as foreign ministers from two key EU members make their
way to the region for diplomatic talks with Israeli and Palestinian
leaders to gauge the positions of both sides before EU foreign
ministers meet in Brussels next Monday.

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw arrived in Israel on Wednesday
for a two-day visit and said this afternoon that the Palestinians
must take the first steps toward a solution to the Middle East
conflict.

Straw will be followed by German Minister of Foreign Affairs Joschka
Fischer, who is scheduled to arrive in Israel on Thursday to urge the
sides to end the violence and resume negotiations.

Both Straw and Fischer have reportedly expressed opposition to the
EU's new French-inspired proposal and stressed the need to coordinate
policies more closely with the US.

After meeting this morning with Israeli Defense Minister Binyamin
Ben-Eliezer in Tel Aviv and then Foreign Minister Shimon Peres in
Jerusalem, Straw said the Palestinian Authority has driven
Palestinian terrorism over the past six months, and thus should be
able to curtail it. The first step should be to make the lives of
individual Israelis much more secure, Straw asserted.

Straw was scheduled to meet separately with Prime Minister Ariel
Sharon today, but the Israeli leader was sidelined with a bad bout of
the flu and the two decided to speak by telephone instead. Straw will
meet with PLO chairman Yasser Arafat in Ramallah this evening and
assured he would tell the Palestinian leader that he must do more to
reduce violence.

In a joint press appearance with Peres, Straw said the wave of
suicide attacks that Israelis have endured over the past 16 months
were "almost impossible to imagine." He said that if Britain - like
Israelis - faced "weekend after weekend" of the sort of terror
attacks that struck Omagh in Northern Ireland several years ago,
British policies there would be dramatically different.

"The first steps that have to be taken are to make the life of the
people of Israel much more secure, and that means clamping down on
the terrorism which comes from the occupied territories," Straw said.

Straw refused to condemn the Israeli raids in the Gaza Strip on
Wednesday in which five Palestinians were killed during IDF
operations aimed at routing out the fledgling Kassam-II missile
industry. When asked about the incursions, he said: "I regret the
death of anybody in this region and elsewhere. It's possible to reel
off similar lists on both sides and very long lists of people who
have been killed in suicide bombings."

Straw also said the EU should not adopt a position at odds with the
US. "If the international community is divided... that will make the
path to peace much more difficult," he said.

The European proposal would "consider a Palestinian state not as the
end of the process but as the beginning of something," said Josep
Pique, the foreign minister of Spain, which currently holds the
rotating EU presidency.

British Embassy spokeswoman Mena Richman said Straw was willing to
listen to new ideas, "but Britain's position is that Mitchell is the
road map."

On Tuesday, Peres unveiled his own plan, negotiated with Palestinian
Parliament Speaker Ahmed Qurei [Abu Ala] that contains elements of
both the Mitchell and EU plans. The Peres-Abu Ala plan calls first
for a cease-fire, to be followed by universal recognition of a
Palestinian state eight weeks later, then one year of negotiations to
determine that state's exact boundaries.

Sharp differences have surfaced however between Peres and Abu Ala
over the latter's demand for a "side letter" from a third party
giving assurances that the basis of the negotiations on borders will
be a return to the pre-1967 Green Line.

The second stage of the proposal, which calls for the establishment
of a Palestinian state on the 42% of Judea/Samaria and Gaza now under
PA control, also calls for the two sides to recognize each other on
the basis of UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338. But Abu Ala
is also demanding a letter of assurances, presumably from the US,
that the border will eventually be drawn along the 1948 armistice
lines.

The Peres-Abu Ala proposal has few takers so far. Sharon has publicly
come out against it because of its firm deadlines.

Members of Peres' own Labor party who might have looked favorably on
the plan are now having second thoughts as well, since he failed to
mention the existence of the "side letter" issue when he recently
distributed an outline on the document to Labor MKs.

According to a source close to Abu Ala, the EU and US were interested
in the plan. But Arafat has not accepted it yet and several PA
officials oppose it.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Flame
EU officials, meanwhile, outlined their emerging peace plan that
would call for the immediate recognition of a Palestinian state. The
European plan, unlike the US position, does not call for an initial
Palestinian crackdown on militants and a cease-fire.

After meeting this morning with Israeli Defense Minister Binyamin
Ben-Eliezer in Tel Aviv and then Foreign Minister Shimon Peres in
Jerusalem, Straw said the Palestinian Authority has driven
Palestinian terrorism over the past six months, and thus should be
able to curtail it. The first step should be to make the lives of
individual Israelis much more secure, Straw asserted.

In a joint press appearance with Peres, Straw said the wave of
suicide attacks that Israelis have endured over the past 16 months
were "almost impossible to imagine." He said that if Britain - like
Israelis - faced "weekend after weekend" of the sort of terror
attacks that struck Omagh in Northern Ireland several years ago,
British policies there would be dramatically different.


Very interesting that French hypocricy appears to be causing a split in European positions.

Look at the nerve of the French demanding to reward the Palestinians for mass murdering innocent Jews. This is really a very clear statement of the French that they consider the Arab terrorism against Israeli citizens to be an positive achievement to be rewarded.

That is who the French really are: Enemies of the Jews and adversaries of the US and the rest of the civilized world.

This is not surprising, of course, because Arab France has been serving their Arab and Islamic brothers for many decades now. But it is always unfortunate to hear the French official anti-semitism go unpunished.

[takeo]

Newsguy, your view is as hypocritical as the US accusing Cuba it is a poor country after they imposed a criminal embargo on it for 40 years without an justified reason and punished other countries who wish to trade with Cuba.
You accuse the palestinians don't want peace and that you are ready to accept peace, at the same time you defend daily israeli terrorist attacks on the PA, on prisons(!!!) (which means of course that the pa can't even arrest anymore terrorists), and at the same time you want the destruction of the al-aqsa mosque and the total eviction of the palestinians from palestina (in "takeo's peace plan"). Your position is really the same as Sharon's: hypocritical. After Israel occupied the territories in 1967 and oppressed the pals for 35 years, nobody will find it strange that they turn to violence, and that an independant palestine will be the only way bringing peace. That is the position of France to bring peace, not the destruction of Israel. Straw is more bound by American interests but even he subsribesthe european plan that the palestinian independance should be a start of any peace-process. And if someone needs to be punished for 35 years of oppression it is Israel, so don't see independance as a reward, it is their right.
And Spain, Belgium, Greece, Netherlands, Scandinavia, Italy, etc. have exactly the same opinion as France, as well as almost all the UN-members. a world-wide anti-semitic plot or all being paid by the Arabs? (actually all the BNP of all Arab countries together is less than a 10th of US bnp)
or could it be that the there is really something wrong with the policy of Israel?

[Flame]

Takeo... I have to assume that you are very young, that you don't know anything about the world before you were born, and that you have never stepped foot in America. You obviously know nothing about Cuba or why the United States have taken the actions it has.

Guess the pals problems aren't arafat's fault... and Castro is an innocent too. Takeo, do yourself a favor and don't make comments about things you know nothing about other than by reading propaganda.

[takeo]

Flame at the moment i am at nueva gerona where my friend lives, in casa jaleidis near the beach, in a place your free government will not allow you to visit.
and about Arafat, i am not going to repeat myself, read above and stop reading one-sided propaganda.
(but by the way i am anxious to know what are the good reasons for the embargo against Cuba, did it terrorise the US or what?)

[NewsGuy]

"Newsguy, your view is as hypocritical as the US accusing Cuba it is a poor country after they imposed a criminal embargo on it for 40 years without an justified reason and punished other countries who wish to trade with Cuba."

Well, in my mind, your desire to blame the Israeli victims of Arab terrorism is hypocritical.

One thing I've notice about your position is that there is never accountability. According to you, there is always someone else to blame for the failure of your positions.

Cuba's troubles wouldn't, by any chance, have to do with the fact that it is a communist country and that communism has turned out to be a colossal failure worldwide. Someone else must be blamed and, of course, the 2 countries in your strange world that are always to blame are Israel and the US.

Just like it is never the fault of the Palestinians that they are mostly an illiterate, poverty-stricken people with a corrupt governement and problems of overpopulation and Islamic extremism. In your world, it is always the fault of Israel and the US.

If Castro has a pimple on his ***, it must be the fault of the US. If Arafat gets syphillis, then it is Israel's fault. And if Arafat gets syphillis from Castro, then it is definitely a CIA-Mossad plot. :o


"You accuse the palestinians don't want peace and that you are ready to accept peace, at the same time you defend daily israeli terrorist attacks on the PA, on prisons(!!!) (which means of course that the pa can't even arrest anymore terrorists), and at the same time you want the destruction of the al-aqsa mosque and the total eviction of the palestinians from palestina"

Yes, that's correct. I support Israeli military action to eliminate Arab terrorism. I don't see that as being contrary to wanting an end to war.


"nobody will find it strange that they turn to violence, and that an independant palestine will be the only way bringing peace."

I find it strange that the Arabs would turn to terrorism when Israel already withdrew its troops out of Palestinian-controlled territory and offered the Palestinians an independent state.


"And if someone needs to be punished for 35 years of oppression it is Israel, so don't see independance as a reward, it is their right."

No. Giving the Palestinians parts of the Jewish homeland while the Palestinians are mass murdering Jews daily, is rewarding Arab violence. Plain and simple. It is not within the Palestinians' right to mass murder Jews as they are doing.


"And Spain, Belgium, Greece, Netherlands, Scandinavia, Italy, etc. have exactly the same opinion as France, as well as almost all the UN-members."

In general, Europe is an anti-Israel, anti-Semitic place, where these countries couldn't care less if all the Jews live or die, or whether Israel is a Jewish or Muslim state, just so long as they keep on getting their Arab oil from their Arab masters.

Do you really think that in the Nethrerlands or Scandinavia they would be terribly upset if in 10 years there would be a vote by the Arab population to turn Israel into another Ayatolla-controlled Iran?

Already Europe coudn't care less if Jews are blown up just sitting in a pizza parlor, or at a disco, or in a city bus, or in a shopping mall. What exactly did they do in Europe when these events happened? Nothing. A few nice words about how incomvenient terrorism can be, then back to business as usual in their safe little pubs and outdoor cafes where they think they are safe from Arab terrorism.

I don't see Europe as having the moral authority to be Israel's judge and jury and to give away Jewish lands to the Arabs. Nonetheless, it is happening unfortunately.

[takeo]

"One thing I've notice about your position is that there is never accountability. According to you, there is always someone else to blame for the failure of your positions. "

Hey, that sentence could be easily used against you. If Israel is searching war with all its neighbours of course that's "the Arabs", if Israel started two wars in 1955 and 1967 of course they are victims of Arab provokation, the un-resolutions are a consequence of world-wide anti-semitism, it has nothing to do with the actions of Israel, the fact that those anti-semites don't let us expulse all the palestinians and blow up the al-aqsa mosque is the guild of those anti-semites, everyone criticising israel is payed by the arabs, in fact everything going wrong with Israel is due to "anti-semitism", every action israel took in its history is always ligitimated and the israeli are always victim, whatever happens.
if palestinians can't leave their town and human rights groups are criticising israel it's all arafat who did it, israel did always the right thing, the fact that sharon didn't keep his election-promise is of course as well the fault of arafat, if palestinians are deprived of any accomodations, investment or employment by israeli occupiers that's all Arafat who did it, in fact if tourists don't come to israel anymore its all the fault of arafat, the 1967-invasion was the work of Arafat, etc.
i
about Cuba: do you deny that the us has imposed a harsh embargo and punishing foreign companies if they wish to do business with Cuba, do you think this has no effect on the economy? and if communism destroys itself why still imposing a trade-embargo? (besides in most communist countries that turned to capitalism the BNP is now only half of 1990).

"Yes, that's correct. I support Israeli military action to eliminate Arab terrorism. I don't see that as being contrary to wanting an end to war. "
well you can't win war against an entire people and certainly can't make peace with them by bombing them.
the fact that israeli are murdered and even more palestinians are murdered is a consequence of israely greedyness to refuse to leave the occupied territories, simple. Not criticising israel would be rewarding it for denying un-resolutions and illigal occupation.

"Do you really think that in the Nethrerlands or Scandinavia they would be terribly upset if in 10 years there would be a vote by the Arab population to turn Israel into another Ayatolla-controlled Iran"

yes they would be upset, and even more, the us and eu would interfere to save israel, what they didn't do for the palestinians. besides, as i told you, this won't happen. Your concern is however that arabs combined with the israeli left-wing will have a political majority and finally make an end to israeli expansionist policy.
yeah ,whatever, all europeans are anti-semitics and paid by the Arabs, whatever!!! they would care a lot more about anti-israeli terrorism if israel would finally accept the un-resolutions and comply to the world's demands to stop occupation and act according to the geneva-convention.

[NewsGuy]

"if Israel started two wars in 1955 and 1967 of course they are victims of Arab provokation, the un-resolutions are a consequence of world-wide anti-semitism, it has nothing to do with the actions of Israel"

First of all, Israel did not start those wars. Just because Edward Sa'id and Arafat bin Ladin say so, doesn't make it a fact.

Secondly, yes, most UN resolutions that deal with Israel are, in fact, anti-Israeli and anti-semitic. It is a fact that Israel has been presecuted at the UN for decades now.

But I don't go around shifting the blame and avoiding accountability, as you do. IMHO, Israel has its own social and economic problems that have nothing to do with the Arabs and their oil-slaves the Europeans. I think every Israeli will agree.

Now, as far as having its citizens mass murdered by Arab terrorists, this is, of course, something that the Arabs have brought on, and cannot be justified by Arab apologists.

I think that the Jewish victims of more than 100 years of Arab terrorism have the right to want the Arabs to leave and go back to their 22 other Arab countries.

"the fact that those anti-semites don't let us expulse all the palestinians and blow up the al-aqsa mosque..."

So far, Israel has done none of this, and yet, it is being attacked daily by Arab murderers encouraged and protected by their European oil-slaves.

[NewsGuy]

"everyone criticising israel is payed by the arabs"
Well, many people don't need to be paid by the Arabs to hate Jews and try to bring about the destruction of Israel. They do a fine job all by themselves.

"if palestinians are deprived of any accomodations, investment or employment by israeli occupiers that's all Arafat who did it, in fact if tourists don't come to israel anymore its all the fault of arafat,"

You are exactly right about all these statements.

And, btw - why do you think that it is Israel's responsibility to invest in the Palestinians or provide them with jobs? The Palestinians need to grow up and support themselves instead of going to Israel (of all places) for handouts. Maybe they need to leave Israel and go to Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states where petro-dollars run like water, and start new lives in those places.

I've noticed a curious thing: that the Palestinians can make bombs and make missiles and make grenades, but they can't manage to go out and make a living.


"about Cuba: do you deny that the us has imposed a harsh embargo and punishing foreign companies if they wish to do business with Cuba, do you think this has no effect on the economy?"

So what? That's just communist self-pity and shifting the blame again. Most countries in the world are doing business with Cuba anyway. Cuba's problem is that it is one of the very last countries who still have not figured out that they need to get rid of their oppressive communist regime and embrace capitalism and democracy. Here's an example of another leader Castro who would rather see his people starve to death and turn to prostitution of about $5 for anyone with hard currency, rather than to resign like a man and admit failure to benefit his people.


"the us and eu would interfere to save israel, what they didn't do for the palestinians."

LOL! The European cowards didn't left a finger for years when Milosevic slaughtered 10's of thousands in their own back yard. They did nothing when the Africans slaughtered 100s of thousands of Tootsies and of course they did nothing when the Germans murdered millions of Jews in WWII. As we all know, the Europeans are pathetic cowards, making all kinds of fancy hypocritical speeches.

To count on Europe to "save" Israel is like asking cows to fly.

[L@mplighterM]

About Cuba Saheed or whatever names your using today there was this little problem regarding a missile base being built there in the 1960's. No problem if they lob a few nukes into the US. But then again you weren’t sitting on your potty in the West Bank or Gaza Strip then. As a matter of fact you weren’t even a gleam in Arafat’s eyes then.



If you’re in Cuba then I’m on the moon I suppose even an Arab knows what the moon is. Or do they? I suppose you're going to ask which half.


I don’t know why you Arabs don’t understand the concept of self-defense, that’s a mystery to me. If you’d have been brought up in a nice Jewish household things most likely would be better for you at least you’d understand some basic concepts. It’s bad when your father lies and brainwashes you so you see the world in a distorted way. Your father is an evil man and good thespian that’s how he managed to blind the eyes of the EU.

[takeo]

"About Cuba Saheed or whatever names your using today there was this little problem regarding a missile base being built there in the 1960's. No problem if they lob a few nukes into the US. But then again you weren’t sitting on your potty in the West Bank or Gaza Strip then. As a matter of fact you weren’t even a gleam in Arafat’s eyes then. "

did you ever hear of Pigs bay? American terrorist actions in Cuba.
Russian missiles made that kind of aggressions something of the past.
but of course you just love terrorists, as long as they're on your side!
and you can go on cyber-terrorising, it isn't my computer!

"I don’t know why you Arabs don’t understand the concept of self-defense, that’s a mystery to me. If you’d have been brought up in a nice Jewish household things most likely would be better for you at least you’d understand some basic concepts. It’s bad when your father lies and brainwashes you so you see the world in a distorted way. Your father is an evil man and good thespian that’s how he managed to blind the eyes of the EU. "

I'm brought up in a nice openminded jewish household (unlike your children, i really pity them) and that's how i learned that occupation and colonisation can never be self-defense, but resisting against an occupying army is.



"And, btw - why do you think that it is Israel's responsibility to invest in the Palestinians or provide them with jobs? "

As long as Israel is occupying them and stopping them to move freely and build an own economy: yes!






"So what? That's just communist self-pity and shifting the blame again. Most countries in the world are doing business with Cuba anyway. Cuba's problem is that it is one of the very last countries who still have not figured out that they need to get rid of their oppressive communist regime and embrace capitalism and democracy. Here's an example of another leader Castro who would rather see his people starve to death and turn to prostitution of about $5 for anyone with hard currency, rather than to resign like a man and admit failure to benefit his people. "

The helms-burton and toricelli laws prevent anyone(US , European, mexican, Japanese) who invest in Cuba to invest in the US or face severe sanctions. Are you denying this affects the Cuban economy? Anyway cubans are still better off than most of their capitalist neighbours who really live in misery (D republic, Jamaica, Haiti)


"

"LOL! The European cowards didn't left a finger for years when Milosevic slaughtered 10's of thousands in their own back yard. They did nothing when the Africans slaughtered 100s of thousands of Tootsies and of course they did nothing when the Germans murdered millions of Jews in WWII. As we all know, the Europeans are pathetic cowards, making all kinds of fancy hypocritical speeches. "

hey, stop that bull****. Milosevic destroyed Islamic terrorists (terrorists who lived in his own country, not in an occupied country, and had civil rights, unlike the pals) Europe reacted by putting an economical embargo(it is about time they do this to Israel as well!) and later to bomb the coutry to hell, in good company of course of old uncle Sam, always around where the fun is. So you see, Europe has so far been very kind to Israel.
Millions of Russian soldiers gave their blood to stop Hitler, together with England, if they didn't do so the Jewish people would exist no more. And many French people risked their life to save Jewish victims, while the zionists in Palestine did exactly nothing.






"First of all, Israel did not start those wars. Just because Edward Sa'id and Arafat bin Ladin say so, doesn't make it a fact. "

not only they say it, as well the uN and even the US. You can't deny the undeniable.

"Secondly, yes, most UN resolutions that deal with Israel are, in fact, anti-Israeli and anti-semitic. It is a fact that Israel has been presecuted at the UN for decades now. "

the un isn't anti-semitic, but israel is treated as any other country, no member of the UN can violate unpunished its rules and occupy other countries. It was to prevent such actions in the future that the un was established, and it reacted the same way against indonesia, Morocco, North-Korea, etc. .


"Now, as far as having its citizens mass murdered by Arab terrorists, this is, of course, something that the Arabs have brought on, and cannot be justified by Arab apologists. "

israel has brought more terrorism upon itself by the 1967 invasion and occupation and the very unfair and unlowful treatment of the palestinians.

"I think that the Jewish victims of more than 100 years of Arab terrorism have the right to want the Arabs to leave and go back to their 22 other Arab countries. "

Many more Palestinians have been victim of Israeli terrorism and occupation, they have the right to demand an end to Israeli occupation. And nobody ever has the right to etnic cleanse a whole people.



"So far, Israel has done none of this, and yet, it is being attacked daily by Arab murderers encouraged and protected by their European oil-slaves. "

No, but if it was upon you, israel would have done this terrible acts, and for sure we wouldn't be talking about Israel in this case, as it would have been destroyed by an islamic coalition.

a message from my friend: HIJOS DE PUTAS Y MARICONES: COME MIERDA!

[cerulean]

Originally posted by takeo


a message from my friend: HIJOS DE PUTAS Y MARICONES: COME MIERDA!

Your friend uses terrible language. Does he have something against people who are gay? NewsGuy is also right about the flourishing prostitution industry in Cuba (which includes children), so it's highly ironic your friend is referring to "children of whores and fags." Nevertheless, it's not clear to me exactly who your friend has in mind.

[L@mplighterM]

He's talking to himself !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NewsGuy]

"The helms-burton and toricelli laws prevent anyone(US , European, mexican, Japanese) who invest in Cuba to invest in the US or face severe sanctions. Are you denying this affects the Cuban economy? Anyway cubans are still better off than most of their capitalist neighbours who really live in misery (D republic, Jamaica, Haiti)"

Those laws are good, but are not being enforced. Like I said, Cuba has the ability to do business with the rest of the world, as is evidenced by their large foreign investment in building luxury hotels to attract hard currency. Of course, these luxury hotels stick out like a sore thumb in a poverty-stricken third-word Communist dump like Cuba.

Still, Castro's communism has caused misery for the Cubans, who are too afraid to force their governement to change. It is always more convenient to blame it all on the US.

Then again, like in all Communist states, anyone who even thinks against the goverment is immediately thrown into a Gulag and made to "disappear" mysteriously. "Power to the people, Comrades!"


"Milosevic destroyed Islamic terrorists (terrorists who lived in his own country, not in an occupied country, and had civil rights"

Wow, Milosevic as the takeo's champion of human rights... Now I've heard it all. :D


"Europe reacted by putting an economical embargo"

ooohh... I'm sure that this kind of brave and decisive EU action would immediately "save" Israel, if its Arab citizens started a civil war to turn Israel into another Islamic-ruled Iran.

[takeo]

How can you blame a country that it is poor if you support laws that are exactly meant to destroy the economy of that same country? and tourism infrastructure has saved Cuba from real poverty, yet few companies are willing to invest in other branches of the economy because they fear us-sanctions against their company, and the us-economy is naturally more important for them than tiny Cuba. If Americans would be free to visit Cuba without punishment for this criminal act and invest in Cuba, than the tourism and industrial income of Cuba would multiply several times. (it would make Cuba less attractive, but that's another matter ;) )

And i guess for you one terrorist is better than the other one, Milosevic is a war-criminal because he suppressed the Islamic KLA by using methods that are not any worse than the methods used by Israel against the palestinians (but again, the palestinian terrorists fight for an end to occupation, while kosovo is a part of Serbia, and in kosovo people could vote and have civil rights, in Palestine they have none of this). He has been charged of etnic cleansing(what israel did too, and is planning to do), bombing cities (idem), and killing terrorists unlawfully, that means not according to the Geneva-conventions (idem). In fact your position is quite simple: everything is allowed by Israel, but other countries need to observe international rules and human rights.

[NewsGuy]

"If Americans would be free to visit Cuba without punishment for this criminal act and invest in Cuba, than the tourism and industrial income of Cuba would multiply several times."

Again, you are always looking to blame the US and then, at the same time, you also continue to look for US charity to save your Stalinist-fascist friends.

Let Castro break open his little peso piggy bank and buy some food for his starving people. Then he needs to open up elections booths, which will also include Cuban-Americans, and let's see the outcome.



"And i guess for you one terrorist is better than the other one, Milosevic is a war-criminal because he suppressed the Islamic KLA by using methods that are not any worse than the methods used by Israel against the palestinians"

In case you haven't been reading the free press in the past decade, you should know that Milosevic is on trial for ordering systematic rapes and mass murder of civilians. This behavior most closely resembles the Arab terrorist regimes of your comrades Qadafi, Assad, the Ayatollahs, the Mulah and Arafat bin Ladin, etc., not Israel.

[takeo]

"Again, you are always looking to blame the US and then, at the same time, you also continue to look for US charity to save your Stalinist-fascist friends. "

Hey, they don't want charity or help, they want an equal chance as any other country in the world to do trade with other countries, without a country trying to destroy its economic relations by repressive laws. They want normal economic relations, nothing more or less. In fact what the us does is in an act of economic terrorism (as egypt blocking the red sea, you said that was terrorism...)
(the us doesn't impose a boycott on any country that doesn't have multi-party elections, does it? in fact it supported many more totalitarian regimes and still does so, just one close example D. Republic dictator who ruled the country in terror for 30 years received tons of $$$, yet his country is still poorer than cuba).




"In case you haven't been reading the free press in the past decade, you should know that Milosevic is on trial for ordering systematic rapes and mass murder of civilians. This behavior most closely resembles the Arab terrorist regimes of your comrades Qadafi, Assad, the Ayatollahs, the Mulah and Arafat bin Ladin, etc., not Israel."

LOL
he is on trial for
a) bombing bosnia and croatia
b) fighting against the terrorists in Kosovo and destroying their houses.
3) mass-murder by para-military groups of bosnian and croat serbs, who were not under the autority of milosevic (compare with the murder by the falangist groups who were under direct controll of Sharon)

so cynical that you consider Milosevic a criminal while your heroes do exactly the same thing and worse.

[NewsGuy]

"Hey, they don't want charity or help, they want an equal chance as any other country in the world to do trade with other countries, without a country trying to destroy its economic relations by repressive laws."

In all honesty, I think that it is time that the US officially eliminates all laws that threaten to penalize other countries from doing business with Castro. In practice, those laws are not being enforced for many years now, so they might as well be eliminated officially also.

But the US itself is under no obligation to trade with Castro, a communist despot who is a self-described enemy of the US.

We can leave it to the hypocritical Europeans and Asians, who yap about "human rights" all the time, to fly at lightning speed to throw their money at all kinds of corrupt dictatorships.



"(as egypt blocking the red sea, you said that was terrorism...)"

I didn't call that terrorism, I called it the direct cause of the War of Attrition.

What I called terrorism was that Egypt trained and sent Palestinian "Mujahadeen" Islamic terrorists into Israel through the Gaza strip to murder Israeli civilians.



"(the us doesn't impose a boycott on any country that doesn't have multi-party elections, does it? in fact it supported many more totalitarian regimes and still does so"

These are huge mistakes, that have always come back to haunt the US time and time again, which is why the US should immediately stop sending weapons to Muslim countries like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. In fact, the biggest mistakes along those lines were US support for the Afghanistan rebels against Russia, which later resulted in the Taliban, and US support for Iraq, which resulted in Saddam Hussein invading Kuwait.

The US is not perfect and I, for one, believe that the US should reduce its military involvement in the international scene, except for the war on terrorism that should be expanded.



"(compare with the murder by the falangist groups who were under direct controll of Sharon) ...so cynical that you consider Milosevic a criminal while your heroes do exactly the same thing and worse."

No, Israel has been extremely careful not to cause casualties against Arab civilians, so much so that many Israelis have died as a result. Sharon was never responsible for the Arab vs. Arab massacre. Certainly not any more than George Bush, as commander-in-chief is deirectly responsible for the accidental death of Afghani civilians, or any other responsible general.

The ones directly responsible for the Lebanon Arab vs. Arab massacres are the Arabs who did it without Sharon's knowledge, and especially Arafat and the Ayatollahs of Iran, who massacred so many Christian Arabs that they caused revenge massacres in return.

[Flame]

I guess Takeo will be thrilled to know that at this moment... for how ever long its been going on... don't know... but there are islamic groups all over Cuba trying to lure the people to accept islam.... and with all the pro palestine rallies that castro has conducted over the years... looks like were in store for even bigger trouble. Takeo is so very young and uninformed that he probably doesn't know that the reason for the embargo was because cuba became the ussr's bitch and basically paid castro to use cuba as a base for communist opperations... looks like cuba will soon be an islamic headquarter.

Takeo... castro didn't have to jump in bed with the ussr... but he did, his decision. And in case you didn't know takeo... there are hundreds of thousands of cubans in the US... who support the sanctions and hate castro and will rejoiice the day he dies... problem is... looks like islam already tilled the ground for more extremism.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Flame
... there are hundreds of thousands of cubans in the US... who support the sanctions and hate castro and will rejoiice the day he dies... problem is... looks like islam already tilled the ground for more extremism.

Right, and the Cuban-Americans just happen to be influential voters in Jeb Bush's state.

I also find it interesting that there is a close association between Castro's Cuba and Arafat, as well as Islamists who are being given a free hand in Cuba. There is more than one "axis of evil" in the world apparently.

That was a very interesting observation, Flame.

[takeo]

"The US is not perfect and I, for one, believe that the US should reduce its military involvement in the international scene, except for the war on terrorism that should be expanded. "

that's true, it should also stop sending weapons to israel (and the neighbouring countries) untill it agrees to comply to the un-resolutions. I think that change in US-policy would bring peace to the middle-east sooner than anything else.





"No, Israel has been extremely careful not to cause casualties against Arab civilians, so much so that many Israelis have died as a result. Sharon was never responsible for the Arab vs. Arab massacre. Certainly not any more than George Bush, as commander-in-chief is deirectly responsible for the accidental death of Afghani civilians, or any other responsible general. "

Sharon was the commander in chief of Beirout and all around the falangist muderers were israeli soldiers, who let the falangists inside the camps with a specific ("unknown"...) purpose... I think the case against Sharon would be a lot more easy to proove than against Milosevic.





"I guess Takeo will be thrilled to know that at this moment... for how ever long its been going on... don't know... but there are islamic groups all over Cuba trying to lure the people to accept islam.... and with all the pro palestine rallies that castro has conducted over the years... looks like were in store for even bigger trouble. Takeo is so very young and uninformed that he probably doesn't know that the reason for the embargo was because cuba became the ussr's bitch and basically paid castro to use cuba as a base for communist opperations... looks like cuba will soon be an islamic headquarter. "

I didn't see one single mosque or even met one single Muslim(I think there is one mosque in Santiago, that was used by Moroccan immigrants who came to Cuba in the 19th century, but they have converted to catholicism long time ago), in fact Cubans couldn't care less about what happens in the Middle East, however they care very much about the embargo.
And i may be young but not uninformed, I know that Castro embraced the USSR only after the US wanted Castro out again, as he was determined to stop the total american controll on the cuban economy that kept Cuba very poor and in the hands of maffia-guys, he sought support where he could find it, but Cuba has never been used to launch any terrorist action against the US. The problem was that the us could not accept that a country so close to its borders didn't took orders from washington.

"Takeo... castro didn't have to jump in bed with the ussr... but he did, his decision. And in case you didn't know takeo... there are hundreds of thousands of cubans in the US... who support the sanctions and hate castro and will rejoiice the day he dies... problem is... looks like islam already tilled the ground for more extremism."

He had no choice because after the nationalisation the US already started the actions against cuba, before Cuba embraced the Soviet-Union, which is by the way the right of a sovereign country to choose its partners. And cuban-americans are not a representation of cubans, they are the former middle class who fled the country. If you go to Cuba you will notice most cubans are black or mixed, while most cuban-americans look hispanic or white. And about the "Islamic influence in Cuba" Castro has promised the US that he would send back every escaped Al-quaida member to guantanamo.
The "axis of evil" speech has been condamned by the whole world as stupidity, even by close allies as Great-Brittain. And Cuba has never ever attacked the US, (while the us is still a great treat for Cuba and supporters terrorists based in Miami who have bombed the tourist infrastructure).
The first one trying to bomb North Korea will be confronted with 100's of chinese nuclear warheads. And i wouldn't be too sure about Iran either. two countries by the way that were normalising their relations with the us untill recently.

[Flame]

As usual Takeo... you don't have a clue. You are right about one thing... no mosques... but that is irrelevant. Islam is sweeping Cuba and they hold meetings and prayers in make-shift places. This has been going on for years thanks to farrakan... and castro is very much aligned with some arab nations.... if they do't care about the mid-east why would castro lead anti-israel rallies as often as he does.

You are very ignorant.

And wrong again... cuba was a very well to do island before the revolution. Cuba was ver;y much the paris of the 20's until the revolution.... The casinos were world class,and the cuban music scene was amazing.... and most of them took the first boat to America.

In case you aren't aware of what happened in the 30's and 40's... a rash of dictators rose up globally... you can thank perone for castros take over. And when russia ran to castro... it wsa not for any of the reasons you suggest. Did you know that castro is (was?) a santero? (A top guy of santeria.) Probably not, but if only that was his worst flaw.

Takeo... you appear to be someone on a strict diet of propaganda. I guess you think the USSR was some benevolent entity? You are a reactionary without the slightest notion of history.

Did you know that the 9 main scientests in Germany got the hell out of there... 7 came to America and 2 to the USSR???? That is what started the arms race.... did you know that one of the scientests was Einstein?

[takeo]

didn't speak to a single islamic Cuban and the people that come to study in Cuba are blacks from African countries, no Arabs. Castro condamns Israel's policy as the whole world does, yet many Cubans don't care about Israel and the palestinians.
Before 1959 Cuba was very much the Chicago of the caraibian, full of maffiosi who had very close connections to the dictator in place, some people were rich, yet most people had to live in miserable conditions in the sugarcane-plantations. That's why they supported castro.
Castro a santera??? as far as i know, only black or mixed people believe in this, and it is a religion that was not encouraged by the regime.

"Takeo... you appear to be someone on a strict diet of propaganda. I guess you think the USSR was some benevolent entity? You are a reactionary without the slightest notion of history. "

No, i don't, i know the Soviet-Union did some worse things too, the difference is that i visited the Soviet-Union, Cuba and Gaza, and spoke with many people, while you rely completely on propaganda. Their support of Cuba of course was strategic, as the US supported countries near the soviet-union. And the arms-race etc. are just other features of the cold war. Yet the cold war is over and the US is still running the arms-race, alone.

[Flame]

Takeo... I lived though it... I remember well. You young kids are being fed a lot of re-vision.