Israel too is on a suicide mission.

[Teacake]

Supreme Court Replaces Law With Political Acrobatics
Shabtai Alboher
10 January 2003
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The Supreme Court´s controversial decision to allow Azmi Bishara, Ahmed Tibi, and Baruch Marzel to run for the Knesset, while disqualifying Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz and Moshe Feiglin from running on the Likud list, has become the focus of heated debate across the political spectrum.

In a surprising and unprecedented move, the Supreme Court has ruled that a candidate or a political party running on a platform denying Israel´s right to exist as a Jewish State is a legitimate choice for the Israeli electorate. The candidate, Azmi Bishara, and his party, Balad, are in favor of replacing the State of Israel with a state "of all of its residents" that has no specific identification with the Jewish People. Bishara has even stated publicly that, in his opinion, there is no such thing as a "Jewish People".

The court´s decision in the Bishara case seems to fly in the face of Israeli law, which states specifically that a party or candidate that denies the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state must be disqualified from running for the Knesset. Israel´s Attorney General, Elyakim Rubinstein, relying on that law, successfully convinced the Elections Commission to disqualify Bishara and Balad from running for the Knesset.

The Supreme Court´s interpretation of the law is, at best, incomprehensible from a legal standpoint. Not only do Bishara and his party platform oppose the existence of a Jewish State, they openly identify with terrorism and support terrorist groups who have taken up arms against the State of Israel and its Jewish residents. Aside from his support for the terrorist groups fighting the Oslo War, which has already claimed the lives of over 700 Jews, Bishara has stated many times that he backs the Hizbullah, a group many U.S. officials consider to be more even dangerous than al-Qaeda.

The court´s seven to four decision to allow Bishara to run is also hard to reconcile with the fact that Bishara himself has made a mockery of the "rule of law". Overtly defying the law, Bishara flew to Syria, an enemy State, in order to attend a ceremony commemorating the death of former Syrian president, Hafez Assad. The State´s Attorney has indicted Bishara for this offence, and for provocative statements he made while in Syria in support of the Hizbullah.

Even more difficult to reconcile is how the court, on the one hand, found Bishara and his acts to be legitimate political expressions, but on the other hand, determined that Moshe Feiglin´s conviction in connection with his civil disobedience against the Oslo accords was an act stained with "moral turpitude", disqualifying his candidacy.

Was the court actually trying to engage in a political balancing act, using the law a mere backdrop for its decision? Keeping Bishara, Tibi, and Marzel in, while kicking out Mofaz and Feiglin may have a certain acrobatic elegance. But it should come as no surprise that political parties on the right are now calling for the court itself to be disqualified and replaced by a legitimate constitutional court, whose judges are selected democratically, with Knesset supervision and approval.

Such a constitutional court will likely perform the required acrobatics in a more logical, though potentially less elegant way, without causing the audience to lose its breath, and without compromising its moral soul.
-------------------------------------------------------

Can I make you a pita sandwich before you kill me? And, perhaps a nice cup of tea with that?

[Rob]

I'm sure that ruling will make takeo very happy. He must be celebrating the end of Israel tonight.

[takeo]

Indeed it makes me happy that there are still people who want to preserve the democratic nature of Israel. If it were upon you guys than Israel would be less democratic than Saoudi Arabia, with only "good" Jews (decided by a special commission of die-hard rightwingers) as candidates. Arabs would already have been etnic cleansed/massacred.
the current policy of israel is suicide-mission, as the current war is undermining israel's economy and geo-political position in the region, and relations with neighbours deteriorating.

[Rob]

Originally posted by takeo
Indeed it makes me happy that there are still people who want to preserve the democratic nature of Israel. If it were upon you guys than Israel would be less democratic than Saoudi Arabia, with only "good" Jews (decided by a special commission of die-hard rightwingers) as candidates. Arabs would already have been etnic cleansed/massacred.
the current policy of israel is suicide-mission, as the current war is undermining israel's economy and geo-political position in the region, and relations with neighbours deteriorating.

Sure Mohammed. Now back to your Israel hating party.

[humus_sapiens]

How to disqualify the idiotic self-defeating Supreme Court? We need a Constitution already. Israel is Jewish Natl Homeland.
Too much blood was spilled for that already.
Whoever cannot live in peace with that - should be humanely deported. There are 22 Arab states, Eurostan, etc.

[takeo]

yeah, the Israeli supreme court are anti-semitic nazi's, aren't they? And payed by the Arabs... :rolleyes:

[Mediocrates]

The key difference is that takeo comes at it from the perspective of an American-like system where no matter how many minority candidates there are, they're never really a threat because either candidate A or candidate B will win. Israel is more of a pure parliamentary system with no voting wards or districts so elections are on strict fractional proportional basis. That is precisely the issue that all the takeos of the world have as a criticism against Israel.

You see if you think that Shas needs to be barred or limited just because you think they are 'extremist' then it also has to work against the terrorists you support as well.

I tend to agree that Israel needs at least voting districts that aggregate votes per ward. This would make fringe elements less of an issue. All extreme candidates would be free to run etc. but they would be much less likely to win a seat. That way everyone gets their say per free speech democratic process and some semblence of political order is maintained.

[takeo]

In fact in France we have a system similar to the one in Israel, it doesn't give a lot of problems. in fact it is safer and more democratic than an anglo-american system of "the winner takes all", it's more representative, as everyone gets a chance to be elected.
So what if there're Arab extremists in the israeli parliament, there are jewish extremists as well represented. that's democracy you know, people have a free choice of electing a candidate of their own. if you don't like this, than you can also organise Soviet- or cuban-style elections, where any "inappropriate" or "state-dangerous"-candidates are not permitted to run.

[MGB8]

While I am, in general, against the idea of not lettting people run, to say that a platform denying Israel's right to exist is acceptable is beyond ridiculous. Wow. If that's in their platform, OF COURSE they shouldn't be allowed to run...that's TREASON.


Originally posted by Teacake
Supreme Court Replaces Law With Political Acrobatics
Shabtai Alboher
10 January 2003
Email this story
Print this story

The Supreme Court´s controversial decision to allow Azmi Bishara, Ahmed Tibi, and Baruch Marzel to run for the Knesset, while disqualifying Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz and Moshe Feiglin from running on the Likud list, has become the focus of heated debate across the political spectrum.

In a surprising and unprecedented move, the Supreme Court has ruled that a candidate or a political party running on a platform denying Israel´s right to exist as a Jewish State is a legitimate choice for the Israeli electorate. The candidate, Azmi Bishara, and his party, Balad, are in favor of replacing the State of Israel with a state "of all of its residents" that has no specific identification with the Jewish People. Bishara has even stated publicly that, in his opinion, there is no such thing as a "Jewish People".

The court´s decision in the Bishara case seems to fly in the face of Israeli law, which states specifically that a party or candidate that denies the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state must be disqualified from running for the Knesset. Israel´s Attorney General, Elyakim Rubinstein, relying on that law, successfully convinced the Elections Commission to disqualify Bishara and Balad from running for the Knesset.

The Supreme Court´s interpretation of the law is, at best, incomprehensible from a legal standpoint. Not only do Bishara and his party platform oppose the existence of a Jewish State, they openly identify with terrorism and support terrorist groups who have taken up arms against the State of Israel and its Jewish residents. Aside from his support for the terrorist groups fighting the Oslo War, which has already claimed the lives of over 700 Jews, Bishara has stated many times that he backs the Hizbullah, a group many U.S. officials consider to be more even dangerous than al-Qaeda.

The court´s seven to four decision to allow Bishara to run is also hard to reconcile with the fact that Bishara himself has made a mockery of the "rule of law". Overtly defying the law, Bishara flew to Syria, an enemy State, in order to attend a ceremony commemorating the death of former Syrian president, Hafez Assad. The State´s Attorney has indicted Bishara for this offence, and for provocative statements he made while in Syria in support of the Hizbullah.

Even more difficult to reconcile is how the court, on the one hand, found Bishara and his acts to be legitimate political expressions, but on the other hand, determined that Moshe Feiglin´s conviction in connection with his civil disobedience against the Oslo accords was an act stained with "moral turpitude", disqualifying his candidacy.

Was the court actually trying to engage in a political balancing act, using the law a mere backdrop for its decision? Keeping Bishara, Tibi, and Marzel in, while kicking out Mofaz and Feiglin may have a certain acrobatic elegance. But it should come as no surprise that political parties on the right are now calling for the court itself to be disqualified and replaced by a legitimate constitutional court, whose judges are selected democratically, with Knesset supervision and approval.

Such a constitutional court will likely perform the required acrobatics in a more logical, though potentially less elegant way, without causing the audience to lose its breath, and without compromising its moral soul.
-------------------------------------------------------

Can I make you a pita sandwich before you kill me? And, perhaps a nice cup of tea with that?

[Micah]

I wonder why takeo talks of how great democracy is yet is a communist? I wonder why he thinks Israel should have to give rights to anybody when if he was a leader of a country it would be a communist one?

[Lowell]

We can only hope that these anti-Israel Arabs get so few votes that they fade into obscurity. I don't think they should be able to run for office within Israel but at the same time this ruling by the Israel Supreme Court shows that Israel is far more democratic than any Arab nation. Are Jews able to run for political office in any Arab nation even if they do not deny the right of Arabs to exist? Of course not, Jews aren't permitted to even live in Arab nations!

[Rob]

Originally posted by takeo
yeah, the Israeli supreme court are anti-semitic nazi's, aren't they? And payed by the Arabs... :rolleyes:

You're the one always calling Israelis fascists. How stupid are you?

[takeo]

didn't you call me anti-semitic???

actually if i would run a country it would be a multi-party democracy, but France would quit NATO immidiately and establish even closer ties with China, Russia and Arab countries. everyone would be able to run in the elections, including traitors and fascists, but of course it doesn't mean there aren't other means to combat them, such as manipulating the media, the favorite tool of the "free world"-capitalism.

[Micah]

Hey that sounds good.

That means I can assassinate you as soon as you become leader, right?

[takeo]

So you wanna become terrorist?
I hope a suicide-bomber...

[Communication]

Where I live, everyone was shouting that Trent Lott should be foreced to resign for a comment he made that was offensive to black people. Those same people are now accusing Israel of not being a democracy because Israel debated the idea of not allowing a guy to run on a platform where he opposes the existence of the state he is suppose to be representing and sympathizes with suicide bombers who murder his countrymen. All ths during a time of war. The hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me. What's worse is that Israel caved in under the pressure and is allowing the guy to run. There is such a thing as being too good.



__________________________________
"I not anti-French, I just don't think that France should exist." - Pepe Lapue

[Lowell]

Originally posted by takeo
didn't you call me anti-semitic???

actually if i would run a country it would be a multi-party democracy, but France would quit NATO immidiately and establish even closer ties with China, Russia and Arab countries. everyone would be able to run in the elections, including traitors and fascists, but of course it doesn't mean there aren't other means to combat them, such as manipulating the media, the favorite tool of the "free world"-capitalism.

In other words, takeo, you'd establish a Vichy-style government in France that would co-operate closely with Fascists, despotic Arab nations, etc. Tell me, would Jews be "permitted" to live in this more enlightened France you envision?

[takeo]

In other words, takeo, you'd establish a Vichy-style government in France that would co-operate closely with Fascists, despotic Arab nations, etc. Tell me, would Jews be "permitted" to live in this more enlightened France you envision?

No, the Vichy-reguime wasn't a democracy at all, and arabs wouldn't be treated any worse or better than jews or French, all equal for the law. Just look at how people have twisted interpretations of my words, whatever i say!!!

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by takeo
didn't you call me anti-semitic???

actually if i would run a country it would be a multi-party democracy, but France would quit NATO immidiately and establish even closer ties with China, Russia and Arab countries. everyone would be able to run in the elections, including traitors and fascists, but of course it doesn't mean there aren't other means to combat them, such as manipulating the media, the favorite tool of the "free world"-capitalism.


Sounds like childish anarchy or some kind of cartoon country managed by a benevolent uber-brain.

[takeo]

in that case it wouldn't be very different from the us.

[Rob]

Originally posted by takeo
didn't you call me anti-semitic???

actually if i would run a country it would be a multi-party democracy, but France would quit NATO immidiately and establish even closer ties with China, Russia and Arab countries. everyone would be able to run in the elections, including traitors and fascists, but of course it doesn't mean there aren't other means to combat them, such as manipulating the media, the favorite tool of the "free world"-capitalism.

You are anti-semitic. You are the one who asked the stupid question. Now the Israeli S.C. hasn't spent a life time trying to destroy Israel or the Jewish notion of Israel like you have.

The S.C. made one decision. You've made a lifetime of decisions. The S. C. is not deciding to turn Israel into Palestine as you would like. You are an anti-semite.

[Micah]

Originally posted by takeo
So you wanna become terrorist?
I hope a suicide-bomber...

Terrorist? That's such a strong word. More like...martyr

[frizzer1]

Originally posted by Communication
Where I live, everyone was shouting that Trent Lott should be foreced to resign for a comment he made that was offensive to black people. Those same people are now accusing Israel of not being a democracy because Israel debated the idea of not allowing a guy to run on a platform where he opposes the existence of the state he is suppose to be representing and sympathizes with suicide bombers who murder his countrymen. All ths during a time of war. The hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me. What's worse is that Israel caved in under the pressure and is allowing the guy to run. There is such a thing as being too good.



__________________________________
"I not anti-French, I just don't think that France should exist." - P
epe Lapue

I was never a supporter of Kahane or the kach party,but if Israel is going to allow those who would destroy the state , to run in the elections, how can they justify banning the kach party?

[Teacake]

Originally posted by frizzer1
I was never a supporter of Kahane or the kach party,but if Israel is going to allow those who would destroy the state , to run in the elections, how can they justify banning the kach party?

Excellent question!

[RedLine]

Originally posted by takeo
in that case it wouldn't be very different from the us.

On the contrary Takeo if we accept all groups as citizens then those with the extremist views will force their way into power.
Liberalism to the extreme will never work, it leads to people taking advantage (YOU SHOULD KNOW, LIKE WITH LE PEN)

This is why anti-semiticism amongst the french has grown, you are racist takeo without realising it by supporting those who directly hate Jews who only appear to oppose Israel.

One day you French will realise that Israel is no push-over and that they could reign supreme any time, so cut the racist rantings you European beaurocratic pig.

[takeo]

On the contrary Takeo if we accept all groups as citizens then those with the extremist views will force their way into power.
Liberalism to the extreme will never work, it leads to people taking advantage (YOU SHOULD KNOW, LIKE WITH LE PEN)

This is why anti-semiticism amongst the french has grown, you are racist takeo without realising it by supporting those who directly hate Jews who only appear to oppose Israel.

One day you French will realise that Israel is no push-over and that they could reign supreme any time, so cut the racist rantings you European beaurocratic pig.

A real democracy should accept all groups to have an equal chance in elections, whatever their opinion, only the voter can choose. Noone can take advantage of democracy, if a party wins a number of seats that's because the voter wants so. Anything else isn't democracy.

What is the connection with anti-semitsm? In fact for some of you anything that doesn't correspond to your views is anti-semitism. Simple and easy and always usefull.
I oppose Israel, it isn't because some anti-semites oppose Israel that everyone opposing Israel is anti-semite. Not anyone opposing the taliban is an anti-Muslim racist. If israel wouldn't be conducting a racist and fascist policy towards the palestinians, I wouldn't oppose israel. It is intellectually unfair to accuse anyone criticising Israel of anti-semitism. For me it doesn't matter if Israel is a jewish, an arab or a latin country, i would oppose the policy of Israel all the same.
And stop your insults please, that's not a civilised manner of discussing political differences. You're a total moron if you can't make the difference between people opposing the oppression of palestinians(and whatever you call it, it's oppression of the worst kind, going on for decades, not some recent measures of self-defense...) and neo-nazi fascists who will always oppose Israel because it's Jewish.

[Lowell]

You're a total moron if you can't make the difference between people opposing the oppression of palestinians(and whatever you call it, it's oppression of the worst kind, going on for decades, not some recent measures of self-defense...)

Sorry, takeo, but anyone who believes that those murderous, barbaric "Palestinians" are being 'oppressed' by Israel is a complete, drooling moron. There is no other way to phrase it: You're a moron, and it's not namecalling but simply the truth.

[andak01]

Originally posted by Lowell
Sorry, takeo, but anyone who believes that those murderous, barbaric "Palestinians" are being 'oppressed' by Israel is a complete, drooling moron. There is no other way to phrase it: You're a moron, and it's not namecalling but simply the truth.

Yeah. We're coming over tomorrow morning around 2AM to kick you out of your home so we can bulldoze it. Then we are going to send you a bill for the demolition. But if we catch you outside at night or during the day or whenever we call curfew, we'll shoot you. And maybe, if we haven't already consigned you to a tent, we will chase a criminal into your neighborhood and drop a two ton bomb on the whole block. That's not oppressive at all. Anyone who thinks so must be a drooling moron. Of course, since their university is being closed, there will be even more drooling morons in the future. And keeping people in their home on cerfew instead of allowing them to go to work or school is likely to breed even more.

[Lowell]

Originally posted by andak01
Yeah. We're coming over tomorrow morning around 2AM to kick you out of your home so we can bulldoze it. Then we are going to send you a bill for the demolition. But if we catch you outside at night or during the day or whenever we call curfew, we'll shoot you. And maybe, if we haven't already consigned you to a tent, we will chase a criminal into your neighborhood and drop a two ton bomb on the whole block. That's not oppressive at all. Anyone who thinks so must be a drooling moron. Of course, since their university is being closed, there will be even more drooling morons in the future. And keeping people in their home on cerfew instead of allowing them to go to work or school is likely to breed even more.

Your words contradict your intent: Israel gives warning before she bulldozes a terrorist hovel, so civilized. Contrast this to Russia which blows up sans warning entire city blocks in reprisal against the Chechnan terrorists. The curfew in "Palestinian"-occupied areas of Israel is to attempt to prevent the terrorist murders of Israeli civilians, such as the five year old Jewish girl shot in the head by your beloved, 'oppressed' "Palestinians", not to forget the dozens of suicide murders using bombs, filled with poison dipped nails, carried by those "Palestinian" s. And since virtually every "Palestinian" supports or condones the fascist regime of Arafat and his terrorist cabals, and dances for joy when Israelis or Americans are murdered, I really cannot feel much empathy for those "Palestinians" who Israel kills in defense of Israeli civilians. Poor dears. As for the 'Universities' Israel recently and belatedly closed- good riddance, these were nothing but centers for indoctrinating the 'oppressed' Arabs into hatred and terrorism. If those are your idea of schools I fear you'll be unable to stem the drool. Buy an absorbent bib.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by andak01
And keeping people in their home on cerfew instead of allowing them to go to work or school is likely to breed even more.

No, the necessity is to keep the blood-thirsty Palestinian mass murderers and their supporters at home, rather than to be allowed to massacre innocent Israelis.

[andak01]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
No, the necessity is to keep the blood-thirsty Palestinian mass murderers and their supporters at home, rather than to be allowed to massacre innocent Israelis.

And punishing an entire people for the crimes of a few is one of the ways that Israel is breaking the Geneva convention.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by andak01
And punishing an entire people for the crimes of a few is one of the ways that Israel is breaking the Geneva convention.

No, not at all.

Israel is expressly authorized to defend its citizens under the UN charter, section VII, which is the same section used most recently by the U.S. to invade Afghanistan after the 9/11 terrorist attack.

But regardless of anything, Israel's enemies, including most Arab states and their Euorpean trade slaves will never be satisfied with Israel defending itself. After all, it was never a matter of law -- it was always a matter of pretending that the Arabs have some international right to destroy Israel. The Geneva convention is just the latest smoke screen, really.

[Lowell]

Originally posted by andak01
And punishing an entire people for the crimes of a few is one of the ways that Israel is breaking the Geneva convention.

That is such drool. Since when has the Arab world, of which the "Palestinians" are intrinsically a part, ever given a fig for the Geneva Conventions? Arab nations routinely murder, torture and mutilate their own people; cutting off hands, beheading ceremonially in public, stoning women, etc. and in wars against each other they always seem to exhibit the barbaric Convention-disregarding brutality evinced by Attila the Hun. Israel, by contrast, obeys the Geneva Convention letter and spirit. In Jenin, for example, Israel behaved with remarkably civilized restraint putting soldiers in great danger rather than maximizing Arab civilian deaths, as she could have. Exactly why is Israel, with her land area less than one-tenth of 1% of the Middle East, and with a population of some six million, being punished, murdered and terrorized by more than a half billion Arabs who live in the other 99.99%- and even occupy Israeli land? It's clearly against the Geneva Convention to wage perpetual war against Israel, against a whole people, even though the aggressor Arabs lack any rational justification for their enmity.

[andak01]

Originally posted by Lowell
In Jenin, for example, Israel behaved with remarkably civilized restraint putting soldiers in great danger rather than maximizing Arab civilian deaths, as she could have.[/i]

http://www.hrw.org/photos/2002/jenin/

http://www.hrw.org/photos/2002/jenin/pages/11.htm

http://www.hrw.org/photos/2002/jenin/pages/8.htm

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/02/04/Israel/Jenin1.html

http://www.sabellaphoto.com/war.htm

http://www.sabellaphoto.com/dig.htm

http://www.un.org/unrwa/emergency/photogallery02/jenin/jenin.html

[Micah]

Let me ask, how many do you believe were killed in Jenin, andak01?

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ll60

[andak01]

Originally posted by Micah
Let me ask, how many do you believe were killed in Jenin, andak01?

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ll60

Well, let's go by your own photo and what I have read that Israel is saying. 95 homes. Well, the photo shows that the buildings were typically 3 story appartment buildings. It should be assumed that a refugee camp is considerably more crowded than a luxury complex. The picture makes it look as if they might be referring to 95 units instead of 95 buildings. If there were 10 people per unit and assuming 60% escaped (escape wasn't easy because of heavy fire), thats 380 people. That would accord pretty well with the footage I saw of the bodies. Considering they were going in to punish 20 or 30 terrorists, that ranks as a massacre. Here in America, when a murderer runs into an appartment complex, they don't generally drop bombs and destroy the neighborhood. I guess that would work if we didn't care about civilian casualties. Saying that there are no innocent Palestinians is the same argument that the suicide bombers use against Israel. I don't buy it coming from either side.

[Micah]

http://www.megi.co.uk/articles/50%20current/010%20040%20current%20Jenin%203%2005-02.htm

Instead of making up numbers from estimation, how about next time you actually look it up on google? Not too hard.

Oh, and something else.

http://www.adl.org/Israel/jenin/default.asp

[Lowell]

Gutta cavat lapidem!* That slaver will corrode the very foundation. Three story apartment buildings? Correction: it should be assumed that a "refugee camp" is considerably less well constructed than an established city, and of considerably less duration. A true refugee camp is comprised of tents situated transiently in space and time. Manifestly, these perfidious "Palestinians" have situated themselves for a lengthy occupation upon Israeli land- complete with bomb making factories in the buildings the 'benign' UN has generously provided! I think Israel needs to reduce Jenin and like 'refugee camps' to rubble, and put those Philistines in surplus IDF tents for a definite but temporary time, as befits 'refugees'. Tents are no hardship in that clime and canvas does not protect terrorists from the IDF as well as concrete. At any rate, estimates of Arab civilian deaths in Jenin are greatly over-wrought, even hysterical.
*Dripping (drool) hollows out rock- Ovid

[takeo]

in any case, there is sufficient proof of israel violating the geneva-conventions... you even admitted it yourself. just a simple thing as collective punishment is violating the geneva-conventions. Of course Israel is violating in much more brutal ways as well, as indicated by andak.


And since virtually every "Palestinian" supports or condones the fascist regime of Arafat and his terrorist cabals, and dances for joy when Israelis or Americans are murdered, I really cannot feel much empathy for those "Palestinians" who Israel kills in defense of Israeli civilians.

so you agree to the killing of palestinian civilians in reprisal of the killing of israeli civilians, it means you aren't any better than hamas or Jihad.

of course some Arab states and Russia violate Geneva-conventions as well, no surprise, is it? according to AI the Russian human rights violations in chechnia are MUCH worse than what happened in Kosovo (the official reason why the US started a war against yougoslavia...)
Israel is in good company...

Israel is allowed to self-defense, BUT within the limits of international law. this of course is impossible as even the israeli presence in the palestinian territories is illegal.

what about palestinians having the right to self-defense???
i agree not by killing innocents, but attacking the idf-occupation troops is legitimate by international law.

[Mediocrates]

quaint really - all terrorists, I mean dissidents, are civilians therefore they can kill but cannot be killed.

[andak01]

Originally posted by Micah
http://www.megi.co.uk/articles/50%20current/010%20040%20current%20Jenin%203%2005-02.htm

Instead of making up numbers from estimation, how about next time you actually look it up on google? Not too hard.

Oh, and something else.

http://www.adl.org/Israel/jenin/default.asp

Because I saw videos of over 100 casualties and I have seen separate photos of the bodies that took into account more than Israel's claimed 7 casualties. On the other hand, I would also expect the other side to exaggerate. 500-600 seems a little high if we are to believe the satellite photos. Judging from the photos of the rubble and from the continuous stretch of other buildings of approximately the same size, I would say that most of these were three story appartment buildings of whatever grade. If they were in bad repair, they would have been more likely to fall down, but that would have increased rather than decreasing the casualties.

[andak01]

Originally posted by Lowell
Tents are no hardship in that clime and canvas does not protect terrorists from the IDF as well as concrete.

Incredible! Have you lived in a tent lately? Would you trade your home for one? Do you believe that putting refugees in tents is more or less likely to make them violent?

Next you are going to say that Palestinians don't feel pain or hunger or thirst. Remember, not all of these people are terrorists. If you act cruelly towards all of them and treat them all as targets, they will most assuredly continue to do the same with you. In fact, that is the BEST treatment you can expect.

[danholo]

What the hell are you talking about?! The "funeral" where the body fell off twice and got back up again?

Israel claimed that about 50-150 people had died. The death toll, claimed by human rights groups, was 56 on the Palestinian side. Also 13 Israeli soldiers were ambushed and killed.

What kind of propaganda videos/photos did you watch/see? I mean please... "I saw pictures of 100 bodies" won't get you an ounce of credibility on any forum.

[Lowell]

Originally posted by takeo
so you agree to the killing of palestinian civilians in reprisal of the killing of israeli civilians, it means you aren't any better than hamas or Jihad.

what about palestinians having the right to self-defense???
i agree not by killing innocents, but attacking the idf-occupation troops is legitimate by international law.

The dichotomy here, takeo, which creates a veritable cognitive dissonance is that the "Palestinians" are more accurately likened to rabid, drooling beasts mauling children than to an incipient nation-state fighting for freedom from the oppressive Israelis. In this animalistic context, then, Israel and the IDF are courageously protecting the children from rending fangs, and you, andak01 and others claim with a straight face that the beasts have a right to self-defense. Very well, let the beasts dress in military uniforms rather than civilian clothing, and let them confront the IDF in open battle rather than sneaking about in search of civilians to murder and maul, and when the "Palestinian" beasts get their a**es royally thumped by the IDF will we then hear the last of your mewling plaints?

[Lowell]

Originally posted by andak01
Incredible! Have you lived in a tent lately? Would you trade your home for one? Do you believe that putting refugees in tents is more or less likely to make them violent?

Next you are going to say that Palestinians don't feel pain or hunger or thirst. Remember, not all of these people are terrorists. If you act cruelly towards all of them and treat them all as targets, they will most assuredly continue to do the same with you. In fact, that is the BEST treatment you can expect.

I would, indeed, live in a tent if necessary- that is, were I a refugee. Either the "Palestinians" are true refugees, in which case they will certainly be grateful for tents in preference to the bare ground or they are an occupation within Israel who live in apartment buildings from which they venture to murder Israeli civilians. Since they are the latter I believe that a taste of tent dwelling will lessen their violence. Certainly, the Philistines feel hunger and thirst, thank G-d, since without these human needs and associated discomforts there would be no hope of getting reason into their dull, hatred-poisoned minds.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by andak01
Incredible! Have you lived in a tent lately? Would you trade your home for one? Do you believe that putting refugees in tents is more or less likely to make them violent?

No of course tents are bad. I don't know what it leads to. I'm hearing Langston Hughes "A Dream Deferred" play over and over in my head. But here's the crux of the problem. Why after nearly 40 years, that's nearly 14,000 days and billions of dollars poured in and thousands of people pulling for them.....nothing? That unbroken string of failures is either divinely ordained, or, it's engineered by cynical men who would fight the Israelis to the last innocent photo op.

[takeo]

ok, lowell, so you compare all palestinians(which means including civilians who did never carry any weapons) with beasts? That makes your opinion a lot clearer indeed, in a frightening way.

[takeo]

problem is that those people do not want to accept their new situation and integrate in their new environment, they want to return.

[Lowell]

Originally posted by takeo
ok, lowell, so you compare all palestinians(which means including civilians who did never carry any weapons) with beasts? That makes your opinion a lot clearer indeed, in a frightening way.

Even the "Palestinian" civilians who have never carried weapons and who have never attacked Israeli civilians nonetheless have been schooled and indoctrinated into a hatred of Israel and America, and the majority of these "Palestinian" noncombatants actively support and aid the terrorist 'martyrs' who do attack and murder Israelis. It is a fine line between the Philistine 'civilians' who murder Israelis and those who "merely" assist in the murders, and as far as I'm concerned there is no difference: all are equally culpable, and equally shameless in their guilt. Ever notice how closely the kafiyeh Arafat wears resembles the black and white markings of a skunk? Just so: he is a skunk, smelly and diseased in his mind and his Philistine followers share his ignominy, and fate. If they are unhappy in their occupation of Israel's land the remedy is simple: let them return to their Arab homelands of Jordan, Egypt, etc. rather than continuing their mindless, futile violence against the rightful possessers of Israel.

[MGB8]

All the Arab nations, and also the Palestinian Arabs, should listen to the Rolling Stones.

"You can't always get what you want. No, you can't always get what you wa-ant. You can't always get what you waant. But if you try sometime, you might find, you can get what you need...."

The Jews NEED Israel. Israel NEEDS all of the WB in my opinion, but some say only parts, to adequately insure its survival, thus meeting the Jewish people's NEED.

The Arabs don't NEED a Palestine. They have 99% of the Middle East already...the majority of the worlds oil too, but still they cry like spoiled children.

They want war....give it to them.

[takeo]

Even the "Palestinian" civilians who have never carried weapons and who have never attacked Israeli civilians nonetheless have been schooled and indoctrinated into a hatred of Israel and America, and the majority of these "Palestinian" noncombatants actively support and aid the terrorist 'martyrs' who do attack and murder Israelis. It is a fine line between the Philistine 'civilians' who murder Israelis and those who "merely" assist in the murders, and as far as I'm concerned there is no difference: all are equally culpable, and equally shameless in their guilt. Ever notice how closely the kafiyeh Arafat wears resembles the black and white markings of a skunk? Just so: he is a skunk, smelly and diseased in his mind and his Philistine followers share his ignominy, and fate. If they are unhappy in their occupation of Israel's land the remedy is simple: let them return to their Arab homelands of Jordan, Egypt, etc. rather than continuing their mindless, futile violence against the rightful possessers of Israel.

Difficult to stay polite in dealing with people like you, but I'll try anyway.
All palestinians are equally culpable and guilty because they "support violence"? And therefor they are beasts? In that case you have exactly the same logic as Hamas, who attack israeli civilians because, according to them, the majority of Israeli voted for Sharon and support the military occupation of the occupied territories (the area conquered in 1967 is NOT a part of israel). By the way not all Palestines (and not all Israeli) share the same opinion. Your opinion is shamefully racist, comparing an entire people with animals. it's like saying that Jews are rats because the majority of them supports Sharon. (as some extremist Arabs said, in private, as such language is illegal in this country)

All the Arab nations, and also the Palestinian Arabs, should listen to the Rolling Stones.

"You can't always get what you want. No, you can't always get what you wa-ant. You can't always get what you waant. But if you try sometime, you might find, you can get what you need...."

Israel doesn't need the WB and Gaza for its defense, that's nonsense, especially in modern times with quick technological material. Israel wANTS the WB and Gaza. The palestinians on the other hand NEED those territories, as it's the only place left for them (who have been etnic cleansed from israel on the past) and it's where they live. Palestinians aren't just Arabs, they're Palestinians.
It's not because a lot of the world speaks english that the us has to give up parts of its territory to, for example, the Gypsies...

[abu afak]

Originally posted by takeo
Difficult to stay polite in dealing with people like you, but I'll try anyway.
All palestinians are equally culpable and guilty because they "support violence"? And therefor they are beasts? In that case you have exactly the same logic as Hamas, who attack israeli civilians because, according to them, the majority of Israeli voted for Sharon and support the military occupation of the occupied territories (the area conquered in 1967 is NOT a part of israel). By the way not all Palestines (and not all Israeli) share the same opinion. Your opinion is shamefully racist, comparing an entire people with animals. it's like saying that Jews are rats because the majority of them supports Sharon. (as some extremist Arabs said, in private, as such language is illegal in this country)

I believe the Last Poll I saw said app. 2/3 of Palestinians support Suicide bombing.... and just found this quaint bit from a friend:

"PA Honors Hamas Suicide Bombers By Naming Soccer Teams After Them

By KHALED ABU TOAMEH - The Jerusalem Post, Jan. 21, 2003

The Palestinian Authority has decided to commemorate the memory of Abdel Baset Odeh, the Hamas terrorist who carried out the suicide bombing in a Netanya hotel last Passover Eve, by naming a soccer tournament after his name. Thirty people were killed and dozens injured in the attack, which triggered Operation Defensive Shield.

The Palestinian Authority’s ministries of sports and education have been naming tournaments after the names of Palestinian "martyrs" for some years now. But the decision to honor Odeh has surprised many Palestinians because of his affiliation with Hamas.

Seven school teams are participating in the tournament, which is taking place in Tulkarem, the hometown of Odeh. Each one of the teams has been named after a "martyr" from the city. Sources in Tulkarem told The Jerusalem Post that the decision to honor Odeh and the others was not related to their political affiliations, but is based on the fact that they all lived in the city.

Karmi was killed in what was believed to be a targeted assassination planned by the IDF.

Tarek Abu Safaka, who carried out the suicide attack in Hermesh on February 10, 2002, killing three Israelis, has also been honored. One of the soccer teams now carries his name, the paper said."""



Originally posted by takeo
Israel doesn't need the WB and Gaza for its defense, that's nonsense, especially in modern times with quick technological material. Israel wANTS the WB and Gaza. The palestinians on the other hand NEED those territories, as it's the only place left for them (who have been etnic cleansed from israel on the past) and it's where they live. Palestinians aren't just Arabs, they're Palestinians.
It's not because a lot of the world speaks english that the us has to give up parts of its territory to, for example, the Gypsies...

Isreal does need at least part of the West Bank for Defense, 3 wars have shown that.

Gaza they can keep... as a matter of fact put the whole West Bank group there too.


tokeo ""Palestinians aren't just Arabs, they're Palestinians.""

Wrong, they ARE Just Arabs.

Kurds aren't just Turks and Iraqis though.... they're Kurds, and DO need a state.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by takeo
The palestinians on the other hand NEED those territories, as it's the only place left for them (who have been etnic cleansed from israel on the past) and it's where they live. Palestinians aren't just Arabs, they're Palestinians.

Had these same Palestinians not worn out their welcome with the Jordanians, they could have had all the land they needed. But that was not on their agenda. From Arafat's mouth to your ears, "We will not be satisfied until we have driven the Jews into the sea." They nee the WB and Gaza only as a staging ground for war. To assume anything else is to ignore the facts.

[Lowell]

I imagine, takeo, that it must be difficult for an apologist for terrorists to cultivate a demeanor of politeness toward those who view your defense of the Philistines as mere odious slaverings. Poor dear. Most Germans supported or condoned the Nazis, and like the Nazi beasts themselves Germans who 'merely' condoned Nazism were shot down like rabid dogs- or skunks- and, I say, good riddance. It is the same with the "Palestinians" who merely support Arafat and his reign of terrorism, all will share his inglorious fate. Doubtless he will end as did Hitler- in a bombed out bunker blowing his own head off, and I will say then, too: good riddance.

Even less do I consider them martyrs or heroes, as Mr. Arafat, hollering and spitting saliva described them to me in 1972. (Or when I interviewed him at Amman, where his marshals were also training the Badder-Meinhof terrorists.)...

I’d scream: "Illustrious Mr. Arafat, the martyrs are the passengers of the four airplanes that were hijacked and transformed into human bombs. Among them is a four year old little girl who disintegrated in the second tower. Illustrious Mr. Arafat, the martyrs are the employees who worked in the two towers and at the Pentagon. Illustrious Mr. Arafat, the martyrs are the firemen who died trying to save them. And do you know who the heroes are? The passengers of the flight that was supposed to throw itself into the White House but instead crashed into the woods in Pennsylvania because they fought back! There ought to be a paradise for them, illustrious Mr. Arafat. ...

Oriana Fallaci: Rage (http://italian.about.com/library/fallaci/blfallaci03.htm)

Hollering and spitting, and drooling!

[takeo]

yes most palestinians support suicide-bombers, as most Israeli support the fascist policy of sharon-government. war feeds extremism on both sides.

Isreal does need at least part of the West Bank for Defense, 3 wars have shown that.

Gaza they can keep... as a matter of fact put the whole West Bank group there too.

How? In which war? tell me?
If you look at the map you don't need to be a military strategist to find out that jordan can attack Israel directly avoiding the westbank.
So you want to put millions of people in a huge concentration camp in the gaza? already today most inhabitants of gaza are people or family of people who have been etnic cleansed from israel propper ( a reason why Gaza-inhabitants are generally more radical than Westbank inhabitants)




Wrong, they ARE Just Arabs.

"arabs" do not really exist, they speak the same language, THAT4s it. if you would have travelled trough arab countries, you would know that there're giant differences between the different Arab countries and cultures.


Kurds aren't just Turks and Iraqis though.... they're Kurds, and DO need a state.

That's right, as the palestinians as well, and they fight for it all the same.


Had these same Palestinians not worn out their welcome with the Jordanians, they could have had all the land they needed. But that was not on their agenda. From Arafat's mouth to your ears, "We will not be satisfied until we have driven the Jews into the sea." They nee the WB and Gaza only as a staging ground for war. To assume anything else is to ignore the facts.

arafat's mouth? tell me when and where please... (and please don't start to mention to so-called "Stockholm-speech"... )


I imagine, takeo, that it must be difficult for an apologist for terrorists to cultivate a demeanor of politeness toward those who view your defense of the Philistines as mere odious slaverings. Poor dear. Most Germans supported or condoned the Nazis, and like the Nazi beasts themselves Germans who 'merely' condoned Nazism were shot down like rabid dogs- or skunks- and, I say, good riddance. It is the same with the "Palestinians" who merely support Arafat and his reign of terrorism, all will share his inglorious fate. Doubtless he will end as did Hitler- in a bombed out bunker blowing his own head off, and I will say then, too: good riddance.

This is a terrible insult to the german people. Actually nazi's were only shot in the Eastern part of Germany, the Americans on the other hand recruited them to join them in their new struggle against the communists.
Comparing Arafat to Hitler is just insane and an insult to all victims of nazism. Arafat fights oppression, etnic cleansing and occupation, so he can be compared to the people who resisted the German occupation in Europe.

by the way arafat not only condemned the terrorist acts on 11/9, he was one of the first politicians to give blood. In fact osama bin laden and hamas, those extremists, are the best allies Bush and sharon could wish for, they give them the excuses to launch a terrible war, not against the terrorists, who can quietly hide in pakistan (and hopefully, as in the past, carry out some terrorist acts, preferably in America's rivals russia or china) but against anyone resisting oppression and occupation in the region.

[Communication]

takeo,

Israel exists. Deal with it.




_______________________________
"I'm not anti-French. I just don't think that France should exist." Pepe Lapue

[Lowell]

Originally posted by takeo
yes most palestinians support suicide-bombers, as most Israeli support the fascist policy of sharon-government. war feeds extremism on both sides.

This is a terrible insult to the german people. Actually nazi's were only shot in the Eastern part of Germany, the Americans on the other hand recruited them to join them in their new struggle against the communists.
Comparing Arafat to Hitler is just insane and an insult to all victims of nazism. Arafat fights oppression, etnic cleansing and occupation, so he can be compared to the people who resisted the German occupation in Europe.

by the way arafat not only condemned the terrorist acts on 11/9, he was one of the first politicians to give blood. In fact osama bin laden and hamas, those extremists, are the best allies Bush and sharon could wish for, they give them the excuses to launch a terrible war, not against the terrorists, who can quietly hide in pakistan (and hopefully, as in the past, carry out some terrorist acts, preferably in America's rivals russia or china) but against anyone resisting oppression and occupation in the region.

Since when is self-defense a 'fascist policy'? Arafat is occupying Israel, 'ethnic cleansing' Jews from the area he occupies and behaving precisely like a Nazi; his ultimate goal is to 'drive the Jews into the sea'. Some resistance fighter: he and his Philistines are the oppression in Israel. Yes, he made a big public show of giving blood after 9-11, the hypocrite, but we do not want his diseased blood. Comparing Arafat to Hitler would only increase his megalomania, and he does not have the courage to die in war, so I will more accurately compare him to Eichmann who died kicking upon an Israeli gallows, hung for his horrible crimes. So be it.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by takeo
arafat's mouth? tell me when and where please... (and please don't start to mention to so-called "Stockholm-speech"... )

How about some Arafat quotes:
"The goal of our struggle is the end of Israel, and there can be no compromise."
(Washington Post, March 1970)

"Peace for us means the destruction of Israel."
(El Mundo, Caracas, Venezuela, February 1980)

"The jihad will continue ... You have to understand our main battle is Jerusalem ... It is not their capitol. It is our capitol."
(Arafat's speech in Johannesburg, South Africa, May 1994)

"By Allah I swear ... that the Palestinian people are prepared to sacrifice the last boy and the last girl so that the Palestinian flag will be flown over the walls, the churches and the mosques of Jerusalem."
(Arafat, Jerusalem Post, September 1995)

Originally posted by takeo
Comparing Arafat to Hitler is just insane and an insult to all victims of nazism. Arafat fights oppression, etnic cleansing and occupation, so he can be compared to the people who resisted the German occupation in Europe.

Arafat fights oppression ... and that is why he kills those who truly would see freedom and progress for the Palwstinian people.
Arafat fights ethnic cleansing ... and that is why he advocates, supports and orchestrates the systematic and diabolical murder of innocent Jews.
Arafat fights occupation ... and that is why he has no peace plan to offer and swears by allah that he will continue the bloodshed until every Palestinian is dead.

Arafat vs. Hitler ... the comparison stands.

Oh, and the victims you refer to, they are the same people, the Jews.

Originally posted by takeo
by the way arafat not only condemned the terrorist acts on 11/9, he was one of the first politicians to give blood.
Condemns the acts of 11 September, while his people celebrate in teh streets, what a sham. The man is a two-faced liar, a conniving extortionist, and a proven terrorist. He has proven that he cannot be trusted and that, like Saddam, has come to the place where he will force a change in leadership so that the Palestinians can find real freedom.

[takeo]

Since when is self-defense a 'fascist policy'? Arafat is occupying Israel, 'ethnic cleansing' Jews from the area he occupies and behaving precisely like a Nazi; his ultimate goal is to 'drive the Jews into the sea'. Some resistance fighter: he and his Philistines are the oppression in Israel. Yes, he made a big public show of giving blood after 9-11, the hypocrite, but we do not want his diseased blood. Comparing Arafat to Hitler would only increase his megalomania, and he does not have the courage to die in war, so I will more accurately compare him to Eichmann who died kicking upon an Israeli gallows, hung for his horrible crimes. So be it.

It isn't self-defense, self-defense would be INSIDE Israel, but israel is defending occupied territories, as germany was defensing occupied territories in Europe. In both cases the occupiers are very much hated by the population and oppress them. His ultimate goal is a palestinian state in the occupied territories, but as you believe in the fascist retorics of "greater Israel," comparable to the Greater Germany-ideas of Hitler, you will never accept such a palestinian state.



"The goal of our struggle is the end of Israel, and there can be no compromise."
(Washington Post, March 1970)

That was a long time before the Oslo-agreements, in that time sharon and all other israeli politicians swore that they would never accept a Palestinian state.


"The jihad will continue ... You have to understand our main battle is Jerusalem ... It is not their capitol. It is our capitol."
(Arafat's speech in Johannesburg, South Africa, May 1994)

"By Allah I swear ... that the Palestinian people are prepared to sacrifice the last boy and the last girl so that the Palestinian flag will be flown over the walls, the churches and the mosques of Jerusalem."
(Arafat, Jerusalem Post, September 1995)

Eastern jerusalem is internationally recognised as the capital of Palestine and belongs to the occupied territories. Did you ever hear him say "tel aviv" or "haifa"?



Arafat fights oppression ... and that is why he kills those who truly would see freedom and progress for the Palwstinian people.
Arafat fights ethnic cleansing ... and that is why he advocates, supports and orchestrates the systematic and diabolical murder of innocent Jews.
Arafat fights occupation ... and that is why he has no peace plan to offer and swears by allah that he will continue the bloodshed until every Palestinian is dead.

arafat isn't killing anyone, all the terrorist groups have ignored his calls to stop the violence and have disrespected his autority. he has a peace-plan to offer, he is ready to negociate starting from the camp-david- israeli proposals but with a few corrections. Israel on the other hand refuses any peace-talks. I really have a negative feeling about the conflict, it will last for years if the election-results will be as in the polls. Or worse...


Oh, and the victims you refer to, they are the same people, the Jews.

yeah right, as if the palestinian civilians didn't suffer. They suffer a lot more than the Israeli. They have no land, no economy, no freedom, and are since decades oppressed by the . they are the real victims, as the Jews were (among others) the victims of the nazi-occupation policy.

Condemns the acts of 11 September, while his people celebrate in teh streets, what a sham. The man is a two-faced liar, a conniving extortionist, and a proven terrorist. He has proven that he cannot be trusted and that, like Saddam, has come to the place where he will force a change in leadership so that the Palestinians can find real freedom.

The only palestinians popular enough to replace him are much more radical, but of course sooner or later his health-condition will force him to resign, in that case i hope palestinian will not let them lead by anger in choosing a leader, as the israeli did, but by ration.
The real lier is sharon, who promised peace during his first election but couldn't bring peace nor prosperity. he is also a corrupted Son of a ***** who lied to his own people.

[Mediocrates]

The PLO will descend into a period of civil war and anarchy followed by totalitarianism, and you know it. When tyrants die, this is what occurs. Of course you'll smugly blame the Jews and offer nothing but we expect that.

I understand fully you see the existence of Israel as a mistake of history that needs to be corrected by force. Really I do. Your words and those of Hamas are largely interchangeable.

You could have written this:

Farouq Al-Qaddoumi: In Support of "Resistance Attacks" Inside Israel and Pressuring Europe with Oil Hikes; "We [Fatah] Were Never Different from Hamas"

In a recent interview with the Arab-Israeli weekly Kul Al-Arab, (1) Farouq Al-Qaddoumi, head of the PLO political bureau and secretary general of Fatah's Central Committee, (2) expressed support for attacks inside Israel and stated that there had never been a difference between the strategies of Fatah and Hamas. He also recommended pressuring Europe with oil hikes. The following are excerpts from the interview:

"The Resistance Is Legitimate"

Question: "Do you support resistance within the 1948 areas as well [as in the occupied territories]?"

Al-Qaddoumi: "It is the Palestinian people's right to resist in all territories of the Palestinian land as long as Israel does not completely cease [its actions], and as long as it has no mercy on children, the elderly, trees, roads, institutions, and security personnel who have entered [the territories]... The resistance is legitimate; we are struggling for our national rights. It is Israel that bears the responsibility."

... Even if there is a single shot in a month, it is good for us, because we want the emotional and social pressure in Israel to continue, so that a message will be sent to the international community that there is an alternative to third-party intervention so that we can begin to arrive at a just arrangement."

Question: "What is your opinion on martyrdom operations?"

Al-Qaddoumi: "We are fighting as a popular movement. We cannot stop every operation. We are not an army and we cannot prevent the martyrdom operations..."

Question: "Must a solution [to the Palestinian problem] come from America?"

Al-Qaddoumi: "No, not only [from America]. This problem was created by the United Nations when it decided on the partition resolution. The superpowers and the entire world are also party [to this]."




I can't for the life of me see any daylight that separates you two. Which is fine, let's just admit it already and be done with any other pretence.

[takeo]

I think Palestinians will choose someone capable of dealing with both the international community and his own people, and forcefull enough to eliminate the terrorist insurgeants, by convincing them that their tactics are damaging the palestinian interests or if this isn't possible by force. I don't think there will be civil war, altough that's of course what the israeli are hoping for.

His words are not interchangeable with mine: as you know i condamned terrorist actions against civilians, whereas he is not clear about this subject. (it's becomming boring to repeat, but apparently people only read what they want to read)

but of course i support this statement:


"It is the Palestinian people's right to resist in all territories of the Palestinian land as long as Israel does not completely cease [its actions], and as long as it has no mercy on children, the elderly, trees, roads, institutions, and security personnel who have entered [the territories]... The resistance is legitimate; we are struggling for our national rights. It is Israel that bears the responsibility."

[Mediocrates]

Oh they condemn terrorism too. Problem is, the only thing they say is terrorism is IDF counterterrorism. Again, that could be a pearl dropp'd from thy lips.


"It's not that I think the earth if flat, it's that everyone is lying when they say it is round."

[JustPat]

Originally posted by takeo
In response to the 1970 Arafat quote: That was a long time before the Oslo-agreements, in that time sharon and all other israeli politicians swore that they would never accept a Palestinian state. I see absolutely nothing to make me believe that the skunk has changed his stripes.


Originally posted by takeo
In response to the 1995 Arafat quote: Eastern jerusalem is internationally recognised as the capital of Palestine and belongs to the occupied territories. Did you ever hear him say "tel aviv" or "haifa"? Hmmm ... I didn't see any limitation to East Jerusalem. Funny how quotes leave out key words when takeo needs them.

Originally posted by takeo
arafat isn't killing anyone, all the terrorist groups have ignored his calls to stop the violence and have disrespected his autority. Since Arafat is unable to lead, he should step aside and let someone who can step up.

Originally posted by takeo he has a peace-plan to offer, he is ready to negociate starting from the camp-david- israeli proposals but with a few corrections. Israel on the other hand refuses any peace-talks. I really have a negative feeling about the conflict, it will last for years if the election-results will be as in the polls. Or worse... Is your memory so short? It was Arafat who left Barak sitting at the table and made no counter offer. That is Arafat's plan, no plan - no peace. Remember, it was Arafat who pledged to fight until every Palestinian was dead. Real peace plan. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by takeo yeah right, as if the palestinian civilians didn't suffer. They suffer a lot more than the Israeli. They have no land, no economy, no freedom...Perhaps if Arafat would quit stealing the aid and support that is sent to him and actually look out for the people he is supposed to be leading this would all turn around. Oh, but that's right, he cannot lead and gets no respect. That is why the money doesn't reach the people who really need it.

Originally posted by takeo The only palestinians popular enough to replace him are much more radical, but of course sooner or later his health-condition will force him to resign ... True, I hear that lead poinsoning is often immediately fatal. I only wonder who will infect him, Israel for his failure to depart from his terrorist roots or Palestinians who finally get tired of his corruption and abuse?

[takeo]

I see absolutely nothing to make me believe that the skunk has changed his stripes.

Perhaps his constant calls to end the violence?



Since Arafat is unable to lead, he should step aside and let someone who can step up.

that's an entirely different language than "the terrorist murderer arafat who ordered his troops to blow up children. " Still he is unable to lead because the pa isn't a state yet and has been largely destroyed by Israel.



Is your memory so short? It was Arafat who left Barak sitting at the table and made no counter offer. That is Arafat's plan, no plan - no peace. Remember, it was Arafat who pledged to fight until every Palestinian was dead. Real peace plan.

BS, it was Barak who didn't want to negociate over his plan, "take it or leave it". Arafat was always ready to reopen the negociations, even nowadays. israel refuses bluntly since sharon came to power.



Perhaps if Arafat would quit stealing the aid and support that is sent to him and actually look out for the people he is supposed to be leading this would all turn around. Oh, but that's right, he cannot lead and gets no respect. That is why the money doesn't reach the people who really need it.

all right, so the palestinian desastrous economic conditions have nothing to do with the fact that palestinian cities are closest most of the day, that israeli settlers can expropriate whatever palestinian land they want and with the destruction of all infrastructure?



True, I hear that lead poinsoning is often immediately fatal. I only wonder who will infect him, Israel for his failure to depart from his terrorist roots or Palestinians who finally get tired of his corruption and abuse?

Palestinians won't kill their leader ,not even his extremist adversaries, as they know it would only benefit Israel. if he gets killed, it will be an israeli bullet/poison.

[MGB8]

JustPat,

There are some who are so blinded by their own convictions that they are willing to go to any length of self-deception to ignore truth that hurts what they want to believe.

In this case, some ignore the fact that Arafat has been quoted as saying he wants to destroy Israel still, the "trojan horse," that Arafat funds terrorism (with money from Europe) and in fact orders it, according to other Palestinians.

They ignore that this intifadah was planned.

They ignore that for 9 years the Palestinians HAD a provisional state, with an airport, with unofficial, but de-facto, capitol in Jerusalem and state houses etc.

They ignore that he never stopped the violence, that he didn't jail terrorist he said he jailed (as proven over and over again when the IDF killed these supposedly jailed terrorist while driving nice and free in there Mercedez Benz's or Jeeps)

They ignore the fact that the Palestinian Arab schoolbooks teach that ALL of Israel is Arab land "stolen" from them, and that they don't recognize Israel's existance on any maps, even though they agreed to in the Oslo accords.

They ignore the countless times that Arafat has been caught lying - from Jenin (and then taping fake death scenes) to the Karine A to countless other exagerations and lies.

They ignore the dancing in the streets at Israeli deaths or the WTC bombings or cheering Iraq.

They believe only what they want to believe - they are hopeless and not worth wasting your time with.