Hasbara and the return of death penalty in Israel

[Miriam]

If the "unedited message" is genuine, and I have a feeling it is - -

Would someone kindly tell me where the public execution of the person responsible for Moni Mordechai's appointment will take place and the exact time of the happy event? I promise to attend.



Wrom: SKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVI
Message-ID: <156.aafd8be.29c7b14f@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 16:08:31 EST

Subject: Why we have a hasbara problem

To: amcha@shamash.org
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The following unedited message was sent to editors of Jewish newspapers in
the US, S. America, Russia and Israel by Moni Mordechai, chief aide to Deputy
Foreign Minister Rabbi Michael Melchior:


Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 1:16 PM
Subject: melchior's speach in Geneva


hi
i enclosed rabbi Melchior's speach that he is due to take tommorow at the
commision on human right in GENEVA
As u will see it is a storng speach that accuses this institution that is
being used for political reasons, as a continuation to Durban.
R' Melchior has asked me to ask u to consider printing it, maybe even for the
friday eddition.
yours,

moni mordechai



http://shamash.org/listarchives/amcha/log0203

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by Miriam
If the "unedited message" is genuine, and I have a feeling it is - -

Would someone kindly tell me where the public execution of the person responsible for Moni Mordechai's appointment will take place and the exact time of the happy event? I promise to attend.



Wrom: SKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVI
Message-ID: <156.aafd8be.29c7b14f@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 16:08:31 EST

Subject: Why we have a hasbara problem

To: amcha@shamash.org
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45
Sender: owner-amcha@shamash.org
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.09/990901/11:28 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN


The following unedited message was sent to editors of Jewish newspapers in
the US, S. America, Russia and Israel by Moni Mordechai, chief aide to Deputy
Foreign Minister Rabbi Michael Melchior:


Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 1:16 PM
Subject: melchior's speach in Geneva


hi
i enclosed rabbi Melchior's speach that he is due to take tommorow at the
commision on human right in GENEVA
As u will see it is a storng speach that accuses this institution that is
being used for political reasons, as a continuation to Durban.
R' Melchior has asked me to ask u to consider printing it, maybe even for the
friday eddition.
yours,

moni mordechai



http://shamash.org/listarchives/amcha/log0203 I am confused by more than one thing in your post.

You indicated that you were including Rabbi Melchior's speech, but the link you provided took me to an article by a man named Moshe Feiglin.

Also, you have taken the interesting tact of including a list of people whom you have placed on your ignore list. I have heard this mentioned from time to time by others and have even considered using it myself, but I decided having large "holes" in the conversation created by myself in order to avoid seeing anything but my own thoughts would make my participation here meaningless.

To actually post the names of the people you have on "ignore" does not strike me as a "courtesy" to them. It strkes me as something else.

By the way, why would anyone put Peacelover on the "ignore" list?

Oh yes, I almost forgot,your post, sarcastically or not, implies that the execution of the person with whom you disagree would be the proper result. Sort of the ultimate "ignore" function, I guess.

[Mediocrates]

I think telling someone that you are not planning on paying attention to them is actually a courtesy that keeps the flow moving.

Did you read the speech? It's pretty over the top for a government official. It's what we accuse the Dutch, etc. of.

[Miriam]

Originally posted by MichaelC


You indicated that you were including Rabbi Melchior's speech, but the link you provided took me to an article by a man named Moshe Feiglin.The link indicates merely the source: an archive of mailings I took this particular mail from, and my name is not "Motti Mordechai", in case you missed it :p

Oh yes, I almost forgot,your post, sarcastically or not, implies that the execution of the person with whom you disagree would be the proper result. Sort of the ultimate "ignore" function, I guess.Umm... a liberal interpretation, to put it mildly.

By the way, why would anyone put Peacelover on the "ignore" list?Because in my real life I tend to recommend anyone who feels him/herself not appreciated enough by Jews while incessantly praising his/her virtues, a pattern all too familiar to me, to look for a nice psychological counsellor. But I am in no mood for a discussion of this kind at present and on this forum.



Thanks, Mediocrates:
Originally posted by Mediocrates
I think telling someone that you are not planning on paying attention to them is actually a courtesy that keeps the flow moving.Exactly :)

Btw., I borrowed the idea from Moon, another fellow European Jew, sadly absent from here for months now. Funny that his sig didn't cause such a commotion ;)

Did you read the speech? It's pretty over the top for a government official. It's what we accuse the Dutch, etc. of.Got a link to it?

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by Miriam
The link indicates merely the source: an archive of mailings I took this particular mail from, and my name is not "Motti Mordechai", in case you missed it :p

Umm... a liberal interpretation, to put it mildly.

Because in my real life I tend to recommend anyone who feels him/herself not appreciated enough by Jews while incessantly praising his/her virtues, a pattern all too familiar to me, to look for a nice psychological counsellor. But I am in no mood for a discussion of this kind at present and on this forum.



Thanks, Mediocrates:
Exactly :)

Btw., I borrowed the idea from Moon, another fellow European Jew, sadly absent from here for months now. Funny that his sig didn't cause such a commotion ;)

Got a link to it? I haven't seen any of the writings that you attribute to Peacelover, though I take your word for it that you have been sorely offended by her. I myself didn't care much for the kinds of posts she used to make, but I watched as she went through changes and started looking at things from a different angle. I think she may have learned things from those participants who didn't put her on an ignore list. I could be wrong though. Maybe she's just evolving in the natural course of things.

Her being on your ignore list and all, you might not have noticed that.

Now that Mediocrates has indicated that posting an "ignore list" as a signature is a good thing, I hope everyone starts doing it. I would kind of like to see if anyone is listening to anyone around here. This could be a real eye opener.

I expect my name will soon appear on yours.

[Miriam]

Originally posted by MichaelC


I haven't seen any of the writings that you attribute to Peacelover, though I take your word for it that you have been sorely offended by her. I myself didn't care much for the kinds of posts she used to make, but I watched as she went through changes and started looking at things from a different angle. I think she may have learned things from those participants who didn't put her on an ignore list. I could be wrong though. Maybe she's just evolving in the natural course of things.

Her being on your ignore list and all, you might not have noticed that.I put her there yesterday. Take a look at the "Rabbi Stabbed in Paris Synagogue" thread.

Now that Mediocrates has indicated that posting an "ignore list" as a signature is a good thing, I hope everyone starts doing it. I would kind of like to see if anyone is listening to anyone around here. This could be a real eye opener.

I expect my name will soon appear on yours. Poor you...

[Miriam]

Anyone care to discuss the real subject - the competence of the Israeli diplomatic apparatus and the appointment procedures?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by MichaelC

I expect my name will soon appear on yours.

I’ll put you on my ignore list if you put me on mine. That’s fair!

I had the distinct honor of being on vic’s/Miriam’s (one of the same) ignore list for a day or two and it really hurt my feelings.


*GGGGGG*

[peacelover]

Originally posted by Miriam
Anyone care to discuss the real subject - the competence of the Israeli diplomatic apparatus and the appointment procedures?

Can't, sorry, I'm too upset about being on her ignore list! :(

Should I change my signature to "Miriam - bothered"?

Try this link (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=2220&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)

Here is the link she suggested you look at - please go there, I am not ashamed of anything I said. Sorry, but when people keep throwing awful incidences of anti-semitism at me (which I happily condemn), just to try to make me feel guilty or inferior, I will stand up and say that just because I am not Jewish, it does not mean I am morally inferior, in the same way as any Jew has the right to stand up for themselves when someone tries to suggest they are in someway subordinate because of their ethnicity. This is just to clarify for those of you who don't read the link that I did not claim that Jews ought to spend their lives in admiration of gentiles - I said no such thing, and I don't want people to think I did just because Miriam gets bitter and starts lying about people who don't agree with her.

I haven't seen any of the writings that you attribute to Peacelover, though I take your word for it that you have been sorely offended by her

This may be off-topic, but actually, I have never been rude to Miriam, whereas she has consistently called me an anti-semite, suggested I see a psychologist, suggest that Jewish people shouldn't want to talk to me, and tried to make me feel guilty for being British. Take it from me, I could have got offended by her should I care what she thinks of me. Especially as whenever you ask her to back up her accusations she categorically fails.

To be honest I couldn't give a damn if Miriam blocks me or not (people always block when they're losing the argument ;), besides, her real area of expertise is in being rude and sarcatic to mask the fact that she never really says anything of substance...), but it does beg the question of why come to a message board if you are only going to block everyone who doesn't agree with you? Surely the very point of a forum is so that people can air different views, not restrict ourselves to people we agree with so we can all pat ourselves on the back and tell each other how right we are?

Fair enough if someone is racist or abusive, but I have never been either of those two things. Even when I was more on the side of the Pals, I aired my views (as entitled), but I don't think I crossed the line. As Palestinian supporters go, my views were moderate. And I don't think cblanc, l@mplighter or teacake were offensive either. I don't agree with them, but as I've said, that is the whole point of a forum!

To be honest, it says more about the people doing the ignoring than the people being ignored...

I myself didn't care much for the kinds of posts she used to make, but I watched as she went through changes and started looking at things from a different angle. I think she may have learned things from those participants who didn't put her on an ignore list. I could be wrong though. Maybe she's just evolving in the natural course of things.

I'll answer this MIchaelC cos you asked about it in another thread. To be honest, it wasn't really this board. It was on another board I go on with Communication (btw listen to this girl - she has something to say worth listening to IMHO) that I learned, and it was a hell of a lot easier to learn there, and I'll tell you why - over there, the atmosphere was friendly, and non-accusatory, so people didn't get defensive when people made posts critical of Israel, or of the Palestinians, and because it wasn't bitter, people weren't afraid to be wrong.

Here, however, I think people post with inflammatory remarks about the "other side" so to speak, so the supporters of the criticised party will get defensive and indignant, and so it would be hard to develop views.

Mostly, my views changed by speaking to Jewish people in real life. This helped me see how much Israel meant to them, and it made me want to understand their point of view. This made it easier to look past what I wanted to see, to see the truth. Despite what Miriam thinks, I get on very well with Jews in real life, and to me (and hopefully to them) this is very refreshing, because it shows that people who you would expect to be enemies can be friends, and empathise with one another. After all, if we can't get on in the diaspora, why even dream of peace in the Middle East? I'm not ashamed to say that I find the fact I am friend with my Jewish friends more special than with my non-Jewish friends. That's not to say I like them more or less, but there is a special bond there in a way it's hard to describe over the internet.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by peacelover
Can't, sorry, I'm too upset about being on her ignore list! :(

Should I change my signature to "Miriam - bothered"?

Try this link (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=2220&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)

Here is the link she suggested you look at - please go there, I am not ashamed of anything I said. Sorry, but when people keep throwing awful incidences of anti-semitism at me (which I happily condemn), just to try to make me feel guilty or inferior, I will stand up and say that just because I am not Jewish, it does not mean I am morally inferior, in the same way as any Jew has the right to stand up for themselves when someone tries to suggest they are in someway subordinate because of their ethnicity. This is just to clarify for those of you who don't read the link that I did not claim that Jews ought to spend their lives in admiration of gentiles - I said no such thing, and I don't want people to think I did just because Miriam gets bitter and starts lying about people who don't agree with her.



This may be off-topic, but actually, I have never been rude to Miriam, whereas she has consistently called me an anti-semite, suggested I see a psychologist, suggest that Jewish people shouldn't want to talk to me, and tried to make me feel guilty for being British. Take it from me, I could have got offended by her should I care what she thinks of me. Especially as whenever you ask her to back up her accusations she categorically fails.

To be honest I couldn't give a damn if Miriam blocks me or not (people always block when they're losing the argument ;), besides, her real area of expertise is in being rude and sarcatic to mask the fact that she never really says anything of substance...), but it does beg the question of why come to a message board if you are only going to block everyone who doesn't agree with you? Surely the very point of a forum is so that people can air different views, not restrict ourselves to people we agree with so we can all pat ourselves on the back and tell each other how right we are?

Fair enough if someone is racist or abusive, but I have never been either of those two things. Even when I was more on the side of the Pals, I aired my views (as entitled), but I don't think I crossed the line. As Palestinian supporters go, my views were moderate. And I don't think cblanc, l@mplighter or teacake were offensive either. I don't agree with them, but as I've said, that is the whole point of a forum!

To be honest, it says more about the people doing the ignoring than the people being ignored...



I'll answer this MIchaelC cos you asked about it in another thread. To be honest, it wasn't really this board. It was on another board I go on with Communication (btw listen to this girl - she has something to say worth listening to IMHO) that I learned, and it was a hell of a lot easier to learn there, and I'll tell you why - over there, the atmosphere was friendly, and non-accusatory, so people didn't get defensive when people made posts critical of Israel, or of the Palestinians, and because it wasn't bitter, people weren't afraid to be wrong.

Here, however, I think people post with inflammatory remarks about the "other side" so to speak, so the supporters of the criticised party will get defensive and indignant, and so it would be hard to develop views.

Mostly, my views changed by speaking to Jewish people in real life. This helped me see how much Israel meant to them, and it made me want to understand their point of view. This made it easier to look past what I wanted to see, to see the truth. Despite what Miriam thinks, I get on very well with Jews in real life, and to me (and hopefully to them) this is very refreshing, because it shows that people who you would expect to be enemies can be friends, and empathise with one another. After all, if we can't get on in the diaspora, why even dream of peace in the Middle East? I'm not ashamed to say that I find the fact I am friend with my Jewish friends more special than with my non-Jewish friends. That's not to say I like them more or less, but there is a special bond there in a way it's hard to describe over the internet. [/B]Blessings to you, Peacelover. You certainly show your class with this post.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by peacelover

To be honest I couldn't give a damn if Miriam blocks me or not (people always block when they're losing the argument ;),

Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey!


Finally we found some common ground!


I never thought that I could agree with a 1/8th Palestinian. This is scary I’ll most likely have nightmares tonight.

:D

[Teacake]

ohTo be honest I couldn't give a damn if Miriam blocks me or not (people always block when they're losing the argument , besides, her real area of expertise is in being rude and sarcatic to mask the fact that she never really says anything of substance..
Ohmagawd, its a double hitter... I found something I agree with him as well. I'm glad I'm not alone in these thoughts. I can't tell you how many times I think her comments have been rude and I have a feeling no one has reported her. ITs just as well this way.

As for my ignore list... its for the posts that constantly take up half the page, lke weeding the grass. People usually quote the points so you still see the posts, excepty you have more posts per page.

[Rob]

Originally posted by Teacake
Ohmagawd, its a double hitter... I found something I agree with him as well. I'm glad I'm not alone in these thoughts. I can't tell you how many times I think her comments have been rude and I have a feeling no one has reported her. ITs just as well this way.

As for my ignore list... its for the posts that constantly take up half the page, lke weeding the grass. People usually quote the points so you still see the posts, excepty you have more posts per page.

I can guarantee that this thread or most of it will disappear by the morning. Miriam is protected by the powers that be. The rest of us are just mear peasants or dare I say poor trash (is that an ethnic slur? It's so hard to know these days with all the PC censorship)

[Teacake]

True, this is off topic, but when so much is made out of so little I think its only fair that we can speak about it too. Her problem is that she doesn't know you were making fun of the particular cliche that keeps popping up in headlines about why the world hates America. I thought it was hilarious, especially since greta is a typical elitist stereotype european spouting the same drivel for the past 50 years plus. Too bad she didn't get it and too bad it was deleted and too bad she doesn't have the same level of tolerance the rest of us are pretty much forced to deal with every day by an avalanch of offensive posts. Gosh... I sort of feel like an Israeli being made to keep in line.