Israeli politics disgusts me - will bring Israel to a bad end

[strategist]

If you look at how many empires/regimes have come to an end in the past, then many time it was due to internal factors as much (if not more than) as external factors.

The Roman Empire came to an end due to internal weaknesses, which were capitalized on by their barbarian neighbors.

The British Empire became overstretched and prone to European civil war.

The Ottoman Empire became complacent and backed the wrong horse in WWI.

Israel is starting to give this sign. If the Israelis want to have a state, then they have to stabilize themselves first.

Israeli politics disgusts me. The right are becoming even more extreme (a common factor in empires/regimes that are close to demise). The left seem to be weak and leaderless (also a common factor).

What is worse though, both sides are engaging in extraordinarily dirty political tactics. Both sides are corrupt. Both sides are divided. Neither side has any real vision of the future.

Who can lead Israel today? There is not a single politician who can do the job today.

And what is worse, we even have mafia mobsters like Ivet Liberman running as serious candidates.

This seems to me the perfect recipe for Israel's destruction.

Well, I'm glad I have a foreign passport.

[danholo]

What great speculation. Your post slumped when you started to compare Israel to empires.

[elke]

Throughout centuries, there have been Cassandras singing the demise of different cultures. Sometimes, they were right - and at other times - mostly - they weren't.

Politics is a dirty business, it's dirty everywhere. The difference with a democracy, which has a free press, is that the dirty laundry is there for the airing. In effect, it's this airing that has made a difference with other countries - US, for example.

The analogy that comes to mind is the behavior of wood-frame buildings vs. brick and mortar in an earthquake: when the very ground shakes, it's the more seemingly sturdy brick that collapses like the house of cards; while the more pliant wood will withstand the earthquake with minimal damage. Same with a democracy vs. totalitarianism: the corruption is there too, to a larger extent than in a democracy. It's not in the open, and it doesn't get the chance to be "flushed out" before it's too late.

[strategist]

Originally posted by danholo
What great speculation. Your post slumped when you started to compare Israel to empires.


Your post slumped when you showed yourself to be pompous.

You are apparently part of the problem.



Politics is a dirty business, it's dirty everywhere. The difference with a democracy, which has a free press, is that the dirty laundry is there for the airing. In effect, it's this airing that has made a difference with other countries - US, for example.


I agree, but having lived in 3 countries, and spent considerable time in a number of other countries, I am still shocked by the standard of Israeli politics.

[Mediocrates]

Compared to what, exactly?

[L@mplighterM]

When did Israel become an empire?

[Rob]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
When did Israel become an empire?

Exactly. The subject of Israel certainly brings out the loonies.

Israeli politics disgusts me. The right are becoming even more extreme (a common factor in empires/regimes that are close to demise). The left seem to be weak and leaderless (also a common factor).

Israel is fighting for it's survival. America interned Japanese during WWII. America was not close to demise or did not demise.

You think the left has a better track record in the world? Look at the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, North Korea.

What about the politics of the Arab world?

You fit in well with the other Israel haters from Europe. No wonder Europe play a smaller and smaller role in world affairs.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by strategist
The right are becoming even more extreme (a common factor in empires/regimes that are close to demise). This "common factor" to which you refer? This is some factor from the "University of strategist"? Opinions like this, offered as "fact", mean nothing. This is merely a self important statement of pseudo-fact.
Originally posted by strategist
The left seem to be weak and leaderless (also a common factor) IDEM, see above.
Originally posted by strategist
What is worse though, both sides are engaging in extraordinarily dirty political tactics. I have seen much worse in my own country and, contrary to what you may believe, the U.S. is doing pretty well.
Originally posted by strategist
Neither side has any real vision of the future.Who can lead Israel today? There is not a single politician who can do the job today Another course from the "University of strategist"?

Slinging opinions about in this manner just does not carry much weight.

[Miriam]

Originally posted by strategist


Who can lead Israel today? There is not a single politician who can do the job today. Politicans are not a special human species bred in closed laboratories by divine forces. In state systems known as democracies, on the long run they can do only as much as their happy or unfortunate subjects are willing to tolerate. Where are the Israeli citizens in this?

[strategist]

Well, this thread certainly brought out some loonies :rolleyes:


Slinging opinions about in this manner just does not carry much weight.


Well judging by the weight of the response, you people are featherlightweights.



Politicans are not a special human species bred in closed laboratories by divine forces. In state systems known as democracies, on the long run they can do only as much as their happy or unfortunate subjects are willing to tolerate. Where are the Israeli citizens in this?


The Israeli citizens are mostly sitting on the sidelines watching with amazement at the bizarre spectacle going on around them.

Arik Sharon's behavior the other day (during his speech) was just bizarre. I was embarassed to see him on the TV.

"Labor are irresponsible criminals!" Holy cow. What sort of a person would allow himself to go to such a depth?

As far as I can tell, the only Israelis who liked the speech were the Russians, and their experience of democracy leads a lot to be desired.

Unfortunately, the Russians now overwhelmingly hold the balance of power, and their experience of strongmen and concepts such as 'strategic depth' is likely to confuse them.

[Miriam]

Originally posted by strategist


The Israeli citizens are mostly sitting on the sidelines watching with amazement at the bizarre spectacle going on around them. WHY???
As far as I can tell, the only Israelis who liked the speech were the Russians, and their experience of democracy leads a lot to be desired.

Unfortunately, the Russians now overwhelmingly hold the balance of power, and their experience of strongmen and concepts such as 'strategic depth' is likely to confuse them. As someone who has grown up in Russia, I profoundly appreciate the racist innuendo of such statements. How nice for people like yourself to have some exotic group to blame :mad: :mad: :mad:

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by strategist
The Israeli citizens are mostly sitting on the sidelines watching with amazement at the bizarre spectacle going on around them.
Actually, everybody HERE is sitting on the sidelines watching you make a fool out of yourself .

Please continue.

Any actual FACTS , or do you just intend to posting more exceedingly uninformed opinion on the board in the manner of those who have nothing to offer but their rage and hatred?

[strategist]

Actually, everybody HERE is sitting on the sidelines watching you make a fool out of yourself .


Are you serious? How about giving an intelligent response to what I said? Are you capable of that?

I came here with a serious complaint. Israeli politicians are fighting it out, breeding internal weakness, and possibly threatening the existence of the state.

And you come up with this absolutely pathetic response:

This "common factor" to which you refer? This is some factor from the "University of strategist"? Opinions like this, offered as "fact", mean nothing. This is merely a self important statement of pseudo-fact.


Do you think this is an intelligent response?

Don't you think this has to be one of the most stupid responses that you have ever seen???!!!!!

And you accuse me of making a fool of myself???!!!!!!!!!!!



As someone who has grown up in Russia, I profoundly appreciate the racist innuendo of such statements. How nice for people like yourself to have some exotic group to blame


Russian Jewish immigrants went through 70+ years of communist dictatorship, and immediately moved to Israel.

How on earth do you expect them to have any experience/knowledge of Western democracy?

Racism? That too is a pathetic joke.


I have to say, as much as urban75 annoys me, the people there are far more intelligent and interesting than anyone here.

Pathetic.

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by strategist
Are you serious? How about giving an intelligent response to what I said? Are you capable of that?

I came here with a serious complaint. Israeli politicians are fighting it out, breeding internal weakness, and possibly threatening the existence of the state.

And you come up with this absolutely pathetic response:




Do you think this is an intelligent response?

Don't you think this has to be one of the most stupid responses that you have ever seen???!!!!!

And you accuse me of making a fool of myself???!!!!!!!!!!!






Russian Jewish immigrants went through 70+ years of communist dictatorship, and immediately moved to Israel.

How on earth do you expect them to have any experience/knowledge of Western democracy?

Racism? That too is a pathetic joke.


I have to say, as much as urban75 annoys me, the people there are far more intelligent and interesting than anyone here.

Pathetic.

awe shuks, naw that hurts cuming frem yu

The last time I heard such unconcealed arrogance, was at an intervention.

[alexbmn]

strategist you've forgorten one thing.Israeli politics is always like this.Even during the war of Independence there was political infighting.Israelis only perform well when they feel existentially threatened.1947-82.But right now they dont,as much as it surprises me

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by strategist
Are you serious? How about giving an intelligent response to what I said?

What was your actual question?

I have to say, as much as urban75 annoys me, the people there are far more intelligent and interesting than anyone here.

Pathetic.

Again what was your question?

You alluded to empires. I'm not sure what the context of that is.
You alluded to Empires like the Brits which really isn't germain and the Ottomans who were defeated in WW1 - ok but they also ran their empire as more of a confederacy which large helpings of local power and control.


You allude to corruption (I guess) and then say it's a leading indicator of the fall of an empire which its not. The US for example had much more corrupt government in the 1870-80s through 1893 as well as 1920-30. I think these things are cyclical and not an indication of anything in particular.

But be that as it may. Corruption it is then. I'm not at all sure it's all like the mafia - I guess you're being hyperbolic. So I guess at the root of it, to you , is that there appears to be no new generation of Israeli politicians who have a fresh view and a plan of things.

Was that it?

Let's look for a moment what the constraints are. For one thing the constant stalemate now I think is an expression of the 'Waiting for Arafat to Die" policy. Maybe not such a bad thing if you believe that there is virtually zero possibility to make any meaningful progress with him in place.

Another thing, at least from a Palestinian perspecitive is how you feel about the Supreme Court decision to allow Tibi and company to run for Knesset even though they are far to the other side of radical. I think the general sense is that this will afford Arab Israeli voter participation. Now the question is, ok if that's what you want how do you want to deal with the consequences of an increasingly radicalized Arab minority in the Knesset? Do we simply say its a countervane to the increasingly radicalized right? It would seem that in this context Labor is marginalizing itself becoming the great irrelevant middle.

What would you propose as a vision for the future? It seems you can bang you head on the wall of jihadtifada or you can ignore the 5000 lb rhino in your kitchen and work on local technical administrative logistics. To my my thinking the most basic 'vision thing' is electoral reform itself.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by strategist
What is worse though, both sides are engaging in extraordinarily dirty political tactics. Both sides are corrupt. Both sides are divided. Neither side has any real vision of the future

Actually, both sides have a very clear vision for the future. They have laid out their social and political plans in great detail.

But I agree with you that both sides are running terrible campaigns. Not any different in any way from politics in any other democracy, but dirty and negative just the same.

I, too, am disappointed, and believe that Israel should do better, especially because it is a liberal democracy that spends inordinate amounts of time on self-analysis.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by strategist
Are you serious? How about giving an intelligent response to what I said? Are you capable of that?

I came here with a serious complaint. Israeli politicians are fighting it out, breeding internal weakness, and possibly threatening the existence of the state.

And you come up with this absolutely pathetic response:




Do you think this is an intelligent response?

Don't you think this has to be one of the most stupid responses that you have ever seen???!!!!!

And you accuse me of making a fool of myself???!!!!!!!!!!!






Russian Jewish immigrants went through 70+ years of communist dictatorship, and immediately moved to Israel.

How on earth do you expect them to have any experience/knowledge of Western democracy?

Racism? That too is a pathetic joke.


I have to say, as much as urban75 annoys me, the people there are far more intelligent and interesting than anyone here.

Pathetic. With you making posts like this, I certainly don't need to say anything else to make my point.

[strategist]

What was your actual question?


Not so much a question as a comment.

I stated that empires/regimes collapse mainly due to internal weakness.

Israel, IMO, is now showing significant signs of internal weakness.

Therefore, IMO, Israel is in danger due to the folly of its own leadership.



You alluded to empires. I'm not sure what the context of that is.


I said empires/regimes, but only gave empires as examples.

Since Israel is clearly a regime not an empire, some people here clearly have trouble thinking in abstract.



The US for example had much more corrupt government in the 1870-80s through 1893 as well as 1920-30. I think these things are cyclical and not an indication of anything in particular.


Agreed, but the US has/had a lot of things going for it that Israel doesn't, such as great/abundant wealth and resources, and considerable distance from its potential enemies.


Was that it?


That was part of it.

What annoyed me really was the response of Ben Eliezer to the election of Mitzna. Ben Eliezer's followers said that if Mitzna loses the election they will do everything to depose him. Considering that Ben Eliezer weakness is pretty much responsible for Sharon's strength, this seems an incredibly petty thing to do.

So, Labor are bitterly divided. Likud, if we are believe the media, are intrinsically corrupt (and I am inclined to believe the media on this one). Shas are driven by self-interest and don't give a damn about anyone but themselves. Shinui is totally confused about who/what they are. A dozen or so smaller parties are driven by mostly extremist viewpoints.

And please no-one suggest that it has always been like this. I've lived in Israel on and off (mostly on) since 1987, and it has never been this bad.

Things are definately getting worse.


What would you propose as a vision for the future? It seems you can bang you head on the wall of jihadtifada or you can ignore the 5000 lb rhino in your kitchen and work on local technical administrative logistics. To my my thinking the most basic 'vision thing' is electoral reform itself.


Electoral reform is a good solution, but the smaller parties would never allow it.

My research is suggesting that the sign of a mature organization is the ability to manage Chaos (deliberate capital c).

My observations about Israeli politics is that the ability to manage Chaos is plummeting, hence my fear for Israel's future.


Actually, both sides have a very clear vision for the future. They have laid out their social and political plans in great detail.


True, but... I was actually shocked by the lack of vision contained in these vision statements. They basically regurgitated their previous vision statements. There was nothing 'real' about fundamentally changing the nature of the state to be a vibrant, modern society. About making real improvements. Nothing.



With you making posts like this, I certainly don't need to say anything else to make my point.


Which just goes to show that you are part of the problem. Like a drug addict or an alcoholic, you are incapable of accepting there is a problem, so why go solve it?

[Mediocrates]

Have you ever looked at IASPS

http://www.israeleconomy.org/pub.htm

Two things: I don't if it's still active. And it's probably somewhat more neocon than you. At any rate they take very low level approaches to hard problems.

On your point, it seems as if Labor is floundering since their last disasterous walk out. What was it ostensibly about? $115,000 gap in funding agreements? What was the real reason. I have no idea. I suspect it has something to do with being the anti-Likud and not really knowing how to do that. But clearly I am out my depth for any detailed knowledge of Israeli politics.


The question I have is given the aparent rough and tumble anarchy that is Israeli national politics and given that most likely Likud will hold on to power albeit with 10 fewer seats. Does Labor's failure represent a more fragmented government or a less fragmented rightward government?

[Mediocrates]

"I have come to respond to the despicable plot that has been woven against me and the Likud, and which has one goal: to topple the regime in Israel, and to take over in a deceitful manner.

"I would like to describe to you the turn of events of the past months. About two months ago, the Labor Party decided, with its own internal political interests in mind, to drag the entire country into an election campaign. I said then that the elections were unnecessary, and that Labor's behavior in the midst of a struggle against terror, and on the eve of a possible war with Iraq, was wanton and irresponsible. I must admit that even I did not conceive how wanton and irresponsible their behavior could be. I will give you an example.

"A few weeks ago, I paid a visit at the Home Front command, in order to check the preparations being made for war with Iraq... The chances that Israel will be attacked are not great - but they exist, and we must therefore be prepared in order to give Israeli citizens the best protection. Every child understands this - except for the Labor Party, its supporters, and all who help her. This responsibility is, in the end, upon me. I'm Prime Minister, and the ultimate responsibility falls on me. I go to visit and to check - sometimes in surprise visits - to see how the preparations are being made. I would betray my responsibilities if I did not do this. And here, the Labor Party and all who help it, started to attack me personally, as if these war preparations were just an election campaign trick - as if there were no crisis in Iraq, as if the entire world is not preparing for war, as if we were not attacked once before by Iraq contrary to the predictions of all the experts. [An attack like this] happened in the past, and we must be ready - but not according to the Labor Party. In their minds, there are only elections. The whole world revolves only around them, and around their chances of winning another piece of power. This is how they think - or at least, this is how they talk. This behavior, at the expense of our most sacred thing, is shameful - but even more, it is wanton and irresponsible.

"This example is an indication of everything that has happened here in the past weeks. First, they embarked on a “witch hunt” against the entire Likud, trying to blacken the entire movement and all of its members, and present us as a Mafia and a bunch of mobsters – and all for political motives.

"You can compare the way in which I acted during this incident and the way in which Amram Mitzna acted. For in the Labor Party, incidents of the most serious nature were revealed - of election forgeries, polling booths that disappeared, buying positions with money. There are police investigations, indictments, invalid appointments, false affidavits, everything. Mitzna himself was interrogated by the police regarding two corruption scandals, and his lack of purity of action and his ties with contractors and financial figures in Haifa have been publicized. I, for my part, took immediate action; Mitzna has done nothing. I announced immediately that I would distance from the Likud and from the government anyone whose election was tainted - and I did so. Mitzna did nothing, nothing at all. I appointed a committee to change and revamp the Likud’s primaries system, and adopted its recommendations. Mitzna did nothing when he saw the election forgeries - he did nothing, and will do nothing, because Mitzna and the press that accompanies him are interested not in corruption, or in proper behavior, but only in blackening the Likud. Only the Likud interests it."

“Damage was done to the Likud in the polls, but despite this, Labor stayed stuck [in these polls], and Mitzna just didn’t take off [and gain support]. So they decided to strike out at me via my sons. They took Omri, whose only sin was to come and help me as Prime Minister, and they tried to turn him into a mobster. When this did not work, they found some story about a Greek island and tried to stick it forcefully onto my son Gilad. Let it be clear: this is an old story of a few years, it has nothing to do with me, and the authorities have never asked Gilad even one question about it or to testify about it. Some journalist comes and writes a gossipy story, and the Labor Party immediately jumps on the booty.

"Gilad, who is an economist, made an financial deal - and they call it corruption! Gilad received a fee for his work, and they call it Mafia. I ask: What, have you gone crazy? Have you gone out of your minds?!

"And again, it didn't work. Mitzna was still stuck in the polls, he still can't make it, the aroma of power is still far away from them. So they go on to the next stage. Someone - whose identity is being investigated right now, by order of the Attorney-General - leaked a document filled with gossip and lies about Gilad's business dealings, as if they are tied to me. I would like to tell you the exact facts.
"More than a year ago, the State Comptroller found that donations had been taken against the law, and he informed me of such. I was astonished at the findings. I returned home, discussed it with my sons, and told them - on my own initiative - that we must return all the money to the donors immediately, without waiting - even if we must again mortgage the farm, our home, in order to do this. To the best of my knowledge, I am the only one who did so, who returned this money. Barak has not done so until today, and Mitzna and his association have not done so, even though he should have. Only I did this, on my own initiative, without anyone forcing me to do so. The Comptroller didn't tell me to return it, but I did it on my own when I heard that the donations were beyond that which were permitted. I went on my own and decided on my own to return it all.

"Now, we're talking about a large sum - almost five million shekels. I, after all, do not have financial means. Back in 1989, I removed the farm from my hands - and even before that there had been a trustee, until the boys returned from the army - as the law demanded. When the boys completed their army service, they took over the running of the farm. Today, Gilad runs it successfully, and I am not involved. This is what the law demands. I took my savings, and those of [my wife] Lili of blessed memory, and I gave about a half-million shekels - half of it in an overdraft from the bank - and Gilad took it upon himself to get the rest of the money. After a short while, he brought me the rest of the sum, a bit over four million shekels, and I then returned the money to the donors. [Actually] I returned the first half-million from our savings even before the other money came, in order to show that my intention, as opposed to others, was to return the money. With this, the incident came to an end as far as I was concerned.

"I say here clearly: I did not know exactly how the money was obtained. We had talked about mortgaging the farm, and as far as I knew then, that's what happened. When the police asked me about this, I told them exactly that, and that according to the best of my knowledge, the farm had been mortgaged. If another way had been found, fine. My son Gilad is a businessman, a successful one, and he has made money, and I’m very proud of him. I know that everything was done legally and above board, with documentation and the way it should be. By the way, -"

--At this point, Channel One television apologetically interrupted the broadcast, explaining that it must begin broadcasting the official election propaganda infomercials "in the spirit of the arrangement of the Elections Board headed by Judge Michael Cheshin." Voice of Israel Radio continued to broadcast the speech for another minute or so, however:

"...but what will be with the scandal?! After all, he who leaked, and those who blew up the story, and those who celebrated it - did not do so because they sought the truth. The truth could have been found out very simply, by asking questions, receiving answers, checking documents. But if it's done that way, then of course there's no juicy scandal, and it can't be taken advantage of for political needs. They [knew that that's] not the way to take over power. So they make up things. They tell lies, blow up gossipy stories, and deal with illusions. Take, for example, the incident of my friend Cyril Kern. He is a man who -"

--At this point, Voice of Israel Radio announced that the broadcast had to be stopped by order of Elections Board Chairman Judge Michael Cheshin, because of the electioneering that Sharon had woven into his remarks. The announcer then immediately began to interview Labor Party Secretary-General MK Ophir Pines, asking him not to engage in electioneering but rather to answer Sharon's charges that he had acted resolutely to deal with corruption on both the party and personal level, while the Labor Party leaders did not do so. Pines responded that Sharon had promised to produce facts and documentation, and instead of doing so, he produced "poisonous, deceitful, debased and vile propaganda..."

Excerpts from the remainder of Mr. Sharon's remarks:

“Kern [Sharon's old friend who loaned the money] has no, and probably will not have, business interests in Israel… Is there anything I can give him? Have you gone totally crazy?!”

Regarding Mitzna’s demand that he tell the police his story, Sharon said, “What am I supposed to tell them? About the despicable gossip and the wretched rumors they are spreading? Did he go to the police about his corruption? I refuse to play this low-down game. If the police want to talk to me, they can come; I will hide nothing.”

In conclusion, Sharon said, “I have confidence that the Israeli public will know how to differentiate between the dirty politics of cheap slander, and the politics with which, with national responsibility, we continue to manage the complex affairs of the State of Israel.”

[strategist]

Hmmm, sharon's speech kind of proves what I am talking about. :(

[tkcteccfrs]

Labor continues to lurch to the left as their desperation grows. Despite a well organized smear campaign against Sharon in the leftist media, Labor still flirts with oblivion as people are becoming increasingly aware that their suicidal ideology of surrender and appeasement to the terrorists only results in more dead Jewish children. G-d willing, in our time we will live to see the end of this leftist conspiracy against the survival of the Jewish people. By sending their party youth brigades to protest in front of Sharon’s home just as they did during their betrayal in the Lebanon War, they only serve to remind us that their hatred of the Jewish state and the person most responsible for its survival, Arik Sharon, knows no bounds.

American Zionist Information Network (http://www.azin.org/)

[elke]

Originally posted by strategist
Russian Jewish immigrants went through 70+ years of communist dictatorship, and immediately moved to Israel.

How on earth do you expect them to have any experience/knowledge of Western democracy?


There is a grain of truth in this. However, the mark of intelligence as defined by human beings, is the ability to learn from others. The Russian immigrants you speak of are eminently capable of learning and understanding the concept of Western democracy and much more. Most of them already have high educational level and more than adequate intelligence - otherwise, they wouldn't have survived in the FSU.

If you do not like how the Russian population thinks, - then educate them! Instead, you are making sweeping generalizations, with naive assumption that the Sabras somehow have this innate understanding of Democracy. Make no mistake: there is no such thing! Everyone has learned how to be a citizen in a democratic country, EVERYONE!

[strategist]

with naive assumption that the Sabras somehow have this innate understanding of Democracy.


If I assumed this then why would I have said:


, and immediately moved to Israel.

How on earth do you expect them to have any experience/knowledge of Western democracy?

?

Israelis IMHO, have a very poor understanding of Western democracy.

But, when you consider that perhaps a very low percentage of Israelis originated in Western democracies, what can I expect.

[elke]

Originally posted by strategist
If I assumed this then why would I have said:




?

Israelis IMHO, have a very poor understanding of Western democracy.

But, when you consider that perhaps a very low percentage of Israelis originated in Western democracies, what can I expect.

But the point is that at one time or another, the Western Democracies were also built out of people who never lived in one. None of the Democracies have originated as such: they all evolved into it, they all learned to be it!

Even leaving aside the slavery and treatment of Native Americans, if you look at American history, even as little as 70 years ago - the NY City Police Dept., for example, was on the payroll of the gangsters.

Whatever your views of the Israeli version of democracy, it does fit the definition of one, and it does function as one. Are there problems? Sure! Show me one country where there are no problems, Democracy or otherwise!

Again, no one is saying that things are perfect. However, you are gleefully stating that "thank G-d I have a foreign passport", instead of jumping in and trying to help matters. "If I am only for myself, who am I, and if not now, - when?" Tikkun Olam, Strategist, Tikkun Olam! Whether or not you are religious, it doesn't matter! Morally and empirically, we are our brothers' keepers!

[Am Yisrael]

Democracy has developed from the trial and error of developing society over a few millenium. It is quite simply adapting to improve society as a whole. Although some Immigrants to Israel from Russia tend to arrive with little or wrong understanding of Democracy, they tend to embrace the idea due to large freedom of opinion. Nearly all of the younger generation Russian Immigrants to Israel absorb into the democratic structure of Israel without any problems.

The older generations tend to aknowledge the advantages of democracy as opposed to communist rule but tend to appreciate communism as their heritage. This does not mean to say that they try and impose communism on the Israeli society like a fascist anarchist, but tend to see it as a history. Many Russian Jews suffered at the hand of communism in Russia, which in turn means that most of them immigrating tend to see communism as an evil regime.

Strategist's remark on Israels democratic diplomacy has no thought into the topic. Over the years Israel has elected a large amount of leaders all of different nature. As a whole I think Israeli society tend to be towards a "leftist" government. But due to continiung wars and fighting, there is a far right government in power. The Israeli population isnt stupid you know!!! There will continue to be a democratic Israel because the Israeli people know thats how they are going to survive by teaming up with the Western world to survive attacks from the dictatorship arab nations.

[strategist]

Strategist's remark on Israels democratic diplomacy has no thought into the topic.


Gee, thanks.

So how many years did you live in Israel?

Anyone who has ever lived in a true Western liberal democracy should be shocked by the antics that occur in Israel.



But the point is that at one time or another, the Western Democracies were also built out of people who never lived in one. None of the Democracies have originated as such: they all evolved into it, they all learned to be it!


True, but the evolution occured over hundreds of years (UK, US, France, Benelux, Scandinavia).

Or they gained the tradition from the UK (Canada, Australia, New Zealand).

Or they had the tradition enforced by a greater power (Germany, Japan, Italy).

Or they saw that the West had succeeded under liberal democracy and adopted that philosophy at the first opportunity (Spain, Portugal, most of E.Europe, scattered countries around the world).


Whatever your views of the Israeli version of democracy, it does fit the definition of one, and it does function as one. Are there problems?


Instability. The only way governments can exist is through complex coalitions, which give minor parties an inordinate proportion of the power.

How else do you think that the country supports thousands upon thousands of yeshiva students who have no inclination to make a contribution to the state?

Those Israelis who work have to pay massive taxes, partly due to military requirements, but equally due to the yeshiva students.



Sure! Show me one country where there are no problems, Democracy or otherwise!


I know of New Zealand which a few years ago adopted a mixed-member PR system, half of 120 MPs elected from regions, the other half from party lists.

The idea was to increase the influence of smaller parties. Previously, with the electorate system providing 100% of MPs, smaller parties had no opportunity to have a say.

The result was, IMO, a disaster. A very stable democracy now has unstable coalitions, arguing, bickering, etc. (all very characteristic of the Israeli system, but not quite as bad).



However, you are gleefully stating that "thank G-d I have a foreign passport", instead of jumping in and trying to help matters.


I realized a long time ago that my ability to change the world, and Israel for that matter is very very limited.

If Israel is continuing on this path to suicide, how can I change it, and why should I change it?

Hamas is right. Israel will be destroyed by 2025, but Hamas will not be responsible for it, no matter how much they try.

Israeli politicians and extremists will be fully responsible.



Although some Immigrants to Israel from Russia tend to arrive with little or wrong understanding of Democracy, they tend to embrace the idea due to large freedom of opinion. Nearly all of the younger generation Russian Immigrants to Israel absorb into the democratic structure of Israel without any problems.


I don't agree. Russians are voting with three main patterns:

1. Voting for the strong man.

2. Voting for the opposition.

3. Voting for minority parties.

(OK, yes, I realize that these three options cover the entire spectrum of Israeli politics, but let me explain my reasoning.)

1. Voting for the strong man is negative because they associate strong man with authority, which is a remnant of totalitarianism that they experienced in Russia. This therefore is a remnant of anti-democractic tradition.

2. Voting for the opposition, because change is good, no matter who the party in power is. This results in irrational swings in the vote contributing to instability, and is indicative of poor understanding of democracy (thinking it is a free for all rather than a mature attempt to achieve positive results).

3. Voting for minority parties, such as Israel B'Aliya (which is focused on the rights of Russian immigrants only rather than the whole of society, therefore having more in common with Shas than other parties), the nationalist parties (which mostly have extremist policies and hence are anti-democratic).



which in turn means that most of them immigrating tend to see communism as an evil regime.


That is plain wrong. The vast majority of Russian immigrants are economic immigrants.



As a whole I think Israeli society tend to be towards a "leftist" government. But due to continiung wars and fighting, there is a far right government in power.


I think that at times of conflict, what is needed is more domestic stability rather than more domestic extremism.

This trend to extremism, for whatever reason, is what will destroy Israel.



The Israeli population isnt stupid you know!!!


You're right, and 80+ percent of Israelis believe themselves to be of "above average" intelligence, so it must be true. (From a Maariv poll of a few years ago.)



There will continue to be a democratic Israel because the Israeli people know thats how they are going to survive by teaming up with the Western world to survive attacks from the dictatorship arab nations.


Israel is rapidly turning to extremism. The facts on the ground show that Israelis are NOT respecting democracy.

[Mediocrates]

I'm not sure what any of that means. Extremism to you sounds like it runs only in one direction a-la fascism. Though it appears politically to run in the other direction as well. At any rate. What you describe is not extremism nor does simple a plethora of multiparty voting imply such. I think there are what, a hundred significant parties in India. So what is it you're really talking about?

[elke]

Originally posted by strategist
True, but the evolution occured over hundreds of years (UK, US, France, Benelux, Scandinavia).

Or they gained the tradition from the UK (Canada, Australia, New Zealand).

Or they had the tradition enforced by a greater power (Germany, Japan, Italy).

Or they saw that the West had succeeded under liberal democracy and adopted that philosophy at the first opportunity (Spain, Portugal, most of E.Europe, scattered countries around the world).

True: that was in fact, precisely my point. The fact of the matter is that everyone has to learn to be a citizen of a Democratic country. They have to learn to look ahead, they have to learn to take responsibility for their own decisions, they have to learn to distinguish fact from fiction.

This takes time, regardless of how a country becomes democratic. There are elements specific to the culture of the country itself, that need to be taken into account. There are elements that can only be learned via trial and error technique. All this must be considered and cannot be resolved overnight. To think that the democratic process works properly in the Eastern Europe, for example, is ludicrous! They haven't even achieved the level Israel has achieved - not because they can't, but because it hasn't been as long since they became democratic.

Instability. The only way governments can exist is through complex coalitions, which give minor parties an inordinate proportion of the power.

Very true. Instability is a major problem in the Israeli system. It will have to be resolved. So?

How else do you think that the country supports thousands upon thousands of yeshiva students who have no inclination to make a contribution to the state?

Those Israelis who work have to pay massive taxes, partly due to military requirements, but equally due to the yeshiva students.

Same as above.

I know of New Zealand which a few years ago adopted a mixed-member PR system, half of 120 MPs elected from regions, the other half from party lists.

The idea was to increase the influence of smaller parties. Previously, with the electorate system providing 100% of MPs, smaller parties had no opportunity to have a say.

The result was, IMO, a disaster. A very stable democracy now has unstable coalitions, arguing, bickering, etc. (all very characteristic of the Israeli system, but not quite as bad).

Trial and error, Strategist - trial and error. It is not up to you and me to decide the New Zealand system of government (unless, that is, that's the foreign passport you have, of course ;)). If the New Zealanders are satisfied with this system, then who are we to argue with them?

I realized a long time ago that my ability to change the world, and Israel for that matter is very very limited.

If Israel is continuing on this path to suicide, how can I change it, and why should I change it?

Hamas is right. Israel will be destroyed by 2025, but Hamas will not be responsible for it, no matter how much they try.

Israeli politicians and extremists will be fully responsible.

But Strategist, if everyone thought this way, people would still live in caves - if that! It wasn't this attitude that created Democracy in the first place. You can't just wash your hands of the responsibility you have!

I don't agree. Russians are voting with three main patterns:

1. Voting for the strong man.

2. Voting for the opposition.

3. Voting for minority parties.

(OK, yes, I realize that these three options cover the entire spectrum of Israeli politics, but let me explain my reasoning.)

1. Voting for the strong man is negative because they associate strong man with authority, which is a remnant of totalitarianism that they experienced in Russia. This therefore is a remnant of anti-democractic tradition.

2. Voting for the opposition, because change is good, no matter who the party in power is. This results in irrational swings in the vote contributing to instability, and is indicative of poor understanding of democracy (thinking it is a free for all rather than a mature attempt to achieve positive results).

3. Voting for minority parties, such as Israel B'Aliya (which is focused on the rights of Russian immigrants only rather than the whole of society, therefore having more in common with Shas than other parties), the nationalist parties (which mostly have extremist policies and hence are anti-democratic).

What do you expect them to vote for? And how do you know that this is what goes through their minds? Who did you vote for, and why?

That is plain wrong. The vast majority of Russian immigrants are economic immigrants.

No, Strategist: on this point you are plain wrong. I am in a position to know this one, being a Russian immigrant myself.

Most of us have left because of rampant antisemitism in FSU, and inability to fulfill our ambition because of it. Most of us who went to Israel upon emigration, did so because we wanted to be a part of building the Israeli society. Others, like my parents for example, who went to the US - did so because of economic reasons, namely, unemployment in certain professions at the time. However, even those of us who ended up in other countries, have our hearts and souls in Israel. We do what we can to help her financially, emotionally, politically - and some of us have plans to make aliya.

I realize that some Russian immigrants have not behaved appropriately. I also realize that sometimes this is due to inexperience with democracy and freedom, and others - plain mean-spiritedness. The Russian immigrants are not some perfect group of people, of course. However, mostly they are people like you, who do have Israel's best interest at heart.

I think that at times of conflict, what is needed is more domestic stability rather than more domestic extremism.

This trend to extremism, for whatever reason, is what will destroy Israel.

That's true. However, again - look at my signature. That was one of the most apt observations that Abba Eban has made.

You're right, and 80+ percent of Israelis believe themselves to be of "above average" intelligence, so it must be true. (From a Maariv poll of a few years ago.)

Israel is rapidly turning to extremism. The facts on the ground show that Israelis are NOT respecting democracy.

Look, the fact of the matter is that it's not "above-average" intelligence that's required for a successful democracy. Regardless of whether most Israelis are or aren't better than average, that's not what is important.

On what are you basing your assumption that Israelis are NOT respecting democracy?

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by strategist
Gee, thanks.

hmm.. maybe that statement was a bit harsh. :( sorry.

So how many years did you live in Israel?.

As a child I lived in Israel, my father is an Israeli immigrant, as are most of my family.

Anyone who has ever lived in a true Western liberal democracy should be shocked by the antics that occur in Israel.

What do you mean when discussing "antics"?
hmm.. really im not shocked by anything that goes on with Israels diplomacy. Im more shocked at how Western Democracies neglect the corrupt Palestinian Authority and continue acting as if it is still a democracy.



Hamas is right. Israel will be destroyed by 2025, but Hamas will not be responsible for it, no matter how much they try.

Israeli politicians and extremists will be fully responsible.

No country thought Israel would survive through the last 50 odd years. What makes you so sure that Israel will come to its own destruction so easily? and in terms of being "destroyed", do you think that the whole population will suffer so dramtically from a break up in the government? Personally I think Israel should deal with enemys of the state before tackling internal issues.

That is plain wrong. The vast majority of Russian immigrants are economic immigrants.

I agree with Elkas reply to this statement!


I think that at times of conflict, what is needed is more domestic stability rather than more domestic extremism.

Yes I agree, but Israel cant tackle both the Intifada and domestic problems at once. So it looks like domestic problems must wait!

This trend to extremism, for whatever reason, is what will destroy Israel.


Hey!! I know who you are!! your that Nostradamus dude right? ;)

[Micah]

A man cannot fight a war when his feet refuse to go along with him.

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by Micah
A man cannot fight a war when his feet refuse to go along with him.

I like that comment :) very nice! but from Israeli history, it has been shown that in dire threating situations, the Israeli people suddenly becomes "united"! I suppose the reason for that is due to the fact that most Israelis feel their loss at battle would mean the loss of "everything". I strongy agree that most countries follow the above statement however and it is essential that internal feuds are calm to enable better coorperation within the country.

[Mediocrates]

I've read what plans the Likud have for the PA and what they think Israel will look like as a result.

I've read what labor plans for the PA but what I don't see is what they see in Israel as a result. Everyone talks about 'peace' but isn't that a little like talking about sex or the weather? What does the contingent envisage as the shape of Israel as a result?

I'm not ready to say tha old school zionism is dead in Israel but between the fear and anger of the right and the seeming apathy of the left I'm getting more convinced of it each day.

So lemme hear from ya! What you say you harbingers of a-peace-ment? What does Israel look like in the end?

[keren7]

Originally posted by Miriam
Politicans are not a special human species bred in closed laboratories by divine forces. In state systems known as democracies, on the long run they can do only as much as their happy or unfortunate subjects are willing to tolerate. Where are the Israeli citizens in this?

It would be very easy to lead Israel if there were no killer arabs around us. But they are, so what could the best leader do for the people of Israel in order to resume a normal life?

Lets see:

1. Give the pals everything they want, in other words, we can either let ourselves be annihilated by the pals or, we can commit mass suicide.

2. We could killed them, but that is genocide.

3. We can fight them, which we do now but obviously it doesn't work.

4. Change Arafat, change Sharon, change the next PM and the next pal leader.........

[Mediocrates]

Labor Free-Fall Continues; Mitzna Deflects
Accusations
Could Shinui become Israel's second-largest party?
Public opinion polls released today, five days
before the national elections, show that this is a
genuine possibility. A Dahaf Institute poll published
in Yediot Acharonot shows the Labor party sinking
to an all-time low of 18-19 seats in the Knesset,
with Shinui receiving 16-17. In the previous
election four years ago, Labor received 26 seats,
while Shinui received 6.

A poll conducted for today's Maariv shows that
Labor will receive 18 and Shinui - 15, with the
Likud leading the race by a significant margin and
winning between 32 to 34 seats in the Knesset.
Labor Party leader Amram Mitzna attempted to
stem the tide by calling for the completion by
Sunday of the investigation against his alleged
bribe-taking. "If any hint of a crime committed by
me is uncovered," he said, "I will immediately draw
the appropriate conclusions."

Other poll results are as follows: Shas, 11 seats;
Meretz, 7-8; National Union, 7-8; United Torah
Judaism, 4-5; National Religious Party, 4-5; Yisrael
B'Aliya, 3-4; Am Echad, 3-4; Arab lists, 9-10.
Herut is still giving pollsters a hard time, with two
surveys showing the party close to but not passing
the minimum threshold. A poll by the
Geocartographic Institute, however, gives Herut
2-3 seats. The party features Baruch Marzel, a
former leader of the outlawed Kach party, running
in its number two slot, following MK Michael
Kleiner.

The Aleh Yarok (Green Leaf) party, which
supports the legalization of marijuana and
prostitution, is also teetering on the edge of
obtaining the minimum amount of votes required to
enter the Knesset. The uncertainty regarding these
parties may be due to the fact that potential voters
are not revealing their true preference to pollsters.

The poll results indicate that Sharon will be able to
form a coalition of right-wing and religious parties,
forming a block of 64-65 seats in the Knesset.
However, he could also form a center-left coalition
with Labor, Shinui, and Am Echad, of up to 68
seats. In such a case, however, he faces the
possible danger of a split in his own Likud party.

Pollsters are well aware that most of their work
may go up in smoke, however. One of their most
important findings indicates that only 61% of the
voting public is certain about their voting choice,
while close to 25% are still deciding between two
parties. Another 15% of the eligible voting public
remains entirely undecided, saying they have "no
idea" for which party to vote.

http://www.arutzsheva.com/news.php3?id=37723

[strategist]

Sharon worried he might not be able to set up
stable gov't

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is worried that he might not be able to set up a stable government after the elections, associates of the prime minister said Saturday.

Publicly, Sharon continues to express confidence in his ability to set up a broad coalition in which either Labor or Shinui would constitute the left flank. Privately, however, he is worried that this might not be possible, given Labor's pledge not to join a unity government led by him and Shinui's consistent refusal to sit in a government with the ultra-Orthodox parties.

While a narrow right-wing government would be possible, Sharon believes that it would lead to an economic and diplomatic crisis and consequent early elections. Such a government would make it impossible for him to advance the diplomatic program he favors - acceptance of U.S. President George Bush's vision of a Palestinian state - and would therefore also probably result in the U.S. refusing Israel's request for $12 billion in special aid, his associates said. And without this assistance - $4 billion in defense aid and $8 billion in loan guarantees - the economic crisis will become even more severe, they said.

The Likud has therefore decided on a new slogan for the final days of the campaign that ends this Tuesday: "A strong Mahal or yet another election," using the three-letter Hebrew word that symbolizes Likud on the ballot slips.

The Likud believes that in order to set up a stable government, it must have at least 35 to 36 seats. The latest polls published on Friday, however, showed it receiving only 32 to 33 seats. Likud Minister Roni Milo predicted Saturday that this level of support will mean new elections within 12 to 18 months.

"There is no argument that we will have a blocking majority [that would prevent Labor Chairman Amram Mitzna from forming a government]," one senior Likud official said yesterday. "It is clear that the Likud will win a technical victory. The Likud's problem is how to translate that technical victory into [victory on] the parliamentary playing field."

"The option of a [narrow] right-wing government ... is not a good one," he continued. "We see enormous dangers in it. Therefore, I am forced to say that we don't see a government [after the elections]."

"I have spoken about this with Sharon, and what I am telling you absolutely reflects his views," the official added.

The Likud has been particularly concerned by the steady flight of voters from Labor to Shinui over the past few weeks, which could even result in the latter beating out Labor for the title of the second-largest Knesset faction. Because Shinui's growing strength frightens religious voters, party sources explained, many are now switching their support from Likud to Shas, which they perceive as the best counterweight to the militantly anti-religious Shinui.


So, we are going to have 4 major parties, of which Labor and Likud hate each other, and Shinui and Shas hate each other.

Beit hamikdash was destroyed due to sinat heynam.

[keren7]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by strategist
So, we are going to have 4 major parties, of which Labor and Likud hate each other, and Shinui and Shas hate each other.

Beit hamikdash was destroyed due to sinat heynam.

The only party that can rule Israel these days, is Likud. Pitty that we have such a stupid law regarding the creation of a government right after elections. This way we'll go to the polls every 2 years or so. If it was up to me I'll change the laws first and most.

[strategist]

If it was up to me I'll change the laws first and most.


I am confused about this situation. There are 2 possible circumstances effecting inability to change the election laws (in a meaningful way):

1. The small parties are too powerful, and too easily block electoral reform, so perpetuating constant instability and the need for constant elections.

2. The politicians in the major parties are major risk takers, and/or prefer anarchy to stability, and/or like the amount of news Israeli domestic politics generate, keeping them in the headlines.

Either way, I give Israel till 2025.

BTW, apparently Sharon is predicting elections within 12 to 18 months again.

To credit my wife, she pointed out that Israel is such a rich country, we could afford monthly elections. ;)

[Mediocrates]

No what they need are voting wards or districts so that votes are tallied by district. This way winners in each ward represent the the majority vote for all the voters in that ward. This would remove the influence of tiny parties because the totals would be normalized across a wider group of people.

[Jako]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=256023


Half a democracy

By Gideon Levy




What sort of democracy is this, if exactly half the state's residents don't benefit from it? Indeed, can the term "democratic" be applied to a state in which many of the residents live under a military regime or are deprived of civil rights? Can there be democracy without equality, with a lengthy occupation and with foreign workers who have no rights? And what about the racism?

The storm that was engendered by the leak of a document to the press by an attorney in the Tel Aviv District Attorney's Office, Liora Glatt-Berkovich, and by the police interrogation, under caution to boot, of Ha'aretz correspondent Baruch Kra was perfectly justified. More and more cracks are becoming apparent in the democratic regime. Kra's interrogation was an ominous portent, the all-out assault on attorney Glatt-Berkovich is terrifying, and the conduct of the attorney-general, Elyakim Rubinstein, is disgraceful.

We must not lightly let these phenomena pass by. We must not forget that the entire structure is wobbly. Once Israel became an occupying state, it ceased to be a democracy. There is no such thing: Israel's claims about its democratic character are empty boasts. Just as there is no such thing as a partial pregnancy, there is no such thing as a partial democracy, either.

No democracy exists only as far as a particular territorial line within the country, and no democracy is reserved exclusively for a particular religion or nationality. In a truly democratic regime, everyone enjoys his freedoms and rights in equal measure. That is not the case in Israel.

More than 10 million people live between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River, in the state and in its occupied territories. The separation between the occupied areas and the state is anachronistic: Israel has existed for far more years with the occupation than without it, and the territories are an integral part of it, with all this entails. Some 3.5 million Palestinians have been living under a brutal, rigorous military occupation for well over three decades. Surely no one will try to claim that they are free. Another 300,000 to 400,000 foreign workers live among us and are also without basic rights. They, too, are not part of a democracy.

Nor can anyone serious maintain that the 1.3 million Arabs who live in Israel are equal citizens. With the exception of the right to vote and the right to stand for office, which was almost taken from some of their representatives this month, there is hardly a sphere in which they can be said to be citizens of a democracy. They are discriminated against in every realm of life, and they are excluded from the democratic public discourse. One of their newspapers was recently shut down for two years by the interior minister and a mass movement of the Arab population is under threat of being outlawed. "Democracy" doesn't seem to be the appropriate word here, either.

Even some of the new immigrants do not share in Israeli democracy. A soldier in the Israel Defense Forces named Michael Gorkin cannot become an Israeli citizen only because he is not a Jew. The father of an immigrant from Ethiopia named Yisraeli Isham could not attend his daughter's wedding because the Interior Ministry cast doubt on his Jewishness. A regime that treats its people in this way cannot be called democratic.

What's left? Democracy exists only for the state's (proven) Jewish residents. That is, for about 5.3 million people, half of the 10.6 million people who live here. They are the only intended beneficiaries of the rule of law, freedom of expression, civic freedoms, equality before the law and a fair and just legal system.

Cracks have appeared in this democracy of late. The rule of law has been breached, the corruption scandals and the way they have been treated are raising serious questions, the government is trying to intimidate the press, social justice is a lost cause and equality, too, is far from being a fact.

We have to fight with all our might to get rid of all these ills, but, above all, the lying impression that we are democratic must be quashed. It is impossible to be both occupiers and democrats; there is no such thing as enlightened exploiters and racists. Those are unresolvable contradictions, flagrant oxymorons. Even if propriety is restored and the attorney-general no longer betrays his trust, the Supreme Court becomes a beacon of justice, the Knesset enacts only just laws and the government rules according to the law, the conditions for democracy will not yet exist in Israel.

On the day after tomorrow, when tanks guard the voters in Yitzhar and other West Bank settlements, when curfew protects the election process in the Jewish settlement in Hebron, when thousands of soldiers will defend the roads on which the polling stations will be transported and when foreign workers with no rights will sweep our streets, we should remember that this is half a democracy, no more.


and another one:

http://www.counterpunch.org/cook01252003.html

Israeli Democracy: Fact or Fiction?

Fascinating reading, both of them. I realize how much I actually BELIEVED CNN, ABC, CBS, etc when they would mention Israel's "democracy". Looks like the cat's out of the bag.

Jako

[minusthejihad]

It feels good when you read that, doesn't it Jako? Cummon, tell us the truth. You feel so good inside when you read about how horrible Israel is, don't you?

[danholo]

Yeah... "Fascinating"....

IMO when every person of that nationality can vote, it is a democracy. In Israel every national is free to vote.

[Mediocrates]

Mr. Levy is certainly entitled to his opinion. I suspect he has a somewhat utopian point of view and or looks on western 'democracy' as he calls it, as something that does not fit with his almost quaint "little 'c' communism" (as opposed to Big 'C' Communism).

We must not forget too, that this is an opinion article and not a statement of law or even fact.

I would ask Mr. Levy though how he interprets the rise of Shinui which is fairly close to an Israeli version of a (secular) Libertarian party. Moreover they aggressively seek out the Arab vote and a key platform of their party is the dissolution of religious parties in politics. They court the gay vote, the secular vote, the peace vote, the arab vote.

My last point is that Jews as much as anyone are guilty of confusing process with policy, law with the effects of law. For example, was the US no longer a legitimate country because of Jim Crow or was that something simply to get rid of? Similarly is Israel destined to exist only in Platonic perfection or not at all?

I would wonder how Mr. Jako's Canada would fare if it had two choices: perfection or extinction?

[keren7]

Either way, I give Israel till 2025.

Meaning?

BTW, apparently Sharon is predicting elections within 12 to 18 months again .

There will have to be changes in our forming of government or else, it will simply not work.


[QUOTE]To credit my wife, she pointed out that Israel is such a rich country, we could afford monthly elections.

Israel could be a very rich country if all the billions of dollars wouldn't have to go to the army. We now have hungry people here, a phenomen I have never seen before. Very sad.

That's why I'm totally fed up with the pals for putting us in this situation.

[strategist]

Israel could be a very rich country if all the billions of dollars wouldn't have to go to the army.


It could be even richer if:

1) Billions didn't go to yeshiva students and their 10 kid families.

2) Billions could be earned if the yeshiva students put their brains to work on producing economic value.

3) Taxes could then be cut, secular Israeli tax payers might not be so angry, and might be more motivated to help the country.

[Mediocrates]

Israel has one of the lowest employment participation rates in the economic life of countries in the developed world. That's an awkward sentence but it boils down to too many people not working and not having to. There appear to be far too many incentives not to work which is why 300,000 illegal aliens are allowed to work in the grey economy. There are several things that Israel should do including stripping down their welfare net and cracking down on illegal workers. Work isn't noble, it's necessary.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
There appear to be far too many incentives not to work which is why 300,000 illegal aliens are allowed to work in the grey economy.

Are there really 300,000 illegal aliens? If so, wow. 300,000 out of a population of 5 million is enormous. I assume there would be yet more legal aliens -- how many of those?

[strategist]

Originally posted by cerulean
Are there really 300,000 illegal aliens? If so, wow. 300,000 out of a population of 5 million is enormous. I assume there would be yet more legal aliens -- how many of those?



Don't know the exact number, but look at how many Palestinians used to work in Israel. Something like 1 million of them. Now they have no work (and are suffering accordingly), Israel has a third as many foreign workers as former Palestinian workers so much work cannot be done, and money is flowing overseas (i.e. wages that foreign workers earn).

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by cerulean
Are there really 300,000 illegal aliens? If so, wow. 300,000 out of a population of 5 million is enormous. I assume there would be yet more legal aliens -- how many of those?


That's what I heard on the radio. Now this includes foreign workers who were brought in but who's visas have expired and so are technically illegal. When the Oslo war slammed shut the borders Israel was left with about 135,000 low skill jobs to fill over and above their current levels. Many of these were brough in from SE Asia and Africa. But since times are tough all over and particularly in those places, those people prefer to work illegally and send whatever money they can, back home.

[Israelforever]

Any democracy has the responsibility to protect it's citizens, by any means necessary. If the people in power are not protecting their citizens as the labor and all the other arab loving self hating parties were doing, then as with any democracy, they loose their powers. Thank G-d for Israel's right. Try being liberal when innocent Jew's in their own land our not being killed, and do not have to be protected from evil on a daily basis. Until then I'll
be as far right as possible until the enemy the arab people occupying Israel's land are made to accept peace by any means necessary. In fact I was disappointed that Herut did not win
any seats in the election. While I will pray that if we need them they will get elected in the next election.
For Now,
Sign This Petition, Say No To An Arab State in Israel.
http://www.zoa.org/event14a.htm
http://www.zoa.org/petition/gbook.php

Shalom
Jason Rocklin

[PeteRoy]

Originally posted by strategist
If you look at how many empires/regimes have come to an end in the past, then many time it was due to internal factors as much (if not more than) as external factors.

The Roman Empire came to an end due to internal weaknesses, which were capitalized on by their barbarian neighbors.

The British Empire became overstretched and prone to European civil war.

The Ottoman Empire became complacent and backed the wrong horse in WWI.

Israel is starting to give this sign. If the Israelis want to have a state, then they have to stabilize themselves first.

Israeli politics disgusts me. The right are becoming even more extreme (a common factor in empires/regimes that are close to demise). The left seem to be weak and leaderless (also a common factor).

What is worse though, both sides are engaging in extraordinarily dirty political tactics. Both sides are corrupt. Both sides are divided. Neither side has any real vision of the future.

Who can lead Israel today? There is not a single politician who can do the job today.

And what is worse, we even have mafia mobsters like Ivet Liberman running as serious candidates.

This seems to me the perfect recipe for Israel's destruction.

Well, I'm glad I have a foreign passport.

I think you don't know Israeli politics as much as you think you do.
It is redicilous to say Israel is coming to an end because the right wing is strong. In the previous elections (1999) the Likud had 19 seats and that was before of the intifada, now (2003) they got 38 seats. The fact is that the Israeli people gone right is because of the continues fights with the Palestinians. It is certain that if there will be a year of peace the left wing parties will regain their power.

This has nothing to do with Israel coming to an end.

[strategist]

Israelforever,

A democracy is obligated not to kill innocent civilians, children, etc. in spite of what it is itself suffering.

It is illegal under international law and human rights conventions.

Torture is also illegal, but Israel frequently tortures prisoners.

A real democracy must respect human rights and international law. No arguing needed here.

A democracy must also defend itself from internal rot, like your filthy "arab loving self hating parties" comment, which it is not doing.



PeteRoy,

I suggest that you read the post before responding.

I do not suggest that Israel will be destroyed because the right is coming to power, at least not in the way you suggest.

Read the post! Doh!

[TheyAre]

Hey Roy, how's it going.

Strategist, your posts are laughable. Israel is not an empire or a regime. Its a democratic state. Everyone can vote. Look at the election returns 9 - 10 seats to the "Arab lists." That's more than several of the orthodox Jewish parties. And here, listening to you, I was thinking that only Jews could vote?

A real democracy has nothing to do with how it treats its enemies. These ridiculous moral rules applied to Israel but not anyone else are hilarious in the extreme. Israel can't go into the WB because its "occupation," but Palestinians should have the "right" to go into Israel and work (a.k.a. kill Jews).

The saying used to go "Two Israelis can create Three factions." So what? You don't think that Israel hasn't gone through the same political environment its going through now? The Prime Ministership was juggled every 18 months or something during the 1980s.

Israel is not a secular state in the traditional way. It is the Jewish State. People in Israel are not so petty and power-hungry as to threaten the existence of the Jewish state in some idiotic grab for personal power that would not last once Israel was "destroyed."

A democracy is obligated to defend the right of its citizens to practice that democracy. A democracy is not obligated to hand "innocent" civilians food, aid, and withheld money like Israel does to the PA, but they do it anyway.

Its illegal to deliberately kill civilians in any conflict, but you're strangely silent when it comes to the deliberate targeting and murder of Jews by Palestinian terrorists. Please, prove to me where the IDF deliberately killed civilians. You can't.

Torture is illegal, but Syria tortured and dismembered Israeli prisoners in 1973. Torture is illegal, but the Palestinians do it regularly to "collaborators" and during their own internal strife. No mention of that in your posts, is there?

A real democracy respects the human rights of its citizens. Point out to me where Israel hasn't. You can't. The fact that Arab parties will be in the Knesset disproves your ridiculous theories.

Maybe you should read my friend Roy's post. Since he just participated in his 1st election, I suspect he knows a bit more than you, no matter how much you spew about how "experienced" you are.


I give Israel until a World Government is founded.

[strategist]

Since he just participated in his 1st election, I suspect he knows a bit more than you,



Praise the lord, the boy is an expert. Going into an idiot-proof ballot box has made him an expert. Will miracles never cease to occur? The very act of placing a ballot into an envelope and into a box has granted him magical abilities, to know what no-one else can know. Praise the lord!!!

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by strategist
A democracy is obligated not to kill innocent civilians, children, etc. in spite of what it is itself suffering.

A democracy is a means to transfer power from one government to the next w/o civil war, mob violence and tanks at the presidential palace. Anything else you're talking about is what any state, tyranny, republic, monarchy or whatnot does in times of peace and relative stability. Martial law is martial law and elected government whether those officials are Thomas Jefferson or Robert Mugabe, is largely besides the point.

It is illegal under international law and human rights conventions.

No not really, see prior answer. A 'democracy' is not required to destroy itself because it has a crime problem.

Torture is also illegal, but Israel frequently tortures prisoners.

This is another place where specifying your terms is necessary. For example, here on this board we read people claiming that everything from civil war to nasty words to evil thoughts are all terrorism. We read that the only difference between terrorism and self defence is that terrorism is smugly justified and self defence is oppression. Or racism or antihumanism or something equally stupid.

A real democracy must respect human rights and international law. No arguing needed here.[/q]

You could sleep on the streets of Madrid unmolested during the time of Franco. Do you mean that kind of democracy?

A democracy must also defend itself from internal rot, like your filthy "arab loving self hating parties" comment, which it is not doing.[/B]


I don't even know what you're implying here. See in isolation everything is pretty much meaningless. If you saw a newsreport that showed a phalanx of cops smashing down a door and dragging out a gaggle of speed freaks and giving them all a beat down in the street you might automatically start yowling that The Man is outta control. But what if they were cooking up crank in the basement and nearly blew the building off it's foundation?

[keren7]

Originally posted by strategist

It is illegal under international law and human rights conventions.

Torture is also illegal, but Israel frequently tortures prisoners.

How many arab prisoners disappeared in Israel without a trace or showed up with missing limbs or any other signs of turture? Can you name one please?

However, I can name few Israeli POW's. Ron Arad is missing since the 80's. Rumours had it that he was captured alive and kept in different arab countries. Ben, Omar, Avi and Tannenbaum-apparently are being kept in Lebanon, Syria?! no one knows of their fate, do you? so what are you mumbling away here about Israel? you don't know our country, all you probably know is from some arab papers and sites. I, however, know the arabs because I live among them. Do you know what can happen to me if, by mistake, I should wonder into a pal town? I bet you have no idea, if I'm right, let me know and I'll tell you.

I do not suggest that Israel will be destroyed because the right is coming to power, at least not in the way you suggest .

Israel can only survive if the center right comes to power. We have no time for the left at this stage with the pals barking at the gate.

[strategist]

How many arab prisoners disappeared in Israel without a trace or showed up with missing limbs or any other signs of turture? Can you name one please?


Do you actually believe this??!!!

Are you seriously suggesting that Arab prisoners never disappeared after being captured by Israel?

How about Sharon's massacre of 273 Egyptian prisoners in 1956?

How about the bus 300 affair in which the Shabak killed 2 Palestinians after they had been captured?

How about the killing of maybe 1000 Egyptian prisoners in 1967?

[Mediocrates]

Are those events or processes?

[strategist]

Are those events or processes?


Wise guy huh? ;)

Don't get me started on "events" and "processes". I ain't called strategist for nothing.

[Mediocrates]

Here's my point.


We have cowboy cops right here in America. We have people who steal military hardware, DEA agents who deal drugs, Rampar gang crime squad members (Los Angeles Police Dept) who beat kill perjure and so on. We had some cops who shot an unarmed suspect 19 times. We had a suspect brought in to the precinct and beaten brutalized and sodomized with a broom.

That's what courts are for. First you determine that a crime was committed and then you determine what glitch lead up to it. I tend to think that if these are 'events' and not 'processes' then they are coincident command failures. And if they are procedural then they are legislative in nature. change the laws.

But in the wider sense that is precisely the point of terrorism, the gradual erosion of civilized standards. It does become a self fulfilling prophesy, yes?

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by strategist
Wise guy huh? ;)

Don't get me started on "events" and "processes". I ain't called strategist for nothing. Well now, this certainly raises the issue of,

(1) Who the hell calls "you" strategist, and

(2) who the hell are "they", that we should consider their ruminations upon your character?

[keren7]

Originally posted by strategist
[B]Do you actually believe this??!!!

Are you seriously suggesting that Arab prisoners never disappeared after being captured by Israel?
That's right, arab prisoners didn't disappear. Name arab POW's in Israel, because I don't know any.

How about Sharon's massacre of 273 Egyptian prisoners in 1956?

How about it? Tell me more about it!

How about the bus 300 affair in which the Shabak killed 2 Palestinians after they had been captured?

The shabak killed the pals and admitted to it. The arabs didn't disappear, did they? I didn't say that IDF or the shabak never used misconduct, what I said is that no arabs disappear in israel nor do they show up with missing limbs.

How about the killing of maybe 1000 Egyptian prisoners in 1967?

Soldiers die in war, hello! have you never heard about this occurance? IDF lost 3,300 soldiers in the Yom Kippur war, where are your tears now?

[strategist]

Keren,

I think that you are trying to justify the murder of unarmed POWs.

All of the dead Arabs I mentioned were murdered after combat had ended.

Is that acceptable? Apparently, you think it is.

If that is the case, why should the Arabs think twice about killing unarmed Israeli POWs?

You are holding the Arabs to a higher standard than the Israelis.

You are saying that it OK for Israelis to shoot unarmed POWs, but its not OK for Arabs to shoot unarmed POWs.

Then you give the smart alek comment: Soldiers died in wars, hello!

What a nasty smart alek you are.

Are you such a small person that you wake in the morning and say to yourself, "I am a tall person, I am a tall person"?



MichaelC,

Forgotten to take your Prozac this morning? Go now and take 2, get a mug of hot coffee, and lie down for a couple of hours. You shouldn't get so worked up. Life is too short. Relax!

[strategist]

That's what courts are for. First you determine that a crime was committed and then you determine what glitch lead up to it... And if they are procedural then they are legislative in nature. change the laws.


This is another problem with Israeli democracy. Lack of impartiality of the courts, and the inability of the government to make sensible decisions.

For example, a court this week decided that Arafat was liable to be sued by Egged due to terror on buses. That is such a political decision that it shocks me to think about it. Surely this counts as judicial interference in foreign affairs, or the sort of thing that shouldn't be happening?

What else? OK, how about the fact that Palestinian terrorists get sentenced to very long prison terms (one guy got 27 years this week), while Israelis who kill unarmed (or disarmed) Palestinians get a few weeks or months? That includes settlers and soldiers. Isn't that the sign of a biased judiciary?

Imagine the uproar if the same happened in a PA court. Opps, almost forgot there for a moment, the monumental fuss made when Zeevi's murderers were sentenced to lenient prison terms and conditions. So, again, Israel is holding the Palestinians to a higher standard than they are holding themselves.

People here are conveniently forgetting that while about 700 Israelis have been killed during this Intifada, about 2000 Palestinians have been killed.

If we are angry about the 700, how angry are they about the 2000? Not allowing them the same grief and outrage as we have it holding them to a higher standard.



I tend to think that if these are 'events' and not 'processes' then they are coincident command failures.


MichaelC tried to diminsh my user name "strategist". But, I am a strategist, using system dynamics modeling to examine problems in business.

System dynamics is a particularly interesting tool. It starts at the effect and works outwards by looking at causes. But, it goes on and on until the causes of causes are established, and a closed system is constructed.

Perhaps you should apply this sort of thinking to the causes of terror. I have and it is a very interesting task.

It will show that 'events' are the direct consequences of 'processes' or 'mechanisms'.

For example, a very simple closed loop model of terror would suggest that occupation (a process) is the cause of a terrorist attack (an event).

"Coincident command failures" are events caused by a process, that process being the diminshed view of the humanity of the enemy.

[keren7]

Originally posted by strategist
[B]Keren,

[QUOTE]I think that you are trying to justify the murder of unarmed POWs.

I think that you twist my words around. Nobody killed in Israel POW's. If you think they did tell me when and proove it.

Then you give the smart alek comment: Soldiers died in wars, hello!

Yes, soldiers die in war, and the arabs died as jews died. Which part can't you comprehend?

What a nasty smart alek you are .

I'm nasty? how about the arabs stop starting wars and then no one will die. So far Israel didn't initiate any wars with them.

Are you such a small person that you wake in the morning and say to yourself, "I am a tall person, I am a tall person"?

What's that got to do with anything? the arabs are killers and you blame the Israelis?

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by strategist
MichaelC,

Forgotten to take your Prozac this morning? Go now and take 2, get a mug of hot coffee, and lie down for a couple of hours. You shouldn't get so worked up. Life is too short. Relax!
Your sarcasm is as WEAK as everything else you offer at this site.
I am particularly amused at your presentation of credentials as though that would surely quiet your critics.

[strategist]

Originally posted by MichaelC
Your sarcasm is as WEAK as everything else you offer at this site.
I am particularly amused at your presentation of credentials as though that would surely quiet your critics.



Blah blah blah :rolleyes:

[strategist]

I'm nasty? how about the arabs stop starting wars and then no one will die. So far Israel didn't initiate any wars with them.


LOL :rolleyes:

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by strategist
Blah blah blah :rolleyes: NOW, I am particularly amused at this intellectual statement you have made which, essentially, sums up your contribution here at this site.

[strategist]

Originally posted by MichaelC
NOW, I am particularly amused at this intellectual statement you have made which, essentially, sums up your contribution here at this site.



Have you read your own posts recently (at least on this thread)?

Not exactly enthrallingly well-thought out responses to my posts, don't you think?

If you want to debate intelligently, then please offer more than:


Well now, this certainly raises the issue of,

(1) Who the hell calls "you" strategist, and

(2) who the hell are "they", that we should consider their ruminations upon your character?

...

Your sarcasm is as WEAK as everything else you offer at this site.
I am particularly amused at your presentation of credentials as though that would surely quiet your critics.

...

NOW, I am particularly amused at this intellectual statement you have made which, essentially, sums up your contribution here at this site.


What a boorish little man you are. :rolleyes:

[keren7]

Originally posted by strategist
LOL :rolleyes:

Do you find it funny that the arabs are the cause for the troubles of the century, because it doesn't amuse me at all.

[ayesha]

what an empty discussion this has turned into...

[strategist]

Originally posted by keren7
Do you find it funny that the arabs are the cause for the troubles of the century, because it doesn't amuse me at all.



What a nasty bigoted little person you are.

Only the etiquette of this board (with which I don't necessarily agree) prevents me from telling you what I really think of you.

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by strategist
What a nasty bigoted little person you are.

Only the etiquette of this board (with which I don't necessarily agree) prevents me from telling you what I really think of you.

You should be thankful for that etiquette, which keeps you shielded from what everyone really thinks of you as well.

[strategist]

Originally posted by ayesha
what an empty discussion this has turned into...



The quality of debate on this forum is in general particularly low. People are stuck in their hate modes and think that they have a free hand to be bigots, hatemongers, pedantic, boorish, etc.

There is another board on which I participate, and at least people there like to debate. Here, if you disagree with someone, it is easier to be petty than to debate properly.

[Mediocrates]

I was thinking that it varies from the usual mutual admiration society chock full of urls slapped in from rant-o-blogs and indymedia. Why I just dropped the 'literate' board, Utne because the folders are 3/4ths spam and trolls. I'm pretty close to dropping 2 others because they openly permit speech would get you arrested in a few countries. I think its also important, and this is a personal observation to ignore the fights that are meaningless. It may be interesting and harmless to worry about who's sources for the official Ottoman census of 1880 are better, the name of Arafat's uncle and so on, but to me that's all it is.

None of this will ever be decided by 'facts'. You're just beating yourself on the rocks if you try.

Moreover if you simply list all of the things one hates about Israel or Jews or zionism generally and keep listing them (it's been about 5 weeks since the last and 40 millonth utterance of Deir Yassin, I think, woopee for our side.)


And that's what I think most people think of when they think of 'quality' which is mistaken. Moreover all the takeos of the world think that if you simply repeat "Israel is Evil" enough times life will be perfect. Alas.

Don't complain about the water, grab a sandbag.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by strategist
Have you read your own posts recently (at least on this thread)?

Not exactly enthrallingly well-thought out responses to my posts, don't you think?

If you want to debate intelligently, then please offer more than:





What a boorish little man you are. :rolleyes: Well, in this particular exchange, I have to consider the source. You're a pathetic intellectual opponet and it does not inspire much opposition. Your words actually speak for themselves. I just can't help tweaking you. You make of yourself such an easy target with your idiotic rejoinders. I'll leave you now, to your own self abuse.

[strategist]

Originally posted by MichaelC
Well, in this particular exchange, I have to consider the source. You're a pathetic intellectual opponet and it does not inspire much opposition. Your words actually speak for themselves. I just can't help tweaking you. You make of yourself such an easy target with your idiotic rejoinders. I'll leave you now, to your own self abuse.



Blah blah blah :D



MichaelC
MichaelC is currently
Offline. 02-06-2003 11:07 PM This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]

:D :D

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by strategist
Blah blah blah :D





:D :D Well, Strategist put me on his ignore list. This is a compliment, No?

[keren7]

Originally posted by ayesha
what an empty discussion this has turned into...

What's empty about it?

[strategist]

Originally posted by keren7
What's empty about it?




Is this a serious question? :confused: :rolleyes:

[Miriam]

Originally posted by strategist

The quality of debate on this forum is in general particularly low. People are stuck in their hate modes and think that they have a free hand to be bigots, hatemongers, pedantic, boorish, etc.

There is another board on which I participate, and at least people there like to debate. Like this, you mean? (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30902) You are the "Golem", IIRC?

[keren7]

Originally posted by strategist
Is this a serious question? :confused: :rolleyes:

Yes, what's empty about it? so far I only received clever questions to my questions, not very hard to get out of a response isn't it?

I live in the Middle East so nothing is empty as far as I'm concerned when it comes to the conflict here.

[strategist]

Originally posted by Miriam
Like this, you mean? (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30902) You are the "Golem", IIRC?



As someone who doesn't go with the flow on both boards, I can say that the other board is far more accepting of dissent, and at least the people there are mostly well meaning, which is something I doubt about this forum.

And I would suggest that chosing a bad debate as an example really doesn't prove anything.

[strategist]

Yes, what's empty about it? so far I only received clever questions to my questions, not very hard to get out of a response isn't it?


I suggest that you consider your questions a little better.

There is a saying in English: "ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer."

Hardly the most intellectual approach, but you get the general idea.

[minusthejihad]

Your cocky and snooty remarks really do you justice!

[TheyAre]

Typical arrogance. We're all boorish and horrible debaters because we don't agree with him, but when we point this out, we're just being mean. Poor strategist.

I post on more boards than this one, and I am happy to be known as a very good debater on most of them.

[strategist]

I post on more boards than this one, and I am happy to be known as a very good debater on most of them.


I think the core of my complaint is that my attempts to debate are met with bigoted, petty responses. In case you hadn't noticed.

[humus_sapiens]

Originally posted by strategist
I think the core of my complaint is that my attempts to debate are met with bigoted, petty responses. In case you hadn't noticed.

In case you hadn't notice, Strategist: there are no ideal democracies on the planet.
But when it comes to Israel, it is the only state where normal growth problems (and the permanent war imposed on it by its neighboors) become "signs of demise" or moreover, reasons of destruction? Why single it out?

Could it be too much Arab propaganda in Eurostan? Sign of its demise, maybe...

[HaSakin]

Originally posted by strategist
If you look at how many empires/regimes have come to an end in the past, then many time it was due to internal factors as much (if not more than) as external factors.

The Roman Empire came to an end due to internal weaknesses, which were capitalized on by their barbarian neighbors.

The British Empire became overstretched and prone to European civil war.

The Ottoman Empire became complacent and backed the wrong horse in WWI.

Israel is starting to give this sign. If the Israelis want to have a state, then they have to stabilize themselves first.

Israeli politics disgusts me. The right are becoming even more extreme (a common factor in empires/regimes that are close to demise). The left seem to be weak and leaderless (also a common factor).

What is worse though, both sides are engaging in extraordinarily dirty political tactics. Both sides are corrupt. Both sides are divided. Neither side has any real vision of the future.

Who can lead Israel today? There is not a single politician who can do the job today.

And what is worse, we even have mafia mobsters like Ivet Liberman running as serious candidates.

This seems to me the perfect recipe for Israel's destruction.

Well, I'm glad I have a foreign passport.

[HaSakin]

Well, when it comes to corruption, I think that Israel is no worse than any European country, and this includes Great Britain. As for the U.S., which candidate received the most votes, the man in the White House today, or his opponent?

Who was it that said, some 2,000 years ago in Israel, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone". Things must have been pretty corrupt then.

[earth.observer]

Well, when it comes to corruption, I think that Israel is no worse than any European country


I have a friend whose son is severly disabled. They send the child to a special school, which has many high school volunteer helpers. These volunteers are treated like gods. They are given weekends in Eilat with jeep trips in the desert, and many other benefits. These chuparim cost a fortune, which seems strange for volunteers to get (so many so often). What has happened is that the board that looks after the school has been infiltrated by the father of one of these high school volunteers, and he is diverting donated money for the trips. Nothing can be done about it since he holds a senior position, and donors are getting extremely unwilling to give more. Basically, the disabled children are given the lowest priority. This is very typical of the sort of corruption in Israel today. You hear very often about secretaries of NGO branches earning NIS 40,000 per month. These are people who know people and share their salaries with the person who appointed them.