A self-portrait of the Palestinians

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
lol
israel didn't destroy buildings of Hamas but buildings of the pa, remember?
But i guess all palestinians are terrorists, so who cares?

No, not all Palestinians are terrorists. According to the Palestinians themselves, just the vast majority of them want to mass murder Israelis. Not all.

According to the Jerusalem Media and Communication Center (http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2001/no43.htm) (A Palestinian institution, btw) here is a self-described portrait of the true face of the Palestinian people, to whom Israel is being asked to hand over a huge chunk of the Jewish homeland:

1. a majority (67.5%) supports the military operations as a Palestinian proper response under the current conditions .

2. A majority of Palestinian public (64%) still support the continuation of suicide (martyrdom) operations inside Israel.

3. Regarding the end result of the current Intifada, 48.8% said the ultimate goal of the current Intifada is to end occupation on the basis of UN Security Council resolution 242 and the establishment of the Palestinian state while 39.6% believe that the end goal of the Intifada is to liberate all of historic Palestine.

* * *

So, even though we've heard a bunch of theories from some people on this forum, telling us about the infinite kindness and concern for justice among the Palestinians, the Palestinians themselves tell a different story: 2/3 of the Palestinians support the suicide mass murder of innocent Jewish teens in shopping malls and pizza shops, while 4 out of every 10 Palestinians are fighting not only for a division of land, but for ethnic cleansing of the Jews from the entire state of Israel.

So here you've heard it first hand, from the Palestinians themselves.

[takeo]

Well actually untill recently a majority of israeli supported the occupation and oppression in the occupied territories, yet that doesn't mean that one have the right to blow them to peaces.
the palestinians have suffered 35 long years (and some even longer) from israeli policies aimed against the palestinian presence in palestine, so that can explain this hard and sometimes unreasonable opinions (as well as the suicide-attacks can explain the support for fascists like Sharon or bibi in Israel).
So you have to agree with me that Arafat represents the moderate face of palestine.
Yet even in this hard times, according to your statistics, a majority of palestinians agree to give up 3 quarters of their original lands. Of course they favour resistance against israeli oppression, they should, yet the fact that many as well support attacks against innocent civilians (as a lot of israeli favor attacks against innocent palestinians) is a result of the hardships they have lived trough(don't forget that a lot more palestinians died than israeli, and many more lost friends, got hurt or saw their houses and jobs taken away from them)
Peace will have to heal the wounds. However if you start implementing measures as proposed by negev 100% will favor the total destruction of Israel (and not only among palestinians).

[NewsGuy]

"Well actually untill recently a majority of israeli supported the occupation and oppression in the occupied territories,"

Where did you get this distorted information from? The majority of Israelis has always supported peace with the Arabs, even till today. Although some Israelis dream of sending the palestinians back to their first Palestinians state of Jordan, no Israeli, so far as I know, has aspired to occupation. Only self-defense and a negotiated political peace agreement.



"so that can explain this hard and sometimes unreasonable opinions (as well as the suicide-attacks can explain the support for fascists like Sharon or bibi in Israel)."

This sounds like more excuses to justify Arab massacres of Jews, by blaming the victim, not the murderer.



"So you have to agree with me that Arafat represents the moderate face of palestine."

No, not at all. Arafat supports, incites, trains, and arms the Arab mass murderers. He is a sub-human mass murderer of Jewish children, nothing more.



"Yet even in this hard times, according to your statistics, a majority of palestinians agree to give up 3 quarters of their original lands."

You must not have read this correctly. According to the Palestinians temselves, 4 out of every 10 Palestinians are fighting not only for a division of land, but for ethnic cleansing of the Jews from the entire state of Israel.

btw - how do you think they would like to accomplish this miraculous disappearance of the Jews? By saying hocus pocus? By rubbing the lantern and making a wish from the Genie in Tales of Arabian Nights? What is your guess?

[cerulean]

One thing that puzzled me (well, not terribly much, considering) is how Arabs could on one hand exult in the destruction of the Twin Towers, while at the same time blaming Israel and Mossad agents for its occurrence.

Although bin Laden and his associates have since admitted doing it, I'm not sure Arab thinking has caught up. In any event, this is an example of the type of "logic" that has to be worked with in the Middle East.

[watcher]

You said, “Well actually untill recently a majority of israeli supported the occupation and oppression in the occupied territories, yet that doesn't mean that one have the right to blow them to peaces.
the palestinians have suffered 35 long years (and some even longer) from israeli policies aimed against the palestinian presence in palestine, so that can explain this hard and sometimes unreasonable opinions (as well as the suicide-attacks can explain the support for fascists like Sharon or bibi in Israel)”

What “palestinian” presence in “palestine”? Understand that propaganda doesn’t go anywhere in here. Face it the past is part of the present, there is no avoiding the Truth. They have all their lands to go to but all their lands want the total destruction of Israel so they can finally rightfully claim the land of Israel. Many countries tried but Israel remains to this day, and always back in the land of Israel.
.
You said, “So you have to agree with me that Arafat represents the moderate face of palestine.
Yet even in this hard times, according to your statistics, a majority of palestinians agree to give up 3 quarters of their original lands. Of course they favour resistance against israeli oppression, they should, yet the fact that many as well support attacks against innocent civilians (as a lot of israeli favor attacks against innocent palestinians) is a result of the hardships they have lived trough(don't forget that a lot more palestinians died than israeli, and many more lost friends, got hurt or saw their houses and jobs taken away from them)”

Consider the targets on both sides... Innocent civilians in Israel killed vs. all the bloodthirsty terrorists killed in “palestine”. Difficult to find the innocent “palestinians”, if any were killed it was never intentional.

Finally you said, “Peace will have to heal the wounds. However if you start implementing measures as proposed by negev 100% will favor the total destruction of Israel (and not only among palestinians).”

All efforts to acheive peace was rejected by the “palestinian” gov’t in favor of escalation of terrorism and war even the most radical proposal in favor for “palestine” was rejected. When the label “palestine” was accepted peace was apparently not its role.

[takeo]

Bin Laden isn't a Palestinian but a Saoudi, nor is he supported by the majority of Arabs.

"Where did you get this distorted information from? The majority of Israelis has always supported peace with the Arabs, even till today. Although some Israelis dream of sending the palestinians back to their first Palestinians state of Jordan, no Israeli, so far as I know, has aspired to occupation. Only self-defense and a negotiated political peace agreement. "

That is bs, you aren't israeli but you support occupation, and you even favor etnic cleansing of palestinians from the westbank and gaza, and i believe many Israeli share your opinion, at least a majority voted for Likud and even more extremist parties who opposed to any peace-plan which would make an end to occupation. The leader of shas even called for the physical extermination of all Palestinians.




"This sounds like more excuses to justify Arab massacres of Jews, by blaming the victim, not the murderer. "

who is victim and who is murderer? In this case more palestinians have been murdered by israel than vice versa.





"No, not at all. Arafat supports, incites, trains, and arms the Arab mass murderers. He is a sub-human mass murderer of Jewish children, nothing more. "

Did you take any drugs? this is the most distorted portrait of arafat i ever heard, have you actually any fact to proove this, besides of course the office of Sharon or the mossad? if you said "arafat doesn't do enough to stop the terrorists operating on his soil" i could still somehow understand your point. Arafat represents the part of palestinian society that want peace with israel(48.8% in your source, i believe it is more), but not on exclusively israeli conditions.





"You must not have read this correctly. According to the Palestinians temselves, 4 out of every 10 Palestinians are fighting not only for a division of land, but for ethnic cleansing of the Jews from the entire state of Israel. "

well, according to you 49% actually recognised israel in its borders

[cerulean]

Of course, bin Laden is not Palestinian. His father was from Yemen, and his mother from Syria, and he was born in Saudi Arabia. That doesn't stop him from being a hero to many residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

[NewsGuy]

"That is bs, you aren't israeli but you support occupation, and you even favor etnic cleansing of palestinians from the westbank and gaza, and i believe many Israeli share your opinion"

I don't support occupation. I support a resolution of the conflict.

But I do wish for the Palestinians to leave Israel and go back to their first Palestinian state of Jordan, where they can live freely and have a government as corrupt as they want, have a high rate of illiteracy and Islamic extremism as they want, without any Israelis being killed. That would be the perfect solution, IMHO, although sadly, I realize that this preferred scenario is unlikely to happen.

That's why I support a peace agreement that will result in a second Palestinian state that is totally separated from Israel with a defensible international border to stop Palestinians terrorists from inflitrating Israel.



"who is victim and who is murderer? In this case more palestinians have been murdered by israel than vice versa."

So what? The Palestinians are the mass murderers and the Israeli children being murdered in cold blood as they sit at a pizza store are the victims. don't know why this reality is so hard for you to grasp.



" this is the most distorted portrait of arafat i ever heard, have you actually any fact to proove this, besides of course the office of Sharon or the mossad?"

Of course there is tons of proof. 50 tons of heavy weapons bought by Arafat to mass murder Israeli citizens.

Also, Tanzim murderers like Marwan Barghouti are PA officials, who admit freely that they are responsible for suicide bombings.

Moreoever, offices of the Hamas stand proudly in every PA-controlled neighborhood.

Then, to top it all off, Arafat refuses to arrest the murderers of Rehavam Zeevi, while Palestinian guards let Hamas and Hizbullah terrorists walk out of prison by the dozen.

[takeo]

"So what? The Palestinians are the mass murderers and the Israeli children being murdered in cold blood as they sit at a pizza store are the victims. don't know why this reality is so hard for you to grasp. "

Israeli soldiers murdered in cold blood children throwing stones at tanks(that's how the escalation began), Israeli bombardments have made many innocent civilians( as well as the bombardments in libanon, like in the 90's, killed 100's of civilians). THOSE people haven't murdered children in pizza stores, but likely their survivors will become suicide-killers. Many more innocent people were murdered by israel than by the palestinians or Libanese(in fact almost all Israeli victims in libanese were belonging to the occupation force). So it makes no sence to say that Palestinians are murderers and Israeli their victims.


"Of course there is tons of proof. 50 tons of heavy weapons bought by Arafat to mass murder Israeli citizens. "

Israel still hasn't showed a single proof for this and refuses to cooperate with a un-inquiry. There are indications that the whole thing was a set-up (the Romanian boat was hired for israeli government purposes on earlier occations). besides one can't commit suicide operations with heavy weapons and anti-tank rockets.

"Also, Tanzim murderers like Marwan Barghouti are PA officials, who admit freely that they are responsible for suicide bombings. "

really? where did you read this? show me the interview in which he said this.


""Then, to top it all off, Arafat refuses to arrest the murderers of Rehavam Zeevi, while Palestinian guards let Hamas and Hizbullah terrorists walk out of prison by the dozen."

He did arrest them, but don't want to hand them over to the israeli. And the jails were full of hamas-terrorists, untill israel decided to bomb the prisons!!!!!!!!!

[watcher]

If it were only children throwing rocks at tanks then there wouldn't be any problem but that wasn't the case... Hopefully newsguy has the pictures of the newsreels of the palestinian aggression upon their generous landowners.

Perhaps your right about the weapons... there probably was a mass worldwide hallucination that caused the world to believe those weapons existed so "palestine" should be allowed to have these non-existant items and all those bloodthirsty ones can gather together to tap on some warheads to prove their point.

Also who has access to most weapons known to exist in "palestine" but the guards and police officers so when many of these weapons are used against Israel one tends to look towards the ones trained to use them... but only the targets the weapons came from.

[Flame]

Medina, Islam's second holiest city, was originally a Jewish "settlement"
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/medina.html

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/meaning.html

http://www.zoa.org/pressrel/20020204b.htm
http://www.zoa.org/pubs/arafat-hatewords.htm
---------------------
Portions of selection of articles, reprinted by permission of the publisher. Joan Peters has written and
lectured widely on the Middle East, Central America, and the Soviet Union. She has contributed to
Harper's, Commentary, The New Republic, The New Leader, and other periodicals, and was a White
House consultant on the Middle East in 1977.

YOU WILL FIND THE FOLLOWING ARTICLES :::::: http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/mythology.html

Politically motivated mythology of "Palestine"

After the destruction of the Temple, the Jews fled to Arabia

Medina, Islam's second holiest city, was originally a Jewish "settlement"

Continuous Jewish Presence in the "Holy Land"

Religious Persecution of Jews by Arabs

Throwing Stones at Jews is based in Ancient Islamic Ritual

Palestine was inhabited by a mixed population

Palestine, a land virtually laid waste with little population

Bareness and oppression of Palestine due to feudal system of taxes by absentee Arab Landowners

The Myth of Palestinian Nationalism, narrowly defined, anti-Semitism

The proposed 1938 & 2001 partitions of Western Palestine & The British Policy of Appeasement

Palestinian Refugees, invited to leave in 1948

How many Palestinians Refugees? inflating the numbers

Arab-Jewish Refugees, the other Middle Eastern Refugee problem

Exchange of Populations

Why are Palestinian Refugees treated differently than all other refugees in the world?

Palestinian Refugees, unlike other refugees in the world, were denied resettlement opportunities, for political reasons

[takeo]

indeed the name of this site Eretzyisroel.org says enough about the source. but still some very interesting questions.
here some more accurate and fact-related questions and answers:
http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
indeed the name of this site Eretzyisroel.org says enough about the source. but still some very interesting questions.
here some more accurate and fact-related questions and answers:
http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

More like comdey hour at the Protocols of the Elders of Zion club.

[victot]

Israeli soldiers murdered in cold blood children throwing stones at tanks

when i went with a tour group to israel, one of the rabbi guys who was there who i know from montreal was in the israeli army, and he said that the limitations that they placed on when an israeli soldier could fire real bullets at arabs were absolutely ridiculous.
he said that if
1)arabs were throwing rocks at the soldiers, no real bullets
2)arabs shooting at soldiers, no real bullets
3)arabs throwing bombs at israeli soldiers, no real bullets.

he said that the only time the israeli soldiers were alowed to fire real bullets at arabs, was if they were stabbing the israeli soldiers, and if the arab guy had already stabbed him once, and was in between rasing his had from the wound to stab a secong time, THAT was when you could shoot real bullets at an attacking arab.
heh, i know that was an exageration, (he's a cool guy) but I SWEAR to you, with all my heart and soul, from everything that i know and believe in, THE ISRAELI SOLDIERS DID NOT GO AROUND FIRING REAL BULLETS AT CHILDREN WHO WERE THROWING ROCKS AT TANKS!!
maybe there was a mistake or 2, but i guarantee that the israeli soldiers were not gun-ho with shooting.
ummm, there is a lof of misinformation about the situation in the middle east, but 1 thing for sure that is true, for all people who are very critical of israel, 1 thing they israel did not do, was shoot at children who were throwing rocks at tanks.
the children who got shot, it was tragic, they were in the way of shooting initialized by a real threat, (like gunshots) please believe that.

[takeo]

Well, how come that you could see on television children trowing rocks to soldiers and soldiers replying with bullets, which actually killed two children. And did you remember the child hiding behind a garbage can with his father? He could only have been hit on purpose. (besides nor he nor his father were armed). And all those 100's of demonstraters, how did they die (only a few Israeli soldiers died in those clashes)?

[NewsGuy]

The reason you always see Palestinian children throwing stones at Israeli tanks is that the Palestinians know full well that Israel does not fire on unarmed civlians. That's why they are not afraid. If they thought for a moment that they would be shot, then they would never get near an Israeli tank.

As usual, Israel's civility and generosity in not shooting those which are trying to kill IDF soldiers, is what the Arabs understand to be a sign of weakness.

[victot]

Well, how come that you could see on television children trowing rocks to soldiers and soldiers replying with bullets, which actually killed two children. And did you remember the child hiding behind a garbage can with his father? He could only have been hit on purpose. (besides nor he nor his father were armed). And all those 100's of demonstraters, how did they die (only a few Israeli soldiers died in those clashes)?

Believe me, for the vast most part, the israeli soldiers only used real bullets when they were being fired at, or bombed. i don't know how to explain it anymore than that. i could look stuff up on the net, and get 800 sources which talk about how refined they were, and 800 sources which say how unnecessairly brutal they were... (so im not gonna)
this is one thing though, that i just know. israel has one of the most highly trained, disciplined armies in the world, and it isn't in their interest AT ALL to kill rock-throwing arab children...
it's more than that though;
i dont know what you think goes through the head of an armed, well protected soldier who shoots at rock-throwing children, BUT IT JUST ISN'T PART OF THE SOUL OF ISRAEL. it just doesn't work that way. I wish i could transfer the feeling inside of me of what israel is, to all the good-souled yet israel-hating arabs out there... but one thing israel does not do, is kill non-threatening children. i think all violent/war actions that israel has taken in it's history, there is a specific spirit behind; whether that spirit is moral or not is perhaps debatable; but killing non-threatening children is not part of that spirit, it just isn't.

The child with his father hiding behind the garbage can...
i've heard several variations on what probably happenned there. i don't know where you got the information that he could only have been killed on purpose... i absolutely can't believe that he was specificly targeted.
again, my reasons being:
1) i truly don't believe too many israeli people/soliders are morally capable of committing the act of targeting and shooting an unarmed, obviously terrorised child with his father, and
2)it doesnt make sense; why in the middle of a gun battle would the soldiers target the boy and his father?
he was killed in cross fire. to my knowledge, there is no way to know what truly happenned that day, but i would bet my life that it was an accident.

and finally, i think that the phenomina of more palestinians dying in the clashes was becasue the israeli soliders were better organised and fortified, and when the shooting began in those streets, that wasn't a time in which the israeli soldiers were going to do nothing.
Under the assumption of all things being equal, l really dont think that israel should be morally blamed for what happenned in the clashes.

[takeo]

Well, you may have the feeling that israeli soldiers were not morally capable of doing such a thing, wich i would like to believe, yet the fact is that many children died of israeli bullets...
and on all the pictures you could see on television children were very rarely armed with fireweapons. And there were also television pictures were you could clearly see demonstrations ( i forgot when or where exactly) without any firearms on palestinian site (in fact those began to appear only after the first weeks), still israeli soldiers shot at them, with REAL bullets.
I guess they have learned not to shoot at unarmed civilians, yet the reality is sometimes different, and probably those soldiers had the same idea about Palestinians as some people on this board and/or felt treatened. Another fact is that Israel has never conducted an investigation to this events, so those soldiers had nothing to fear.
the remarcable thing about this war is that it is really mediatisised, no cruel detail is left aside. This is mostly a disadvantage for Israel, as the pictures of tanks rolling into occupied areas attacked by desperate palestinians with only a gun or a stone or a child being killed by soldiers, doesn't make Israel look very sympathic. on the other hand we could also see how two israeli soldiers were being lynched.

[watcher]

Originally posted by takeo
Well, you may have the feeling that israeli soldiers were not morally capable of doing such a thing, wich i would like to believe, yet the fact is that many children died of israeli bullets...
and on all the pictures you could see on television children were very rarely armed with fireweapons. And there were also television pictures were you could clearly see demonstrations ( i forgot when or where exactly) without any firearms on palestinian site (in fact those began to appear only after the first weeks), still israeli soldiers shot at them, with REAL bullets.
I guess they have learned not to shoot at unarmed civilians, yet the reality is sometimes different, and probably those soldiers had the same idea about Palestinians as some people on this board and/or felt treatened. Another fact is that Israel has never conducted an investigation to this events, so those soldiers had nothing to fear.
the remarcable thing about this war is that it is really mediatisised, no cruel detail is left aside.

If you looked closer they had weapons. Sure they were crude weapons at first... but that doesn’t mean they’re not deadly and obviously they were intended to kill or seriously wound. Israel had no intentions to kill until they were finally forced to defend themselves, even then Israel was lenient. Israel never wanted this only to live in peace at home... It just becomes difficult when there are murderers living as your neighbors.

Originally posted by takeo
This is mostly a disadvantage for Israel, as the pictures of tanks rolling into occupied areas attacked by desperate palestinians with only a gun or a stone or a child being killed by soldiers, doesn't make Israel look very sympathic. on the other hand we could also see how two israeli soldiers were being lynched.

Israel has been at a disadvantage throughout the ages having a different set of standards towards them than the rest of the world, so it’s no real surprise if world opinion can be disfavorable when we stop being targets and start trying to defend ourselves.

[takeo]

Israel is indeed treated with a different standard than the rest of the world, a BETTER one. If any other country would occupy other regions and ignore UN-resolutions it would have been treated as Iraq and FORCED to leave the territories.
Well if you occupy the house of your neighbour, you can't expect him to be friendly...
And stones are no weapon according to me that legitimise to shoot someone.

[watcher]

Originally posted by takeo
Israel is indeed treated with a different standard than the rest of the world, a BETTER one. If any other country would occupy other regions and ignore UN-resolutions it would have been treated as Iraq and FORCED to leave the territories.
Well if you occupy the house of your neighbour, you can't expect him to be friendly...
And stones are no weapon according to me that legitimise to shoot someone.

According to the UN resolutions you suggested it is "palestine" who are ignoring the UN resolutions by denying Israels right to exist. Also by the UN resolutions Israel has the right to defend with any means necessary against such terrorist activities that prevents Israel from reestablishing within the land of Israel the only place in the world truly home.

And stones are deadly when used in slings with complete intent to kill or maim.

[takeo]

"According to the UN resolutions you suggested it is "palestine" who are ignoring the UN resolutions by denying Israels right to exist. "

Most palestinians accept Israel's right to exist, many Israeli don't accept that Israel has to retreat from "territories occupied in 1967".


"Also by the UN resolutions Israel has the right to defend with any means necessary against such terrorist activities that prevents Israel from reestablishing within the land of Israel the only place in the world truly home. "

Israel has the right to defend Israel within its recognised borders(by the UN), not Gaza or Westbank! The Palestinians have the right to fight the israeli aggression is this territories.

[watcher]

Originally posted by takeo
Most palestinians accept Israel's right to exist, many Israeli don't accept that Israel has to retreat from "territories occupied in 1967".

"palestine" is the label occupying Israel sure they lived in the land that was renamed "palestine" but it was not intended by Israel that should've happened let alone that they keep the land. They never had any desire to claim a state of "palestine" until recently not a thousands of years or hundreds of years but after Israel returned and only after Israel returned.

Originally posted by takeo
Israel has the right to defend Israel within its recognised borders(by the UN), not Gaza or Westbank! The Palestinians have the right to fight the israeli aggression is this territories.

Israel has the right to defend itself in ALL it's land, including fighting terrorism coming from the "palestinian" occupied territories until they straighten themselves up or leave to their rightful homelands. Enough of their lawlessness!

[takeo]

I think that people who lived there for 2000 years have the right to live there and don't have to accept to be ruled by the Jewish people. this country doesn't belong exclusively to the Jewish because they lived there 2000 years ago. Such idea is in clear contradiction to modern society and Western values. Both peoples have to share the land. In fact the occupation of the Westbank and Gaza is lawless, not only according to me but according to the whole world .

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo

Most palestinians accept Israel's right to exist, many Israeli don't accept that Israel has to retreat from "territories occupied in 1967".

What is your source for this false statement?

As we saw from the Palestinians themselves, 67% support suicide bombings of Israeli schoolchildren in shopping malls, and 4 out of 10 Palestinians are actively using violence to take over ALL of Israel, which there is only one way to accomplish, i.e., by genocide of the Jewish people in Israel.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Well, you may have the feeling that israeli soldiers were not morally capable of doing such a thing, wich i would like to believe, yet the fact is that many children died of israeli bullets...

First of all, not "many" children died from Israeli bullets.

In fact, there are certainly more Israeli children who have been intentionally targeted for mass murder by Palestinians. From the "good old days" of Arafat's PLO taking the kindergarden hostage and machine-gunning the schoolchildren in Kiryat Shmona, and including the suicide bombing at the dolphinarium and the thwarted suicide bomber in a supermarket just 2 days ago.

The policy of the Israeli army is a simple one: Avoid shooting at all costs, UNLESS there is immediate fear for the soldier's own life.

Again, I see you are spreading Arab propaganda about how stones are nothing. But the fact is that stonbes can kill. It was the method of execution throughout the ages.

But more than stones, the Palestinians have been fire-bombing Israeli soldiers and throwing grenades, and shooting machine guns at them from a crowd. No wonder why the IDF has shot back to defend itself.

As has been always the case, the Palestinians treat their own sons and daughters as worse than dogs, hiding behind women and children and using their own families as human shields. Maybe it is a Palestinian strategy for population control. I don;t know.

But it is the IDF's amazing restraint, and willingness to bear the high expense of precision weapons that has prevented many more deaths of Palestinian civilians.

Abd the pictures of Palestinian children throwing stones in front of an Israeli tank is not bravery at all. rather, it is absolute proof that that the Palestinians know the IDF will not shoot at them.

Now, compare thie IDF's trying to avoid any palestinian civilian casualties, with the Palestinian terrorists deliberate suicide mass murders of Israeli children at pizza shops, shopping malls, bus stops and supermarkets. Thatp;s the difference between the Israelis and the Islamic mass murderers you support and make excuses for.

[takeo]

4 out of 10

that means that 6 out of 10 believe Israel can exist, whitin its borders of course (that's why they still use violence, as Israel hasn't withdrawed ).
You know that i condamn the attacks on children and civilians from which side doesn't matter. Also here in Europe protesters use stones yet the police fires back with tear-gas or even just withdraws its position to avoid victims.
If Israel always uses the ultimate care to avoid innocent victims, how come that much more palestinian civilians died than Israeli, huh?
And i know that in the first months 100's of children under the age of 18 died because of israeli bullets. On television was seen that palestinians were trowing a stone to well-armed soldiers who immidiately replied with shooting, not with tear-gas or rubber-bullets.
I have seen on television tanks firing on palestinians throwing stones, who are very brave and do risk their life at many occasions. Of course they would like to have anti-tank granades to destroy this occupying tanks.(if i could help the palestinians i would give them anti-tank granades, can't be used for terrorism against innocent civilians but very effective against the occupying army). But they haven't that's why they use other methods.
If israel pays so muchattention to avoid innocent victims how come they shot today an unarmed man at a road-controll???

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
If israel pays so muchattention to avoid innocent victims how come they shot today an unarmed man at a road-controll???

I guess this question originates from the anti-Israel propaganda and disinformation you are accustomed to reading.

I suppose the news you read neglected to mention that the "unarmed" man was running like a madman in the middle of the night head on towards an Israeli outpost, shouting "Allahu Achbar," which is the classic prelude to Arab murder of Israelis. At that point they shot him.

You know what? Good for them. I would have done extactly the same in their place.

[NewsGuy]

What does the Israeli Foreign Ministry say about Palestinian children being killed?

Here goes:

Palestinian children are sent into the streets to throw rocks, firebombs, and even grenades at Israeli soldiers. They are taught in their schools and mosques to hate Israelis and Jews. They are urged by television advertisements to "drop your toys and take up arms". They are trained in special summer camps to be "holy warriors" in the Jihad against Israel and the Jews. It is no surprise then that they are among the casualties in the wake of violent clashes between Palestinian mobs and Israeli soldiers.

Israeli military positions are only located outside Palestinian population centers, far from the neighborhoods where children live. Yet, understanding the propaganda value of well-publicized child casualties to their political cause, the Palestinian Authority actively encourages the participation of children in violence. It has even taken to providing transportation for children to violent flashpoints. Armed Palestinian policemen and members of the Fatah militia, the Tanzim, often stand just behind this human shield of juvenile 'martyrs' and direct gunfire at Israeli soldiers, knowing they can further exploit the children's wounds for their propaganda purposes, should Israeli soldiers have to defend themselves.

The cynical use of children as pawns in the conflict begins in the Palestinian education system. Instead of educating children for peace, as Israel does, Palestinian textbooks (many of which have been recently published by the Palestinian Authority itself) openly teach hatred of Israel and Israelis. Palestinian education television programming glorifies martyrdom in the struggle against Israel. Palestinian children are trained in the use of firearms in summer camps and in youth groups. This manipulation of children, which has been extensively documented by the media, constitutes a reprehensible violation of all existing agreements between Israel and the Palestinians, as well as all international treaties meant to protect children in situations of armed conflict. The PA's heinous exploitation of children is both immoral and illegal.


It should be remembered, however, that Israeli children have also been victims of the violence. Too often they were not just 'incidental' victims of terrorist attacks, but rather the intended targets. They have been deliberately targeted and killed by Palestinian sniper fire and in machine-gun ambushes while riding in their parents' car. Palestinian roadside bombs have maimed children in school buses and Israeli children were bludgeoned and stoned to death by terrorists while hiking near their homes. Suicide bombers have murdered dozens of Israel youths at shopping malls, restaurants, bus stops and discos.

Although the suffering of every child is tragic and regretful, a basic difference exists between the two sides. Most Palestinian children have been hurt due to their direct participation in violent confrontations, while a minority of the casualties were the unfortunate result of crossfire or return fire directed towards terrorist targets. By contrast, Israeli child victims were the deliberate choice of their terrorist attackers - the intended and preferred target of the Palestinian bombers, snipers and gunmen.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Of course they would like to have anti-tank granades to destroy this occupying tanks.(if i could help the palestinians i would give them anti-tank granades, can't be used for terrorism against innocent civilians but very effective against the occupying army).

Right, takeo, you are a classic example of a self-hating Jew, who wants to cause the death of other Jews. Do you really mean this?

[takeo]

Yes, as this are not only Jews but part of a murderous and illegal policy. A criminal is a criminal, Jew or non-Jew doesn't matter.
However i would feel sorry for the family of the man in the tank, it is a war and he is serving in the army of an occupying state, in a war soldiers get killed, and a tank is really a legitimate target in every war. If he would be wise he could have refused duty in the foreig operations, as many others nowadays. In fact the real murderer of this man would be the one who decided israel would not withdraw, as the real murderer of a german soldier was not the resistance fighter who killed him but Hitler who provoked the war. This tanks are there to shoot at people in an area that doesn't belong to Israel, or in the best case to destroy buildings, so destroying a tank is an act of self-defense. I also believe if the palestinians had such weapons, the war would be over quickly, as too many losses in the israeli army will force the army to withdraw. And as i said with anti-tank weapons one can't attack Israel or launch terrorism.
Of course a peace-treaty would be 100 times better, but i don't see any sign yet...
about the information of the ministry: this is the usual propaganda, which is partly true and partly phantasy. (israeli posts are sometimes in the middle of a palestinian town, as in hebron, close to a school, and children are not used as a human shield, they are just mixed with adults, and there is no anti-israeli propaganda learned in the palestinian schools, as i saw a map of palestine which DIDN'T incorporate Israel, they are told however to stop the occupation with all means)
about the killed man: i don't have any acces to television now, i read it on the BBC website.

[watcher]

Don't you think it's wrong to start a war just for the sake of stealing land?? The Army is there to protect Israel from murderous thieves who occupy Israel that enjoys using terrorist attacks upon innocent civilians!

There is no treaty because all concessions have been refused by "palestine" even the most extreme final concession was refused by these hostile bloodthirsty squatters who use the name "palestine". Face it the "palestinian" authorities want war!

Sites concerning "palestinian" attrocities were more than just one but as usual there's a continuous suppression of their blatant hatred and violence in a campaign to allow the terrorism become acceptable in public eye because it's against Israel and not any other country!

As far as the man according to reports I saw he was unarmed but he was running to the soldiers screaming allah akbar which suicide bombers sometimes shout in their jihad attacks. What else can be done by these soldiers in the instant he went running at them?

[takeo]

"Don't you think it's wrong to start a war just for the sake of stealing land?? "

yes, it's wrong absolutely!!!


I have difficulties to imagine someone would do such a thing without any reason, as far as i heard he only shouted but didn't run.
palestinians are prepared to do concessions, the biggest concession of all they gave up on 3/4 of their original homeland(what has now become israel, again after 2000 years that's right but doesn't matter). yet the westbank, gaza and eastern Jerusalem are theirs and the un-resolutions must be observed (including the one stating all palestinian refugees can return to the place were they or their family were born if they come with peacefull intentions).

[watcher]

They can co back to their families that surround Israel! Israel is not "palestine" anymore to do such a cowardly act as using the name "palestine" to steal Israel is disgraceful!

[mayimnl]

The palestinians did never do any conssesion,when Israel was founded back in 1948, the arab states,including the local arabs attacked the young state of Israel in order to destroy it (is this a conssesion?), this would be the first war they started agains Israel and many would follow...
We all know the outcome , they last all the wars
The U.N. devided "palestine " in 1947 in an Arab part and a Jewish part, it wasn`t enough for the Arabs, they wanted it all,they could not tolerated a Jewish state in there midle then, and nothing has changed really.

Arafat had the change to make peace with Barak, a leader who was willing to go far,even talk about East _Jerusalem,a sensetive subject for many Israelisch,again it wasn`t enough, he refused,so can you please explain to me the conssesions they made?

[takeo]

yes watcher i know your idea, but it is really distorted that anyone can claim a land and expulse the owners of it because they supposedly lived there 2000 years ago and left.
Israel was very greedy too, it started the 1967-war and took even more land, and in 1949 it didn't hold to the UN-division-plan either but took it all. The world accepted this in 1949 because Arabs started the war, but in 1967 there was no way they would accept israel to start a war!
And in camp David the only things palestinians wanted was Israel to comply to the UN-resolutions and give up all the territories occupied in 1967 and leave the illegal colonies, yet this was too much asked.

[watcher]

It doesn't matter what the UN designated... They didn't exist when Israel was complete, so why should they divide Israel up now?

Israel never started any war but is just trying to move back home and live in peace. If there was a desire to have a state named "palestine" it would've been so long before Israel reestablished itself back home. But they had no right to do that, yet they greedily try to steal Israel cowardly under the name "palestine".

[takeo]

Israel started the war in 1967.
And palestinians had no state before 1949 because it was ruled by turkey and England, yet those countries let the palestinians mostly rule their own country as long as they received taxes, and certainly didn't chase them away or import Turks or english people to colonise it. And palestinians (and other Arab nations) fighted against the Turks (and the brittish) as well, for many years.

[watcher]

Sorry but Israel has no desire for war just wanting to finally live in peace after all the history of murderous attrocities committed against Israel.

If "palestinians" mostly rule their country then why does it want to take Israel other than to try to steal the land of Israel out of greed? "palestine" is nothing more than people from lands surrounding Israel living under that label "palestine"!

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by mayimnl
Arafat had the change to make peace with Barak, a leader who was willing to go far,even talk about East _Jerusalem,a sensetive subject for many Israelisch,again it wasn`t enough, he refused,so can you please explain to me the conssesions they made?

Mayimnl,

You are exactly right.

What wasn't enough for Arafat was that the peace plan did not call for the total destruction of Israel, and so Arafat needed to reject the plan immediately, and start to work on the genocide of the Jews in other ways.

Hence the mass murders that were sanctioned by Arafat, and the present situation.

[L@mplighterM]

The following is an excerpt of an essay written in 1988, only a couple of years before the murder of Rabbi Kahane by an Arab terrorist, Egyptian-born El Sayyid Nosair, who not only was convicted of the murder but also of conspiracy in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.


Dear World, why did the Arabs - the Palestinians - massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967? And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots in 1936-39? Was it because of Arab upset over 1967? And when you, World, proposed a U.N. Partition Plan in 1947 that would have created a Palestinian State alongside a tiny Israel and the Arabs cried and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews - was that upset stomach caused by the aggression of 1967? And, by the way, dear world, why did we not hear your cry of upset then?

[victot]

Israel started the war in 1967.

that it isnt true...

i just studied this in school just the last week or so.

my teacher said the war started because the soviets made a false intelligence report to the syrians that israeli troops were massing on their border.
actually, he said there was a number of reasons of how syria came to this conclusion, but it is known to not have been true.

israel told jordan king's hussein, not to attack israel, or else israel would attack jordan.

My teacher said Nasser felt compelled to act against israel because his star was on the wein from in 1966...

here i got this from the jordan government website:
http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/his_periods3.html


"By the spring of 1967, the situation had become extremely intense. On May 16, Nasser shocked the world by asking the United Nations to withdraw its forces from Sinai. To the surprise of many, his request was honored two days later. Moreover, the Egyptian president closed the Straits of Tiran on May 22."

my teacher said that once egypt closed the straits of tiran, war with israel became inevitable, and egypt knew it.

then in the class we saw this video on the 67 war...
they talked to this egyptian guy who was friends with nasser...
when the war was over, nasser cried and said something along the lines of: "this is all my fault"

it is true israel fired the first shots...
but the arab countries started the 1967 war.

also, afterwards, israel offered both egypt and syria land for peace proposals at the un.
he says he's skeptical about their offer for syria, but he says he doesnt think israel was inerested in gaining more land.

[L@mplighterM]

Some analogy you point a gun at me and I beat you to the draw then somehow it becomes me that started it. I think your teacher is as dumb as snot.

[victot]

no, he said israel fired the first shots in its preemptive strikes agianst egypt, but it was the arabs who started the 1967 conflict...

[ibrodsky]

It's widely recognized that the Arabs started the '67 war. Closing the Straits of Tiran to ships trying to reach Israel and massing forces on their borders with Israel was causis belli. Plus, Nasser publicly stated that his goal was "to drive the Jews into the sea."

When you are outnumbered 20 to 1, you have to do whatever you can to narrow the odds, so Israel launched a pre-emptive strike that destroyed a tremendous amount of Arab weaponery.

Takeo, have you ever read any books about the region's history?

[L@mplighterM]

20-1 most likely 100-1

[Flame]

L@mplighter....this is for real????? Such brilliant people... or maybe brilliant psychics?

Dear World, why did the Arabs - the Palestinians - massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? ETC..... [/B][/QUOTE]

[victot]

they were probably just mad that the stock market crashed...