Islam: A Defective Civilization?

[abu afak]

Islam: A Defective Civilization?
By Robert Locke
FrontPageMagazine.com | February 28, 2002


PRESIDENT BUSH CLEARLY HAS NIGHTMARES about the current war on terror turning into a war with Islam. On the military plane, this is unlikely so long as we do nothing stupid, but on the philosophical plane the question has already been forced in a lot of people’s minds: Is Islam a fundamentally defective civilization and are the advanced nations of the earth therefore doomed to find it a source of trouble? One cannot help noticing that if we take “civilization” in the sense established by Sam Huntingdon’s excellent The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order, it appears that they are the problem child of the planet. The alternative, of course, is that the trouble Islam appears to cause is the product of pure politics and not of religion per se. After years of politically-correct West-bashing sapping our spirit, it is probably salutary for us to assert our superiority if it is warranted, so let’s take a look.

These are the facts that confront us about the Muslim world:

1. Politics: Few Muslim nations are real democracies; in the Arab heartland, the count is zero. An exceptionally high proportion of the Muslim nations, the highest proportion of any major bloc of countries, are politically pathological, having failed to achieve internal stability that rests on anything other than brute force. They are also prone to external aggression, directly or by proxy, much of it serving no discernable national interest.

2. Economics: The Muslim world is impoverished and backward economically if one ignores oil, a windfall that it did not itself create. Worse still, even the oil states can’t produce their own oil but rely on foreign expertise and labor.

3. Society: Most Muslim societies are backward in terms of basic social indicators like levels of education and the status of women. Civil society is stunted. Corruption is rife. Alienation is widespread.

4. Culture: The culture of the Muslim world is not admired by outsiders, either in its high or popular versions. Foreign students do not flock to its universities. Its ideals do not resonate for others. No-one dreams of being like them.

At some point, the observer is entitled to wonder if Islam is behind the problems of Islamic countries. As shown by the enormous amount of conflict Muslims have with Hindu India and with black Africans in the Sudan and elsewhere, it is not just the West they can’t get along with.

One of the most unattractive things about Islam from the point of view of a non-Muslim observer is its combination of arrogance with a failure to back this chest-beating up with results. The West is often accused of arrogance, but the West and its imitators rule the world, so there is a certain logic, if no politeness, to this attitude. Islam, on the other hand, particularly in the minds of its most fanatical adherents, seems to consider itself entitled to rule the world and is alternately puzzled and enraged that this is not happening. It is a doctrine of Islam, for example, that the end of history comes when all the world is converted to Islam; I do not believe any other major religion makes this claim. This sense of superiority and destiny of domination is combined with a curiously inflamed sense of victimhood, for example the ongoing obsession with the crusades as having political relevance to the present day. And of course they ignore the fact that the Muslim world invaded and conquered Europe (at various points Spain, Sicily, the Balkans, Hungary) centuries before the West had laid a hand on them. Furthermore, in terms of their supposed grievance against Christianity, it is conveniently forgotten that Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, and Constantinople were once Christian areas, which fell to Muslim conquest. This is the mentality of the bully-wimp, of the fascist crybaby.

To be fair, one of the sad things about Islam is that many of its definite positive aspects seem to have been blunted in modernity. For example, in the Middle Ages Muslim societies were more tolerant of their religious minorities than was European society at the time, albeit with an air of contempt. They were also more scientifically advanced for a time. All serious writers on modern Islam have posed the following question: why is Islam an obvious correlate, if not a cause, of backwardness today when in the Middle Ages Islamic civilization was one of the most advanced in the world? This is frequently represented as a great puzzle, though I do not think it has to be one.

The simplest explanation is that Islam dictates by dogmatic fiat a kind of high-medieval civilization, but because it establishes it by dogma, it cannot easily advance beyond it, because dogma is fixed. Islam provided a shortcut to a level of social development higher than that of Europe’s Dark Ages, but also a dead end. This would also tend to explain the astonishing rapidity of its development in the Middle East after Mohammed’s revelation, which led to the vast Caliphate of Baghdad, ruling much of the known world, in a relatively short period of time.

The key historical difference between them and us, of course, is the Renaissance. It has even been suggested that the direction of medieval Islamic philosophy shows that a Renaissance was gestating in medieval Islam, inspired as in the West by the assimilation of ancient Greek learning, but that the religious authorities saw its disturbing potential to disturb received religious truth and strangled its development in intellectual infancy.

The counter-argument to all this is that the commonly repeated story of Islamic civilization being at one time the most advanced in the world is a gross exaggeration. The core contention of this school is that what they achieved, they achieved by militarily absorbing non-Muslim societies, like Persia, Egypt, and Byzantium, that were already advanced in their own right and whose achievements after the Muslim conquest cannot be ascribed to any Muslim genius.

The next problem is sharia, Islamic law, a detailed body of instructions on how to run society that has no counterpart in Christianity. The precepts of Christian ethics contained in the Bible are nowhere near as specific, and even they are only ethics, not actually intended to be the statutory law of the land. Even sharia’s closest equivalent in the West, the Jewish hallakha, is in the inventive hands of the Jews preposterously flexible by comparison. Sharia is a straightjacket for the society it governs, though one of a respectably high order by the standards of world history.

Some Muslims, most famously the secular nationalists who have run Turkey since Kemal Attaturk’s post-WWI revolution, have faced this fact squarely and given up on it as a basis for modern society. This was what the Shah of Iran was trying to do when so rudely interrupted by the Ayatollah Khomeini. To greater or lesser degrees, it is what other Muslim societies have done, with Syria, Malaya, Indonesia and Iraq in the vanguard. The opposite extreme is represented by Iran and Saudi Arabia, and was represented by Taliban-ruled Afghanistan.

The rigidity of sharia prevents the dynamic legal, and thus political, order of the West from emerging, but the rigidity of sharia is only its first problem. Its other problem is that by making statutory law a direct dictate from God, it allows no philosophical, as well as practical, room for a secular state. We know this principle as the separation of church and state, which confers two essential benefits:

1. It protects the state from corruption by religion, enabling politics to proceed on its own terms and solve its own problems without getting caught up in religious dogma.

2. It protects religion from corruption by the state, preserving the ability of the spiritual sphere to be true to itself without succumbing to the temptation of resort to coercion in matters of faith.

Christianity teaches that one should render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s....

.... There is also the problem of the Koran. The Koran differs from the Bible fundamentally in that the Koran is not just revelation but also incarnation, i.e. the appearance of God in history. In analogy to Christianity, the Koran is not just the Bible but Jesus as well. Unfortunately there is evidence accumulating from modern Koranic scholarship that the Koran may not be what it claims to be.

For a start, its claim to have appeared all at once in its complete form seems to be false, as shown by ancient versions of it that have been discovered. It has also been shown, based on the standard tools of textual analysis, that much of the pre-Islamic literature that was supposed to prefigure it was in fact written later and falsely dated. These issues are discussed at length in A href="http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jan/koran.htm">this article in The Atlantic. Basically, the same higher criticism that did such damage to Christian faith is slowly starting to work on the Koran......
..... The example of Iraq, a highly secularized Muslim country that exhibits extreme political pathology, makes clear that secularism is no guarantee of reasonableness for Muslim societies. The counter-argument to this, in turn, is that Iraq is still a society formed by Islam, if not currently practicing it with great enthusiasm, and it is due to Islam that it failed to develop into a democracy or some other reasonable form of government.

It is probably true that human beings can, if they put their minds to it, put a politically reasonable gloss on any religion. But this is only true as a matter of bare principle; what they will actually tend to do when given a certain religious starting point is another matter entirely. ........."

The whole article at http://www.frontpagedaily.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=1237

[andak01]

Again he posts an entire article.

Quotes By Robert Locke
FrontPageMagazine.com | February 28, 2002

[quote]Is Islam a fundamentally defective civilization and are the advanced nations of the earth therefore doomed to find it a source of trouble? One cannot help noticing that if we take “civilization” in the sense established by Sam Huntingdon’s excellent The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order, it appears that they are the problem child of the planet.

In other words, if you listen to Sam or Daniel Pipes someone else that hates Islam, you can high five in agreement.

The alternative, of course, is that the trouble Islam appears to cause is the product of pure politics and not of religion per se.

We pass through the entire article without so much as a mention of the effects of colonialism and the installation of puppet rulers like the Shah of Iran, and the assistance given to the Mujjahhiddin/Taliban. So, although these don't present the entire picture, their exclusion makes it seem as if the Arabs just got lazy and stupid at the height of Ottoman power.

These are the facts that confront us about the Muslim world:

1. Politics: A good number of Muslims, some hundreds of millions live outside of the politics of the Middle East. Most of these people are contributing members to Western Society. Many are doctors and scientists.

2. Economics: The Islamic system forbids the use of interest. The Western system is based on it. In fact most of the world is in debt and only because of the interest. Some young people in America commit suicide because of credit card debts that they get into after greedy companies allow them to obtain cards with no means of paying.

3. Society: Muslim society is very backwards indeed. It has failed to support the huge business in pornography and white slavery whose clientelle includes the world's military. They have shown disinterest in nightclubs, sex shops, bars, head shops, sex clubs, gay bars and a host of other profitable businesses. They have shyed away from witchcraft, devil worship, vampirism and sado-masochism, also big businesses to judge from Jerry Springer.

At some point, the observer is entitled to wonder if Islam is behind the problems of Islamic countries. As shown by the enormous amount of conflict Muslims have with Hindu India and with black Africans in the Sudan and elsewhere, it is not just the West they can’t get along with.

This is really starting to sound like the old mantra against the Jews. 'Well they can't get along with anyone anywhere they live, so that proves that they are evil.' It's good that you can just pretty much run the old Nazi articles and just change the word 'Jew' to 'Muslim'. How sad.

[abu afak]

""Again he posts an entire article.""

Embarrassing to see it in print, huh?

Actually, I had to cut about 1/3 of it Off to fit in. (see these '......')

But feel free to read and comment on the the rest as well.

Sorry... But Be it Hindus, Christians, or Jews,... If you want to find a war ... find where they border Islam

[Teacake]

This is really starting to sound like the old mantra against the Jews. 'Well they can't get along with anyone anywhere they live, so that proves that they are evil.' It's good that you can just pretty much run the old Nazi articles and just change the word 'Jew' to 'Muslim'. How sad.

The only thing sad is that lies and propagnda colored fabrications with nothing to back it up such claims other than the aggressors statments. Unfortunately, history and current affairs show that muslims rise up against populations with riots and bloodshed and double speak.

Blood libel and fabrications were used to destroy a culture who were never aggressors and todays aggressors now cry unfair when the spin and facts are exposed with blaring evidence.

[andak01]

I have decided to make some slight ammendments to this article and see if anyone has the stomach to read this kind of indictment of the Jews. I for one would not. It is shameful hate mongering.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by otto afakenburg
[B]Judaeism: A Defective Civilization?
By Reinhart Loekhe
DieFronteZeitung.com | 28 Februar, 1938

Der Feurer CLEARLY HAS NIGHTMARES about the current war on Zionist terror turning into a war with the Zionists. On the military plane, this is unlikely so long as we do nothing stupid, but on the philosophical plane the question has already been forced in a lot of people’s minds: Is Judaeism a fundamentally defective civilization and are the advanced nations of the earth therefore doomed to find it a source of trouble? One cannot help noticing that if we take “civilization” in the sense established by Horst Mueller's excellent The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of the Thousand Year Reich, it appears that they (Jews) are the problem child of the planet. The alternative, of course, is that the trouble Jews appears to cause is the product of pure politics and not of religion per se. After years of politically-correct West-bashing sapping our spirit, it is probably salutary for us to assert our superiority if it is warranted, so let’s take a look.

These are the facts that confront us about the Jew world:

1. Politics: Jews know no real democracy; and Jews have never tended to live in democracies. An exceptionally high proportion of the Jew, the highest proportion of any major bloc of peoples, are politically pathological, having failed to achieve internal stability that rests on anything other than brute force. They are also prone to external aggression, directly or by proxy, much of it serving no discernable national interest.

2. Economics: The Jewish ghettos are impoverished and backward economically. They used to have bankers but that was a windfall that it did not itself create. Worse still, even the bankers are out of business now that they live in the ghettos.

3. Society: Most Jew societies are backward in terms of basic social indicators like levels of education and the status of women. Civil society is stunted. Corruption is rife. Alienation is widespread.

4. Culture: The culture of the Jew world is not admired by outsiders, either in its high or popular versions. Foreign students do not flock to its universities. Its ideals do not resonate for others. No-one dreams of being like them.

At some point, the observer is entitled to wonder if Judaeism is behind the problems of the Jewish people. As shown by the enormous amount of conflict Jew have with the Spanish and the Russians- it is not just the West they can’t get along with.

One of the most unattractive things about Jew from the point of view of a non-Jewish observer is their combination of arrogance with a failure to back this chest-beating up with results. The West is often accused of arrogance, but the West and its imitators rule the world, so there is a certain logic, if no politeness, to this attitude. Judaeism, on the other hand, particularly in the minds of its most fanatical adherents, seems to consider itself entitled to rule the world and is alternately puzzled and enraged that this is not happening. It is a doctrine of Jews, for example, that the end of history comes when all the world is converted to Judaeism (Note: this is no more true of Islam than it probably is of Judaeism); I do not believe any other major religion makes this claim. This sense of superiority and destiny of domination is combined with a curiously inflamed sense of victimhood, for example the ongoing obsession with the crusades as having political relevance to the present day. And of course they ignore the fact that the Jews world invaded and conquered the Holylands and set up settlements all over Europe centuries before the West had laid a hand on them. Furthermore, in terms of their supposed grievance against Christianity, it is conveniently forgotten how they conspired to kill Christ. This is the mentality of the bully-wimp, of the fascist crybaby.

To be fair, one of the sad things about Judaeism is that many of its definite positive aspects seem to have been blunted in modernity. For example, in the Middle Ages Jewish societies were more tolerant of their religious minorities than was European society at the time, albeit with an air of contempt. They were also more scientifically advanced for a time. All serious writers on modern Judaeism have posed the following question: why is Judaeism an obvious correlate, if not a cause, of backwardness today when in the Middle Ages Jewish civilization was one of the most advanced in the world? This is frequently represented as a great puzzle, though I do not think it has to be one.

The simplest explanation is that Judaeism dictates by dogmatic fiat a kind of high-medieval civilization, but because it establishes it by dogma, it cannot easily advance beyond it, because dogma is fixed. Judaeism provided a shortcut to a level of social development higher than that of Europe’s Dark Ages, but also a dead end. This would also tend to explain the astonishing rapidity of its development in the Middle East after Maimonedies revelation, which led to Jewish age of Enlightenment, influencing much of the intellectual world.

The key historical difference between them and us, of course, is the Renaissance. It has even been suggested that the direction of medieval Jewish philosophy shows that a Renaissance was gestating in medieval Judaeism, inspired as in the West by the assimilation of ancient Greek learning, but that the religious authorities saw its disturbing potential to disturb received religious truth and strangled its development in intellectual infancy....

Enough. My point is that taking a whole people and describing their total contributions to the human race as a failure is the highest form of arrogant racism. One might even say uberracism. There is no purpose to writing such an article or posting such an article beyond the incitement of hatred.

[andak01]

Originally posted by Teacake
The only thing sad is that lies and propagnda colored fabrications with nothing to back it up such claims other than the aggressors statments. Unfortunately, history and current affairs show that muslims rise up against populations with riots and bloodshed and double speak.

Blood libel and fabrications were used to destroy a culture who were never aggressors and todays aggressors now cry unfair when the spin and facts are exposed with blaring evidence.

Well I am not an aggressor and I don't like being accused wrongly of being one. I've never held a weapon in my life. The Muslim side of my family in Morocco hasn't been involved in warfare since the Spanish reconquest. At that time they were being driven out of land that they had occupied peacefully for over 700 years.

I don't deny that horrible things are being done in the name of Islam. But you seem almost gleeful to report on it. It proves your point and you win. What? What do you win? You can now strut around with moral superiority and demand the extermination of those you hate?

My religion does not preach destruction and I and my family and the other Muslims I know don't practice it.

[abu afak]

Originally posted by andak01
I have decided to make some slight ammendments to this article and see if anyone has the stomach to read this kind of indictment of the Jews. I for one would not. It is shameful hate mongering.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by otto afakenburg
[B]Judaeism: A Defective Civilization?
By Reinhart Loekh | 28 Februar, 1938

These are the facts that confront us about the Jew world:

1. Politics: Jews know no real democracy; and Jews have never tended to live in democracies. An exceptionally high proportion of the Jew, the highest proportion of any major bloc of peoples, are politically pathological, having failed to achieve internal stability that rests on anything other than brute force. They are also prone to external aggression, directly or by proxy, much of it serving no discernable national interest.

2. Economics: The Jewish ghettos are impoverished and backward economically. They used to have bankers but that was a windfall that it did not itself create. Worse still, even the bankers are out of business now that they live in the ghettos.

3. Society: Most Jew societies are backward in terms of basic social indicators like levels of education and the status of women. Civil society is stunted. Corruption is rife. Alienation is widespread.

4. Culture: The culture of the Jew world is not admired by outsiders, either in its high or popular versions. Foreign students do not flock to its universities. Its ideals do not resonate for others. No-one dreams of being like them.


You have One BIG Problem though andak...

1-4 (and the rest of the article) Fit for Islam But NOT for Jews

1. Politics.. The only Jewish State IS a Democracy.. In Islam it's Very Rare.. Especially the bitter Arab flavor.

2. Economics.... Jews have the Highest Income level in The United States and Israel is Among the highest per Capita Incomes in the World. (More than Twice Saudi-Oil-Arabia's!)

3. Society..Jews (and Isreal) have the are the best educated people on the Planet and Isreal has a wonderful Social net. Jews are easily the biggest achievers on the Planet for their size. (or for anyone's size)

4. Culture.. Jews have won 20+% of All the Nobel Prizes, despite being 1/4 of 1% of the World's Population. Arabs are 20% of the World's population but have won not even 1/4 of 1% of all the Nobel Prizes. ... ...
Jews are at the Top in Academia, Literature, Music, Medicine, Physics, etc etc etc


The rest of your attempt is equally preposterous and out of place. (like Jew's high point being the Middle Ages?!!!)


So just Switching Religion names only makes your post Laughable .. not fair

[Teacake]

Originally posted by andak01
But you seem almost gleeful to report on it. You can now strut around with moral superiority and demand the extermination of those you hate?


Spin Spin Spin - not wanting to be the target of islamic jihad makes me gleeful oand superior? Show me any post anywhere that I sugested extermination. Spin spin spin.

Your family might be wonderful people and I don't doubt that, but its like saying its the teeth of the dragon that is doing harm and I am just the tail.

That aljazirah tv is so popular indicates that you have your head in the sand. What I object to is your innocent act. The day aljazera is off the air, is a day I"ll consider your POV.

[Teacake]

cont... you just come off as a fool and a liar when you say islam doesn't preach to harm anyone. (Example below). I would find you more believable and sincere if you said that modern muslims are conflicted in the countless passages that instil hate and that everything is being done to put it in the anals of history. But, you just deny what can't be refuted. EXAMPLE:


http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/The_Moderate_Voice_of_Islam$.asp
The Moderate Voice of Islam?
by Aish.com Staff



All decent human beings recoiled at the headline of January 5, 2003:


Double-Suicide Bombing Kill 22, Wound 120 in Tel Aviv



We all know how radical Islamists support these terrorist murderers. But what do the voices of "moderate" Islam have to say?

Are we hearing an outcry from Islamic religious leaders in the Western world?

The following Fatwa (Islamic legal religious opinion) is from the "Ask the Scholar" feature of www.Islam-Online.net.
The question was asked and answered on January 5, 2003, the day of the double-suicide bombing in Tel Aviv. (paragraph bolded for emphasis)

[begin quote]

Question: Some people say that the operations carried out by Palestinians are considered suicidal acts and not a kind of Jihad, is that true? Please tell me whether these acts are martyr operations and a kind of striving in Allah's Cause or not?

Answer: Dear brother in Islam, we appreciate your forwarding the question to us, with aim of getting acquainted with the teachings of your religion. This is what is required of all Muslims, to strive hard in seeking knowledge with which he will benefit Muslim Ummah.

As regards your question, the following is the fatwa issued by Sheikh Faysal Mawlawi, deputy chairman of European Council for Fatwa and Research:

"Martyr operations are not suicide and should not be deemed as unjustifiable means of endangering one's life. Allah says in the Glorious Qura'n: "And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good." (Al-Baqara:195).

The verse obviously indicates that failing to spend in Allah's Cause is like casting oneself into ruin. That is the reason behind the revelation of the noble verse. Reviewing the Islamic rule: "Words should be construed as imparting general meanings regardless of their specific occasions", the meaning of the afore-mentioned verse is bound to extend to include any negligence of a religious duty; i.e. forsaking a religious duty entails casting oneself into ruin. The same applies to committing sins.

Therefore, it's quite an abysmal analysis for someone to focus on the afore-mentioned verse through a narrow a perspective, without taking into consideration all relevant points.

Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, strictly forbade suicide and made it clear that anyone who commits suicide would be cast into hell. But in such case suicide means Muslim's killing himself without any lawfully accepted reason or killing himself to escape pain or social problems.

On the other hand, in martyr operations, the Muslim sacrifices his own life for the Sake of performing a religious duty, which is Jihad against the enemy as scholars say. Accordingly, a Muslim's intention when committing suicide is certainly different from his intention when performing a military operation and dying in the Cause of Almighty Allah. So it is natural that the religious legal status would differ in each case, as Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him says in a Hadith: "Actions are but by intention, and every man shall have but that which he intended."

This means that martyr operations are totally different from the forbidden suicide. Concerning the Palestinians, they carry out the operations in showing resistance to the aggression launched by the enemy who has occupied their land, destroyed their houses, desecrated their sacred places and driven about four million of them out of their houses, replacing them with even larger numbers of Jewish settlements.

The enemy relies on sophisticated military equipments while, at the same time, denying the Palestinians their basic human rights, killing their women, children and men mercilessly, and rendering the Palestinians powerless and incapable of defending themselves - even all the Arab countries face the same fate, lacking necessary weapons.

So the Palestinians have nothing in their disposal but stones which they throw at their enemy in order to defend their country. This, despite its indication of a high morale, cannot deter the enemy this way. So the Palestinians resort to martyr operations, in which the martyr blows himself/herself up, sacrificing his life for the sake of his country and inflicting serious but reciprocal harms on the enemy.

In the light of the above-mentioned facts, I believe that those missions are a sacred duty carried out in form of self-defence and resisting aggression and injustice. So whoever is killed in such missions is a martyr, may Allah bless him with high esteem. I call on every Palestinian not to hesitate in carrying out such operations as long as they are the only way of making Jihad and are made with an intention of sacrificing one's life for the Sake of one's religion and nation. I wish that other scholars who hesitate concerning such a matter to reconsider their views according to what I have said and what other scholars have said. May Allah guide us all to what is right."

Also, it'll be beneficial to read Justice... for Peace and Security.

[end quote]

And lest this is dismissed as a radical Islamist opinion, Islam-Online.net describes themselves as: "adopting the middle ground of Islam, avoiding extremism or negligence, rejecting deviant or strange opinions."

Here's more from the "About Us" section: (http://www.islam-online.net/english/aboutus.shtml))

[begin quote]

This site aims to present a unified and lively Islam that keeps up with modern times in all areas. Our motto is: credibility and distinction...

Its role is to ensure that nothing on this site violates the fixed principles of Islamic law (Shar'ia). The committee includes experts in politics, economics, the media, sociology, technology, the arts, and other fields, all of whom are committed to participate in the Islamic Renaissance in all fields and at all levels...

Our Goals: To work for the good of humanity, as Islam teaches us. To work to uplift the Islamic nation specifically and humanity in general. To support the principles of freedom, justice, democracy, and human rights. To reinforce values and morals on the individual, family, and community levels. To expand the circle of introducing Islam; present its wholeness and the way its system and laws complement each other; to affirm its balance, fairness and applicability in all places and times; and present tolerance and the humanity of its laws...

Balanced approach: Adopting the middle ground of Islam, avoiding extremism or negligence, rejecting deviant or strange opinions. Objective treatment: Striving for scientific accuracy, adopting neutrality and avoiding pre-judgments. Moral approach: Avoiding slander or praise of individuals, groups or states, avoiding propagandist and sensational methods, or provocation and incitement. Pleasant presentation: Ensuring that all contents are displayed professionally and enjoyably.

[end quote]


------------------------------------------------------------------------
This article can also be read at: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/The_Moderate_Voice_of_Islam$.asp

Copyright © 1995 - 2002 Aish.com - http://www.aish.com

[andak01]

Thanks. I'm pretty accoustomed to being called a liar and a fool. I expected that this would be a tough crowd. Thanks for reining in your hatred for a couple of posts. You want the voice of moderate Islam, I'm it. Are you telling me that I am wrong to think that way? I would like to see Islam, one of the world's great religion not marginalized to the point that we can no longer function. I know plenty of moderate Muslims who's only desire is to serve their community. In fact, it was that kind of person that drew me to Islam in the first place.

http://roguestate.org/suicide.htm
http://www.ualberta.ca/~sganam/suicide.html

[abu afak]

Originally posted by andak01
I have decided to make some slight ammendments to this article and see if anyone has the stomach to read this kind of indictment of the Jews. I for one would not. It is shameful hate mongering.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by otto afakenburg
[B]

1. Politics: Jews know no real democracy; and Jews have never tended to live in democracies. An exceptionally high proportion of the Jew, the highest proportion of any major bloc of peoples, are politically pathological, having failed to achieve internal stability that rests on anything other than brute force. They are also prone to external aggression, directly or by proxy, much of it serving no discernable national interest.

2. Economics: The Jewish ghettos are impoverished and backward economically. They used to have bankers but that was a windfall that it did not itself create. Worse still, even the bankers are out of business now that they live in the ghettos.

3. Society: Most Jew societies are backward in terms of basic social indicators like levels of education and the status of women. Civil society is stunted. Corruption is rife. Alienation is widespread.

4. Culture: The culture of the Jew world is not admired by outsiders, either in its high or popular versions. Foreign students do not flock to its universities. Its ideals do not resonate for others. No-one dreams of being like them.



You have One BIG Problem though andak...

1-4 (and the rest of the article) Fit for Islam But NOT for Jews

1. Politics.. The only Jewish State IS a Democracy.. In Islam it's Very Rare.. Especially the bitter Arab flavor.

2. Economics.... Jews have the Highest Income level in The United States and Israel is Among the highest per Capita Incomes in the World. (More than Twice Saudi-Oil-Arabia's!)

3. Society..Jews (and Isreal) have the are the best educated people on the Planet and Isreal has a wonderful Social net. Jews are easily the biggest achievers on the Planet for their size. (or for anyone's size)

4. Culture.. Jews have won 20+% of All the Nobel Prizes, despite being 1/4 of 1% of the World's Population. Arabs are 20% of the World's population but have won not even 1/4 of 1% of all the Nobel Prizes. ... ...
Jews are at the Top in Academia, Literature, Music, Medicine, Physics, etc etc etc


The rest of your attempt is equally preposterous and out of place. (like Jew's high point being the Middle Ages?!!!)


So just Switching Religion names only makes your post Laughable .. not fair

Still waiting Buddy................

[andak01]

Islamaphobia, fit for Muslims not for Jews. Got it. At least you are employing a time honored tradition. You forgot to mention the terrorist Chechnyans. Here is what Amnesty international has to say about them.

http://www.amnesty.org/russia/

http://web.amnesty.org/802568F7005C4453/0/F26C0DA3A4D20FC880256900006931C8?Open&Highlight=2,Indonesia

Here is what Amnesty International has to say about Indonesia. I don't see the word Muslim mentioned anywhere. Perhaps they recognize that there are other motives involved in the conflict.

[andak01]

I noticed you omitted the date on my post, 1938. That must be a mistake, since you say that I am the one who is deceptive and a liar.

Originally posted by abu afak
[B]You have One BIG Problem though andak...

1-4 (and the rest of the article) Fit for Islam But NOT for Jews

1. Politics.. The only Jewish State IS a Democracy.. In Islam it's Very Rare.. Especially the bitter Arab flavor.
There was no state of Israel in 1938.


2. Economics.... Jews have the Highest Income level in The United States and Israel is Among the highest per Capita Incomes in the World. (More than Twice Saudi-Oil-Arabia's!)
They did not in 1938.

3. Society..Jews (and Isreal) have the are the best educated people on the Planet and Isreal has a wonderful Social net. Jews are easily the biggest achievers on the Planet for their size. (or for anyone's size)
Then why do Jews need anyone else? Seems like the rest of the world is nothing but trouble for them.

4. Culture.. Jews have won 20+% of All the Nobel Prizes, despite being 1/4 of 1% of the World's Population. Arabs are 20% of the World's population but have won not even 1/4 of 1% of all the Nobel Prizes. ... ...
Jews are at the Top in Academia, Literature, Music, Medicine, Physics, etc etc etc
This was not true in 1938, although no Arabs had won the prize at that time. It was the exclusive domain of Europeans for the first 50 years of its history. Truly an unbiased way of judging the world's races. I would be interested to see how Indians and Chinese did according to their own demographic.

[abu afak]

It was also true in 1938.. (including Nobel Prizes, culture, economic status in Europe instead of the United states) except there wasn't a state to have a Democracy in Yet.. and that has become a fact as of 1948.

And all of what I said about Islam is TRUE TODAY.

We can go back to the Hitites and Amorites to find other 'mass murderers like Moslems' (you admit), or we can go back 1000 years when Islam was a 'high' civilization (forgetting the killng)..

OR we can talk about Islam today..... which is what I do ....

and you can't live with or defend ...who could?

[andak01]

OR we can talk about Islam today..... which is what I do ....

and you can't live with or defend ...who could?

I was waiting for you to get to the point. Are you calling for extermination of Muslims?

[reason]

Originally posted by andak01
Thanks. I'm pretty accoustomed to being called a liar and a fool. I expected that this would be a tough crowd. Thanks for reining in your hatred for a couple of posts. You want the voice of moderate Islam, I'm it. Are you telling me that I am wrong to think that way? I would like to see Islam, one of the world's great religion not marginalized to the point that we can no longer function. I know plenty of moderate Muslims who's only desire is to serve their community. In fact, it was that kind of person that drew me to Islam in the first place.

http://roguestate.org/suicide.htm
http://www.ualberta.ca/~sganam/suicide.html

Anadak Im truly pleased somebody else sees what Islam really is. I add my voice to yours Im a moderate Muslim. And what you say is 100% true.

[reason]

Originally posted by abu afak
You have One BIG Problem though andak...

1-4 (and the rest of the article) Fit for Islam But NOT for Jews

1. Politics.. The only Jewish State IS a Democracy.. In Islam it's Very Rare.. Especially the bitter Arab flavor.

2. Economics.... Jews have the Highest Income level in The United States and Israel is Among the highest per Capita Incomes in the World. (More than Twice Saudi-Oil-Arabia's!)

3. Society..Jews (and Isreal) have the are the best educated people on the Planet and Isreal has a wonderful Social net. Jews are easily the biggest achievers on the Planet for their size. (or for anyone's size)

4. Culture.. Jews have won 20+% of All the Nobel Prizes, despite being 1/4 of 1% of the World's Population. Arabs are 20% of the World's population but have won not even 1/4 of 1% of all the Nobel Prizes. ... ...
Jews are at the Top in Academia, Literature, Music, Medicine, Physics, etc etc etc


The rest of your attempt is equally preposterous and out of place. (like Jew's high point being the Middle Ages?!!!)


So just Switching Religion names only makes your post Laughable .. not fair

So you are saying Jews are superior to Arabs?

Well the Nobel prize dosnt prove anything other than yes the jews have been well educated for the past 100 years. What do you think the Nobel prize would look like if it was started during the golden age of Islam?Lets see.... Muslim scholars would have won in chemistry, physics, astronomy , mathematics, economics,literature.........the list goes on.

[Hierophant]

Originally posted by reason
So you are saying Jews are superior to Arabs?

Well the Nobel prize dosnt prove anything other than yes the jews have been well educated for the past 100 years. What do you think the Nobel prize would look like if it was started during the golden age of Islam?Lets see.... Muslim scholars would have won in chemistry, physics, astronomy , mathematics, economics,literature.........the list goes on.

do they give nobel prizes for translations?

[Mediocrates]

We've been down this route before. This smacks a little of "Could Aristotle win a Nobel Prize?" "Could Newton win a Fields Medal?"

Dunno.

By the way, Cy Young could never win a Cy Young award in today's game. I doubt he could even be a starter. Different world, different times.

[andak01]

He is best who follows the golden rule- treat others as you would be treated. Jesus said it, Muhammad said it, Hillel said it, Buddha said it.

[abu afak]

Originally posted by andak01
He is best who follows the golden rule- treat others as you would be treated. Jesus said it, Muhammad said it, Hillel said it, Buddha said it.

Golda Meir said it too... 1977

"Peace will not come until the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours."

[andak01]

Originally posted by abu afak
Golda Meir said it too... 1977

"Peace will not come until the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours."

You're comparing Golda Meir to Jesus and Buddha?

She also said, in 1969: "There are no Palestinians."

[abu afak]

Originally posted by andak01
You're comparing Golda Meir to Jesus and Buddha?

She also said, in 1969: "There are no Palestinians."

I'm adding hers to the statements of other famous people.. especially in regards the 'Golden Rule' reference in the post before which brought her statement to mind.

As to her statement about 'Palestinians':

""Golda Meir once argued that there was no such thing as a Palestinian; at the time, she wasn't entirely wrong. Before Arafat began his proselytizing, most of the Arabs from the territory of Palestine thought of themselves as members of an all-embracing Arab nation. It was Arafat who made the intellectual leap to a definition of the Palestinians as a distinct people; he articulated the cause, organized for it, fought for it and brought it to the world's attention. ..""" http://www.yahoodi.com

AND OTHERS

"..There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass.
But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today. Greed. Pride. Envy. Covetousness. No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough....""""

- Joseph Farah, Arab-American journalist,


"Palestinians" [are an] Arab people no one heard of before 1967 before Israeli governments certified this piece of propaganda... As has been noted many times before, prior to 1948, that is before Jews had begun to call themselves Israelis, the only persons known as "Palestinians" were Jews, with the Arabs much preferrring to identify themselves as part of the great Arab nation.

- David Basch



""...Palestine does not belong to the "Palestinians" and never did. They did not even call themselves Palestinians until the middle 1960s. Before that, the word "Palestinian" meant "Jewish," while the local Arabs called themselves simply "Arabs." The creation of the PLO by Gamal Abdul Nasser in 1964 was a brilliant ploy to distort the parameters of the dispute, largely for propaganda purposes. It was inconvenient to have a conflict between 20-odd Arab states with an area 530 times greater than Israel, a population more than 30 times greater than Israel's and enormously richer natural resources. Far better to invent a "Palestinian" nation that would be the eternal "underdog," - a nation consisting partly of immigrants from Syria and other Arab countries who came to benefit from the rapidly growing economy Zionist Jews created. .."" westerndefense.org



"There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented!

- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, a local Arab leader, to the Peel Commission, 1937

[pagan]

There is no golden rule in Islam. I simply can't persons like Jesus and Buddha equated with Dirty MO . It's disgusting.:tdown:

[Mediocrates]

2000 years of the 'Golden Rule' in Christianity leaves me somewhat cynical, at best. You see, doctrine and dogma are one thing; power is quite another.

Did you know for example that the Inquisition lived for a time here, in what is now the US? When Spain controlled Florida, they instituted the Inquisition there. They also mounted the Inquisition in what became the Louisiana Purchase. After them the French had their own flavor in Louisiana, called the Code Noir which forbade the presence of Jews in any French controlled territory.

"The poor will always be with you". So too the followers of Jesus, apparently.