Game over

[Negev]

maybe a solution to be considered is a sustained israeli counter-attack on the palestinian troops of arafat, until one of two things happen:

1. arafart stops terrorism against israel and then peace talks resume

2. arafart's terror machine is eventually demolished by israel and then it's the end of the pa. peace negotiations resume when a new palestinian leadership is elected that will stop, or not be capable of terrorism.

either way this is now war and it needs to be decided once and for all if the arabs will stop terrorism the easy way or the hard way. and either way: game over, arafart!

[Flame]

This game should have been over along time ago... but thanks to the US, UN and EU telling Israel to restrain herself... only made matters worse. Just because some people lived in an area and refused to relocate to Jordan... does not equal they deserve a new nation of their own. They deserve to all be tossed in a high-security prison. They are criminals and that sort of bull would never be allowed to go on in the US. When roits break out here, every military group is called out to put an end to it, quickly.

Israel has been too willing to help and thus is seen as a chump people who will not take serious action to defend itself, as the world has kept Israel on a leash. The palestine people belong in jail if they don't relocate to any of 22 arab lands.

In all the years of talks... Israel is expected to give up land, make restitution, allows refugees to return, gives up Jerusalem, etc.... and WHAT does Israel get in return????? A flimsy peace treaty???? Like its even worth the paper it would be written on???? They have to give up more than that if they want Israel to give up EVERYTHING!!!!!! That is no deal, no comprimise, and total bull. They deserve prison and nothing less.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Flame
Israel has been too willing to help and thus is seen as a chump people who will not take serious action to defend itself

You're right about that.

In the primitive cesspool of Arafatistan, Israeli kindness to the Palestinian has been mistaken for weakness and Israel has paid a serious price as a result.

Unfortunately, the only thing that Arabs understand and respect is overwhelming force.

[takeo]

So flame why not call it concentration camps???
israel never gave up anything, despite pressure from the world, that's exactly why there never was any peace.

[watcher]

Originally posted by takeo
So flame why not call it concentration camps???
israel never gave up anything, despite pressure from the world, that's exactly why there never was any peace.

Israel gave up much more than you would ever admit! There are foriegn squatters in the land still holding on to a name "palestine" comitting bloodthirsty mass murder trying to steal the land of Israel away... That's exactly why there never was any peace.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by watcher
Israel gave up much more

Sure.

For example, all the Palestinian major cities that are under Arafat's control were given by Israel to the Palestinians after Oslo.

In addition to land, the Arafatists have complete autonomy to elect their own government and run it as they please, build their civil infrastructure as they please, set up their educational and justice system (whatever those might look like in a corrupt Arab dictatorship), conduct foreign diplomacy, etc.

Israel has given extensively to the Arabs and has gotten nothing but dead Israelis in return for its overly generous gifts to the Arabs.

[takeo]

"overly generous"
lol
some isolated refugee-camps completely surrounded by military and settlements have been generously given to the PA, yet most of the land Israel concuered in 1967 has not been returned, nor are the palestinians allowed to live in freedom without Israeli occupation and have an own state. Also the palestinian refugees of 1949 are still not able to return. Besides Israel is still occupying a part of syria. Israel gave very little, and was not prepared to give back what they took from their victims or to accept international demands, that's why the there was never peace.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Besides Israel is still occupying a part of syria.

Ahhh... Would that be, by any chance, the part of Syria that was formerly used by the Syrian army to shoot missiles into Israeli population centers and to threaten Israel's water supply?

[NewsGuy]

Looks like Ariel Sharon's new crackdown on the Palestinian terrorists and the PA terror machine is starting to deliver real results.

Here's the good news:

1. After jailing arch-terrorist Arafat for about 3 months and ignoring EU pressure to let the criminal out, all of a sudden Arafat "decided" to arrest the murderers of Israeli cabinet minister Zeevi.

The clincher was the Israeli bombing of Arafat's "presidential" compound in Gaza and systematically demolishing the PA military structures, and then sending in a missile or two into the compound where Arafat is currently under house arrest. It also helped that Israel has declared that it would carve out some "buffer zones" to prevent the Palestinian terrorists from entering Israel. Notice that this progress happened within 24 hours of landing the missiles a few feet away from Arafat himself and announcing the buffer zones.

2. Since moving Israeli tanks into Palestinian terrorist cities (which is all of them actually) and clamping down on all travel in and out of those cities, there has been a decrease in terrorist attempts in the past few days, and after a combined Israeli naval, air and land assualt against the Palestinian terror machine, all of a sudden high-level Israeli-Palestinian contacts resumed in the last day or so.

Now, we're definitely not done with Palestinian terrorism, but by communicating with the primitive Palestinians in the only way they understand, which is overwhelming force, there is at least some progress being made. In return, now that Zeevi's murderers have been arrested, Israel has announced that it is easing the hardship on the Palestinian population.

But the problem with the arrest of the murderers is that they may be just entering Arafat's terrorist revolving door, where they will be held in country-club conditions and then released very soon.

That's why I hope that Israel will insist that Arafat hand them over to Israel for real justice before Arafat can be allowed to leave his Ramallah jail cell.

[takeo]

actually Sharon's policy of terrorist attacks on the life of Arafat has achieved only that Al-fatah has proclaimed severe reprisals against the israeli army. All palestinian organisations are underground by now, and almost all palestinians are member of one of those organisations. Israel can easily kill arafat, yet if it wants to stop palestinian resistance by force only genocide will help. If israel chooses for escalation, it will get what it deserves.
And the plans to arrest them were made much earlier. They will only give them to Israel if Israel hands over the terrorists responsible for the assasinations of palestinian leaders.
the buffers, occupations and destroying everything in palestine, including civilian targets as the television buildings, schools and the port, all has occured in the past as well, with the result even more escalation. It won't be any different now, remember my words....

[takeo]

i'm sorry if i sound belligerent. I actually do believe in peace-talks, but it seems Israel is not ready yet to face reality (that peace-talks and withdrawel will be conducted anyway, and the sooner it happens, the less blood and problems)

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
All palestinian organisations are underground by now, and almost all palestinians are member of one of those organisations.

These organizations are far from being "underground" as you say.

One of the silliest propaganda moves of the Islamic terrorists is to declare that they have a "community" arm and a "military" arm.

So terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hizbullah are allowed to operate "community" centers openly. Of course these centers are just designed to disburse Saudi and Iranian money for the suicide bombers' families to encourage more mass murder of innocent Israelis. And these centers also teach hatred and train future Islamic terrorists, while gathering political power.

I look forward to the next Palestinian fake elections where these "underground" terrorist groups run for office and win, and then claim to be the official democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people. Then we will have another Algeria-style Arab vs. Arab bloodbath in Arafatistan.

If one has not seen images from the Arab vs. Arab massacres in Algeria, please do so, but be careful not to eat right before doing so. You will see images of dozens of Arabs beheaded thrown in to the town's drinking well, which is full of blood and surrounded by clouds of flies.

So it might very well be in Arafatistan, too, unfortunately.

[takeo]

No, what happened in Algeria is indeed terrible, but it won't happen in palestine, where palestinians have a common ennemy. By the way i have been to Algeria one year ago and it seems the Islamists have lost all support. As the hesbollah in libanon, all palestinian organisations are being created to fight the occupier, and many of them don't have a religious background. There will only be elections if Israel withdraw, and if this happens it will be considered a victory for Arafat, so he will win (al-fatah). Besides palestinian are tired of war, once Israel retreats and they gained there independance they are not ready to launch in another war, as could happen if Hamas wins. they support hamas as a mean to hurt the occupier, but most would not like to be ruled by Hamas (or Jihad) once they gained independance. This was what i remembered from my discussions with many palestinians.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
As the hesbollah in libanon, all palestinian organisations are being created to fight the occupier

. . .

they support hamas as a mean to hurt the occupier, but most would not like to be ruled by Hamas (or Jihad) once they gained independance. This was what i remembered from my discussions with many palestinians.

The Hizbullah example is a good one because, similarly to Hizbullah, Hamas is also a puppet terrorist representatives of the Iranian Ayatollahs.

Iran will make sure that Hamas will have tremendous political power, especially when the Israeli-Palestinian conflict ends, just as they did exactly in Lebanon. Notice that in Lebanon, Hizbullah now holds the majority of parliament seats in the southern disctrict where it operates. That's the Iranian influence and meddling strategy to destabilize the entire Middle East and bring it within Iranian control.

That's why the PA itself objects to free elections now, becuase it knows that the majority of Palestinians, including of course the 2/3 that support suicide bombings, will vote for Hamas, not for the corrupt PA again.

There is a very good chance that the Algerian bloodbath will happen in Arafatistan, too.

[takeo]

First Hamas is more radical than Hesbollah and Iran (that is now ruled by moderate Khatami). And i really don't think a majority of the palestinians would vote for Hamas, as many Palestinians, the majority, don't support their fundamentalism (only their struggle against Israel). Hesbollah has by the way never carried out suicide attacks against civilians. And i heard it had tremendous influence in southern Libanon, yet it hasn't used that force to persecute the Christians, launch another war against Israel or launch a civil war against the Libanese government. in fact everyone, including me, was surprised they acted so "civilised" after Israel withdraw unilatteraly. Unfortunately i think Hamas can be trusted less and remains a danger for any peace-treaty.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
First Hamas is more radical than Hesbollah and Iran (that is now ruled by moderate Khatami).

That's pretty funny that you say that Iran is ruled by Khatami (who himself is not even a moderate).

All of Khatami's policies need to pass the approval of the religious extremist arm of the Iranian government, which is ruled by the Ayatollahs. Khatami has no real power at all.

Secondly, it is very interesting that you imagine Hizbullah to be moderate. Are you serious aobut this, or is it a typo?

[takeo]

well, Khatami has said that he want to improove relations with the US and give more personal freedom, that sounds pretty moderate to me. And he has overwelming popular support and the parliament in his favor (but the "axis of evil"- speech of Bush, possibly favored by the pro-Israel-lobby in washington, can enforce again the conservatives in Iran)
I said Hesbollah was moderate compared to hamas.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
well, Khatami has said that he want to improove relations with the US and give more personal freedom, that sounds pretty moderate to me. And he has overwelming popular support and the parliament in his favor...

Sorry, Khatami did say those things, but his Ayatollah masters have pulled his leash too tight.

Here's a typical Ayatollah move showing who's the boss, reported by the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1842000/1842985.stm):

"The Tehran premises of the Unity Consolidation Bureau are reported to have been sealed after police raided the building and detained many reformist student leaders.

The Unity Consolidation Bureau has been one of the pillars of active support for President Mohammed Khatami and the reform movement. "

[takeo]

Yes the iranian regime is struggling to find which way to go. the conservatives resist with every force they still have, but popular support and time is in their desadvantage. Of course aggressive us-policy towards Iran will give them more popularity and will unite the iranians again.