Amazing interview in Israeli TV

[sharonbn]

Following is the full transcript of the phone interview of Noam Federman, held by Shai & Dror during their satirical show in channel 10 in the Israeli TV. (the interview is authentic, not a satire sketch.)

Some background: Noam Federman is one of the leading figures in the extreme right political movement Kach that was outlawed some 15 years ago by the Knesset. The movement was founded by Rabbi Kahanah, who was murdered in 1990 in the US.
The interview was done following the events surrounding the funeral of Rabbi Netanel Useri who was killed by Palestinians terrorists who attacked his isolated settlement near Hebron.

The funeral procession was detained after the wife of Useri demanded the participation of Federman and Baruch Marzel, also a leader of Kach. They could not attend the funeral since they were banned from entering Hebron under a military order, after starting a violent riot in the area in the past.
The funeral finally got underway at noon (without the attendance of Federman and Marzel) and was characterized by rioting youngsters that vandalized Palestinian property and clashed with the Police. Soon it turned out that there are discrepancies among the family of the deceased regarding the burial place. Useri’s father wanted to bury his son in Jerusalem, but Useri’s wife demanded he’ll be buried in the field where he was murdered and even got some of his friends to dig a hole in the field as a preparation. After some negotiations, the Rabbi of Hebron decided that that body will be buried in Hebron cemetery.

In the afternoon, the body was snatched by Useri’s friends, who rushed with it to the hole they dug earlier. They were stopped a short distance away by the Police. The Police ordered the funeral vehicle to drive to Hebron, but then Useri’s wife decided to drive to Jerusalem with the body in order to protest the forbiddance to bury her husband where she wanted. The long funeral procession turned towards Jerusalem despite Police objection. In Jerusalem the wife spoke with some Rabbis and finally agreed to bury Useri in Hebron. During the travel back to Hebron, a second attempt was made to snatch the body. The attempt was stopped after a violent clash with Police. The Police moved the body to a military ambulance who drive, under heavy security to Hebron, where Useri was finally put to rest.

The interview took place the same day (yesterday) at 11 PM. The transcript was published in Ynet. I translated the transcript almost word by word and only added some explanations in brackets.

Shai & Dror: Shalom Noam Federman
Noam Federman: Shalom. Who is this?
S&D: Its Shai from Shai & Dror. Are you at home now?
NF: Yes
S&D: Did you steal the body? (of Netanel Useri, SB)
NF: I am under home arrest by order of center region command general. He would not let me attend the funeral.
S&D: What is your connection to the incident of stealing the body?
NF: What is your connection to the incident?
S&D: We are just curious.
NF: I’ll tell you how you are connected: because of you, Jews are being murdered. That’s how you are connected to the stealing of the body
S&D: Why is this happening because of us?
NF: Why?? Because you’re leftists.
S&D: We sent him (Netanel Useri, SB) to sit there alone?
NF: You are leftists, so it happens.
S&D: Leftists cause Jews to be murdered?
NF: Of course. Leftists cause Jews to be murdered.
S&D. Leftists sit here in Tel Aviv quietly, eating their Sushi, not doing harm to anyone.
NF: Leftists get blown up in Tel Aviv and after that we get blown up in Hebron because of you.
S&D: Maybe it’s the other way around? Maybe because you’re sitting there in all the weird places – people get blown up in Tel Aviv?
NF: Sheinkin is a weird place in my eyes, relatively to Hebron (Sheinkin street is considered the center of bohemian life in Tel Aviv, SB). Neve Sha’anan with all the Negroes, the Indians, the Hispanics, the Japs and the Chinese – that’s even weirder than Hebron (Neve Sha’anan is a neighborhood in south Tel Aviv where many foreign workers live. It is also the place where the latest suicide bombing occurred, two weeks ago. SB)
S&D: Tell me: do you consider yourself a man-hater misanthrope? Do you hate leftists?
NF: I detest leftists.
S&D: What do you like least: leftists or Arabs? Who is worse?
NF: Leftists are much worse than Arabs.
S&D: If you could do a transfer, would you get rid of the Arabs or leftists?
NF: Leftists are traitorous characters that rather sell their own people for the pot of gold and for pleasure benefits and they are much worse than Arabs.
S&D: Tell me, is there one leftist that you believe is truly harmful to the people and because of him all this happens?
NF: There many such: Yossi Sarid (head of Meretz party, SB), Yossi Beilin (one of the leading figures in the negotiations that led to the Oslo accord, SB) , Mitzna (head of the labour party, candidate for PM in upcoming elections, SB)
S&D: who is he most prominent one?
NF: Beilin.
S&D: What would you do to him?
NF: I would put him to trial for his Oslo crimes (referring to the Oslo accord, SB). If the court would have found him guilty, and I believe it would, than he should be hanged in the city square – the square of the kings of Israel (former name of Rabin square, in the center of Tel Aviv, SB)
S&D: but only after a trial, because we are a democratic state
NF: Sure, we’ll bring witnesses, all Oslo orphans.
S&D: Would you like yourself to be the one that executes him? Be the one that wraps the rope around Beilin’s neck?
NF: Very gladly.
S&D: It would make you feel good, huh?
NF: Its not a matter of feeling good. Actually it hurts me to hang a Jew, but what can you do.
S&D: Who else would you hang in a row besides Beilin?
NF: Lets not start naming names.
S&D: Listen, they did you a favor and erected five hanging polls in the city square.
NF: They killed Rabin already.
S&D yes, you killed Rabin already.
NF: Yes, Rabin is already dead.
S&D: So who else?
NF: Peres.
S&D: You would hang Peres?
NF: Why not? Beilin, Rabin, eh.... Rabin is already....
S&D: You eliminated Rabin already. Who else?
NF: Who else? Everyone who traits the Israeli people
S&D: Noam Federman, thank you, keep up the good work you’re doing in Hebron.
NF: all the best, goodbye.

[Miriam]

There must be something seriously wrong with Israeli psychiatry

[strategist]

What a pleasant person.

Needless to say, he is as much a problem as Hamas.

In fact, I personally blame these extreme rightists for causing all this terror in the first place.

Both object to Oslo.

Hamas knows that terror will strengthen the Israeli right.

The Israeli right protested after every attack.

Hamas knew its strategy was working.

The fact is, the Israeli right and Hamas are de facto allies.

They allow each other to survive and gain strength.

[Communication]

NF: Its not a matter of feeling good. Actually it hurts me to hang a Jew, but what can you do.


eh, zealots. exactly why do people consider them religious? what is their religion anyway?

[Mediocrates]

2 points.

1 - People have no rights over the dead, only obligations. What they did was wrong in just about every sense I can think of.


2 - Having said that, I don't see a problem with being as radical as possible. For too long we have agreed with our persecutors who would demand we acceed to their barbarism as if thinking nice thoughts makes the reality of murder palatable. It's high time terrorists had to confront people just as radical just as ruthless just as unapologetically determined to get their own results. I've said it before - the ridge of the moral highground is nothing more than a good target to shoot at.

[Givaty]

I simply cant understand how you can ever connect Hamas and Noam Federman.
I dont support Extremism on either side, but does Mr. Federman teach and send his kids to blow up innocent children in their homes, in their cafes? Does he train snipers to look at a 10 month olds' head and calmly squeeze the trigger?
The answer is no.
You are sick to equate the two.
SICK

[Mediocrates]

That's not my point, if your're responding to me. My point is that we should not be shy to escalate the radical rhetoric to the forefront. Of course they are not the same thing in deed. But for too long we've schlepped along bemoaning that everyone doesn't like us and how we should be nice.

Whatever for? The time for nice is over. And the PA and its organizational aparatchiks need to understand the rising level of determination they are facing. It's no accident that what we all would have called 'extremist' 5 years ago is pretty mainstream as the country moves slowly to the right.

[sharonbn]

maybe you didn't read all the interview.

Noam Federman supports the hanging of Yossi Beilin, Peres and other prominent leftist Jews, who are also innocent civillians. He'll "gladly" do it himself.
so, he actually DOES support the killing of innocent civillians.
btw, death penalty in Israel was NEVER performed on Jews (the only person ever to be executed in Israel was the Nazi leader Adolf Aichman)

I dare not think what Federman teaches his children, but nothing will surprise me about that terrorist criminal brute psychopath anymore.

[Givaty]

Maybe you forget there is more to speech,
there are many americans who will say "Sure, I'd kill bush, I'll do it myself" or such to the effect. THis doesnt mean they will actually do it or ever plan to think of doing it.
And I wouldnt call Yossi Beilin "innocent"

[sharonbn]

Yossi Beilin is innocent because he did not kill anyone or intend to do so, or incite other to do so.

You may believe he was wrong signing the Oslo accord. but you don't seem to knoe the difference between an error and criminal intent.

This cannot be said about people like Fedrman (committed to house arrest after initiating violent riots in Hebron), Marzel (leader of the outlawed Kach movement) or their friends: Yigal Amir, Baruch Goldstein, Yona Avrushmi, Ami Poper ......
THEY are not innocent

I guess the difference between a criminal and Beilin is too small for you to notice.

In my eyes, the difference between Federman and a Hamas terrorist is too small to notice.

[Givaty]

I never said Beilin was a criminal.

[sharonbn]

so he is innocent without the qoutes.

[Mediocrates]

I only have two words for the Americans reading this:

Pat Buchanan

[Givaty]

No, he isnt innocent, he is "innocent."
That doesnt mean he is a criminal, it means he is "innocent."

Originally posted by sharonbn
so he is innocent without the qoutes.

[Communication]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I only have two words for the Americans reading this:

Pat Buchanan

what about Pat Buchanan? You wouldn't want him in charge of running the country, would you?

[Mediocrates]

No of course not but he's given pretty much free reign to spout whatever crackpot insanity he wants on national television. It's a vagary of history that WE don't have a Parliamentary system which would elect Pat to something. Of course he's only interested in national office so we're safe for now.

[alexbmn]

well is it true that Beilin and Peres circumvented the Israeli political process in forcing the Knesset to adopt the accords? I heard they did. If they did they should be put on trial. Oslo has cost 1100 people their lives in ten years which is much much more then the number of victims during the TWENTY SEVEN YEARS of the military administration.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Givaty
No, he isnt innocent, he is "innocent."
That doesnt mean he is a criminal, it means he is "innocent."

You are making no sense.

Beilin is innocent because, as I've said before, he did what he thought was best for the country. He never incited for violence against other Jews and Israelis.

He was sent officially to negotiate with the enemy by appointment from the elected government of Israel. The Oslo agreement was signed and endorsed by that same elected government, and by the one following it, and by the one following it. There were however other Jews who could not accept the decisions of this elected government and chose violence, incitement, and ultimately, murder in order to express their objection.

No one from the Israeli left has yet gone thus far as to kill or suggest killing of Jews. Such "methods" were only implemented by the Israeli extreme right.

So, Beilin is innocent. If he was wrong or not, that is for history to judge. and history has yet to say the final word on the matter. Even if you believe Oslo was a mistake this does not render it a crime or even a "crime", whatever this means.

[Miriam]

[keren7]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by strategist
[B]What a pleasant person.

"Needless to say, he is as much a problem as Hamas".

I don't think these people who wish to live in Hebron are a problem as much as the hamas. We, jews have a right to be in Hebron. We were there long before Muhammad was a twinkle in his mother's eyes. Throughout history the muslims invaded the place, built some mosques on top of our holy places and that's that, they took full claim to the place. We Israelis are at least prepared to share common worship places but these pals won't even consider having jews among them. So the way I see it, if they want us out of there, they must also pack up from Jerusalem and must go wherever they want, I don't really care.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by keren7
I don't think these people who wish to live in Hebron are a problem as much as the hamas. We, jews have a right to be in Hebron. We were there long before Muhammad was a twinkle in his mother's eyes. Throughout history the muslims invaded the place, built some mosques on top of our holy places and that's that, they took full claim to the place. We Israelis are at least prepared to share common worship places but these pals won't even consider having jews among them. So the way I see it, if they want us out of there, they must also pack up from Jerusalem and must go wherever they want, I don't really care.

Keren, you either didn't bother to read the interview or missed the issue.
The issue here is not the justification of Jews to live in Hebron, but the way thee people express their belief and political ideology.

you say Jews are tolerant towards Pals? don't make me laugh (or more likely, cry). The interview with Federman shows how some Jews are intolerant towards other Jews, to the point of incitement for murder.

[keren7]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Keren, you either didn't bother to read the interview or missed the issue.
The issue here is not the justification of Jews to live in Hebron, but the way thee people express their belief and political ideology.

you say Jews are tolerant towards Pals? don't make me laugh (or more likely, cry). The interview with Federman shows how some Jews are intolerant towards other Jews, to the point of incitement for murder. "


The issue is whether we can live in Hebron, very much so. You don't have a clue about our tolerance for the pals. No jew attacks a pal for no reason. We don't shoot at them while they drive, we don't blow up in their faces, we don't blow their brains out while knocking on their families doors at home.

Yes, some jews are intolerant to other jews just like other christians, muslims, etc are intolerant towards their own kind, so what? we are people just like any other. Everyone expects us to be these angels, we musn't have criminals, we musn't have prostitues, scandals and so on and so forth. Well guess what, we are very normal human beings with faults. But that has nothing to do with the pal situation. We are the ones who live with 1.5mil arabs in Israel while the pals want a pure muslim country free of jews. Please, I live in Israel, I know the enemy better than you and certainly better than Friedman.

[danholo]

sharonbn lives in Israel too...

I also agree that Jews are allowed to live in Hebron (considering they were expelled from there over 70 years ago) but their behavior there is immoral. They're connecting Kiryat Arba with the settlement in Hebron when at the same time Palestinian homes are being bulldozed for "security" reasons.

I don't understand though why Palestinians are allowed to demand a Jew-free West Bank...

[keren7]

Originally posted by danholo
sharonbn lives in Israel too...

I also agree that Jews are allowed to live in Hebron (considering they were expelled from there over 70 years ago) but their behavior there is immoral. They're connecting Kiryat Arba with the settlement in Hebron when at the same time Palestinian homes are being bulldozed for "security" reasons.

I don't understand though why Palestinians are allowed to demand a Jew-free West Bank...

Hebron is an ancient place, more than 70 years times 70. The arabs are selfish inhumane people, that's all I can say. If the jews of Hebron are left alone, they will not bother anyone, which they try as we speak, but they are provoked over and over.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by keren7
The issue is whether we can live in Hebron, very much so. You don't have a clue about our tolerance for the pals. No jew attacks a pal for no reason. We don't shoot at them while they drive, we don't blow up in their faces, we don't blow their brains out while knocking on their families doors at home.

Yes, some jews are intolerant to other jews just like other christians, muslims, etc are intolerant towards their own kind, so what? we are people just like any other. Everyone expects us to be these angels, we musn't have criminals, we musn't have prostitues, scandals and so on and so forth. Well guess what, we are very normal human beings with faults. But that has nothing to do with the pal situation. We are the ones who live with 1.5mil arabs in Israel while the pals want a pure muslim country free of jews. Please, I live in Israel, I know the enemy better than you and certainly better than Friedman.

a. I live in Israel. so get off that tree.

b. I don't know where do you live, but let me inform you that "We", Israelis, actually have shot Pals, blowen them up, etc. Remember Baruch Goldstein?? Ami Popper?? the Jewish underground????? so get off that tree as well.

c. I don't know where you draw your standards for saying "we are people just like any other" But someone who incites for violence against their political opponent and say they will gladly hang him in their own hands - THIS IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOUR IN ANY COUNTRY UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES

d. Its Federman, not Friedman.

[keren7]

Originally posted by sharonbn
a. I live in Israel. so get off that tree.

b. I don't know where do you live, but let me inform you that "We", Israelis, actually have shot Pals, blowen them up, etc. Remember Baruch Goldstein?? Ami Popper?? the Jewish underground????? so get off that tree as well.

c. I don't know where you draw your standards for saying "we are people just like any other" But someone who incites for violence against their political opponent and say they will gladly hang him in their own hands - THIS IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOUR IN ANY COUNTRY UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES

d. Its Federman, not Friedman.

I do live in Israel, for your information, and as a matter of fact I have a son in the army too. Yes, we do shoot pals in combat, but not without provocation. So it's better if you get down to earth because we jews need a slap in the face every 50 years or so, to realize that if we don't defend ourselves we will slowly but surely die off. I will not defend the pals under no circumstance, they are killers and jew haters. When they'll calm down I might change my views about them. For now, I regard them as my arch enemy.

Oh, and sorry for Federman, I had the other wise guy in mind called Friedman.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by keren7
I do live in Israel, for your information, and as a matter of fact I have a son in the army too. Yes, we do shoot pals in combat, but not without provocation.

The mass murderer Baruch Goldstein shot innocent civillians while they were praying in a holy place, sacred for Jews and muslims. His vicious attack was unprovoked. This was not combat situation.

Ami Popper shot 7 innocent workers, trying to find some work to feed their family. He also was unprovoked. This was not combat situation.

The first Jewish underground shot Palestinian girls in a schoolyard. The attack was unprovoked. This was not combat situation.

The second Jewish underground planted a bomb car in the entrance to a Palestinian school. The attack was unprovoked. This was not combat situation.

Yigal Amir murdered an elected Israeli Prime minister. He was unprovoked. This was not combat situation.

Yona Avrushmi threw a granade that killed an innocent Israeli, Emil Grintzweig. The attack was unprovoked. This was not combat situation.

Noam Federman declared he will gladly wrap the rope around Beilin.

I am not defending the Palestinians, nor do I object to Israeli actions against them (notice I did not mention Salah Shchade, for instance, or the operation in Jenin - these are legitimate defensive operations) so don't twist what I said as if I defend Palestinian terrorism.

But the ends does NOT jusity the means. meaning, if Jews are being attacked by Palestinian terrorist groups - that does not justifies Jewish terrorism. there are rules of war. If your enemy chooses to break the rules and commit war crimes, that does not entitle you to do the same. not morally and certainly not legally.

[keren7]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sharonbn
[B]The mass murderer Baruch Goldstein shot innocent civillians while they were praying in a holy place, sacred for Jews and muslims. His vicious attack was unprovoked. This was not combat situation.

Ami Popper shot 7 innocent workers, trying to find some work to feed their family. He also was unprovoked. This was not combat situation.

The first Jewish underground shot Palestinian girls in a schoolyard. The attack was unprovoked. This was not combat situation.

The second Jewish underground planted a bomb car in the entrance to a Palestinian school. The attack was unprovoked. This was not combat situation.

Yigal Amir murdered an elected Israeli Prime minister. He was unprovoked. This was not combat situation.

Yona Avrushmi threw a granade that killed an innocent Israeli, Emil Grintzweig. The attack was unprovoked. This was not combat situation.

Noam Federman declared he will gladly wrap the rope around Beilin.

You named around 7-8 radicals. I do not defend them nor their acts, but these 7-8-9 jewish killers are perhaps .001% compared to the numbers of pals who want and are trying daily to kill us. If you truly live in Israel you know that daily, daily, would be suiciders are caught, two days ago a booby trapped car was discovered with 400KG of explosives. These news don't even reach the outskirts of Israel, people do not hear about it.

I cannot feel sorry for people who are trying to kill me. The pals had ample oportunity to create a state of their own but what they want is a state in place of Israel. I don't buy all the lovely leftist stories, I've been there and I left. With the Barak era, I've closed my chapter where undertsanding and compassion were part of the vocabulary. I voted Barak, and nothing worse could've happened than what it has happened. Also the fact that Sharon went to Temple Mountain and the apparent cause for the intifada is nothing but bull. We have a right to walk on every ground in Jerusalem just as mush as the muslims. We don't kill the muslims for claiming Temple Mountain as if it is a G-d given gift to them.

They must change their ruler and commander in chief, they must reform first and then only we must sit down for talks with them.

[Givaty]

We are focusing on the behavior of a certain select group.
Those who live in Hevron. Now we can pretend and generalize every single one of them by calling them a few names. The media likes to use Settlers, Extremists..activists...
But this is absurd.
No, not everyone one who lives in Hevron is a "settler"(A term which seems to try to legitimacize murder against them), activists(which equates their use of "activists" with the homicide murderers who blow up children while they eat Pizza with their families), or extremists.
Secondly, the behavior of any group in any area isnt exactly something to glory about. Yes, the jews are human like anyone else. I may wear a Kipa, but I still like Pizza, sports, to have sugar-filled breakfast in the morning and I still have to take out my garbage.
There have been many times where I lose myself among the furor of a homicide bombing...it drives me to want to scream "DEATH TO ALL ARABS." but I dont.....
I know that tolerance is the key here.
In Hevron, they take out their trash, too. They watch sports, They probably eat pizza and have sugar in their breakfast, too.
The world holds us to a higher medium, they say the Syrians can be excused for their absolutely distasteful behavior for human rights and be elected to the Security Council of the UN. They say Libya, which we all know is horrid in its human rights, can head the Human Rights councils.
We see attacks on Jews in france while the french turn their heads and say "Anti-semitism? Where?"
but when it comes to our tiny extremists populations, we are condemned, we are hatred, they are apparent proof for the way Jews are evil.
Yes, we have extremists, as we have prostitutes and senators. We have garbagemen, we have rapists, we have janitors and schoolteachers. Imagine that!
The world doesnt seem to.
The behavior of those in Hevron isnt always 'up to par' and those who take it upon themselves to murder(Like Baruch Goldstein..etc..) are absouletly sick in their minds.
But if we want to talk about numbers, I can show you thousands of potential Baruch Goldsteins on the "palestinian" side who dont respect the sanctity of life or faith.
Mr. Goldstein proved himself to be a racist ammoral human, however, this isnt Hevron. Nor does this reflect Hevron Jews.
It doesnt reflect San Fransisco Jews. As knowledgable people, we know this. The world has forgotten it, I think.
While Israel has often refrained from attacking on Moslem celebrations and commemorations sanctified in Islam, we see the opposite not to be true.
The "palestinians" attack Hevron Jews every day, not stopping simply because its Sabbath. They attack Jews every day, especially on or right after Sabbath.
The end to that came with the Pesach massacre. YES< IT WAS A REAL MASSACRE. These "palestinians" proved themselves hatred-filled murderers who didnt care if Jews were in prayer or not. They proved themselves a thousand Baruch Goldsteins.
The context of which we see the Hevron Jews in, this changes perspective.
If you can't see the entire painting, step back.
It doesnt take a Superman to see it.
It will take the strength of 10 running trains to stop our extremist factions, but preaching for their death and equating them with those who have no sanctity for life(to train a snipers scope on a 10 month old and calmly squeeze back the trigger, releasing a round of silver into heir brain) or Faith(sabbath after sabbath after sabbath....), or soverignerty(ever see their maps? the map on Arafats arm? its not Yesha and Gaza, its ALL of Israel, they deny Israel exists, they destroy artifacts, Josephs Tomb....).
I dont remember a Jew taking aim at a 10 month old and squeezing the trigger with a smile, or (Besides our extremists terrorists, few and far inbetween who act on their sick desires) Israelis who express the desire to "drive the arabs into the sea."
Israel, dont teach their kids to murder and hate. There are no blood-covered 20 year old boys in pictures smiling for the world to see. There are no Jewish Al-Duras shot so the world can have someone to sympathize their cruel desires with. There are no Hamas equivilants, Hezbollah Equivilants..etc..

[Givaty]

I am not saying the extremism doesnt exist, but the opposite.
Yes, in Neve Yerushalayim, there was an attempted bombing of an arab school.
What is the difference here?
Our extremists were caught and are being prosecuted by the state, and by the culture/nation.
Theirs?
They are praised, they are sung about, they are loved, they are taught to kill more and more. They arent caught, they are given money. They are given 72 virgins in heaven, they are the heros.
We have Supermen, Sports Heros...they have their homicide murdering hands-covered-in-blood terrorists as heros.

[sharonbn]

Well people, I started this discussion after hearing Noam Federman.
You two (Givati and Keren) are trying to take the discussion into Palestinian terrorism, while trying to belittle expressions of hate like Federman's statements.

There should be no ambiguity or hesitation or reservation when we judge Federman's statemenmts. Regarding the excuse "he spoke out of anger" - I can only say that he was speaking on national television, not to his friends. He was deliberatly provocative. If he wanted to express his anger he could have done so without inciting to kill innocent Jews.

We can debate the issue of Palestinian terrorism elsewhere. This discussion is about the extreme Israeli right. I believe we are not talking about 7-8-9 people. Murderes like Goldstein and hate-inciters like Federman are backed by a comunity which size I don't know, but estimate at a few 1,000s. I mean, Baruch Marzel, one of the leaders of Kach is now running for Knesset! so we're not talking about lunatic individuals.

Givati and Keren condemn me for generalising on the whole settler population. But at the same time, givati condemns "the French" for their anti-semitism, not taking into mind he's generalising on a whole nation, that does not support antisemitic actions.

I believe that

1. "Normal" (i.e. not fanatic) Israelis, who wish to live in peace and raise a family in relevant security, don't go to live in Hebron and the occupied terrotories. They choose to live within green-line Israel. The vast majority of Israelis who go ti live in Hebron, follow an extreme (and outdated) ideology of "Eretz Israel Hashlema".

2. You say settlers condemn Goldstein? well, why did they built a memorial garden for him?? why do they attempt to hold a memorial service for him every year (a ceremony that is explicitly forbiden by military order)

[keren7]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sharonbn
[B]Well people, I started this discussion after hearing Noam Federman.
You two (Givati and Keren) are trying to take the discussion into Palestinian terrorism, while trying to belittle expressions of hate like Federman's statements.

There should be no ambiguity or hesitation or reservation when we judge Federman's statemenmts. Regarding the excuse "he spoke out of anger" - I can only say that he was speaking on national television, not to his friends. He was deliberatly provocative. If he wanted to express his anger he could have done so without inciting to kill innocent Jews.

We can debate the issue of Palestinian terrorism elsewhere. This discussion is about the extreme Israeli right. I believe we are not talking about 7-8-9 people. Murderes like Goldstein and hate-inciters like Federman are backed by a comunity which size I don't know, but estimate at a few 1,000s. I mean, Baruch Marzel, one of the leaders of Kach is now running for Knesset! so we're not talking about lunatic individuals.

Givati and Keren condemn me for generalising on the whole settler population. But at the same time, givati condemns "the French" for their anti-semitism, not taking into mind he's generalising on a whole nation, that does not support antisemitic actions.

I believe that

1. "Normal" (i.e. not fanatic) Israelis, who wish to live in peace and raise a family in relevant security, don't go to live in Hebron and the occupied terrotories. They choose to live within green-line Israel. The vast majority of Israelis who go ti live in Hebron, follow an extreme (and outdated) ideology of "Eretz Israel Hashlema".

Oh, you only invite those who want to talk about Goldstein and Feldman? and according to you the palestinian issue belongs on another forum?

How many Goldsteins and Feldmans are there? I can however, tell you how many pal Goldsteins are out there running amok like lunatics- tens of thousands.

I live next to Jericho and I feel very good, why shouldn't I? should I be afraid that my car will get shot at? well I'm not. Why don't you suggest that all pals stay put in their PA and not cross over the green line? I see that you can warmly recommend us to stay behind the green lines-what is it, a one way road?

[merkava4]

I read the interview and I actually agree with Federman on most of the topics. Except for of course killing the leftists. As he sits in the settlements and as his neighbours are getting killed, the Leftist Politicians still condemn the settlers, tell them to get out, don't provide funding... All the while shaking hands with Arafat who is the one comitting these murders. If I were Federman I'd want to kill the man shaking hands with the murderer of my loved ones. By the way I'm not religious. So this is in no way connected to religious zealoutry. It's based on a realistic look at the situation.

[alexbmn]

I repeat ,I read in Jerusalem Post that they way Beilin and Peres got Oslo passed is by a single vote which was bought. They acted against the will of the people and for that they should be tried. Anyway SharonB here's a question. I hope you know that after the War of Independence Israel captured some lands that werent alotted to it by the UN .So why is it that that you dont call people who live there "fanatic settlers" while you apply that term to people living in the lands captured in 1967.Many of whom arent fanatic but live there because the land is cheaper.

Beilin's actions were indirectly responsible for the death's of how many 1200 already? Actually see Oslo transferred a huge amount of weaponry into the enemy's hand and restored to power a terrorist who's responsible for more Jews(civilains) being killed then anybody since Hitler. Hmm the indirectness is rather subtle here. If I were Federman I'd hate Beilin too.I wouldnt want him dead but imprisoned for sure.I wonder if Belin received a fraction of the terrible treatment Sharon got for his indirect involvement with Sabra and Shatilla.Beilin deserves much much more.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by merkava4
I read the interview and I actually agree with Federman on most of the topics. Except for of course killing the leftists. As he sits in the settlements and as his neighbours are getting killed, the Leftist Politicians still condemn the settlers, tell them to get out, don't provide funding... All the while shaking hands with Arafat who is the one comitting these murders. If I were Federman I'd want to kill the man shaking hands with the murderer of my loved ones. By the way I'm not religious. So this is in no way connected to religious zealoutry. It's based on a realistic look at the situation.

Not only settlers are getting killed. People in Tel Aviv, Netanya, Kfar Saba, Haifa and Jerusalem are getting killed also - but you don't hear them calling for the killing of other Jews, do you?

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by alexbmn
I repeat ,I read in Jerusalem Post that they way Beilin and Peres got Oslo passed is by a single vote which was bought. They acted against the will of the people and for that they should be tried.

This is total nonsense. First of all, the Oslo accord was endorsed by the Knesset not by a single vote, but by 60 in favor, 52 against and 8 absent. Secondly, all subsequant Israeli governments and parliaments endorsed the agreement, including Netanyahu's government, which signed the Wye agreement that set new dates to the implementation of the second and third withdrawls, mentioned in the Oslo agreement.
So to blame it all on Peres and Beilin is blindingly stupid.

Originally posted by alexbmn
Anyway SharonB here's a question. I hope you know that after the War of Independence Israel captured some lands that werent alotted to it by the UN .So why is it that that you dont call people who live there "fanatic settlers" while you apply that term to people living in the lands captured in 1967.Many of whom arent fanatic but live there because the land is cheaper.
The UN 181 resolution, a.k.a partition plan was declared null and void by Ben Gurion on Dec. 1948 and acknowledged by US foriegn secratery Dallas. There was never an official decision by any Israeli government to annex Gaza strip and West bank to become part of Israel.

Moreover, all land annexed during independence war, was conquered in battle during war time. Once hostilities ceased, Israel did not make a move to uproot the remaining Arabs, who became Israeli citizens.
This is not the case in 1967. The first settlement was erected near Hebron in 1974. This can not be justified as a result of war time or any provocation from the Palestinians. This was colonialism in its most blunt form. The settlements continued to flourish ever since, based on land confiscated from its Arab owners without compensation.
Do you get the difference?

Originally posted by alexbmn
Beilin's actions were indirectly responsible for the death's of how many 1200 already? Actually see Oslo transferred a huge amount of weaponry into the enemy's hand and restored to power a terrorist who's responsible for more Jews(civilains) being killed then anybody since Hitler. Hmm the indirectness is rather subtle here. If I were Federman I'd hate Beilin too.I wouldnt want him dead but imprisoned for sure.I wonder if Belin received a fraction of the terrible treatment Sharon got for his indirect involvement with Sabra and Shatilla.Beilin deserves much much more.

a. As I've written before, Beilin is not the sole responsible for the peace process. Remember it was Netanyahu who gave hebron. He was not tricked or coarsed by Peres because Peres had no influence at that time.

b. When Beilin was negtiating with the Pals, he was acting as an official representative of the elected Israeli government. The Oslo agreement was confirmed both by the government and by the Knesset. So pleae, enough with the historical distortion that puts all the intifadah on the shoulders of Beilin. The Oslo agreement is the responsibility of the Israeli government led by Rabin and the whole Israeli knesset of 1992 that represented the people's will at the time.

c. Sharon was not trialed for Sabra and Shatila. there was an official comittee that investigated the events surrounding the masacre and one of its results put the blame on Sharon, the defense minister of the time.

an example of the absurdity of your claims can be viewed if you think about British PM Chamberlain, who signed an agreement with Hitler, that was later proven to be a mistake. No one ever sugested Chamberlain should be trailed for the millions killed during WWII.
I'm not comparing the Oslo agreement with Chamberlain's paper, only the reaction of people.

[merkava4]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Not only settlers are getting killed. People in Tel Aviv, Netanya, Kfar Saba, Haifa and Jerusalem are getting killed also - but you don't hear them calling for the killing of other Jews, do you?

Yes, Israelis are getting killed everywhere. The Israelis in Tel Aviv would be quite angry if Peres or Mitzna or some other leftist shmuck was offering chunks of Tel Aviv to Arafat after every suicide bombing. At the same token the Israelis on the "settlements" are angry since after every murder on their homes the leftist politicians threaten to give away their land. Giving up the settlements as Mitzna wants will only lead to a civil war between the Jews while at the same time a war with the Arabs. Talk about unity.

[I am David]

Sharonbn, please give me a list of all the Arabs, meaning specific people/bussiness/groups who had their private land taken away from them by Israeli government endorsed settlements.

Or perhaps just a few documented examples.

Thank you.

[alexbmn]

Ha HA THE land captured during the Six Day war was also captured in battle during WARTIME OR maybe you missed the word "WAR" in SIX DAY "WAR. Oh and in 1974 Israel was formally in a state of war with every Arab State.No peace treaties were signed. And the Palestininans were engaged in terror full throttle. Annexing the land would be a problem since Israel had to maintain their Jewish majority. After all there were 2 million Arabs in the west bank and Gaza not a few thousands.

Dont even mention the word colonialism. Judea and Samaria isnt some remote land which Israel decided to occupy in order to grow its ego or deprive it of its resourses.Its a land to which Jews have a deep historical connection,where there was some Jewish presence for 2000 years and where the people who settled there decided to live there permanently.I fail to see why they are different from the people who came in the beginning of the century.Oh and for the last time this wasnt Palestinian land.It was under military occupation of Jordan which acquired it in an agressive war,and yet for some reason nobody had a problem with it. There was no independent coiuntry called Palestine under Israeli occupation. Israel acquired it in a defensive war,it is Israel's land. And you know there were Arabs dispossed in both wars,but not too many.In my opinion Israel owes nothing to the people who always worked for its destruction,who rejected every peace treaty,it owes nothing to its enemies. But to say that settlements are built in 100 percent confiscated land is an outright lie.

Who do you think advocated starting the settlements,the Mapai party did.The pragmatic, non extremist, non messianic, party. According to th Allon plan Israel settlements in the west Bank would form a defense line down the Jordan valley around Jerusalem and southward to the Hebron Hills ,delineating an Arab state surrounded by Israeli territory. And thats how it happened.

Your comparison with Chamberlen doesnt hold water.Yes he tried to contain Hitler through appeasement,but at least he didnt give him extra weapons or increased his power.Oslo bought Arafat back from nothing and gave him land to contol ,to plant the seeds of the culture of death and hatred. Hitler already was in a position of power. And you know the Munich pact is known as the most infamous case of appeasement.Who now speaks of Chamberlen in positive terms? Nobody. He was replaced by Churchill quickly and was gone from the scene.

and finally this is what it said in Jpost which I happen to believe
"Much of the Israeli public will never forgive Labor for carrying the Oslo agreement through the Knesset on the strength of a one-vote majority (and a bought vote at that). Nor will they forgive Shimon Peres, Ehud Barak, Yossi Beilin and others for the imperious and manipulative way in which they pursued their version of the national interest."

Didnt Rabin say that if the Palestinians went back to terror the the Army will go back.It didnt happen.Nataniahu, well he was a disappointment, and the people no longer trust him. Labor lied to the Israeli people and the public fell for it. Its "good intentions" wont bring back those 1200 dead.Yeah its not direct involvement but its criminal negligence.Or ignorance.

[merkava4]

Don't listen to the leftists, they might as well live in syria. They would be treated nice there. Judea and Samaria will never go back to the Palestinians. Have any of you leftists ever been to a bazaar, they dont look at contracts, agreements, they dont. all they like is money. the only reason mubarak is keeping with begin's peace treaty is because USA pays them $3 billion a year. The arabs dont agree with treaties. That is their culture that is their way of life, and i dont blame them. but as jews we must overcome the enemy. we must not listen to them. their only goal is to trick us. i dont care if you're labor, likud, herut, meretz,you must all realize the trick they are playing, that is their goal, their strategy. i know i lived with many of them. they hate israel. personally they were okay people. but they hated israel, agreed with suicide bombings.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by I am David
Sharonbn, please give me a list of all the Arabs, meaning specific people/bussiness/groups who had their private land taken away from them by Israeli government endorsed settlements.
Or perhaps just a few documented examples.
Thank you.

I'll give you one very famous example.
The example is not about GS or WB, but it shows the capability of Israeli governments to confiscate land without any justification and without any compensation for the owner.

The case is about two Arab villages, Ikrit and Bira'am. The case is famous because it was debated several times by the government and Knesset and in the courts.

The two villages housed Christian Arabs (~500 total) that were not hostile towards Israel. In 1948, IDF requested that the inhabitants evacuate the villages "for a short while, until the security situation is stabilized". The villagers agreed and moved to neighboring villages.
The 1948 was ended and IDF did not allow the villagers to return.

In 1951, the High Court ruled that the villagers were allowed to return "as long as no emergency decree" against it has been issued. The government hastened to issue such a decree against the Ikrit evacuees, and two months later, the IDF blew up houses in that village. In 1953, it blew up the houses of Biram. Only the churches of the two villages were left standing. Two years later, the land of the two villages - 16,000 dunam in Ikrit and 12,000 dunam in Biram - were annexed to newly established Israeli Kibutz and villages.

In February 1997, the evacuees petitioned the High Court of Justice, which gave the government time to "examine the issue." In mid-1998, the court issued a temporary injunction ordering the government to report its position within 90 days. Since then, the government has received three further delays.

to date, the issue of the villages of Ikrit and Biram is unresolved.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by alexbmn
Ha HA THE land captured during the Six Day war was also captured in battle during WARTIME OR maybe you missed the word "WAR" in SIX DAY "WAR.

a. The difference I was referring to was that after the 1948 war ended, Israel did not confiscate Arab land from its owners, except for a few extraordinary cases. The situation in GS and WB remained stable until the settlers started moving in in 1974.

b. Israel signed the Geneva convention from 1949 that regulates land ownership and economic annomalies that rise as result of land conquered by war. in 1948 there was no int'l law governing these issues.

Originally posted by alexbmn
Your comparison with Chamberlen doesnt hold water.Yes he tried to contain Hitler through appeasement,but at least he didnt give him extra weapons or increased his power.Oslo bought Arafat back from nothing and gave him land to contol ,to plant the seeds of the culture of death and hatred. Hitler already was in a position of power. And you know the Munich pact is known as the most infamous case of appeasement.Who now speaks of Chamberlen in positive terms? Nobody. He was replaced by Churchill quickly and was gone from the scene.
the point I was making was not to compare the Chamberlain paper with Oslo accord. The point was that official representatives of elected governments who sign treaties that are accepted by the parliament are not criminals.
and for the last time, Beilin and Peres are not "responsible" for Oslo agrement. They were sent officially by the duely elected Israeli government.

Originally posted by alexbmn
and finally this is what it said in Jpost which I happen to believe
"Much of the Israeli public will never forgive Labor for carrying the Oslo agreement through the Knesset on the strength of a one-vote majority (and a bought vote at that). Nor will they forgive Shimon Peres, Ehud Barak, Yossi Beilin and others for the imperious and manipulative way in which they pursued their version of the national interest."
This is called manipulative propoganda based on a lie. I already gave the results of the vote of the Oslo agreement in the Knesset. taken from Haaretz newspaper of Sept. 1993.

Originally posted by alexbmn
Nataniahu, well he was a disappointment, and the people no longer trust him.
Maybe Netanyahu should be put on trial also. Put everyone who disapoint you on trial.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by merkava4
[B]Don't listen to the leftists, they might as well live in syria. They would be treated nice there.
Don't listen to the rightist. They might as well live in Germany. They would be treated nice there.

Originally posted by merkava4
Judea and Samaria will never go back to the Palestinians.
I am glad to break the news to you - the colonialist dream of "Eretz Israel hashlema" is over. NOBODY believes in it anymore. not even the likud. The future peace agrement with the Pals will include Israeli withdrawl from most of the occupied territories.

I will not dignify the rest of your racist statements with an answer.

[merkava4]

Me treated nice in Germany, yes now I would be. Why? Because there were people who took a stand against evil, who fought against an enemy that killed innocent people on purpose. You are calling the settlements a colony?!? When we withdraw from the "settlements". Guess who will be the next "Settlers"? You will! You are extremely naive. I went to an Israeli-Arab debate at my university, great learning institution! (hah yeah right). Not only did the Arab speaker call the Israelis nazis he used the same argument you did that Israel is a colony. You call the settlements a colony. He called all of Israel a colony and said Israel will be no more soon with a sly grin. PLus he said that Haifa, Jerusalem, and Tel Aviv are also settlements. Jews like you are perfect for Arabs. They see your weakness, realize you're a traitor of their enemy and use you until you are dead. Now you accuse me of being a nazi just like the terrorist accused me.

[I am David]

No no sharonbn, you misunderstood my request.

I was asking for land confiscated by the Israeli government in West Bank and Gaza settlments, after the Six-Day, not some domestic incident. Please, do tell.

[alexbmn]

wasnt there a a minor "intifada" in 1970 I think quickly put down by Sharon? Oh wasnt there a terrorist act as result of which some 20 + schoolchildren were killed in 1972.And lets not forget the Munich Massacre and others,Oh yeah all was quiet on the Western Front and the PLO apparently stood for Peace and Love Organization. All until that dastardly day in 1974 .I hope you at least know that the PLo was founded in 1964. Do you know which "settlement" they were hoping to destroy then"? Just remember they were planned and mandated by the Mapai not Gush Emunim.Just keep that in mind.

So you are basing your opinion on Haaretz. The newspaper which has Amira Haas,Gideon Levy and Akiva Eldar.The newspaper which has actively trying these past few weeks to bring down Sharon,but of course keeping Mitzna's transgressions in the dark. It's reporting could rival the Guardian in its "lack of bias". In many cases it does. Palestinians read it to get all the days news.

[Mediocrates]

sharonb I'd like your read on Shinui. We're hearing here they are poised to charge ahead of Labor to be the #2 party. Is that for real?

[elke]

Yet again we find ourselves ready to metaphorically speaking, slit each other's throat. "Don't listen to the lefties", "Don't listen to the far-right" - Come ON, people! You are on the same side here!

The main goal, that of continued existence of the Jewish state of Israel, is common to both of you, can't you see that? Can't you see that the ultimate size, final borders, settlements or lack thereof, cruelties or lack thereof, are all secondary issues that can - and must - be discussed reasonably and as unemotionally as possible, as they are not fundamental issues. You are letting others, in some cases enemies, define the scope and depth of this conflict.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by I am David
No no sharonbn, you misunderstood my request.
I was asking for land confiscated by the Israeli government in West Bank and Gaza settlments, after the Six-Day, not some domestic incident. Please, do tell.

a. Go reread the story of Ikrit and Biram (search the Internet if you like). This is NOT "some domestoc issue" but the most famous example where Israeli government performed "de-facto" transfer to two non hostile Arab villages.

b. I searched the net briefly and could not find concrete examples where settlements were built on confiscated land (I mean examples not taken from Palestinian propoganda sites)
I am willing to concede and state that I found no evidence to support this claim. However, personally I remain unconvinced as to the justification of the settlements, but this is my private opinion.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
sharonb I'd like your read on Shinui. We're hearing here they are poised to charge ahead of Labor to be the #2 party. Is that for real?

latest polls indicate Shinui is 16-17 mandates, no more than 2-3 mandates behind Labour.
I decided to vote for them some 2 months ago. I gave up hope on finding a solution to the Palestinian problem in the next decade and decided to focus on social and economic issues, like seperation of state from religion, "clean" politics, etc.

[Mediocrates]

thanks, what do they offer in that sphere, for those of us who don't know?

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
thanks, what do they offer in that sphere, for those of us who don't know?
http://www.shinui.org.il/elections/eng/index.html

[Miriam]

Originally posted by sharonbn
http://www.shinui.org.il/elections/eng/index.html Do they have a record of performing what they preach?

[Miriam]

Originally posted by sharonbn


Don't listen to the rightist. They might as well live in Germany. They would be treated nice there.ROFL. Have you ever been in Germany?

[Miriam]

Originally posted by elke

The main goal, that of continued existence of the Jewish state of Israel, is common to both of you, can't you see that? Can't you see that the ultimate size, final borders, settlements or lack thereof, cruelties or lack thereof, are all secondary issues that can - and must - be discussed reasonably and as unemotionally as possible, as they are not fundamental issues. You are letting others, in some cases enemies, define the scope and depth of this conflict.I must admit that I always find it better when the righties and the lefties sort it out among each other than with their respective international friends ;)

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Miriam
Do they have a record of performing what they preach?

In the Hebrew section of the Shinui website, they list the law proposals that Shinui KMs submitted in the last Knesset, since its forming in Feb. 2001.

There are some 120 proposals, 33 of them approved 48 of them passed first voting (every law is voted three times in the Knesset)

Among the approved laws:

“Commissioner of the next generations” (Tommy Lapid). A new governmental position to be occupied by an academic figure that will submit reports and expert opinion regarding the affect of proposals on unborn children. The intent behind this is to protect the future generations from laws that serve the immediate interests of the populace, in areas such as Ecology, Genetic engineering, child welfare, etc.

“Vindication in public media” (Tommy Lapid). The law requires the public media to issue a formal statement regarding public figures accused of criminal acts and then vindicated by the court, in order to publicly clean their name.

“Bezeq law” (addition) (Avraham Poraz). The law regulates the places were satellite dishes are allowed to be installed, in order to protect the environment.

“Right to be elected” (amendment) (Yehudit Naot). The law states that evry person who is accused of criminal act and is sentenced to an imprisonment term of 3 months or more, cannot run for the Knesset or municipal mayor office for seven years after his release.

“City hall law” (amendment) (Yehudit Naot). Several sections of the law were amended to give more freedom and independence to the city critic, to regulate standards for determining municipal positions, to force city hall to report its operations in the press on a regular basis, to set maximum time for city hall when answering public inquires, etc.

“Law of lawn of school books” (Yehudit Naot). Schools will now hold a stock of books for lawn to families who cannot afford to buy new books. Law is now operative in 100 schools.

“Law of planning of new housing projects” (Yehudit Naot). The law requires an entrepreneur to submit a report on the affect of a proposed new housing project on the environment.

“Law of election propaganda” (Yosef Paritzky) The law sets boundaries for election propaganda. Among other things, the law forbids the use of children, soldiers and terror casualties.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Miriam
ROFL. Have you ever been in Germany?

Miriam,
a. Yes I was. what's your point?
b. I was answering a provocation from Merkava4, stating that "Don't listen to the leftists, they might as well live in syria. They would be treated nice there"
have YOU ever been to Syria???

[Miriam]

Originally posted by sharonbn


a. Yes I was. what's your point?
b. I was answering a provocation from Merkava4, stating that "Don't listen to the leftists, they might as well live in syria. They would be treated nice there"
have YOU ever been to Syria???Simply because German, like most Europeans, adore Israeli leftists. I understood the context, but the exact phrasing was funny ;)
In the Hebrew section of the Shinui website, they list the law proposals that Shinui KMs submitted in the last Knesset, since its forming in Feb. 2001.Thanks. Do they also have a record in the executive?

Pardon my inquisitiveness, I recall a series of Ha'aretz articles tearing away at Tommy Lapid.