The false democracy [Archive]

NewsGuy

02-23-2002, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by fair
did Israel has real democracy .. ?
did arab Israeli cetizens enjoy the so called democracy .. ?
did the unjewish Israeli cetizins enjoy this democracy .. ?
I doubt that .. !

Well, you may doubt that, but if you look at the facts, then it is a different story.

Of course Israel is a democracy. Not only a democracy, but a liberal democracy at that.

Just becuase you disagree with the policies of the Israeli government, doesn't mean that it is not a democracy.

As for the Arabs living in Israel, they too enjoy that Israeli democracy.

Like any other Israeli citizens, Arabs are given:

- freedom of speech
- freedom to elect their own members of parliament
- government subsidies for education
- welfare payments for poor Arabs
- unemployment benefits
- subsidized health care

All this, at the expense of the Israeli tax payer.

And I would also remind you that these freedoms given to Arabs living in Israel are things that are not available to ANY Arabs living in their own corrupt Arab dictatorships.

As you know very well, when an Arab living in Egypt or Syria opens his/her mouth to criticise their corrupt government, their secret police kicks in their door in middle of the night and they "disappear" into an Arab jail, where all they will hear for the next many years is the screams of the tortured prisoners, at the hands of their own Arab brothers.

Still, Israeli Arabs are mostly ungrateful that they are living with more freedom in Israel than they would get in any other Arab country. And if they think that it would be better there, then like you say in Arabic "tfadal", they are welcome to go elsewhere.

takeo

02-23-2002, 08:32 AM

If Israel is really a democracy, than all this facilities and equal rights for minorities are just natural, and nobody needs to be "gratefull". unfortunately this facilities exist mostly on paper only and Israeli Palestinians are still being discriminated and in the parliament there is a "cordon sanitaire" against their parties.
Even much worse is that millions of palestinians who live in what is considered Israel (by Israeli themselves only) have no rights at all, for 35 years already.

takeo

02-23-2002, 08:42 AM

besides in a real democracy religious people don't get all kinds of legal advantages as in Israel, demonstraters are not being shot at and torture is illegal. A real democracy would also subscribe the un-resolutions and the Geneva-conventions.

fair

02-23-2002, 01:54 PM

dear NewsGuy
realy I'am admired
how a country based on religion and army would be a democracy
how a country known as .. the army state of Israel
and u are determined that it's democracy
regard's

NewsGuy

02-23-2002, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by takeo

1. If Israel is really a democracy, than all this facilities and equal rights for minorities are just natural, and nobody needs to be "gratefull".

2. unfortunately this facilities exist mostly on paper only and Israeli Palestinians are still being discriminated and in the parliament there is a "cordon sanitaire" against their parties.

3. Even much worse is that millions of palestinians who live in what is considered Israel (by Israeli themselves only) have no rights at all, for 35 years already.

1. First of all "if" doesn't apply here. When there is a multi-party election system with fair election process, then a country is considered a democracy. Secondly, I think that the Arabs living in Israel should, indeed, be grateful to the Israeli taxpayer who provides the Arabs with all these social benefits, especially in light of their open support of countries that are at war with Israel.

2. On paper?? Please name even one single item that I listed that is not, in fact, granted to Arabs living in Israel.

3. Well, you can't have it both ways. If those territories are to be considered as part of Israel and the UN would recognize those territories as such, then the Arabs living there will receive the full benefits of living in the Israeli liberal democratic system. But do you really expect the Israeli taxpayer to support the Arabs of Qalqilia and Jenin? That's pretty comical, no? Maybe Syria should pay university tuition for the students of Tel Aviv. :D

NewsGuy

02-23-2002, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by fair
dear NewsGuy
realy I'am admired
how a country based on religion and army would be a democracy
how a country known as .. the army state of Israel
and u are determined that it's democracy
regard's

Dear Fair,

I'm not sure there is a problem having a Jewish homeland that is a democracy and defended by an army.

Why not?

takeo

02-23-2002, 10:19 PM

"1. First of all "if" doesn't apply here. When there is a multi-party election system with fair election process, then a country is considered a democracy. "

Not necessarily, Yougoslavia had a multi-party system too with a fair election process, so does Turkey or Guatemala for example.

"Secondly, I think that the Arabs living in Israel should, indeed, be grateful to the Israeli taxpayer who provides the Arabs with all these social benefits, especially in light of their open support of countries that are at war with Israel. "

In a democracy everyone has the right to express their own view, this shouldn't give them less rights.

"2. On paper?? Please name even one single item that I listed that is not, in fact, granted to Arabs living in Israel. "

They receive all this, and the laws do exist, yet they are discriminated in daily life, they are not getting the same chances for work-opportunity, they get (per child) less subsidies than an average israeli student, wich is in contradiction to the democratic principles, they are often discriminated and yelled after in daily life by average israeli, are refused entry in many places, are sometimes victim of organised anti-arab racist riots, destroying shops and homes, etc.

"3. Well, you can't have it both ways. If those territories are to be considered as part of Israel and the UN would recognize those territories as such, then the Arabs living there will receive the full benefits of living in the Israeli liberal democratic system. But do you really expect the Israeli taxpayer to support the Arabs of Qalqilia and Jenin? That's pretty comical, no? Maybe Syria should pay university tuition for the students of Tel Aviv. "

Israel can't have it both ways either, or it is a part of Israel and they should have the same right as israeli citizens(at least if israel want to pretend to be a democracy), or it should become independant(as is the only international lawful decision). Yet, according to your constitution it's a part of israel, a part in which the citizens have no rights. So it means Israel is not a democracy.

NewsGuy

02-24-2002, 10:45 AM

"Not necessarily, Yougoslavia had a multi-party system too with a fair election process, so does Turkey or Guatemala for example."

ok, if those countries have a free election system reflecting popular voting opinion and personal freedoms, then they are democracies. You have to realize that the fact that you don't like the policies of some countries doesn't make them a democracy or not. There is a very narrow definition of what makes for a democracy.

"In a democracy everyone has the right to express their own view, this shouldn't give them less rights."

Yes, that is true to an extene, but as you probably may know, in a democracy, there is no such thing as absolute freedom for everyone to say what they want, when they want to. There are specific laws that govern the freedom of speech in all democracies.

For example, a military officer is NOT entitled to tell that countires military secrets to an enemy. That's called treason.

And, as former Chief Justice of the US Supreme court Oliver Wendel Holmes onece ruled "you cannot yell fire on a crowded theater."

There are also other limitations of freedom of speech.

Many Arabs in Israel have crossed the line, including their elected members of Knesset, who openly support Israel's enemies. That's treason, and they should be very thankful that Israel is not only a democracy, but a liberal democracy at that.

Also, the fact is that while they benefit from the Israeli taxpayer's generosity, the Arabs did not participate in building up and developing Israel, like Israel's Jews have.

So the Arabs should be very grateful for what they are getting from Israel, because they have not contributed equally.

"They receive all this, and the laws do exist, yet they are discriminated in daily life..."

bs. On a regular basis, I read in the Isralei newspapers that one Jewish municipality or another is always complaining that they are not getting their fair share of the governments social benefits. So the Arabs are also complaining about the same stuff that towns like Ashdod, Beer Sheva, Netivot, etc. are unhappy with. Such is life. Everyone would like to get more.

But in a capitalist society like Israel, everyone, including Arabs have the chance of making money for themselves, instead of begging for government charity. They can be as rich as they want, or as poor as they want. It has to do with hard work, not communist-style handouts that kill people's motivation to succeed on their own.

takeo

02-24-2002, 01:20 PM

"ok, if those countries have a free election system reflecting popular voting opinion and personal freedoms, then they are democracies. You have to realize that the fact that you don't like the policies of some countries doesn't make them a democracy or not. There is a very narrow definition of what makes for a democracy. "

The us doesn't consider Yougoslavia a democracy, and in Turkey one can just be arrested for saying that kurdistan should have the right to be independant. In Guatemala being a trade-union means being treatened or murdered by right-wing para-military. So free elections doesn't always mean democracy.

"Yes, that is true to an extene, but as you probably may know, in a democracy, there is no such thing as absolute freedom for everyone to say what they want, when they want to. There are specific laws that govern the freedom of speech in all democracies.

There are also other limitations of freedom of speech.

Many Arabs in Israel have crossed the line, including their elected members of Knesset, who openly support Israel's enemies. That's treason, and they should be very thankful that Israel is not only a democracy, but a liberal democracy at that. "

No, actually they are not in official duty and they have the right to express ther opinion in newspapers or declarations(not in the opera i agree ;) ). If in france someone says "fuch the president" than he is entitled to do so, if israeli palestinians are demonstrating against israeli policy than they should have the right to do so, otherwise israel isn't a democracy. If someone preferes arafat over sharon he must have the right to do so. I agree that in Cuba freedom of speech in public is lacking, which is a shortcoming.

"Also, the fact is that while they benefit from the Israeli taxpayer's generosity, the Arabs did not participate in building up and developing Israel, like Israel's Jews have. "

they have payed taxes as well and have the same duties, so they should have equal rights as well.

"But in a capitalist society like Israel, everyone, including Arabs have the chance of making money for themselves, instead of begging for government charity. They can be as rich as they want, or as poor as they want. It has to do with hard work, not communist-style handouts that kill people's motivation to succeed on their own."

This is only true if they have an equal chance of making money and getting a good job, which is most capitalist countries, and especially in Israel for palestinians, is not the case.
in communism people have to work too, if they don't, they get nothing and can be fired too. But wages and income are less unequal and everyone can attain university or housing.

NewsGuy

02-25-2002, 06:56 PM

" if israeli palestinians are demonstrating against israeli policy than they should have the right to do so, otherwise israel isn't a democracy."

And in fact they have the right to do so. But they don't have the right to support Israel's enemies and to incite violence against Jews and Christians.

"This is only true if they have an equal chance of making money and getting a good job, which is most capitalist countries, and especially in Israel for palestinians, is not the case."

They would have a better chance of working and making money, if Arab workers did not murder their Israeli bosses every so often. It's really a turn-off for the company to have to explain to their Palestinian workers "No Jihad during work hours!"

But, actually, there are many extremely wealthy Arabs in Israel, especially in the construction business. Those who are not so wealthy have the chance to work in some of the other Arab countries, unlike Israelis who are stuck in a small economy being ruined by Palestinians terrorism, Arab embargoes and European economic blackmail. What about Israeli workers' equal rights to make money?

"in communism people have to work too, if they don't, they get nothing and can be fired too. But wages and income are less unequal and everyone can attain university or housing."

No, in practice, communists who didn't work very hard still got their paychecks and food rations. There was never incentive to excell.

At the same time, the members of the Politburo lived like kings in fancy apartments and took long summer vacations by the Black Sea in their luxury homes, while the masses waited online for food and toilet paper.

takeo

02-25-2002, 09:02 PM

"And in fact they have the right to do so. But they don't have the right to support Israel's enemies and to incite violence against Jews and Christians. "

in a real democracy they can say whatever they like and support whoever they like, as long as they don't summon people themselves to attack Israel. Besides when they demontrated the violence was directed against them, and incitement to hate arabs is heard all over israel.

"They would have a better chance of working and making money, if Arab workers did not murder their Israeli bosses every so often. It's really a turn-off for the company to have to explain to their Palestinian workers "No Jihad during work hours!" "

actually Israeli palestinians don't participate in the "Jihad", still they are being discriminated (paid less, worse jobs, ...) even in times of peace. Some are wealthy but in general arab israely are poorer than Jewish israeli, because they don't have an equal chance on the labour-market. and as you said most Arab countries are poorer than israel so why would they work there? If israel's economy is weak they should think of making peace and stopping occupation, the current policy won't make it any better(and by the way also destroys the economy of jordan, Libanon and Syria, nobody will invest in a dangerous region).

"No, in practice, communists who didn't work very hard still got their paychecks and food rations. There was never incentive to excell. "

well, people working in a private company will also not work harder than they have to, because their paycheck will be the same anyway.

"At the same time, the members of the Politburo lived like kings in fancy apartments and took long summer vacations by the Black Sea in their luxury homes, while the masses waited online for food and toilet paper."

Actually the leaders of the politbureau live indeed better than common people, but if you compare to the leaders or ministers of other governments they lived really modest.

NewsGuy

02-26-2002, 05:40 PM

"in a real democracy they can say whatever they like and support whoever they like, as long as they don't summon people themselves to attack Israel."

No, in democracies, support for terrorist organizations and enemy countries is not necessarily legal.

"Some are wealthy but in general arab israely are poorer than Jewish israeli, because they don't have an equal chance on the labour-market."

If Israelis felt safe and also felt that their businesses would succeed more with Israeli Arab employees, then the Arabs would do better. As is they have a much better standard of living than they would in any Arab country and should stop complaining or move elsewhere in the Arab world where they will have all the freedom to succeed that they wish for, regardless of how rich or poor their countries are.

And anyway, there are Arab countries that are much richer than Israel, so those would be perfect destinations for any Palestinian who doesn't feel they are getting a fair deal in Israel.

"well, people working in a private company will also not work harder than they have to, because their paycheck will be the same anyway."

No offense, but if eventually you get out into the working world in a capitalist country, you will realize that there is a lot of incentive to excel at one's job. Getting a raise, for one, or improving one's qualifications for getting a better job elsewhere, etc.

"Actually the leaders of the politbureau live indeed better than common people, but if you compare to the leaders or ministers of other governments they lived really modest."

That all depends on which officials specifically. But it is the corruption and disparity that is very obvious in the case of communism.

NewsGuy

02-26-2002, 08:17 PM

Just btw - here's something from today's Haaretz:

Israeli killed in shooting north of Jerusalem

"A Palestinian killed an Israeli co-worker early Wednesday in a factory in the Atarot industrial area, located north of Jerusalem and on the outskirts of the West Bank town of Ramallah, witnesses said. "

Are you still wondering why some Israelis are not so eager to rush to offer Palestinians jobs?

takeo

02-27-2002, 05:28 AM

israeli palestinians should have an equal chance as civilians of a democracy, if one group is discriminated you can't just reply by "than they have to move somewhere else" if they don't want to be discriminated. A real democracy would make laws to prevent discrimination. And this is not something of the last two years, this is going on for many years.

Hey, i worked already for private companies!
I didn't see much difference with state-run companies, and people can have promotion in both and more wage as well (as in most communist countries too). by the way the israeli economy is quite statist as well.
The corruption today in Russia is MUCH worse than it was 10 years ago, and Cuba is much less corrupted and the elite lives a lot more modest than in other latin countries.

NewsGuy

02-27-2002, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by takeo
israeli palestinians should have an equal chance as civilians of a democracy, if one group is discriminated you can't just reply by "than they have to move somewhere else" if they don't want to be discriminated. A real democracy would make laws to prevent discrimination.

There are plenty of laws against discrimination in Israel that guarantee Israeli-Arabs equal rights.

It's up to the Arabs to get the education and skills to be desirable for employment in Israel, like any other Israeli.

But if Arabs are not getting as much employment because Israelis correctly fear that the Arabs will slaughter their bosses and coworkers at any moment (like happened many times including today), that could be a problem for the Arabs.

I have also not seen the Israeli-Arabs who live off the backs of the Israeli taxpayers, actually go down to Gaza and Ramallah to demonstrate against Palestinian terrorism. Why do these "model citizens" not do that?

takeo

02-27-2002, 06:58 PM

They are no model-citizens, they are just citizens. There are discrimination-laws I think, but apparently not effective to prevent discrimination in daily life. palestinian israeli are not involved in terrorism so this is not an excuse to bar them from good jobs (because their discrimination is peanuts compared to the suffering of the palestinians in the occupied territories, they have no reason to resist with violence, they are tryoing to pursue equal rights by parliament and enforcing laws).

Ezra

03-10-2002, 09:21 PM

Mr. Fair,

Have you ever tried to ask any Palestinian living IN Israel whether he/she prefers to live under the Israeli rules, the PLO rules, or the Jordanian rules?

Try to do so and (I'm assuming..) you will be surprised by the answer!

Also, try to ask ANY Palestinian living in Israel about his/her opinion in the Intefadah!

General X

04-07-2002, 05:43 PM

Israel is supposed to be a Jewish state... it is a democracy, an island of democracy in the Arab sea of theocracies. Look at the Arab countries... how many democracies are there that border Israel? Of the Arab states, I must congratulate only Turkey on being moderate and rational.

muslim4israel2

04-12-2002, 08:16 AM

Turkey's an Arab state now?

Duh!

Why not add Greece, Italy and the rest of Europe?

:rolleyes:

alm0nd

04-12-2002, 11:59 AM

I have two questions:

1) If Arab Israelis have the same chances as Jewish Israelis, why don't we see Arab actors in the Israeli TV? :confused:

2) If Arab Israelis have the same chances as Jewish Israelis, would you rather be born an Arab living in Israel than be born and living in the US? ( I sure
wouldn't like that myself !)

muslim4israel2

04-12-2002, 12:07 PM

Waaaaaaaaaa?

They let you in, did you bribe them or something? :D

Shuki

04-12-2002, 12:08 PM

victot

04-12-2002, 05:31 PM

now now, a few years back an arab israeli won the miss israel contest...
good ol' israeli women, they're so hot...

christian

04-16-2002, 12:50 AM

I want to see a picture of her.
Any link? :D :D

Oh Jerusalem

04-16-2002, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by alm0nd
I have two questions:

1) If Arab Israelis have the same chances as Jewish Israelis, why don't we see Arab actors in the Israeli TV? :confused:

2) If Arab Israelis have the same chances as Jewish Israelis, would you rather be born an Arab living in Israel than be born and living in the US? ( I sure
wouldn't like that myself !)

1) Considerring the low quality level of Israeli TV actors and shows, I wish I could ask the question in the opposite direction. :p

In addition, government run Israel Broadcasting Authority has an Arabic TV division, which gets several hours of contiguous air-time daily, in addition to the 6:30AM morning news slot. Furthermore, there are plenty of Arabs employed by the IBA in production and technical roles for Israeli programming as well.

2) I fail to understand the question.

victot

04-16-2002, 08:58 AM

here is a story plus a couple of pics of the arab israeli who won the miss israel contest:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_294000/294051.stm

quotes from miss Rana Raslan, who won the contest in 1999:

"It doesn't matter whether I am an Arab or a Jew, we must prove to the world that we can live together."

"There is no difference between Arabs and Jews, we are all human beings."

alm0nd

04-18-2002, 03:42 AM

This is a beauty queen ?!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/290000/images/_294051_miss150.jpg

Are they blind !! :D :D

Oh Jerusalem

04-18-2002, 03:45 AM

:p LOL! :p

Makes me shudder to think what the others looked like.

victot

04-18-2002, 04:13 AM

heh, must admit, i don't think she looked all that great from the photo, but i still contend israeli women are super hot, and she probably is in real life too.

gev

04-20-2002, 02:25 PM

An interesting thing happen in a recent talk show in Israeli TV:

A plan was intoduced for discussion: the plan was that upon the establishment of the Phalastanian State, Some Arab-Israelies towns and villages that are near the 67 border, will be annexed to the newly born Phalestinian state. many Arab-Israeli called the show and expressed their objection to the plan...
How do you explain that, fair, muslims4Israel...
Shouldnt this plan be their long lasting dream?

alm0nd

04-21-2002, 02:18 PM

this contradict all the Arab-Jew Israelis equality principle !

This way you are not treating Arab Israelis as Israeli nationals.. you are treating them as a "disposable" "thing" that you want to get rid of!!

I don't know could that be called "equality" ..

gev

04-21-2002, 03:19 PM

I never said it was the attitude of the Israeli goverment or population, I said it was a plan offered for discussion in a TV show. if you ask why it was offered? the main reason is the ongoing over-symphathy shown by some Arab-Israelies to the phalastinian cause: burning Israel's flags in protests, helping suicide bombers and other terrorists (mobilize them, hide them, choose targets).

but as mentioned in my post: a lot of Arab-Israelies wants to stay under Israel. and that shows that the democracy of Israel, although it needs some improvements, works!

Mediocrates

04-23-2002, 08:18 AM

I submit that you don't look at that rationally. Yes Arabs make up about 12% of the population and their national ID card obviously won't say 'Jew'. And there are poor Russians with limited Hebrew skills relegated to working poor wage jobs..

What's your point? Is Israel a country with internal frictions - is the US, is France, is there anywhere in the modern world where there are minorities with both valid and overblown complaints? Of course there are.

I also submit that eventually when there is Palestinian state those 12% Arabs will have some chance to move across the border if they desire, or stay in Israel if they prefer. I suspect most will stay in Israel or perhaps have some complicated dual citizenship. Compared to the zero number of Jews who will be living in a Palestinian state I submit that is an actual choice.

Belgium@EU

05-03-2002, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by NewsGuy

Like any other Israeli citizens, Arabs are given:

- freedom of speech
- freedom to elect their own members of parliament
- government subsidies for education
- welfare payments for poor Arabs
- unemployment benefits
- subsidized health care

Indeed, for the Arabs who have an Israeli passport. But the Palestinians, who are also Arabs, don't have these same rights.

They have the freedom to get their ass moving when they are chased by an AH-64D Apache-Peten helicopter firing Hellfires at them. Or F-16's bombing their HQ's.

Mediocrates

05-03-2002, 10:25 AM

The Afghans and Congolese and Eskimos living in the West Bank don't have Israeli passports either.

NewsGuy

05-03-2002, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Belgium@EU
Indeed, for the Arabs who have an Israeli passport. But the Palestinians, who are also Arabs, don't have these same rights.
Just an example of the "correct" way to do things, in your opinion, I would be curious to know which government benefits exactly does your country, Belgium, offer non-citizens living outside its borders?

Belgium@EU

05-03-2002, 01:02 PM

Belgium@EU

05-03-2002, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by NewsGuy

Just an example of the "correct" way to do things, in your opinion, I would be curious to know which government benefits exactly does your country, Belgium, offer non-citizens living outside its borders?

Well, first of all. All EU-residents get the same treatment as Belgian natives. The people coming from outside the EU get the treatment according to their status. If you're an Israeli, and you stay here for some years, you'll get the same rights (including paying taxes) as us Belgians, only you are not allowed to vote. But you always have the right to become a Belgian. (if you have legal papers ofcourse, registration)

But there's one difference between Belgium and Israel. We don't occupy other countries and we don't claim them to be ours. If the West bank and Gaza are not independent states yet, they must be from Israel, which means the people living in those territories shoud get the same treatment as any other Israeli citizen. These territories ware taken illegaly in 1967, and are now still Israeli soil. The people living there should be protected by the government, and not be haunted.

Mediocrates

05-03-2002, 04:26 PM

That's because you LOST the 30 year's war.

What about Congo and Rwanda, did you occupy them? You left them in the worst shape of any colony in Africa with your benign neglect.

cerulean

05-03-2002, 09:48 PM

One of the forgotten mass murders of the 19th century, resulting in some 4-8 million dead, occurred during the occupation of what was then called the Belgian Congo on the behest of King Leopold of Belgium. Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad was based on actual events.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0618001905/qid=1020494151/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-9458461-5203211

Belgium@EU

05-03-2002, 11:27 PM

Well, I know I couldn't avoid this. Indeed, what Belgium did in Congo was a disgrace (cfr. France in Algeria, UK un RSA). King leopold II was a mass-murderer, and we are aware of that. The Belgian Gov't apologised already for what happened, but we can't change history. But we can give financial back-up to Congo, send UNO-peacekeepers ... We try to do something about it.

Belgium@EU

05-04-2002, 01:48 AM

In Israel everyone is equal. But some are more equal than others. :cool: Never read Orwell???

Mediocrates

05-04-2002, 02:43 PM

You ordered your peacekeepers out the first day of genocide in Rwanda after 10 soldiers were ambushed and killed. In 8 weeks a million Rwandans were slaughtered. Bully for you.

Belgium@EU

05-04-2002, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
You ordered your peacekeepers out the first day of genocide in Rwanda after 10 soldiers were ambushed and killed. In 8 weeks a million Rwandans were slaughtered. Bully for you.

Yeah, but that's something we couldn't prevent from happening. The Dutch had similar problems in Srebrenica. Peacekeepers are policemen, observators, they can't stop a whole army from commiting genocide.

Mediocrates

05-05-2002, 05:44 AM

.....such is the Beligian legacy in Africa.

alm0nd

05-06-2002, 05:45 AM

oh .. I have a question for you Belgium@EU..

Do Belgium still have those "settlements" which was bulit in the Netherland or Luxembourg?

:confused:

alm0nd

05-06-2002, 05:56 AM

That's because you LOST the 30 year's war.

What is this? Is it the Medieval all over again? or is it a soccer match that you just lose?

Ever heard of something called "UN Resolutions"?

Mediocrates

05-06-2002, 06:06 AM

Yeah I heard of one - the one where Israel is allowed to exist. You honor that one then we'll talk. My people'll call your people. Ciao baby@!@

alm0nd

05-07-2002, 05:43 AM

See .. this is the problem..

I do honor all the resolutions ... but you only want to honor the ones you are comfortable with..

Mediocrates

05-07-2002, 05:47 AM

first things first, not last or randomly.

fix the first thing then we can talk about all your other complaints

tell me - is an arab's word worth anything or is it naturally assumed bullshit?

NewsGuy

05-07-2002, 07:15 AM

Originally posted by alm0nd
I do honor all the resolutions ... but you only want to honor the ones you are comfortable with..
I don't know about you personally, but if you mean Arab countries in general, then I would disagree that they keep all UN resolutions. Certainly they do not and have not in the past few decades abided by UN resolutions.

The Arab violations of UN Resolutions began with the establishment of the state of Israel. Whereas the UN declared Israel as a state with agreed borders, the Arabs responded with a united attempt to ethnically cleanse Israel from all Jews.

From there on, the Arabs have started 5 wars with the same goal -- genocide of the Jews.

Even till today, after the UN has declared that Israel left all of Lebanon, the Arabs are still shooting missiles into Israeli population centers.

So, please don't try to tell us about Arab compliance with the UN. On the contrary, the Arabs react to UN resolution with only one response -- utter and complete contempt. That is translated into a systematic genocide and crimes against humanity against the Jews.

alm0nd

05-07-2002, 07:16 AM

Mediocrates

Chose a cleaner vocabulary before you expect me to have a civilized debate with you!!

... So much for setting priorities !

Mediocrates

05-07-2002, 07:38 AM

Arab poetry was described by Sir Richard Burton (the translator not the actor) as 'falling gently as the rain'. I am interested little in flowery prose from the barrel of a gun, but thanks anyway.

alm0nd

05-07-2002, 07:40 AM

NewsGuy

Lets look at the very near history... you gave the Egyptians their land and they gave you peace from their side. you gave the Jordanians their land and they gave you peace from their side. All of this was under the UN resolutions Umbrella. Now ... what make you think that the Palestinians wouldn't do the same?

Mediocrates

05-07-2002, 08:15 AM

Because those combatants were organized armies under the direction of a government that at least pays lip service to the notion of accountability. Do you think that if the whole Golan were returned then rockets would cease falling on Kiriat Shimona? Yeah me neither.

gev

05-07-2002, 12:09 PM

AlmOnd,

Now ... what make you think that the Palestinians wouldn't do the same?

The Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hizbullah and many other Phalestanian Terror groups themselves say that they want the whole of Israel, and this is the purpose of their fight.

if those groups werent there, and the fight would have been only for the West Bank and Gaza, it would have been over a long time ago. Israel was willing to evacuate settelments and establish a phalestanian state (Camp David, remember?)

But Those groups are here to stay and they say they wouldnt honor any agreement and will continue the attacks until the "Zionist Enemy" is destroyed.

Knowing this fact, there are two possibilities to over come this problem:
1. The Phalestanian leadership would FIGHT these groups, arrest them and wont let them operate.
2. Israel would fight them arrest them and wont let them operate.

After giving Arafat a chance to fight those groups, what he did was getting aggreements with them: Once in a while there can be a Terror attack. A lot of Intelligence was gathered regarding Arafat and the Phalestanian Authority involvement in Terror Activities. Those facts Led Israel to understand that possibility 1 can not work. so possibility 2 is the only available possibility at the current time.

What israel is trying to do in the mean time (knowing that on the long term, possibility 1 is the preffered one), is trying to pressure for the replacement of leadership, one that will truly invest the money and effort for helping it's people and not themselves, investing in creating new jobs and education and not in making new car bombs and mortar shells.

Did you know that Arafat's own personal welth is estimated at 20 bilion dollars? thats 20 times than Israel's whole Education budget!!! think about what the phalestanians could have done with all that welth. think about what other phalestanian leaders took from the phalestanian Budget.

JustPat

05-24-2002, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by takeo
besides in a real democracy religious people don't get all kinds of legal advantages as in Israel, demonstraters are not being shot at and torture is illegal. A real democracy would also subscribe the un-resolutions and the Geneva-conventions. You miss the beauty of a democracy. We have the right not ot sign on to UN Resolutions, the Geneva Convention, or any International Treaty we deem as not in agreement with our goals and purpose for existence. But, at least in a democracy I get to have a say. What Arab dictatorship can claim that?

Vic

05-24-2002, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by takeo - Post #3 http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=1917#post1917
If Israel is really a democracy, than all this facilities and equal rights for minorities are just natural, and nobody needs to be "gratefull". unfortunately this facilities exist mostly on paper only and Israeli Palestinians are still being discriminated and in the parliament there is a "cordon sanitaire" against their parties.
Even much worse is that millions of palestinians who live in what is considered Israel (by Israeli themselves only) have no rights at all, for 35 years already.
Would you call France a real democracy?