Takeo's peace plan suggestion II

[NewsGuy]

Administrative Note: This thread is a continuation of Takeo's peace plan suggestion (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?threadid=221) in this section.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
So, this are bad Jews as they failed to keep the jewish community pure and intermarried with non-Jews?

. . .

How come that even i can immigrate to Israel even if i'm not religious?

I'm not saying that they are "bad", I am saying that they are useless to the Jewish community.

As for the second part, what are you talking about? Non-religious Jews make up about 90% of the Israeli population.

[takeo]

exactly, so if Jews are not a people but a religious community(as negev stated, or watcher?), how is this possible?
Useless? I believe non-religious Jews as Einstein, Marx and many others made great contributions to the human race. Non-religious Jews made integration in the society they live in more easy, which according to me is an accomplishment. Jews are no longer living in Ghetto's or Pales.

[NewsGuy]

"exactly, so if Jews are not a people but a religious community(as negev stated, or watcher?), how is this possible?"

By "religious" I don't think that what is meant is necessarily observant. Israel is the Jewish homeland and is a secular state, with a 90% secular society, but the character of the state is still Jewish and this is the entire reason for its existence, IMHO, to provide a homeland for the Jewish people.





"Useless? I believe non-religious Jews as Einstein, Marx and many others made great contributions to the human race. Non-religious Jews made integration in the society they live in more easy, which according to me is an accomplishment. Jews are no longer living in Ghetto's or Pales."

Of course non-observant Jews make huge contributions both to the Jewish community and to the world. I don't think that this is at all under dispute. (Although I don't think I would ever include Karl Marx in ther company of great contributors to the world in a positive sense).

Being successful in society while preserving one's heritage is great.

But I think that you are distorting something here in considering intermarried Jews simply "non religious."

Although I would not want to be in a position of judging how people live their lives, I can say that intermarriage puts those who do it outside the Jewish community.

It doesn't make them "good" or "bad." It just says that they do not care about living within the Jewish community, and I wish them all the luck in the world finding happiness in their new lives, if that's what they want.

I only regret that there is such a high rate of intermarriage becuase it deprives us in the Jewish community of smart and talented Jews who could have strengthened us if they were still part of the community.

[takeo]

So it means Jews are a race, as blood-ties and not religion is important to become Israeli citizen.
I think mixing races has always worked well and is one of the things that made america great. The Jews have contributed their knowledge to the US, as have other groups as well. I don't think people should be looking to marry with someone of the same race or religion as themselves, and a mixed marriage is a sign of an open, integrating and tolerant society. It is a sign of tolerance and a crime for real anti-semites. In fact officially the Jews are only about 5% of americans, yet i think if you count mixed jews as well i would be closer to 25% or even more, which makes the US, not Israel, the first jewish state in the world. (this is in contribution to your statement that Palestine in fact has already Jordan, with wich i don't mean all jews have to be expelled to the US, on the contrary) .
ps: I think marx is the greatest Jew in world history :)

[watcher]

Sorry but by mixing you lose the essence and desire for Israel when mixed with the wrong people. Israel is a people who are to be based on Truth and Love not hatred and lies. Those who deny qualities from the Tora should not be considered a part of Israel.

[takeo]

So non-religious or mixed people should be excluded from Israel?
I think Herzl, the founder of zionism, wouldn't agree with you.

[watcher]

Those who have hate instead of Love should be excluded... Those who seek and want to live in truth and reject lies and deception should be allowed... Those who accept the qualities in the Tora, in respecting Laws and Commandments, although impossible to be perfect at least try as much as possible to be right should be allowed. So as in what the world knows as the Old Testament in the land of Israel in Davids kingdom there were no races recognized... Just the Love in each others hearts that determined who truly is part of Israel... The Love shown in the Tora.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
So it means Jews are a race, as blood-ties and not religion is important to become Israeli citizen.
I think mixing races has always worked well and is one of the things that made america great. The Jews have contributed their knowledge to the US, as have other groups as well. I don't think people should be looking to marry with someone of the same race or religion as themselves, and a mixed marriage is a sign of an open, integrating and tolerant society. It is a sign of tolerance and a crime for real anti-semites. In fact officially the Jews are only about 5% of americans, yet i think if you count mixed jews as well i would be closer to 25% or even more, which makes the US, not Israel, the first jewish state in the world. (this is in contribution to your statement that Palestine in fact has already Jordan, with wich i don't mean all jews have to be expelled to the US, on the contrary) .
ps: I think marx is the greatest Jew in world history :)

I think you're mistaken about every single word in your message.

The bottom line is that to be Jewish, one must be born of a Jewish mother or convert properly. You want to conlcude that Jews are a race, fine. You want to conclude that Catholicism is a race, fine. It's all the same principle. But in all cases, the religion is who decides on its members' status. The fact that you, as a self-described communist, disagree with the concept of religion is besides the point.


Maybe you should also contact the Pope and tell him that if he were truly tolerant, he would allow priests to conduct marriage ceremonies between Catholics and non-Catholics and produce children who don't receive the scaraments so that society can be improved. I'm sure he will feel very enlightened and fortunate to be set straight.

Hey, and while you're at it, you might as well tell him that his white Kippah is really a zionist threat to colonize his head. :D


And as for your your figure of 25% of the US being Jewish, that's really fascinating. Where did you get that particular false statistic?

[takeo]

well, I read it in an american newspaper(i think it was time) that in fact 25% of all Americans have at least one grandparent with a Jewish name.
if its all about religion, than i don't understand zionism. Because first zionists were not religious at all! and if it weren't Palestine they would consider Uganda as their homecountry (what the ugandans thought of this is another matter). in fact i think a state for a religion is stupid, for sure in the 21-th century, and for sure because most Israeli aren't even religious!
So in fact an anti-semite isn't a racist? (as the jewish people are no race according to you)
i don't agree with the pope either and ithink everyone has the right to believe and hold on his own religion(actually if the pope could shoose th French revolution would have never happened), yet i think religion is one of the things that provoked anti-semitism in the past (because Jews wanted to separate themselves AND because other religions called to distrust jews) and religion has always been intolerant for non-believers, certainly semitic religions such as the jewish religion, islam and christianism.

[watcher]

To be founded upon the Tora is a way of life... To follow a certain set of instructions, to understand what's right and what's wrong and accept your path from that point. Without Laws and guidelines there would be nothing but anarchy and chaos somewhat like what you see in "palestine".

For example to accept the correct path is what keeps people from assembling devices of destruction to murder your fellow man, but love your fellow man. To not desire your fellowmans property, not to steal, not to bear false witness, and not to kill are some of the commandments in the Tora... What do these "palestinians" do but claim land not theirs and use that reason to kill the innocent.
It does not say however do not defend hence Israels defense.

[fair]

Unless Israel forget greedness in other side arab lands and reach to justice compromise
there will be no constant peace
I hope solving this conflict to start naturalising and trade cooperation between arab and Israel
Israel will gain much from solving this problem
salam

[Ezra]

Mr. fair,

What if I quoted to you from even the most moderate Egyptian/Arabian discussion forum people saying "Let's talk about peace with them but remember that, as Muslims, we have to keep in mind always that we will get rid from them as soon as we are able to do so"?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
if its all about religion, than i don't understand zionism. Because first zionists were not religious at all!

You bring up an excellent point, takeo. I think that's an excellent topic to discuss and deserves its own thread.

[takeo]

yes i think so too.

[Mark Mighell]

Originally posted by watcher
Sorry but by mixing you lose the essence and desire for Israel when mixed with the wrong people. Israel is a people who are to be based on Truth and Love not hatred and lies. Those who deny qualities from the Tora should not be considered a part of Israel.

Good and Evil is equil in all man. It is only you who can choose the right path.

[Mediocrates]

Takeo

You're the one with identity issues, not us. You are not Jewish, you had Jewish ancestors. Without any religious, cultural or historical connection to Judaism, without any recognizable bond to the people and no desire to create one then you are excluded from the community. That's pretty standard Jewish law and custom. Just more ammo for you to shoot back at us 'evil' Jews.


That the law of ingathering is a convenient target for your racial politics is really just a prop. Because in the end the only people like you obsessed with race are in fact racists.

[Communication]

I'll try this again. Unlike Christianity, Judaism is not a pure faith based system. It is faith based, in that Jews believe that the legal system that they adhere to is divinely sanctioned. It is a way of life that Jewish people should try to adhere to, just as your own political systems attempt to maintain order and promote values that those systems deem important.

If you look at jurisprudence today, you will see striking similarities between modern legal systems and halacha. But halacha imposes duties on our people that are above and beyond those under modern systems. American law is driven by a cost-benefit analysis- even life is quantified, while halacha is driven purely by ethics. That doesn't mean that American law doesn't have ethical components, of course it does. It's an evolving tradition created by human beings and Jews can and have helped shape American jurisprudence and society. You, takeo, make this point well. But economic considerations factor heavily into the American system, and as a consequence, other aspects of life, particularly business, are affected by it. So despite both real and perceived Jewish success in the United States, being Jewish isn't always good for business.

Jews can live in the American system and still be Jews, but it's much harder if you don't belong to a substantial Jewish community. It may be different in France, but in the United States, the emphasis is on individualism- it's the complete opposite in a Jewish society. While we can help shape the societies we live in, and for the record- I love the United States, it's not wholely ours as a people to devleop and mold on our own terms. So when it comes down to it, we are talking about self-determination for a people- a very diverse people (and it's always been that way even when we lived together in the very same land that Israel stands today) but a people who esentially agree that they want to be part of their own experiment. The Jewish system is thousands of years old and not everything imporves over time- especially when it comes to ethics.

There are other social considerations. Luckily, there is a five day week in the United States, so if you want to maintain Shabbat, you can with relative ease. But for myself, since I don't live in a Jewish community now, I usually skip Shabbat because none of my friends celebrate it. :(

Other people can give share their experiences...

Of course it's good that the Jewish people haven't lived in a vacumn for the past 2000+ years. (That has never been the case in any event). Now is the time for some of our body now living in Israel to leverage all that diverse learning and to transform it into something uniquely Jewish. Permanent exile for everyone is no longer an option. Conditions that allowed Jews to be sustained in exile for as long as we have been sustained have changed, and we require a place somewhere in the world to normalize Jewish existence.

[Mediocrates]

This is talking algebra to dogs. Talk about religion and takeo is all opium of the people, talk culture and he'll tell you about citizenship, talk race and he's on that like white on rice and all his Nuremberg racial politics. For self professed 'jews' who don't know or care what that means as long as they can tell what it's supposed to mean to you and how you're supposed to act to meet their criteria I say you can all line up like good little soldiers to kiss my ass.

They want to uninvent Israel, barring that they want to uninvent Jews. Momzer.

[elke]

Communication, that was a beautifully laid-out set of thoughts! Kudos! :)

[Tal]

The Terrorists will never be happy till someone will preform a genocide to get rid of the intire Jewish/Israeli race!!!!!!!!!!!



I say Israel sould just move forces into every palastinian town and set up electrical fences around each of the towns set up an armed tower 2 tanks and 2 road block gates! :cool:

[rambi]

Originally posted by takeo
...yet i think religion is one of the things that provoked anti-semitism in the past (because Jews wanted to separate themselves AND because other religions called to distrust jews) and religion has always been intolerant for non-believers, certainly semitic religions such as the jewish religion, islam and christianism. At the time when Jews were separate religious community, there was anti-Judaism. However when Jews started to participated in the European life, it was undesrtood they should give up their nationhood (as it was in France - they were "nicely" made Frenchmen of Isralite religion) and assimilate. That was the nationalist European phase, not the religious one.

Religion was not a cause, it was always an excuse.

[rambi]

Originally posted by takeo
...if its all about religion, than i don't understand zionism. Because first zionists were not religious at all! and if it weren't Palestine they would consider Uganda as their homecountry (what the ugandans thought of this is another matter). Zionism started somewhat after different national movements in central and eastern Europe. It started from the failure of Jewish emantipation... after all nationalisms took over the Enlightement. In that context Jews understood that being Jewish was not all about religion - lot of them already became highly secularized, but still felt as the part of Judaism. For them nationality (and that goes hard without the land of your own) had primacy over religion.

From my point of view (correct me if I am wrong), the halacha part of being Jewish came to life after the Holocaust when David Ben Gurion, thiking that the Orthodoxy is dieing out, started to make different concessions to them.

As far as Uganda is concerned - it was always meant to be a nachtasylum as Herzl, after visiting Russia, realized that something should have to be done right at that moment in order to stop sufferings. But almost everyone, especially Russian Zionists rejected the idea.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by rambi
At the time when Jews were separate religious community, there was anti-Judaism. However when Jews started to participated in the European life, it was undesrtood they should give up their nationhood (as it was in France - they were "nicely" made Frenchmen of Isralite religion) and assimilate. That was the nationalist European phase, not the religious one.

Religion was not a cause, it was always an excuse.


Yet all the assimilated, all the German Jews who were allowed to choose their own names instead of being assigned one like before Bismarck, all the literati and musicians, poets, scientists, shopkeepers, the poor the old the mothers the sons and the babies all went up in flames.

They simply could not understand that.

Never believe anyone who has anything to tell you about assimilation. All they are looking for is a better target to shoot.

[LionOfLoyalty]

The quote in your sig file, didn't Hillel say that? Or is Misha another name for Hillel?
Originally posted by rambi
If I am not for myself, who is for me? When I am for myself, what am I? If not now, when? (Mishna, Ethic of the Fathers)

[JustPat]

Originally posted by rambi Religion was not a cause, it was always an excuse. For some, religious observance is the one thread they can trace down through history. It is the thing they had in common with those who have gone before, it is what they will pass on to those who come after. Judaism, in practice around the world, is a common bond that links those whose heritage may have become muddied over time by giving them an anchor to which we can all relate. Trying to make religiion just an "excuse" to show yourself to be one on the outside looking in. You misinterpret and and wrongly assess what you cannot understand becasue it is not a part of you.

[rambi]

Originally posted by JustPat
For some, religious observance is the one thread they can trace down through history. It is the thing they had in common with those who have gone before, it is what they will pass on to those who come after. Judaism, in practice around the world, is a common bond that links those whose heritage may have become muddied over time by giving them an anchor to which we can all relate. Trying to make religiion just an "excuse" to show yourself to be one on the outside looking in. You misinterpret and and wrongly assess what you cannot understand becasue it is not a part of you. English is not my first language so I probably din't make myself clear enough. I find religion as important part of my heritage as well. I was actually criticizing that point of view which tend to put religion as cause of majority of troubles and wars. As world was secularizing and nationalizing, and its Jewish part as well (with i.e. Zionism), all those anti-Judaists soon switched from anti-Judaism to anti-Semitism... from religious to racial hatred.

(I hope I am more understandable now, it is not always simple to think and write in English).

[JustPat]

Originally posted by rambi
English is not my first language so I probably din't make myself clear enough. I find religion as important part of my heritage as well. I was actually criticizing that point of view which tend to put religion as cause of majority of troubles and wars. As world was secularizing and nationalizing, and its Jewish part as well (with i.e. Zionism), all those anti-Judaists soon switched from anti-Judaism to anti-Semitism... from religious to racial hatred.

(I hope I am more understandable now, it is not always simple to think and write in English).
Got it :)

[Batman]

Originally posted by takeo
if its all about religion, than i don't understand zionism. Because first zionists were not religious at all! and if it weren't Palestine they would consider Uganda as their homecountry (what the ugandans thought of this is another matter). in fact i think a state for a religion is stupid, for sure in the 21-th century, and for sure because most Israeli aren't even religious!
.

I totally disagree. YOur understanding of zionists is extremely (either) ignorant or self serving. The history of Judaism has always been connected to ZION which is also called THE LAND -meaning ISRAEL. Over 2000 years of exile all Jews prayed facing EAST toward Jerusalem. Originally the gift of THE LAND, ISRAEL was given to the first Jew Abraham by God through a Covenant.

God said to Abraham that the land of Israel (which was called Canaan at the time and had people called Canaanites living there, since Abraham was the 1st Jew) will be given to his child Isaak who begat Jacob/Israel who begat the 12 tribes of Judah which is the nation of Israel.

As a matter of fact Abraham purchased Hebron from King Efron and it is stated that he did so in order to have no one tell him that when he buried his wife Sarah that the land does not belong to him. This is the same Hebron that Jews now live in. It actually belongs to the Jews since the days of Abraham who gave it to Isaak, Jacob/Israel.

The gift of the land and settling in that land was not to be taken as optional, but as part of being Jewish. There are many requirements connected to THE LAND that can only be accomplished in ISRAEL. Such is the resting of the earth and not doing any farming every 7 years- that is written into the Torah/Bible, and is now practiced in Israel. But out of Israel this is NOT required. This is just one example and there are many more which are connected to THE LAND.

The purpose of Jews living in Israel is so as to bring a universal and lasting peace. This is the driving force of living in Israel. It is not possible to explain to you how that works out here because it is very lengthy and not for this forum.

The zionists you mention were children of parents who prayed every day 3 times a day facing east toward Jerusalem. All the prayers including the Grace over meals have many phrases which say:" may we return to JERUSALEM AND the LAND OF ISRAEL soon in our days"

Abraham was alive around 4,000 years ago.

You need to read about Jewish history from Jewish sources and then you will understand what zionism is about.

[rambi]

Originally posted by LionOfLoyalty
The quote in your sig file, didn't Hillel say that? Or is Misha another name for Hillel? My not such a good quoting is to blame; it is Hillel... (Ethics of the Fathers in Mishna)...

[l_prior]

Taeko can solve israel palistinian problems in a month. Interesting.

Perhaps the month after you could deal with iran/iraq?

take a month off maybee, then head over to china/tebett?

Schmock

[Isiah 2:4]

Originally posted by Batman

The purpose of Jews living in Israel is so as to bring a universal and lasting peace. This is the driving force of living in Israel. It is not possible to explain to you how that works out here because it is very lengthy and not for this forum.


:confused: Erm...don't understand this. Purposes????
Why not for this forum? Please explain what you mean... :)

[yoyo]

Originally posted by takeo
if its all about religion, than i don't understand zionism. Because first zionists were not religious at all! and if it weren't Palestine they would consider Uganda as their homecountry (what the ugandans thought of this is another matter).

It is time to put an end to this myth that zionists WANTED to settle in Uganda. This idea was proposed by Joseph Chamberlain, British Colonial Secretary at that time, when Herzl went to ask for British help. Herzl presented it to the zionist movement at the 6th Zionist Congress, as a " temporary refuge for Jews in Russia in immediate danger" but Herzl made it clear that this program would not affect the ultimate aim of Zionism, a Jewish entity in the Land of Israel. At this sixth zionist congress they decided to send an "investigation team" for this "temporary solution" and was rejected in BLOCK at the 7th Zionist Congress.

The AIM was and always was the LAND OF ISRAEL, including Judea, Samaria and Gaza (as the West Bank is an invention from the Hashemite Thiefs of Jordan)

Do you know the significance of what Jews have been saying in every ceremony?

L'shonah habo b'Yerushalaim
Next Year in Jerusalem