Facts about Islam [Archive]

Ezra

02-25-2002, 03:04 PM

Oh, yeh? Would you please start describing these verses? (the rest is comming!)..

Chapter 2: “Al-Baqarah” (The Cow):

Chapter 2:96: “And verily, you will find them (the Jews) the greediest of mankind for life and (even greedier) than those who – ascribe partners to Allâh (and do not believe in Resurrection - Magians, pagans, and idolaters, etc.). Every one of them wishes that he could be given a life of a thousand years. But the grant of such life will not save him even a little from (due) punishment. And Allâh is All-Seer of what they do.”

Chapter 2:105: “Neither those who disbelieve among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) nor Al-Mushrikûn (the disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, idolaters, polytheists, pagans, etc.) like that there should be sent down unto you any good from your Lord. But Allâh chooses for His Mercy whom He wills. And Allâh is the Owner of Great Bounty.”

Chapter 2:120: “Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him) till you follow their religion. Say: "Verily, the Guidance of Allâh (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism) that is the (only) Guidance. And if you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him) were to follow their (Jews and Christians) desires after what you have received of Knowledge (i.e. the Qur'ân), then you would have against Allâh neither any Walî (protector or guardian) nor any helper.”

Chapter 2:142: “The fools (pagans, hypocrites, and Jews) among the people will say, "What has turned them (Muslims) from their Qiblah [prayer direction (towards Jerusalem)] to which they were used to face in prayer." Say, (O Muhammad) "To Allâh belong both, east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a Straight Way.”

Chapter 2:190: “And fight in the Way of Allâh those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allâh likes not the transgressors.” [This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with Jihâd, but it was supplemented by another verse (V.9: 36)].

Chapter 2:191: “And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.”

Chapter 3: “Aali Imran” (The Family of Imran):

Chapter 3:85: “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.”

Chapter 3:116: “Surely, those who reject Faith (disbelieve in Muhammad SAW as being Allâh's Prophet and in all that which he has brought from Allâh), neither their properties, nor their offspring will avail them aught against Allâh. They are the dwellers of the Fire, therein they will abide. (Tafsir AtTabarî, Vol. 4, Page 58).”

Chapter 3:118: “O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitânah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.”

Chapter 4: “An-Nisa” (Women)

Chapter 4:89: “They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allâh (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islâm), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliyâ' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.”

Ezra

02-25-2002, 05:29 PM

And what about these? (still a lot!)

Chapter 5: “Al- Mâ'idah” (The Table Spread)

Chapter 5:14: “And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allâh's Book, disobeyed Allâh's Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allâh's disobedience), and Allâh will inform them of what they used to do.”

Chapter 5:41: “O Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Let not those who hurry to fall into disbelief grieve you, of such who say: "We believe" with their mouths but their hearts have no faith. And of the Jews are men who listen much and eagerly to lies - listen to others who have not come to you. They change the words from their places; they say, "If you are given this, take it, but if you are not given this, then beware!" And whomsoever Allâh wants to put in AlFitnah [error, because of his rejecting the Faith], you can do nothing for him against Allâh. Those are the ones whose hearts Allâh does not want to purify (from disbelief and hypocrisy); for them there is a disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a great torment.”

Chapter 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliyâ' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyâ', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust).”

Chapter 5:60: “Say (O Muhammad SAW to the people of the Scripture): "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allâh: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allâh and His Wrath, those of whom (some) He transformed into monkeys and swines, those who worshipped Tâghût (false deities); such are worse in rank (on the Day of Resurrection in the Hellfire), and far more astray from the Right Path (in the life of this world)."
Chapter 5:62: “And you see many of them (Jews) hurrying for sin and transgression, and eating illegal things [as bribes and Ribâ (usury), etc.]. Evil indeed is that which they have been doing.”

Chapter 5:64: “The Jews say: "Allâh's Hand is tied up (i.e. He does not give and spend of His Bounty)." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for what they uttered. Nay, both His Hands are widely outstretched. He spends (of His Bounty) as He wills. Verily, the Revelation that has come to you from Allâh increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. We have put enmity and hatred amongst them till the Day of Resurrection. Every time they kindled the fire of war, Allâh extinguished it; and they (ever) strive to make mischief on earth. And Allâh does not like the Mufsidûn (mischiefmakers).”

Chapter 5:82: “Verily, you will find the strongest among men in enmity to the believers (Muslims) the Jews and those who are Al-Mushrikûn

fair

03-02-2002, 09:26 AM

Mr.Ezra
I think u r distorted , vengeful ,spiteful and spleenful against great Islam
the verses u mentioned some of them are forged and trumpled up.

other verses
were for specific circumstances in old times
since 1500 years when our god orderd our propht to follow spescial commands during Islamic and Infidel war as a guide.. not for nowadays

NewsGuy

03-02-2002, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by fair
other verses
were for specific circumstances in old times
since 1500 years when our god orderd our propht to follow spescial commands during Islamic and Infidel war as a guide.. not for nowadays

fair,

I am just wondering.

If it is so, why isn't there a public outcry and condemnation from the Muslim community against Islamic extremists and the clerics who incite the extremists in the mosques?

Why is there no Muslim peace movement that goes out to the streets to demonstrate against Islamic extremism?

You know, silence = agreement.

Ezra

03-04-2002, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by fair
Mr.Ezra
I think u r distorted , vengeful ,spiteful and spleenful against great Islam
the verses u mentioned some of them are forged and trumpled up.

other verses
were for specific circumstances in old times
since 1500 years when our god orderd our propht to follow spescial commands during Islamic and Infidel war as a guide.. not for nowadays

Woooooow really ???!!!!!!!! WHOM ARE U KIDDING? I spent over 20 years studying your religion, so don't tell me this rubbish and try to insult our minds. Unfortunately you are talking with a person who spent nearly half of his life studing this religion.

Can you dare Mr. Fair and say the word of "not for nowadays" infront of your Muslims freinds??!!! I DARE YOU..

SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT "JIHAD" WAS FOR SPECIAL PERIOD OF TIME (TO SPREAD ISLAM.. oh Thanks!) AND IT'S NOT VALID NOW?

Regarding the word "forged", THEN I CLAIM THAT YOU ARE VERY LIAR IN THIS POINT. Go to ANY web site containg authentication translation of the meaning of the Koran and check it out, or do you want me to do that?

Don't be ashame of your "religion" Mr. Fair. If you are saying it's "forged", then if I prove you to you that this is the AUTHENTICATED translation of Koran by your Azhar, would you agree that this religion is just a collection of hate ideas?

ibrodsky

03-06-2002, 09:52 AM

Ezra,

There are some quotes from the Talmud, taken out of context and probably distorted, that are circulating around the Internet to "prove" that Jews are immoral.

I think you should take the comments of "fair" at face value. Otherwise, how can you explain that a large Muslim country, Turkey, is one of Israel's few allies?

Instead, I think we should see if "fair" will take an unambiguous moral stand against militant Islam in general and Palestinian terrorism in particular. If what he says is true, Moslems are permitted to defend themselves but not commit acts of terrorism.

The problem I have with some Moslems is that they say their is no room in Islam for terrorists, but then they excuse Palestinian terrorists as a natural reaction to "illegal occupation."

ibrodsky

03-06-2002, 09:56 AM

fair,

Please tell us your opinions of militant islam (groups such as Al Qaida) and Palestinian terrorism against Israeli civilians. Does Islam permit such behavior?

What is your reaction to Iranians chanting "Death to America!" and Palestinians blowing themselves up among unarmed people -- often children?

I look forward to your answers.

Ezra

03-06-2002, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Ezra,

There are some quotes from the Talmud, taken out of context and probably distorted, that are circulating around the Internet to "prove" that Jews are immoral.

I think you should take the comments of "fair" at face value. Otherwise, how can you explain that a large Muslim country, Turkey, is one of Israel's few allies?

Instead, I think we should see if "fair" will take an unambiguous moral stand against militant Islam in general and Palestinian terrorism in particular. If what he says is true, Moslems are permitted to defend themselves but not commit acts of terrorism.

The problem I have with some Moslems is that they say their is no room in Islam for terrorists, but then they excuse Palestinian terrorists as a natural reaction to "illegal occupation."

As I said before I spent over 20 years studying and analyzing the Islamic culture. That wasn't only from books, but from life among Egyptians. I can read Arabic Language as fluent as I can read and write English. When I studied Koran and "Tafaseer", I read the original Arabic versions not any translations. I don't rely on the Internet for my information. I rely on my 150 Arabic/Islamic books that I collected during my stay in Egypt. So don't worry, when I say something about Islam, I'm nearly 99.99% sure that it's not only correct but also very true.

Turkey is NOT an Islamic country. Have a small look on yesterday's newspapers and you will say that they even banned "Hegab" (scarves/veils on head) from schools.

Mr. fair will just say anything to justify his position here, and in other forums he says COMPLETELY THE OPPOSITE. If he denied that, I'll be very happy to quote and translate what he said or agreed on in other forums. That will give a very small example that you CAN NEVER trust Muslims.

Islam is built upon two basic facts:
1) It's the only correct religion (Koran says the religion to God is only the Islam).
2) Every Muslim should join the Jihad against any non-Muslim till they become Muslims.

I dare any non-Muslim to deny that Jihad against any other non-Muslim (regardless of the fact if they attacked you or not) is one of the basic idea in Koran.

ibrodsky

03-06-2002, 05:01 PM

Ezra,

I respect your knowledge and experience, but I too am experienced and knowledgeable.

I know people who have spent their lives studying various issues and they still disagree, so the fact you have read 150 books and spent 20 years doesn't guarantee you are right. Some people read and study just to confirm their original positions. (Then again, I'm not saying I have concluded you are wrong, either.)

The people of Turkey are overwhelmingly Moslems. However, it is probably the only predominantly Moslem country that believes in separation of church and state. Clearly, they are very worried about fundamentalists destroying their generally democratic system, though if some of the restrictions against Islamic dress are laws then they may be going too far. (Islamic states have dress codes; I expect better of non-Islamic states.)

I think you are ignoring my point. Not all Jews are Orthodox, and not all Moslems are Orthodox. Turkey is an example of a society that accepts what they see as the good in Islam and rejects the bad and outdated. (Even if I agree that Islam is inherently intolerant, it doesn't have to be interpreted that way.)

Since you accuse "fair" of contradicting himself, please provide me some evidence.

ibrodsky

03-06-2002, 05:04 PM

P.S.: Surely you know that most religious Jews and most religious Christians believe their religion is the only "correct one." This is practically the definition of religion. It can be supported by facts and reason, but ultimately it is based on faith.

Ezra

03-06-2002, 07:42 PM

ibrodsky,

I meant I guarantee you that I'm very accurate in presenting a piece of data and not in my opinion. In other word, I guarantee you that whatever I mention in verses or historical Islamic events will be very true and accurate (since it's well-defined statements), but no question that the "opinion" is something personal that we can agree with or won't agree.

Now regarding your point; It's true that it's not necessary that all people should be "orthodox". I certainly agree with that. But the question is:

To what extent violence against others is clear in your ideology so that we can judge whether it's only extremists or ordinary people who will employ it?

In other words, take for example the Jewish. Violence is not a very clear feature in God's commands from the Jewish point of view. That's why only extremists might interpret some verses to maybe attack Muslims according to it.

On the other hand, in Koran, violence is so clear and very well determined that it does NOT need an extremists to interpret its verses on its violent side.

That's why even normal people (not extremists) were so happy during the Sep 11 events.

Can I ask you something?

How many Jewish thinks Muslims should be totally killed?
10% ?!

How many of these 10% are extremists?
99%.

Ok, let's go to the other side…

How many Muslims thinks Jewish are pigs and should be killed?
At least 95%.

How many of these 95% are extremists?!
I claim that it's no more than 10%.

It's the believes of the ORDINARY Muslims that no peace with Jewish what so ever. It's does NOT need an extremist to interpret the hate verses in the Koran as a hate verse.

ibrodsky

03-07-2002, 09:44 AM

Ezra,

So do you think 95% of Turks are not Moslems as they claim, or that they want to kill all Jews?

...and the reason why so many Moslems were happy about 9/11 was that hatred towards the West is what they are taught in their schools, by their governments, by their media, and (yes) in their mosques.

fair

03-07-2002, 06:15 PM

Ezra
The Gehad of islam is not gehad of extremists
Gehad of Islam is for who fighting us or dismissed us from our homes and not against or specific for christians or jews
You seems has no idea about Islam and your books are Israeli issue
We suffer in islamic countries from those extremists who you are taking them ideal moslems
we know that jewish religion orderd to kill anybody unjew

If our religion Islam against christians or jews . how we lived with them in egypt for thousand and five hundreds years

I think u r orthdox christian or extremist jew
We regard palestinians that try to dismiss the occupation by force
espescialy when Israel refuse to withdrew by negotiation and talks

what about palestinians u dismissed them from their country homes at 48 .. do u expect them will smile and thank you
Instead of you asking for new forign russian and african immigrants keep the original owners to return back to be fair

victot

03-07-2002, 07:06 PM

we know that jewish religion orderd to kill anybody unjew

where do you get that from?

Ezra

03-07-2002, 09:34 PM

Mr. Fair,

You said: Gehad of Islam is for who fighting us or dismissed us from our homes and not against or specific for Christians or Jews.

Ok… Let me take you step by step..

1) Your Koran says that God ordered you to issue the Jihad against ANY (I REPEAT: ANY) "Moshrekeen" (those who don't believe in Mohammed or Koran).. True or False?
2) Neither Jewish nor Christians believe in Mohammed, thus they are from "El-Moshrekeen"… True or False?
3) Thus, you are ordered to issue Jihad against them AT ANY TIME/ circumstances.. True or False?

Note that I choose the hard way to answer your question since I could have brought to you at least 10 verses that have UNCONDITIONAL order in your Koran to fight Jewish and Christians till they believe in Mohammed.

Then you said: If our religion Islam against christians or jews . how we lived with them in egypt for thousand and five hundreds years

Hmmmm.. How many Jews are there in Egypt? Are Christians not persecuted in Egypt? Whom are you kidding?

fair

03-08-2002, 04:36 AM

Miracles of the Holy Qur'an
.......................

Baher = Sea ... mentioned in quran 32 times
Barr = Landmass ... mentioned in quran 13 times

The word (Sea or Water) mentioned 32 times, and the word (Landmass) mentioned 13 times in the Holy Qur'an, if we add them together we will get 45.
Now let us do some calculations...
By finding the percentage of the number of the word (Sea) to the total number of the words (Sea and Landmass) we will have:
(32/45)x100% = 71.11111111111%
By finding the percentage of the number of the word (Landmass) to the total number of the words (Sea and Landmass) we will have:
(13/45)x100% = 28.88888888889%
We will find what Allah (swt) said in His Holy Book 14 centaury ago that the ratio of water on earth is 71.11111111111%, and the ratio of landmass is 28.88888888889%,
add them together and you will get 100%, and these are the real ratios of the Water and landmass on earth.
So what do you think? Could it be a Chance?!
Who do you think taught prophet Muhammad all of these?
I am just telling you that " Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire " so bow thankful to your Lord for being a Muslim, what you have read is a small part of the Numeric Miracles of the Holy Qur'an, there are big volumes about the miracles of the Qur'an....

Ezra

03-08-2002, 08:05 AM

Hahahaha.. Again this funny posts Mr. Fair..

I LOVE IT WHEN YOU POST IT EACH TIME YOU STUCK WHILE TALKING ABOUT "JIHAD" AND YOUR BLOODY, MEAN, FULL-OF-HATE BOOK…

Why didn't you spend sometime answering my questions instead of this funny numbers?

fair

03-08-2002, 08:31 AM

Ezra

May u are interesting to change ur Idea about Islam
Read this link

http://www.islam-guide.com/

L@mplighterM

03-08-2002, 09:18 AM

Interesting calculations takeo I do however feel that someone that draws that conclusion is not all there in the head.
It does give me a bit of insight into the workings of a fundamentalist’s brain or lack of it.

Ezra

03-08-2002, 11:33 AM

Mr. Fair,

What do you think I am? An idiot? Or someone easy to fool? Do you really think I need these tricky useless site to understand Islam?

No Sir.. I already studies Islam for half of my life from the core of Islam, i.e. Egypt.

Now I have two questions for you:

1) Try to search for "Jihad" in your web site. I wonder why you get only one irrelevant link to the word although this word is considered one of the core issues in Islam…. Strange ha ?!
2) Why did you send me this site, and didn’t send me your ABSOLUTELY MOST FAMOUS Islamic site, i.e. www.isalmway.com? Hmmmmmm… Do you want to know the reason? Shall I quote some of its contents here?

And finally, why didn't you answer my question? Don't you have a brain to think? Don't you know the answers? Are you ashamed of it and try to change the topic?

cerulean

03-08-2002, 12:13 PM

Ezra, do you mean

http://www.islamway.com

In any event, this site looks interesting. The English version is at
http://english.islamway.com/

fair

03-08-2002, 12:39 PM

Ezra
What is your opinion about these Qur'an verseses

1- Islam forbids the attack on innocent civilians
...................................

do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors

(Al-Baqarah: 190)

if anyone slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people

(Al-Maidah: 32)

Help ye one another in righteousness and piety, but help ye not one another in sin and rancour: fear Allah: for Allah is strict in punishment

(Al-Maidah: 2)

2- Islam is the religion of Justice

O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do

(An-Nisa’: 135)

O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to Piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do

(Al-Maidah: 8)

But if any one earns a fault or a sin and throws it on to one that is innocent, he carries (on himself) (both) a falsehood and a flagrant sin

(An-Nisa’: 112)

Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion: He instructs you, that ye may receive admonition

(An-Nahl: 90)

And if ye do catch them out, catch them out no worse than they catch you out: but if ye show patience, that is indeed the best (course) for those who are patient

(An-Nahl: 126)

But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is the One that Heareth and Knoweth (all things)

(Al-Anfal: 61)

3- Islam is a religion that guarantees the freedom of faith for all

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things

(Al-Baqarah: 256)

Say, "The Truth is from your Lord": Let him who will, believe, and let him who will, reject (it)

(Al-Kahfi: 29)

To you be your Way, and to me mine

(A-Kafirun
................

Is that enough or u need more

I worry that you may change and become moslem after reading the previous verses

for Gehad I will post later
after u digest these lest u get mind distortion

about Moshrikeen u mentioned it doisn't include Christians and jews It means the infidels
Islam respect the heaven ( sky or god ) religions like christianity and jewish
regards

Ezra

03-08-2002, 02:21 PM

Nice verses. I know that this all what you have! I'll be so happy to answer them. Meanwhile why don't you start describing the verses I mentioned? Because otherwise we will all know that your book is full of contradiction and is written based on the mood of his writer!

Also meanwhile, please answer this question:

The defination of "Moshrekeen" : whom who doesn't believe in God OR his prophets OR his books.. RIGHT?

NEITHER THE JEWS NOR THE CHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN MUHAMMAD OR QORAN. RIGHT?

I want straight NON-MANIPLULATIVE ANSWER please.

Ezra

03-08-2002, 02:23 PM

Believe me Mr. Fair, No one converted to Islam EVER READ THE TRUE VERSION OF QORAN..

Believe me (based on a wide experience in Egypt), the easiest way to make someone leave Islam is to let him read the whole Koran wisely and read Muhamad sxual/military life.

fair

03-08-2002, 03:16 PM

I told you that Moshrikeen mean non religious people .. Infidels
Christins and Jews are book people and religious .. they are not infidels or Moshrikeen
Islam confess with Jews and Christians but deny other religions
like hindos and booza
Islam ordered us that the religion and faith is not compulsion

L@mplighterM

03-08-2002, 04:36 PM

1- Islam forbids the attack on innocent civilians

Before reply to all your verses let’s deal with # 1

How does Mohamed define innocent?

I’ll tell you this he sure the hell doesn’t define it the same way it’s defined in the west.

And by the way where have all your women gone takeo?

Ezra

03-08-2002, 07:51 PM

With all respect Mr. Fair, you are either a BIG LIAR or a BIG IGNORANT..

Go and find the description of Moshrekeen first then come back and argue.

I'll write it in arabic for you (hope my arabic is still good):
Al-koffar wa el-moshrekeen hom kol man lam yo'men be Allah aw Mala'ekatoh aw rosoloh aw kotoboh aw el-youm el-aakher.

(translation: infidels are everyone who denies God, His angels, his prophets, his books, or the last judgment day).

THAT'S WHAT YOUR KORAN SAYS MR. FAIR…. RIGHT OR WRONG?

NEITHER JEWS NOR CHRISTIAN BELIEVE IN MUHAMMAD OR KORAN.

Another thing, are you saying that Jews and Christians are not infidels? OK, IN ONE STRAIGHT YES OR NO : From the Islam point of view, can a Jews or Christian enter Heaven?

Mr. Fair, please respect our mind and answer straight answers.

fair

03-09-2002, 07:07 PM

Ezra

sorry
Iam not going to be involved in unbehaved discussion with you

L@mplighterM

03-09-2002, 08:10 PM

Thank you Mr. fair by not answering you answered.

Ezra

03-10-2002, 06:02 AM

Thank you Mr. fair. You have just proved what we were all waiting for to know.

ibrodsky

03-10-2002, 03:59 PM

I think it is fair to say one thing: whether or not "true Islam" permits terrorism, we know that in practice Islamic states and Islamic groups are the #1 source of terrorism in the world.

This means Islam is most susceptible to be interpreted as condoning terrorism.

There will never be peace in the Middle East until the terrorist attacks stop. The only way that will happen is if the terrorist societies are hit so hard that the ordinary people begin to rise up against the terrorists in their midst.

And that won't happen until Israel hits back much, much harder in response to terrorist attacks.

Flame

03-10-2002, 05:25 PM

Sounds like a fair and legitimate question ... taking the 5th.... an unbehaved topic? Islam was invented for one reason ... to unite arabs/muslims in mutual hate with a vision to conquer. Period.

victot

03-10-2002, 05:30 PM

guys...
it isnt right to villafy a religion like this...
it's just as easy for people to villafy judaism... check out http://www3.stormfront.org/jewish/talmud.html
this kinda talk ain't right

L@mplighterM

03-10-2002, 07:13 PM

Gee I'm sorry viscot.

I?m not looking up dick.

Don?t give me any crab about vilifying a religion. Bring back the Jews that have died in the name of Islam. Bring back the Gentiles, Hindus, Buddhists, and etc. that died 9/11.

Islamic Fundamentalists are evil people with several goals in mind.

1. The destruction of Israel.
2. The destruction of the US.
3. World conquest.

Lets deal with recent times not 50 years ago, 500 years ago, 1,000 years ago and so on. Name one other religion that harbors such evil.

Currently there are 14 males for every 10 females on the average in Arab countries. Why do you think that is? You belong to a religion that creates fanatics, madmen and hell spawns.

United Arab Emirates is one example where the ratio is 15/10 favoring males.

Sex ratio: at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female

under 15 years: 1.04 male(s)/female

15-64 years: 1.73 male(s)/female

65 years and over: 2.36 male(s)/female

total population: 1.5 male(s)/female (2001 est.)

Ezra

03-10-2002, 10:07 PM

I wish any of you were with me in Egypt at Sep 11.

You'd have seen ORDINARY people cheering and celebrating NOT BECAUSE OF THE FOREIGN POLICIES OF THE US, but because they considered that a victory for Islam over the Christian enemies.

I repeat:
1) ORDINARY people.
2) NO POLITICAL HATE… ONLY RELIGIOUS HATE.

McSceptic

03-11-2002, 04:54 AM

If Islam is so uniquely evil, why are they so bad at killing people?

Most Jews killed? Europeans!
Most Christians killed? Europeans!
Most native Americans/blacks/gypsies etc, etc.

Or perhaps they're so twisted by their religion, they can't get their act together?

Islam hasn't been a successfully expansionist religion since they got their teeth kicked in at Lepanto. And even then, that was the Turks, not the Arabs.

Fanatics actually come in all flavours, including Christian (Christian Identiy, anyone). The most artistic suicide bombers are Tamils who I believe are Hindu.

Should we arrest all the Hare Krishnas?

Flame

03-11-2002, 08:29 AM

For one thing McSceptic... the koran is jam packed full of instructions to kill non-muslims in the name of allah. For another thing, muslims are obsessed with cold blooded murder---- globally! Don't you read the news? Those under the islamic umbrella are indeed causing violence, chaos, and murder in many countries. Way too many. Even one person killed just because the koran says so, is too many.... however there are hundreds of thousands of islamic murderers... globablly. Sorry, but no other political group poses and hides behind religion as a means to kill those of other belief systems.

No one has a problem calling a spade a spade when it comes to nazis and communists... why all the sensitivity to islam when in fact these societies are indeed extremely violent and brutal? What other religious group do you knw of that encourages cold blooded murder? There are none. This is uniqure to islam. There is actual evidence that this is happening... not made up paranoia, not some fuzzy fear based on rumor and speculation.

L@mplighterM

03-11-2002, 09:06 AM

Currently there are 14 males for every 10 females on the average in Arab countries. Why do you think that is? You belong to a religion that creates fanatics, madmen and hell spawns.

United Arab Emirates is one example where the ratio is 15/10 favoring males. *

*SOURCE www.cia.gov

McSceptic I?m not going to calculate numbers for you. Needless to say this translates into 10?s of millions of women missing.

It seems to me that they are quite effective at killing. I don?t know your sexual preference nor do I care what it is. It seems to me that any society that rids itself of females to this extent has physiological problems. Further, anyone that states that Islam is a peaceful religion is in denial.

In the west however women are more revered and count for something.

I read this on Danish cnn.com the other day:

DANSKE PIGER 25 ØRE
De ældste tilhører begge den hårde kerne af indvandrer-unge, der ynder at sige de værste ting om purunge danske piger, men ikke desto mindre er der stadig nye piger, som føler sig tiltrukket af kliken.

H.S., som nu sidder fængslet, blev i efteråret landskendt for sine grove udtalelser først i Ekstra Bladet og siden i TV2, hvor han blandt andet sagde, at danske piger højst var 25 øre værd.

Roughly translated it reads Danish girls are worth two bits at the most. I believe that the Palestinians believe Jewish girls are worth even less.

A few months after this Muslim young male made this statement he raped a 13 year old girl, along with two of his friends.

If this incident would have taken place within the walls of a Muslim society her brothers of father would be expected to kill the girl.

So I conclude that Islam is not bad at killing people.

Ezra

03-11-2002, 10:09 AM

McSceptic,

Differentiate between political/war-based killing and religious-based killing.

McSceptic

03-11-2002, 12:16 PM

A lot of European persecutions had a religious basis. They didn't come out of thin air.

I'm not at all happy about demonising a whole religion, just because some of its members are fanatics.

Personally I know quite a few Muslims socially. I box with them, and they're stand-up guys.

I'd agree that I find a whole slew of things that get associated with Islam repulsive, female cicrumcision, honour killings and all. But are you going to kill-off nearly a quarter of humanity because you don't agree with their world-view? Or are you going to try and engage with them and persuade them.

L@mplighterM

03-11-2002, 12:35 PM

Had is the key word. This is 2002 and I would hope that Christianity has left much of its radical insane beliefs behind.

The argument can be made that some Muslims are all right guys. The point is would you put them in charge of Nuclear Reactors?

I sure the **** wouldn?t!

Should they be put in other positions of trust? Like airport security? Biochemical weapons?

You wouldn?t catch me on a plane if that happened.

Leaders of Muslim nations have called for the destruction of Israel in the last few decades and have aided and abetted in that cause.

Would I want my daughter to marry a Muslim under any circumstances? No! I?d disown her!

Give me the name of any other religion that currently advocates Jihad against women and children?

McSceptic

03-12-2002, 12:50 AM

Eh?! What is this Jihad against women and children? Do you mean suicide bombers?

That isn't the result of Islam, that's a national struggle, ugly as it is. The Palestinans were fighting the Israelis long before militant Islam made a resurgence.

And as a point of detail, Israel encourgage the rise of Hamas (the main suicide bombing organisation) as an Islamist counter-weight to the secular PLO. It was only after Hamas added a military wing that they realised their mistake.

But now even the PFLP has suicide bombers, and they're Marxists!

The Palestinians aren't the first to attack civilian populations. We've all been there.

McSceptic

03-12-2002, 05:00 AM

I've read estimates that there are some 18,000 muslims in the US army, 8,000 of them in the Navy. Navy? Those are mobile nuclear reactors right there.

ibrodsky

03-12-2002, 05:13 AM

The problem with Islam is that it hasn't changed over the centuries, while Christianity and Judaism have.

I don't believe that Islam has to be interpreted as supporting conquest, terrorism, etc. But clearly many interpret it that way. And Islamic thought leaders do little to stop it.

Keep in mind that Turkey is an Islamic country and Israel's ally.

The fact that Moslems (even moderates) demand Islamic states shows that Islam opposes separation of church and state. This leads to institutionalized human rights abuses.

I have concluded that Islam is in desperate need of modernization. Moslems are not necessarily evil, but Islam (overall) does not take sufficiently clear and strong positions against terrorism.

The West has to stop worrying about political correctness and point out Islam's serious flaws. The peaceful and moral Moslems will not be offended -- they will welcome the help. But ultimately, there needs to be an Islamic thinker or group of thinkers who step forward and explain how and why Islam needs to be modernized.

Ezra

03-12-2002, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
A lot of European persecutions had a religious basis. They didn't come out of thin air.

The problem with Islam is that it hasn't changed over the centuries, while Christianity and Judaism have.

The fact that Moslems (even moderates) demand Islamic states shows that Islam opposes separation of church and state. This leads to institutionalized human rights abuses.

ibrodsky,

Would you please mention some historical/biblical evidence of your first phrase?

Can you give us example on how Christianity or Judaism has changed while Islam hasn't?

Can you please give a specific evidence (numbers/categories…etc) on why your third phrase should be reliable and trustworthy?

L@mplighterM

03-12-2002, 12:47 PM

What I meant by Jihad is the bombing of the world towers and other terrorist acts. That’s the way I see it.

I sure hope that the Muslims in the US armed forces don’t have access to the nuclear arsenal.

As far as intentionally targeting civilians I don’t think we’ve been there in the last 50 years. There has been individual acts.

fair

03-12-2002, 02:57 PM

We know that Judaism is the only religion encouraging to kill people of other religions
and consider them pigs
as mentioned in talmud and zionist protocol
Your hakham Obadia also mentioned and repeated that

NewsGuy

03-12-2002, 03:35 PM

Fair,

1. Actually, what we know is that Islam is the only religion that refers to non-believers as monkeys and pigs. Not Judaism and not Christianity.

2. The Koran explicitly calls for the mass murder of all non-Muslims. That's a fact.

3. I also see that you refer to the Jewish Talmud. Have you ever read it to know what it actually says? I think not. If you have as you claim, please show me where it says what you say it does.

4. Most importantly, I see that you refer to the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as an authoritative source. Do you know what you're talking about or who wrote that miserable piece of anti-Semitic garbage?

5. Ovadia Yosef is not an authority. He is known as a senile old man with emotional illness and has no bearing on what Jews believe. But for Arabs, they relate to him because as a deranged, mentally unstable individual, he closely resembles many popular Islamic clerics. But make no mistake, he is nothing to Jews, and he was immediately investigated by the Israeli justice department for the crime of incitement for what he said, unlike Islamic clerics who are respected for urging the mass murder of innocent non-Muslim women and children. That's one main difference between Muslim and non-Muslim societies: Muslim society respects clerics who call for murder, while non-Muslim societies consider it a crime.

* * *

You know, I am starting to think that your only sources are Arab propaganda and perhaps some Nazi literature to base your opinion on. Why not try to get more educated by reading other sources?

Since you live outside of your original Arab country, you have the freedom to read actual facts from reliable sources, unlike the rest of your countrymen. You should really take advantage of that Western non-Muslim freedom and find out what else the free world has to offer.

Ezra

03-12-2002, 03:40 PM

Well, NewsGuy you haven't left me anything to say after your well-said words (except for 120 verse from Koraan that insult non-Muslims and calls for either forcing them to Islam or killing them).

Fair.. In a STRAIGHT yes or no, AREN'T MUSLIMS CALL JEWISH PIGS?

Ezra

03-12-2002, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by fair
We know that Judaism is the only religion encouraging to kill people of other religions
and consider them pigs

Fair,

Would you please prove for us that Muslims are not liars and point to us where is it written in the Taorah what have you have just said?

L@mplighterM

03-12-2002, 04:52 PM

Whatever it says in any book New Testament, Torah, Old Testament, or any other book is moot.

The fact is that Islamic Fundamendalists are inspired by the Koran to commit hateful acts against Jews and others.

Flame

03-12-2002, 07:54 PM

Apparenlty Fair hasn't bothered to read a copy of the Talmud. All the experts like him find "the talmud" on nazi sites that have made up selections... all suited to give these hateful creatures a big fat hard-on. Some people get their jollies with porn... others use hating Jews for the same reason.

NewsGuy

03-12-2002, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by Ezra
Well, NewsGuy you haven't left me anything to say after your well-said words (except for 120 verse from Koraan that insult non-Muslims and calls for either forcing them to Islam or killing them).
...

Thanks, Ezra.

There's actually one thing that I forgot to convey.

Maybe it goes without saying, but there are, of course, also many Muslims who oppose violence, regardless of what the Koran says. They interpret the Koran in a peaceful way and live a peaceful lifestyle. I have personally met many such people, for whom I have the utmost respect and would be glad to live side-by-side as neighbors.

I would never pre-judge a Muslim based on the Koran's violent verses. But once a Muslim says publicly that he or she believes in a Jihad, then I would most definitely take them very seriously and treat them accordingly.

So I am not making a blanket statement about Muslims, I am just pointing to the facts of the Koran as I understand them (and I am certainly no Koran scholar to say the least). So, IMO, Muslims need to be treated according to their individual actions, not their religion, but it is also fair to keep in mind the context of the Koran that does dictate the actions of many Muslims indeed.

Ezra

03-12-2002, 09:21 PM

NewsGuy,

Let me correct a very important conceptual mistake that most non-Muslims fall in.

You said:
[Maybe it goes without saying, but there are, of course, also many Muslims who oppose violence, regardless of what the Koran says. They interpret the Koran in a peaceful way and live a peaceful lifestyle. I have personally met many such people]

Well, I have a small comment on this phrase based on both my studies in the Islamic Feqh and my social living with Egyptian Muslims.

Why do you think the Egyptian government had no other choice but using armed force against Islamic fundamentalists? And why had it always arrested Islamic students before every student unions election? Wouldn't it have been easier for it to get some of these fundamentalists and discuss their ideologies on air on public television and prove that these people have wrong interpretations? Couldn't Al-Azhar just make extensive media materials to face such ideology?

WHY COULDN'T THE HIGHEST ISLAMIC AUTHORITY IN THE ISALMIC WORLD (EL-AZHAR) FACE THE ROCKET-SPEED SPREADING IDEOLOGY OF ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS?

Because simply they will fail!!!!! I have attended tremendous number of lectures about Jihad, and non of the so called moderate Muslims were ever able to beat the Koran-based logic of an Islamic fundamentalists. They just can't do it!

Muslims who oppose violence DON'T oppose violence because they interpret Koran in a peaceful way. They oppose violence because THEY IGNORE THE VIOLENCE VERSES IN KORAN or they use some logic that is completely and restrictedly forbidden in Islam (like for example what Mr. Fair tried to trick us with before when he said the Jihad was for a certain period of time and not anymore).

fair

03-13-2002, 07:56 AM

The problem that u made the Judaism closed private and secret religion
It deprivate other people to join it
But Islam is broadmind , universal and opened religion
Every day people rush towards Islam to be moslems
we consider jews uncomplete moslems ( half moslems )
because our Islam has completed all religions
and mohamed is the last prophet
for that we prefer jews and christians than infidels
and allowed for moslem to marry from them
regard,s

Ezra

03-13-2002, 08:08 AM

Fair,
I love it when you stop posting each time you stuck in some questions then come back after a while after we have forgot these questions! So smart!

Ok, since you opened the topic once again, let me ask you something:

IN ONE STRAIGHT YES OR NO : From the Islam point of view, can a Jews or Christian enter Heaven?

Ezra

03-13-2002, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by fair
But Islam is broadmind , universal and opened religion

Mr. Fair,

Would you please tell us "hokm el-deen" (the judgment of Islam) regarding a Muslim who decided (using his open mind that you just talked about) to convert to Christianity?

fair

03-13-2002, 12:43 PM

Ok ezra
I know that u are fanatic jew live in blissed America
but just i asked some questions that u didn't reply
1 - why u closed your religion and changed it to private religion previnted anybody to join it , opposite to the wish of the god

2 - why u repeat every time that u are sematic , especily that this word provoke other people , they suspect that u mean that u are super and proud
arab are sematic and the best people too as mentioned in quran
but we didn't repeat that , like you are doing

judgement of Islam is ..
man yomen falinafsoh wa man yakfor falinafsoh
mean
who get in faith it's up to him .. who will be infidel it's up to him

NewsGuy

03-13-2002, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by fair
The problem that u made the Judaism closed private and secret religion
It deprivate other people to join it

Fair,

What are you talking about "closed, private and secret" religion???

With all due respect, is this fantasy from the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", or perhaps from your usual Friday afternoon anti-Semitic incitement session at the mosque?

I've told you before, since you have the Western, non-Muslim freedom to get objective information, you should take advantage of it and find out which myths you have been fooled with since childhood.

fair

03-13-2002, 02:18 PM

Mr .NewsGuy
now u deny and condemn ur protocols
Obadia yousof senile old man
ok
Did you allow for new believers to join jewish religion
or it's specific for 15 millions jews in the world
Why u closed ur religion despite it's god religion for all creatures
let me at least reform and correct my knowledge
shalom

NewsGuy

03-13-2002, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by fair
Mr .NewsGuy
now u deny and condemn ur protocols
Obadia yousof senile old man
ok
Did you allow for new believers to join jewish religion
or it's specific for 15 millions jews in the world
Why u closed ur religion despite it's god religion for all creatures
let me at least reform and correct my knowledge
shalom

Fair,

1. The most amazing thing about what you write is not that it has no connection to reality, but that you are probably more educated and have more access to information than 99% of your fellow Muslims, and still you believe these anti-Semitic myths.

Instead of my explaining to you that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a fiction produced by a Russian Czarist "information" officer to justify Russian racism and genocide of the Jewish people, or that Adolph Hitler wrote a special introduction for it, I will invite you and anyone else to do your own research. Just type in the phrase "protocols elders zion" into the Google search engine and see what comes up.

If you want a quick summary, you can get it here, or anywhere you find to be objective and reliable:

http://www.adl.org/special_reports/protocols/protocols_intro.html

I would just suggest staying away from Arab and neo-Nazi sites to get a clear picture of the facts.

2. Yes, Ovadia Yosef was investigated by Israel for possible criminal prosecution for incitement.

3. I'm not sure what you mean by "specific for 15 million Jews," and I'm again also not sure what you mean by a secretive religion. There are many people who convert to Judaism every day and I only wish that there were a billion Jews.

If there is anything you want to know about Judaism, it is certainly no secret. Judaism is one of the most written-about religions, with most of the world already sharing the same Jewish Bible.

These things you were told are lies meant to make Jews appear as some evil, secretive people. Please ask yourself honestly why some Muslims are telling these lies.

Maybe it is because they are trying to manipulate you? Maybe it is because if Muslims ever saw Jews for what we really are, they would be embarrassed of their anti-Semitic views and instead focus their anger at the true source of their misery: The brutal and corrupt Arab regimes who use incitement in mosques to divert the people's anger away from the government and towards the Jewish scapegoats instead.

I am curious to know if you ever thought about that possibility? Please tell the truth.

Salaam Aleikum. ;)

Ezra

03-13-2002, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by fair
Ok ezra
I know that u are fanatic jew live in blissed America
but just i asked some questions that u didn't reply
1 - why u closed your religion and changed it to private religion previnted anybody to join it , opposite to the wish of the god

2 - why u repeat every time that u are sematic , especily that this word provoke other people , they suspect that u mean that u are super and proud
arab are sematic and the best people too as mentioned in quran
but we didn't repeat that , like you are doing

judgement of Islam is ..
man yomen falinafsoh wa man yakfor falinafsoh
mean
who get in faith it's up to him .. who will be infidel it's up to him

Mr. Fair,
First, I said before that I'm Christian and very proud with my Christianity.

Second, I never mention anything about "sematic". Can you please refer to ANY message I ever wrote before that has this word?

Thridly, YOU ARE A BIG LIAR.. Because "hokm el-reddah" (the rule of converting from Islam) is "el-ragm 7atta el-moot" (To be thrown with stones till death)..

MR. FAIR, ENOUGH LIES.. IF YOU ARE THAT ASHAME OF YOUR "RELIGIOUS" WHY DO YOU KEEP IT?

L@mplighterM

03-13-2002, 06:09 PM

There's converts to Judism every day. But hey you still haven't answered my question Mr.fair regarding your women. So I'll answer it for you. They are dead murdered by the followers of the Koran.

victot

03-14-2002, 05:11 AM

Fair:
in truth, judaism doesn't actively search for new converts. If people convert to judaism, they must convince rabbis that they are truly willing to live the jewish way of life. there is a lot to judaism, there are a lot of rules and prayers to follow, and i think it is considered disrespectful to g-d for people to convert to judaism and not really mean it. that being said, if one shows that they are truly willing to live a jewish way of life, they can convert.

jews do try to be a "light to nations" though...
in judaism, jews try to give a light unto the nations through being an example of righteous behavior.

under jewish theology, you dont have to be jewish to get to heaven. it is said that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. that means that if you're a good athiest, muslim, christian... you will be rewarded in the afterlife.
as a matter fact, to judaism, islam is the least blasphemous religion out there... that means that judaism believes that islam is the closest religion to the real thing, asides from judaism.

lamplighter...
if you check the stats of these countries, it is true there are more men then women...
but women still do live longer then men.

L@mplighterM

03-14-2002, 11:14 AM

if you check the stats of these countries, it is true there are more men then women...
but women still do live longer then men.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????

The question still remains WHERE HAVE ALL THE WOMEN GONE?

fair

03-14-2002, 11:47 AM

these are the verses
explain Gehad of moslems as mention in Quraan

albaqara verse

[190] Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
[191] And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
[192] But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

almomta3ena verse

[8] Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
[9] Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out, of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

NewsGuy

03-14-2002, 12:04 PM

Fair,

I think you're leaving out many other verses that call for the slaughter of non-Muslims.

Ezra has already pointed out those verses and ,as usual, I have seen no response from you directly to the points being made.

L@mplighterM

03-14-2002, 12:32 PM

I'll tell u fair the Koran is responsible for the death of every Jew in the middle east. The Koran gave the inspiration for the bombing of the Pentagon and the World Trade Centers. The Koran is the source of the evil applied by Islamic Fundamendalists.

The End

Not only that statistically there's 10's of millions of your women missing most likely murdered in honour killings. Nice book this so called Koran.

fair

03-15-2002, 05:07 AM

verses of Ezra
are Israeli made and american issue

fair

03-15-2002, 05:34 AM

NewsGuy , L@mplighterM

first
Iam not full time for net , Ihave to work to feed my babies
I can,t reply after one hour because Iam not strong Moslem
ihave to refer to islam sources first
second
Israeli unfair actions against land owners responsible for all problems not Quraan
like stealing of palestinian land to establish settelments
shotting of palestinians and doing atrocities when asking their rights

Ezra

03-15-2002, 10:47 AM

MR. FAIR..

YOU ARE LIAR LIAR LIAR… WOULD LIKE ME TO SCAN THESE VERSES IN ARABIC FOR YOU?

ENOUGH OF LIES.

IF I GOT SCANNED PAGES OF YOUR QORUAN WITH THESE EXACT VERSES, WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO ADMIT THAT YOUR KORAN IS CRAB?

andak01

01-12-2003, 02:02 AM

It's nice that you know the Koran so well. Now how about some context. Remember, the context doesn't always come from the words. Gulliver's Travels is not a travelogue of the land of Lilliput, but a satire of British society of the 18th century. We could never know that from reading the words. The Koran was revealed for all time AND in response to certain events during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). A Tafsir will explain the historic context.

"The Women" [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Verse 4.88 mentions specifically that this is in reference to the hypocrites. Historically, this group was the group in Medina that promised to come to the aid of the Muslims during battle and then turned on them. So what this verse really means is that if someone states or signs a treaty (as did the Medinans) that they will fight next to you and then turns during battle, they have committed treason and should be dealt with accordingly. The hypocrites are those non-believers that pretend to believe when they are with Muslims and then plot against them behind their backs. And hypocrites are clearly not the same as non-believers. Surah Baqarah makes this clear distinction in the first few verses.

[4.91] You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given.you a clear authority.

Same verses, and if we had read 4.88 we would know we are referring to hypocrites and not Infidels.

4:88 Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.

The Dinner Table - [5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Once again, read the verse above and you will see that the Koran is speaking much as Jesus (SAW) spoke of the Pharisees, that the word of God was given to these people, but that they do not follow it. Although, there are Christians and Jews that come closer to following it than others. A Muslim aquaintance of mine visited a Jehovah's Witness hall and remarked on the similarities of their faith. They eat no pork and many of the women cover their heads. The same is true of some Orthodox Jews. Our similarities are greater than our differences. So, it is not Christians and Jews per se, but those who would lead us away from God that we are to avoid. And few would argue that spending a great deal of time with people doesn't affect one. Hanging around with pious persons tends to strengthen one's religion and hanging out with debauchees tends to weaken it.

5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

The Cattle - [6.146] And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones: this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful.

Even if this reads exactly as it is stated here, and I can see that there is additional context (after all, it is the 146th verse of a much larger Surah standing on its own), even if...it still doesn't say anything at all about Muslims punishing, killing or in any way oppressing Jews. Many peoples have felt God's punishments. Isn't it a blessing that those who are pious would obey God's law (and this clearly states that the Jews who follow the prohibitions are following God's law).

[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

If it is left to Allah to destroy them, then what reason is there for any Muslim to lay a hand on them??? This does not say for Muslims to do anything, it is a statement of belief. The Bible states clearly that anyone who denies that Jesus is God is a liar.

1 John 005:010 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

And this is what we find in Exodus:

023:024 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

This is one of the most quoted verses of all (most quoted by Christians and Atheists). It is clearly (if you bother to read the verses directly before and after it) a historic reference. And even if not taken in historic context, the full verse states that only those Infidels who break treaties and refuse all warnings are to be pursued, and then only until they stop waging war. If this were not true, then Mohammad (SAW), who we should rightly assume was the most strict Muslim that ever lived, would never have given amnesty to the Meccans. They were not forced to convert, or massacred following the return of the Muslims.

The Congregation [62.6] Say: O you who are Jews, if you think that you are the favorites of Allah to the exclusion of other people, then invoke death If you are truthful.

No. This is not (as our helpful commentator would tell you) a call for suicide. This is a call to put up or shut up. Any of us may profess great faith, but how many would be willing to give up this life if we were called. In fact it was a Jew, a very great Jew who offered up his son. We still speak highly of Abraham (SAW). In many ways he can be thought of as the founder of Islam.

The Cow - [2.111] And they say: None shall enter the garden (or paradise) except he who is a Jew or a Christian. These are their vain desires. Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.

And according to Christians, all Muslims and all Jews are going to burn in Hell. Can't we be a little more constructive in our discourse?

The Women - [4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one god; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

(CLEARLY STATES THAT JESUS IS **NOT** THE SON OF GOD)

Yes. And while that may be shocking to a Christian, I don't believe that Jews believe it either. That is our belief. It doesn't lower Jesus as much as it raises God.

The Dinner Table [5.14] And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.

Yes, Allah- not Muslims, Allah. So where does this say that Muslims have any right, much less obligation to oppress Christians? I don't see it.

andak01

01-12-2003, 02:03 AM

[5.72] Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

Which is pretty much what Christians say about Muslims and Jews. Once again, it doesn't say that Muslims have a right to mistreat Christians.

(Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9: 5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29). Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85). It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5: 11), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28). It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193).

I will give one example of how 2: 193 is taken out of context. You can look up the others for yourself. Try reading a line or two before and after.

2:190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

Why stop there. We can read the verse itself and see that it doesn't say what we are told above that it says.

2:193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

It's around 3am and I'm tired. I've already gone through most of these same quotes before. Interestingly, I have never heard them issue forth from the mouths of the radical Imams, the one's who should be using these verses to further their cause. I'm certain that if they had the same interpretation of them, they would. But they don't interpret them that way at all.

andak01

01-12-2003, 12:13 PM

Islam is built upon two basic facts:
1) It's the only correct religion (Koran says the religion to God is only the Islam).
2) Every Muslim should join the Jihad against any non-Muslim till they become Muslims.

It took you twenty years to learn that??? I would suggest that you could have spent your time better. The first words a Muslim says are:

Ashadu an la illaha illa Allah,
Wa ashhadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasooluhu.

There is none worthy of worship but Allah, and Muhammad is a slave and a messenger of Allah.

In the tradition of Abraham, we worship one abstract non-anthropomorphic God. We submit (saleem) so that we may receive peace (salaam). These two words combined are Islam.

We believe that we are judged on the weight of our good and bad deeds. We believe that oppressing others is a very great sin and that removing such oppression when we see it is an obligation. For that reason, Islam stopped the practice of female infanticide that was common in the Arabian penninsula before them. It forbade the wastful and unhealthy practice of drinking and required that women were allowed to become financially stable instead of being treated like slaves.

In addition to that, there are five pillars:

1) Declaration of Faith
2) Prayer
3) Charity
4) Fasting
5) Pilgrimage to Mecca

The books of Bukhari are laid out according to their importance with books on faith and explanation of prayer practices coming near the beginning. If we pass through 52 such books, we arrive at last at the subject of Greater Jihad. This is a set of rules for warfare created over one thousand years before the Geneva convention. Among other things, it forbids the killing of women and children and wrongful theft of war booty.

Many Muslims have never read the Book of Hadith relating to warfare. We are not required to unless we find ourselves at war. Like Christians who make a religion of the Book of Revelations while ignoring the rest of the Bible, some Muslims have put undue and distorted emphasis upon this aspect of Islam. It happens that some of those Muslims (Mujjahhideen/Taliban) were trained in the art of killing by the CIA and given weapons. Others were sold weapons and traded information about killing across more conventional channels (Saddam). While I believe that it was not the intention of America to create the present situation and while I believe they only exacerbated preexisting situations, pouring gasoline on the fire (i.e. providing radicallized religious militias with modern weaponry and knowledge of special ops methods) was in retrospect not such a bright idea.

andak01

01-12-2003, 12:14 PM

Islam is built upon two basic facts:
1) It's the only correct religion (Koran says the religion to God is only the Islam).
2) Every Muslim should join the Jihad against any non-Muslim till they become Muslims.

It took you twenty years to learn that??? I would suggest that you could have spent your time better. The first words a Muslim says are:

Ashadu an la illaha illa Allah,
Wa ashhadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasooluhu.

There is none worthy of worship but Allah, and Muhammad is a slave and a messenger of Allah.

In the tradition of Abraham, we worship one abstract non-anthropomorphic God. We submit (saleem) so that we may receive peace (salaam). These two words combined are Islam.

We believe that we are judged on the weight of our good and bad deeds. We believe that oppressing others is a very great sin and that removing such oppression when we see it is an obligation. For that reason, Islam stopped the practice of female infanticide that was common in the Arabian penninsula before them. It forbade the wastful and unhealthy practice of drinking alcohol and required that women were allowed to become financially stable instead of being treated like slaves.

In addition to that, there are five pillars:

1) Declaration of Faith
2) Prayer
3) Charity
4) Fasting
5) Pilgrimage to Mecca

The books of Bukhari are laid out according to their importance with books on faith and explanation of prayer practices coming near the beginning. If we pass through 52 such books, we arrive at last at the subject of Greater Jihad. This is a set of rules for warfare created over one thousand years before the Geneva convention. Among other things, it forbids the killing of women and children and wrongful theft of war booty.

Many Muslims have never read the Book of Hadith relating to warfare. We are not required to unless we find ourselves at war. Like Christians who make a religion of the Book of Revelations while ignoring the rest of the Bible, some Muslims have put undue and distorted emphasis upon this aspect of Islam. It happens that some of those Muslims (Mujjahhideen/Taliban) were trained in the art of killing by the CIA and given weapons. Others were sold weapons and traded information about killing across more conventional channels (Saddam). While I believe that it was not the intention of America to create the present situation and while I believe they only exacerbated preexisting situations, pouring gasoline on the fire (i.e. providing radicallized religious militias with modern weaponry and knowledge of special ops methods) was in retrospect not such a bright idea.

andak01

01-12-2003, 12:45 PM

It occurs to me that I neglected to mention the Palestinian situation in the above post. After all, it isn't just the Taliban and Al Qaida and Saddam we are fighting, it's the suicide bombers of Palestine and the Hezbollah as well. It cannot be said that the United States finances these people as they did the Taliban (Enron even invited the Taliban to Houston to entertain them).

The most important issue Islamically is that of killing innocent people. The radical imams have declared that no Israeli is innocent because they all eventually are required to serve in the military. And the Islamists claim that the oppression of being pushed off their lands represents a cause for Lesser Jihad. Now the American Indians and the South African Zulus suffered a similar injustice. I would not argue that either group be given back their land. On the other hand, both of these latter groups have seen both a stableization and an improvement in their treatment by those who took their land. We do not sit in wait for the Indians to start another war, nor do we expect the black South Africans to start massive rioting. But neither of these present situations was brought about without a good deal of pain and bloodshed. And atrocities were committed by both the Zulus and the American Indians in defense of their land.

So am I whitewashing? No. Self exploding Palestinians are no better than raping and pillaging Indians or Zulus with their elaborate tortures. And to be honest, it would seem that all three of these groups had some bloody history prior to being occupied. But so did the peoples that occupied and ultimately oppressed them. The bottom line is that these events don't happen in a vacuum. How many suicide assassinations did we see against Jews in Palestine prior to 1917?

Mediocrates

01-12-2003, 02:39 PM

So it comes down in the end to a defence of barbarity based on the fact that man's history is violent. That may be an explanation of violent video games but not a social or political excuse for murder. Sorry.

. How many suicide assassinations did we see against Jews in Palestine prior to 1917?

...that speaks to ability not intent.

andak01

01-12-2003, 02:48 PM

Muhammad (SAW) was the strictest Muslim that ever lived and he didn't even kill all the Jews of Mecca (which he certainly had the power to do. He did kill those who committed treason against him while giving amnesty to those that did not. Non-Muslims of Mecca were promised that they would be safe in their homes, around the Kaaba or at the market. And that amnesty extended to Hind, a women who performed cannabalism on the remains of the Prophet's uncle.

Now if the strictest of Muslims and the founder of Islam did not practice genocide on the Jews when he had it in his power to do so, how do you explain it? Was he breaking the rules or following them?

Mediocrates

01-12-2003, 03:09 PM

dunno, they're your rules, lots of people kill on orders, real or imagined. In long war between Saladin and Reynaud de Chatillon I'm sure everyone involved was killing in the name of peace and honor, god country and flag.

ibrodsky

01-12-2003, 03:20 PM

ibrodsky

01-12-2003, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by andak01
It occurs to me that I neglected to mention the Palestinian situation in the above post. After all, it isn't just the Taliban and Al Qaida and Saddam we are fighting, it's the suicide bombers of Palestine and the Hezbollah as well. It cannot be said that the United States finances these people as they did the Taliban (Enron even invited the Taliban to Houston to entertain them).

Right. But Enron was simply pursuing a pipeline; they had no position on whether the Taliban were right or wrong, they just saw them as the reigning authority.

The most important issue Islamically is that of killing innocent people. The radical imams have declared that no Israeli is innocent because they all eventually are required to serve in the military. And the Islamists claim that the oppression of being pushed off their lands represents a cause for Lesser Jihad. Now the American Indians and the South African Zulus suffered a similar injustice. I would not argue that either group be given back their land. On the other hand, both of these latter groups have seen both a stableization and an improvement in their treatment by those who took their land. We do not sit in wait for the Indians to start another war, nor do we expect the black South Africans to start massive rioting. But neither of these present situations was brought about without a good deal of pain and bloodshed. And atrocities were committed by both the Zulus and the American Indians in defense of their land.

While I agree that great injustice was done to the American Indians and native South Africans, and that these tribal peoples also committed atrocities, it isn't that simple.

At some point we have to grapple with the question of whether the developed world is/was obligated to cede vast expanses of territory to nomads who made extremely inefficient use of land. And that is an understatement.

However, neither of these examples are terribly relevant to the ME conflict. By 1947 the Arabs had already been given the bulk of Palestine. Plus, they continue to possess the vast expanses of Arabia and North Africa. Add to this the fact that the Arabs in Palestine had not been masters of that land for >500 years and were outnumbered by Jews in the tiny coastal area of western Palestine that they claimed, and you must reach the conclusion that the Arab refusal to accept the UN's proposed partition was and is the source of the conflict.

So am I whitewashing? No. Self exploding Palestinians are no better than raping and pillaging Indians or Zulus with their elaborate tortures. And to be honest, it would seem that all three of these groups had some bloody history prior to being occupied. But so did the peoples that occupied and ultimately oppressed them. The bottom line is that these events don't happen in a vacuum. How many suicide assassinations did we see against Jews in Palestine prior to 1917?

Yes, you are whitewashing. Because the examples don't apply. Zionists never tried to take all or even a significant portion of Arab land. Jews have lived continuously in Israel for 3,000 years. Jews were the largest group in Jerusalem since the 1840s. Most of the Arabs who lost land were Arabs who left at the urging of their brothers or to get out of the way of the (promised) victorious Arab armies.

Arguably, the Jews who lived for centuries in Arab countries as dhimmis were the "Indians" in such an analogy.

The bottom line is that when you speak of events not happening "in a vacuum" you are using the same old moral double-talk.

Unfortunately, I find that many Muslims have no real sense of individual responsibility. At best, they say they are obligated to perform functions as specified by their religion. Rather than thinking critically about whether the situation demands what is commonly accepted, they simply quote the Koran and rush into battle.

The fact that we did not see suicide mass murder attacks "prior to 1917" is irrelevant. Jewish immigration, which was legal and did not threaten Arab land (70% of the land belonged to the Ottoman state), was not yet significant. Nor were explosives as advanced as they became later with the introduction of small but powerful plastic explosives.

There are no excuses for purposely mass murdering women, children, and elderly. There are no mitigating circumstances, nor could there ever be. The argument that all Israelis will eventually serve in the IDF is patently absurd. What kind of moral system says "It's OK to kill children because we have foreknowledge of what they will do when they grow up"? Palestinian Jihad-genocide, if it makes any distinctions at all, goes after foreign workers, women, the elderly (who presumably will never serve again in the IDF), and those with medical and religious deferments.

andak01

01-12-2003, 07:17 PM

To hear some people tell the story the Jews were so superior to the local backwards Arab population and so prevailent and so powerful that it is a wonder that the Palestinians didn't cede them whatever they wanted out of pure gratitude. Then, the other side makes it sound like no Jew had ever set foot in Palestine prior to 1917. The fact is, the Ottoman Sultan was given an option to create a settlement for Jews and he refused. That with 20/20 hindsight had proven to be one of the worst decisions in history.

abu afak

01-12-2003, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by andak01

We believe that we are judged on the weight of our good and bad deeds. We believe that oppressing others is a very great sin and that removing such oppression when we see it is an obligation. For that reason, Islam stopped the practice of female infanticide that was common in the Arabian penninsula before them. It forbade the wastful and unhealthy practice of drinking alcohol and required that women were allowed to become financially stable instead of being treated like slaves.

REALLY?

Islamic Nations Slaughter, Enslave Christians
December 16, 2001
by Tom Barrett Editor@ConservativeTruth.org

THERE IS NOT ONE CHRISTIAN NATION ON EARTH WHERE MUSLIMS ARE PERSECUTED. Yet in 83% of nations where the majority of the population are Muslims, there is systematic government persecution of Christians. (See "Religious Freedom in the Majority Islamic Countries" in the Resources section below.) This persecution includes imposing the death penalty for sharing the Christian faith with a Muslim; national laws prohibiting conversion from Islam to Christianity; destruction of churches; and murder or expulsion of Christian missionaries. Even in the few predominantly Muslim countries where the government does not openly participate in the persecution, it ignores and even encourages illegal persecution by Muslims against Christians.

I spent hours going through the well-documented profiles of the forty-six countries listed in the report mentioned above. Of these, six did not have significant Muslim populations. Of the thirty-nine with a strong Muslim majority, only seven could be considered to be either neutral or tolerant toward their Christian minorities. If the United States were to treat its roughly two million Muslims with one-tenth of the violence and humiliation that these Islamic nations heap on their Christians, the worldwide outcry would be immediate, and justified. Why, then, does the "Community of Nations," including the United States, turn a deaf ear to the cries of the persecuted Christians in Muslim nations?

The laws of most of these Islamic nations give lip service to religious freedom. Nothing could be further from the truth. In most of the countries I researched, the death penalty was common for converting from Islam to Christianity (or any other religion). Christians receive no protection from these governments when they are persecuted; indeed, most often the governments themselves are the persecutors. Children of Christians are stolen from their parents so that they can be raised as Muslims. Speaking about Christianity to a Muslim can result in beatings, long prison sentences and even death.

The most urgent situation demanding our attention today is in Indonesia, which has the largest Muslim population of any non-Arab country. There Islamic fundamentalists have promised a bloodbath of Christians before Christmas. This is no idle threat; in 1996 Islamic fundamentalists slaughtered 3,000 Christians in East Timor. More recently, a group called Laskar Jihad, which hails Osama bin Laden as its hero, slaughtered thousands of Christians with the help of government troops. (See "Christians Terrorized in Muslim Indonesia" in the Resources section.) An Indonesian military officer is quoted as saying that the government has the power to stop the Jihad, but government officials "all the way to the top" profit from it. Their goal is nothing less than to exterminate every Christian in Indonesia or force them to leave. According to Steven Snyder, the president of International Christian Concern who visited Indonesia in November, about 15,000 Laskar Jihad troops equipped with AK-47 assault rifles, rocket launchers and bulldozers are threatening to kill 50,000 Christians and destroy their homes and churches in the next week.

In Sudan, Christians are sold into slavery or murdered for no other crime than naming the Name of Christ. Over two million have been murdered, and 200,000 have been sold into slavery by their government. An organization named Christian Solidarity International (PLEASE visit C.S.I.’s website listed in Resources Section) has raised money to buy almost 60,000 slaves from their captors and free them. One 22-year-old Protestant girl, a virgin, was captured by government soldiers and raped repeatedly for five days as she was marched through the jungle tied to twenty other slaves. Many women and children died during this march. She was then used as a slave and forced to study Islam until bought out of slavery by C.S.I. You can read her complete story and those of other slaves at http://www.csi-int.ch/csi-trp/csi-trp_0003a.htm (scroll down to section IV, item B).

What about our "allies"? You can dress a monster up in a pinstriped suit, teach him to speak formally and use the right fork at state dinners, and put him in a group of diplomats for for a photo opportunity, but that doesn’t make him civilized. Our "friends" in the international community, including Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, and our most recent buddy, Pakistan, are all guilty of atrocities against Christians based on nothing other than their profession of faith. Let me emphasize that we are not talking about a radical minority of citizens acting on their own. We are talking about systematic state persecution, state murder and state crimes against humanity, all legal according to the various constitutions and laws of these vicious nations.

Let’s start with our "friend and ally," Saudi Arabia. Their "Constitution" is the Koran. This nation, whose population is 98% Muslim, finances Islamic terrorist groups in moderate Islamic nations which force conversion to Islam under the threat of death. In Saudi Arabia, rape is punishable by death- unless it is a Muslim man violating a Christian woman. The Saudis are so rich from their oil that most refuse to do common labor, so they import six million foreign workers. Of these, ten percent are Christians. They are not allowed to wear a cross in public and or to celebrate Christmas, but are forced to observe Ramadan. Christians, even tourists, have been arrested by the Religious Police for participating in prayer meetings in private homes. Any who speak of their faith publicly are tortured in an attempt to convert them to Islam. Those who refuse are executed. Punishment for distributing Bibles can range from lashes with a whip or amputation of a limb, to beheading.

Turkey, our "military ally", is 99.8% Muslim. Recently, eight Americans were arrested in Turkey for the "crime" of giving away copies of the New Testament. In 1974 Turkey overran Cyprus - which is 80% Christian - and has ruled that small nation with an iron fist since then. The Turkish government expelled thousands of Orthodox Christians, then took a thousand-year-old monastery and turned it into a mosque! Imagine the international outcry if a mosque anywhere were to be stolen by a government and turned into a Christian church.

Egypt, described by our State Department as a "friend of the United States" is one of the worst persecutors of Christians. In Cairo an entire Christian neighborhood was set on fire by Islamic terrorists. Children were thrown out of windows in front of their horrified parents, churches were burned and Christian’s homes destroyed. This went on for two days without the government doing anything to stop it. Egyptian security forces have been accused by eye-witnesses of raping, then crucifying adolescent girls.

In Pakistan recently a 14-year-old Christian girl was kidnapped, forced to convert to Islam, then raped and given to a Muslim to be one of his wives. The pleas of her parents were ignored by the police. In 1997, Islamic extremists, aided by Pakistani police, destroyed the homes of 800 Christians as well as thirteen churches, because they had "insulted Islam." A few weeks ago six children and nine adults were gunned down as they worshiped in a Christian church. This terrorist nation is our newest "ally" in the war against terrorism.

The Libyan government took a Christian Cathedral and converted it to a mosque. In Kuwait, the nation America’s military saved from a brutal occupation by Iraq, the government tries to bribe Christians to convert to Islam. A Kuwaiti Christian was recently condemned to die by the religious court for converting from Islam. It should come as no surprise that 150,000 Christians have fled Iraq to avoid persecution. Over 150 Christian churches have been demolished in Iraq, where death is the penalty for proclaiming faith in Christ, and where Saddam Hussein has proclaimed himself "The Defender of the Islamic Faith."

Hundreds of Christian missionaries have been murdered in Algeria and other Islamic nations. Iran pretends to have religious freedom, but students in all schools are forced to study Islam, as are draftees in their military services. Conversion to any religion other than Islam brings a swift death sentence. If space permitted, I could give hundreds of other examples of atrocities committed by Muslims against Christians simply because of their faith. The events I have described are happening as you read this. Christians are being tortured today because they will not convert to Islam. Christians are dying today because they dare to speak the Name of Christ.

Our President has stated repeatedly that Islam is a peaceful religion which has "been hijacked by radicals." I know why he makes that statement. If Bush said anything else, he would be labeled a hate-monger, as I am sure I will be for speaking the truth. The facts speak for themselves. Do the research, as I have done. Eighty-three percent of the governments of nations with a Muslim majority kill, enslave, and persecute Christians with the blessings (and very often, the complicity) of their Islamic clergy.
....""

http://www.conservativetruth.org/archives/tombarrett/12-16-01.shtml

andak01

01-13-2003, 03:52 AM

Abu, you could really post a link or some highlights instead of an entire article. And I would rather hear what your own opinion is anyway.

Quotes of Tom Barrett

THERE IS NOT ONE CHRISTIAN NATION ON EARTH WHERE MUSLIMS ARE PERSECUTED.

Outside of Vatican City, I don't know of a single Christian theocracy that is left. Is he saying that Christian theocracies didn't carry on the same kinds of policies under the Popes? One single example is the kidnapping of children for the purpose of conversion. These were taken mostly from Jewish families and placed in Catholic orphanages. And this practice went on until the 19th century.

Yet in 83% of nations where the majority of the population are Muslims, there is systematic government persecution of Christians.

Some of them, like Somolia and Nigeria have mob rule. And others have more or less theocratic governments. In the ones that clearly don't Morocco, Turkey for example, you don't see very much of this sort of thing at all. I guess they make up the 17%.

If the United States were to treat its roughly two million Muslims with one-tenth of the violence and humiliation that these Islamic nations heap on their Christians, the worldwide outcry would be immediate, and justified.

I believe there has been world outcry about the treatment of the American Indians. Huge religious intolerance was practiced with them. They were forced to go to Christian schools where they said Christian prayers et cetera. The same was true during the Colonial periods in the Muslim countries. I know many Arabs that attended Catholic schools because they were forced to. One story that would be funny if it weren't so sad is a Senegalese that I met who attended a French Catholic school. There he was beaten for saying a word of Wolof (his native tongue) and at home he was beaten for saying a word of French.

Why, then, does the "Community of Nations," including the United States, turn a deaf ear to the cries of the persecuted Christians in Muslim nations?

They don't. I have read scores of articles such as this one. The local Christian stations and internet sites make certain that we are fully aware of anything negative done by any Muslim anywhere in the world. With one fifth of the world's population Muslim, it isn't hard to find something new everyday. We have hate crime laws in America precisely for the reason that if we didn't, our primarily Christian hateful population would go around lynching Jews and blacks and anyone else that didn't agree with them.

Christians receive no protection from these governments when they are persecuted; indeed, most often the governments themselves are the persecutors. Children of Christians are stolen from their parents so that they can be raised as Muslims.

Wow! Didn't I mention this before. Yes. This sort of thing happens in theocracies, be they Christian or Muslim. I don't believe it accords with the tenets of either faith.

The most urgent situation demanding our attention today is in Indonesia, which has the largest Muslim population of any non-Arab country. There Islamic fundamentalists have promised a bloodbath of Christians before Christmas. This is no idle threat; in 1996 Islamic fundamentalists slaughtered 3,000 Christians in East Timor. More recently, a group called Laskar Jihad, which hails Osama bin Laden as its hero, slaughtered thousands of Christians with the help of government troops. (See "Christians Terrorized in Muslim Indonesia" in the Resources section.) An Indonesian military officer is quoted as saying that the government has the power to stop the Jihad, but government officials "all the way to the top" profit from it. Their goal is nothing less than to exterminate every Christian in Indonesia or force them to leave.

I wish he would explain wherein lies the profit?

According to Steven Snyder, the president of International Christian Concern who visited Indonesia in November, about 15,000 Laskar Jihad troops equipped with AK-47 assault rifles, rocket launchers and bulldozers are threatening to kill 50,000 Christians and destroy their homes and churches in the next week.

I would like a second source for this. A Christian that goes to an Islamic country with the express purpose of converting people from Islam is hardly an unbiased news source. I haven't heard about any 50,000 people being killed in Indonesia. And presumably this article was written over a week ago.

In Sudan, Christians are sold into slavery or murdered for no other crime than naming the Name of Christ. Over two million have been murdered, and 200,000 have been sold into slavery by their government. An organization named Christian Solidarity International (PLEASE visit C.S.I.’s website listed in Resources Section) has raised money to buy almost 60,000 slaves from their captors and free them. One 22-year-old Protestant girl, a virgin, was captured by government soldiers and raped repeatedly for five days as she was marched through the jungle tied to twenty other slaves. Many women and children died during this march. She was then used as a slave and forced to study Islam until bought out of slavery by C.S.I. You can read her complete story and those of other slaves at http://www.csi-int.ch/csi-trp/csi-trp_0003a.htm (scroll down to section IV, item B).

Our "friends" in the international community, including Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, and our most recent buddy, Pakistan, are all guilty of atrocities against Christians based on nothing other than their profession of faith.

Well no. Every Muslim country has had flourishing Christian populations until fairly recently. Even today it is quite acceptable to be Christian in any of those countries (I was going to except Saudi Arabia, but it occurred to me that thousands of non-Muslims do live happily there as well). It is illegal in Sharia countries to go around prosyletizing and handing out Bibles. The missionaries who arrive in these places are quite aware of those laws and they break them on purpose, then they publicize everything that happens to them after they have broken these laws. Professing the Christian faith is not a crime even in Saudi Arabia. Trying to convert people is. Whether the author agrees with that law or not, his statement is false.

Let’s start with our "friend and ally," Saudi Arabia. Their "Constitution" is the Koran.

This is false. The Constitution is based on Sharia law which in turn has the Koran as one of its basis. There are many other inputs as well and it is oversimplistic and insulting to say otherwise. Our own system is at heart based on Mosaic law, but we have some 200+ years of secular ammendments.

In Saudi Arabia, rape is punishable by death- unless it is a Muslim man violating a Christian woman.

I don't know about this particular one, but I have decried Saudi Sharia for years. The only instance I have ever been able to find of a rape case during the life of Prophet Muhammad (SAW), the man was sentenced to death, and BTW only on the witness of the woman. That means that the penalty for rape according to Sharia should be death.

Christians, even tourists, have been arrested by the Religious Police for participating in prayer meetings in private homes. Any who speak of their faith publicly are tortured in an attempt to convert them to Islam. Those who refuse are executed. Punishment for distributing Bibles can range from lashes with a whip or amputation of a limb, to beheading.

The Tablighis as they are known are committing crimes against Islam when they do these things.

There is no compulsion in religion - Surah Baqarah

Study the life of Muhammad and you will see just how far they have strayed.

Turkey, our "military ally", is 99.8% Muslim.

That is really difficult to believe. I'll look up the numbers on this one.

2000 population was 71,553,551. .2% is 143,000. The foreign, largely non-Muslim population of Saudi Arabia is 4.6 million. And Turkey has only 143,000??? I don't think so.

Imagine the international outcry if a mosque anywhere were to be stolen by a government and turned into a Christian church.

Spain is dotted with such instances. Most of the cathedrals of the world were built from the destruction of pagan monuments. One example is the gold on St. Peters that came from the Pantheon.

Our President has stated repeatedly that Islam is a peaceful religion which has "been hijacked by radicals." I know why he makes that statement. If Bush said anything else, he would be labeled a hate-monger, as I am sure I will be for speaking the truth.

Well, I have come across at least three errors in this report. I don't agree with Bush on much, but in this case he is right. If the author had studied the actions of Muhammad (SAW) instead of the actions of those who claim to follow him, he would know that they have taken a serious detour. Muhammad never forbid women from getting an education. He never punished a woman for being raped. He gave amnesty to the non-Muslim people of Mecca.

No. A hate monger is not one who points out human rights abuses. A hate monger is someone who tries to extend the blame for said abuses to groups that have nothing to do with it for the purpose of political gain.

abu afak

01-13-2003, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by andak01
Abu, you could really post a link or some highlights instead of an entire article. And I would rather hear what your own opinion is anyway.

Outside of Vatican City, I don't know of a single Christian theocracy that is left. Is he saying that Christian theocracies didn't carry on the same kinds of policies under the Popes? One single example is the kidnapping of children for the purpose of conversion. These were taken mostly from Jewish families and placed in Catholic orphanages. And this practice went on until the 19th century.

Some of them, like Somolia and Nigeria have mob rule. And others have more or less theocratic governments. In the ones that clearly don't Morocco, Turkey for example, you don't see very much of this sort of thing at all. I guess they make up the 17%.

In Sudan, Christians are sold into slavery or murdered for no other crime than naming the Name of Christ. Over two million have been murdered, and 200,000 have been sold into slavery by their government.

Well no. Every Muslim country has had flourishing Christian populations until fairly recently.

This is false. The Constitution is based on Sharia law which in turn has the Koran as one of its basis. There are many other inputs as well and it is oversimplistic and insulting to say otherwise. Our own system is at heart based on Mosaic law, but we have some 200+ years of secular ammendments.

Under Popes? You are comparing 1000 Year old Christianity to today's Islam... An Unwitting comment, but alas true state of where Islam is.

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[Let’s start with our "friend and ally," Saudi Arabia. Their "Constitution" is the Koran.]

andak: "This is false . The Constitution is based on Sharia law which in turn has the Koran as one of its basis. .."""

REALLY?

""..In 1932, an Al-Saud warlord, Abdul Aziz, fulfilled his ancestor's dream; he declared himself sovereign of his own newly conquered territories, which he named the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Abdul Aziz adopted the Islamic holy book, the Koran, as his nation's constitution.

To this day, the official constitution of Saudi Arabia remains the Koran. Saudi officials affirm that their government functions "in total adherence to the Islamic religion."

This might be little more than a political curiosity if not for two factors. First, that a geological twist of fate gave Saudi Arabia considerable prominence in world economic affairs. Secondly - and significantly - Islam is not content to coexist peacefully with other faiths or systems of government...""""
http://freelebanon.org/articles/a345.htm

""... There is no written constitution, but Articles of Government based on the Koran and issued by decree of the King perform the same function..."""

http://www.circa-uk.demon.co.uk/xpage300.html

Some more Detailed information on Christian Persecution in Suadi Arabia can be found here:

"""....The Church in Saudi Arabia is living under the most difficult circumstances. The regime has declared the entire Arabian peninsula 'haram,' forbidden to all other religions, and it is enforcing this prohibition strictly. Freedom of religion does not exist. The Government prohibits the practice of other religions, be it in public or in private. Saudi law states that no churches may be built north of Yemen and south of Jordan. It is impossible for foreigners to visit Saudi Arabia as tourists. One can only enter the kingdom on business visa (i.e. on the invitation of a company already active in the country), or as a Muslim pilgrim. .."""

http://www.gospelcom.net/od/ (go to 'country info')

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andak:""" Well no. Every Muslim country has had flourishing Christian populations until fairly recently. """

Wrong.. but an admission that today Islamic countries DON'T.. Thank you.

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You also asked for another source on Indonesia.. Gladly:

1. "Islamism's Other Victims: The Tragedy of East Timor" :

""....The Left (not to mention the Islamists) never tires of depicting the War on Terror as a case of America vs. Islam. But as readers of this magazine will already know, Moslem fundamentalists have been brutalizing people all over the world for years, and 9/11 was just our belated introduction to the problem. Take, for example, the murderous terror of Indonesian Muslims against Christians in East Timor.......
........ By 1989, Amnesty International estimated that Indonesia had murdered 200,000 East Timorese out of a population of 600,000-700,000. ..
.......Once East Timor was out of the way the next target was the Christian minority in Indonesia itself. In 1999-2000 the persecution, destruction of property, and killing of Indonesia’s Christians amounted a deliberate campaign of religious cleansing, actively abetted by the Indonesian military, which is overwhelmingly Muslim....
......The worst atrocities were committed on the island of Ambon, where an upsurge in violence followed the arrival of 2,000 Laskar Jihad members—a militant Moslem force determined to join the ‘holy war’ against the Christians on the island—from Java and South Sulawesi. Indonesian soldiers sent to the Molucca Islands were fighting alongside militant Muslims, leading to calls by the Christians for a neutral UN peacekeeping force. Most of the fighting took place around the city of Ambon. Violence in North Halmahera has resulted in up to 100,000 people fleeing their homes for the jungles and mountains."""

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=4766

2. http://www.domini.org/openbook/ind20020814.htm

3. HIGH LEVEL ALERT — August 16, 2002

"""..HIGH LEVEL ALERT:
THE MASSACRE OF CHRISTIANS IN INDONESIA HAS BEGUN!
After jihad terrorists have attacked and razed to the ground 5 Christian villages in the last 24 hours and several have been killed and wounded. One child was strangled to death. One elderly man was shot several times. Many others have been killed or badly wounded.

Many have fled into the jungles and tonight are living in fear and terror not knowing what tomorrow will bring. As they huddle in small groups under trees or jungle shrubs, they pray not knowing if they will be hunted down and slaughtered in the jungles or whether they will yet see another dawn.

Intelligence reports provided to us have warned that tonight the town of Tentena is in extreme danger. With thousands of jihad warriors based in Pandajaya to the south, Malino to the east, Poso to the north and only jungles to the west, we are warned that an attempt may be made to attack tonight or early tomorrow morning, as they plan to celebrate Indonesia's Independence Day (August 17) in Tentena. This is a very high level alert and we urge your immediate attention...""

http://www.persecution.org/news/alert2002-08-16.html

The above # 3 Just 2 months before Bali..

4. "Victims of Tolerance" (indonesian Christians)<