US Spying

[michael]

An interesting article that appeared in the Observer, March 2nd;

"The memo describes orders to staff at the agency, whose work is clouded in secrecy, to step up its surveillance operations 'particularly directed at... UN Security Council Members (minus US and GBR, of course)' to provide up-to-the-minute intelligence for Bush officials on the voting intentions of UN members regarding the issue of Iraq.

The leaked memorandum makes clear that the target of the heightened surveillance efforts are the delegations from Angola, Cameroon, Chile, Mexico, Guinea and Pakistan at the UN headquarters in New York - the so-called 'Middle Six' delegations

The memo is directed at senior NSA officials and advises them that the agency is 'mounting a surge' aimed at gleaning information not only on how delegations on the Security Council will vote on any second resolution on Iraq, but also 'policies', 'negotiating positions', 'alliances' and 'dependencies' - the 'whole gamut of information that could give US policymakers an edge in obtaining results favourable to US goals or to head off surprises'.

It was sent by Frank Koza, chief of staff in the 'Regional Targets' section of the NSA, which spies on countries that are viewed as strategically important for United States interests.

Koza specifies that the information will be used for the US's 'QRC' - Quick Response Capability - 'against' the key delegations.

Suggesting the levels of surveillance of both the office and home phones of UN delegation members, Koza also asks regional managers to make sure that their staff also 'pay attention to existing non-UN Security Council Member UN-related and domestic comms [office and home telephones] for anything useful related to Security Council deliberations'. "



Democracy is a fine thing but sometimes it just needs a little helping hand.

[elke]

So, what's your point? You really think that any government, democratic or otherwise, is not in the market for information on other countries?

Grow up! Corporations spy on each other, let alone governments.

[michael]

Originally posted by elke
So, what's your point?


How about - it's illegal. A minor technical detail to be sure.

On an even more frivolous note - the proposed war on Iraq is apparently, at least inpart, to do with our deep concern for democracy. What an edifying example to all those tryannical middle eastern regimes. If you're not sure of the outcome of a democratic process, just start bugging phones, intercept emails and hope to collect some dirt you can then use to "exert pressure".

Let's hope they're all paying due attention to this fine example.

[Mediocrates]

Which is a little like saying that having a police force flies in the face of "all men are created equal" so it must be illegal.

My friends in France and South Africa assure me that sometimes oppressive police state tactics, internal spying and the like INSURE freedom not the other way around. Goes to show I guess...

[michael]

Next time I read criticisms of Middle East regimes that use torture, repression, arbitrary imprisonment and the like, I'll just invoke your name and claim it's enlightened democracy and that they should "grow up" (acknowledgements to elke).

[Salim]

Wouldn't it be appropriate to be better than "them" ?

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by michael
Next time I read criticisms of Middle East regimes that use torture, repression, arbitrary imprisonment and the like, I'll just invoke your name and claim it's enlightened democracy and that they should "grow up" (acknowledgements to elke).


My only point was that seemingly when the police invoke no knock warrants, wiretaps without a court order and outright ban the use of encryption technology, invade privacy in the name of civil order and protection, should it occur in some enlightened country like SA or France no one seems to have a problem with it.

[JustPat]

Perhaps the NSA is actually looking for who it is that is in bed with Saddam and feeding him information. I think it was the French last round. Could they have recruited help?

[elke]

Originally posted by michael
How about - it's illegal. A minor technical detail to be sure.

On an even more frivolous note - the proposed war on Iraq is apparently, at least inpart, to do with our deep concern for democracy. What an edifying example to all those tryannical middle eastern regimes. If you're not sure of the outcome of a democratic process, just start bugging phones, intercept emails and hope to collect some dirt you can then use to "exert pressure".

Let's hope they're all paying due attention to this fine example.

It's still something every country does, illegal or not. All those regimes you mentioned do not need lessons in spying - they are capable of giving them.


Next time I read criticisms of Middle East regimes that use torture, repression, arbitrary imprisonment and the like, I'll just invoke your name and claim it's enlightened democracy and that they should "grow up" (acknowledgements to elke).

How did you get from "US is spying on SC members" to regimes that use torture, etc.? That's a non-sequitur. Spying on diplomats is certainly not equivalent to the actions you mentioned. Yet again, you are confusing things, whether intentionally or not, I do not know.

[michael]

Simple of course.

Democracy is the desired outcome according to the US.

Acts of coercion and superficial democratic forms in other mid-east countries is a favourite topic on this site, so the reaction to these US actions, aimed "against" the key middle six UNSC delegations, is highly informative.

In the former case, it elicits howls of derision of "backward Arabs", "tyrants" etc. In the latter, it's "everyone does it" and "grow up".

A minimal regard for intellectual honesty would see a somewhat different response to these illegal and undemocratic tactics.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by michael
In the former case, it elicits howls of derision of "backward Arabs", "tyrants" etc. In the latter, it's "everyone does it" and "grow up".
Actually, the only derision that I can muster in this thread concerns "backward Australians". Your faux naivete with regard to nations attempting to discover what the other is up to is laughable. Apparently you've come lately to this planet.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by michael Simple of course.

Democracy is the desired outcome according to the US.

Acts of coercion and superficial democratic forms in other mid-east countries is a favourite topic on this site, so the reaction to these US actions, aimed "against" the key middle six UNSC delegations, is highly informative.

In the former case, it elicits howls of derision of "backward Arabs", "tyrants" etc. In the latter, it's "everyone does it" and "grow up".

A minimal regard for intellectual honesty would see a somewhat different response to these illegal and undemocratic tactics.
Democracy is the desired outcome, but there is no way to guarantee that it will come.

I suppose that the French FM's trip involved no coercion, pressure, or bribery. ;)

"Everyone does it" needn't be a defense, but merely a statement of fact. But I suppose that the noble Aussies would not stoop to such tactics. Yeah, right. For any country to unilaterally abandon intelligence collection would be to set yourself up for certain destruction. What would you suggest as an alternative? Open, honest dialogue like we are seeing with this Iraqi issue?

[elke]

Originally posted by michael
Simple of course.

Democracy is the desired outcome according to the US.

Acts of coercion and superficial democratic forms in other mid-east countries is a favourite topic on this site, so the reaction to these US actions, aimed "against" the key middle six UNSC delegations, is highly informative.

In the former case, it elicits howls of derision of "backward Arabs", "tyrants" etc. In the latter, it's "everyone does it" and "grow up".

A minimal regard for intellectual honesty would see a somewhat different response to these illegal and undemocratic tactics.

A minimal regard for intellectual honesty and logic would see that going from "US is spying on SC members" to torture and repression is laughable.

Democracy does not preclude obtaining information on criminal, or even other vital activities, when the only way such information can be obtained is by covert means.

[michael]

In the light of the last few comments on this thread, the developements over the last 2 days regarding spying, are just so exquisitely timed, I can barely believe it.

The US has been busy sending letters to over 60 countries, demanding they expel Iraqi diplomats for, guess what? - spying of course!!

Sadly, Australia has acquiesced to the US demand. I think the only other country to do so is Romania.

This "faux niavete" on the part of the US is indeed interesting MichaelC.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by michael
In the light of the last few comments on this thread, the developements over the last 2 days regarding spying, are just so exquisitely timed, I can barely believe it.

The US has been busy sending letters to over 60 countries, demanding they expel Iraqi diplomats for, guess what? - spying of course!!

Sadly, Australia has acquiesced to the US demand. I think the only other country to do so is Romania.

This "faux niavete" on the part of the US is indeed interesting MichaelC. I'm glad we're more successful at it than they. Ejecting the other guys spys is part of the process. Your ignorance of the general prevalence and procedure concerning the reality of spying is what drew the naive comment.

My derision still stands.