what's a terrorist ... ? [Archive]

NewsGuy

02-26-2002, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by Right defender
the pictures are 100% pure , these killed people were killed by the israeli army , after killing them they have stolen their human organs then they have thrown their bodies and gave them to their family !

Well, I can't really say that there is any indication that this was the body of a Palestinian or not, nor if he was killed by the IDF or by Arafat's hit squads who mutilate the bodies of those they consider to be "collaborators", and whether his organs were "taken" or not.

I highly suspect any pictures or other information being put out by Arab sources, where there is no freedom of the press, nor any public or professional accountability for accuracy, like in open democratic societies.

What I do know, however, is that there are many pictures of women and children murdered in cold blood by Palestinian mass murderers. I'm sure these pictures are also not so pleasant to see.

But, the main factor to remember is that there is an enormous difference to keep in mind. The IDF has only acted in self-defense against Palestinian terrorism and has made every effort to avoid harming Palestinian civilians, even when those hide among the population.

On the other hand, the Palestinian terrorists have made every effort to specifically mass murder innocent Jewish women and children in pizza stores, in shopping malls and at bus stops. What do you thnk was the intention of the Palestinian who just last week entered an Israeli supermarket with a huge explosive and tried to set it off among the shoppers. What would the bodies of those Israeli shoppers have looked like? Probably not a very pretty sight.

That is the main difference.

And you need to ask yourself if there is a Palestinian who opens fire with a machine gun at a crowd of Israelis just standing at a bus stop, killing dozens of innocent people, and then the IDF kills him and there is damage to his face, is that necessarily an injustice. I think not.

NewsGuy

02-26-2002, 08:48 AM

Just came across this, and although I am most definitely NOT an expert at Islam, here is how the Quran recommends that terrorists who harm society are to be dealt with.

The reason I am quoting this here is not to debate the religion, but to show that the Palestinian in your picture (if indeed this was a Palestinian at all), would have expected his actions to result in his mutilation:

Qur'an:

"This is the recompense of those who fight against God and His Messenger, and spread corruption in the land. they shall be put to death, or crucified, or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. That is a degradation for them in this world... (5:33)"

victot

02-26-2002, 09:12 AM

yeah, i gotta say, i don't believe the idf did that...
they removed the guy's organs?!?
anyways, if israel really does have something to do with this, i must say im shocked and dissapointed, as my motto has always been: "don't kill people and then steal their human organs, then throw the bodies, then give them to the familiy."

anyways, i think that terrorism is when a non-government agency targets and kills civilian people who are not the specific cause of why the terrorsits are angry, in an attempt to convince your real enemy that you have the potential to kill and terrorize them and their people...
i think that when a country has elected a goverment which represents them, and then if that government harms another population, then if anything, it is an act of war...
i think the fact that the israeli army acts at the request of the israeli goverment, by definiton negates that they are terrorists. i mean, if 2 peoples have a conflict with eachother, and 1 side can say: there are terrorists amngst us who we "cough, cough donottolerate" and they are the ones who are killing your children so we arent at fault for hurting you, only the terrorists amongst us"
if Israel has an army which is controlled by a democratically elected government, then at least they can be told to stop or continue or do this or do that...
even though in theory an army who kills children could be just as evil as some guy who blows himself up in a pizzeria to kill children, it by definiton cannot be said that the army is a terrorist...

i think if anything, it could be said that israel is oppressing the palestinian people, and that palestian people are committing terrorist acts against israel.
oh well, i think it's a complicated situation there, sigh.

Right defender

02-26-2002, 09:47 AM

News guy….
Are you cheating your self or do you want to cheat us?
There's no suspect that these pictures are concerning Palestinians.
It seems you're trying to cheat people here by any illogical words.

Your accusation to the Arabian press is fault; you don't know Arabian press, so
Don't try to repeat words said by one-sided Israeli people.

These pictures are evidence to the massacres of the Israeli army against Palestinians and if you don't see these pictures in your press, so blame your press not ours.

In spite of escaping from the responsible, face it ( if you really want peace )

Second,
Those who did sacrificial processes against Israelis are civilians too, and there's a belief in the Arab world that there's no civilians in Israel,
Do you ask your self why he sacrifice his life to kill those people you're talking about?
The life of any one in the world is very expensive to him at least, and he scarifies it and wins nothing, that means that his aim is to set his land free.

This is simply the point.

Third,
The translation of the sentence of Koran is faulty, or you don't understand the sentence well, and I consider that a deformation to the main meaning.

You say you're not expert in the Islamic affairs, read first about Islam then come and discuss me about the Koran sentences.

For example, we always say "there's no god but Allah and Mohammed is the prophet of Allah"

You translate it into "there's no god but Allah and Muhammad is the only prophet of Allah"

You know that Muslims believe in all prophets and messengers, but you try to cheat the world by this translation…

NewsGuy

02-26-2002, 10:28 AM

"These pictures are evidence to the massacres of the Israeli army against Palestinians and if you don't see these pictures in your press, so blame your press not ours."

I actually am familiar with the Arab press, which is mostly government-run by brutal dictatorship regimes, and I stand by what I said previously that there is no public accountability for the accuracy of those reports.

As for those pictures being "evidence," they are pictures of a single person (who might or might not be Palestinian), whose body is mutilated. There is no context or anything else that tell any story, other than a mutilated body of a man. We don't know if the man was killed by a car accident, or a shooting or he blew himself up in a suicide bombing. We just don't know from the pictures. I'm sorry that questioning Palestinian propaganda offends you.

And I am not trying to avoid responsibility, but questioning how the man was killed.

So, let's even say that the IDF killed him. Fine.

Why was he killed? What was he doing at the time? Was he mass murdering Israeli children? Was he just waiting for a bus in Gaza? I don't know, so I am asking you for the answer.

But don't expect anyone here just to accept pictures with no context, or other forms of possible propaganda without raising questions which are fair questions, even if they seem to anger you.

"Second,
Those who did sacrificial processes against Israelis are civilians too, and there's a belief in the Arab world that there's no civilians in Israel,"

OK, no offense, but by calling them "sacrificial processes" rather than suicide bombings I see that you are not accepting responsibility.

You can call it anything you'd like. But it does not change the fact that these Shaheeds (suicide bombers) are nothing more than mass murderers who target innocent women and children. If in fact, the pictures you showed are those of a suicide bomber, then he deserves all that and much worse.

"Do you ask your self why he sacrifice his life to kill those people you're talking about?
The life of any one in the world is very expensive to him at least, and he scarifies it and wins nothing, that means that his aim is to set his land free."

Sure, I ask myself, as has the press explored this question in great detail, especially since the September 11th "sacrificial processes" that were carried out in new York.

The answer is simple. These are complete losers with no job, no future, and instead of hard work to bring them success, they find it much easier to blow themselves up, killing as many innocent people as possible, and then hoping for the Islamic "charities to send big checks to their families as a reward.

It seems also that Muslim society places a great prestige on mass murder of Jews and Christians, so long as it can be convinced by some radical cleric that it was for the glory of Allah. I always found it interesting that Muslim society never glorified hard work and societal reedom and progress as a roadmap for success, but instead glorifies mass murder. I honestly don't understand this POV.

And as for gaining land, it is ridiculous that these mass murders are going on, considering that Israel and the Palestinians were engaged in negotiations and reached agreement about the division of land.

So, I don't believe that the terrorism and suicide bombings have to do with "liberating land," unless it is about achieving a genocode of all Jews in al of Israel. I think that;s the real goal of this Arab terrorism.

"Third,
The translation of the sentence of Koran is faulty, ...but you try to cheat the world by this translation… "

Well, I am sorry to tell you that this translation is directly from an Islamic, anti-Israel source, so please don't blame me for the translation. But, the bottom line is that is what the verse says accurately. if not, please show me what you consider to be an accurate translation, instaed of accusing me of "cheating the world."

And again, no offense, but I have noticed often that some Arabs like to accuse others of "cheating the world," but those Arabs do not respond with actual facts to back up these accusations.

Mr. Defender, you need to argue with facts, not just accusations.

NewsGuy

02-26-2002, 10:40 AM

By the way, I just saw this story come in on CNN.

I wonder if you describe these terrible actions as terrorist action or not, and how you compare this to yesterday's shooting (or as you might call it "sacrificial process") at the Jerusalem bus top that left 10 badly wounded Israelis, 4 of them in critical condition.

Here's the story to compare your definition of terrorism:

Ten killed at Pakistan mosque (http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/26/pakistan.shooting/index.html)

Right defender

02-27-2002, 09:23 AM

News guy....

Hey man....

You say that you need to know how they were killed, ok,
i said my words , if you believe, believe , if not it doesn't matter ,,,,
I will not convince a blind man to see the pictures!

They were killed by Israeli army, whatever the reasons…
The right doesn't give Israeli soldiers permission to mutilate the dead bodies…

You say that the Arabian press is controlled by the government, ok, who told you that,
The answer is the Israeli or American media …

Sure you watch the Israeli media,
Ok, I saw in television Israeli soldiers kill a Palestinian and draft its dead body on the land for 6 km, is that a false media too???

Ok, didn't you see the kid "Mohammed Eldora" which was killed between his father's armies in a very sadness scene?

What was your feeling when you saw this pic, were you sad for the blameless boy!!!
Sure not

That's if you know Eldora?

Second,
The Palestinians which sacrifice their lives are "sacrificial victims" not a "suicide bombers"
There's a difference, by the way …
Let me see you the opinion of Islam in the suicide process
Those who commit suicide have disbelieved Allah's grace to people and they lost their current world and the other world, and they have infidel with Islam, then they will be punished in the fire that Allah promise to the infidels ….

So if one of those has killed him self to get rid of the world, then they're infidels …

But the main condition for sacrificial processes to win the paradise is to sacrifice your self to one of those …
1- defend Islam
2- defend his life against iniquitous people
3- defend his family
4- defend his land and his dignity

Say to those who write these articles, you don't know Islam and Muslims,
And don’t take the opinion blindly.

They kill your children, you kill your children, and you're stronger in weapons and force
But we're stronger by our will and intension…
And the stronger will stand to achieve his principle…

By the way, Sharon will stand in the count in a very shameful scene for the Israelis, because he's a war criminal, and he did many massacres against poor Lebanon's...

How can you defend that?

For your point
Yeah, Israeli has bought some lands
But did it but all the land?
Did it buy Jerusalem? Did it buy the Aqsa mosque?

Did it buy Sinai; did it buy the south of Lebanon?
Did it buy the Syrian lands; did it buy the entire world?!!!

Yeah, you're cheating the world, that's clear,
The Jewish lobbies control the American media; you give an image of Palestinians they're terrorists
But you're the innocent lambs that do nothing,

You're the victim and Palestinians are the killers,

You want to live!

Although Palestinians can't even breathe,

Isn't that cheating >??!

Finally, I would like first to refresh your mind

Once a settlement resident broke down a mosque and killed more than 20 people, they were praying
They were killed without even resistance …

That's the life; those who killed the people in Pakistan are not Muslims
Many people wear the titles of Islam but they don't even know Islam…

If you want to read about Islam, you'll find many books, but the too little books in Israel will say the truth
If you only read about the scientific miracles in Islam you'll know how great Islam is …

Note: the qur'an In USA copy has vanished, coz all people there want to read about Islam

The resulting "more than 24000 of Americans have chose Islam to be their religion"

Peace be upon you ….

victot

02-27-2002, 11:12 AM

right defender,

are you palestinian, may i ask? im just curious.

please, believe me when i say israel does want peace...

and also, believe me when i say the hearts of most israelis are good... and they have a tremendous will as well... judaism has been around for twice as long as islam...

and i think if you're going to support the idea of palestinians who blow themselves up to kill israeli children, how can you then call a foul to what the israeli army is doing?

NewsGuy

02-27-2002, 12:46 PM

Defender,

"They were killed by Israeli army, whatever the reasons…
The right doesn't give Israeli soldiers permission to mutilate the dead bodies…"

First of all, it's not "whatever the reason." The reasons are very important. What led to his death? Was he a suicide murderer? Did he mass murder Israeli children and then was killed by the IDF?

How he and his body is treated matters very much on the circumstrances of this death.

Secondly, I'm not sure if you are aware of what an autopsy is. To me, it looks like an autopsy was performed, which is required in most countries, including the US, for any person who dies other than from a medical complication.

An autopsy is not mutilation. And what we're seeing in the pictures is an autopsy.

But I wonder how his arm was blown off. I wonder of he blew himself up to mass murder inocent Israeli at a mall or pizza shop or something like that.

"You say that the Arabian press is controlled by the government, ok, who told you that,
The answer is the Israeli or American media …"

Yes, I do say that, because it is exactly right. There is no freedom of expression of or the press in the corrupt Arab dictatorships. If the government does not like something in the press, that newspaper is shut down immediately and the journalists or either imprisoned and tortured, or just killed right away.

And, in most cases, the newspaper is owned by the dictatorship altogether. Like Al Ahram, Akhbar el Youm, al Wafd, al Thawra, al Baath daily, etc. The list goes on and on. All corrupt Arab government publications one by one.

Do you actually deny this?

"Ok, I saw in television Israeli soldiers kill a Palestinian and draft its dead body on the land for 6 km, is that a false media too???"

I don't know. I have never seen or heard of such a thing. Are you sure this was not some anti-semitic Arab invention?

"Ok, didn't you see the kid "Mohammed Eldora" which was killed between his father's armies in a very sadness scene?"

Yes, I saw that. I am very saddened to see Palestinians start shooting when their own children are around. This is one of the main causes for Palestinian children being killed. They are used as human shields and the terrorists don't care about whether there are children caught in the crossfire.

"hat was your feeling when you saw this pic, were you sad for the blameless boy!!!
Sure not"

No like I said, I was saddened to see the Palestinian not caring for the lives of their children and causing their childrens' death needlessly. It is really a shame.

"Second,
The Palestinians which sacrifice their lives are "sacrificial victims" not a "suicide bombers" "

OK, you say that the suicide bombers are victims and they are justified in the name of Allah. I understand that this is the Muslim religion.

But this is the reason that the civilized world must eliminate Islamic terrorism with all its might, before the "sacrificial victims" mass murder the entire world.

With all due respoect, you really should ask yourself how do you live with this kind of murder on your conscience.

"you're stronger in weapons and force
But we're stronger by our will and intension…
And the stronger will stand to achieve his principle…"

I can guarantee to you that Israel will not be broken by Arab terrorism. Every time a palestinian mass murderer kills Israelis at a mall or at a bus stop, Israelis clean up the scene within a few hours and then go back to those places the very next day.

These acts of terrorism will not destroy Israel, that's for sure. But they will cause tremendous poverty and suffering for the Palestinians for no reason at all, when there were political negotiations available.

takeo

02-27-2002, 08:18 PM

As i said i think murdering innocent people is wrong whatever their nationality is or whatever the war is like, even killing civilian Germans during WWII was wrong. I think the reasoning behind it is that by hurting Israel in its heart this will force the Israeli to withdraw. But in fact it is not only morally unacceptable, it is as well useless, because it will give the impression that Palestinians want to kill all jews.
On the contrary i find it much harder to condamn the killing of soldiers fighting in the occupied territories, not only is this legitimised by international law (no terrorism), but it is highly effective to destroy the will of those who think they can steal land from their neighbours and take whole populations hostage.
those soldiers came to gaza and Westbank with the purpose to destroy and murder any resistance against israeli occupation, or even destroying civilian buildings or murdering civilian people, which makes them a legitimate target. And heavy military losses (in the occupied territories only) will create resistance against this project started in 1967, as people don't see why israel has to keep this shitty land which gives them nothing but misery (in their eyes) and give their lifes for those extremist settlers.

Right defender

03-01-2002, 04:28 AM

hey people ...

i think sacrificing your life to defend your land is a great work ,,,

and that's a great lesson to the entire world

none o the the western people can do that ,,,
they don't have the complete faith to do that

the sacrficial person pays his life to restore his land

that's clear

a that's a greatwork
a he's a martyr..

the israeli soldiers who was killed in 1973 are geat in the eyes of israelis

the same,,

note: sacrificial process appeared in this age only

coz palestinians don't have weopons or army to war ...

israel will be eliminated
and this is the normal end of occupation

no occupation lives

.........
peace be upon you

victot

03-01-2002, 06:05 AM

if israel cared a tenth as much about killing the palestinians as the palestinians right wing care about killing israelis, the palestinians would be dead.

if there's an attitude in the arab world that only killing innocent jews in israeli will win you what you want, that's unfortunate.
there should be more of a desire to live to solve your problems then to die to solve your problems.
I THINK BARAK SHOWED THAT ISRAEL WAS WILLING TO GIVE PALESTINIANS THE LAND AND FREEDOM FOR PEACE.
There was no need for this intifada. you think someone sacrificing themselves for martyrdom is great work... in this case it isnt.

i think the concpet of palestinians blowing themselves up to kill israelis... is... so... useless...foolish...misguided...unfortunate...awfu l...

if palestinians ever do get whatever it is that they want... are they going to talk about with prode and honour how with mere bombs, they were able to go into pizzarias and kill the innocent children of their enemies?

takeo

03-01-2002, 10:03 AM

I think right defender is or a follower of Hamas
or Lomplighter trying to fool us.
I doubt very much the good will of the Israeli side (even Barak) to leave all the occupied territories voluntarily and give equal rights to the palestinians, even without terrorism or war, but of course the palestinian extremists have not contributed to solve the problem with their repulsive methods against innocent people and by their lack of realism or recognise that Israel exists and will not go away (as in the occupied territories it is their life and houses concerned so they will fight untill death to keep Israel as the palestinians will fight untill death to keep the Gaza, eastern jerusalem and Westbank). Of course recognising israel doesn't mean that the people who lived there can't come back, but than they have to live in Israel and not in Palestine. if they don't want to live under Jewish rule they should go to the Westbank or Gaza or stay where they are.
Every moderate and intelligent person, on both sides, knows that the occupied territories belong to the palestinians, and the extremists will loose sooner or later (according to a latest poll in israel 52 % of israeli have lost faith in Sharon and want peace with the palestinians). every moderate and intelligent person, on both sides, know that Israel will not go away from the region and will stay there forever, also most palestinians (more than half) have recognised this. so the sooner the extremists disappear on both sides, the better.

NewsGuy

03-01-2002, 01:47 PM

Right defender,

"hey people ...
i think sacrificing your life to defend your land is a great work ,,,
and that's a great lesson to the entire world"

Yes, it is a lesson alright that when it comes to suicide bomber situations, then there is no use in talking peace and negotiating and being pressured by the world not to defend oneself, but rather a military solution is needed until all suicide bombers, their trainers and their infrastructure is 100% demolished. Only then can there be a chance for peace.

"none o the the western people can do that ,,,
they don't have the complete faith to do that "

Of course there are individuals in Western society who commit murder and then run towards the police with their guns drawn, knowing that they will kill and be killed, just like the suicide bombers know that scenario.

In our Western society these people are known as deranged criminals. In Islamic society, they are model citizens. ok, this is nothing to be proud of.

And what has any suicide bomber ever accomplished for his "country" as you say, Mr. Defender? Please name even one single accomlishment that has even been achieved by them.

The only time that Arabs got land was only as a result of peace negotiations, and never once through violence and murder.

All that has been achieved by suicide bombings is more misery for the Muslim world and more death of their own people.

For example, look what the mighty Islamic suicide bombers achieved for Afghanistan, and what the suicide bombers achieved in the West bank and Gaza just today. Dozens of Palestinian refugee homes destroyed, more than a hundred wounded, 18 dead, and much more to come of the same.

And how much land was received by the Palestinians as reward for the suicide bombings? Not an inch.

And actually, while the terrorists delay the peace process, more potential Palestinian land is being turned into Israeli settlements.

You have no one but yourself and your shaheed suicide bombers to blame for your people's misery.

"the israeli soldiers who was killed in 1973 are geat in the eyes of israelis "

No, the Israelis don't see their war dead as martyrs. They see them as victims of Arab aggression, who had no choice but to be drafted into army service and were lost to their families forever.

Their conclusion is that peace is the answer, and you don't see them going into Arab shopping malls to blow themselves up in the middle of a crowd of children.

cerulean

03-01-2002, 01:49 PM

Unlike the families of suicide bombers, Israeli families do not take out newspaper notices proclaiming the "marriage" of their martyred sons to the 72 black-eyed houris. That is one immediate difference.

Not Beilin

03-01-2002, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by NewsGuy
And how much land was received by the Palestinians as reward for the suicide bombings? Not an inch.

Just a a bunch of burial plots 6 feet under.

takeo

03-01-2002, 05:30 PM

"And actually, while the terrorists delay the peace process, more potential Palestinian land is being turned into Israeli settlements.

You have no one but yourself and your shaheed suicide bombers to blame for your people's misery. "

hey newsguy that's a contradiction in terminis...
they are two sides to blaim: the ones building illegal settlements and the ones blowing up themselves in pizzeria's, both are not exactly committed to peace and are an obstacle to peace. BOTH

NewsGuy

03-01-2002, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by takeo
they are two sides to blaim: the ones building illegal settlements and the ones blowing up themselves in pizzeria's, both are not exactly committed to peace and are an obstacle to peace. BOTH

Hi Takeo,

I don't think that the settlers are to blame. I believe that it is the right of any Jew to live in the Jewish homeland, which clearly includes the West Bank and perhaps Gaza also.

But, in practicality, if the Arabs would stop their mass murder of innocent Jews, then a peace agreement would be reached, resulting in a second Palestinian state, and Jews would be precluded from building new homes (because in the new Palestinian state there would be an official policy of genocide against any Jewish residents who refuse to be expelled).

So the longer the Palestinian terrorism goes on, the longer the settlers will keep on building homes and expanding their cities. Eventually the settler population could grow to such a proportion that it will not be possible to include those areas in the second Palestinian state.

Anyway, this brings me to start a new thread soon about a subject that has been puzzling to me regarding how the "civilized" world is helping to create an openly racist Palestinian state that will not allow Jews to live their solely on the basis on religious discrimination.

L@mplighterM

03-01-2002, 09:44 PM

You Arabs posters have the weirdest way of looking at life. I think you could look at a white wall and argue it?s black. I?m happy we?re not neighbors because something would have to give.

If civilians chose to live next door to an ammunitions factory and it gets bombed and they end up getting killed in the fallout it?s not an intentional act. Israel and the rest of the civilized world do not target civilians. Haim ata medaber anglit? Ty govorish po-angliski? Talar du engelska? Englizibza wegoshaano washeaa? Hal tatakalam al-inglizia? Hal tatakalam inglizi? Taler du engelsk? Do you speak English?

Because you sure can?t read English or you wouldn?t come up with all your historical nonsense.
Targeting civilians is an Arab specialty and in our culture individuals are dealt with severely if they do indeed maliciously attack civilians.

Even if one Arab/Muslim corpse was dragged through the streets it wouldn?t even begin to even the score.

takeo

03-01-2002, 11:58 PM

I don't think it's the right of settlers to live there, because this is not a part of Israel and an occupying state doesn't have the right to implant its own population in there. If they want to live there they should ask the permission of the people living there, which are the Palestinians. They clearly don't come as peaceful neighbours and most come with the mentality that they own the whole place and palestinians need to move from their own home. Their extremism is not even matched by some extremist people posting on this site. If some French would come to the US, only abiding to French laws, don't ask permition to the us-government to live there, don't pay taxes, and taking property from neighbouring Americans, I'm sure it would (besides confirm the prejudices against the arrogant french in the US) provoke anger and violence. Why should Jews be able to live whereever they want if palestinians aren't even able to return to their own houses? Yes indeed lomplighter this is so obvious as a white wall but still some people that this white wall is actually black in their eyes.
and about historical nonsense: i am glad you say this, historical nonsense is basing a policy on what happened 2000 years ago. I think wanting to live in a land your ancestors possibly inhabitated 2000 years ago and where still some religious monuments are preserved is MORE historical nonsense than wanting your house and property back taken from you 50 years ago...

"So the longer the Palestinian terrorism goes on, the longer the settlers will keep on building homes and expanding their cities. Eventually the settler population could grow to such a proportion that it will not be possible to include those areas in the second Palestinian state. "

What is this kind of arguing? So because the terrorism goes on Israel should continue building more settlemnts to make them irreplacable? you may not understand that as long as the policy of settlement and colonisation goes on terrorism will go on and peace will be impossible because palestinians will not accept those foreigners taking their best soils without any laws(or in fact the laws of the occupier, which are illegal laws). there is always an egg for every chicken... and the egg for the chicken called terrorism is called colonisation and occupation. Not so difficult to understand i think.

"Anyway, this brings me to start a new thread soon about a subject that has been puzzling to me regarding how the "civilized" world is helping to create an openly racist Palestinian state that will not allow Jews to live their solely on the basis on religious discrimination."

LOL. You are the one defending the israeli decision not to allow back people who had their house and property because they belong to the "wrong" religion and etnic group. So according to you a country that doesn't allow people from everywhere in the world to establish themselves in their country(but only people who can proove they or their family lived there) is a racist and discriminating country?

takeo

03-02-2002, 12:05 AM

"Targeting civilians is an Arab specialty and in our culture individuals are dealt with severely if they do indeed maliciously attack civilians. "

yea, they are elected for president.
Anyway i think Jewish people have indeed a higher standard than Arab people IN GENERAL, but the current Israeli policy is not very flattering for the Jewish people either unfortunately.

takeo

03-02-2002, 12:07 AM

prime minister

L@mplighterM

03-02-2002, 08:25 AM

What if this or what if that ?if if if if if if if if if if if if? . This is not a question of if. As far as I?m concerned the bible gives a historical account of what the area was like a couple/+ thousand years ago.

The frogs gave up their claim to N. America as war reparations to the British.

I have no historical evidence that the Jews gave up their land. I?m certain that since the beginning of written history to the present Jews have lived in the area. As far as I?m concerned that would/should stand up in any court as proof of ownership.

Are you going to tell me that your Muslim brothers don?t have enough land? You guys are just sour grapes and lousy fighters. Go home milk your goats, ride your camels and call it a day. Leave Israel alone!

NewsGuy

03-02-2002, 10:48 AM

"They clearly don't come as peaceful neighbours and most come with the mentality that they own the whole place and palestinians need to move from their own home."

"Clearly"? What do you mean by that? They arrive with their families, build beautiful communities, send their children to school, etc. What's not peaceful about that?

So far as their belief that they own the whole place, it is true. These are Jewish lands, and the Arabs do need to go back to their 23 other Arab states if the Arabs cannot coexist peacefully with their neighbors. (which they have proven all over the world that they are incapable of such a thing).

" If some French would come to the US, only abiding to French laws, don't ask permition to the us-government to live there, don't pay taxes, and taking property from neighbouring Americans, I'm sure it would (besides confirm the prejudices against the arrogant french in the US) provoke anger and violence. Why should Jews be able to live whereever they want if palestinians aren't even able to return to their own houses? "

Well, the main difference between Jews and Arabs is that Arabs and other Muslims have a nasty habit of mass murderting their non-Muslim neighbors all over the world.

Also, after the Arabs attempted genocide against the Jews in 1948, then there is little wonder that they are not allowed to return back to live among the same people they tried to mass murder.

The comparison with French living in the US is completely irrelevant to the Mideast situation. In the US there is a government and an immigrations system and a set of laws. Not so for the Palestinians, because they rejected international law and instead of living peacefully in 1948 under the UN resolutions, they decided to try genocide against the Jews. So they never had a country, nor laws, nor any authority over the land in dispute.

"you may not understand that as long as the policy of settlement and colonisation goes on terrorism will go on and peace will be impossible..."

What I do understand perfectly is that Arab terrorism against the Jews happened way before there were any settlements at all, and so it is not the settlements that are the cause of Arab terrorism. It is the Palestinian culture fueled by poverty, illiteracy, overpopulation and Islamic extremism that encourages mass murder that is the problem.

alexbmn

03-02-2002, 10:52 AM

Victor and Newsguy: I think Right defender's convictions should put to rest your fears about his origional post being truthfull.Palestinian news is full of "valid" news of Jews slaugtering children sucking their blood poisoning wells with chemical weapons using Pokemon as a Zionist plot and even undermining the verility of Arab men.

NewsGuy

03-02-2002, 01:10 PM

hey alexbmn, good to see you around again.

takeo

03-02-2002, 04:05 PM

""Clearly"? What do you mean by that? They arrive with their families, build beautiful communities, send their children to school, etc. What's not peaceful about that? "

i mean building beatiful houses on the bulldozered homes of other people who were forced to move is not exactly peacefull.

"So far as their belief that they own the whole place, it is true. These are Jewish lands, and the Arabs do need to go back to their 23 other Arab states if the Arabs cannot coexist peacefully with their neighbors. (which they have proven all over the world that they are incapable of such a thing). "

Lomplighter and newsguy, finding evidence that Jewish people lived there 2000 years ago is nice, but no single court will accept this as enough reason to etnic cleansing of the current owner. I think this is just evidence and shows that for you the occupation is looked upon as something historical and "our right", not a protection against terrorism as you always mention. In fact if there wouldn't be terrorism or international pressure you would be even less prepared to give those territories back to the Palestinians.

"Well, the main difference between Jews and Arabs is that Arabs and other Muslims have a nasty habit of mass murderting their non-Muslim neighbors all over the world. "

well, so far more Palestinians have been mass-murdered by israeli than vice versa...and Israeli even murdered their own president.

"Also, after the Arabs attempted genocide against the Jews in 1948, then there is little wonder that they are not allowed to return back to live among the same people they tried to mass murder. "

War isn't genocide, "attempted genocide" you call it, who knows ? Anyway "etnic cleansing, not attempted but succeeded" is real. Common people can never be victimised for the decisions of their leaders, exactly for the same reason i am strongly opposed against murdering innocent Israeli.

"The comparison with French living in the US is completely irrelevant to the Mideast situation. In the US there is a government and an immigrations system and a set of laws. Not so for the Palestinians, because they rejected international law and instead of living peacefully in 1948 under the UN resolutions, they decided to try genocide against the Jews. So they never had a country, nor laws, nor any authority over the land in dispute. "

Yes, true, but in Israel there isn't any legitimacy because Israel, instead of living peacefully after the palestinians were defeated, choose to ignore all UN-resolutions and reject international legislation that didn't suit them. Israel is only a country because it is recognised by the UN, Palestine is not considered a part of Israel so it hasn't the right to implant settlements, and it doesn't have any autority to take whatever decision in the Gaza or westbank. All decisions taken since 1967 are illegal according to international justice and will be reversed, by negociating or by violence. the UN considers the Palestinians to be the rightfull owners of Gaza westbank and Eastern Jerusalem and all decisions taken by the occupiers will be reversed (as happened in Northern France and the benelux after WWII).

"What I do understand perfectly is that Arab terrorism against the Jews happened way before there were any settlements at all, and so it is not the settlements that are the cause of Arab terrorism. It is the Palestinian culture fueled by poverty, illiteracy, overpopulation and Islamic extremism that encourages mass murder that is the problem."

No, the cause of Arab terrorism is resistance against the colonisation. But the more colonisation the more terrorism. In the 50's and 60's terrorism in Israel was weak, but after the occupation-war in 1967 terrorism mulitplied. only a just solution for all will make an end to violence, as happened in many other parts of the world. But israel's mentality of "everything for us, nothing for the Palestinians" makes any solution very hard.
And yes there are many arab countries, but the US is big too, so if the gypsies want an own country they can just take texas, and those texans can go to other parts of the "big mother****er US"??? I don't think W would fancy that idea.

L@mplighterM

03-02-2002, 04:30 PM

Actually I think it could easily be argued that the EU community supports terrorism in an indirect way. I can?t recall the figures but a lot of Euros ends up in the hands of the Palestinian (lack of) leadership.
That could be seen as a reward for terrorism. In other words they shouldn?t be given dick when they engage in or support terrorist activities.

alexbmn

03-02-2002, 05:17 PM

Newsguy I'm surprised that you take you repeatedly take your time to answer Takeo. According to him Israel is 100% wrong on all accounts and nothing you say will change his convictions. I originally sought out this forum to discuss the situation with people who share my view and not to have pointless arguments with those people whose views run parallel to mine.

L@mplighterM

03-02-2002, 05:20 PM

Sometimes it's good to know what the other side thinks. It can help you make your stand/defence.

victot

03-02-2002, 08:34 PM

hey, i got this from yahoo editorials...
though my 2 cents is that the israeli settlements should leave the west bank, and the palestinian refugess should not come back to live in israel...

False moral equivalency
By Seth Mandell

(June 29) - My 13-year-old son, Koby Mandell, and his friend Yosef Ish-Ran were brutally murdered, bludgeoned to death with bowling ball-sized rocks six weeks ago. The perpetrators, not yet apprehended, are assumed to be Palestinians who happened upon my son and his friend - vulnerable, easy targets - as they were hiking in a canyon about a kilometer from our home.
Because we considered the murder a personal family tragedy we asked the media to respect our privacy during the shiva. Not only did I not speak to reporters, I read no papers, listened to no television or radio. When I did finally begin to read the coverage, I was dismayed to find that many American papers juxtaposed pictures of Koby and his friend Yosef with pictures of a Palestinian infant from Gaza who had been badly injured when her home was hit by an Israeli rocket.
Discerning readers and media observers should be aware that the two tragedies are not morally equivalent. In almost every instance of noncombatants killed by the Israeli army, the injury resulted from an Israeli defensive reaction to an attack by trained Palestinian fighters using the victim's civilian home for cover. The baby's injury was a mistake for which Prime Minister Ariel Sharon expressed regret.
Koby and Yosef, on the other hand, were killed in cold blood by terrorists who have been encouraged to kill as brutally as possible.
What happened to Koby and Yosef was a hate crime. It could have happened anywhere in Israel. The frenzied hatred it expressed was nurtured and cultivated by the Palestinian Authority's official media and educational system.
Not one Palestinian leader or civilian wrote, called, or expressed any kind of regret.
While it is true that Palestinian boys my son's age are sometimes shot by Israeli defense forces, they are hurt by soldiers responding to rock throwing or other attacks so intense that the soldiers feel that their lives are threatened.
Don't think rocks can kill? Ask Yehuda, the five-month-old baby whose head was smashed in by a rock during the drive home from his grandparents house.
Don't think a mob of Palestinians is life threatening? Ask the two reserve soldiers beaten to death during the lynching in Ramallah a few months ago.
A glaring example of false moral equivalency. Thomas Friedman in his New York Times column on June 19 writes: "What Israeli settlers and Palestinian suicide bombers have in common is that they are each pushing for the maximum use of force against the other side."
To equate the two is to create moral mush. The rhetoric and actions of the suicide bombers and the Palestinian leadership is a "push" for wholesale and indiscriminate slaughter of Israeli Jews wherever and whenever they are to be found. The so-called settlers "push" is for defensive action against armed militants who threaten the roads, the homes, and the lives of many Israelis, both inside and outside of the territories.
There are no settlers calling on Jews to kill Palestinians wherever they find them, as did a clergyman on Palestinian national television recently.
Israeli TV does not run advertisements urging children to martyr themselves for the Palestinian cause, as does the official Palestinian Authority television station. While settlers and the rest of the Israeli population do allow their children to serve in the army to defend the citizens of their country, they do not strap explosives to their sons' bodies and send them into crowds of high schoolers to kill and maim.
Let's be clear: Building a home on disputed territory is not the moral equivalent of stoning young people to death. In an effort to maintain a balance, journalists sometimes erroneously equate the two, thus avoiding the discomfort that comes from assigning clear condemnation and culpability. Yet it is the job of all civilized countries - and people - to judge clearly and critically the murderers and terrorists who wreak havoc on our lives and in our societies.
(The writer is a rabbi who lives in Tekoa.)

Right defender

03-03-2002, 05:41 AM

hey people here

i said my thoughts ....

occupation is the worst terrorism in the hisroty

i say no occupation lives

and days will prove my opinion

like history which proved that

i always wonder ,,

was the israeli occupation to sinai and lebanon and syria and jordon and of cousrse palestine an aran agrression !!!
how come ???

if you want to stop these great processes

you have the decision ,,,

withdraw from our occupied land

that clear ,,,
-----------
news guys

don't talk about democracy in israel even a word

i wrote here a theme about the miracles in koran

the same day afternoon

the theme was deleted ??

you proved that no democracy in israel ,,,

thanx too much for your obvious facts

peace be upon alll

NewsGuy

03-03-2002, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by alexbmn
According to him Israel is 100% wrong on all accounts and nothing you say will change his convictions. I originally sought out this forum to discuss the situation with people who share my view and not to have pointless arguments with those people whose views run parallel to mine.

Alexbmn,

I hear you.

For me, it's not really a matter of changing anyone's convictions, just like it's unlikely that mine would be changed.

takeo's views are basically not only the views of many Arabs, but also the views of many extreme leftists in Israeli society itself. Amazingly, I have come to think that takeo, like the Israeli extreme leftists, also wants peace in Israel but this belief is based on some assumptions that I persoanlly consider to be naiive and annoying.

That's ok, becuase to him and to many Israeli leftists, my own assumptions (and those of centrist and right-wing Israelis) are a roadblock to peace, and cause needless bloodshed in their own view.

So, actually, after getting past my initial contempt for his views, I've come to see his opinions in a different light. And, while I still disagree with his parroting of Arab and Leftist Israeli propaganda and disinformation, my own approach is to focus on the issues, not the personalities. And it's those issues that bring me here.

I'd also point out that takeo, by posting hundreds of messages in this forum has demonstarted that he wants to be part of an Israel and Jewish-oriented community, even as an opposition voice. That says something.

Anyway, I don't mean to speak for him, I'm just saying how I perceive him. But I can say that of the thousands of people reading the messages on this forum, I'll bet that many of them agree with takeo's views and it's important in some way to let them know that there is another POV, like mine and many others' here, and maybe yours too.

So, if you are interested in discussing the issues with like-minded people, we are here to discuss. As you can see there are several active members here who would be in that category and we welcome you to add your voice to ours.

But the debate with people who disagree with us, also has value to the thousands of readers who are interested in knowing both points of view.

Bottom line: Please don't be put off. Discuss the issues that interest you. Plenty of people want to know what you think.

NewsGuy

03-03-2002, 01:26 PM

Right defender,

"occupation is the worst terrorism in the hisroty"

Well, I've notice the new Arab PR strategy of labeling anything they don't agree with as "terrorism."

According to the latest Arab propaganda, anything the Arabs perceive as occupation is terrorism, there is economic terrorism, there is cultural terrorism, and maybe there is even body-odor terrorism - who knows what they will think up next... :rolleyes:

But all these new terrorism accusations are just to divert the world's anger away from the true source of terrorism, which is the Arab and Islamic terrorism that is the intentional mass murder of innocent civilians, like in the US, Israel, Afghanistan, Philippines, and even other Arab countries.

Sure, occupation is wrong and will eventually end. But in Israel's case, it is not occupation at all, because I've never seen an "occupier" try to conduct peace agreements and hand over land for an independent state.

Israel's closing off the Palestinian terrorist breeding grounds and suicide bomb factories is a police action for self-defense, not occupation. The proof is that when Ariel Sharon moved Israeli tanks out of those areas, terrorism increased, and so the tanks were returned.

Like I wrote in another thread in this forum, in a sense it's like putting serial killers and mass murderers in Jail. They cannot complain of occupation, because they are criminals who must be separated from civilized society.

"i always wonder ,,

was the israeli occupation to sinai and lebanon and syria and jordon and of cousrse palestine an aran agrression !!!
how come ???"

Yes, of course it was all as a direct result of Arab aggression. IN 1948, Israel accpeted the UN partition of Israel.

But since then Arab aggression and desire to commit genocide against the Jews in Israel, has caused several wars, which the Arabs lost, so land was captured during those wars.

"you have the decision ,,,
withdraw from our occupied land
that clear ,,,"

Well, I think that to you, that would entail Israel moving into the sea, no?

"news guys
don't talk about democracy in israel even a word
i wrote here a theme about the miracles in koran
the same day afternoon
the theme was deleted ??"

Maybe the thread disappearance was an example of one of those "miracles"? :)

Actually, like I wrote before and as others have pointed out, it was moved to the "General Discussions" area of this forum, and it did was not deleted at all.

Here it is:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=2230#post2230