Is Zionism based on religion anyway?

[NewsGuy]

This thread was inspired by takeo and I wanted to give credit where credit is due.

Originally posted by takeo
If its all about religion, than i don't understand zionism. Because first zionists were not religious at all! and if it weren't Palestine they would consider Uganda as their homecountry (what the ugandans thought of this is another matter). in fact i think a state for a religion is stupid, for sure in the 21-th century, and for sure because most Israeli aren't even religious!

Any takers?

[takeo]

well i can't make any contribution as i don't have a clue myself, anyone? If you really believe in zionism it seems to me you should know this :confused:
just this: today israel isn't a religious state and the idea of christian or muslim state uniting all christians or muslims has always failed as people with the same religion don't necessarily share the same culture as well (look at the early pakistan and bangladesh experiment). And zionists didn't see Israel as the wholy land, that's for sure.

[NewsGuy]

Zionism is based on the belief that Jews should be entitled to live in the Jewish homeland of Israel.

It does not require that these Jews be observant necessarily. I think you're confusing "religious" with "observant", and so you are confused.

[takeo]

well, someone who isn't observant or even calls himself an atheist or at least does't believe in god, how can he or she be religious?

[takeo]

And can such a person immigrate to a country for Jewish people? (if his mother is Jewish)
I know he can, but it doesn't correspond to your theory

[NewsGuy]

This might be very difficult for you to understand, so I will try to simplify it as best I can:

There are Jews who are non-observant. (Just like there are Catholics who don't go to mass every Sunday). Maybe this example will lead you to understand the issues better.

Again, Zionism is based on the belief that Jews should be entitled to live in the Jewish homeland of Israel, and doesn't deal with the level of each Jew's observance.

I think the real issue that you are talking about is more is "Who is a Jew" for the purposes of the Israeli Law of Return.

[cerulean]

Could someone clarify the Law of Return, who qualifies for Israeli citizenship, and the impact of the recent High Court ruling on Reform and Conservative converts? I am pretty sure I understand these, but want to be sure.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by cerulean
Could someone clarify the Law of Return, who qualifies for Israeli citizenship, and the impact of the recent High Court ruling on Reform and Conservative converts? I am pretty sure I understand these, but want to be sure.

Here's my attempt:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?threadid=273&goto=newpost

[victot]

hey.
my father is not jewish, though my mother is, making me jewish.
i'm certainly not religious, i don't even know if i believe in g-d... it's one of my projects in life, to look at the universe and people, and to see if i think g-d exists, and if g-d does exist, are any of the religions here on earth correct? so far, i'm really undecided, though i think if i were about to die, i'd be praying like mad...

that being said, i do feel a connection to israel...
i know that on my mother's side, her parents, their parents, their parents... all suffered through persecution and hardships, to preserve their judaism...
the thing about dispora, is that in every country, jews had to face a lot of hardships to maintain their being jewish. the belief in g-d, the morals of the bible, the respect for custom... these ideals/beliefs meant enough to them to suffer through the persecutions of being this strange people with strange beliefs in a foreign land, who "killed christ" who "rejected mohammad" and what not...
i feel i owe it to my forefathers to preserve this relgion and lineage which they sacrificed so much to preserve.
the land of israel, and the city of jerusalem is so deeply rooted in judaism...
with the pride of belonging to a people who have survived so long, and has been through so much...
i believe in zionism - the path that respects my ancestors, and unites my people. us non-religous jews can be passionate about zionism too.

[cerulean]

.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by victot
i believe in zionism - the path that respects my ancestors, and unites my people. us non-religous jews can be passionate about zionism too.

wow, victot. Very powerful stuff and well stated.

Right there with you.

[eitan]

Do the jews in israel have an idea as to what it means to be a jew? do they care? what do you think? :confused:

[Flame]

Regardless of what any individual Jew believes... we all share one thing, unfortunatley... the vunerability of the unrelenting hate that the "goyim" have for us and their desires to see us wiped off the face of the earth.

[watcher]

Wasn't there some past propaganda to give zionism an extremely negative connotation? Something called elders of zion or something like that to portray Jews as wicked people? I know there's a lot of hateful garbage out there to try to cover the truth but Isn't there something like that out there that twists Zionism into something evil? Sure those who know the truth can see past the lies but I'm concerned those who don't know better may get confused and more hateful. Then again it's not up to us to delve into their propaganda but to continue to dismiss them and rest in the knowledge that Truth can never be covered, that lies have no power against those who seek the Truth and Loves what is Right.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by watcher
Wasn't there some past propaganda to give zionism an extremely negative connotation? Something called elders of zion or something like that to portray Jews as wicked people? I know there's a lot of hateful garbage out there to try to cover the truth but Isn't there something like that out there that twists Zionism into something evil?

Yes, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. This pamphlet was published in the early 1900s, and one would have thought it would have run its course by now, but no, it hasn't. In fact, it was recently made into a television mini-series in Saudi Arabia. It's interesting that Islamic sites are using European anti-Semitic propaganda (e.g. Martin Luther's screed from the early 1500s, and probably others - but I have not fully examined this). Arab newspapers and web sites are also repeating the medieval blood libel stories. Of course, the stuff is still being distributed in the US and Europe and probably elsewhere too.


Sure those who know the truth can see past the lies but I'm concerned those who don't know better may get confused and more hateful. Then again it's not up to us to delve into their propaganda but to continue to dismiss them and rest in the knowledge that Truth can never be covered, that lies have no power against those who seek the Truth and Loves what is Right.

I surely hope you are right!

[ibrodsky]

I think Zionism is nothing more nor less than Jewish nationalism. Remember, in the early days of the Zionist movement they considered Uganda as a possible homeland.

So I don't think it's quite true that Zionism required the ancient land of Israel... though it was the naturally preferred choice.

There were already Jews living there. There were Jewish historic and holy sites. And the fact is that though most of the inhabitants were Arabs at the time, the Arabs had little attachment to the land and had no visible national movement of their own. (Palestinian nationalism didn't emerge until post-1967, and it is hardly 100% sincere.)

In any event, now Israel is the Jewish state, and it's too late for Israel's opponents to demand that Jews find an alternative.

But the real issue today isn't Zionism. It's militant Islam. Jews have been trying to live in peace with Arabs for 50+ years. Israel has sought peace while many Arab countries and Islamic groups remain absolutely opposed to peace with Israel. Israel would love to cooperate with its neighbors, and help them build modern economies. But they don't want modern economies. What many of them want, unfortunately, is world conquest by Islam.

[mbczion]

Zionism in it's original form is very much "religious" in nature....

Three times a day in the Amida we pray for the return of all the Jews from the four corners of the earth to the land of Zion - Eretz Yisrael....

When we recite the Shema in Shacharit (morning) services, we gather the four tzitzit on our tallit as a sign that we are yearning for Jews to be gathered from the four corners of the earth back to Zion - Eretz Yisrael....

When we bench Birkat HaMazon after meals, we pray for the return to Eretz Yisrael and rebuilding of Yerushalayim....

Ramban said that when we observe the mitzvot outside of Eretz Yisrael we are only practicing the mitzvot for when we return to E"Y....

As you can see, "Zionism" in the truest sense of the word is very much rooted in the Jewish faith....

Now, "modern zionism" or "political zionism" which was founded by Theodore Hertzl is a different story. This movement was started as a response to anti-semitism and offered Jews a chance to take destiny into their own hands. This movement was secular in nature, although modern Orthodox Jews jumped on the bandwagon of "modern zionism" and participated in the building of Medinat Yisrael and continue to be an integral part of modern Israel to this day....

So, while "modern (or political) zionism" was founded by secular Jews and started out as a secular/political movement, it has not remained exclusively as such....

[physics]

Zionism is very simple. It's the idea that Jewish people have a right to live in an independent state.

[physics]

The conflict arises in the Law of Return, where the boundaries are blurry. The tradition of basing Jewish identity on maternal lineage is odd. Essentially, the father has no impact whatsover on a child's identity.

Consider this situation: Every child born to a Jewish mother, is automatically Jewish, even if every time the father was a goy. According to the tradition, Jewish women could have mixed with whoever they wished for generations, but their children were still Jewish.

Why can't a child be considered Jewish through father's lineage. I am simply critical of the tradition. Does a Jewish father's heritage simply become void when he mixes with a goy?

I think that the Law of Return does not allow children of Jewish fathers and Goy mothers to immigrate.

I also think that many children of Jewish-fathers Goy-mothers died in Holocaust because they were Jewish.

Isn't there a contradiction in the law?

[physics]

I am critical of the conflict between the Reform and Orthodox movement. Israel should base its immigration and recognition policies on all sectors of Judaism.

Consider this: A child of a Jewish father, goy mother can be considered Jewish by the reform movement. However, the child is not considered Jewish by Orthodox, and therefore Israel as well.

If Israel denies this reform Jew entry, then it's only Israel's loss. Israel should be glad to accept any willing Jew, whether reform or orthodox.

The orthodox domination in Israel must be altered. We live in 21st century, and Jews of other sectors should have equal rights in Israel. The orthodox may conduct their lives as they see fit, but other Jews should have their chance also.

[1.5 million]

physics a matrimonial lineage makes sense because one can never - for sure - know the lineage on the father's side - make sense?

[mbczion]

The conflict arises in the Law of Return, where the boundaries are blurry. The tradition of basing Jewish identity on maternal lineage is odd. Essentially, the father has no impact whatsover on a child's identity.

Consider this situation: Every child born to a Jewish mother, is automatically Jewish, even if every time the father was a goy. According to the tradition, Jewish women could have mixed with whoever they wished for generations, but their children were still Jewish.

Why can't a child be considered Jewish through father's lineage. I am simply critical of the tradition. Does a Jewish father's heritage simply become void when he mixes with a goy?

I think that the Law of Return does not allow children of Jewish fathers and Goy mothers to immigrate.

I also think that many children of Jewish-fathers Goy-mothers died in Holocaust because they were Jewish.

Isn't there a contradiction in the law?

The question of "Who is a Jew?" and "Who should be allowed to obtain Israeli citizenship under the 'Law of Return'?" are two different questions....

The answer to the former is clear-cut and forever- one who is born of a Jewish mother or one who converts to Judaism according to halacha....

There are several reasons for this halacha:

1) As noted by another poster, one cannot be 100% sure who the father of the child is....

2) There is a midrash that says the mother passes on the Torah to her child through her milk....

3) A child is generally more attached to the mother as she is the one who nurtures him/her when he/she is at the tender age of infanthood....

From the above reasons, as well as others that don't come to my mind at the moment, the Rabbis deduced that Jewish lineage is passed on through the mother and NOT through the father....

Now for the latter question....According to the Law of Return, anyone who has even one Jewish grandparent or who converts to Judaism (although, which kind of conversion- reform, conservative, orthodox, reconstructionist, etc. is still up in the air) can make aliyah....The basis for this is the Nuremberg Laws during the Holocaust, in which the Nazis threw anyone with even one Jewish grandparent into the concentration camps....IMO, allowing anyone with one Jewish grandparent to make aliyah made sense in certain times, but not so much anymore....I think the LOR needs to be modified a bit for anyone with one Jewish PARENT (whether father or mother) or who converts to Judaism according to halacha....Many people from the former Soviet Union have taken advantage of the ultra-liberal LOR to come to Israel just for financial reasons and are some of the biggest anti-semites of all....In the past decade, Jewish graves in Israel have been defaced with swatstikas (No, not by arabs!!!!) and kids have been threatened in school by bullies, "I'll beat you up you dirty Jew!!!!" So I believe the Law of Return needs to be tweaked a bit....If one does not fit the above criteria that I suggested for the LOR and is not in immediate danger because of his/her "Jewish lineage" in his/her respective country then he/she has no need to receive Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return....Not everyone who has one Jewish grandparent needs to be granted the privilege of making aliyah....

[physics]

I think the whole Maternal law is full of contradictions, but the situation is so complex that it's pointless to try to trace it back.

Obviously, there had to be the first proclaimed Jew. And the Jewish lineage continued based on this person.

[physics]

My problem is with the Orthodox domination in Israel. Israel should accept Jews from all sectors of Judaism, including Reform and Conservative. If the Orthodox want to keep a strict record of their family lineage, let them. Every Jew in the modern world should have equal access and recognition by Israel.

Every Jew should be eligible for Israeli citizenship and considered Jewish. If Orthodox want to distinguish between their own Jews and Reform Jews, let them. But there has to be something universal in Israel.

[physics]

I fully agree with you on letting any person with at least one Jewish parent to make Aaliyah. The grandfather clause should be eliminated in my opinion.

The main argument I am making is basically about the conflict between Orthodox and other sectors of Judaism. They disagree about Jewish identity.

[physics]

Many people from the former Soviet Union have taken advantage of the ultra-liberal LOR to come to Israel just for financial reasons and are some of the biggest anti-semites of all.

Yes, I am well aware of this. My family and I immigrated to Israel from Soviet Union. By the way, we are 100% Jewish according to Jewish law.

I truly hate those Anti-Semitic 100% goy Russians that escaped to Israel for economic reasons. They have the guts to insult Israel after they arrived! They are not even thankful!

[Robmc123]

what I've thought a few times is that Israel needs king to lead the people like the UK maybe just a figure head or maybe a true leader. Israel needs to get stronger now as the times are getting harder but now the time is to become a great helper nation spreading the thought of love and fellowship. Yes build the wall, I agree with the wall but do something to help the needy. With a king Israel would be stronger and we would all be happier, please tell me if I'm wrong?

[Mira]

what I've thought a few times is that Israel needs king to lead the people like the UK maybe just a figure head or maybe a true leader. Israel needs to get stronger now as the times are getting harder but now the time is to become a great helper nation spreading the thought of love and fellowship. Yes build the wall, I agree with the wall but do something to help the needy. With a king Israel would be stronger and we would all be happier, please tell me if I'm wrong?

Are you Christian?

[Robmc123]

Yes I am christian but I would like to know more about Jewish life today and know more about Israel and the surrounding area, can you help me or even point me in the right direction. I just want to understand what is happening over there as many of us in the UK only see the news and it is not enough information as to what is actually going on in the region.

We only hear "another bomb has gone off " and we think that is terrible but the majority, in my opinion, don't know the reasons why all this is going on. Most people are busy with their daily lives and the news is just another happening but if we, the UK people, understood what was going on then maybe something could be done.

There could be another post in this forum with the same question so if someone could put a pionter on that would be a good start.

[Ariksan]

Remember, in the early days of the Zionist movement they considered Uganda as a possible homeland.

I don't think this is an accurate assessment. It was not an idea of the Zionist Congress. The British colonial secretary offered Uganda - after setting up an investigatory commission the Seventh Zionist congress rejected the British proposal. Herzl, sometimes credited with supporting the British plan only considered it as a temporary refuge for Jews in Russia in immediate danger. He made it clear that this program would not affect the ultimate aim of Zionism, a Jewish entity in the Land of Israel.

A small group split from the Zionist Congress called the "Jewish Territorialists Organization" continued with plans for a Jewish homeland in other parts of the world but they had little support and faded away. For mainstream Zionism - socialist and revisionist - the Land of Israel was the only option with good reason.

[Mira]

Yes I am christian but I would like to know more about Jewish life today and know more about Israel and the surrounding area, can you help me or even point me in the right direction. I just want to understand what is happening over there as many of us in the UK only see the news and it is not enough information as to what is actually going on in the region.

We only hear "another bomb has gone off " and we think that is terrible but the majority, in my opinion, don't know the reasons why all this is going on. Most people are busy with their daily lives and the news is just another happening but if we, the UK people, understood what was going on then maybe something could be done.

There could be another post in this forum with the same question so if someone could put a pionter on that would be a good start.

Why if you don't know much about Israel today would you suggest that she needs a king? That's why I asked if you were a Christian, because your suggestion seems more ideological than pragmatic. If you want to know more about Israel and the surrounding areas today, the best way is to visit. It's safer than you would think if your only view is from the television and the place is filled with Christian pilgrims from all over the world.

[Yuval]

Hey.
In Hebrew we write: ציוניזם

Bey.:D