Is Zionism based on religion anyway?

[NewsGuy]

This thread was inspired by takeo and I wanted to give credit where credit is due.

Originally posted by takeo
If its all about religion, than i don't understand zionism. Because first zionists were not religious at all! and if it weren't Palestine they would consider Uganda as their homecountry (what the ugandans thought of this is another matter). in fact i think a state for a religion is stupid, for sure in the 21-th century, and for sure because most Israeli aren't even religious!

Any takers?

[takeo]

well i can't make any contribution as i don't have a clue myself, anyone? If you really believe in zionism it seems to me you should know this :confused:
just this: today israel isn't a religious state and the idea of christian or muslim state uniting all christians or muslims has always failed as people with the same religion don't necessarily share the same culture as well (look at the early pakistan and bangladesh experiment). And zionists didn't see Israel as the wholy land, that's for sure.

[NewsGuy]

Zionism is based on the belief that Jews should be entitled to live in the Jewish homeland of Israel.

It does not require that these Jews be observant necessarily. I think you're confusing "religious" with "observant", and so you are confused.

[takeo]

well, someone who isn't observant or even calls himself an atheist or at least does't believe in god, how can he or she be religious?

[takeo]

And can such a person immigrate to a country for Jewish people? (if his mother is Jewish)
I know he can, but it doesn't correspond to your theory

[NewsGuy]

This might be very difficult for you to understand, so I will try to simplify it as best I can:

There are Jews who are non-observant. (Just like there are Catholics who don't go to mass every Sunday). Maybe this example will lead you to understand the issues better.

Again, Zionism is based on the belief that Jews should be entitled to live in the Jewish homeland of Israel, and doesn't deal with the level of each Jew's observance.

I think the real issue that you are talking about is more is "Who is a Jew" for the purposes of the Israeli Law of Return.

[cerulean]

Could someone clarify the Law of Return, who qualifies for Israeli citizenship, and the impact of the recent High Court ruling on Reform and Conservative converts? I am pretty sure I understand these, but want to be sure.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by cerulean
Could someone clarify the Law of Return, who qualifies for Israeli citizenship, and the impact of the recent High Court ruling on Reform and Conservative converts? I am pretty sure I understand these, but want to be sure.

Here's my attempt:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?threadid=273&goto=newpost

[victot]

hey.
my father is not jewish, though my mother is, making me jewish.
i'm certainly not religious, i don't even know if i believe in g-d... it's one of my projects in life, to look at the universe and people, and to see if i think g-d exists, and if g-d does exist, are any of the religions here on earth correct? so far, i'm really undecided, though i think if i were about to die, i'd be praying like mad...

that being said, i do feel a connection to israel...
i know that on my mother's side, her parents, their parents, their parents... all suffered through persecution and hardships, to preserve their judaism...
the thing about dispora, is that in every country, jews had to face a lot of hardships to maintain their being jewish. the belief in g-d, the morals of the bible, the respect for custom... these ideals/beliefs meant enough to them to suffer through the persecutions of being this strange people with strange beliefs in a foreign land, who "killed christ" who "rejected mohammad" and what not...
i feel i owe it to my forefathers to preserve this relgion and lineage which they sacrificed so much to preserve.
the land of israel, and the city of jerusalem is so deeply rooted in judaism...
with the pride of belonging to a people who have survived so long, and has been through so much...
i believe in zionism - the path that respects my ancestors, and unites my people. us non-religous jews can be passionate about zionism too.

[cerulean]

.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by victot
i believe in zionism - the path that respects my ancestors, and unites my people. us non-religous jews can be passionate about zionism too.

wow, victot. Very powerful stuff and well stated.

Right there with you.

[eitan]

Do the jews in israel have an idea as to what it means to be a jew? do they care? what do you think? :confused:

[Flame]

Regardless of what any individual Jew believes... we all share one thing, unfortunatley... the vunerability of the unrelenting hate that the "goyim" have for us and their desires to see us wiped off the face of the earth.

[watcher]

Wasn't there some past propaganda to give zionism an extremely negative connotation? Something called elders of zion or something like that to portray Jews as wicked people? I know there's a lot of hateful garbage out there to try to cover the truth but Isn't there something like that out there that twists Zionism into something evil? Sure those who know the truth can see past the lies but I'm concerned those who don't know better may get confused and more hateful. Then again it's not up to us to delve into their propaganda but to continue to dismiss them and rest in the knowledge that Truth can never be covered, that lies have no power against those who seek the Truth and Loves what is Right.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by watcher
Wasn't there some past propaganda to give zionism an extremely negative connotation? Something called elders of zion or something like that to portray Jews as wicked people? I know there's a lot of hateful garbage out there to try to cover the truth but Isn't there something like that out there that twists Zionism into something evil?

Yes, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. This pamphlet was published in the early 1900s, and one would have thought it would have run its course by now, but no, it hasn't. In fact, it was recently made into a television mini-series in Saudi Arabia. It's interesting that Islamic sites are using European anti-Semitic propaganda (e.g. Martin Luther's screed from the early 1500s, and probably others - but I have not fully examined this). Arab newspapers and web sites are also repeating the medieval blood libel stories. Of course, the stuff is still being distributed in the US and Europe and probably elsewhere too.


Sure those who know the truth can see past the lies but I'm concerned those who don't know better may get confused and more hateful. Then again it's not up to us to delve into their propaganda but to continue to dismiss them and rest in the knowledge that Truth can never be covered, that lies have no power against those who seek the Truth and Loves what is Right.

I surely hope you are right!

[ibrodsky]

I think Zionism is nothing more nor less than Jewish nationalism. Remember, in the early days of the Zionist movement they considered Uganda as a possible homeland.

So I don't think it's quite true that Zionism required the ancient land of Israel... though it was the naturally preferred choice.

There were already Jews living there. There were Jewish historic and holy sites. And the fact is that though most of the inhabitants were Arabs at the time, the Arabs had little attachment to the land and had no visible national movement of their own. (Palestinian nationalism didn't emerge until post-1967, and it is hardly 100% sincere.)

In any event, now Israel is the Jewish state, and it's too late for Israel's opponents to demand that Jews find an alternative.

But the real issue today isn't Zionism. It's militant Islam. Jews have been trying to live in peace with Arabs for 50+ years. Israel has sought peace while many Arab countries and Islamic groups remain absolutely opposed to peace with Israel. Israel would love to cooperate with its neighbors, and help them build modern economies. But they don't want modern economies. What many of them want, unfortunately, is world conquest by Islam.

[mbczion]

Zionism in it's original form is very much "religious" in nature....

Three times a day in the Amida we pray for the return of all the Jews from the four corners of the earth to the land of Zion - Eretz Yisrael....

When we recite the Shema in Shacharit (morning) services, we gather the four tzitzit on our tallit as a sign that we are yearning for Jews to be gathered from the four corners of the earth back to Zion - Eretz Yisrael....

When we bench Birkat HaMazon after meals, we pray for the return to Eretz Yisrael and rebuilding of Yerushalayim....

Ramban said that when we observe the mitzvot outside of Eretz Yisrael we are only practicing the mitzvot for when we return to E"Y....

As you can see, "Zionism" in the truest sense of the word is very much rooted in the Jewish faith....

Now, "modern zionism" or "political zionism" which was founded by Theodore Hertzl is a different story. This movement was started as a response to anti-semitism and offered Jews a chance to take destiny into their own hands. This movement was secular in nature, although modern Orthodox Jews jumped on the bandwagon of "modern zionism" and participated in the building of Medinat Yisrael and continue to be an integral part of modern Israel to this day....

So, while "modern (or political) zionism" was founded by secular Jews and started out as a secular/political movement, it has not remained exclusively as such....

[physics]

Zionism is very simple. It's the idea that Jewish people have a right to live in an independent state.

[physics]

The conflict arises in the Law of Return, where the boundaries are blurry. The tradition of basing Jewish identity on maternal lineage is odd. Essentially, the father has no impact whatsover on a child's identity.

Consider this situation: Every child born to a Jewish mother, is automatically Jewish, even if every time the father was a goy. According to the tradition, Jewish women could have mixed with whoever they wished for generations, but their children were still Jewish.

Why can't a child be considered Jewish through father's lineage. I am simply critical of the tradition. Does a Jewish father's heritage simply become void when he mixes with a goy?

I think that the Law of Return does not allow children of Jewish fathers and Goy mothers to immigrate.

I also think that many children of Jewish-fathers Goy-mothers died in Holocaust because they were Jewish.

Isn't there a contradiction in the law?

[physics]

I am critical of the conflict between the Reform and Orthodox movement. Israel should base its immigration and recognition policies on all sectors of Judaism.

Consider this: A child of a Jewish father, goy mother can be considered Jewish by the reform movement. However, the child is not considered Jewish by Orthodox, and therefore Israel as well.

If Israel denies this reform Jew entry, then it's only Israel's loss. Israel should be glad to accept any willing Jew, whether reform or orthodox.

The orthodox domination in Israel must be altered. We live in 21st century, and Jews of other sectors should have equal rights in Israel. The orthodox may conduct their lives as they see fit, but other Jews should have their chance also.

[1.5 million]

physics a matrimonial lineage makes sense because one can never - for sure - know the lineage on the father's side - make sense?

[mbczion]

The conflict arises in the Law of Return, where the boundaries are blurry. The tradition of basing Jewish identity on maternal lineage is odd. Essentially, the father has no impact whatsover on a child's identity.

Consider this situation: Every child born to a Jewish mother, is automatically Jewish, even if every time the father was a goy. According to the tradition, Jewish women could have mixed with whoever they wished for generations, but their children were still Jewish.

Why can't a child be considered Jewish through father's lineage. I am simply critical of the tradition. Does a Jewish father's heritage simply become void when he mixes with a goy?

I think that the Law of Return does not allow children of Jewish fathers and Goy mothers to immigrate.

I also think that many children of Jewish-fathers Goy-mothers died in Holocaust because they were Jewish.

Isn't there a contradiction in the law?

The question of "Who is a Jew?" and "Who should be allowed to obtain Israeli citizenship under the 'Law of Return'?" are two different questions....

The answer to the former is clear-cut and forever- one who is born of a Jewish mother or one who converts to Judaism according to halacha....

There are several reasons for this halacha:

1) As noted by another poster, one cannot be 100% sure who the father of the child is....

2) There is a midrash that says the mother passes on the Torah to her child through her milk....

3) A child is generally more attached to the mother as she is the one who nurtures him/her when he/she is at the tender age of infanthood....

From the above reasons, as well as others that don't come to my mind at the moment, the Rabbis deduced that Jewish lineage is passed on through the mother and NOT through the father....

Now for the latter question....According to the Law of Return, anyone who has even one Jewish grandparent or who converts to Judaism (although, which kind of conversion- reform, conservative, orthodox, reconstructionist, etc. is still up in the air) can make aliyah....The basis for this is the Nuremberg Laws during the Holocaust, in which the Nazis threw anyone with even one Jewish grandparent into the concentration camps....IMO, allowing anyone with one Jewish grandparent to make aliyah made sense in certain times, but not so much anymore....I think the LOR needs to be modified a bit for anyone with one Jewish PARENT (whether father or mother) or who converts to Judaism according to halacha....Many people from the former Soviet Union have taken advantage of the ultra-liberal LOR to come to Israel just for financial reasons and are some of the biggest anti-semites of all....In the past decade, Jewish graves in Israel have been defaced with swatstikas (No, not by arabs!!!!) and kids have been threatened in school by bullies, "I'll beat you up you dirty Jew!!!!" So I believe the Law of Return needs to be tweaked a bit....If one does not fit the above criteria that I suggested for the LOR and is not in immediate danger because of his/her "Jewish lineage" in his/her respective country then he/she has no need to receive Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return....Not everyone who has one Jewish grandparent needs to be granted the privilege of making aliyah....

[physics]

I think the whole Maternal law is full of contradictions, but the situation is so complex that it's pointless to try to trace it back.

Obviously, there had to be the first proclaimed Jew. And the Jewish lineage continued based on this person.

[physics]

My problem is with the Orthodox domination in Israel. Israel should accept Jews from all sectors of Judaism, including Reform and Conservative. If the Orthodox want to keep a strict record of their family lineage, let them. Every Jew in the modern world should have equal access and recognition by Israel.

Every Jew should be eligible for Israeli citizenship and considered Jewish. If Orthodox want to distinguish between their own Jews and Reform Jews, let them. But there has to be something universal in Israel.

[physics]

I fully agree with you on letting any person with at least one Jewish parent to make Aaliyah. The grandfather clause should be eliminated in my opinion.

The main argument I am making is basically about the conflict between Orthodox and other sectors of Judaism. They disagree about Jewish identity.

[physics]

Many people from the former Soviet Union have taken advantage of the ultra-liberal LOR to come to Israel just for financial reasons and are some of the biggest anti-semites of all.

Yes, I am well aware of this. My family and I immigrated to Israel from Soviet Union. By the way, we are 100% Jewish according to Jewish law.

I truly hate those Anti-Semitic 100% goy Russians that escaped to Israel for economic reasons. They have the guts to insult Israel after they arrived! They are not even thankful!

[Robmc123]

what I've thought a few times is that Israel needs king to lead the people like the UK maybe just a figure head or maybe a true leader. Israel needs to get stronger now as the times are getting harder but now the time is to become a great helper nation spreading the thought of love and fellowship. Yes build the wall, I agree with the wall but do something to help the needy. With a king Israel would be stronger and we would all be happier, please tell me if I'm wrong?

[Mira]

what I've thought a few times is that Israel needs king to lead the people like the UK maybe just a figure head or maybe a true leader. Israel needs to get stronger now as the times are getting harder but now the time is to become a great helper nation spreading the thought of love and fellowship. Yes build the wall, I agree with the wall but do something to help the needy. With a king Israel would be stronger and we would all be happier, please tell me if I'm wrong?

Are you Christian?

[Robmc123]

Yes I am christian but I would like to know more about Jewish life today and know more about Israel and the surrounding area, can you help me or even point me in the right direction. I just want to understand what is happening over there as many of us in the UK only see the news and it is not enough information as to what is actually going on in the region.

We only hear "another bomb has gone off " and we think that is terrible but the majority, in my opinion, don't know the reasons why all this is going on. Most people are busy with their daily lives and the news is just another happening but if we, the UK people, understood what was going on then maybe something could be done.

There could be another post in this forum with the same question so if someone could put a pionter on that would be a good start.

[Ariksan]

Remember, in the early days of the Zionist movement they considered Uganda as a possible homeland.

I don't think this is an accurate assessment. It was not an idea of the Zionist Congress. The British colonial secretary offered Uganda - after setting up an investigatory commission the Seventh Zionist congress rejected the British proposal. Herzl, sometimes credited with supporting the British plan only considered it as a temporary refuge for Jews in Russia in immediate danger. He made it clear that this program would not affect the ultimate aim of Zionism, a Jewish entity in the Land of Israel.

A small group split from the Zionist Congress called the "Jewish Territorialists Organization" continued with plans for a Jewish homeland in other parts of the world but they had little support and faded away. For mainstream Zionism - socialist and revisionist - the Land of Israel was the only option with good reason.

[Mira]

Yes I am christian but I would like to know more about Jewish life today and know more about Israel and the surrounding area, can you help me or even point me in the right direction. I just want to understand what is happening over there as many of us in the UK only see the news and it is not enough information as to what is actually going on in the region.

We only hear "another bomb has gone off " and we think that is terrible but the majority, in my opinion, don't know the reasons why all this is going on. Most people are busy with their daily lives and the news is just another happening but if we, the UK people, understood what was going on then maybe something could be done.

There could be another post in this forum with the same question so if someone could put a pionter on that would be a good start.

Why if you don't know much about Israel today would you suggest that she needs a king? That's why I asked if you were a Christian, because your suggestion seems more ideological than pragmatic. If you want to know more about Israel and the surrounding areas today, the best way is to visit. It's safer than you would think if your only view is from the television and the place is filled with Christian pilgrims from all over the world.

[Yuval]

Hey.
In Hebrew we write: ציוניזם

Bey.:D

[alla]

Hi,
I was born in USSR and i can tell you that those jews who came to Israel from Ukraine where i was born are not religious mostly because of government's genocidal policy towards jews. In my city Odessa there was only one very small temple and it was burned several times.
There were no hebrew schools. So, basicly, what i am saying that nobody can blame us for not being familiar with religion and hebrew language. In my heart and my mind i am no lesser a jew as any orthodox according to talmud and to Lubavich reba Shneerson. I totaly support and love Israel.
My question is about non jewish zionists. There are thousand evengelic christians in america who think of themselfs as zionists. They moraly and financialy support Israel. Also i saw a small article on the internet about a few muslim zionists. Is it true that a zionist can be a non jew?

[alla]

The question of "Who is a Jew?" and "Who should be allowed to obtain Israeli citizenship under the 'Law of Return'?" are two different questions....

The answer to the former is clear-cut and forever- one who is born of a Jewish mother or one who converts to Judaism according to halacha....

There are several reasons for this halacha:

1) As noted by another poster, one cannot be 100% sure who the father of the child is....

2) There is a midrash that says the mother passes on the Torah to her child through her milk....

3) A child is generally more attached to the mother as she is the one who nurtures him/her when he/she is at the tender age of infanthood....

From the above reasons, as well as others that don't come to my mind at the moment, the Rabbis deduced that Jewish lineage is passed on through the mother and NOT through the father....

Now for the latter question....According to the Law of Return, anyone who has even one Jewish grandparent or who converts to Judaism (although, which kind of conversion- reform, conservative, orthodox, reconstructionist, etc. is still up in the air) can make aliyah....The basis for this is the Nuremberg Laws during the Holocaust, in which the Nazis threw anyone with even one Jewish grandparent into the concentration camps....IMO, allowing anyone with one Jewish grandparent to make aliyah made sense in certain times, but not so much anymore....I think the LOR needs to be modified a bit for anyone with one Jewish PARENT (whether father or mother) or who converts to Judaism according to halacha....Many people from the former Soviet Union have taken advantage of the ultra-liberal LOR to come to Israel just for financial reasons and are some of the biggest anti-semites of all....In the past decade, Jewish graves in Israel have been defaced with swatstikas (No, not by arabs!!!!) and kids have been threatened in school by bullies, "I'll beat you up you dirty Jew!!!!" So I believe the Law of Return needs to be tweaked a bit....If one does not fit the above criteria that I suggested for the LOR and is not in immediate danger because of his/her "Jewish lineage" in his/her respective country then he/she has no need to receive Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return....Not everyone who has one Jewish grandparent needs to be granted the privilege of making aliyah....

I totaly agree with you and i want to add more. Some of the russians who came to Israel could be Putin's agents and their goal is to penetrate and to get into Knesset, to make Israel a russian autonomy.
One such russian is already a knesset member and her name is Anastasiya Mihaeli (Mihalevskaya). There is a group of russians about 50 or more who demand from Israeli government an autonomy. They want their own russian village which includes a russian school, hospital, church, etc...
There are two leaders named Maksim Mushkalev and Anatoliy Gresin. I have information because i red an article in Haarez.
Gresin does not work, lives off the government subsidy. Mushkalev and Gresin claim that jews humiliate and attack them because they wear crosses and that is why russians need to build a fense and separate from jews.
The article was written by Lili Galili. I want to compare a cituation to a russian fairy tail about a wolf and seven little goats. Wolf puts on goat skin pretends to be a goat and enters the house, eats all little goats except one who hides well. By offering russians giyurs - conversion israeli government violates talmud which was never eliminated yet. When a russian becomes ger he is like a wolf in goat's skin still a wolf but such ger can officialy marry a jew under hoopa which is a crime in eyes of god. It is 21st century but as Tevie the milkman said to his daughter Hava "for us jews time will never change". I feel pain thinking that Israil will no longer be a jewish country but becomes a russian autonomy. One of my relatives says that he does not care about nationalities and i disagree. Arabs are open and visible enemies but a danger from russians is much more severe even so there is no war and no blood. The next generation of israelis from russian mothers will no longer be jewish. Lieberman and Anastasiya are going to push trough a law about civil marriages and that would be the end of israel as a jewish state.

[bararallu]

Anastasiya Mihaeli is a convert that is true. Do you have any proof that she is an agent of Russia and/or Putin?

[alla]

Anastasiya Mihaeli is a convert that is true. Do you have any proof that she is an agent of Russia and/or Putin?
ger or convert according talmud supposed to follow 613 jewish laws
and even if he/she does not follow even one her conversion needs to be cancelled. Anastasiya works on saturdays, she dresses inapropriately and she never cut off relationship with her russian relatives. That is 3 violations of jewish law. Convert has to prove his/her entire life that she is truly lives like a jew. If i had a proof that she is putin's agent i would be in Israel today standing near knesset with a slogan. One proof is that she will push for law to make civil marriages legal. Jews do not need civil marriages and it's only needed by russians and other groups. Mushkalev and Gresin are truly putin agents because they told Lily Galily that they have a big support in Russia (from whom?)

[alla]

Anastasiya Mihaeli is a convert that is true. Do you have any proof that she is an agent of Russia and/or Putin?

I am going to israeli forums in russian language on the web site odnoklassniki.ru (classmates)
I noticed two men there who appear on every topic and pose as jews. One of them even poses as a rav. Their names are Sergey Budniatskiy and Iliya Habi. Both were born in Saint Petersburg and both were studying Tora and Talmud while living in USSR. Budniatskiy is ethnic russian and a convert posing as a tsadik. He grew beard, mustage and peyses and he is teaching us, jews about jewish laws. When i mentioned that i am against converting russians to jews and was quoting Talmud they both attacked me ferociously.
Habi even sent me a picture of a gun and made an announcement that i am a crazy woman. Would a real rav do that? I seriously doubt. By coming to forums they make themselfs popular and known to general israeli public and in the future they too just like Anastasiya will become members of Knesset.
I don't know if anyone is paying attention to them or other russians.
I can only hope that Russia won't succeed in attempt to capture Israel

[bararallu]

As a born soviet Jew I'm also uncomfortable with gentile conversion to Judaism. We are an ethnic group (an extended family) as well as a religion, and conversion does not address the former in the least. That said, I don't think that the being a heredi in Israel, convert or not, is going to put one into a geo-strategic sensitive area. Neither Shas nor UTJ have ever been given national security portfolios. The other religious movements are all very nativist IMO.

All this said, I'm still looking forward to you demonstrating that Anastasiya Mihaeli is a plant/spy. It sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. As far as her conversion is in question- it should probably be fielded to her Rabbi. Also, being an American you are aware that a gentile can convert to Reconstructionism or Reform and make Aliah and be afforded all rights, included Oleh status, both as a Jew and as an Israeli. That per se has nothing to do with any movement, but there are indeed easier ways to become Jewish and have hallacha bootstrapped to the process. And that also has nothing to do with being a Russian native either.

[alla]

As a born soviet Jew I'm also uncomfortable with gentile conversion to Judaism. We are an ethnic group (an extended family) as well as a religion, and conversion does not address the former in the least. That said, I don't think that the being a heredi in Israel, convert or not, is going to put one into a geo-strategic sensitive area. Neither Shas nor UTJ have ever been given national security portfolios. The other religious movements are all very nativist IMO.

All this said, I'm still looking forward to you demonstrating that Anastasiya Mihaeli is a plant/spy. It sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. As far as her conversion is in question- it should probably be fielded to her Rabbi. Also, being an American you are aware that a gentile can convert to Reconstructionism or Reform and make Aliah and be afforded all rights, included Oleh status, both as a Jew and as an Israeli. That per se has nothing to do with any movement, but there are indeed easier ways to become Jewish and have hallacha bootstrapped to the process. And that also has nothing to do with being a Russian native either.

I am very glad to know that you were born in USSR. Let me explain my view on converts from other countries. If American converts and becomes ger that would be for reasons other than materialistic and other reasons that russians have on their agenda. And if such ger from America moves to Israel it will only be a plus to him and a great gain for Israel. America would become ger only because he finds judaism the only true religion and would like to become a jew only because he wants to serve god according to jewish laws. Such ger will never hurt a jewish country and will never gain much from becoming jewish. You are comparing apples and plums.
One of my friends on odnoklassniki.ru is so threatened by russian presense that he is suggesting a jewish autonomy and separation from russians in judea with capital in hebron. I am inviting you to register on odnoklassniku.ru and join all of us on israeli forum. My name is Alla Greenberg. If you join i will personaly invite you to my favorite forums.

[bararallu]

I am very glad to know that you were born in USSR.

FYI, I was born there but raised in NY since I was a child, and I subsequently made Aliah- so I am Israeli.

Let me explain my view on converts from other countries. If American converts and becomes ger that would be for reasons other than materialistic and other reasons that russians have on their agenda.

Materialistic? Russian Agenda? What do you consider "materialistic" and what do you consider the "Russian Agenda"? IMO, most conversions wherever they are are opportunistic- typically marriage related, to appease the Jewish in-laws. Most of them are furthermore done by the Reform movement. Which is predominant in North America only. At least that what looked to me when I did some research for my Masters in JTSA. The Conservative movement does a lot of those too, and I've sat in class with some gerrim; the ones at the seminary where in fact pretty serious. Well most. But I dont believe the majority of converts to the non hallachic branches are interested in Judaism per se.

And if such ger from America moves to Israel it will only be a plus to him and a great gain for Israel.

I disagree with all conversion. I believe it to be inherently unethical practice, with a horrific history to boot (including Jewish), and there are threads on this forum that I go into it at detail, with Halachic arguments as well.

America would become ger only because he finds judaism the only true religion and would like to become a jew only because he wants to serve god according to jewish laws.

i would be interested in seeing any studies/metrics on the subject.

Such ger will never hurt a jewish country and will never gain much from becoming jewish. You are comparing apples and plums.

Why is that? and compared to a French or a Russian convert? I'm not sure you understand that most gentiles and gerrim that died in the service of the IDF, and the state of Israel, were not and are not going to be American born. You do realize that?


One of my friends on odnoklassniki.ru is so threatened by russian presense that he is suggesting a jewish autonomy and separation from russians in judea with capital in hebron. I am inviting you to register on odnoklassniku.ru and join all of us on israeli forum. My name is Alla Greenberg. If you join i will personaly invite you to my favorite forums.


Thank you but I'm not interested in Russian run forums. There are a bunch of ex Soviet Jews here that fill that nitche, along with Jews from pretty much everywhere else. All of us are ethnic Jews and pro Israel, if not like me Israeli.

[alla]

If american or citizens of other countries except Russia converts and moves to israel it's not going to be materialistic but mainly because of spouse or idealistic but not to make more money there, not to gain a fortune.
Russians came to israel primarily to get housing and make more money.
Becoming a jew is important for them specificly for materialistic gain because they would get a nationality written in their document while not being a jew they have a blank space instead of nationality.
Am i right or wrong? Being a jew in a document lets russian to marry a jew officialy in israel instead of going to Cyprus and to have a religious ceremony.
They can get a better job being a jew or gain other priviledges which jews have.
Putin agents can become knesset members after becoming jews.
You can call it my conspiracy theory but let me tell you that when i came to America my social worker and teachers in english class noticed that i speak english freely and they suspected that i am a spy and informed FBI about that. I had an FBI agent visiting me and he informed that soviet union is using jewish immigration to America to sent their agents here and this is no joke. Can you say that you are positively sure that among one million three hundred thousand russians there is not even one Putin's agent? I am positively sure that there are more than one... My main concern is not about conversion of a few here and there but about mass conversion going on in Israel and about russians capturing israel without a fight in a pieceful way. Don't you beleive that Israel is going to be and international country, a russian autonomy, not a jewish country any more? That is mine, my friends and relatives concern at this moment. The government does not understand and does not pay attention to the fact that russians are in and they use any chance and any way to make israel a part of Russia......



I disagree with all conversion. I believe it to be inherently unethical practice, with a horrific history to boot (including Jewish), and there are threads on this forum that I go into it at detail, with Halachic arguments as well.



i would be interested in seeing any studies/metrics on the subject.



Why is that? and compared to a French or a Russian convert? I'm not sure you understand that most gentiles and gerrim that died in the service of the IDF, and the state of Israel, were not and are not going to be American born. You do realize that?



Thank you but I'm not interested in Russian run forums. There are a bunch of ex Soviet Jews here that fill that nitche, along with Jews from pretty much everywhere else. All of us are ethnic Jews and pro Israel, if not like me Israeli.[/QUOTE]

[Mil]

Posted by Alla:

One of my friends on odnoklassniki.ru is so threatened by russian presense that he is suggesting a jewish autonomy and separation from russians in judea with capital in hebron.

Полный пипец!!!! это просто ужас шо там дейтца!!!!

With all "our" Jewish nationalism (and so far from Israel) why use a Russian "friend" site and not something more close to home?... like Mark Zuckerberg's facebook.com . You know, я где то слышал, Putin and Co. are reading all odnoklasniki pages!!!!! Each and everyone!!!!

So what else do they say on Russian forums these days? Haven't read any lately.

Russians came to israel primarily to get housing and make more money.

As can be said about the many Jews who came to America.

Becoming a jew is important for them specificly for materialistic gain

? I have a friend, Nadya. Her mother was a goika but the mother died when Nadya was was still a baby. Nadya was raised 100% Jewish by her father's family. When Nadya was 13 she came to Israel along with her father. Israel did not consider Nadya Jewish. They, in Israel, probably thought Nadya was planning to extort Israel for money..... what you think?

[bararallu]

If american or citizens of other countries except Russia converts and moves to israel it's not going to be materialistic but mainly because of spouse or idealistic but not to make more money there, not to gain a fortune.
Russians came to israel primarily to get housing and make more money.

You can make the same argument for Russian speaking ethnic Jews. For Argentinian Jews, even for South African Jews to some extent. Better life is what Israel offers relative to a lot of these places, that includes being in a Jewish majority country and the economics as well. Also it's a non sequitur to your other point. Russians being materialistic as you say, to get free housing and make money is not the same as them coming en mass to infiltrate the state apparatus. In fact, I would argue that the Russian govt will more likely bribe and infiltrate via actual Jews already in government, both Russian speaking and otherwise. Very much like other intelligence organizations would do, including the Brits and Americans.


Becoming a jew is important for them specifically for materialistic gain because they would get a nationality written in their document while not being a jew they have a blank space instead of nationality.


Am i right or wrong? Being a jew in a document lets russian to marry a jew officialy in israel instead of going to Cyprus and to have a religious ceremony.

Well in the case of Mihaeli everyone knows shes a convert so how does it help her? You also need not convert to be listed as Jewish on your ID card. you can be 1/4th ethnically Jewish, mother's mother and still have the right to make Aliah. Exceptions can be made for less than 1/4 even.

They can get a better job being a jew or gain other priviledges which jews have.


There are ethnic Russians, Armenians, Arabs, Druse, etc in Israel that have all the rights and priveledges of citizenship all w/o being religiously Jewish though.


Putin agents can become knesset members after becoming jews.

Again, yes he can but he can do that today with real ethnic/relgious Jews.

You can call it my conspiracy theory but let me tell you that when i came to America my social worker and teachers in english class noticed that i speak english freely and they suspected that i am a spy and informed FBI about that. I had an FBI agent visiting me and he informed that soviet union is using jewish immigration to America to sent their agents here and this is no joke. Can you say that you are positively sure that among one million three hundred thousand russians there is not even one Putin's agent?

You have the claim so the burden of proof is on you to prove that this conspiracy is factual in any way. Is it possible, sure. Just as it is possible to find Iranian Jews who spy for Iran, British and American Jews that spy for the US in Israel.

Don't you beleive that Israel is going to be and international country, a russian autonomy, not a jewish country any more?

No I don't. Within a decade or two nearly no one will even speak Russian in Israel. The olim from the 70s don't really speak it. The Olim from the late 80s are nearly assimilated... and so on.

That is mine, my friends and relatives concern at this moment. The government does not understand and does not pay attention to the fact that russians are in and they use any chance and any way to make israel a part of Russia......

I think you owe to yourself to demonstrate that theory in some factual way.

[alla]

Полный пипец!!!! это просто ужас шо там дейтца!!!!
With all "our" Jewish nationalism (and so far from Israel) why use a Russian site and not something more close to home... like Mark Zuckerberg's facebook.com ... you know Putin and Co. might all be reading all that odnoklasniki.
So what else do they say on Russian forums these days? Haven't read any lately.

Israel does not have religion separated from government. According to talmud if one of the spouses is not jewish she/he makes her spouse also a non jew when they get married. So a child in this marriage can't possibly be jewish. This law was changed and later a child is only considered jewish if mother is jewish. If Nadia wants to be jewish she can convert by going to one of the ulpans and study there. In Israel jews are a title nation and it's up to them to decide who is a jew. I have a nephew in my family who's mother is jewish and in my eyes he is not a jew especialy after parents got divorced and he lives with a russian mother and russian grandma.
I also have a niece and nephew who's mother is jewish and father is ukrainian.
They do not consider themself jewish, have no interest in that. They live with people of other nations and do not plan to get married any time soon.
My step brother is a jew but his wife is not. He raised his daughter Anastasiya the way he wanted. She went to temple, knows hebrew and she beleives that she is jewish but i don't because mother is russian.
In America it doesn't metter as much as in Israel.
I can call myself a korean and nobody would care. Israel is another story.
Russia always wanted to capture israel militarily but all attempts failed so now it's trying the autonomy shtick because according to international law russians can demand a territory where they live and it's in center of Israel.
There are precidents like Kosovo and Osetia. May be not now, not today but they will get it and that is a problem. Nobody in America dares to demand autonomy and i wonder why.

Russians came to israel primarily to get housing and make more money.

As can be said about the many Jews who came to America.

Becoming a jew is important for them specificly for materialistic gain

? I have a friend, Nadya. Her mother was a goika but the mother died when Nadya was was still a baby. Nadya was raised 100% Jewish by her father's family. When Nadya was 13 she came to Israel along with her father. Israel did not consider Nadya Jewish. You tell me.... is that normal?[/QUOTE]

[Mil]

Posted by Alla:

Israel does not have religion separated from government. According to talmud if one of the spouses is not jewish she/he makes her spouse also a non jew when they get married. So a child in this marriage can't possibly be jewish. This law was changed and later a child is only considered jewish if mother is jewish.

Yeah, I was born to Jewish parents. My knowledge of things Jewish are a lot less then that of your every day Muslim. Does that make me Jewish on the eyes of Israel and I dear to say in the eyes of a certain Alla?

If Nadia wants to be jewish she can convert by going to one of the ulpans and study there.

Nadya is 35 now..... and why should a 13 years old child go to ulpan and study to make herself JEWISH!!!!

In Israel jews are a title nation and it's up to them to decide who is a jew.

What if they decide that Greenberg is a German name?

I have a nephew in my family who's mother is jewish and in my eyes he is not a jew especialy after parents got divorced and he lives with a russian mother and russian grandma.
I also have a niece and nephew who's mother is jewish and father is ukrainian.
They do not consider themself jewish, have no interest in that. They live with people of other nations and do not plan to get married any time soon.
My step brother is a jew but his wife is not. He raised his daughter Anastasiya the way he wanted. She went to temple, knows hebrew and she beleives that she is jewish but i don't because mother is russian.

Okay. Do "we" also eat kosher?

In America it doesn't metter as much as in Israel.

Which is STUPID!!!!! I think the guy is an idiot but you got to give him credit - Liberman understands all this idiocy about Jewish/non-Jewish rules and regulations!!!!!

Russia always wanted to capture israel militarily

A WHAT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is something new!!!!! Care to elaborate?


but all attempts failed so now it's trying the autonomy shtick because according to international law russians can demand a territory where they live and it's in center of Israel.

According to which "international" law exactly? This is something new to me.

There are precidents like Kosovo and Osetia. May be not now, not today but they will get it and that is a problem. Nobody in America dares to demand autonomy and i wonder why.

Russians are going to cede from Israel :) Yeah, I read about such demands in some Russian paper by a few dumb bells but I also read about a planned mass orgasm for "Peace" in Tel-Aviv (which unfortunately was canceled).

[Mediocrates]

Well then why do you think all those people went to the trouble of being repressed and oppressed in the Soviet Union? Just so that they could be called 'Jews'? You really think it's that great a reward?

[Mil]

Med - you would need to be from Russia to understand all this.

[alla]

Posted by Alla:

Israel does not have religion separated from government. According to talmud if one of the spouses is not jewish she/he makes her spouse also a non jew when they get married. So a child in this marriage can't possibly be jewish. This law was changed and later a child is only considered jewish if mother is jewish.

Yeah, I was born to Jewish parents. My knowledge of things Jewish are a lot less then that of your every day Muslim. Does that make me Jewish on the eyes of Israel and I dear to say in the eyes of a certain Alla?

If Nadia wants to be jewish she can convert by going to one of the ulpans and study there.

Nadya is 35 now..... and why should a 13 years old child go to ulpan and study to make herself JEWISH!!!!

In Israel jews are a title nation and it's up to them to decide who is a jew.

What if they decide that Greenberg is a German name?

I have a nephew in my family who's mother is jewish and in my eyes he is not a jew especialy after parents got divorced and he lives with a russian mother and russian grandma.
I also have a niece and nephew who's mother is jewish and father is ukrainian.
They do not consider themself jewish, have no interest in that. They live with people of other nations and do not plan to get married any time soon.
My step brother is a jew but his wife is not. He raised his daughter Anastasiya the way he wanted. She went to temple, knows hebrew and she beleives that she is jewish but i don't because mother is russian.

Okay. Do "we" also eat kosher?

In America it doesn't metter as much as in Israel.

Which is STUPID!!!!! I think the guy is an idiot but you got to give him credit - Liberman understands all this idiocy about Jewish/non-Jewish rules and regulations!!!!!

Russia always wanted to capture israel militarily

A WHAT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is something new!!!!! Care to elaborate?


but all attempts failed so now it's trying the autonomy shtick because according to international law russians can demand a territory where they live and it's in center of Israel.

According to which "international" law exactly? This is something new to me.

There are precidents like Kosovo and Osetia. May be not now, not today but they will get it and that is a problem. Nobody in America dares to demand autonomy and i wonder why.

Russians are going to cede from Israel :) Yeah, I read about such demands in some Russian paper by a few dumb bells but I also read about a planned mass orgasm for "Peace" in Tel-Aviv (which unfortunately was canceled).

I am elaborating on my statements. Russia never attacked israel but was always behind arab countries like Egypt and was supplying arms, planes MIG, tanks, etc. Even gave Nasser a medal "Hero of the soviet union"
Even today Russia supports Hamas and is behind it. Russia also supports Iran by supplying uran, submarines through Korea, etc.
Russia wants to destroy Israel by using other countries and by being behind them in a shadow. All soviet and russian efforts always failed and continue to fail because Hamas lost in the latest operation. It wasn't destroyed but it will be. According to United Nations law any minority can demand autonomy wherever they live. And you saw what happened in Kosovo that it's a separate entity now and so is Osetia.
We will see a russian autonomy in Israel if the government will look another way and ignore the situation.
There are people named Greenberg in Russia. A woman named Olga Greenberg and a man named Ivan Greenberg consider themselfs russian.
They are not sure where the name Greenberg came from but assume that it came from Germany and it's a german name. If Israel decides to consider everybody named Greenberg germans so be it. They make their own laws and so what?
If we as jews don't follow kashruth, and don't follow any jewish law it does not matter according to Talmud and according to late Lubavich reba Shneerson. As long as you are a jew and born to jewish parents you are no lesser jew as hasid is. But a convert-ger according to Talmud has to follow all 613 laws and has to prove every day for the rest of his life that lives according to jewish laws. As soon as convert violates at least one law his convertion has to be anulled. Do you understand? My brother use to say
"Тоже мне еврейка? Можно подумать! Когда ты в последний раз была в синагоге?" And talmud answers to that question that it does not matter.

[Mil]

Posted by Alla:

I am elaborating on my statements. Russia never attacked israel but was always behind arab countries like Egypt and was supplying arms, planes MIG, tanks, etc. Even gave Nasser a medal "Hero of the soviet union"

Yeah - USSR had lots of clients in the Middle East during the Cold War. They especially enjoyed a close relationship with the biggest and the most influential Arab country - Egypt. However, not all countries in the Middle East, which also took military action against Israel, were clients of USSR. This specifically applies to Jordan, North Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Morocco - though this applies more to Jordan.

It was a Cold War and USSR was very much part of that war. The fact that USSR had an interest to keep the world off balance, especially in the Middle East, was part of the game. The fact that Israel gave a whooping to all those Soviet clients and embarrassed USSR is a testament to Israel but all should be viewed in the right perspective.

By the way Moshe Dayan was given a Foreign Legion medal by the French.

Even today Russia supports Hamas and is behind it. Russia also supports Iran by supplying uran, submarines through Korea, etc.

Russia is selling weapons to Iran just like America is selling weapons to Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Lebanon. The are also arming the PA.

Russia wants to destroy Israel by using other countries and by being behind them in a shadow.

In a shadow.... that's interesting. Just recently Russia and Israel signed a free travel agreement between two nations. Russians and Israelis don't need a visa to travel between two countries. A conspiracy!!!! Russian spies can now travel to Israel and vice versa!!!

I have lots of relatives in Israel. All of them have Russian television which the primary way they get news. Especially news about the United States....

All soviet and russian efforts always failed and continue to fail because Hamas lost in the latest operation.

So it's Russia behind all this? Is that what your friends on sobutilniki say?


And you saw what happened in Kosovo that it's a separate entity now and so is Osetia.
We will see a russian autonomy in Israel if the government will look another way and ignore the situation.

:)


There are people named Greenberg in Russia. A woman named Olga Greenberg and a man named Ivan Greenberg consider themselfs russian.

So what makes you Jewish?


They are not sure where the name Greenberg came from but assume that it came from Germany and it's a german name. If Israel decides to consider everybody named Greenberg germans so be it. They make their own laws and so what?

So what? In fact I always wandered how does Israel consider anyone Jewish? do they take a DNA?


"Тоже мне еврейка? Можно подумать! Когда ты в последний раз была в синагоге?" And talmud answers to that question that it does not matter.

Можно подумать!!!!!

Хош анекдот?



Babi razgovarivaut:

A: Ya segodnya noch'yu vo vremya TOGO potrogala u
svoego Izi yaitsa -- a oni holodnye.
B: A u moego Moni oni vo vremya TOGO vsegda holodnye.
C: A ya u svoego Haima segodnya potrogayu.

Na sleduyushchij den' C prihodit co zdorovennym
sinyakom pod glazom i rasskazyvaet:
- Zanimaemsya my s Haimom nochyu llyubov'yu.
Beru ya ego za yaitsa. A oni -- goryachie!
Ya i spprashivayu: "Haim, pochemu u Izi o Moni
yaitsa vo vremya TOGO holodnye, a u tebya
goryachie?" Nu i....

[bararallu]

"Тоже мне еврейка? Можно подумать! Когда ты в последний раз была в синагоге?" And talmud answers to that question that it does not matter.

It does matter though. The Talmuds say other things, do you follow all 613 of them? Open assimilation w/o much anti-Semitism dooms our existence. Not that I'm hoping for the latter, but building and upkeeping a community (rather than just surviving) is something a lot of Eastern European Jews just forget. A shul is just one institution, there are others, most complementary.

[alla]

bararallu It does matter though. The Talmuds say other things, do you follow all 613 of them? Open assimilation w/o much anti-Semitism dooms our existence. Not that I'm hoping for the latter, but building and upkeeping a community (rather than just surviving) is something a lot of Eastern European Jews just forget. A shul is just one institution, there are others, most complementary.
__________________
Talmud says that if a jew does not folloow 613 commendments it does not make him a lesser jew. And this statement was supported by lubavich reba Sheerson himself. On the other hand a non jew who wants to be a jew and is demanding giyur has to follow all 613 commendments every day of his life and has to always prove that he lives like a jew. Non of the current gers are following them and that is why all giyurs are fake. One of the commendments is that ger should dump and completely cut ties with his parents, non jewish spouse, brothers and sisters. Nobody is doing this. Jews born to jewish parents especialy from the former soviet union republics who did not get proper jewish upbringing are no lesser jews that an orthdox jew is even if they are not upkeeping the community and don't do anything. That is what Talmud says.

[redcake]

Alla - I don't know if threads got merged or if I skipped some posts reading this thread over, but since it doesn't appear that anyone has answered your question, I'll do my best.

Zionism is a basic tenet of Judaism. All religious Jews believe in some form of what has been given the term "Zionism". At it's core, to be a Zionist can merely mean to just believe in a Jewish people deserving of a homeland through the Jewish right to self determination. You can be of any religion, political identity, or ethnicity and be a Zionist, and at one point there were many different Zionist movements with some very conflicting motivations, and beliefs, but they all shared the same general goal. From a religious standpoint, both Muslim and Christian scriptures feature sections which are Zionist in nature, so it is possible to support Zionism from the perspective of religious devotion to any of the "Abrahamic faiths".

[bararallu]

Talmud says that if a jew does not folloow 613 commendments it does not make him a lesser jew.

really, where? Ever hear of apikorim? :D There are massive tirades against non practicing, 'hellenized' Jews all over our Talmudim. I've read a few in college.

And this statement was supported by lubavich reba Sheerson himself.

Are you Lubavitch? I personally dont care what he said (not to insult his memory, but I was never a Lubavitch, as most Jews aren't). When I was hallachic, I didnt care and I don't right now either.

On the other hand a non jew who wants to be a jew and is demanding giyur has to follow all 613 commendments every day of his life and has to always prove that he lives like a jew.

I agree.


Non of the current gers are following them and that is why all giyurs are fake. One of the commendments is that ger should dump and completely cut ties with his parents, non jewish spouse, brothers and sisters. Nobody is doing this.

Man, I thought I was tough on this issue. I disagree with all of the current guirim being fake. Many, especially not converted to marry in an orthodox movement, are immensely observant. To the letter observant. You raise some ethical issues that I also agree with regarding conversion. But those don't always apply.


Jews born to jewish parents especialy from the former soviet union republics who did not get proper jewish upbringing are no lesser jews that an orthdox jew is even if they are not upkeeping the community and don't do anything. That is what Talmud says.


You are right and wrong. You are right in the sense that we have actual roots to claim to be Jews. Ethnic, genealogical roots, how ever "diluted" and Jews are an ethnic amalgam, genetic studies to date prove that, but we all have a thread of ancient Israel in us. A Ger is a different category, that is what is confusing. A category that is more like a graft to a tree rather than an outgrowth of a tree, to use an analogy. The children of gerim and Jews are Jews. To say otherwise would be counter to not only tradition but reality.... since we have significant additions to our genealogy throughout history.

A few of the greatest tsadiks that have lived were gerim (ever here of Onkolos?). You are wrong in that the Talmud, or rather Halacha/minhog not addressing much of this (sans references to modernity of course). There are chuvot on all of these things, and pretty much across all orthodoxy (not to mention the non Halachic movements).

Generally, I'm one of the few people here that argue this line, but you should be careful and not overstate the case. Try to stay factual and your claims can have validity. To negate religious observance is nonsensical- nothing in the Talmud would support this (which Talmud bytheway?). But to state that many of the gerim are non observant, can be a discussion. To say that a ger needs to practice or not be affiliated is fair and just. I'm in the minority here, as the position is in the minority generally.