Bush le simplet

[mimil]

You guys are obviously having a lot of fun !! :-) So I won't disturb you on that.

As for the few attacks on Singapore, although I don't personally agree with all that is being done here, you have to give the country the credit for what they have achieved in such a short period of time.

First and foremost, I am not a local. I work here. I do have some strong links with locals, though; as I will probably one day marry with one.

I assume that some of you are referring to Michael Faye and his canning. The move was mostly political; he got cane to show the example and to show other country that Singapore is not fooling around with laws. Give me a break I know of some other very respectable countries that do exactly the same. Do you really need examples of pseudo spies who got death penalty for not doing much because the Russians could not have built a nuclear bomb on their own or some Japanese that were brought to the Supreme Court for simply being Japanese at the wrong time? Besides, the move was not very smart, you don't go vandalize a country which is not yours and later complain that you get punished for it. There is a certain number of things I am no longer allowed to do, I made my choices and stick to it. "In Rome do as the Romans". Nobody force any one to stay in Singapore, the airport is well served and you can leave anytime you want.

Aside from this, if you want to have anything to say about the way Singapore is handled and the various laws that you might find absurd, you will have to understand the Asian culture, the complexity of the ethnical composition of the region and have a little idea of what Chinese are like. I know of very few other places where multiculturalism has been attempted as it has been here.

During WWII, the English had enough trouble home to bother about a small colony on the other side of the world. When the war ended, locals nicely told them to go to hell, if they could not protect them when they needed help; they didn't need them as rulers anymore. Singapore was not at the time the successful country that it is now. And they didn't have a lot of solutions to make things better, no resources, a very small Island. They had to emphasize on what they had, a strategic position and human capital.

And came Lee Kuan Yew, an English educated Chinese by the way. I think that he understood something very well, democracy and individual liberties is not the starting point of success and development, it is the outcome of it. And the country is opening, for example Goh Chok Tong was on “Hard talk” on BBC last month, something that was unlikely to happen in the past. You can now chew gums, although, you are not allowed to buy or sell it (For the reference). The new generation is more open to dialog, are interested in political discussions and have a certain number of values that will enable the country to be more flexible and less reprehensive.

To be honest, I had the same reaction as you when I first arrived. Now I start to better understand and respect what has been achieved here. I also better understand the reasons for such a hard system. Without a total ban of secret society, the mafia like gangs of loan sharks and other illegal gambling business will have never come to a stop. Without a hard approach on every aspect of life and the creation of safe and secure environment, the economic growth would not have been possible. Singapore survived quite well the Asian financial crises, a lot better than Malaysia or Indonesia, where you can now see the emergence of Islamic groups (And I believe it is “the” major reason for this emergence). The Indonesian rupee was devaluated by 60% during the crisis, I can’t imagine the chaos in any North American or European country if this was to happen to them.

In the end, Singapore is a nice place to stay. It is safe, clean, almost crime free. You can leave your house open, go to a concert and leave your belongings unattended for hours and find them where you left them. Ok it is not a democratic country and freedom of speech is not yet at the menu, but they don’t go around bombing what they feel should be, they don’t wrap themselves in plastic and blast buses, they don’t make stupid statements about jews, so please give them a break.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by mimil
You guys are obviously having a lot of fun !! :-) So I won't disturb you on that.

Oh come on... Inquiring minds are waiting to hear more about vampires and werewolves and their genetic offspring....

As for the few attacks on Singapore, although I don't personally agree with all that is being done here, you have to give the country the credit for what they have achieved in such a short period of time.

Kinda like NAZI Germany rebuilding it's economy after WWI; I suppose they deserved a certain amount of credit, too, and ignore the fascism? I don't think so...

First and foremost, I am not a local. I work here. I do have some strong links with locals, though; as I will probably one day marry with one.



I assume that some of you are referring to Michael Faye and his canning. The move was mostly political; he got cane to show the example and to show other country that Singapore is not fooling around with laws. Give me a break I know of some other very respectable countries that do exactly the same. Do you really need examples of pseudo spies who got death penalty for not doing much because the Russians could not have built a nuclear bomb on their own or some Japanese that were brought to the Supreme Court for simply being Japanese at the wrong time?

Pseudo spies and not doing much? Do you really want to go there?

Besides, the move was not very smart, you don't go vandalize a country which is not yours and later complain that you get punished for it.

That's right, so the Jihadists have nothing to gripe about.....

There is a certain number of things I am no longer allowed to do, I made my choices and stick to it. "In Rome do as the Romans". Nobody force any one to stay in Singapore, the airport is well served and you can leave anytime you want.

I'm not sure I would've used "In Rome do as the Romans" reference, on an Israel/Jewish forum.....

Aside from this, if you want to have anything to say about the way Singapore is handled and the various laws that you might find absurd, you will have to understand the Asian culture, the complexity of the ethnical composition of the region and have a little idea of what Chinese are like. I know of very few other places where multiculturalism has been attempted as it has been here.

Didn't you mention something in another post about groups and sects?

During WWII, the English had enough trouble home to bother about a small colony on the other side of the world. When the war ended, locals nicely told them to go to hell, if they could not protect them when they needed help; they didn't need them as rulers anymore. Singapore was not at the time the successful country that it is now. And they didn't have a lot of solutions to make things better, no resources, a very small Island. They had to emphasize on what they had, a strategic position and human capital.

Without the british, it's a good chance that you'd be waving a Chinese flag and Mao's little red book..... but that could be an upcoming problem anyway.

And came Lee Kuan Yew, an English educated Chinese by the way. I think that he understood something very well, democracy and individual liberties is not the starting point of success and development, it is the outcome of it.

Unremarkably similar to Mao's philosophy.... Gee.. I wonder why that is?

And the country is opening, for example Goh Chok Tong was on “Hard talk” on BBC last month, something that was unlikely to happen in the past.

So why do you think that's happening; opening I mean?

You can now chew gums, although, you are not allowed to buy or sell it (For the reference).

Many states in the United States are having the same types of issues between state and federal law as applies to medical marijuana, but I think you can legally get gum with delta nine THC, with a prescription.

The new generation is more open to dialog, are interested in political discussions and have a certain number of values that will enable the country to be more flexible and less reprehensive.

Yez.... We talked about Singapore's shared values in some old threads.. So much for freedom of thought...

To be honest, I had the same reaction as you when I first arrived. Now I start to better understand and respect what has been achieved here. I also better understand the reasons for such a hard system. Without a total ban of secret society, the mafia like gangs of loan sharks and other illegal gambling business will have never come to a stop. Without a hard approach on every aspect of life and the creation of safe and secure environment, the economic growth would not have been possible.

No other countries have been as prosperous as Singapore; they're too unsafe...... :rolleyes: How do you account for the other economies? How about the United States; rampant crime, little to no gun control, secret societies, legal and illegal gambling, loan sharks, and mafia; how do you account for it being the largest economy in the world? It certainly isn't because it has the largest number of human capital....

Singapore survived quite well the Asian financial crises, a lot better than Malaysia or Indonesia, where you can now see the emergence of Islamic groups (And I believe it is “the” major reason for this emergence). The Indonesian rupee was devaluated by 60% during the crisis, I can’t imagine the chaos in any North American or European country if this was to happen to them.

Then you don't know American history very well. Ever hear of The Great Depression? We didn't have a civil war over it, if that's the level of chaos you think it would create.

In the end, Singapore is a nice place to stay. It is safe, clean, almost crime free. You can leave your house open, go to a concert and leave your belongings unattended for hours and find them where you left them.

Safe, clean and almost crime free? Isn't that a contradiction, saying it's "safe" and "almost crime free"? Doesn't that mean that some poor slob is getting robbed, raped, or beaten, while someone else isn't; or that it just happens once in a while? And what do you mean by "clean"? Can or would you eat off a sidewalk? How clean is clean?

Ok it is not a democratic country and freedom of speech is not yet at the menu, but they don’t go around bombing what they feel should be, they don’t wrap themselves in plastic and blast buses, they don’t make stupid statements about jews, so please give them a break.

Of course they don't make stupid statements about jews - not yet - they can't; they don't have freedom of speech...... That's probably the smart thing, too.

[TDidier]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny Yuma

Interresting conversation, are you trying to write a suite for "The Lord of the Ring" ?

I just watched the DVD of "The Twin Towers", the second volume's movie (or "The Two Towers"...)... Excelent movie but the book is still the top.

Tolkien was a Master and you have to work a bit more to reach his level in Heroic-Fantasy :D .

SeeU, friends.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by TDidier
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny Yuma

Interresting conversation, are you trying to write a suite for "The Lord of the Ring" ?

I just watched the DVD of "The Twin Towers", the second volume's movie (or "The Two Towers"...)... Excelent movie but the book is still the top.

Tolkien was a Master and you have to work a bit more to reach his level in Heroic-Fantasy :D .

SeeU, friends.

I see you are a bit behind in your reading of classical literature; Beowulf, and Virginia Woolfe, to name a few. And I'm going to ignore your reference to "The Twin Towers". I'll leave that for others to sort out.

[Lowell]

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
I see you are a bit behind in your reading of classical literature; Beowulf, and Virginia Woolfe, to name a few. And I'm going to ignore your reference to "The Twin Towers". I'll leave that for others to sort out.

Well, Virginia Woolfe often had recourse to 'hair of the wolf', she being quite the tippler. If that's classic... I miss the old days sometimes. And this was good enough to tip me into 400. :)

[mimil]

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma

Kinda like NAZI Germany rebuilding it's economy after WWI; I suppose they deserved a certain amount of credit, too, and ignore the fascism? I don't think so...


There is no way you can compare Nazi Germany and Singapore, simply now way. Don’t be a fool will you. If you are to do such comparisons, on what bases do you do them? Please justify.

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma


Pseudo spies and not doing much? Do you really want to go there?


Sure


Originally posted by Johnny Yuma

Didn't you mention something in another post about groups and sects?


Ok Mr. smart, here is the recipe:

Ethnic composition: Chinese 76.8%, Malay 13.9%, Indian 7.9%, Others 1.4%
Language: English, Chinese, Malay, Tamil
Religions: Islam, Buddhism and Taoism, Hinduism, Christianity, Sikhism
Area: 647.5 sq km

Now please give me a relevant and possible solution to have all this little mixture work and live together in such a small place without denying anyone language or religious believes. Justify your answer.

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
Unremarkably similar to Mao's philosophy.... Gee.. I wonder why that is?


What is your point? Singapore is like China? On what criteria do you base your judgement. Please justify with relevant facts and research. I haven’t heard of any mass repression in Singapore, nor seen anything alike the Mao’s Cultural Revolution.

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
So why do you think that's happening; opening I mean?


What is your call? I believe you already have an opinion on the issue rather than an understanding of it. Please share and justify with relevant facts and research.

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
Yez.... We talked about Singapore's shared values in some old threads.. So much for freedom of thought...


Don’t you guys have some passionate relationship with your flag every morning at school? I don’t agree with such brain washing anyway, whether it is here or elsewhere. And just to let you know, I don’t know of many who strongly believe in the shared values. They sound a lot more reasonable than some staff of General Electrics for example (Take a look at there shared value, it is rather impressive). I would be rather interested in you providing a social study of the impact and spread of the Singapore shared values among its inhabitants.

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
No other countries have been as prosperous as Singapore; they're too unsafe...... :rolleyes: How do you account for the other economies? How about the United States; rampant crime, little to no gun control, secret societies, legal and illegal gambling, loan sharks, and mafia; how do you account for it being the largest economy in the world? It certainly isn't because it has the largest number of human capital....


You sure have to be very proud of all of the above no. What a great achievement! Anyway how can you compare Singapore and the US? You want some other statistics? Actually I think you could take pretty much any criteria and find out that Singapore and the US are pretty much the antipodes of each other. But again, I would be more than pleased if you were to make light on what you are comparing and what hypothesis allow you to do such a comparison.

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
Then you don't know American history very well. Ever hear of The Great Depression? We didn't have a civil war over it, if that's the level of chaos you think it would create.


Funny guy. It has to be the first time I hear of such a thing. What again, the great depression, is it a storm? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
Safe, clean and almost crime free? Isn't that a contradiction, saying it's "safe" and "almost crime free"? Doesn't that mean that some poor slob is getting robbed, raped, or beaten, while someone else isn't; or that it just happens once in a while? And what do you mean by "clean"? Can or would you eat off a sidewalk? How clean is clean?



Don’t play with words, being crime free is a utopia. What is your point anyway? You should come have a look at the general behavior of people here. I have seen parents teaching their kids to through the garbage by the window, restaurants dumping the leftovers directly in the bay. Now you get fine for dumping a cigarette butt on the street, but hey people asked for it. It is rather disturbing when people consider breaking laws as an individual right.

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
Of course they don't make stupid statements about jews - not yet - they can't; they don't have freedom of speech...... That's probably the smart thing, too.

How come I am not arrested yet? I am talking am I, even speaking out my opinions. But still what is your point? Singapore is not perfect? That’s a new

[TDidier]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
"I see you are a bit behind in your reading of classical literature; Beowulf, and Virginia Woolfe, to name a few. "

I'm a so low educated french guy, you know ?!
(but Tolkien is a major author...).

" And I'm going to ignore your reference to "The Twin Towers". I'll leave that for others to sort out. "

Exactly what as done GWBush and his gang: ignore the twin towers drame and stole the whole world allegence to fight the terrorisme to do their acts of pirateries and of colonisations.
Those are those did not respect the victims... And play with the familly to their own profits.

SeeU, Master Johnny.
Didier.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by mimil
There is no way you can compare Nazi Germany and Singapore, simply now way. Don’t be a fool will you. If you are to do such comparisons, on what bases do you do them? Please justify.

Sure I can make the comparison, and did.. Here's what you said:
Originally posted by mimil
......., although I don't personally agree with all that is being done here, you have to give the country the credit for what they have achieved in such a short period of time.

I, personally, didn't agree with what Nazi Germany did, but they did an incredible job of rebuilding their economy after WWI, along with technological break-throughs, in a short period of time.

I said the same thing you did. You just didn't like the country I picked.

Ok Mr. smart, here is the recipe:

Ethnic composition: Chinese 76.8%, Malay 13.9%, Indian 7.9%, Others 1.4%
Language: English, Chinese, Malay, Tamil
Religions: Islam, Buddhism and Taoism, Hinduism, Christianity, Sikhism
Area: 647.5 sq km

Now please give me a relevant and possible solution to have all this little mixture work and live together in such a small place without denying anyone language or religious believes. Justify your answer.

Okay. A blivet is a relevant theoretical quantity of symbiotic mixtures living and working together in a small place.... Almost identical to your little island...



What is your point? Singapore is like China ? On what criteria do you base your judgement. Please justify with relevant facts and research. I haven’t heard of any mass repression in Singapore, nor seen anything alike the Mao’s Cultural Revolution .

These are your own words:
Originally posted by mimil
I think that he understood something very well, democracy and individual liberties is not the starting point of success and development, it is the outcome of it .

Originally posted by mimilOk it is not a democratic country and freedom of speech is not yet at the menu .

Sounds pretty repressed, to me....



What is your call? I believe you already have an opinion on the issue rather than an understanding of it. Please share and justify with relevant facts and research.

I don’t have an opinion about it, and that’s why I was asking… (Honestly, I don't really care. I'm just pleased that you can't walk around on the streets and say what you want.... I think I'll go outside and tell every person I meet to f***- off and die, just because I can.....)

Don’t you guys have some passionate relationship with your flag every morning at school? I don’t agree with such brain washing anyway, whether it is here or elsewhere.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with patriotism and the love of ones country and flag. That being said, it is also the last refuge of a scoundrel, according to Thomas Jefferson, I believe. He said something to the effect that a good argument will stand on its own, and there is no reason to wrap it in a flag for support.

And just to let you know, I don’t know of many who strongly believe in the shared values. They sound a lot more reasonable than some staff of General Electrics for example (Take a look at there shared value, it is rather impressive). I would be rather interested in you providing a social study of the impact and spread of the Singapore shared values among its inhabitants.

Newspeak. Let me tell you what we all now believe.... today. Tomorrow it may be different. Orwellian, at best.



You sure have to be very proud of all of the above no. What a great achievement! Anyway how can you compare Singapore and the US? You want some other statistics? Actually I think you could take pretty much any criteria and find out that Singapore and the US are pretty much the antipodes of each other. But again, I would be more than pleased if you were to make light on what you are comparing and what hypothesis allow you to do such a comparison.

I don't know how I feel about it. I've known some wise guys, in my time. They never bothered me. But my point was that you said it would have been impossible for the economic success of Singapore without implementing a hard line approach. Well, actually, you didn't say it that way, you said it this way:

Originally posted by mimil
I also better understand the reasons for such a hard system. Without a total ban of secret society, the mafia like gangs of loan sharks and other illegal gambling business will have never come to a stop. Without a hard approach on every aspect of life and the creation of safe and secure environment, the economic growth would not have been possible.

My point was that you could have, because we did it , with all the things you said would never come to a stop....



Don’t play with words, being crime free is a utopia. What is your point anyway? You should come have a look at the general behavior of people here. I have seen parents teaching their kids to through the garbage by the window, restaurants dumping the leftovers directly in the bay. Now you get fine for dumping a cigarette butt on the street, but hey people asked for it. It is rather disturbing when people consider breaking laws as an individual right.

Don't play with words? You were the one "playing" with the words.

Originally posted by mimil
In the end, Singapore is a nice place to stay. It is safe, clean, almost crime free.
You cannot be crime free and almost crime free, simultaneously; it’s crime free, or, not crime free; not crime free and “almost crime free”. That's like “partial circumcision"; it just doesn't really work well....


How come I am not arrested yet? I am talking am I, even speaking out my opinions. But still what is your point? Singapore is not perfect? That’s a news!

You are not standing on a street corner in Singapore, shouting your opinions, Mimil. You are posting written text, anonymously on a website. If you went into the streets with a sign or stood on the corner with a megaphone and repeated what you have written on this forum, where would you reside, today? Would you be saying your wedding vows to a 300lb cell mate?…… I wonder what kind of shared values you're going to have with her, when they finally catch up with you....

[Lowell]

Singapore is very tough on computer hackers and virus creators-

[This is probably one of the reasons you *NEVER* hear about hackers from
Singapore. From the The Straits Times. July 1, 1998. - William]



* OFFENCES on "protected computers", such as accessing and
altering programmes and causing problems in receiving or
despatching resources for emergency services: fine up to
$100,000, jail up to 20 years.

* Unauthorised access to someone's web server or personal
computer: fine up to $5,000 (up from $2,000), jail up to
two years, or both.

* Unauthorised modification to computer material, such
as introducing a computer virus, and unauthorised use or
interception, such as cloning mobile phones and pagers,
or using someone else's Internet account password to gain
access to the Internet: fine $10,000 (up from $2,000),
jail up to three years (from two years previously), or both.

* Getting access to computers to commit a crime, even if
it is authorised access: fine up to $50,000, jail up to
10 years, or both.

* Interfering with or obstructing the lawful use of a computer,
or disclosing passwords or access codes to unauthorised users:
fine up to $10,000, jail up to three years, or both.

* If the offence causes damage, such as a loss of at least
$10,000: fine up to $50,000 (up from $20,000), jail up to
seven years (up from five years), or both.

source: http://www.landfield.com/isn/mail-archive/1998/Jul/0016.html

It'd be nice if the US was as hardnosed about computer crimes. Tell us, mimil, do Singaporeans have free access to the Internet? Or is it like China where access is limited?

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by TDidier
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
"I see you are a bit behind in your reading of classical literature; Beowulf, and Virginia Woolfe, to name a few. "

I'm a so low educated french guy, you know ?!
(but Tolkien is a major author...).

" And I'm going to ignore your reference to "The Twin Towers". I'll leave that for others to sort out. "

Exactly what as done GWBush and his gang: ignore the twin towers drame and stole the whole world allegence to fight the terrorisme to do their acts of pirateries and of colonisations.
Those are those did not respect the victims... And play with the familly to their own profits.

SeeU, Master Johnny.
Didier.

Actually, Didier, I never thought you were low educated. Quite the contrary. I just think you're low. As a matter of fact, you're about as poor an excuse for a human being as I've ever met. You see.... I was going to ignore your not so thinly disguised dig about the "twin towers" in the original post, thinking that if I said something that you would deny it being a reference to New York, but I've decided, since you did what I assumed you would do, that is, show that it was an intentional remark, I will tell you what I originally intended to say in response. But first, let me preface it by saying that I was sickened by what I saw, live on the television, early that morning; the jets hitting the buildings and people plummeting to their deaths, not to mention, later, as the buildings collapsed, and even more people perished. You see, Didier, my sister-in-law lives in Manhatten, and my brother works there as well, not to mention other friends of mine that work around where the trade center "was". So my family and I went without knowing their whereabouts or conditions. It was as horrible a day, which dragged into a horrible week, as I can remember. And there are many, many others like me in this country, Didier; people who lost loved ones or agonized over the missing, or dead. So.............having told you that, I now tell you this:

Eventually, Didier, they will strike the country you reside in, be it France or some other cesspool, and I hope you are not one of the casualties in the attack; non. I want you to survive, Didier. I want you to survive and be a witness. And... on that day, I want you to remember me, and what I said to you.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by mimil
...

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by mimil
...

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by mimil
...

[Johnny Yuma]

... about turning the stuff over to the consulate. They'd just throw it away. I can just email it directly to the minister of information, instead....

[Johnny Yuma]

I just wanted you to wake up to wake up and smell the coffee. It's a more enjoyable cup, when you don't have to worry about the "Thought Police" kicking in your door and dragging you off to prison....

[mimil]

Johnny, I still don’t find your comparison with nazi Germany appropriate. It is misleading and does not reflect any reality.

I still find your comparison with China not appropriate, and also find it misleading.


Then I am a little confused about your goal here, my point was to somehow show you that this place is actually opening and that several attempts are made in that direction. And that I believe such actions are to be welcomed. I also feel that stereotypes used to discredit anything done by the country is attempting are misleading and should not be overused.


Finally, and here the fault is mine, I get upset when people to make fun of Singapore with those same stereotypes as I happen to care for a few people around me that are Singaporeans and don’t deserve this disdain. Sorry for being human.

[Northlander]

Dont worry to much about this mimil. The americans on this forum are always critisising other countries, you know that. Americans in general also have a well known habit of being missinformed about foreign cultures, traditions and way of life. Unfortunately I dont think you will be able to change all that how much you try.

Personally I find Johnny to be one of the most interesting figures on this forum but he still personalize the most annoying thing with his nation. The lack of understanding for other people.
The fact that he compares Singapore with Nazi-germany just proves my point.

No nation is perfect. Johnny should instead of critising Singapore, look at his own because its there much of the worlds problems lays today. We are all affected by american politics. Freedom of speach is not something unique of the united states. Not at all. In fact I would say its harder for americans to give air to their opinions than people in most other western countries. No money no voice. Independent media in USA is a joke. The rights of certain groups are violated. How are arabs and muslims treated after 9-11 for example? Racism is withspread in USA today.
I laughed when I heard commentarys claiming that the newly elected governor in California proved that the american way was working. "He came with empty hands" etc etc "If can only happen in the US".
Right. Only in the US can a well known racist and half nazi get the peoples support thanks to massive financing. I agree patriotism is ok but patriotism blinding a nation to its own shortcomings is a problem. How easy is it to critisise america for an american post 9-11? Really?

BTW, Im going to Singapore this winter mimil. It was interesting hearing about it from you and I guarantee I will look further beyond those famous laws when visiting.

[TDidier]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
"(...) So.............having told you that, I now tell you this:

Eventually, Didier, they will strike the country you reside in, be it France or some other cesspool, and I hope you are not one of the casualties in the attack; non. I want you to survive, Didier. I want you to survive and be a witness. And... on that day, I want you to remember me, and what I said to you. "

In the past I knew a girl wich her father died in a bombing in Paris...
Most closer to us, in 1995, in Paris, the subway station where my girlfriend take a train to home was bombed, at the usual hour she take it, at the usual place she take it... Fortunatly her Faculty teatcher give them a court one hour later...

Do you know that an attemp to crash a jet liner one Paris has failed in 1994 ?

By loosing the first goal for "war on terror", don't you think that US administration is the first responsable of forgoting the 9-11 victims.
If I put this remark in my post ("twin towers") it was a remark for you, because you are a fervent Bush's policy supportter on those threads.

Do you really think that I need you to be horrified by 9-11 attacks?
I'm horrified too by Bush's catastrophics acts and policy wich will push us together in hell...

Didier.

[andak01]

Originally posted by Northlander
Personally I find Johnny to be one of the most interesting figures on this forum but he still personalize the most annoying thing with his nation. The lack of understanding for other people.
The fact that he compares Singapore with Nazi-germany just proves my point.

I have commented on this before. My grandmothers generation were educated in Greek and Latin as well as ancient history. This afforded them a rich store of metaphors with which to compare contemporary life with their knowledge of the past. This generation seems to have forgotten everything but the Nazis. It isn't a very robust way of understanding a multifaceted world.

Johnny, I realize you are an old fogie and not of THIS GENERATION, but you have fallen into the trap of equating any and everything with Nazi Germany. It's a very easy trap to fall into and one which seemingly goes unpunished today. The punishment is an oversimplistic understanding of the workings of the world.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by andak01
I have commented on this before. My grandmothers generation were educated in Greek and Latin as well as ancient history. This afforded them a rich store of metaphors with which to compare contemporary life with their knowledge of the past. This generation seems to have forgotten everything but the Nazis. It isn't a very robust way of understanding a multifaceted world.

Johnny, I realize you are an old fogie and not of THIS GENERATION, but you have fallen into the trap of equating any and everything with Nazi Germany. It's a very easy trap to fall into and one which seemingly goes unpunished today. The punishment is an oversimplistic understanding of the workings of the world.

Not true. Not true, Andak, my old nemesis... Sometimes, I equate some things with France and or Singapore.... Two of my favorite places...

[Johnny Yuma]

You know... I'm starting to think of you guys as my adopted children. Just look at you; Andak, Mimil, Northlander, and most recently, Didier. You're all so "cute", banging against the world and more particularly the United States (except you, Andak. You're just a traitor...); but the rest of you, demanding we pay attention to you and your individual countries and cultures; pouting and heaping derision on us, when we ignore you and say that we don't understand your cultures. Sure we understand your cultures. That's what enables me and others like me to push your buttons..... and that's when you're on your best behavior; it's just so............. "Pavlovian". I jerk your chains, you stamp and screech. I call you Nazis, you pop your cork. If I could find tickets to this kind of entertainment, I probably wouldn't be able to afford them.....

(BTW, I know you're not Nazis. If I really thought you were Nazis, I wouldn't give any of you the time of day.)

Otherwise, I love you all and I'm glad we get to share with one another on this forum.

Love,

Johnny Y.

PS Northlander, the word is not personalize, it's "personify"; it means to: embody, symbolize, exemplify, illustrate, represent, image, mirror.... Okay? Just so we're straight on understanding another culture......

[mimil]

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
You know... I'm starting to think of you guys as my adopted children. Just look at you; Andak, Mimil, Northlander, and most recently, Didier. You're all so "cute", banging against the world and more particularly the United States (except you, Andak. You're just a traitor...); but the rest of you, demanding we pay attention to you and your individual countries and cultures; pouting and heaping derision on us, when we ignore you and say that we don't understand your cultures. Sure we understand your cultures. That's what enables me and others like me to push your buttons..... and that's when you're on your best behavior; it's just so............. "Pavlovian". I jerk your chains, you stamp and screech. I call you Nazis, you pop your cork. If I could find tickets to this kind of entertainment, I probably wouldn't be able to afford them.....

(BTW, I know you're not Nazis. If I really thought you were Nazis, I wouldn't give any of you the time of day.)

Otherwise, I love you all and I'm glad we get to share with one another on this forum.

Love,

Johnny Y.

PS Northlander, the word is not personalize, it's "personify"; it means to: embody, symbolize, exemplify, illustrate, represent, image, mirror.... Okay? Just so we're straight on understanding another culture......


Johnny, your post is both disturbing and alarming. It is also barely a surprise to be honest. That you enjoy sarcasm in a private discussion is one thing. That you purposely jerk one’s chain in a forum that is meant (or at least is this what I understood, please correct me if I am wrong) for sharing opinions, creating debates and after all be a reference for quest to consult, find more information or sharpen their opinion on various subjects, is rather appalling.

That I, or any of the many different people that you with ease place in the same basket, know of your tendency to rather oppose any idea, any point of argument than create a constructive discussion does not necessary mean that it is the case for anyone who happen to read the debate.

And if any tries to defend their opinions against your tendentious allegations, you exult to see them stamp and screech. Even so I respect you, it makes you no more than a scandalmonger.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by mimil
Johnny, your post is both disturbing and alarming. It is also barely a surprise to be honest. That you enjoy sarcasm in a private discussion is one thing. That you purposely jerk one’s chain in a forum that is meant (or at least is this what I understood, please correct me if I am wrong) for sharing opinions, creating debates and after all be a reference for quest to consult, find more information or sharpen their opinion on various subjects, is rather appalling.

That I, or any of the many different people that you with ease place in the same basket, know of your tendency to rather oppose any idea, any point of argument than create a constructive discussion does not necessary mean that it is the case for anyone who happen to read the debate.

And if any tries to defend their opinions against your tendentious allegations, you exult to see them stamp and screech. Even so I respect you, it makes you no more than a scandalmonger.

A scandalmonger? My goodness.... I don't think I could have described the way you four behave, any better than the way you just did. I simply mirror your behavior. You guys are the ones constantly trying to convince us that we are racist, non-multicultural, and incapable of understanding the other countries of the world and their cultures, and that our government is evil and corrupt. (Now that's funny...)

Have you ever stopped to consider the races, languages, and religions that comprise the United States? We have almost every race, color, and creed on the planet, here. In comparison, it makes Singapore, France, and Sweden look like appartheid practicing countries. So if the United States, or government, and its people are so terrible, why then is their a constant flow of immigration; both legal and illegal? (Bear in mind that our government is a government of the people; freely elected and comprised of citizen statesmen.) And if we're so stupid and naive, how then are we able to dominant the world economy so easily? Would that not presuppose that the rest of the world is even more stupid? Your problem with the United States stems from petty jealousy; plain and simple.

[mimil]

I am happily surprised to read your reply. I was expecting something a lot sharper and a lot more incisive :D.

I don’t know where you got this idea of the jealousy one can have of the US. Maybe you see various people post, questions and opinions as one and as offensive to something you seem to cherish a lot, your country. Personally, I don’t see the US as a role model far from it, I believe most of their power comes from their global policies and I fell a lot of the world news is more than proving it. I perfectly understand that you don’t agree. I also believe the US values work in the large sense, and admire them a lot for this; you could not say exactly the same of the French or the Malay just to name a few (No offence to anyone, this is a personal assessment).

Beside, what I mostly criticize about the US is not exactly towards its inhabitants but more towards its elite.

Moreover, I see the US as needing an enemy as a driving force. The cold war being over, they suddenly were alone on top of the food chain. Rather than currying the wounds, they found a new enemy in no time and jumped back into conflicts. I feel that their need for a supreme cause is a danger for other countries as their thirst of domination seems to be endless. Finally, I feel that this country is to carry most of the criticism because of their very position. If they are in need for a greater cause, they should try not only to be a world leader but also a role model.

[Northlander]

Johnny, obviously the united states of america is a complex nation.
Im perfectly aware of the positive things about USA as well. Recently I have started to realize that maybe some of you guys dont know the magnitude of americanization we have, at least here in scandinavia. The thing is that Im really part of your culture wether I like it or not and I have been since birth. And the thing is that I dont object to that either. Im raised on the same TV shows, music and food as any american my age. Im as aware of the similarities as I am of the few differences there are between us. You would see what I mean after 1 hour in stockholm. Life is very similar. We tend to think we have a slightly better life and you think the opposite, not surprisingly. But its more or less the same.

But considering the forum there is no need praising your nation too much.
Many of you are far too sure of your own superiority as it is and its often because of missinformation.

I could easily come up with a list of thousands of things I admire and like about USA or americans. If it would be hard it would be because most parts of that whole lifestyle or culture or what you want to call it are my own. If you asked me if the TV program I just saw were in english or swedish I probably couldnt tell. Personally Im far more connected to lets say New York than any smaller city up north in sweden where life and people are very different. I could find my way around in NY, speak to people who laugh at the same jokes, do the same kind of work I do, likes the same sports etc, I could blend in and feel very much at home. Its the small things that makes it. They wouldnt need to explain the special thing with the Yankees meeting Red Sox for example, hell I wouldnt probably even speak about it because its so obvious what that is all about. You get the picture. In no other country could that happen when I visit and mostly not even in my own.
In Italy I can go for hours without finding anyone that speaks english.

What we are debating as europeans vs americans here comes down to a few issues. American foreign politics as the biggest one. There it can be harsh language sometimes.
What I am trying to say I guess is that OF COURSE not everything about USA is terrible. Not the people, not the system, well the government Im not so sure about but anyway, not everything is bad. I really thought that went without a saying but maybe it didnt.

Nothing in my critisism of your warfare and politics are personal.
Its not even anti-american really. You could be cubans or germans for all I care, Im against the total lack of respect for different cultures and sovereignity. I were much more hostile in my views towards the soviets when they were around btw. Its not a left right issue either.
Things are not black or white and after half a lifetime of american influence I KNOW you have a tendency to see things that way.
Generally speaking of course.
I refer from commenting on your "dominating the world economy so easily" this time because I feel it would destroy the friendly tone in this post.

[Mil]

Posted by Northlander:

American foreign politics as the biggest one.


What is it you don't like about American foreign politics?


There it can be harsh language sometimes.


Why? If anything American foreign policy has always been very kind to the Democratic world and especially Europe.

[Mil]

Posted by mimil:


Moreover, I see the US as needing an enemy as a driving force.

Man or man. This one of the most garbage statements I heard on this forum as of yet. US is not a dictatorship but a Democracy and does not need outside enemies to function.


The cold war being over, they suddenly were alone on top of the food chain. Rather than currying the wounds, they found a new enemy in no time and jumped back into conflicts.


Garbage again.



I feel that their need for a supreme cause is a danger for other countries as their thirst of domination seems to be endless.


Garbage again. What domination? America does not need to enforce its image on the world it's not a dictatorship.


Finally, I feel that this country is to carry most of the criticism because of their very position.


That's true. A political, economic and military giant that US is right away implies responsibilities. US is the #1 political and economic negotiator on the world stage and is involved as a party in almost anything happening in the world and is expected as such. Given such a huge effect that US has and a role assigned in this world of course it is very susceptible to criticism.


If they are in need for a greater cause, they should try not only to be a world leader but also a role model.


US is a role model to the rest of the world. Let me ask you - what do you expect from the United States personally?

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by mimil
I am happily surprised to read your reply. I was expecting something a lot sharper and a lot more incisive :D.

I wrote, erased, re-wrote, erased, several times, before I finally sent the reply. So you are correct, you should have expected something a lot sharper, but I retracted my incisors....


I don’t know where you got this idea of the jealousy one can have of the US. Maybe you see various people post, questions and opinions as one and as offensive to something you seem to cherish a lot, your country.

I'll address this, momentarilly.


Personally, I don’t see the US as a role model far from it, I believe most of their power comes from their global policies and I fell a lot of the world news is more than proving it. I perfectly understand that you don’t agree. I also believe the US values work in the large sense, and admire them a lot for this; you could not say exactly the same of the French or the Malay just to name a few (No offence to anyone, this is a personal assessment).

I don't think we're a role model. The problem is that there are some people, in Europe and other countries, that feel as though they are losing their cultural identity, because their people are adopting what they think of as "American ways". Some of the envy stems from their own culture having stagnated to the point that their young people adopt the slang, music, and clothing styles of Americans, along with the fast food issue. However, if one would just step back a bit and take the long view of what is happening, it would become apparent that it is not simply a matter of adopting "American ways"; it's a global economy and the lines have becomed blurred over what is domestic and what is "American". The reason the United States gets the blame is because they/we are a large presence in that global market. Should I blame the Jamaicans because so many Americans are walking around with dredlocks and professing Rhastafarianism?

Beside, what I mostly criticize about the US is not exactly towards its inhabitants but more towards its elite.

Which elites are you talking about? Political elites? Wealthy elites? Famous elites? Criminal elites?

It's a funny thing about being considered an "elite", in the U.S. You don't necessarily have to be rich to be an "elite"; but it doesn't hurt. You can be famous, and poor, and be considered an elite. But the funniest thing about being an elite is that anyone can become one. You don't have to be born to it... This is not a stratified society....

By the way, this is where I get the greatest sense of envy about Americans, from others around the world; the idea of wealthy Americans, and why we just don't hand out money, as though it's something we're obliged to do, even if you don't do anything to earn it yourself....

Moreover, I see the US as needing an enemy as a driving force. The cold war being over, they suddenly were alone on top of the food chain. Rather than currying the wounds, they found a new enemy in no time and jumped back into conflicts.

Next you're going to tell me that it was a Mossad plot to fly two jet liners into the World Trade Center? Better yet, that it never happened at all and a worldwide network of terrorists is not commited to the destruction of the United States....


I feel that their need for a supreme cause is a danger for other countries as their thirst of domination seems to be endless. Finally, I feel that this country is to carry most of the criticism because of their very position. If they are in need for a greater cause, they should try not only to be a world leader but also a role model.

Okay. How about this. Suppose Singapore is invaded by the Chinese? What say we Americans just sit on our hands and say, "I say....... liberating Singapore from the Chinese might be viewed as a need for a supreme cause and as a danger to other countries. They might think we have a thirst for domination, Mildred, what say we just stay home and have tea and biscuits on the lawn today? We'll just be a role model...."

[mimil]

War on terror
Public enemy number 1
The enemy within
You are either with us or against us
...
There is so many such US made sentences. The word enemy has to be used and misused more than anywhere else. But you are going to tell me, its because they ARE the enemy...... Delenda est carthago.

As for domination, take a map of the world, put a small light on every American military bases. Look how uniform it is.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by mimil
War on terror
Public enemy number 1
The enemy within
You are either with us or against us
...
There is so many such US made sentences. The word enemy has to be used and misused more than anywhere else. But you are going to tell me, its because they ARE the enemy...... Delenda est carthago.

As for domination, take a map of the world, put a small light on every American military bases. Look how uniform it is.

... and you see this as a threat? To what? To you? To whom, exactly? You are afraid of Americans? You think we mean you ill? What is so intimidating about us having military bases around the world? If I were incapable of defending myself, I would be relieved to have an American base nearby, if I were an ally. If not, then yes, I might be a bit, how should I say; nervous?

[mimil]

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
... and you see this as a threat? To what? To you? To whom, exactly? You are afraid of Americans? You think we mean you ill? What is so intimidating about us having military bases around the world? If I were incapable of defending myself, I would be relieved to have an American base nearby, if I were an ally. If not, then yes, I might be a bit, how should I say; nervous?

Doesn't it enables the US to chose his allies and enemies? Doesn't it prevents countries from having their own point of view of the issue? Sounds more like you'd better behave as we say you should rather than anything else. Talk about free will ....

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by mimil
Doesn't it enables the US to chose his allies and enemies? Doesn't it prevents countries from having their own point of view of the issue? Sounds more like you'd better behave as we say you should rather than anything else. Talk about free will ....

No. We don't tell people to become our enemies, Mimil. We don't want enemies; just look at the Soviet Union, or what was the Soviet Union. We were allies, during WWII. Then, we became sworn enemies for fifty years, but today, they're one of America's friends, again. The plain and simple truth is that peoples and governments choose to become enemies of the United States, either through word or deed. For example, if you come out and say, "Death to America! We will destroy the Great Satan!", rest assured, you are going to get attention that you may not like...

[mimil]

Yalta February, 1945:

Winston Churchill: "The peace of the world depends upon the lasting friendship of the three great powers, but His Majesty's Government feel we should be putting ourselves in a false position if we put ourselves in the position of trying to rule the world when our desire is to serve the world and preserve it from a renewal of the frightful horrors which have fallen upon the mass of its inhabitants. We should make a broad submission to the opinion of the world within the limits stated. We should have the right to state our case against any case stated by the Chinese, for instance, in the case of Hongkong. There is no question that we could not be required to give back Hong Kong to the Chinese if we did not feel that was the right thing to do. On the other hand, I feel it would be wrong if China did not have an opportunity to state its case fully. In the same way, if Egypt raises a question against the British affecting the Suez Canal, as has been suggested, I would submit to all the procedure outlined in this statement. colleagues on the Security Council."


Joseph Stalin: "I would like to have this document to study because it is difficult on hearing it read to come to any conclusion. I think that the Dumbarton Oaks decisions have, as an objective, not only to secure to every nation the right to express its opinion, but if any nation should raise a question about some important matter, it raises the question in order to get a decision in the matter. I am sure none of those present would dispute the right of every member of the Assembly to express his opinion. "Mr. Churchill thinks that China, if it raised the question of Hong Kong, would be content only with expressing opinion here. He may be mistaken. China will demand a decision in the matter and so would Egypt. Egypt will not have much pleasure in expressing an opinion that the Suez Canal should be returned to Egypt, but would demand a decision on the matter. Therefore, the matter is much more serious than merely expressing an opinion. Also, I would like to ask Mr. Churchill to name the power which may intend to dominate the world. I am sure Great Britain does not want to dominate the world. So one is removed from suspicion. I am sure the United States does not wish to do so, so another is excluded from the powers having intentions to dominate the world. "

Winston Churchill: "May I answer?"

Joseph Stalin: "In a minute. When will the great powers accept the provisions that would absolve them from the charge that they intend to dominate the world ? I will study the document. At this
time it is not very clear to me. I think it is a more serious question than the right of a power to express its intentions or the desire of some power to dominate the world."

Winston Churchill: "I know that under the leaders of the three powers as represented here we may feel safe. But these leaders may not live forever. In ten years' time we may disappear. A new generation will come which did not experience the horrors of war and may probably forget what we have gone through. We would like to secure the peace for at least fifty years. We have now to build up such a status, such a plan, that we can put as many obstacles as possible to the coming generation quarreling among themselves."

Franklin D. Roosevelt died in April, 1945

Potsdam July, 1945:

Just before Postdam, Churchill lost the elections in England.

Unlike at Yalta, the Allies were no longer willing to look sympathetically at Stalin's demands. With Germany defeated and the USA now possessing the Atom Bomb, the Allies no longer needed the cooperation of the Soviet Union. Stalin felt betrayed by this change of attitude. He believed that the death of Franklin D. Roosevelt was an important factor in this.

At Yalta, Stalin had promised to enter the war with Japan within three months of the defeat of Germany. Originally, it was planned that the conference at Potsdam would confirm this decision. However, since the previous meeting the USA had successfully tested the Atom Bomb. Truman's advisers were urging him to use this bomb on Japan. They also pointed out that its employment would avoid an invasion of Japan and thus save the lives of up to two million American troops.

You needn't wait for another generation ...

If you are needed you and if you are powerfull you are a friend. If you are powerfull, no longer needed you are enemy no matter your goals.

[elke]

I don't think that we can project relationships between individuals to relationships among nations. Individuals have far more freedom to choose specific actions and act on their emotions and principles. Yet even with individuals, majority of our contacts are based on "I'll scratch your back, and you scratch mine" - especially, in the business world.

The larger the group represented by a person, the more constrained his/her actions. For example, once a person has a family, their dealings with others become less "friendship-based" - one can no longer go and work for a friend's or relative's company "to help out", because now this person has to think about his/her childern's food, shelter, college, etc.

When we get to the national level, "friendship" - as it is understood among individuals - is well-nigh impossible! There are too many constraints to it. This doesn't mean, however, that the relationship has to be one of enemies, or at least, not of military enemies. The concept of "enemy" presupposes a severe dislike. That dislike doesn't have to be there. IMO, the attainable and desirable goal in relationships between countries should be healthy competition, complete with mutual respect, honor, and courtesy. Competition in life quality and quantity, ability to clean up the messes human technological advance has made on this Planet, scientific and artistic endeavors, and commercial prowess.

I don't think US is - or was - "looking for an enemy" in the '90s. There are plenty of those around: from Hussein, to Osama. And no, Europe is not one of the enemies - Europe is one of the entities, with whom competition has degenerated somewhat, but it's still competition. As it is with much of Asia - China, for instance.

Let's not get hysterical here. Let's not become so paranoid, as to break apart alliances still required to defeat the REAL enemies - and there are many of those, - from specific people, to concepts, to some of our own actions.

...and let's not put any one nation on the pedestal, since the higher it is, the further it falls. Instead, let's be realistic, and allow that people are people, - with the wonderful, terrible, colorful mixture of good, bad, and indifferent inside them!

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by mimil

If you are needed you and if you are powerfull you are a friend. If you are powerfull, no longer needed you are enemy no matter your goals.

Britain is powerful and a friend. Britain is powerful but not really needed by the United States; but they're not an enemy of the United States.

What was your point?

[mimil]

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
Britain is powerful and a friend. Britain is powerful but not really needed by the United States; but they're not an enemy of the United States.

What was your point?

Johnny please look further than words.
Britain is not needed? Mr. Blair put his career on the line to back the US in recent events. A providential Portuguese president was needed to add up to the lonely duo in the Azores. With all US might and influence a list of 35 countries only could find to support the war in Iraq. Something was amiss in these events and you say that Britain was not needed. I don't even know why I am arguing with you; you'll probably find something to say about my post, probably some lack of eloquence or pin point precision in my facts. I am not merely condemning everything for the simple sake of doing so. If Islam is the mighty evil, and if destruction shall be thrown on more than one billion of them, the issue concerns not Israel alone nor the US alone but an awful lot of us. And if the easy amalgam of Islam and terrorism is to be made, they might well end up being a real threat and enemy. We, as westerners, have a lot more to do with this quarrel than we would like to admit. And instead of taking our responsibilities, we slowly diabolize Islam.

[mimil]

Elke,

I more than agree with on most of your development. However, don’t you find sad the assessment that to the level of individuals we are to behave in the same way? Are our relations simply meant to be business like? Isn’t that due a distortion provoked by the overuse of capitalism?

Moreover, isn’t it the failure of a system to have to strive for college money, healthcare, car, bigger house, holidays and whatever else to the expense of our relatives and relations? Specially when this system is the most wealthy of them all.

To go back closer to the issue of discussion, don’t you find that Afghanistan was a providential target and a welcomed scapegoat to bare the responsibility for 9/11. The Country had been at war and devastated for over 20 years with little wide coverage of the events, suddenly it was in front page of all newspaper.

Moreover the US has a huge war machine ready 24/7. The CIA is the biggest such like organization. Some of the hot shot there have mighty power, a power which is worthless without an enemy. How could the budget of the CIA and the US army be justified if all was at peace?

The US decided not to demobilized after WWII, and to gain public agreement, they need to feel threaten, they need to be on alert, they need to galvanize patriotism and sad to say but they need some kind of enemy.

And hopefully, you could do more than prove me wrong, you could convince me that I am.

[Mil]

Posted by Mimil:

The US decided not to demobilized after WWII, and to gain public agreement, they need to feel threaten, they need to be on alert, they need to galvanize patriotism and sad to say but they need some kind of enemy.


Little history do we know. Follow WWI US actually completely demobilized where by the beggining of WWII in 1939 it had only around 400 tanks. After WWII the US administration has understood that demobilizing and isolating again would be a mistake hence they would be dragged in into yet another war. As it happened they were right. There was the Cold War and all those post-colonial conflicts.

[mimil]

Originally posted by Mil
Posted by Mimil:

Little history do we know. Follow WWI US actually completely demobilized where by the beggining of WWII in 1939 it had only around 400 tanks. After WWII the US administration has understood that demobilizing and isolating again would be a mistake hence they would be dragged in into yet another war.

True enough, but out of point.

[Mil]

Posted by Mimil:

True enough, but out of point.


Not really. US has contained and protected the free world since WWI on all the fronts including political, economic and of course military. In the Middle East for example the United States since the 1950s or post the Sinai crisis, and especially post 1970 or the complete British withdrawal from Arabia, was and still is the main guaranteer of Status Quo in the region in political and especially in military terms.

Following the War in the Balkans, Northern Ireland Peace Process and the fall of the Soviet Union, as it turned out, US is also the main political and military guaranteer of Europe post Cold War. During the Cold War it was the main guaranteer of European political, military, and economic security.


Following Korea and Vietnam US was the political and military guaranteer in Asia. It was the United States that made Japan as it exists right now - an economic superpower. It was the United States that was the main fascilitator of China's entrance into the world stage as an economic power.

United States has being a guaranteer of Latin American political and military security since 1820s or since the Monroe Doctrine. US is still the main guaranteer of Latin America on political, economic and military stage.

The only continent that was overlooked is the continental Africa, outside of the Arab world. However, the United States is slowly getting there.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by mimil
Johnny please look further than words.
Britain is not needed? Mr. Blair put his career on the line to back the US in recent events. A providential Portuguese president was needed to add up to the lonely duo in the Azores. With all US might and influence a list of 35 countries only could find to support the war in Iraq. Something was amiss in these events and you say that Britain was not needed. I don't even know why I am arguing with you; you'll probably find something to say about my post, probably some lack of eloquence or pin point precision in my facts. I am not merely condemning everything for the simple sake of doing so. If Islam is the mighty evil, and if destruction shall be thrown on more than one billion of them, the issue concerns not Israel alone nor the US alone but an awful lot of us. And if the easy amalgam of Islam and terrorism is to be made, they might well end up being a real threat and enemy. We, as westerners, have a lot more to do with this quarrel than we would like to admit. And instead of taking our responsibilities, we slowly diabolize Islam.

I still don't see any Mormons straping bombs to themselves and detonating in cafes, buses, and discotheques. For that matter, I don't see any other religous sect doing such things. Why would reasonable people not make a connection between Islam and terrorist acts. Twern't Seventh Day Adventists flying those jets into the World Trade Center; nor Amish, nor Buddhists, nor Zoroastrians, nor Santeria practioners, nor Rhastafarians, nor Taoists, nor Wiccans, no.... It's not the parishioners of Saint Alfonso dressing their babies up like suicide bombers and driving them down to Sears to have their portraits taken. They were friggin' Muslims, Mimil.... stub out the fattie....

[elke]

The reason this capitalist system is the wealthiest, is precisely the fact that the relationships are business-like. It is wealthier because it is more productive, because it has harnessed the natural tendencies of human beings, and is using them to create the wealth.

There are real, tangible improvements to the condition of individuals who are not as adept at creating such wealth: for example, universal primary education is now prevalent in the Western world, with resounding success! The literacy rates have been steadily rising, and are now approaching 100%. What that does, in turn, is improve the society's capacity to produce wealth, as well as share it more equitably among its producers.

On the social front, in the US, there are healthcare programs now for otherwise uninsured, that weren't available before; there are welfare programs that help overcome temporary difficulties of single mothers with children; there are social security programs, that help out the elderly...

Are there still major problems? Of corse, there are! But it doesn't look hopeless, in the longrun: it is indeed "getting better all the time."

Now to the topic at hand: US and its foreign policies. Americans tend to be intraverted, not extraverted. What I mean, is that Americans tend to look inward: their work or family woes, local scandals, economic development in the country, taxation, civil rights issues, etc. The summer before 9/11, for example, most of the news headlines - and street conversations one heard - had to do with Gary Condit and his hapless affair with a young woman who was missing, presumed dead. Americans turn outwards, to the foreign policy, when they feel threatened, when they feel that they cannot freely pursue their primary interests, such as mentioned above. In order to confront that threat, they are willing to pay to maintain the military and the CIA; and in times when they feel an imminent danger emanating from the outside, foreign policy becomes an important political topic.

Unlike in much of the world, one cannot freely separate "the people" from "the government" in the US, simply because the government does represent the wishes of the majority. Of the majority that votes. However, it's the best that can be done: if someone doesn't care enough about his/her favorite issues to vote, then that vote will not be heard; - but then, they must be satisfied, even while grumbling possibly, with the way things are going: otherwise, they'd have voted! Therefore, the government of the US has the same primary interests at heart: the economy, the taxes, the healthcare, and education. All internal issues. It's the dictatorships that can create and use an enemy to justify their existence. True Democracies and Republics cannot! Because with that First Amendment - Freedom of Speech and Press - any hanky-panky would come out faster than the speed of light! It's one of those - seemingly negative - interrelationships between humans in the free world: the pitting of the Press against the Establishment - which is actually one of the primary factors in preventing anyone from acquiring absolute power, and especially the power over the minds of the population.