Is Saddam Hussein dead?

[L@mplighterM]

I think Hussein is dead!

I watched the clip of his speech several times and there’s no question that there’s at least one splice in it (The splice is obvious). The fact that it was a spliced video indicates that it was prerecorded and not a live transmission.

Why would Hussein issue an edited video shortly after the US targeted him?

It sure seems to me like he’s dead or injured to the point where he can’t make an appearance.

[cerulean]

If the White House knows, they aren't saying, but maybe they are leaning towards thinking it is him:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/20/sprj.irq.intel/index.html
No definitive judgment on body double possibility
Thursday, March 20, 2003 Posted: 6:44 PM EST (2344 GMT)
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- U.S. officials are increasingly convinced the man seen on Iraqi TV following Wednesday's initial strikes on Baghdad was indeed Saddam Hussein, not a body double as some first suggested.

Officials say technical analysis suggests the voice and inflection and movements of the mouth may be the same as Saddam Hussein from past tapes -- though there is not yet a definitive U.S. judgment. . . .

However, I also read somewhere the US intelligence knows Saddam prerecorded several tapes prior to the war's start. So who knows? If Saddam stays locked in his bunker, though, it will be tough for him to lead.

[localbrew]

I hope he is alive, badly burned and slowly dying a painful death.

[andak01]

Originally posted by localbrew
I hope he is alive, badly burned and slowly dying a painful death.

The slower his death is, the more Iraqis will die. But then who cares if they all die, as long as they get democracy?

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
The slower his death is, the more Iraqis will die. But then who cares if they all die, as long as they get democracy?
That period of time when you might possibly have been making reasonable contributions to this board certainly seems to have passed.

[localbrew]

I hope he meant the more Iraqi soldiers (using the term loosely) will die. Unless they surrender of course.

But for Saddam and his sons, I hope they are like burnt pigs roasting with no pain killer medicine available.

[elke]

I, frankly, do not care how he dies, or indeed even if he dies, so long as he is gone from power as soon as possible - and if alive, faces criminal charges.

I think they should make a poster of that video of an Iraqi man in traditional garb, beating Saddam's half-removed likeness with his shoe - and plaster it everywhere. The satisfied look on that man's face, as he puts his shoe back on after the act, is priceless!

[andak01]

Originally posted by localbrew
I hope he meant the more Iraqi soldiers (using the term loosely) will die. Unless they surrender of course.

But for Saddam and his sons, I hope they are like burnt pigs roasting with no pain killer medicine available.

That is the future that awaits all arrogant men.

Surah Nisaah 4:56
Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Those who would post pictures of themselves on a mosque or call for oppression will be called to task on the day of Judgement.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by elke
I, frankly, do not care how he dies, or indeed even if he dies, so long as he is gone from power as soon as possible - and if alive, faces criminal charges.

I think they should make a poster of that video of an Iraqi man in traditional garb, beating Saddam's half-removed likeness with his shoe - and plaster it everywhere. The satisfied look on that man's face, as he puts his shoe back on after the act, is priceless! LOL! That has to be one of the best photos to come out of Iraq this week. I laugh every time they replay the incident.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by elke
I, frankly, do not care how he dies, or indeed even if he dies, so long as he is gone from power as soon as possible - and if alive, faces criminal charges.

I think they should make a poster of that video of an Iraqi man in traditional garb, beating Saddam's half-removed likeness with his shoe - and plaster it everywhere. The satisfied look on that man's face, as he puts his shoe back on after the act, is priceless!

I wonder if that man was Jewish. Sounds like he was pounding Haman, that other Babylonian Amalekite.

This weeks parsha amd Haftorah is for Shabbat Purim and talks about the destruction of the first temple and the Babylonian exile. How wonderful that Babylon is destroyed this week.

[euphoria]

Can I get a link to this video you're mentioning? I seem to have missed it, and it sounds classic.

[elke]

Originally posted by euphoria
Can I get a link to this video you're mentioning? I seem to have missed it, and it sounds classic.

They run it on the cable news periodically, albeit not nearly enough for my taste ;). I'll see if it's possible to get it on the internet...

[elke]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I wonder if that man was Jewish. Sounds like he was pounding Haman, that other Babylonian Amalekite.

This weeks parsha amd Haftorah is for Shabbat Purim and talks about the destruction of the first temple and the Babylonian exile. How wonderful that Babylon is destroyed this week.

You mean, another "Anuim", or another lost tribe? :p

[Mediocrates]

oh yes - ;)

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I wonder if that man was Jewish. Sounds like he was pounding Haman, that other Babylonian Amalekite.

This weeks parsha amd Haftorah is for Shabbat Purim and talks about the destruction of the first temple and the Babylonian exile. How wonderful that Babylon is destroyed this week.


Privately, friends and I have been talking about us going to Bablyon, while the rest of the world are just going to "babble on" about what is right and wrong/positive and negative about it. I have alluded to the historic significance of this point, several times; specifically, at a time when people characterize one for the other.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by elke
You mean, another "Anuim", or another lost tribe? :p

Tell me about "Anuim", please.

[elke]

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
Tell me about "Anuim", please.

"Anuim" are the remnants of Jewish communities in various countries that either expelled or otherwise disposed of their Jews. They have retained some of their Judaism secretly, even though they have ostensibly converted, usually to Christianity.

Relatively large communities of these people are in existence in Spain (which expelled its non-converted Jews in 1492, and whose property was used to launch Christopher Columbus' expedition to "India"); and in Portugal. The name that I grew up with, for these people - and what you might be familiar with - is "Marranos". Since "Marrano" apparently, means "pig" in Spanish, they understandably do not particularly like that term. Hence - "Anouim", or "crypto-Jews" :)

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by elke
"Anuim" are the remnants of Jewish communities in various countries that either expelled or otherwise disposed of their Jews. They have retained some of their Judaism secretly, even though they have ostensibly converted, usually to Christianity.

Relatively large communities of these people are in existence in Spain (which expelled its non-converted Jews in 1492, and whose property was used to launch Christopher Columbus' expedition to "India"); and in Portugal. The name that I grew up with, for these people - and what you might be familiar with - is "Marranos". Since "Marrano" apparently, means "pig" in Spanish, they understandably do not particularly like that term. Hence - "Anouim", or "crypto-Jews" :)

I am of Native American extraction; Cherokee. I have always wondered about the lost tribes and how it related to some of these same questions.

Of particular interest was a statement made some 120 years after the 1492 expedition by Columbus, by Portuguese traveler Antonio Montezinos :

"It was a thrilling journey I took in South America. Now that I am back in Amsterdam, I must share with you some incredible news. There is a Jewish Indian tribe living beyond the mountain passes of the Andes. Indeed, I myself heard them recite the She'ma (the expression of the Jewish faith) and saw them observe the Jewish rituals."

Your thoughts?

[elke]

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
I am of Native American extraction; Cherokee. I have always wondered about the lost tribes and how it related to some of these same questions.

That's cool! :cool: How much: I mean, what's the percentage for you? Are you involved at all in the tribal life? Just curious: it's not too often that one meets a real Native American - especially on IsraelForum ;)

Of particular interest was a statement made some 120 years after the 1492 expedition by Columbus, by Portuguese traveler Antonio Montezinos :


Your thoughts?

Personally, I would welcome any and all cultural sisters and brothers we can find. I think it's fascinating, and very educational to know more about the lost tribes: they can help explain and deepen our understanding of who we are and how we got here. Your quote certainly gave some "grist for my mill": I will spend some happy hours exploring this possibility :)

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by elke
How much: I mean, what's the percentage for you?

I’m a sixteenth Cherokee. The rest is Irish (Setter). :D It makes me eligible for tribal membership. Relatives have encouraged me to join, but I see no benefit in doing so, other than “bragging rights” and being able to flip out the to card back it up. I guess I could go back to the Carolinas and open a casino.......

As far as being a lost tribe, I don’t think I am. I know precisely where I am; lat. and long. :D

My grandmother believed it, fervently, and would often tell me that, when I was young. I just placated her –respectfully- and went about my own business.

I know that the Mormans believe that we Indians (I prefer the term; the white guys are the ones with the problem) are “remnants” of a people called the Lamenites (sp.); an evil tribe that wiped out their lighter skinned relatives, the Nephites, who were also here in the Americas. I have not enough evidence to substantiate this. Having said that I suppose it is possible that an ancient people could have made a voyage across the ocean, early on, since they recently found ancient Chinese anchors off the Pacific coast. It lends credence that trade may have been in place between Asia and the. Still, I hold my conclusion sub-judice; on the back-burner.

Do you know something about the subject that might convince me?

[cerulean]

According to this article from the UK, which is purportedly based on British intelligence, Iraqi government officials are desperately seeking a Russian surgeon.

On the other hand, in general the Sun tends to the sensationalistic side, and I have no idea if this report is accurate. (I guess that's a given.)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003131720,00.html
EXCLUSIVE

SOS for Saddam surgeon
By DAVID WOODING
Whitehall Editor

SADDAM Hussein’s henchmen last night pleaded with Russia to find them a top surgeon to save the tyrant’s life.

They sent an SOS to Moscow as their leader lay badly wounded at a secret hideaway in Baghdad.

Saddam is believed to have suffered abdominal injuries when cruise missiles scored a direct hit on his bunker on Day One of the war last Thursday.

British intelligence chiefs say that he was hauled from the rubble and whisked away in an ambulance hours after the sudden strike that launched Operation Iraqi Freedom.

They are convinced he underwent a major operation and a blood transfusion. And at one stage thought he may be dead.

But last night experts at GCHQ listening station in Cheltenham intercepted a message which suggests he is still alive — but in need of treatment the Iraqis cannot provide. . . .

In the call picked up by GCHQ, the victim is said to have suffered third-degree burns, crushed abdomen and trauma — hallmarks of a bomb attack. . . .


I can't imagine a Russian surgeon idiotic enough to head down there right now. I tend to think Iraqi officials might be similar to ancient Egyptians - unsuccessful physicians were executed. But who knows, maybe for the right price. One would think there would be at least a few Arab surgeons who were suitable.

[cerulean]

Saddam gave a speech Monday - or at least it was played Monday.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,920757,00.html
Monday March 24, 2003

Saddam Hussein today pledged victory over the "enemies of God" and urged Iraqis to "hit the enemies hard" in an address broadcast on Iraqi state television.
Billed as a "historic" address, it was not known if the speech was pre-recorded, or if it really was the Iraqi leader. Against a backdrop of the Iraqi flag and the national eagle ensign, he read from a notepad.

***
I read elsewhere that Christiane Amanpour says it's definitely Saddam. However, there's still no indication what day this was recorded. The content is generic. It would have been very easy for Saddam to have held up a web site printout, or something, indicating it was March 24, 2003, but he chose not to do that. Maybe because he did not do this speech on March 24, but some days ago in preparation.

EDIT: I thought about this. Saddam, even if alive, or his aids, probably can't use the Internet without attracting US attention. I bet US intelligence is checking all Internet access in Baghdad. But, at any rate, Saddam could have said something that showed what day it was. But he didn't.

[cerulean]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81962,00.html
This FoxNews article indicates that senior US officials believe the speech is old. There are jump marks, indicating it's been edited.

It's hard to believe that maybe one of the most important Iraqi military positions right now is being a good video editor. I wonder if they use Macintosh.

[Johnny Yuma]

The news is reporting orders have been given to use chemical weapons when the troops get within a certain distance of Bagdhad, supposedly issued by Saddam; AKA Alladin Sane, AKA "The King Of Terror".

[cerulean]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/24/sprj.irq.intelligence/index.html
U.S. doubts Saddam's taped speech is fresh

The article does not say whether Saddam is known to be alive or dead, or whether his sons are known to be alive or dead.

As everyone knows, Tariq Aziz unfortunately appeared alive today in public at a news conference, claiming Saddam is fine and in control.

=======
I'm going with the hope that US intelligence knows more than they are telling us.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by cerulean
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/24/sprj.irq.intelligence/index.html
U.S. doubts Saddam's taped speech is fresh

The article does not say whether Saddam is known to be alive or dead, or whether his sons are known to be alive or dead.

As everyone knows, Tariq Aziz unfortunately appeared alive today in public at a news conference, claiming Saddam is fine and in control.

=======
I'm going with the hope that US intelligence knows more than they are telling us.
Sayin' it don't make it so. Considering the integrity of this bunch ...

Let's say Saddam is in rough shape. Where is he? Who's calling the shots? How long would the Iraqi's be able to pull off a "Weekend at Bernie's"?

[cerulean]

Originally posted by JustPat
Sayin' it don't make it so. Considering the integrity of this bunch ...

Let's say Saddam is in rough shape. Where is he? Who's calling the shots? How long would the Iraqi's be able to pull off a "Weekend at Bernie's"?

Saddam nurtured a hierarchy of bloodthirsty officials. I assume this is what we are seeing in action. Surely at some point, though, there will be infighting if it becomes clear no one's in charge. This almost sounds like something that would make a good computer simulation.

*********
More on the idea that Saddam is injured, and being treated in a bunker. This article is from USA Today. I hope they didn't just copy the Sun article I mentioned earlier.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-03-24-saddam-health-usat_x.htm

KUWAIT CITY — CIA operatives and Army commandos who are hunting for Saddam Hussein believe that the Iraqi leader could be in a Baghdad bunker receiving medical attention from military doctors, U.S. intelligence and military sources said Monday.

"We know we hit him. We know he was wounded" Thursday in a missile and bomb attack on a compound south of Baghdad, said a U.S. intelligence official involved in tracking Saddam. "We also believe he hasn't left Baghdad." . . .
Some of the bunkers are 300 feet underground and are beneath mosques, hospitals and schools to keep coalition forces from bombing them, U.S. intelligence officials said.

[cerulean]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31718

OPERATION: IRAQI FREEDOM
Saddam's 'double' trouble
Opposition leader claims Hussein died of cancer in '99

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: March 26, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

The Bush administration has concluded the U.S.-led "decapitation" attack failed to take out Saddam Hussein, but an Iraqi opposition leader claims a higher authority already got the job done.

Moslem al-Asadi, a doctor living in exile in Iran, said he believes the real Saddam died in 1999 from cancer.

"The real Saddam died because he had cancer of the lymph nodes, and since his death in 1999 they're just showing his doubles," he told the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera.

In a plot reminiscent of the Hollywood tale of a body double subbing for an incapacitated American president titled "Dave," al-Asadi claims Saddam's sons, his first wife and Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz run a scheme to keep the truth under wraps using three doubles. Al-Asadi alleges Saddam's younger son, Qusay, actually holds presidential authority. . . .

I think this theory is a little wacky. Of course, given how nutty everything is nowadays, maybe it will end up being true. Maybe some tyrannical country in the future will have a computer-generated image of a president, sort of like William Gibson's novel Idoru, which is about a computer-generated pop star.

[cerulean]

Article says Saddam is alive, Qusay (his vicious son) may be dead.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82380,00.html

U.S. Officials Believe Saddam Is in Control of Iraqi Military

Thursday, March 27, 2003

WASHINGTON — U.S. government officials have all but concluded that Saddam Hussein is in control of his military and issuing orders as he moves in and around Baghdad through a series of underground catacombs that lead from one bunker to the next.

Based on intelligence reports, analysts told Fox News on Thursday that it is obvious and logical that Saddam is preparing for the battle of Baghdad, and that they are beginning to see large groupings of forces in Baghdad. One source said there are thousands of Iraqi troops taking positions in and around the city, even digging trenches downtown.

While this is under way, analysts looking at videotapes of Saddam have concluded that they were pre-recorded television appearances taped very shortly before each broadcast, rather than days and weeks in advance.

Officials say the prevailing question now is where is Saddam's younger son, 36-year-old Qusay Hussein.

Qusay is supposed to be in charge of Saddam's most loyal and fanatical fighters, the Republican Guard. When Saddam announced just before the war began that he was going to divvy up the country into four different command quadrants, Qusay was placed in charge of the western part of Iraq, which would be critically important if the Iraqis were to launch some sort of attack against Israel or another neighbor.

At this point, U.S. government officials said they have not been able to find a great deal of intelligence information to say that Qusay is in charge. One analyst said that after the bombing of Saddam's bunker, there were witness reports that someone had been carried out on a stretcher.

"That banged-up body that went out on a gurney may have been Qusay … we hope," the analyst told Fox News.

One reason officials say they believe Qusay may be out of commission is the largely non-existent presence of ground-to-ground missile launchers in Qusay's western region.

Fox News' Carl Cameron contributed to this report.

[JustPat]

Look Takeo, its a quote from Fox News! :D

[MichaelC]

Well, I don't know who's dead and who isn't, but did anybody else watch the film of that 5000 pound "bunker buster" hitting Baghdad today? I thought for sure that that al jazeerah journalist was gonna swallow his teeth when it went off.

Being as it's the first, and so far only, bomb of that size used so far in Iraq, I wonder what the intel was that caused them to drop it at that particular time and on that particular spot?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by MichaelC
Well, I don't know who's dead and who isn't, but did anybody else watch the film of that 5000 pound "bunker buster" hitting Baghdad today? I thought for sure that that al jazeerah journalist was gonna swallow his teeth when it went off.



I thought it was two 4,500 lbs bunker busters at two different locations. I’m certain that they were targeting someone or something. Maybe they got Saddam’s double and triple.

Soon they’ll be running out of Hussein’s .

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
I thought it was two 4,500 lbs bunker busters at two different locations. I’m certain that they were targeting someone or something. Maybe they got Saddam’s double and triple.

Soon they’ll be running out of Hussein’s . You may well be right, though the FoxNews report that I was watching dwelt on the size and on the signifcance of it being the first of its kind used in this conflict.

I am sure though that whoever it landed on wouldn't have noticed a 500 pound difference.

I watched the video of the drop a number of times and it did seem to me that there were a number of similar blasts that occurred in close sequence.

[cerulean]

Supposedly, it will be hard to kill Saddam in his bunker.

http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/index.cfm?id=367822003
'16 cruise missiles' to destroy bunker

ALLAN HALL IN BERLIN

TARGETING Saddam Hussein in his presidential bunker will require a concerted attack using 16 cruise missiles directed to the same spot, its designer said yesterday.

Karl Esser claimed the Iraqi dictator was "100 per cent safe" in the steel and concrete structure buried 100 metres below Baghdad.

He said: "I am absolutely certain that Saddam Hussein will not be taken out by a rocket attack on his main palace in Baghdad as long as he remains underground in the bunker I designed."

Mr Esser, 45, of Munich, whose grandmother built the bunker which protected Hitler from attacks, said he was proud of his work, which may prevent the coalition forces’ stated aim of "decapitating" the Iraqi leadership.

The £60 million bunker was built 20 years ago, under the direction of Mr Esser and an Austrian architect, Lorenzo Buffalo, working for Boswau and Knauer of Germany.

Mr Esser said: "I was asked as I had a lot of experience from my family. My grandmother was responsible for Hitler’s bunker under the Berlin Reich chancellery and I have continued the family traditions.

"I built atom bomb-proof bunkers and was then asked to work on the bunker in Iraq." . . .

Frankly, it's hard to imagine someone having a proud family tradition of creating bunkers for megalomaniac, incredibly vicious leaders, but so it is.

[Mediocrates]

We have smart weapons that are too smart. There was an interview on NPR two nights ago where military intelligence sources stated that the first 'kill Saddam" attack was a failure because the bomb that struck his bunker did little damage to the house right next to it where Saddam, his inner circle was in. Back in the day we would have carpet bombed 10 square blocks and incinerated his ass.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by MichaelC
You may well be right, though the FoxNews report that I was watching dwelt on the size and on the signifcance of it being the first of its kind used in this conflict.

I am sure though that whoever it landed on wouldn't have noticed a 500 pound difference.

I watched the video of the drop a number of times and it did seem to me that there were a number of similar blasts that occurred in close sequence.

Now the gubment is saying it wasn't bunker busters at all. Apparently, it was a new device. I'm still waiting to see some live (an oxymoron) footage of MOAB, in theater.

[Johnny Yuma]

TARGETING Saddam Hussein in his presidential bunker will require a concerted attack using 16 cruise missiles directed to the same spot, its designer said yesterday.

Karl Esser claimed the Iraqi dictator was "100 per cent safe" in the steel and concrete structure buried 100 metres below Baghdad.

He said: "I am absolutely certain that Saddam Hussein will not be taken out by a rocket attack on his main palace in Baghdad as long as he remains underground in the bunker I designed."

Mr Esser, 45, of Munich, whose grandmother built the bunker which protected Hitler from attacks, said he was proud of his work, which may prevent the coalition forces’ stated aim of "decapitating" the Iraqi leadership.

The £60 million bunker was built 20 years ago, under the direction of Mr Esser and an Austrian architect, Lorenzo Buffalo, working for Boswau and Knauer of Germany.

Mr Esser said: "I was asked as I had a lot of experience from my family. My grandmother was responsible for Hitler’s bunker under the Berlin Reich chancellery and I have continued the family traditions.

"I built atom bomb-proof bunkers and was then asked to work on the bunker in Iraq." . . .


Isn't that just like a NAZI bastard???? Why is this SOB still breathing????

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
We have smart weapons that are too smart.


We're saving the dumbed-down ones for the dummies; the Republican Guard, when they come out into the open. We call them "Cluster Bombs".

[cerulean]

I didn't see it myself, but I heard that Gen. Tommy Franks says he does not know if Saddam is alive or dead. If so, I suppose there's no way we can know either.

Here's a recent article:
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030331-26329118.htm
Kin of Saddam's aides fleeing
By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said yesterday that family members of Saddam Hussein's closest aides are fleeing Iraq, and that the United States has not seen or heard the Iraqi leader and his two sons since the allies bombed a leadership bunker March 19.
...
Mr. Rumsfeld said yesterday that the campaign has taken a heavy toll on the Iraqi leadership.
"We know that there are people fleeing from the senior regime leadership's family. ... We haven't seen Saddam Hussein or his son in close to eight days."
The allies sprung a surprise attack March 19 in the war's opening shot. The United States received intelligence that Saddam, his sons, Qusai and Uday, and other leaders were staying in a bunkered complex on Baghdad's southern fringe. Two Air Force F-117A stealth fighters penetrated Iraqi airspace undetected, and each dropped two EGBU-27 "bunker buster" bombs on the compound. Six to 10 sea-launched cruise missiles then hit the compound.
"They have seen an attack on their leadership and we have not seen their leadership since," Mr. Rumsfeld said on "Fox News Sunday." "All we know is that since then we have not seen Saddam Hussein or his sons live anywhere or heard any reports [of them] live."
Mr. Rumsfeld dismissed videotapes of Saddam's broadcasts on Iraqi TV.
"They don't look legitimate to me," he said.
He said it was "interesting" that Saddam's personal bodyguard was seen at a weekend press conference standing behind Iraqi Defense Minister Sultan Hashem Ahmed. Intelligence officials believe the bodyguard provided security only to the dictator.
"We're aware of it, and we find it interesting," Mr. Rumsfeld said. "It may be an indication that Saddam Hussein is not moving around much."
Gen. Myers said there are "lots of rumors in Baghdad about where Saddam is, where his first wife is, and those sorts of things, where the sons are. These are good things, because there is doubt in a lot of their minds."
Gen. Tommy Franks, who is running the war from a command center at Doha, Qatar, told reporters yesterday, "I have not seen credible evidence over the last period of days since we started this operation that this regime is being controlled by the top, as we understand the top." . . .

From the article, it sounds like the US prefers that Saddam's existence be an uncertainty. If it helps out the effort, I'm willing to wait to find out, of course.

[JustPat]

Wasn't there talk of a payoff to Lybia before this all started?

[cerulean]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=540&ncid=716&e=5&u=/ap/20030401/ap_on_re_mi_ea/war_saddam

Intelligence: No Sign Saddam Is Alive
Mon Mar 31, 9:16 PM ET
By MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - U.S. intelligence sources have been unable to confirm that Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) survived the March 19 strike on a bunker where he was believed to be staying, a top Pentagon (news - web sites) general said Monday.

That information comes from the same intelligence sources that pinpointed Saddam's location before the airstrike, said Gen. Peter Pace, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

"That doesn't mean he's dead, but he's not visible publicly and he's not been seen or reported to have been seen by anybody," Pace said on PBS' "NewsHour with Jim Lehrer." . . .

Saddam and his sons were shown on video on Monday, but once again there was no indication as to what date it was. Tariq Aziz (a couple days ago) claims to have seen Saddam within the last day, but I wouldn't call him a trustworthy source. I think the US government might be trying to force the issue of whether Saddam is alive or not with these mildly provocative statements.

==========
From the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/01/international/worldspecial/01BAGH.html
Warning of Doom, Edgy Iraqi Leaders Put on Brave Front
By JOHN F. BURNS

. . .A puzzling aspect of many of the news conferences given by top Iraqi officials since the war began has been how rarely they have mentioned Mr. Hussein, compared with the standard before the conflict, when his name and leadership were invoked as often as Mao's in the China of the 1970's, or Stalin's in the Russia of the 1930's and 1940's. At some appearances by ministers, he has been mentioned once or twice, but just as often, he has not been mentioned at all. . . .

If Saddam was dead, who would know it for sure? Would his ministers necessarily?

[cerulean]

Today Saddam was supposed to give a speech, only his Information Minister ended up reading the statement instead. No indication why Saddam was unavailable for this function. I should add that everything to date is also consistent with Saddam being unfit for public viewing - as in badly wounded.

http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,82842,00.html
Associated Press
Alleged Statement From Saddam Hussein Calls for Holy War

Tuesday, April 01, 2003

BAGHDAD, Iraq — The Iraqi information minister, reading a statement he said was from Saddam Hussein, called Tuesday for a jihad, or holy war, against the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

"The aggression that the aggressors are carrying out against the stronghold of faith is an aggression on the religion, the wealth, the honor and the soul and an aggression on the land of Islam," Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf said on national television.

"Therefore, jihad is a duty in confronting them," he added, saying "those who are martyred will be rewarded in heaven. Seize the opportunity, my brothers."

The statement was issued as U.S. forces were reported within 50 miles of Baghdad and as B-52 bombers were pounding Republican Guard positions north of Karbala.

Saddam has delivered two televised addresses since the war began March 20. It was unclear why the Iraqi leader did not appear Tuesday.

"Strike at them, fight them," the statement said. "They are aggressors, evil, accursed by God. You shall be victorious and they shall be vanquished.

"Fight them everywhere the way you are fighting them today," it said. "And don't give them a chance to catch their breath until they declare it and withdraw from the lands of the Muslims, defeated and cursed in this life and the afterlife."

[JustPat]

Originally posted by cerulean
Today Saddam was supposed to give a speech, only his Information Minister ended up reading the statement instead. No indication why Saddam was unavailable for this function. I should add that everything to date is also consistent with Saddam being unfit for public viewing - as in badly wounded.

Alleged Statement From Saddam Hussein Calls for Holy War
At this point anything can be said to be in the name of Saddam. It is the only true power this regime has.
- If Saddam is dead, this will soon be revealed and the regime's remnant will take flight, likely to thier good friends in Syria.
- If Saddam is wounded to the point of not being able to be seen in public, it will soon undermine his "statement's" credibility. Either he will have to show himself or lose what little influence he has left.
- If Saddam has already flown the coop, his henchmen will not be far behind.

Sounds like CentCom may be right about the coalition victory coming from within Bagdad. :)

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by cerulean


If Saddam was dead, who would know it for sure? Would his ministers necessarily?

72 Virgins with sore behinds!

[Formula]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
72 Virgins with sore behinds!

:D

:eek: :eek:

[JustPat]

Originally posted by cerulean
If Saddam was dead, who would know it for sure? Would his ministers necessarily?

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
72 Virgins with sore behinds!
You assume he made it to paradise, but if not, then it may be his behind that is sore! ;)

[JustPat]

Having stood the world up at his promised "LIVE" press conference, the rumor mill has fresh fodder. Is this the action of a cagey fox leeking to draw the prey or the proof that Saddam is no longer in control? Has he fled to a more friendly environ? Is he pushing up daisy cutters? The plot thickens.

[L@mplighterM]

Snip:

April 2, 2003


White House dares Iraq to prove Saddam is alive
By Bill Sammon
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


The Bush administration yesterday cheered Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's failure to show up for an expected live TV appearance and effectively dared the Iraqi regime to prove he is still alive.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030402-10821777.htm

[cerulean]

The Onion has its own take on Saddam's "speech":
http://www.theonion.com/onion3912/saddam_speech.html

===========
I should also mention Debka, which you should probably take about as seriously as the Onion, says Saddam might have fled:

(from www.debka.com right now)
HEADLINES

Last Updated on April 2, 2003, 7:33 PM (GMT+02:00)
Has Saddam made a run for it?

DEBKAfile’s exclusive intelligence sources report increasing indications that Saddam Hussein, his sons and top Iraqi leadership members may no longer be in Baghdad. It is not clear whether the Iraqi ruler has gone into hiding elsewhere in the country, the Middle East or outside the region. Some top Iraqi officials have been sighted in other Middle East and European capitals.

The disappearance of Saddam and his following would account for the feeble resistance Iraqi Special Republican Guard divisions put up to coalition advance on the capital in last 48 hours.

[Johnny Yuma]

"SADDAM HUSSEIN IS ALIVE AND WELL AND LIVING IN GRACELAND", says Miss Cleo...

[cerulean]

Here is another article saying we know nothing.
http://www.iht.com/articles/91209.html

U.S. actively sows doubts about whether Saddam is alive
David E. Sanger and James Risen The New York Times
Thursday, April 3, 2003

The Bush administration has embarked on a campaign — using radio broadcasts and other communications with Iraqi military leaders — to sow doubts about whether Saddam Hussein is still alive and in control of the country, senior administration and military officials said. American officials say they have still reached no conclusions about whether Saddam survived an attack two weeks ago. But they are trying to turn that uncertainty to battlefield advantage, attempting to raise questions in the minds of Iraqi military commanders defending Baghdad about whether they should stand and fight for a leader who may have been killed or incapacitated. ‘‘From what our intelligence is picking up, some of the Iraqi commanders themselves have not heard from him,’’ said one senior official. ‘‘And we don’t know ourselves. So you could call this psychological warfare, or you could call it exploitation of the biggest mystery out there.’’ . . .

On the off-chance that Saddam missed out on the bunker busting the first day, one could surely point out he is a rather gigantic coward. His esteemed armed forces are engaged in a struggle they can't possibly win, Arabs from all over the Middle East are blowing themselves up for their glorious leader, and Saddam can't even trouble himself to make a live television date.

So I would say there are three possibilities: he's dead, he's injured, or he's a gigantic coward.

[mimil]

Originally posted by cerulean

So I would say there are three possibilities: he's dead, he's injured, or he's a gigantic coward.

I am in for an other round of insult, anyway I am getting used to it.

Anyone remebers where Mr Bush was just after the 09/11 attacks ?

[elke]

Originally posted by cerulean
So I would say there are three possibilities: he's dead, he's injured, or he's a gigantic coward. [/B]

He is likely 2 of the 3! :D

[JustPat]

Originally posted by mimil
I am in for an other round of insult, anyway I am getting used to it.

Anyone remebers where Mr Bush was just after the 09/11 attacks ?
Quite well.

Bush was in an elementary school classroom and boarded Airforce One until his safety was assured. Dick Chaney, our VP, was in the command and control bunker in DC. Both appeared live on TV in less than 24 hours.

Where's Saddamo?

[cerulean]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83195,00.html
===========
Saddam has made an unannounced speech. He appears to have mentioned a March 24 incident of a farmer shooting down a helicopter. However, this incident has only ever been verified by the Iraqis, so it's possible that all of this was staged. In this appearance, he was reading from a notebook and wearing a military uniform.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by cerulean
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83195,00.html
===========
Saddam has made an unannounced speech. He appears to have mentioned a March 24 incident of a farmer shooting down a helicopter. However, this incident has only ever been verified by the Iraqis, so it's possible that all of this was staged. In this appearance, he was reading from a notebook and wearing a military uniform.


About a week or so ago Iraq claimed that a farmer had shot down a helicopter. The allies deny that such an incident has ever taken place.

IMO this latest broadcast is some propaganda tape recorded prior to any conflict aimed at rallying the Iraqis.

[cerulean]

Now Iraqi TV is claiming Saddam is walking around Baghdad to cheering crowds. Only trouble is the footage is supposed to be live, so it should be night, but it looks like daytime. The people are wearing heavy clothing, and it's 100 degrees or so.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by cerulean
Now Iraqi TV is claiming Saddam is walking around Baghdad to cheering crowds. Only trouble is the footage is supposed to be live, so it should be night, but it looks like daytime. The people are wearing heavy clothing, and it's 100 degrees or so. That guy does NOT look like saddam to me. What do others think?

Also, watch the footage carefully. The bodyguards are "running him", not the other way around. There is no indication of the the well established assertiveness of saddam, just this guy with an non-stop goofy smile on his face being totally controlled by "handlers".

In addition, the crowd is never more than approximately 100, maybe 200 max, in a city of millions. Where are the people? Traffic is passing freely on streets that one would think would be utterly clogged. The scene definitely lacks authenticity.

Body double in a performance of desperation.

[cerulean]

I saw the supposed crowd footage with Saddam for a couple minutes today. I agree that doesn't really seem like the real Saddam. The expressions just didn't jibe.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by cerulean
I saw the supposed crowd footage with Saddam for a couple minutes today. I agree that doesn't really seem like the real Saddam. The expressions just didn't jibe.
I have seen the footage another 10 tens or so since my last post and have made another observation.

As I said, the crowd seems way too small for a city of that size, considering that no one has seen the guy since the invasion began. The city has millions of residents. That scene does not ring true.

In looking at the footage you can see that people in the tiny crowd surrounding the so-called saddam, are themselves surrounded by a very large empty area in which no one is seen, except a few more people hurriedly joining the "crowd". How is that possible in such a large city?

My guess is that only those few people are let near the fake "saddam" while soldiers hold back all other nearby citizens out of sight, lest someone present not be demonstrating the same amount of fervor. You would think that in a war torn city that has been under bombardment that the citizens would flock to the scene of such an event.

The smoke plume in the background as the camera pans around is not conclusive. Only one plume? And no scenes of destruction are shown, which you'd think would be in order to tug at the hearts of the raging fanatics whom he has invited to Baghdad to martyr themselves.

And the mention of the helicopter, supposedly downed by a farmer, made in the morning address by "whoever", does not seem like much of a reference at all to me. It is not that current of a reference.There are so many other thing going on that could have been mentioned, why this almost innocuous mention of the chopper?

You would think he might have mentioned the homicide bombing that had just taken place since it is jihad and martyrdom that he has been pushing lately, but he fails to do so. Doesn't make sense.

[JustPat]

Let's not forget the MO: deceive, deny, decry

[cerulean]

Originally posted by JustPat
Let's not forget the MO: deceive, deny, decry

Indeed. Witness the "Information Minister" a few hours ago claiming the Americans were not in Baghdad when they were in fact a few blocks away from him.

Still no definitive answer as to whether Saddam is alive or not. The good news is that his cousin, "Chemical Ali," is dead.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83383,00.html

Chemical Ali is Saddam's cousin and he was the one who gave the direct order for gassing of the Kurds.

This article points out some problems with the recent video shown on Iraqi TV (purportedly of Saddam):

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31900

It also suggests that Saddam may have fled the country. Syria is mentioned as the most likely destination.