anybody else hear hypocrisy?

[wellofvow]

I am an American-born Israeli. More important, I am also a lactation counselor. I celebrate life, all life. I weep at death, all death.

However, watching CNN, I am choked with rage at the hypocrisy of the UN and the media reporting the war in Iraq, and can remain silent no more.

The big news tonight, especially at the Pentagon and from Kofi Anan at the UN, is the "humanitarian" outrage of 15 Iraqi civilians being reported as killed, allegedly by an American missile hitting a market. The military makes it clear that IF this report is true, the market was located very close to a military target, but the Pentagon is apologetic to the point of being ridiculous.

Such sadness at the death of 15 civilians killed at the strike on a military target right in their midst! Such anguish expressed by Kofi Anan of the humanitarian suffering!

Where were the tears and sadness for over 20 mostly elderly Israelis killed at a hotel, celebrating the Passover Seder in Netanya, well within Israel proper, just a year ago, almost to the day? These were not at any military target of the Palestinian murderer.

And what of the over a dozen teenagers killed at the Dolphinarium disco in Tel Aviv? A disco is a military target? Since when are high school kids not civilians?

All we heard from the great humanitarian Kofi Anan at the spilling of innocent Jewish civilian blood was the usual, by-rote pleas to "stop the cycle of violence". I do not recall any opining of civilian suffering, or that these murders were unhumanitarian.

What is especially galling is the two-faced demands by the English to implement immediately the infamous "road map". Apparently, we are to pretend that the exact same things that are done by the Iraqis are infamous war crimes, but are merely a "cycle of violence" by Palestinians.

This is intolerable, unhumanitarian, and many other words, but the bottom line is: it is bald-faced hypocrisy.

[Salim]

On behalf of the German nation, i express our condolences for all the killed persons you just mentioned.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by Salim
On behalf of the German nation, i express our condolences for all the killed persons you just mentioned.

Dear Salim, Thank you for your condolences. We have received many. But this is not my point.

My point is, bottom line, that Israeli civilians are simply not considered by Kofi Anan, by the media, by the Americans, and certainly not by the British, to be as "human" as Iraqi civilians. Listening to TV coverage of the war, I think that the word "humanitarian" is heard at least once a minute. I have NEVER heard this word in connection with the homicide bombers who have killed hundreds of Israeli civilians.

As I opened with, I celebrate life, ALL LIFE. My professional and academic training has been toward projecting to the future, and protecting it, making it healthier, not dwelling on the past, but learning from it and building on it.

The implication of the hypocrisy I see is that Israelis (and Jews?) are not human. This should be a shrill warning bell, especially to a German.

If Jews cannot hear it, ..........

[andak01]

http://mpac.org/news_article_display.aspx?ITEM=52
MPAC Condemns Bombing in Israel
Wednesday, July 31, 2002

(Washington D.C., The Muslim Public Affairs Council condemns the bombing attack against innocent civilians that took place at Hebrew University in Israel today, killing seven people.

Freedom of access to education is an important Islamic value, and we find it shocking that these students were targeted as they pursued their studies. All students, Palestinian and Israeli, should have the right to a safe learning environment as an integral element of a secure life.

It is obvious that the policy of wrenching violence being pursued by the present Israeli government and Palestinian extremists is a fruitless and tragic waste of time and precious human life. MPAC renews its call that meaningful political negotiations resume between the parties to bring this horrible crisis to a just and permanent end.

http://matusa.org/home.asp
http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/longisland/ny-limeet212425415oct21.story
http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/dpa/monpaper/98-no25/mago.htm
http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

"Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds."
From the last sermon of Prophet Mohammed (SAW)

[Mediocrates]

thanks for those.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by andak01
http://mpac.org/news_article_display.aspx?ITEM=52
MPAC Condemns Bombing in Israel
Wednesday, July 31, 2002

(Washington D.C., The Muslim Public Affairs Council condemns the bombing attack against innocent civilians that took place at Hebrew University in Israel today, killing seven people.

It is obvious that the policy of wrenching violence being pursued by the present Israeli government and Palestinian extremists is a fruitless and tragic waste of time and precious human life. MPAC renews its call that meaningful political negotiations resume between the parties to bring this horrible crisis to a just and permanent end.



You have just provided support for my argument. Thank you.

"It is obvious that the policy of wrenching VIOLENCE being PURSUED BY THE PRESENT ISRAELI GOVERNMENT..."

The elderly were sitting down to a holiday meal, one of the most important holidays in the Jewish calendar, celebrating freedom. The highschoolers were in line at a disco on a Friday night, doing what kids do. How can this POSSIBLY be construed as "violence being pursued by the Israeli government"? How dare this organization imply that people waiting at a bus stop are Israeli government agents pursuing violence? They were waiting for a bus, for pete's sake. A grandmother pushing her granddaughter in a stroller were killed while the daughter/mother watched and was wounded herself.

I am sick of propaganda masquerading as even-handedness. BASTA. Make an end to this! Speak out against the liars and twisters of logic and truth. Why do you cower? Of what are you afraid?

The Palestinians were warned that Israeli will defend itself. Everone forgets the old joke about the man who kills his parents and then begs for the court's mercy as he is an orphan. Israel was and is being attacked. Israel defended and will defend itself. It is the right of every and any sovereign state to defend its people. Why is Israel, alone among all the nations of the world, castigated fo doing so?

Why are the tricks of the Iraqis called "perfidy" by the Pentagon, and the same tricks used by the Palestinians called "lies by the IDF" in the corridors of the UN?

The Arab world has not dealt with reality since 1948, and refuses to. The Palestinians are the most foolish of all Arab tribes, as they have put their trust in their brothers, and their brothers have consistently betrayed them.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by wellofvow
My point is, bottom line, that Israeli civilians are simply not considered by Kofi Anan, by the media, by the Americans, and certainly not by the British, to be as "human" as Iraqi civilians. Listening to TV coverage of the war, I think that the word "humanitarian" is heard at least once a minute. I have NEVER heard this word in connection with the homicide bombers who have killed hundreds of Israeli civilians.


Hey! I'm an American!

[richcrassus]

I heard that the 15 werent from an american missile but from an IRAQI field gun shell!!!
you dont know who to believe nowdays.

[localbrew]

I am so sick of this blame America first attitude it almost makes me puke. Kofi Anna and his little band of UN clowns are irrelevant. I don’t care one way or another about the market getting bombed in Baghdad. This is war and bad things happen in war.

Kofi Annan just put another nail in the coffin of the UN with his last statement. The Arab and Muslim media has proved what idiots and hypocrites they all are. Where is the condemnation from the UN and the Muslim media over Saddam and the war crimes Iraqi soldiers are perpetrating even as I write this.

Exactly the same can be said for the way the UN and the Muslim media treats Israel. Where is the morality in this world?

[humus_sapiens]

- The terrorists do their bloody job.
- The politicians do their dirty job.
- The haters, justifiers, deniers and launders attempt to do theirs.

Just as expected. But:

- If Israel brings Arafat & Co. from the exile, releases the gangsters from prisons and arms them...
- If daily premeditated mass murders are called "the situation" or even "the peace process", instead of war...
- If the winner of aggressive wars simply gives up what's been won...
- If Israeli PM agrees to create the never-before-existing Pal. state in the Israel's heartland, perfectly knowing all the consequences...

... I woudn't expect Europe, the US or the UN to oppose or even appreciate it.

I thought we Jews should have smarten up enough to know where this familiar road leads. If we do not stand for ourselves, nobody will.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
Hey! I'm an American!

OK, OK, when I said "American" I was referring to CNN (an American-owned media), the Pentagon, Colin Powell before he changed his mind and decided to be a Secretary of State instead of lobbyist for the Arabs, many American universities. This was on institutional level, not personal. C'mon, gimme a break here. :rolleyes:

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by richcrassus
I heard that the 15 werent from an american missile but from an IRAQI field gun shell!!!
you dont know who to believe nowdays.

You are certainly right about that! Not to mention the cover-up issue.

However, again, my POINT is about hypocrisy and use of words.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by humus_sapiens
- The terrorists do their bloody job.
- The politicians do their dirty job.
- The haters, justifiers, deniers and launders attempt to do theirs.

Just as expected. But:

- If Israel brings Arafat & Co. from the exile, releases the gangsters from prisons and arms them...
- If daily premeditated mass murders are called "the situation" or even "the peace process", instead of war...
- If the winner of aggressive wars simply gives up what's been won...
- If Israeli PM agrees to create the never-before-existing Pal. state in the Israel's heartland, perfectly knowing all the consequences...

... I woudn't expect Europe, the US or the UN to oppose or even appreciate it.

I thought we Jews should have smarten up enough to know where this familiar road leads. If we do not stand for ourselves, nobody will.

I agree with you absolutely, *in principle*, BUT:

Israel was forced into all of your above points because of world pressure. Even the United States, the world's only superpower, is sweating bullets and bending over backwards to "justify" its war against this brutal animal who has been allowed to continue to run Iraq for over a decade, even though known to be a genocidal maniac by the world.

We watch American Jews demonstrate for the Palestinians. We read about Jews supporting Palestinians (e.g., Noam Chomsky, and that jerky "professor" in England with his academic boycott).

Israel is here for all Jews....for now. If all Jews do not show stronger, less-apologetic, less "evenhanded" support for Israel, well, once Israel is obliterated, it WON'T be there for all Jews. Remember, please, that the FIRST line to the aphorism of Hillel is "If I am not for myself, then who is?"

How do you propose that Israel withstand the calumny of the whole world? Bush Senior and other American presidents threatened to withhold promised funding to Israel. Whole nations boycott Israel economically. Now we have some academic boycotts by total morons.

People seem to accept as perfectly reasonable that money to Israel is conditional upon Israel ignoring our sovereign right to defend our citizens, but no one has called upon Arafat and his thugs to account for the billions poured into their private coffers which were supposed to create jobs, better healthcare, etc. for "the people". He chose to invest in weapons instead - outside of his private bank account. No one screamed at the Jordanians after 1967, when they conquered and occupied the West Bank, to give the "Palestinians" "their land" back, or to form a "Palestinian state". Did the Brits during their Mandate occupation, make a serious effort to find, prosecute, and punish the mob that slaughtered dozens of defenseless Jews in 1929 in Hebron (long before any Jewish State, Jewish "occupation", "humilation at checkpoints", nadanada)?

Humus, you start down a very dangerous road by your argument above. You also disregard history. Think again. It boils down to, is perceived as, and so is ultimately regarded as "acceptable" to blaming the victim, as long as the victim is Israel or Jewish. I do NOT think that this is your intent, so, again, think about it.

[wellofvow]

Words are important. Propaganda is, after all, a war of words. So let's look at a few.

Tell me, students, is it hypocritcal or correct to call the woman homicide bomber in the Jerusalem supermarket at Kiryat Hayovel a "humanitarian", since she saved the lives of the Arabs outside the supermarket by telling them to run away, something "bad" was about to happen?

And tell me, students, is it hypocritical or correct to parallel the lives of the woman murderer and one of her victims, also a young woman?

Attention, students! How about if WE learn from the Arabs? Let's look at their talented use of the word "humiliation".

Who out there can work up a little humiliation when the media compared a young Jewish girl at a supermarket with a cold-blooded murderer who did not know her, and had NO motivation for murdering her except that she was Jewish?

Since "humiliation" worked so well as a buzzword started by Hanan Oshrawi (how humiliating it is for Arabs at checkpoints, and the demolishment of Arab houses used for snipers), why not claim that it is "humiliating" for Israelis to be killed drinking coffee in cafes, riding buses to school, eating pizza? (OK, so I'm being sarcastic, but since the world doesn't get it, even now.....)

Let's move on to "violations of the Geneva convention", which is being raved about now by the hysterical Iraqi delegate to the UN. How does the UN explain the Red Cross consistently not being allowed EVER to see Israeli POWs and being able to ascertain their status - or even if they are alive or dead!, and ACCEPTING IT WITHOUT AN OUTCRY?

How does the UN explain that UN forces (!) near the Lebanese border FILMED an attack and kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, and REFUSED to make this available to Israel until forced to? And the Red Cross was denied access to these Israeli soldiers also.

"Genocide" is a kidnapped word. It IS "attempted genocide" when 5,000 Kurds are murdered by chemical weapons. It is NOT "genocide" when Israeli soldiers enter a hostile town to capture known terrorists and destroy bomb factories, and kill 50 of the enemy, or those who the enemy hid behind, in the process.

"War crimes" is another kidnapping, same as above.

Anyone else have entries? I could go on, but I have another life (sometimes).

[humus_sapiens]

Originally posted by wellofvow
I agree with you absolutely, *in principle*, BUT:

I heartily agree with all your arguments. It is a noble Jewish tradition to have the full range of opinions on any subject. So I won't hold my breath to see this change soon. Maybe we should think how to use it to our advantage...

I am sorry my words can be misread. That's not what I meant at all, obviously.

Sometimes we (our press, policies or politicians) are our worst enemies. There must be a threshold in giving up to the demands of the anti-semitic world. Nice guys lose.

[andak01]

Originally posted by wellofvow
"Genocide" is a kidnapped word. It IS "attempted genocide" when 5,000 Kurds are murdered by chemical weapons. It is NOT "genocide" when Israeli soldiers enter a hostile town to capture known terrorists and destroy bomb factories, and kill 50 of the enemy, or those who the enemy hid behind, in the process.

"War crimes" is another kidnapping, same as above.

Anyone else have entries? I could go on, but I have another life (sometimes).

I agree that there are a lot of kidnapped words and overblown concepts. Comparing everthing to WWII and everybody to Hitler is another. Bin Laden is Hitler, Saddam is Hitler, Noriega is Hitler, Sharon is Hitler, Bush is Hitler. Well their are not. Understanding what they are is a bit more complex. Let's get real here. Bin Laden and Saddam and all the Islamists put together don't amount to one Hitler in 1938, much less later. They haven't even taken over one country, much less 3/4 of Europe.

Of course the threat of WMDs is grave and we must be constantly vigilant against it. But it WILL happen that some nations and peoples that don't share our interests will be armed against us. Given the policy that America is presently pursueing, we now have to go to war with and defeat every country that even threatens to arm. And if we so much as falter, the rest of the world is in danger. But we could save a lot of money by simply closing all of our embassies and laying off our diplomats and admitting that the age of diplomacy is over.

[cerulean]

Bin Laden and Saddam and all the Islamists put together don't amount to one Hitler in 1938, much less later. They haven't even taken over one country, much less 3/4 of Europe.

They're not the same. They do share many of the same goals. I don't think it's for lack of wanting that bin Laden and Saddam have not managed to achieve the same levels of slaughter as Hitler did.

Also, Saddam did take over Kuwait in 1990, although world response was different. Bin Laden did effectively take over Afghanistan.

[andak01]

Originally posted by cerulean
They're not the same. They do share many of the same goals. I don't think it's for lack of wanting that bin Laden and Saddam have not managed to achieve the same levels of slaughter as Hitler did.

Also, Saddam did take over Kuwait in 1990, although world response was different. Bin Laden did effectively take over Afghanistan.

And Kuwait and Afghanistan compare to the Rhineland and France how? Baby Doc and Bokasa and Idi Amin also wanted to rule the world. To paraphrase, hegemony is the hobgobblin of evil minds. The question is, what was their capability. Perhaps by terrorist standards, Al Qaida is able to do a lot of damage. But America was able to mobilize and overtake Afghanistan in less time than it took Atta to finish his pilot training. Not only that, but we were able to turn the whole country's security upside down in less time than it takes an Al Qaida member to go through training.

The actions of the past week have strengthened anti-American sentiment in the world and probably bolstered the terrorist ranks. If operation Clusterbombs of Freedom turns out not to be a quick and bloodless victory, it could have the opposite effect of its stated purpose.

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by andak01

The actions of the past week have strengthened anti-American sentiment in the world and probably bolstered the terrorist ranks

Numbers and stats please, not assumptions. Anti-American sentiment has been there always and was bolstered when we declared a war on terror when everyone would of rather had us blame ourselves and roll over and take it.

[Mediocrates]

Perhaps it's true but the curve was headed in that direction anyhow. Which would you rather have? Brain cancer or ALS?

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
The actions of the past week have strengthened anti-American sentiment in the world........ You have certainly done your part to add to this stat

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by andak01
The actions of the past week have strengthened anti-American sentiment in the world

Unfortunately, you're probably right about that. But it ain't over till it's over. Then we'll see how history will judge this war.

[eyl]

You're painting with too wide a brush here, IMO. There are already countries possessing WMDs who don't share the US's interests (e.g. China). The problem is less WMD's per se but rather WMDs in dictatorships (which means there are no checks on their use) led by leaders who have shown themselves to be irrational or who have used WMD (e.g. Korea, Iraq).

Originally posted by andak01
Of course the threat of WMDs is grave and we must be constantly vigilant against it. But it WILL happen that some nations and peoples that don't share our interests will be armed against us. Given the policy that America is presently pursueing, we now have to go to war with and defeat every country that even threatens to arm. And if we so much as falter, the rest of the world is in danger. But we could save a lot of money by simply closing all of our embassies and laying off our diplomats and admitting that the age of diplomacy is over.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by andak01
And Kuwait and Afghanistan compare to the Rhineland and France how? Baby Doc and Bokasa and Idi Amin also wanted to rule the world. To paraphrase, hegemony is the hobgobblin of evil minds. The question is, what was their capability. Perhaps by terrorist standards, Al Qaida is able to do a lot of damage. But America was able to mobilize and overtake Afghanistan in less time than it took Atta to finish his pilot training. Not only that, but we were able to turn the whole country's security upside down in less time than it takes an Al Qaida member to go through training.


Amazing what you can do with focus and determination, isn't it?

The actions of the past week have strengthened anti-American sentiment in the world and probably bolstered the terrorist ranks. If operation Clusterbombs of Freedom turns out not to be a quick and bloodless victory, it could have the opposite effect of its stated purpose.

This reads like "The Sour-Grapes of Wrath" and I'm starting to feel like a broken record.....

The stated purpose is to: A) Remove Saddam Hussein and his regime, B) Remove the weapons of mass destruction, and C) Liberate the people of Iraq.

At no time did the Administration or Pentagon state that this would be easy or bloodless. Anyone who believes that war is anything other than bloody and cruel has been living in a fantasy world. If you have proof that those statements were made, please show your evidence.

I believe the stated purpose I outlined previously is a widely held foregone conclusion that those things will take place. Whether or not they remain liberated depends upon how long we stay in Iraq. Clearly, unlike in years gone by, now, we will move against those that pose a threat, and I believe many regimes are looking at what is going on and saying, "Oh sh.t!".

[wellofvow]

Many raise good points here, but I must say that I agree "most" with eyl.

I also have become very uneasy by a perceived sense of complacency implied by many of the posts. I won't even go to the complacency by the lala-landers I see on my small screen.

Johnny Yuma sort of touched on this, speaking of war. It never fails to surprise me when the reporters sound so shocked that people are being hurt and even killed. What do they think "war" is - a video game?

By saying I'm uneasy by complacency, I mean getting itchy when all kinds of people seem to think that the war will be wound up in a matter of weeks, that "humanitarian relief" will be received with smiles, cheers, and warm welcome, and that "democracy" will happen poof-presto!, and everyone lives happily ever after.

Folks, you are in for a BIIIIIIIIIG surprise. My money (and unfortunately, our lives) is on a very different scenario. The "humanitarian" Americans will be harrassed, murdered, and chased out of Iraq and other places in the Middle East. Democracy will not happen in any Arab country in the Middle East. The Americans will fail again, unfortunately on a bigger scale than in 1991, if they continue along the road they have taken thus far, and I see no sign that they will not continue. They simply do NOT understand a culture completely alien to theirs. And they refuse to *recognize* it as alien. Different standards, different values.

It is truly awesome that NOTHING was learned, really, by 9/11. That NOTHING *will be* learned, even after seeing with their own eyes that the Iraqis are acting in this war using EXACTLY the same "tricks" that the Palestinians have been using in their war against Israel. Fundamentalist Islam has NO respect for ANY human life. What other religion has mothers who crow with pride that their son or daughter has murdered dozens of people? And that they pray that the baby they are holding in their arms will grow up to do the same? These real people are freely interviewed, the interviews are aired on television, but nobody believes them? Why not? They are perfectly serious.

There will be no third chance for Western forces in the Middle East.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by wellofvow
Many raise good points here, but I must say that I agree "most" with eyl.

I also have become very uneasy by a perceived sense of complacency implied by many of the posts. I won't even go to the complacency by the lala-landers I see on my small screen.

Johnny Yuma sort of touched on this, speaking of war. It never fails to surprise me when the reporters sound so shocked that people are being hurt and even killed. What do they think "war" is - a video game?

By saying I'm uneasy by complacency, I mean getting itchy when all kinds of people seem to think that the war will be wound up in a matter of weeks, that "humanitarian relief" will be received with smiles, cheers, and warm welcome, and that "democracy" will happen poof-presto!, and everyone lives happily ever after.

Folks, you are in for a BIIIIIIIIIG surprise. My money (and unfortunately, our lives) is on a very different scenario. The "humanitarian" Americans will be harrassed, murdered, and chased out of Iraq and other places in the Middle East. Democracy will not happen in any Arab country in the Middle East. The Americans will fail again, unfortunately on a bigger scale than in 1991, if they continue along the road they have taken thus far, and I see no sign that they will not continue. They simply do NOT understand a culture completely alien to theirs. And they refuse to *recognize* it as alien. Different standards, different values.

It is truly awesome that NOTHING was learned, really, by 9/11. That NOTHING *will be* learned, even after seeing with their own eyes that the Iraqis are acting in this war using EXACTLY the same "tricks" that the Palestinians have been using in their war against Israel. Fundamentalist Islam has NO respect for ANY human life. What other religion has mothers who crow with pride that their son or daughter has murdered dozens of people? And that they pray that the baby they are holding in their arms will grow up to do the same? These real people are freely interviewed, the interviews are aired on television, but nobody believes them? Why not? They are perfectly serious.

There will be no third chance for Western forces in the Middle East.

Never mind...