Unilateral Separation

[SaltyDawg]

Moderator Note:

This thread was originally started on 06-07-2001 in another section. I moved it into this section on 12-10-2001 as a kind of example. Although it isn't presented in a peaceful tone, it illustrates a discussion of a popular view of just one option that could possibly lead to an end to Arab-Israeli violence. The following is the original discussion:
------------------------------



This is the only answer to the conflict:

a total separation between arabs and jews.

just like the PA murders the settlers who live near the arabs, israel needs to learn the lesson that co-existence is impossible in this generation.

separate and survive.

If the next egenartion of arabs is more civilized, then the separation can be lessened, but this generation is lost and needs to live separately where the arabs cannnot murder the jews.

Never mind what the anti-Semitic world thinks -- the most important thing is to prevent more jewish deaths and reach some kind of practical end to the conflict.

[Negev]

Originally posted by SaltyDawg
This is the only answer to the palestinian problem:

a total separation between arabs and jews.

just like the PA murders the settlers who live near the arabs, israel needs to learn the lesson that co-existence is impossible in this generation.

separate and survive.

If the next egenartion of arabs is more civilized, then the separation can be lessened, but this generation is lost and needs to live separately where the arabs cannnot murder the jews.

never mind what the "enlightened" europeans think. the most important thing is to prevent more jewish deaths and reach some kind of practical end to the conflict.

I think that everyone except the ultra-liberal left wing in Israel knows that separation is the only answer.

but israel is too afraid of world opinion to do what is best.

[Sonny]

Originally posted by Negev


I think that everyone except the ultra-liberal left wing in Israel knows that separation is the only answer.

but israel is too afraid of world opinion to do what is best.

Yes, a unilateral separation is the only solution.

[Not Beilin]

Originally posted by Sonny


Yes, a unilateral separation is the only solution.

Agreed. But only after eliminating Arafat and the PA.

[EZwriter]

I will start by saying that I admire Moshe Arens and generally agree with his views. This is why I am very surprised to see some of his opinions on why a unilateral separation will not work.

The following are excerpts from an article authoried by Arens and published in Haaretz:

"After every terrorist atrocity committed by Palestinian suicide bombers, there rises, like the mythological phoenix out of the ashes, the chimera of separation...

As for the practicability of the proposal of separation, its proponents seem to forget that over 1 million Palestinians - Israel's Arab citizens, some even serving in the IDF - live within the borders of Israel, and there is no way of "separating" them from Israel's Jewish citizens.

Israel's capital, Jerusalem, has a population of 200,000 Palestinians, and it is hard to believe that anyone is seriously contemplating building a "Berlin wall" in the city. "

[Anti-Intifada]

Originally posted by EZwriter

As for the practicability of the proposal of separation, its proponents seem to forget that over 1 million Palestinians - Israel's Arab citizens, some even serving in the IDF - live within the borders of Israel, and there is no way of "separating" them from Israel's Jewish citizens.


The problem seems to be mostly in separating the Jewish Judea and Samaria settlements from the PA citizens. That can be accomplished by forcing a small percentage of the Arabs to move into larger Arab populations blocks and building a defensible border.

The "practicability" I'm worried about is that of Jewish survival, and not what is most convenient form murderous Arabs.

[Jean le Ne]

NOT BEILIN- Are you an American Jew? I am wondering why you would add the condition of " eliminating ARAFAT " as a necessary preliminary to establishing separate states?

[Not Beilin]

Originally posted by Jean le Ne
NOT BEILIN- Are you an American Jew? I am wondering why you would add the condition of " eliminating ARAFAT " as a necessary preliminary to establishing separate states?

And I'm wondering why you connect American Jewery with the desire to eliminate Arafat.

Arafat and Muslim terrorists are the obstacle to peace, and so the obstacles must be eliminated.

Israel has tried diplomacy for several years now and legitimized Arafat by bringing him back from Tunis and giving him political power, funding and weapons becuase he promised a peaceful process. But he obviously lied.

So now, he needs to be elminated and replaced by a different leadership who wants to make peace.

[Jean le Ne]

It's amazing, NOT BEILIN, how you can make such lunacy sound reasonable, as if you were discussing putting an addition onto your kitchen. Eliminate ARAFAT, just a renovation, that's all.

The reason I ask about your residence, is that often times to most militant solutions, with regard to this conflict, are proposed by individuals who are far away from the front lines, and therefore the consequences, of their planned strategies.

Eliminating Arafat? Do you mean assassinate Arafat? Or do you mean orchestrate, if possible, his political demise?

Finally, your suggestion implies that you are a Jew who finds the Palestinians entirely responsible for this problem, currently and historically. Is that the way you see it?

I am sincerely interested in dialogue, but if you are a terminally innocent Jew, then, all the best, and I'll move on to the rest...

[Not Beilin]

Originally posted by Jean le Ne
I am sincerely interested in dialogue, but if you are a terminally innocent Jew, then, all the best, and I'll move on to the rest...

I guess I'm terminally innocent.:rolleyes:

But I do mean exactly to eliminate Arafat and his terrorist infrastructure with the same types of bombs that he ordered to be shot on Israeli towns, aiming especially for the children's club house.

You might think that American Jews who are far away from the action like to be naiively militant, but this is not what I'm all about.

When I talk about eliminating Arafat like taking out some old trash, this is basically the public assessment of the IDF and defense ministry, which has said specifically a week ago that Israel would be better from a defense point of view without Arafat. In addition to this statement, in the past few weeks, numerous similar statements have been made by many Israeli political and military personnel, and the general public, except for the ultra left minority.

Yes, I agree with PM Sharon and Bibi Netanyahu that Arafat have outlived his any useful historical role, and must go now so there will be a chance for peace in Israel.

[Jean le Ne]

First of all, thank you for the response. I appreciate that this is a difficult matter, and I also appreciate that as a gentile ( I am a...) I have, certainly, a different perspective than you have, as a Jew, whether you are in Israel, or in the diaspora. I assume, from your comments, that you are in the USA...

Let me offer this- good, bad, ugly or indifferent; the Palestinian Authority is recognized, in most democracies, as the legitimate representitive of the unborn, or state-in-waiting of Palestine. And Yasser Arafat ( whom I agree is a terrorist, but then so was Begin, and so was SHARON etc ) is the legitimate leader of that government. If the state of Israel is really serious about liquadating ( sp ), assassinating, or otherwise making-to-disappear this guy, then you must understand that Israel is going to be seen as, how can I say this in a neighbourly fashion...nuts? Out of control? Over the top?

Again, I am only to willing to recognize, and to continue to learn about the trying history of Israel, and the Jewish people. I have encountered mucho flack, in cyberspace, for my sympathetic comments re Palestine, which is often ( and incorrectly ) understood as being anti semetic.

I am a supporter of a two state solution. I am not even entirely anti zionism, I simply think that way back in '48, under the pressure and horror of the Holocaust, the Zionists hurried the process, and the result is this conflict...

You and I may agree that Arafat is a bad bastard. But the leaders of Islamic Jihad and Hamas are worse still. Where will it end for Israel, if this precedent is set? Who is next, and with what consequence? Let's not speak of this as if the Palestinians would just accept it placidly. My god, NOT BEILIN, there would be horrific consequences....

[Robert Furst]

The reality is that separation between Jews and Muslims is not realistic, unless Israel is prepared to move both Jews & Muslims throughout Israel.

The problem with the Middle east is that there truly is no real solution, not one that would truly be accepted by all parties. As long as one party is not satisfied, inevtiably war will come, and people will die.

Fair and equitable do not fit in with politics, religion and nationalism and the situation in Israel is a mix of all three. Perhaps instead of shooting, the religious zealots should spend more time in prayer. If they truly believe in God and his ability and judgement, they should let God decide.

[Negev]

Originally posted by Robert Furst
The reality is that separation between Jews and Muslims is not realistic, unless Israel is prepared to move both Jews & Muslims throughout Israel.

The problem with the Middle east is that there truly is no real solution, not one that would truly be accepted by all parties. As long as one party is not satisfied, inevtiably war will come, and people will die.


I think that more and more even the leftist Israelis understand that there will have to be separation with moving some Jewish and some Muslim population.

There is a new momentum for this idea of sparation and I hope that it will be pursued as soon as possible.

In order for Israel to survive there needs to be a situation where there is an irreversible majority of jews. This means that some Arabs must go live elsewhere.

Yes - a "transfer" is needed and the sooner the better.

[watcher]

Yes there should be a separation. The pa should be separated out of Israel. Israel is not to be divided.

Wasn't "palestine" created by rome when they dispersed much of Israel to various countries leaving a scant few behind bringing in the neighboring peoples to settle in Israel then renaming it "palestine" deriving the name from the old enemy philistine? Now Israel back on the home soil is considered foriegn "occupiers of the land"! Imagine that! Come home and your neighbors call you an intruder who needs to be pushed to the sea.

The only way terrorism will completely stop is when G-D steps in. Of the many instances when G-D intervened in Israels history the one that presently comes to mind is Eliyyahu(Elijah) and the prophets of baal where Eliyyahu mocked them and G-D put them to shame and they were completely destroyed.

There's nothing to be divided in Israel, Israel is the Chosen People in the Promised Land, that is granted to no one else. Israel is to be whole showing appreciation for the fact of receiving the land promised given the same way the Instruction for life has been given to Israel... to be held forever. Anyone against Israel will ultimately meet an unfortunate demise.

[takeo]

My god, watcher, I thought i really heart everything on this board but you managed to surprise me with your extremism. Just finish of the Pals, right? The final solution , right? the Endloesung, right?
So 2000 years ago there only lived indians in the uS, so lets kill or transport to Europe all Americans and give the land back to the indians.
the reality is that two people share the same land and that no single can claim all of it for itself, unless some drastic, nazist methods are used.
But OK, i agree, after all the suffering israel has caused to the palestinians, it will be hard to live in peace. if you really want separation than the first thing that should happen is the dismantling of the settlements, they are illegal and condamned even by the US, and they make separation difficult. the second step would be the total withdrawel from the occupied territories to leave it for the palestinians and give them some parts of Israel were the refugees who can't return to their home-land can live. the Jews living there could leave for Israel. And Yerusalem would be divided in two as it was before the 1967 israeli aggression. this is a realistic plan for separation
Or is it another kind of separation you mean? in fact not separation by dividing the land but putting the palestinians in big concentration camps and clear all the rest for the jews, and the jews only? in fact that 's not separation but apartheid in the best case, and genocide in the worst case. a new chapter in the oppression of the palestinian people would be to destroy their villages and houses to build new jewish setlements and take them to big camps.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
... in fact that 's not separation but apartheid in the best case, and genocide in the worst case.

Please explain how exactly separating between innocent Israelis and islamic terrorists to prevent future Arab mass-murders of jews is "geocide"??

It seems to me that the Palestinian terrorists attacks on Israeli towns with the aim of eradicating the presence of Jewish life in the Jewish homeland is the true genocide.

[takeo]

"Please explain how exactly separating between innocent Israelis and islamic terrorists to prevent future Arab mass-murders of jews is "geocide"??


well, first of all, it are not just the Palestinians who are terrorists and the jews who are innocent victims. Don't forget that those settlements were build on land that belonged to palestinian families and they have not received any compensation for it, sometimes there houses were destroyed and their villages had to be abandoned for building those Jewish settlements. I hope you can understand that such acts create hate and terrorism. those settlements and israeli military posts made life of palestinians as a hell.
second, not all palestinians are terrorists, as you say it it is like the entire population must be punished because of what some terrorists did. This is illigal according to the Geneva-convention but as well a racist policy, it is to condamn someone to live in concentrationcamps because he is palestinian and his presence may hurt Jewish settlers (who don't belong there in the first place, and some Jewish settlers have committed slaughtering on innocent palestinian families). It would be so much easier to just remove the settlements, but I guess this doesn't comply to the Israeli policy of "nothing to the Palestinians, everything to the Jews". To replace an entire population in concentrationcamps (not only terrorists) is genocide. Only 25% of palestinians want to eradicate Israel, the other 75 % only wants their own houses back, their own land back (not even israel but only the occupied territories). Is this genocide against the jewish people, I don't think so! I think more Israeli want genocide against the Palestinians (at least if this board is representative for Israeli opinion) than vice versa.

"It seems to me that the Palestinian terrorists attacks on Israeli towns with the aim of eradicating the presence of Jewish life in the Jewish homeland is the true genocide"

[watcher]

That's why those "palestinians" must leave, all the suffering they caused Israel! It is difficult to live with people who don't want you to exist! If they want to give up their terrorist attitudes and live in peace within the borders of Israel that's fine! In fact welcome! But all the suicide bombers and genocidal maniacs must leave!
If that's what "palestine" is all about then they should give up that recently contrived name and go back to their own countries, really they must stop pretending they have any claim of any part of Israel.
Israel was renamed "palestine" but only for a short while... Israel is back!!

[aid]

This is reply to Monsiuer Takeo (is he Japanese?) claims about Palestine belonging to Arabs:


Alphonse de Lamartine visited the land in 1835. In his book, "Recollections of the East," he writes "Outside the gates of Jerusalem we saw no living object, heard no living sound…." None other than the famous American author Mark Twain, who visited the Land of Israel in 1867, confirms this. In his book "The Innocents Abroad" he writes, "A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action. We reached Tabor safely…. We never saw a human being on the whole journey." Even the British Consul in Palestine reported in 1857, "The country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is that of a body of population…"

In fact, according to official Ottoman Turk census figures, in 1882, in the entire Land of Israel, there were only 141 000 Muslims, both Arab and non-Arab. This number was to skyrocket to 650 000 Arabs by 1922, a 450% increase in only 40 years. By 1938 that number would become over 1 million or an 800% increase in only 56 years. Population growth was especially high in areas where Jews lived. Where did all these Arabs come from?

According to the Arabs the huge increase in their numbers was due to natural childbirth. In 1944, for example, they alleged that the natural increase (births minus deaths) of Arabs in the Land of Israel was the astounding figure of 334 per 1000. That would make it roughly three times the corresponding rate for the same year of Lebanon and Syria and almost four times that of Egypt, considered amongst the highest in the world. Unlikely, to say the least. But if the massive increase was not due to natural births, then were did all these Arabs come from?

All the evidence points to the neighboring Arab states of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. In 1922 the British Governor of the Sinai noted that "illegal immigration was not only going on from the Sinai, but also from Transjordan and Syria."

In 1930 the British Mandate sponsored Hope-Simpson Report noted that "unemployment lists are being swollen by immigrants from Trans-Jordania" and "illicit immigration through Syria and across the northern frontier of Palestine is material". Indeed the Arabs themselves bare witness to this trend. For example, the governor of the Syrian district of Hauran, Tewfik Bey el Hurani, admitted in 1934 that in a single period of only a few months over 30 000 Syrians from Hauran had moved to the Land of Israel. Even British Prime Minister Winston Churchill noted the Arab influx. Churchill, a veteran of the early years of the British mandate in the Land of Israel, noted in 1939 that "far from being persecuted the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied."

Far from displacing the Arabs, as they claimed, the Jews were the very reason the Arabs chose to settle in the Land of Israel. Jobs provided by newly established Zionist industry and agriculture lured them there just as Israeli construction and industry provides most Land of Israel Arabs with their main source of income today. Malcolm MacDonald, one of the principal authors of the British White Paper of 1939, which restricted Jewish immigration to the Land of Israel admitted (conservatively) that were it not for a Jewish presence the Arab population would have been little more than half of what it actually was. Today, when due to the latest "Intifada", Arabs from the territories under 35 are no longer allowed into pre-1967 Israel to work, unemployment has skyrocketed to over 40% and most rely on European aid packages to survive.

Just to add to this, already in the middle of the XIX Century the majority of the population of Jerusalem was Jewish.

The land of Israel is Israel. Period.

Arabs there can have their state, but that state cannot threaten Israel. That's the absolute necessity and sine quo non of any settlement. No Katyushas, no explosives, no anti-aircraft missiles for Arabs in Palestine. Or else there is no Arab state there ever.

[takeo]

whatcher, in fact i think the same as you!
they can have their land back and move to israel if they want to leave peacefully in/next to Israel, that is what 75% of the Palestinians want! (and the other 25% will disappear quickly if they see their lifes improoving as a result of this. israel and Palestine should conclude a longlasting peace-treaty controlled by (for example) US-troops in both countries. Palestinian state can have weapons but not use them as long as Israel doesn't attack them first, the same for Israel. I'm sure Palestinians will be so happy with their independance that they will not endanger everything by attacking Israel, a war they can't win (unlike the current popular uprising) and loosing international support.
about demographics and history:
this is from stanford-university (as far as i know not anti-Israel biased):
"In 1516 the Ottoman Turks, under Sultan Selim I, overthrew the Mamluks, and Palestine began four centuries under Ottoman rule. Beginning in 1887, Palestine was divided into the administrative divisions (sing. mutasarrifiyah) of Nabulus and Acre, both of which were linked with the vilayet (largest Ottoman administrative division) of Beirut and the autonomous mutasarrifiyah of Jerusalem, which dealt directly with Constantinople. Demographically its population was overwhelmingly Arab, mainly Muslim, but with an important Christian merchant and professional class residing in the cities. The Jewish population of Palestine before 1880 was relatively small, boasting 25,000 inhabitants, a majority of who lived in Jerusalem. "

No doubt that palestine was inhabited by Palestinians in the first place, and only a small minority of Jews. It may not be the land of Palestinians ONLY, but it is certainly not the land of Jews ONLY either. and about the "influx" of Arabs from other countries, could be, but it is the first time i hear this (where did you have your sources about this?) and for sure even without that the Palestinians would have been the majority in Palestine untill 1948. And the Jewish influx was a lot more important.

[takeo]

"pre-1967 Israel ", I think you mean Israel as only pre-1967 territories are legally a part of Israel!

[aid]

Genocide?

You could write Mein Kampf, mon cher.

[watcher]

There is a reason for the influx of Jews... The land is Israel simply put. "palestine" is a myth, a creation to cover over Israel, the people are not "palestinians" they're people from other countries who have absolutely no rightful claim on Israel whatsoever other than to try to hold onto the created name "palestine" in order to pretend they belong there. Only the peace minded will be tolerated in Israel.

[NewsGuy]

Adding to aid's excellent history of the land of Israel the following thought:

When the Arabs keep on digging anywhere in the ground, and ancient Hebrew artifacts pop up, don't they realize that the Arabs are in fact the strangers in the Jewish homeland?

I mean, even if someone does not believe in the biblical birthright of the Jews, it is plain to see the original Jewish ownership of the land reflected in the archaeological findings that are buried everywhere.

hence, tangible and indisputable proof that the entire land of Israel from the sea to past the Jordan river was always Jewish property until it was forcefully stolen from the Jews and claimed by foreign invaders.

[Negev]

Getting back to my original point in this thread:

I repeat that a total separation is the only sane option for Israel and the Palestinians.

To make a realistic border some israeli settlements will need to be dismantled and some palestinian settlement will need to be dismantled too.

[takeo]

:D
yeah right. Jewish artefacts have been found in the ground, and nobody will contest that Jews lived there 2000 years ago, but so what? That is ancient history and 2000 years is not "a short time". If every people who inhabited lands 2000 years ago can claim "their land" back, than the Irish celts have the right to return to France, the native Americans can claim New York as their city and push out all the negro's, Jews, italians, The Greeks can send the Turks back to Central Asia and reconquer Minor asia (full of Greek artefacts).
that is bullshit and you know it.
But 80 years ago is not such a long time ago and my article from stanford historical library showed clearly that palestinians inhabited the land and that since Jews have come as guests from everywhere around the world.
Yes, newsguy, you choose to ignore of course the article i copied as it is dangerous for your dogma that "Israel has always been Jewish".
Where did i use the word genocide in my latest post on this board? Yes I'm a nazi because i defend the Palestinians, i know that by now.
The total sparation is unlikely as both people share the same land. It can only be if Israel gives up all occupied territories and parts of Israel, otherwise there isn't enough place for all etnic cleansed refugees. I think it is an unrealistic solution, Jews and Palestinians can and must live together, but only in equality and with each their own state.

[aid]

nobody will contest that Jews lived there 2000 years ago, but so what?

The chief Pali negotiator Erekat denied that the Jewish Temple stood on the Temple Mount stright into Ben Ami's eyes.

The Grand Mufti, Arafat himself have said the same thing many times.

In fact, many mainstream Palis deny exactly this.

"So what" is anti-Semitic abomination. It is not "so what", but Jewish rights to Jewish land, this and the fact of interrupted link between Eretz Israle and the people of Israel, uninterruped chain of the generations of Jews living in in Eretz Israel, Jerusalem especially.

You, with you ignorance and parroting of all Arab propaganda, will be the last man to cover the sun with palm of your hand - as the Arabs say.

[takeo]

So i cover the sun (or is it the "Truth" with what i say) with the palm of my hand and I am an anti-semit because I said that nobody can claim their land back after leaving 2000 years ago.

So I will tell this to the Greeks to get ready for war with the Turks who stole their land 12 centuries ago but after a "few generations" want to return to "Ersatz Greece".(even the stories of Homeros were situated in current Turkey). And all the Americans on this board should pack their bags to Israel and give your house to a native American. other Americans have to return to Great-Brittain, Holland, Germany, ... I don't want to use the word "nazism" again, but it is a fact that Hitler said many times that only people belonging to the true German race living since 2000 years in Germany have to right to remain there.

[takeo]

And about the statement of some Palestinians that Jews never lived there, that is as much biased, politically motivated and historically incorrect as the claim that most Palestinians were imported in the 30's from other arab countries.

[aid]

Of course you are an Arab extremist.

You, along with the Arab exremists, are denying Israel's legitimacy, and Israel's unbreakable ties with the land of Israel, with Yerushalaim.

These are brazen claims, the height of audacity.

They are unacceptable and no peace settlement is possible based on this mad claims, Monsiuer.





:p

[takeo]

Never ever i said Israel doesn't have the right to exist, i said Israel doesn't have the right to exclude Palestinian refugees and to occupy regions that don't belong to israel (Gaza, westbank, eastern yerusalem). Don't twist my words and no lies please!
I also say that Israel has the right to exist because since more than 50 years many Jewish people have established their life in Israel(what used to be Palestine, now Palestine is only the occupie territories), and it would be unhuman to send them back to countries where they are not wanted anymore. But not because the Jews should have a kind of historic exclusive claim on Israel.
The only extremist here is you, aid.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Never ever i said Israel doesn't have the right to exist, i said Israel doesn't have the right to exclude Palestinian refugees and to occupy regions that don't belong to israel (Gaza, westbank, eastern yerusalem).

To many people, bringing in millions of palestinians into Israel who actively vow that eliminating Israel is their ultimate goal, is the same as saying that Israel has no right to exist.

As for your second point, again you ignore the fact that Israel has already given the vast majority of those territories to the Palestinians, and was interrupted from negotiating the future of the rest of those territories due to Islamic terrorism against Israel.

[takeo]

As i told you before, the refugees wishing to return to their ancestral homes and cities are not those who hate Jews, they just want to live there and be citizens of israel, as the palestinians already living in israel. They will still be a minority, but a more important minority than they are now, and i hope together with left-wing Israeli parties they can be included in a new future government, what would be the real indication that Israel is not a racist and real multi-etnic state.
about the occupied territories, you know already why these offers had not been accepted. Israel should make new offers to end the occupation that are acceptable for the Palestinians as well.

[aid]

Originally posted by takeo
As i told you before, the refugees wishing to return to their ancestral homes and cities are not those who hate Jews, they just want to live there and be citizens of israel, as the palestinians already living in israel. They will still be a minority, but a more important minority than they are now, and i hope together with left-wing Israeli parties they can be included in a new future government, what would be the real indication that Israel is not a racist and real multi-etnic state.
about the occupied territories, you know already why these offers had not been accepted. Israel should make new offers to end the occupation that are acceptable for the Palestinians as well.

1. How possibly can you know they are "not those"? Would you give a written guarantee to Israel they are not? Why do not France and Belgium just accept them?

2. There are no Pali refugees left whatsoever:

a) it is unprecedented for people to be considered refugees for decades. In all other cases once a refugee is settled somewhere and obtains an id, he/she is not a refugee anymore. Usually, it is a few weeks/months affair.

b)there are very few Palis who were born in Israel outside Israel. They all are older than 53 years. People not born in a country in question cannot possibly be considered refugees from that country. All Jews would be refugees according to your standards.

3. Israel is a Jewish State created for ingathering and providing refuge to Jews victims of anti-Semtism in various countries, such as France, for example. Israel does not strive to be a multi-ethnic society. US does, Canada does, Australia does, France does. So they should accept whoever they want to accept.

Israel is for Jews, Sir. Remember it.

[NewsGuy]

From the JPost (01-09-02):

Powell condemns Palestinian arms smuggling


US Secretary of State Colin Powell has condemned this afternoon the attempt to smuggle arms and ammunition aboard the Karine A vessel.

Powell also said it is difficult to imagine the arms were meant for a destination other than the Palestinian Authority, Israel Radio reported.

The US yesterday acknowledged Palestinians were involved in the smuggling of illegal arms aboard the Karine A and said the shipment, intercepted by Israel last week, is of "deep concern."

[takeo]

1. How possibly can you know they are "not those"? Would you give a written guarantee to Israel they are not? Why do not France and Belgium just accept them?



"a) it is unprecedented for people to be considered refugees for decades. In all other cases once a refugee is settled somewhere and obtains an id, he/she is not a refugee anymore. Usually, it is a few weeks/months affair. "

This is not true, even bosnian refugees settled in france for many years and receiving permission to live here returned to bosnia in a part controlled by another etnic group.

"b)there are very few Palis who were born in Israel outside Israel. They all are older than 53 years. People not born in a country in question cannot possibly be considered refugees from that country. All Jews would be refugees according to your standards. "

Just read the geneva convention: children and even grand-children of etnic cleansed families can also claim the right to return. This was of course the policy of Israel: wait long enough and they'll choose somewhere else to live or will die. well, this policy will not work.

"3. Israel is a Jewish State created for ingathering and providing refuge to Jews victims of anti-Semtism in various countries, such as France, for example. Israel does not strive to be a multi-ethnic society. US does, Canada does, Australia does, France does. So they should accept whoever they want to accept. "

israel IS a multi-cultural society, as it is a country were both jews and arabs lived for centuries and still live /should live according to the international community. Everyone who denies this is discriminating a part of the population of israel.

"Israel is for Jews, Sir. Remember it." Yes, as Germany was for the Germans 60 years ago...

[takeo]

sorry forgot this one:

. "How possibly can you know they are "not those"? Would you give a written guarantee to Israel they are not? Why do not France and Belgium just accept them? "

because the ones who hate israel, all Hamas supporters, have declared on several occations/documentories/polls in Libanon that they will not go to israel unless the land has been liberated from the "Jews". that is a minority however, all Palestinians i know, even if they live now in a wealthy country, want to go back to the house/region where they /their parents were born and they don't care to live in israel under israeli laws. They will be citizens of Israel and have the right to vote too.

[Not Beilin]

Today's cold-blooded lynching of the Israeli contractor and the shooting death of 2 Israeli motorists proves the immediate need for unilateral separation between Israelis and Arabs.

Just like in the zoo, you need to separate between the dangerouos animals and between the people, so too the Arabs must be separated from the Israelis.

Now I'm not saying that all Arabs are animals, but there are enough of them to make unilateral separation a must, including a population transfer of both Israelis and Palestinians so that a good border can be built.

[takeo]

bullshit
this acts are totally pretictable and a consequence of the die-hard policy of the Israeli government. Of course palestinians will not just look how they are getting oppressed, houses destroyed, and other terror, they will take revenge, sometimes against innocent victims (however i consider the settlers who voluntarily stole land and choose to live in a dangerous situation and are armed not to be really innocent). i think a lot worse is to come, as hamas and jihad did withdraw from the pact proposed by arafat in his newyearspeach. After this the violence did mostly stop, but sharon continued his policy, it was a very serious mistake to miss this opportunity. Separation is not possible as long as settlers are living in the center of jewish towns. today left-wing israeli who want peace came to the streets to protest against those settlers. Besides separation will never be possible because all jews and pals have the right to live in Israel. The only real efficient separation would be the etnic cleansing of all of palestine, but that would provoke a very strong international reaction against Israel that could be deathly for the Jewish state(Israel can not survive without American and european support). by the way on the long term it would further escalate the situation and lead to the destroyal of Israel.

[takeo]

i mean palestinian towns

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Point 1: Separation is not possible as long as settlers are living in the center of jewish towns. today left-wing israeli who want peace came to the streets to protest against those settlers. Besides separation will never be possible because all jews and pals have the right to live in Israel.

Point 2: The only real efficient separation would be the etnic cleansing of all of palestine, but that would provoke a very strong international reaction against Israel that could be deathly for the Jewish state(Israel can not survive without American and european support). by the way on the long term it would further escalate the situation and lead to the destroyal of Israel.

Point 1: Looks like some Israeli settlements in the West bank and Gaza may need to be dismantled, and some Palestinian settlements in Jerusalem, Haifa, Beer Shevea, etc., will also need to be dismantled, so that a defensible international border can be built.

Point 2: The ethnic cleansing is what the Palestinians are attempting to do by mass-murdering innocent Israelis on a daily basis.

As for European support, it is not there. Israel does not need it, and never had it, in any event. True, there is some trade, but better to give that up than allow the Arabs and their European oil slaves to chop up Israel in a way that will guarantee Israel's total destruction.

[takeo]

"Point 1: Looks like some Israeli settlements in the West bank and Gaza may need to be dismantled, and some Palestinian settlements in Jerusalem, Haifa, Beer Shevea, etc., will also need to be dismantled, so that a defensible international border can be built. "

wrong answer, palestine belongs to the palestinians, before 1967, no Jews at all lived there. Israel belongs to the Jews, but has to allow back the refugees who were the majority before 1948. That's why separation is impossible. nonne of the suicide attackers came from Israel, because palestinian Israeli problems are not serious enough to drive them to such desperate acts. Anyway, separation of etnic groups is something despisable and fascist. I think palestinians would agree with jewish settlers remaining in palestine, on condition that they comply to palestinian law, get treated equally (no more water-ressources, better land etc.) and give up their arms.
But if you really want separation yes, than there is only one solution, give parts of israel to palestine (and i mean Israel, not palestine)

"Point 2: The ethnic cleansing is what the Palestinians are attempting to do by mass-murdering innocent Israelis on a daily basis. "

No, that is terrorism, etnic cleansing is destroying 1000's of homes for building settlements for another etnic group, refusing millions of people who lived for centuries in a land to allow them back, making concentration camps of whole towns or neighbourhoods(as the nazi's did in warsaw).

"As for European support, it is not there. Israel does not need it, and never had it, in any event. True, there is some trade, but better to give that up than allow the Arabs and their European oil slaves to chop up Israel in a way that will guarantee Israel's total destruction."

Without European trade Israel would loose its most important trade partner, it would destroy the economy. Without American support, Israel would be death. If this is your choice rather than an equal and just peace beneficial for both parts, well that's your choice.

[NewsGuy]

"palestine belongs to the palestinians, before 1967, no Jews at all lived there."

Completely false. Next...

"Israel belongs to the Jews, but has to allow back the refugees who were the majority before 1948. That's why separation is impossible. "

No, separation is very possible if there is the will to do it.

"Anyway, separation of etnic groups is something despisable and fascist."

It is the official law of the land in Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia and, de facto, the reality in most other countries, incuding the US and Europe.

"I think palestinians would agree with jewish settlers remaining in palestine, on condition that they comply to palestinian law, get treated equally (no more water-ressources, better land etc.) and give up their arms. "

Nope. The missiles being shot by Palestinians into Gush Katif, many other Israeli border towns, and Hebron, are proof that the only way palestinians will have Jews living next to them is if the Jews are lying 6 feet underground.

"But if you really want separation yes, than there is only one solution, give parts of israel to palestine (and i mean Israel, not palestine) "

That's been done already. Israel has given plenty of its land to Palestinians. The issue is not how much land, but if there can be a defensible international border.

" making concentration camps of whole towns or neighbourhoods(as the nazi's did in warsaw)."

I don't really know what you're talking about. It sounds to me like a combination of Communist propaganda mixed in with Tales of a Thousand and One Arabian nights.

"Without European trade Israel would loose its most important trade partner, it would destroy the economy. Without American support, Israel would be death. If this is your choice rather than an equal and just peace beneficial for both parts, well that's your choice."

I disagree on all these last points as well. EU is not Israel's "most important" trade partner. And Israel would survive without American support. In fact, it may learn to stand on its own two feet finally.

The fact is that if Israel did what is best for it, i.e., unilateral separation with a proper international border, then the world would be angry with Israel for maybe 6 months. There would be all kinds of UN noises for a while, and then things would get back to normal and the people of Israel could finally live as any other nation.

[takeo]

"No, separation is very possible if there is the will to do it. "

Everything is possible if the will is there, including murder and terror. But one has to take into consideration the consequences...



"It is the official law of the land in Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia and, de facto, the reality in most other countries, incuding the US and Europe. "

maybe in Saoudi arabia, yes, but than it only separates foreigners, not nationals of saoudi arabia and original inhabitants. In Europe there is NO etnic separation at all, in my neighbouring living Africans, Arabs, Asians, latin americans, eastern Europeans, ... this happens only in totalitarian and fascist countries like Saoudi arabia and Israel. I think Haider in Austria has made some laws for etnic separation, and your good fascist friend Le Pen made some proposals in France (nobody taking serious fotunately). Fascists all over the world, unite!



"Nope. The missiles being shot by Palestinians into Gush Katif, many other Israeli border towns, and Hebron, are proof that the only way palestinians will have Jews living next to them is if the Jews are lying 6 feet underground. "

This is because today there is nO equality and the colonists came there as a conqequence of oppression and destroyal of palestinian villages. Of course this provokes violence.



"That's been done already. Israel has given plenty of its land to Palestinians. The issue is not how much land, but if there can be a defensible international border. "

No, an equal partition would be half for the palestinians and half for the jews of the toral area of israel and Palestine, like the much sited UN-plan in 1948 that you always mention.
The issue is exactly how much land, millions of palestinians can't live on a tiny piece of land. the security of Israel can't be on the back of millions of people. if you think this is possible, there will not be any security, because as we can see daily on the news, inequality and oppression will always have consequences, no matter how much security mesures you take, and the more injustice, the more violence and insecurity. No land= no peace. Face it or die.



"I don't really know what you're talking about. It sounds to me like a combination of Communist propaganda mixed in with Tales of a Thousand and One Arabian nights. "

Putting people together in big camps or neighbourhoods surrounded by military, because they are palestinians, is a gettho, or can this word only be used if the Jews are victims instead of perpetrators?



"I disagree on all these last points as well. EU is not Israel's "most important" trade partner. And Israel would survive without American support. In fact, it may learn to stand on its own two feet finally. "

well you may stand on your two feetall alone the same way North Korea is doing. you will starve on your two feet. Without European trade (according to CNN 60% of Israel's trade) and without American help (all israeli weapons come from the US) Irael will not be the mighty regional power it is now.

"he fact is that if Israel did what is best for it, i.e., unilateral separation with a proper international border, then the world would be angry with Israel for maybe 6 months. There would be all kinds of UN noises for a while, and then things would get back to normal and the people of Israel could finally live as any other nation"

it is not what is best for Israel. what is best for any country is to live in peace with its neighbours, such acts which would be destructive for the palestinians would lead to more war and terrorism and more international condamnation of Israel. i'm sure the US will no longer veto any UN-resolution against israel any more in that case. and i'm sure the EU would impose a trade-ban on israel. It would have no more friends and really be isolated. than of course you will start whining that the whole world is anti-semitic.
israel would not live as any other nation, it would have further provoked its arab neighbours, and finally unite them to destroy israel all together. For the uS Israel would be even more a pain in the *** as its now and it's not unimaginable that US would finally stop defending israel or imposing deathlines on its government. Many people in the US favour such actions already, as many knowit is the most important cause of the problems in the middle East for the US and troubles its relation with the oil-rich countries.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
for the jews of the toral area of israel and Palestine, like the much sited UN-plan in 1948 that you always mention.
The issue is exactly how much land, millions of palestinians can't live on a tiny piece of land. the security of Israel can't be on the back of millions of people.

...

No land= no peace. Face it or die.

Again, the Palestinians were offered plenty of land. But it never stopped the Islamic terrorists who say publicly that they want ALL of Israel, not just half the Jewish land that the UN gave to the Arabs. This is the basis of the problem: The Palestinians want to extreminate all Jews.

Now if the Palestinians have an problem of over-population, then instead of tryiong to steal Jewish land, they can move to their first Palestinian state of Jordan, which has more than 90% of its land vacant. It is several times the size of Israel, and a perfect place for the Palestinians.

Other than that, people in all civilized countries take measures against over-population. It's called birth control. Maybe the Palestinians need to think about emulating civilized people in this regard.

In any event, what the Palestinians do in their bedrooms is certainly not Israel's problem.

[NewsGuy]

Regarding unilateral separation between Israel and the Palestinians, this was publishied today in Haaretz:

"The National Security Council will present plans to the government Tuesday for beefing up the security of Jerusalem and of the "seam line" between Israel and the West Bank.

The council's plan for the capital, known as "Enveloping Jerusalem," was in fact passed on to the cabinet some time ago, but until now has not been seriously discussed, both for budgetary and for political reasons: The plan is very expensive, and right-wing MKs object to it because they say it essentially constitutes a redivision of Jerusalem.

In light of the recent wave of terror attacks in the capital, however, there is now renewed interest in the plan, and NSC Chairman Major General Uzi Dayan will, therefore, formally present it today to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

The plan, which was drafted jointly by Dayan and Jerusalem Police Chief Mickey Levy, calls for the construction of a wall along 11 kilometers of the seam line between East and West Jerusalem, the setting up of roadblocks between the eastern and western parts of the city, the installation of video cameras along the seam line, the establishment of five Border Police companies that would patrol the seam line, and the introduction of additional identification technologies such as thermal sensors and night-vision equipment. "

* * *

Sounds like a defensible international border to me.

[Solon]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
The plan, which was drafted jointly by Dayan and Jerusalem Police Chief Mickey Levy, calls for the construction of a wall along 11 kilometers of the seam line between East and West Jerusalem

Sorry to say that Israel should not give prizes to PA terrorism by handing over chunks of Jerusalem.

Instead, if the Palestinians cannot live as good neighbors beside Israel then the Arabs need to leave and go to one of their 22 Arab countries where they are free to do whatever they want to each other but not to Israel.

Israeli tanks can show them the way to the door. That's my idea of unilateral separation.