why was arafat so quick to reject barak's proposal?? [Archive]

Thair

04-03-2002, 10:26 AM

Did of you examine the proposals that Barak laid down?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Israel loves to say in each and every negotiation that Palestinian refugees have no right to return. The right to return has been passed by the UN, but who cares what the world says? This is an obvious case of apartheid practice on behalf of Israel. Russian Jews who have no heritage in Palestine (other than being Jewish) can easily go to Israel and receive a permanent residency. I, for example, have cultural roots and Islamic ties to that land ( Yes, I'm a Palestinian Muslim. The latter part is far more important than the former, though.). However, thanks to good all Israeli policy if I were to visit my hometown of Al-Beirah, I have a 3 month visa then I must leave. Is this justice? I am not even a refugee, and this treatment is what I have to face. Imagine what refugees must go through whom were driven in 1948 by Zionist gangs. Also, the "Intifada" started when Sharon with 1,000 guards made a "visit" to Al-Aqsa. Just place Sadam Hussein "visiting" the wall with a 1,000 guards. I can assure you CNN will cover it for a month.

Ezra

04-03-2002, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by Thair
The right to return has been passed by the UN, but who cares what the world says? This is an obvious case of apartheid practice on behalf of Israel.

The UN also stated the right of Israel to live in peace and asked Palestinian to stop suicide bombing that kills ONLY innocent. Have the Palestinian listened? Who now don't care with the world's decision?

Originally posted by Thair
However, thanks to good all Israeli policy if I were to visit my hometown of Al-Beirah, I have a 3 month visa then I must leave. Is this justice?

Ask the suicide bombers to stop killing innocent, and life can be better and probably ONLY THAN can you stay in your town more than 3 months with one way or another!

Shuki

04-03-2002, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by Thair
This is an obvious case of apartheid practice on behalf of Israel. Russian Jews who have no heritage in Palestine (other than being Jewish) can easily go to Israel and receive a permanent residency. I, for example, have cultural roots and Islamic ties to that land ( Yes, I'm a Palestinian Muslim. The latter part is far more important than the former, though.). However, thanks to good all Israeli policy if I were to visit my hometown of Al-Beirah, I have a 3 month visa then I must leave. Is this justice? I am not even a refugee, and this treatment is what I have to face. Also, the "Intifada" started when Sharon with 1,000 guards made a "visit" to Al-Aqsa.

You make the claim to cultural and religious ties to Israel, so why can't Russian Jews, who may have an even stronger claim.

Furthermore the nonsense you spew about Sharon visiting Har-ha Bayit (The Temple Mount) is unreasonable in its unspoken assertion that a Jew has no right to visit the holiest site for Jews. That is just ridiculous. It has already been documented that Arafat was going to launch the second intifada regardless of Sharon's behavior.

continued

Shuki

04-03-2002, 12:26 PM

Continued from the last post

Let's return for a moment to your mention of a visa. There is nothing unusual in a country issuing a 3 month visa for a visit. That means that you are not being denied entry (try being Jewish and going to Mecca or Medina) and that you have every opportunity to request an extension be it through a student or work visa.

I am not going to bury my head in the sand and say that everything is hunky-dory. But from where I sit it looks awfully strange for Palestinians to complain about the US and Israel and not about their fellow Arabs who could care less about them.

Egypt and Jordan illegally occupied Israeli land from '48-'67. During that time they never offered it to the Palestinians. why is that? Why has there never been a Palestinian nation governed by Palestinians. History says that someone is making up a story here, and its not Israel.

Thair

04-03-2002, 12:58 PM

First of all, a Palestinian with religious ties has more right to a land than a Russian with only religious ties. How can I say that? Two ties > one tie. See, simple math.

Also, to reply to one of my repliants, Sharon can "visit." "1,000 guards" does not equal "visit." They equal an incursion. The reason its good to be a Palestinian American is that I hear both sides of the story, more or less. I hear the rubbish on CNN, and then I watch Al Jazeera and saw worshippers in Al Aqsa mosque throwing shoes at "Sharon's guards." Also, if Israelis are outraged at the Passover incident, must I remind them that they set the precedent. Al Aqsa mosque was burned by Israeli soldiers and in Hebron if I am correct an "insane" Jew slaughtered the worshippers. From now on, by the above standard, the man who attacked people at Passover is also insane. In keeping with the spirit of lack of double standards (America's favorite tool), it is only fair to equate people who attack worshippers from either side as insane.

As far as someone remarking about the 3 month visa, it is very unusual. Why can a Russian Jew live there forever, while I have to go every 3 months? "Stop the suicide bombers," one of you thoughtfully commented. Well, govern with justice, and people will not attack you. Did it ever occur to any of you that people hate Americans and Israelis because of lack of justice -or double standard (French can't stand Americans, and Germans can't stand any of the mentioned)? Nobody hates Canadians, for example, because they mind their own business and do not seek to subjugate the world or in Israel's case, the Middle East.

As far as Jordan and Egypt, they are puppet states created by colonial powers. If one wants to attack corrrupt, good-for-nothing Arab leaders, the British liers are far more worthy of attack (1918 - 1948, 30 years compared to 19). After WWI, the Arabs were to be united in one nation. Of course, that spelled disaster for the West who did not want such a super power in the region. The solution was good all divide and conquer. Thus, one has Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and other ridiculos nations formed out of one unified nation.

Shuki

04-03-2002, 01:49 PM

<First of all, a Palestinian with religious ties has more right to a land than a Russian with only religious ties. How can I say that? Two ties > one tie. See, simple math. >

No, that is not really true, nor nccessarily accurate. We can draw a genetic line through the ages to the Cohenim (priestly class) which we have factual evidence lived in Israel.

DNA testing has shown that Jews of the priestly class have a genetic connection and history. A history that we can tie right back into Israel, making two ties, which equals your so called two ties.

IF you want to play historical games we can go back to discussing the fine Muslim game of "lets build a mosque on top of a church/and or synagogue and declare it Muslim holy land." Truth is that Al-Aqsa was illegally built on top of the Temple Mount as was the Dome of the Rock, but you don't want to talk about that.

What about the Arab riots in Hebron, say the ones in 1929. How do you explain the murderous spree they went on there. No occupation, no IDF to blame.

Shuki

04-03-2002, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by Thair

As far as someone remarking about the 3 month visa, it is very unusual. Why can a Russian Jew live there forever, while I have to go every 3 months? "Stop the suicide bombers," one of you thoughtfully commented. Well, govern with justice, and people will not attack you. Did it ever occur to any of you that people hate Americans and Israelis because of lack of justice -or double standard (French can't stand Americans, and Germans can't stand any of the mentioned)? Nobody hates Canadians, for example, because they mind their own business and do not seek to subjugate the world or in Israel's case, the Middle East.

As far as Jordan and Egypt, they are puppet states created by colonial powers. If one wants to attack corrrupt, good-for-nothing Arab leaders, the British liers are far more worthy of attack (1918 - 1948, 30 years compared to 19). After WWI, the Arabs were to be united in one nation. Of course, that spelled disaster for the West who did not want such a super power in the region. The solution was good all divide and conquer. Thus, one has Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and other ridiculos nations formed out of one unified nation.

Sorry, there is nothing unusual about a three month visa. I am Jewish and I cannot expect to get more than a three month visa in Israel without going through the proper channels, ie Student or work visa. That is common in most countries.

To say otherwise is just ignorant. And your comment about Jordan and Egypt being puppet states is just laughable. Why, because King Hussein had to line up Arafats men and shoot them to stop a little coup. Because Nasser and has big mouth started a number of little skirmishes that they could not finish.

The Arab countries at best are corrupt third world dictatorships who foster hatred against Israel to protect themselves. Notice that they have kept Palestinians in refugee camps. Did you ever wonder what happened to the millions of European refugees after WW2. They were taken care of because Europe didn't have any interest in protecting corrupt governments based upon lies.

Of course the Europeans have their own issues and are lucky not to be bowing down to Hitler idols.

victot

04-03-2002, 02:02 PM

hey thair, i think it's cool that you are palestinian...
i find it hard to listen to leftists, or "do-gooders" or arabs/muslims who aren't palestinian who relentlessly villafy israel, cuz i dunno...
i think they should mind their own business... the only people who i think israel should feel bad about, or feel guilty for are the palestinians... so it is cool that you are one.

anyways... jews only have 1 country, and that is israel. when they took the land from the palestinians, at the time, it was sort of in self-defense, escaping from the ruins of the holocaust and what not...
and they were attacked by various arab armies at the time, weren't they? war of independance? it was that war that lead to the refugee problem.

if all the palestinian refugees returned, it would be an arab country, and not a jewish country. there are many arab countries, and only the 1 jewish country...
and as far as racism or aparthied goes... i don't understand that argument so much in this care... that's all the jews have.
israel's existance, as it is now, would so radically change if all the refugees returned... israel is not refusing refugees cuz of economic, or convenience reasons... israel would ceast to exist as it does today if the refugees returned.

couldn't something be worked out with the palestinian refugees other than the return back to israel?
if israel took back all the refugees, i don't see why arafat, or anyone else would care about any other issue... oh well.

i guess the grudge is for palestinians to bear... but asking israel to accept terms which would lead to such a radical change in its identity... i dunno ... that's a lot to ask of a country, particularly since it is the only one of its kind...
given how tremendously important israel is for jews... don't be surprised if just blowing up israeli civilians leads to a strong military response.

i wish "fairness" could be worked out some other way.

anyways, about the united states... i do think they try to be moral and fair...
if the united states didn't help israel, israel would probably have been obliterated by now...
and with the exception of stopping the obliteration of israel, they aren't even that pro-israel. they are a sweet allie for israel to have, don't get me wrong, but they aren't that passionate.

peace out i suppose...

Shuki

04-03-2002, 02:10 PM

Thair, believe me when I say that I do not think that Israel is completely blameless. But our claim is just as strong if not stronger.

For better or worse things happened in 1948. If you look at both sides and consider that the truth is in the middle than you can say that both are entitled to a state.

The problem is that so many bad things have happened it is hard to trust anyone. Without trust, how can we move forward.

When we look at the situation as objectively as possible Israel and the Jews are not being offered a bounty for killing Palestinians. No one will pay my father if I decide to go and kill Palestinian children.

In Europe Jews are not burning down Mosques.

Why should we believe that Palestinians are going to leave us in peace.

Thair

04-03-2002, 02:22 PM

Apparently, some people slept through world history class. As far as your problem with the three month visa, can you honestly tell me that if you applied for a citizenship that you would be denied? I can probably apply for student vias and that sort, but the right to live in my country is out of the question. Also, it has been common practice for Israel to import Jews. Take Ethiopia, for example. People from this country are Jews who are treated like dirt in Israel because of skin color. Nevetheless, Israel needed people to populate the land. After all, Israelis are a small bunch. Why do you think they're terrified in Israel even though they have a 2.5 to 1 kill ratio ( 1000 Palestinians, 400 Israelis)? Its because Israeli growth population cannot support those deaths ( By the way, a proof of how Europen Israelis are).

As far as refugee camps, hello anyone there? Negotiations with Israelis and Palestinians have failed because of unwilling resolve on Israeli side not to let Palestinians back into their homes while Russians can come as they please.

As far as Arabs regimes, they are corrupt cowards like their Israeli counterparts. As far as Al Aqsa, Jews have no authentic, unbiased proof that their temple built by Solomon was bulit there. In fact, if you look at the wall, it was preserved by Omar bin Khattab. He said let all of the Abrahamic religions worship there, for the Christians made it a pigstyle. Also, if you examine the history of Jerusalem (assuming that I for the moment will entertain your ridiculous notion), it is full of people buliding over rubble. Do you wish to blame Arabs for building on rubble ( Correct me if I am wrong but the Romans leveled your beloved temple. So now people must reserve the land for 2000 years for Zionists to come and claim?) Also, have you heard of the Cananites (Arabs)? I am quite sure that you know they lived in Palestine long before Jews. No, Abraham was not a Jew for the Torah came to Moses and NOT Abraham. Thus, if you check your facts, you will realize that you repeat rubbish poured into the minds of children. Also, why don't you brush up on imperialism and mercantilism before you come criticizing?

Shuki

04-03-2002, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Thair
Apparently, some people slept through world history class. As far as your problem with the three month visa, can you honestly tell me that if you applied for a citizenship that you would be denied? I can probably apply for student vias and that sort, but the right to live in my country is out of the question. Also, it has been common practice for Israel to import Jews. Take Ethiopia, for example. People from this country are Jews who are treated like dirt in Israel because of skin color. Nevetheless, Israel needed people to populate the land. After all, Israelis are a small bunch. Why do you think they're terrified in Israel even though they have a 2.5 to 1 kill ratio ( 1000 Palestinians, 400 Israelis)? Its because Israeli growth population cannot support those deaths ( By the way, a proof of how Europen Israelis are).

As far as refugee camps, hello anyone there? Negotiations with Israelis and Palestinians have failed because of unwilling resolve on Israeli side not to let Palestinians back into their homes while Russians can come as they please.

As far as Arabs regimes, they are corrupt cowards like their Israeli counterparts. As far as Al Aqsa, Jews have no authentic, unbiased proof that their temple built by Solomon was bulit there. In fact, if you look at the wall, it was preserved by Omar bin Khattab. He said let all of the Abrahamic religions worship there, for the Christians made it a pigstyle. Also, if you examine the history of Jerusalem (assuming that I for the moment will entertain your ridiculous notion), it is full of people buliding over rubble. Do you wish to blame Arabs for building on rubble ( Correct me if I am wrong but the Romans leveled your beloved temple. So now people must reserve the land for 2000 years for Zionists to come and claim?) Also, have you heard of the Cananites (Arabs)? I am quite sure that you know they lived in Palestine long before Jews. No, Abraham was not a Jew for the Torah came to Moses and NOT Abraham. Thus, if you check your facts, you will realize that you repeat rubbish poured into the minds of children. Also, why don't you brush up on imperialism and mercantilism before you come criticizing?

Your ability to express yourself coherently is apparently limited. What you have been saying is that it is unfair for you to be given a three month visa. You have not tried to discuss whether you could become a citizen.

There may be a legitimate question of whether you would be given citizenship, but since you have been arguing about whether you should be given a visa of indefinite length we never got to that.

Israel did encourage Jews to return home. No argument there. We have every right to return to our land. As to the treatment of some of the Jews by others, it is shameful. But it would be false to claim that it was the norm.

You are right Palestianians are averaging about 35 kids per house, as opposed to 3 or 4 per Israeli. The racist in me wants to say that is because 20 of the Palestinian children will go on to become suicide bombers. I am ashamed that I wrote that and embarrassed that my anger allows me to dehumanize people, but there it is.

continued

Shuki

04-03-2002, 02:47 PM

continued from above

And before it slips my mind let us not forget that the Jews who lived in Arab lands were abused by the Arabs that lived there. Are we to forget reparations for those Jews that lost their land there.

The refugee camp problem is not limited to blaming Israel. What happened during 48'-67? Egypt and Jordan didn't run around offering the non-existent Palestinian people land, nor did they encourage refugees to come back.

For that matter a large number left their homes because they believed the rhetoric that the mighty Arab armies would push the Zionists into the sea. War is hell, especially if you end on the wrong side. You fight, you lose, you get nothing and nobody loses sleep over it.

There has been a continuous Jewish presence in Jerusalem and the rest of Israel, or did you forget that. There is unbiased historical proof that the Temple did exist on the Temple mount. Just as there is proof that Muslims have a thing for building their mosques on top of Jewish and christian holy places. Ask the christians in Nazareth, it still happens today.

Abraham was the first Jew. But you won't believe that because it doesn't jibe with what you want. I'll be kind enough not to bash Mohammed and call him a thief of ideas and religion provided you try not to tell me about my religion.

Shuki

04-03-2002, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by Thair

As far as Arabs regimes, they are corrupt cowards like their Israeli counterparts.

Originally posted by Thair
Also, have you heard of the Cananites (Arabs)? I am quite sure that you know they lived in Palestine long before Jews.

If Palestinians want to claim that they are descendants of Cananites then Jews can as well. If you think that there wasn't any intermixing of Jewish and Cananite blood you are fooling yourself.

Just bear in mind that while your ancestors were busy engaging in human sacrifice and all sorts of unholy practices we were running the show in Jewrusalem.

Thair

04-03-2002, 02:59 PM

Name calling gets you nowhere. If what you say is true, it is merely because I am quite young (I will NOT strap explosives to myself and kill Israelis, so don't urinate in your pants). As far as Abraham, he NEVER received the Torah. Judaism started with the TORAH, and even though Christians and Jews love to say Abraham was so and so, they are flat out wrong (Like the claim Hagar was Abraham's concubine). If Abraham was a Jew, what was his book? Are you telling me Abraham had a copy of the Old Testament? Also, look in Westen sources and you can easily find that Mohammad was the greatest man. Also, an illiterate man cannot "steal" ideas found in other religions and cleverly leave all the rubbish they believe in out. Study the life of Mohammad before you incur the wrath of Allah.

Ask the Christians if they love the Israeli army tearing them up and preventing them from celebrating a normal Easter.

Shuki

04-03-2002, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Thair
Name calling gets you nowhere. If what you say is true, it is merely because I am quite young (I will NOT strap explosives to myself and kill Israelis, so don't urinate in your pants). As far as Abraham, he NEVER received the Torah. Judaism started with the TORAH, and even though Christians and Jews love to say Abraham was so and so, they are flat out wrong (Like the claim Hagar was Abraham's concubine). If Abraham was a Jew, what was his book? Are you telling me Abraham had a copy of the Old Testament? Also, look in Westen sources and you can easily find that Mohammad was the greatest man. Also, an illiterate man cannot "steal" ideas found in other religions and cleverly leave all the rubbish they believe in out. Study the life of Mohammad before you incur the wrath of Allah.

Ask the Christians if they love the Israeli army tearing them up and preventing them from celebrating a normal Easter.

You say that you are young, perhaps that is why you don't understand that you cannot define who or when or what I am or when my religion started.

Abraham has always been accepted by Jews as the first Jew. The fact that he did not receive the Torah has nothing to do with anything. There is no requirement for him to have had a "book" to be considered a Jew. Although he did have a social security number.

There is no old testament. That is a title people gave my bible to minimize it. It is there way of trying to claim that they had something better. It is the same thing as you trying to claim that Abraham was not the first Jew.

Perhaps we should return to the old argument that there are no Palestinians, just Arabs in which case the refugees can go back to any Arab country, because they are all the same.

I am glad to hear that you have enough sense not to blow yourself up. Murdering women and children is such a honorable thing to do. suicide bombers rot in hell.

Mohammad was a man, the greatest is debatable. If he was so great why didn't everyone convert to Islam. If he was so great why did he marry little girls, couldn't he find someone his own age.

I have no fear of allah. Jews don't need to threaten people with the fear of their G-d. We have more security then that. Although it does strike me that there are a few Egyptian corpses rotting at the bottom of the Yam Soof that might have strong feelings.

I could care less what the crusading christians think. their ancestors were so very afraid of mine that they began rumors that we killed their lord, and went around spreading all sorts of other ills about Jews.

Well, you didn't kill us then and you won't kill us now. There is an old Jewish joke that says that every Jewish holiday we tell a story about someone who tried to kill us and couldn't. THe telling is always followed by a festive meal.

Well, I think that this will be another one of those stories. SOmeone pass some brisket.

Flame

04-03-2002, 04:02 PM

According to Jewish legend... Abraham recieved torah orally which was passed down until Moses. However, according to Jewish tradition, Adam recieved torah first.

It's a fallacy that the story of "Adam and Eve" is about creation of the first people. WHen you look at the story and are confused... where did their sons find wives if they were the first??? This is because the story is about the mother and father of Judaism (not the first humans on earth)... and spiritually there are many other levels that I have not studied and can not comment on.

Thair

04-03-2002, 08:30 PM

Alright, people here have no respect for religion. If you wish to continue to debate, leave any insinuations and insults about Mohammad or Islam out. If you have a misconception, I'll gladly clarify it. However, I cannot continue to debate since my religion prohibits me from insulting Moses and other Prophets while your religion doesn't prohibit insulting Mohammad and Islam. If I were to continue in such a manner it would be a grave sin on my behalf. Thus, lay off the insults, and I will provide a view that disagrees with your point of view. As far as attacking me personally, I see it only as a minor childish acts. Also, if people want me off, just post it or contact a moderator. That's all, so leave Mohammad and Islam out of it. (One might say that I use Islam as part of my arguments. One must understand Islam is very important to my upbringing. Where did I learn to become a "fanatic?" One can blaim to a small degree racist comments I received in elementary school during the Persian Gulf War, i.e. I am not accepted as an American, rather I am a Saudi Arabian who is Saddam's nephew. Islam doesn't teach racism).

I will post this at other places where I post so people may not miss it. As far as my comment to Ezra, I was offended by the word "crab." Islam is a way of life, so politics is included.

Aaishah was 16ish, the view most Islamic sholars hold, when she married Mohammad. She was engaged prior for three years.

For a historic note, the three tribes in Al Madinah were kicked out except the last tribe. On this tribe, the Torah was applied on them when they became a fifth column for the attacking Meccans.

As for Christian ancestors, I wouldn't venture there. According to Jewish sources, 6,000,000 Jews died ( I simply cannot comprehend the magnitude when Germany had only 0.5 million) at the hands of Hitler. Although he was part Jewish, he is probably classified as a "Christian" at best and atheist or "Jew" at worst.

cerulean

04-03-2002, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Thair

As for Christian ancestors, I wouldn't venture there. According to Jewish sources, 6,000,000 Jews died ( I simply cannot comprehend the magnitude when Germany had only 0.5 million) at the hands of Hitler. Although he was part Jewish, he is probably classified as a "Christian" at best and atheist or "Jew" at worst.

I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at. I don't know exactly how many Jews there were in Germany, but assuming your figures were correct, there were still three million Jews in Poland before WWII and a few thousand afterwards. What do you think happened to these people?

Besides Poland, Jews from the the Baltic States, Eastern Europe, the Balkans, Germany, France, Holland, and other European countries were also subject to extermination. And of course there were also six million non-Jews who also died in the Holocaust. You may wish to take a look at the http://www.nizkor.org/
site.

Hitler's religious beliefs are a subject of controversy, but it appears he was baptized a Catholic. Where do you derive the idea he was Jewish?

Flame

04-03-2002, 11:08 PM

So much for a university education Thair... hitler's regime swept though ALL of Europe.
The concentration camps were mostly in german, poland and austria... but were also scattered thoughout Europe... about 300 I think.

11 million people in all perished.
Hundreds of Jewish villages were emptied and taken by the non-Jews... talk about stolen homes, businesses, and land! Everything was convescated and the Jews themselves ended up paying for the train ride to the camps. Not only that but during hitlers sweep of Europe... the nazis raided every museum they could get their hands on and cleaned them out too.

hilter was raised a catholic.

victot

04-04-2002, 03:03 AM

holocaust denial talk (or holocaust gross exagerated talk) is very weak...

Flame

04-04-2002, 07:32 AM

Thair... you do know that there was a muslim faction of the nazi army... yes? and that arafats uncle the grand mufti worked very closely with hitler? That they planned to kill all the Jews in the region before Israel was re-born? And when that didn't work you do know that several arab nations attacked Israel in less than 24 hours of being a soverign nation?

Thair

04-04-2002, 10:20 AM

Almost everybody knows Hilter's grandfather or somebody was Jewish. What I really met was that it would have been horrible if he were Jewish especially and it should be Christians (not atheist) when he did what he did. If he were an atheist, no one would attack a religion like Catholics were attacked for sitting back. As far as Muslims, first I must talk about Rabbis who gave the Nazis the list of Jews in the area. If they did work with the Nazis, that was pretty stupid because I am sure Hitler would have focused attentions elsewhere if he ever had control of the Middle East.

In my American histroy class two years ago I learned Germay had the largest Jewish population for Western Europe which was .5 million. I just wondered about the other 5.5 million. If your facts that Poland had 3 million Jews are correct, then the figures make sense.

I'm throwing in the towel. Go pat yourselves on the back.I find it to my disadvantage to debate with unseen opponents ( a plethora). Don't get me wrong. I still believe I am as 100% correct as you believe in your facts when I first came (yesterday). AsI explained in a previous post, the risk factor is too high for me, and I feel like I'm talking with stones. All well...

NewsGuy

04-04-2002, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Thair
Almost everybody knows Hilter's grandfather or somebody was Jewish.
By "almost everyone" do you mean gullible Arabs and neo-Nazis? Because everyone else who can actually read and write, knows that is a myth.

Besides, what does all this holocaust denial have to do with Arabs mass murdering Jews in the streets of Israel today?

I'm throwing in the towel. Go pat yourselves on the back.I find it to my disadvantage to debate with unseen opponents ( a plethora).
Right, it's very tough to defend the Palestinian culture of mass murder and genocide of the Israelis, especially when those participating in the debate have access to information that is uncensored by Arab dictatorships.

Ezra

04-04-2002, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by Thair
Aaishah was 16ish, the view most Islamic sholars hold, when she married Mohammad. She was engaged prior for three years.

Oooppss.. No lies please!

Go read your Islamic books! She was 9 yrs old. If you can read arabic, then read "Sirat El-Naby", "Nesaa Al-Nabi", "Al-Sira Al-Nabaweyya"...... And all of them are authenticated Islamic VERY respected references.

Would like me to point the exact pages also? I'd be so happy to do that!

(Sorry for interrupting guys!)

NewsGuy

04-04-2002, 07:23 PM

Whoa...

Pretty darn impressive, Ezra. Encyclopedic knowledge of the Koran.

Ezra

04-04-2002, 11:47 PM

Thanks NewsGuy..

For Thair,

I thought you would like page numbers for the fact that Eisha was 9 years old when Mohammed married her (i.e. had real sex ).. Note that he was already engaged to her 3 years before that (i.e. engagement happened when Eisha was 6 years old )..

References (names are in Arabic):

Al-Seyar wa El-Maghazi by Ibn Issac, page 255
Al-Sirah Al-Nabaweyyah by Ibn Hesham, part 4, page 66
Al-Rod Al-Anf by Al-Sehili, part 4, page 9
Al-Bokhari, part 5 page 71 and part 7 pages 6,7,28
Saheeh Muslim, part 3, pages 578 and 579
Gawame' Al-Sirah, Ibn Hazm, page 27
Tareekh Al-Tabary, part 2 page 212
Asd Al-Ghaba, by Ibn Atheer, part 7, page 189
Al-Esteaab by Al-Qortoby Al-Malki, part 4, page 346
Al-Esabah by Ibn Hagar, part 4, page 348
Hayat Mohammad by Dr. Heikal, page 202
Nesaa Al-Nabi, by Bent Al-Shatee (Aisha Abd El-Rahman), pages 59, 60, 71, 74,77

By the way all these books are original authenticated old Islamic references (except the last two that are relatively contemporary) that are the bases of the Islamic Feqh and Elm El-Sirah..

Thair, these are the only references that I have in my library. I'm sure there are many others but I guess these are enough!

Again, I'm very sorry for interruption..