View Full Version : The Destroying Policy
Mr. Sharon
is a military man
He has no peace agenda
His agenda to kill and receive palestinian retaliation
regardless howmany Israelis has been killed during his era
plus Israeli ecconomic lose
His history only killing ,slaughter ,enjoying blood view since sabra and shatila bloodshed
His culture only war and force unlike late Rabin
Sharon policy will spoil world Israel repution
and creat revenge between Israelis and Palestinians
NewsGuy
03-01-2002, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by fair
Mr. Sharon
is a military man
He has no peace agenda
True, Sharon is a military man, which is exactly why he was elected.
During Barak's time (another former General), as soon as there was a concrete peace plan in its final stages, the Palestinians decided to start a bloody terror campaign. This is what led Israelis to vote for Sharon who promised to take a harder line against terrorism (and rightfully so) than Barak. In essence, the Palestinian terrorists are who caused Sharon to be elected.
I think that it is the Arabs who are desperately trying to prevent peace, because if there is peace, then there is no more Israeli enemy. If there is no Israeli enemy, then the Arab people will start to focus on the brutality and corruption of their own governments.
That's why the Arabs are deperately trying to ruin any chance for peace, because one of the Arab cultural conditions is the need to blame others for their misery, and a scapegoat is needed. If that scapegoat is let free, then Arab society will explode.
ibrodsky
03-04-2002, 05:39 AM
Everyone would like to see peace. But most peace activists are a bit naive. There are very few examples in history of people just agreeing to end a war. Wars end when one side wins and the other loses.
The purpose of Israeli military action, however imperfect, is to defeat the terrorists and rejectionists. The purpose of Palestinian terror is to poison the atmosphere so that there is no chance of a negotiated settlement.
If Israel agreed to withdraw to the '67 borders the Arabs, sensing Israeli defeatism, would simply step up their demands to "return" hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to within Israel. This is simply a scheme to carry the battle to deep inside Israel.
I think Sharon's plan can work: just wear them down with continuing military actions. The only thing that could defeat that plan is the Israeli public running out patience -- which is understandable.
There is never going to be "peace" with Militant Islam. But with the US now committed to wiping militant Islam out, it can be defeated once and for all.
NewsGuy
03-04-2002, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by Ezra
Well said NewsGuy.
Thanks, Ezra.
NewsGuy
03-04-2002, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by ibrodsky
If Israel agreed to withdraw to the '67 borders the Arabs, sensing Israeli defeatism, would simply step up their demands to "return" hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to within Israel. This is simply a scheme to carry the battle to deep inside Israel.
I think Sharon's plan can work: just wear them down with continuing military actions. The only thing that could defeat that plan is the Israeli public running out patience -- which is understandable.
I've heard figures of 3.6 million Palestinians that Arafat wants to resettle in Israel.
But even 100s of tousands of enemies being injected into Israel would be devastating.
Great first post, btw.
Welcome.
Jochaim
03-04-2002, 08:16 AM
as soon as there was a concrete peace plan in its final stages, the Palestinians decided to start a bloody terror campaign
Ah yes the 'concrete peace plan'
This was one of the core myths circulated by the Israeli media. What concrete peace plan? Essentially Arafat and Barak went into their little conference room and discussed nothing. It was a farce on both sides to keep the public happy. And anyway, can you really imagine the Israelis giving up the entire west bank to the palestinians? And yes, that means destroying the existing settlements. It was always a fantasy. And because of this myth about a 'generous peace offer', we come to hear that every single living Arab in the Middle-East is a blood-hungry monster intent on Israel's destruction for no apparent reason.
What is done by Israeli army in the occupied land against palestinians is anti humanity and anti all religions
The random killing of palistinians and atrocities against them
will stir world opinion against Israel
NewsGuy
03-04-2002, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Jochaim
Ah yes the 'concrete peace plan'
This was one of the core myths circulated by the Israeli media. What concrete peace plan? Essentially Arafat and Barak went into their little conference room and discussed nothing. It was a farce on both sides to keep the public happy.
Yes, there was a very specific and concrete plan, that's exactly right. The Israeli media circulated it? Who are you kidding?
In case you've forgotten, the Clinton administration spent nearly 8 years working out this plan and the white house itself announced that Palestinians were the cause of the problem.
This is not the Israeli media reporting this, it is the White House and the people who slaved away for so many years, just to be blown out of the water and humilliated by the Palestinians' terror policy.
What was a actually a farce was anyone thinking even for a moment that Arafat would accept ANY peace plan that would not guarantee the complete and utter destruction of Israel.
not only a farce, but probably more like outright fraud perpetrated by Arafat against the world (and the US taxpayer in particular) who invested tons of time and resources on making believe that the Palestinians culture would even allow for a thing such as peace.
Anyone who would like tos ee the concrete plan which was, IMHO, way too generous and was of course rejected by the Palestinian in favor of mass murder, here it is:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=424
ibrodsky
03-06-2002, 03:28 AM
Originally posted by fair
What is done by Israeli army in the occupied land against palestinians is anti humanity and anti all religions
The random killing of palistinians and atrocities against them
will stir world opinion against Israel
Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza after repeatedly being attacked by Arab armies. What is being done by the Israeli army is in response to Arab aggression and militant Islamic hate.
Random killings? I am tempted to say that Palestinian terrorists take the prize here. But then I remember: Palestinian terrorists actually target Israeli civilians. There is nothing "random" about their attacks.
The "world" does not have a good record regarding fair treatment of Jews. But the civilized world can see that the PA's leader is the pioneer of methods used by Osama bin Laden to massacre thousands of Americans.
Israel tolerates and tries to accommodate Muslims living in Israel. The PA demands all Jews out of the West Bank and Gaza. The "world" can see this by merely looking.
What is done by Sharon in occupied land against Palestinians is the same like What serbian Melosivic has done in Kosovo and Bosnia
America is encouraging Israel to overact against arab the original owners of the land
America supplies Israel with every thing from food to Rocket and fighter
Barak was greedy , He wanted to keep and take some palestinians land
Just to remind you Mr. fair, The US also built the WHOLE Egyptian army! Right?
Or are you claiming that your technology built the F-16 and the M1A1 tanks?!
ibrodsky
03-06-2002, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by fair
What is done by Sharon in occupied land against Palestinians is the same like What serbian Melosivic has done in Kosovo and Bosnia
America is encouraging Israel to overact against arab the original owners of the land
America supplies Israel with every thing from food to Rocket and fighter
Barak was greedy , He wanted to keep and take some palestinians land
This is not true. There was systematic killing of civilians in the former Yugoslavia. In the Israeli-Palestinian conflcit, the side that purposely targets civilians is the Palestinian side.
Israel does not demand that all Muslims leave Israel, but the Palestinians demand all Jews leave the West Bank and Gaza.
The claim that Israel is propped up by US aid is another falsehood. Israel did not receive any US military aid until 1973. So she won multiple wars without it. And the aid the US provided Israel starting in 1973 was actually payment for services rendered; the Arab-Israel conflict was a testing ground for U.S. versus Soviet weapons.
Sorry Fair, but the fact is that tiny Israel has designed and built its own fighter jets in the past -- something no Arab country seems capable of. Though Israel stopped building planes (as far as I know) she continues to modify them to her specifications.
The dispute over "stolen land" is another matter. Personally, I agree there was some unfair displacement of Arabs. However, the Palestinian side has distorted even this, and insists on fighting over land that changed hands more than two biologic generations ago. If you can go back two generations, we can go back 2,000 years and say we were just reclaiming what was ours.
L@mplighterM
03-06-2002, 07:32 PM
fair I think you read the same history books as takeo, justsad and a few others.
McSceptic
03-07-2002, 04:14 AM
Israel isn't propped up by US aid, but it needs it to stay in the game. A bit of a two-edged sword though. Israel was effectively forced to give up making its own aircraft and buy American instead (the US aid has to be mostly spent with US companies). Also when Israel steps out of line, there is a leash to pull it back in - note the US treatment of Israel over the Phalcon system sale to China. If you take Uncle Sam's dollar you pretty much have to dance to his tune.
Re stolen land, the Palestinan title deeds are as good as anything that European Jews have in their case against the Swiss banks. Israel recognises that a final settlement with the Palestinans will involve compensation.
Israel needs to decide what it is going to do with the occupied territories, either:
Incorporate them into Israel proper (demographic and political suicide).
Exterminate and expel the population (international suicide)
Withdraw and allow the creation of a Palestinan state (a slim chance of peace, but I'd be sceptical)
Otherwise it's just more of the same.
ibrodsky
03-07-2002, 05:19 AM
McSceptic,
I don't agree that Israel needs US aid to "stay in the game." When Netanyahu was PM, he challenged the US to end aid to Israel in an address to the US Congress. Really, it's Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Kuwait who can't exist without US aid.
Arguably, the main effect of US aid to Israel is (1) the perception that "fairness" requires giving equal aid to Arab countries, and (2) it gives Americans hostile to Israel and/or Jews another thing to complain about. I know Democrats who openly say they are happy to pay high taxes for wonderful government programs. But mention the Middle East, and they suddenly become indignant over tax dollars that go to "support Israel."
Like it or not, the civilized world is at war with terrorism. The PA is headed by the pioneer of modern terrorism, Yasir Arafat. What Israel has to do first is defeat the PA and its united front with Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, etc.
Once defeated, the Arabs may come to see a peace deal in which they actually get something as attractive. Right now, the only purpose of a "peace" deal is to see if Israel can be pressured to make concessions that will bring the Arabs closer to their goal of destroying Israel.
The Saudi "peace" plan, and particularly the way in which it was revealed, is nothing but a scam. If the Saudis were so interested in a fair settlement then why did they avoid presenting this idea during the heady "Oslo" years? Asking Israel to withdraw to its '67 borders is, in effect, saying that Israel must give the Arabs a better military position in return for something intangible. Given how the PA has broken all of its promises, and Saudi Arabia is one of the most racist countries on earth, why should Israel trust the Saudis -- who have no ability to make other Arab states honor such an agreement.
McSceptic
03-07-2002, 06:09 AM
Yes, curious isn't it that the Saudis produce a plan just when their citizens are in the frame for Sep 9th.
Re military aid, the R&D needed to keep weapon systems up to date is becoming huge. The Europeans are having to partner to keep up with it. For a country of Israel's size it would be impossible to maintain their own technology across the full spectrum of defence equipment. Hence take what they need from the US and develop unique items where they can't be sourced elsewhere.
I belive Egypt is the next biggest beneficary of US defence aid. It's a strategic ally because of the Suez canal. Bit of a headache for the Israelis though as the Egytpian fleet could send the Israeli one to the bottom in minutes.
ibrodsky
03-07-2002, 06:19 AM
I think US aid to Egypt is an insurance policy. Egypt made "peace" with Israel simply to get the Sinai back, and US aid is the only thing that keeps Egypt from ripping up the peace agreement.
I don't know much about the Egyptian fleet -- I don't doubt it is bigger than Israel's. But I would caution anyone who thinks that smaller Israeli forces can be easily wiped out just because they are smaller. The Israelis have added alot of proprietary technology that has repeatedly given them a competitive edge. Plus, they seem much better trained than their Arab opponents in using this stuff.
Sure, Israel can't produce a full spectrum of weapons. But notice that other countries (e.g., India, China, and Turkey) come to Israel to buy the most advanced weapon systems.
Egypt made peace with Israel to avoid the occupation of Cairo!
Have you forgot the 101km point? That's where the Israeli tanks were away from Cairo at the moment a cease fire announcement was signed. The Egyptian army couldn't have ever stood any extra single day in Sinai. Their 3rd Army was surrounded in the "Deresfwar" by the Israeli army. The Egyptian missiles couldn't cover the forces to more than 50km inside Sinai.
ibrodsky
03-07-2002, 07:07 AM
Ezra,
That wasn't "peace." That was a cease-fire agreement. Surely you know the peace deal was made with Sadat years later.
But you raise a good point: Egypt didn't make peace with Israel because it decided that negotiations are better than violence. Egypt made peace with Israel because it decided it couldn't win the Sinai back through military means.
The popular notion that Israel and the Palestinians should stop the violence and go back to the negotiating table is extremely naive. These types of conflicts are never resolved through negotiations. Negotiations come later -- when one side wins and the other tries to get the best deal it can without being utterly destroyed.
There is hope now because Sharon finally realizes that he must defeat the PA and its terrorist front before meaningful negotiations can start. I don't know if Colin Powell is just confused, or if his calls for restraint are merely intended to keep the Israel-Palestine conflict from interfering with other battles.
L@mplighterM
03-07-2002, 07:28 AM
Never mind tittle deeds lets see property tax reciepts. Neighter exists.
Amirica threatened Sadat not to destroy that funy crazy Sharon's pocket west of canal which had been done with the help of America for TV propaganda
Mrs Golda cried and shouted to America asking for instant help at the second day of 73 war
Sadat stoped the war because America was fighting with Israel hand by hand
the problem that you are still dreaming and living with 67 war that had special circumstances and will not repeat again
Egypt now differ than 67 and after 73
Mr Kesinger told Sadat that unless you defeat Israel it will not withdrew and we did
ibrodsky
03-07-2002, 04:20 PM
Fair,
I feel sorry for you. All you hear is propaganda.
Egypt has been soundly beaten by Israel in every war. Tiny Israel has done this while fighting other Arab countries at the same time.
Sharon could have massacred Egypt's soldiers, but did not.
Yes, the US airlifted supplies to Israel after Egypt attacked on Yom Kippur. But what was Egypt fighting with? The Soviet Union armed Egypt to the teeth.
Face it. The Egyptian army is no match for the IDF. That's why Sadat made peace with Israel.
ibrodsky
U cnnfess that unless US Israel can't stand war
to complete yr knowledge US army contributed with Israel in 73 war ( keypood war )
especialy with US Fighters
ibrodsky
03-07-2002, 06:46 PM
I confess that Israel crushed the Arabs in '67.
And I confess that with a surprise attack and massive Soviet support -- including Soviet advisors on the ground -- that the Arabs managed to catch Israel off balance in '73.
So what's your point? The Arabs did a little better with massive Soviet aid and advisors?
The Arabs had ten times as many tanks, far more artillery, more planes, and far more men.
What is striking is not that tiny Israel needed US aid to counter massive Soviet aid, but that the Arabs still couldn't win with a surprise attack and >10:1 advantage in every category.
vBulletin® v3.7.3, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.